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What if everything we thought we knew about JFK's assassination was just the tip of the iceberg? Unravel the hidden layers of one of the most scrutinized events in American history with our latest episode of A Better Life. We start by addressing George's leave of absence and the fantastic feedback from our debut episode. Our special guest, Dom, joins us to examine the contentious choice of LBJ as JFK's running mate, the rumored blackmail by J. Edgar Hoover, and Bobby Kennedy's fierce opposition. We also trace Lee Harvey Oswald's journey from dropout to Marine sharpshooter, delving into potential roles and connections he may have had.
Explore the chilling details captured in Mary Borman's Polaroid photo, which shows the exact moment of the fatal shot and the mysterious "Badge Man." We analyze Oswald's paraffin test results and his adamant denials, proposing he might have been a scapegoat. The eerie similarities between assassination attempts in Miami, Chicago, and the tragic event in Dallas also come under the microscope. This segment shines a spotlight on Abraham Bolden, the first African-American Secret Service agent, who was allegedly silenced after uncovering critical evidence about the Chicago plot and later pardoned by President Biden. We wrap up this chapter by noting Marina Oswald’s attempts to return to the USSR, adding another twist to this tangled narrative.
As we piece together the days leading up to JFK’s fateful Dallas visit, we discuss Johnson’s announcement, Oswald’s movements, and Kennedy's political ambitions for the Texas trip. Our analysis covers everything from the tension between Senator Yarborough, LBJ, and John Connolly to Oswald’s passport pursuits and his mysterious visit to Mexico City. We scrutinize Ruth Payne’s controversial role, Oswald’s activities in New Orleans, and the anti-Castro figures complicating the scenario further. Finally, we reflect on the final preparations for Kennedy’s trip, including Johnson’s suggestion for Jacqueline Kennedy to ride with him, and the finalization of the motorcade route, setting the stage for the tragic events that followed. Don’t miss this intricate exploration of one of history’s most significant and contentious moments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everyone and welcome back to A Better Life.
I guess I abbreviatedeverything to GS.
This is Steve.
Like I said many times, georgehas been on the leave of absence
for a better term, working on aproject and we can't wait to
hear about it when it's up andrunning, which is not too far
away from my understanding.
So we got a great reception onour first podcast and we've
(00:28):
gotten a lot of people come tous and say we want to know more
about the assassination things,and Dom is back today to talk to
us again a little bit aboutwe're going to get a deep dive
into JFK and it may be so deepthat it covers two episodes.
So we're going to go throughthe assassination pretty
(00:50):
methodically, hopefully, andwe're going to talk about some
of the things we've learned inthe more recent times with the
new documents, even thoughthey're not all out as of yet.
But there has been some newrevelations and one of them is
that if Donald Trump wins theelection, he plans to appoint
(01:11):
RFK to do a commission and ableto declassify any documents or
anything he finds about theassassinations of his uncle and
his father.
Right, tom.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yes, judge, and thank you so much for having me back
on right, tom.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, judge, and thank you so much for having me back
on.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
I'm glad to have you here.
I know that this is a veryinteresting topic.
We talk about it at length,many different aspects of it, so
we're going to try to start atthe beginning, and I think the
beginning starts when JFKdecides that he's going to have
(01:46):
LBJ be his running mate.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, it's purported that LBJ stated that one in four
presidents die in office, andhe's a betting man Also.
One of his associates, BobbyBaker, made a prediction stating
that JFK would not last hisfirst term.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Which is pretty interesting.
There's also and I don't knowhow much truth is it maybe you
know that somewhere along theline of that day, that infamous
day when Kennedy himself wentdown to ask LBJ to be vice
president without Bobby'sknowledge, after the convention,
not after he'd been selected asthe candidate that he got a
(02:31):
visit from some people from theFBI at Hoover's behest.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, that's what's written about that Kennedy's sex
life was handed over to LBJ asblackmail.
When Bobby found out that JFKhad selected LBJ, he went
berserk because he knew whattype of a person he was his
reputation, and he went to hisbrother and said yeah, we got to
(02:57):
get rid of this guy, we can'tuse him.
But LBJ had already had adiscussion with JFK and he
showed him the documents andthat was that Sealed the deal.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And Bobby actually, at least as portrayed certainly
in the LBJ movie, with WoodyHouse and paying LBJ that Bobby
went down there and tried totalk him out of accepting the
vice presidency and LBJ laughedin his face.
Obviously yes.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, I haven't seen that film, but I could see LBJ
doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, and I don't think they make a reference to
Hoover's blackmail or whateverit is that was his standard
operating procedure for anyelected official.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
He would immediately put his agents onto you and find
out whatever they could Backthen.
If you were gay, that was a bigdeal.
If you were in the closet, ifyou cheated on your wife, that
was a big deal.
And his agents would compile afile on you.
And then what would happen isyou would come in and meet Mr
Hoover and he would say Judge,it's wonderful that you've been
(04:02):
elected to this office and Ijust want you to know.
This has come across my desk.
And he would slide the fileover to you.
You'd look at it and he'd sayJudge, I want you to know that
you have a friend in the Bureauas long as I'm here, and that
was his way of blackmailingeverybody.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Worked for me.
I'm sure they have lots offiles on me so I don't have to
really worry.
So those are two of the players, right.
Lbj JFK.
Obviously, lee Harvey Oswald isone of the others and it's my
understanding that in 56, hedrops out of high school and he
joins the Marines and where he'strained as a sharpshooter,
strangely enough, right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Right.
And then a few years later, Ithink in 59, he defects to the
Soviet Union to work at anelectronics factory there.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, so what happened was, it seems, that the
military and the CIA got theidea of sending defectors over
to the Soviet Union, and Oswaldseems to be one of a batch of
about 18 or 20 that were sentover there in a very short
period of time.
As a matter of fact, the guywho was on line in front of him
worked for the CIA as well.
The Soviets were on to himimmediately.
(05:17):
They're like what's going onhere?
All of a sudden everybody wantsto defect to us.
It didn't make any sense, butone of the things it seems that
he was involved in because hewas in Minsk actually two things
over there.
One we really didn't know muchabout Soviet society, how things
worked internally over there,simple things, bus lines, how
(05:39):
government worked at a locallevel.
So that was one thing, and itmight have been coincidence.
I don't know.
I typically don't believe incoincidences, but Marina, her
uncle, was a KGB officer, sothere might have been something
going on there trying to get herout of the Soviet Union for
(06:02):
debriefing purposes, becausemaybe she had something to tell
US authorities Right.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So Kennedy gets obviously elected president in
November of 1960.
Correct, we also know thatKennedy's father had gone to the
mob Kano right.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, he was in the 30s.
He was partners with FrankCostello and bootlegging, so he
had a long term history withthem and he knew their influence
in unions and he knew theiravailability of cash.
So he went to them and that'sdocumented in FBI files.
(06:44):
They followed some people thatwere bringing money to the
Kennedy campaign, I believe inWest Virginia.
But yeah, he made a deal withthem to help get his son elected
.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That comes back to haunt him right, because later
on, when Kennedy gets elected,he makes his brother attorney
general.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Right.
So we touched upon that in thefirst episode and it's my
position that the father toldJohn to use Bobby.
Bobby was 34 years old.
He had never tried a case inhis life.
He's definitely not somebodywho's attorney general material.
But I believe what Joe Kennedywanted to do was erase for all
(07:27):
time the connection between theKennedy family and the mob.
And what happened was Bobbywent on.
He was hell bent to puteverybody in jail.
In 1961 or 62, he literally hadCarlos Marcelo, the mob boss of
(07:48):
New Orleans, kidnapped.
There was no due process, therewas nothing.
He was snatched off the streetsof New Orleans, he was put on a
plane and he found himself afew hours later in Guatemala
because that seemed to be whathe put on his passport, what was
put on his passport when he wasa child, when he came in to the
country.
He was Sicilian, born inTunisia and for whatever reason,
(08:11):
they had a Guatemalan passportor whatever.
And I mean you just don't dostuff like that.
If you're going to do a dealwith a mob, you have to honor
that deal.
And they did a 180.
And you don't kidnap a mob boss.
You just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, it can't lead to anything good, right?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No, and he happened to be the mob boss that
controlled he was out ofLouisiana but that his area also
covered a place called DallasTexas.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
As you can see, we're just going through some of the
players and their backgrounds.
Kennedy's elected RFK goesafter the mob as attorney
general In 62,.
Oswald returns from the SovietUnion, now with a wife and a
child, and he moves to Texas.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And he was, even though when he defected quote
unquote and he announced that hewas going to give up secrets,
there's no indication thatanybody wanted to try him for
treason.
And for some strange reason, hewas given a loan by the State
Department.
Unusual for a defector, yeahunusual.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And so then in late 62, in October, he rents this
infamous PO box under his realname in Dallas and maintains the
rental until May of 1963, wherethe infamous rifle is sent to
that he buys on mail order Right.
So also in 1962, then he owessome of the other players it's
(09:38):
John Connolly who was in the carand also injured, shot with
what bullets?
From where?
That seems to be a question,but he was certainly shot In 62,
.
He was elected governor inNovember, as well as of Texas.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And he was extremely tight with LBJ.
They had an organizationnicknamed the Suite 8F Group,
nicknamed the Sweet 8F Group,which they would meet in a hotel
in Texas I guess it was roomSweet 8F People like General
Dynamics, Brown and Root, andthey would figure out how to
(10:19):
carve up a very large militaryindustrial pie.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, that was growing in leaps and bounds after the
Korean War was over, and nowwe're in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
At 62, not so much Definitely after 11, 22, 63, it
skyrocketed.
It was a very good business.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
He's elected governor 63 starts.
He gets sworn in.
He of course is offered andwilling to assist in the planet
of Kennedy's trip to Texas, andhe serves as actually Kennedy's
host as he comes to Texas.
Correct, as governor, he wasthe host, yes.
So another date that seems tobe interesting is that on
(10:54):
February 22nd of 63, ruth Payneanother interesting player in
this menagerie, so to speak,meets the Oswalt's at a party
that was held at the EverettGlover House.
I don't know who that is, butyou may, but I don't.
So some must have somesignificance.
I'm reading it obviously.
And then in March, kleinSporting Goods of Chicago
(11:17):
receives a mail order for $21.45.
And the infamous rifle ispurchased, a C-2750, a World War
II surplus Italian rifle.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Carcano 6.5 millimeter.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So, and that is used by supposedly you alias A Heidel
, yeah, heidel, which is thealias used by Oswald and
delivered to this infamous postoffice box in the rifle Oswald's
serial number.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Let me stop you there .
The rifle is a very interestingthing.
First off, with the post officebox.
What people talk about is thatwould have been an impossibility
because a delivery of a packagethat size the post office box
cannot accommodate it and thepost office would not keep a
package like that.
They would return it right.
So that's number one.
Number two they do have theorder form that was filled out
(12:13):
for the rifle, but that was notthe rifle that was found in the
Texas School Book Depository.
The length is different.
There's also a major problemwith the rifle that was found in
the Texas School BookDepository when you compare it
to the quote-unquote backyardphotographs, and clearly the
(12:33):
sling for the rifle is notpositioned the same way and I
forget which one One's in themiddle of the stock.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
One is in the stock and one's on the back.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Correct Completely different locations.
So now the backyard photos.
I've been doing some researchon that recently and very
interesting.
When Oswald was arrested One ofthe things that the people who
were in the room said he wasshown that photo one of the
(13:04):
photos and he protested.
He said that's my face, butthat's not my body.
And he said, oh, according tothe serial number was not out
for general distribution, thatwas only a government-type thing
(13:30):
.
So when you look at the photo,the right arm has some bumps in
it which Lee Harvey Oswald didnot have.
However, there was a guy namedRoscoe White who's purported to
be the badge man one of thepositions behind the picket
(13:52):
fence firing at Kennedy.
In photos of Roscoe White hedid have those bumps and at the
time of the assassination he hadrecently gained employment as a
Dallas police officer.
And when you look at the photo,it's Mary Borman's photograph.
She was on Elm Street and shetook a Polaroid photo at the
(14:14):
split second when JFK's head ishit.
And years later, whentechnology developed, they were
able to blow up a section of itand you could actually see a guy
with a rifle he just fired.
You see the muzzle flash and onhis shoulder there's a Dallas
police patch.
You can't see it's not thatgood to see Dallas police patch,
(14:35):
but it's the same shape and youalso see where his badge is,
hence the name Badge man andbehind him you see a guy in a
white t-shirt wearing a hard hat.
And it's interesting, 25 yearsafter the assassination there
was a person who claimed to havebeen in front of the picket
(14:55):
fence when the shot went overhis left ear and he told the
interviewers that when he waslooking back there there was a
guy there with a white T-shirtand a hard hat.
That's the thing about thephotograph.
I think that there's a highdegree of probability that
Roscoe White was the personposing with the Mannlicher
(15:16):
Carcano also the pistol and hehad a communist newspaper in his
hand.
I don't believe that was Oswaldand I do believe that they took
Oswald's face and they put itonto the photo.
And Oswald denied that was himright, yeah he said that's my
face, but I didn't take thispicture.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
So the gun didn't match, Oswald denied it and the
best we could tell, whateverOswald said, he seemed to be
telling the truth.
He never really.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's a very good point.
Judge the initial statementcoming out written.
It's not a statement written.
What would you call it?
Evidence sheet talked aboutthat Oswald was given a paraffin
test to his hands and his cheek.
So that test for nitrates andgunpowder.
(16:03):
Now it is physically impossibleto operate a bolt action rifle
and not get the gases on yourcheek.
So what happened was Oswaldtested negative for nitrates on
his face.
He tested negative forgunpowder on his face and on his
(16:23):
hands and he only came uppositive for nitrates on his
hands.
But people speculate that thenitrates he could have picked
them up from handling boxes andpaper at his job that day.
The Dallas police and the localattorney there said that he
tested positive.
Now he didn't.
The test proved that he didn'tfire any gun that day.
(16:46):
So he did.
He protested his innocence.
He said that he was a patsy,which is interesting terminology
because that would indicatethat you're something and that
you feel that you're beingblamed for something that you
didn't do.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, it was interesting that he used that
word and a lot of things andthat they paraded him in front
of everybody and they paradedthe gun in front of everybody.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And another thing about the rifle is it went to
the best fingerprint guy thatthe FBI had.
He couldn't find anything.
So then the rifle then wentback to Dallas and the
undertaker said that two peoplecame into his establishment.
They had a rifle with them andwhen they left he was preparing
(17:35):
the body of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The hands were filled with inkand it took him a long time to
clean up his hands.
So clearly, when they say thatthey had a palm print from Lee
Harvey Oswald, it was done.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
After the fact yeah, after everything.
All right Back to our timelinehere, Before we get too ahead of
ourselves.
Supposedly there were two othertrips that Kennedy were going
to go on where it was possiblethat there was going to be some
assassination attempt.
One was right in Miami.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, one was in Miami and one was in Chicago.
I believe the Miami one wasSeptember, October of 63, and
the Chicago one was the firstweek in November of 63.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So there were.
From my understanding there wasa possible Patsy had been set
up, at least in one of themright.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
In both of them there was a Hispanic gentleman set up
to be the Patsy in Miami andthen a guy named Valley Thomas
Valley, I believe his name wasInteresting.
He had a very common storylineto Oswald.
He was an ex-Marine.
He trained anti-Castro Cubans.
He recently moved to Chicagoand, lo and behold, his place of
(18:51):
work was going to be on theparade route.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, and there was a Secret Service agent right that
discovered it and that wasrecently.
His name was Abraham Bolden,that's right, that's the name,
and he was an African-American.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yes, and he was the first African-American agent on
protection.
He was part of the president'spersonal bodyguard.
What happened was in late Ithink it was actually Halloween
of 63, the Secret Service getnotified from an informant named
Lee that there's going to be anassassination attempt on
(19:27):
President Kennedy while he's inChicago and Abraham Bolden was
aware of that.
That assassination attempt wasthwarted when a cleaning lady in
a hotel and this is like thatClint Eastwood movie where he
was the Secret.
Service agent and this is likethat Clint Eastwood movie where
he was the Secret Service agent.
She goes into the room to cleanand she sees rifles and she
(19:47):
sees a map of the parade routeand she calls the police,
contact the Secret Service.
They were following thesepeople.
It seems, by all accounts, thatthey arrested two of them.
Of course, the arrest recordsare no longer around, but they
did their job and they stoppedthe assassination.
What happened was after Dallasand the creation of the Warren
(20:12):
Committee.
Abraham Bolden wanted to go togive evidence as to that
directly to the war committeeand that's when he was arrested
and they charged him withcounterfeiting.
And while he was in prison theywere giving him psychological
(20:42):
drugs.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
They're trying to make him seem as if he was crazy
.
And he actually was pardoned byPresident Biden Right.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I know it was recent, which is interesting because we
don't know why the presidentdid that or why it took so long.
I mean, he has a wonderful bookand I believe he's still alive.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, I think he is too Okay.
So in March Marina sends aletter to the Soviet embassy in
Washington DC asking to begranted entrance visa back to
the USR, which is interesting.
Oswald is given notice that inthe latter part of March that
he's going to be terminated fromhis job and his job at Jager
Childs Stovall which I don'tknow really what it is it's a
(21:19):
very interesting job becausefrom what some people speculate
is that was a place where theywere looking at the photographs
during the U-2 overflights ofCuba during the Cuban Missile
Crisis.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
So that place had a high-end security clearance.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So they got rid of them right.
So what about in April?
Is the alleged that Oswaldfires a bullet at General Edwin
Walker?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right, that's one of the areas where people are.
Some people said he did it,some people said he didn't.
There one of the things whichis odd there was a photograph
purportedly taken the day of theassassin.
Attempt failed and bulletmissed by several feet of a car
in the driveway.
And during the FBI's control ofthat photograph the license
(22:11):
plate was completely obscured.
It was torn out, so nobodycould tell whose car that was.
I really don't have an opinionas to that.
I don't think that Lee HarveyOswald got up one day and said
oh, I'm going to shoot GeneralWalker.
I believe that from the time hewas a teenager, he was involved
in various aspects of theintelligence network.
(22:34):
A photograph was discovered inthe 80s or 90s, when Oswald was
still a teenager and he was partof David Ferry's Civil Air
Patrol.
And David Ferry had a longcareer as a CIA contract agent.
He was also Carlos Marcello'spilot and an investigator for
(22:58):
him as well.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
He's an interesting man physically, mentally, and
how he was involved in all theseCIA type issues?
After Oswald, does Marinainform the FBI that it was her
husband that fired the shot atthe general, which is
interesting.
Who knows why she did that?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, again, that's an area that there's not really
a lot of speculation on.
I don't know of any books oranything like that written by
researchers on that specificarea.
But what is interesting isthere was an attempt on General
Walker.
There was a shot fired, itmissed.
Now this guy's wife says myhusband did did it and Oswald's
(23:45):
not arrested.
So that should tell yousomething.
Either he couldn't have done itor it was done for a purpose
and somebody told the FBI he'swith us he's not going to get
arrested.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah.
So in April Johnson also tellsreporters that Kennedy's going
to go to Dallas sometime in thesummer and hopes that he's going
to eat breakfast in Fort Worth,lunch in Dallas, san Antonio,
dinner in Houston.
Then the next day later Oswaldleaves Dallas by bus back to New
Orleans seeking betteremployment opportunities
(24:20):
apparently, opportunities,apparently.
So in June President Kennedyand Johnson and Connolly are
together for a meeting in ElPaso where they agree to a
second presidential visit inTexas later that year.
And as we know, texas is animportant state in the election
process.
So they're worried about themidterms as well as they're
(24:42):
worried about the next election.
Right, and now we're still.
In June, kennedy decides toembark on a Texas trip with
three basic calls to raise moneyfor the Democratic Party, a
presidential campaign, his questfor re-election in 64, and
because Kennedy-Johnson ticketbarely won Texas in 1960, which
is quite interesting consideringthey had LBJ and even lost in
(25:04):
Dallas to mend fences he's goingto be leading some of the Texas
Democratic members to befighting politically to kind of
work on that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, there was a serious rift between Senator
Yarborough and LBJ and JohnConnolly.
Yarborough was a liberal andthey seemed to be at loggerheads
.
As a matter of fact, on the dayof the assassination or it
might have been the night before, according to Jacqueline
Kennedy the worst fight that sheever heard her husband in with
(25:37):
LBJ had to do with who was inthe car, and LBJ did not want
John connelly in the car, hewanted ralph yarborough in the
car and yarborough ends up goingwith lbj in the car behind.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I find that very curious at the time, probably
not because it doesn't makesense, and I always find in life
when things don't make senseit's because you don't know all
the facts.
Right, that is true, all right.
In j Oswald applies for a USpassport in New Orleans.
Louisiana intends to depart NewOrleans for a period of time
(26:12):
October to December for thepurposes of traveling as a
tourist for three months and oneyear, whatever that means to
companies like Albania, cuba,china, korea and Vietnam that
are all under communist control,right?
So then in September, jackValenti sends an invitation to
the White House asking thepresident Kennedy would attend a
(26:35):
dinner in Houston in November21st honoring Congressman Albert
Thomas and his decision toretire from Congress.
The invitation is received bythe White House.
In September, oswald has issueda 15-day Mexican tourist card
using the name Lee Harvey Oswald.
So okay, now, september 23rd,ruth Payne there's that name
(27:02):
again, ruth Payne.
To me, ruth Payne is one of themost interesting and
significant figures on what goeson here.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, her sister is acknowledged to be a CIA officer
.
Most researchers feel that shewas a CIA officer and just to
understand the language, youcould be a CIA contract agent,
which means you're hired andpaid to perform a specific task,
or you could be an officer,which means that's your job.
(27:32):
It's a civil service job.
You're going to get a pensionand all that.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Right, where was I?
Ruth Payne drives Marina Oswaldto New Orleans back to her home
in Irvin, texas.
Oswald to New Orleans back toher home in Irvin, texas, late
that night.
Lee Oswald also leaves NewOrleans to travel to Mexico City
, hoping to somehow gainentrance to Cuba, a country
which he traveled that had beenbanned by the United States.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
This is a very interesting part of the whole
story and many significantresearchers feel that the
documentation that still existsin the National Archives has to
do with the Mexico City episode.
Somebody purported to be LeeHarvey Oswald goes to the Cuban
(28:16):
embassy and that individual alsospeaks with the Russian who is
in charge of assassinations inthe Western Hemisphere.
Now Mexico was a friend to theUnited States, so we had the
whole area bugged and videophotography and all that set up.
(28:39):
So what happened wasimmediately after the
assassination.
So what happened wasimmediately after the
assassination.
J Edgar Hoover got a hold of theaudio tape of Oswald in the
Cuban embassy.
So it seems that sevendifferent FBI agents had
dealings with Lee Harvey Oswaldat one time or another.
Hoover ordered all seven tolisten to the tape.
(29:00):
All seven reportedunequivocally that was not Lee
Harvey Oswald and I think it was.
During the decade of the 80s.
A photograph of the personpurported to be Lee Harvey
Oswald was released and it looksabsolutely nothing like him.
It's a short heavyset guy witha blonde crew cut Nothing like
(29:21):
Oswald whatsoever.
So what it seems is that thepeople setting up the
assassination put somebody thereso as to create a direct trail
to both Cuba and Russia, andthat seems to be the purpose of
the whole Mexico City expeditionright.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Because it's interesting, because I don't
know what time period, but itseems like somewhat prior to
this, oswald was anti-communistand there's a video in an
interview of the local newswhere he's handing out flyers
against Cuba, and now he'strying to get in.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
That was in New Orleans and what happened there
was.
He was the only member of aFair Play for Cuba committee.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's what it was.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And he was handing out flyers in support of Cuba
and whatnot.
But when you look at the bottomof the flyer it was stamped 544
, camp Street.
Now in New Orleans there's twostreets that come together, camp
Street and Lafayette, andthere's a building there, so
it's one building with twoseparate entrances and addresses
(30:32):
.
On the Lafayette side that'swhere they had the offices of
Guy Bannister.
Guy Bannister was a former FBIagent and he was involved with
training anti-Castro Cubans atLake Pontchartrain.
One of the people seen in theoffice consistently was David
(30:52):
Ferry.
Lee Harvey Oswald was seen inthe office.
There was another office there,the Anti-Communist League of
the Caribbean, I believe.
So it's certainly a strangeplace for a purported communist
to be handing out these thingswhen he's surrounded by right
wingers.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It's amazing, right, and?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
a researcher claims that when he traced the printing
of that leaflet, it actuallywas from a CIA printing agency.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So in September 30th.
So we're getting closer.
It's 63, lee Oswald purchases abus ticket, alias Mr HO Lee.
The bus leaves Mexico City forLaredo, texas, at 8.30 am on
October 2nd.
So on the 3rd he arrives inDallas, spends the night at
(31:49):
DeWay's MCA.
On the 4th, governor Conleymeets the president at the White
House.
Oswald applies for a job atPadgett yes, I believe that
Padgett Printing but he is nothired because of poor
recommendation from his old job,from the president Stovall.
Robert Stovall of Jager Childsand Stovall Oswald returns to
(32:13):
stay at the Payne's residence inIrving for the weekend.
So obviously they accept allthese invitations.
So on October 15th in 1963,ruth Payne calls the Texas
(32:34):
school depository, bookdepository, and arranges a job
interview for Oswald with thebuilding superintendent Roy
truly, truly interverts allOswald later that day and then
hires him for a dollar and aquarter an hour.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Extremely convenient yeah hour.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Temporary clerk filing customer book orders.
Oswald starts work thefollowing day.
At the same time, payne hadseparated from her husband,
michael, and there is somethingabout Michael's family being
connected to the CIA too, right?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yes, yeah.
Researchers believe verystrongly that he was a CIA
officer and his family is eitherhis family or her family.
I think it's his.
They went back to almost likethe Pilgrims.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
They've been here for like a long time and there was
some relationship between him orhis family and Dulles or
something.
Yes, they had some familiarrelationship.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Or family friends 100 years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Dulles was the head of the CIA before he was removed
by Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I think what was it?
Payne's father was friends withDulles and they would be
together at parties on theselavish estates, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
October 24th, they're working through everything
about the trip and on lateOctober a United States
ambassador of the UN, AdlaiStevenson II, delivers a
contentious speech on the UN dayat the Dallas Memorial
Ornatarium, where he's booed andheckled and spat on.
And spat on After he was stuckin his head with a picket sign.
(34:15):
Dallas police would later feelsimilar demonstrations might
occur when Kennedy visitedDallas.
Seven people, includingStevenson, warned Kennedy
against coming to Dallas, butKennedy ignored their advice.
Somewhere along the line theydecide that Kennedy's visit is
going to be November 21st and22nd.
So they plan out all thesedinners and welcome dinners.
(34:39):
So then in late October therestarts to be these rumors that
Kennedy may not choose LBJ ashis running mate right, it was
far more than a rumor.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
What was happening was—.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Getting questions about it certainly.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
There was actually an investigation going on in
Washington that Johnson wastaking payments.
He was taking bribes, whicheverybody knew that he was, but
this time they were actually.
It was in front of a committeeand, as it were, on November 22,
1963, there was a gentleman whowas giving evidence to that, as
(35:22):
the bullets were flying inDealey Plaza, and then he backed
away from his statement andwhen he was questioned
afterwards he says one thing togo after a vice president is a
completely different thing to goafter a president.
I'm sure that is quite true, andwhat happened was, from all
accounts, the organizer for thecoup against Johnson was Bobby
(35:47):
Kennedy.
We also have that from a veryimportant source.
Evelyn Lincoln was JFK'ssecretary and she said Even from
before he was president.
Yes, she said unequivocallyJohnson was not going to be on
the ticket in 1964.
So more than likely he wasgoing to be in a federal prison.
So you could see the pressurethat was on him to make sure
(36:10):
that events went well in DealeyPlaza.
Also, I don't know if it wastime or Newsweek, but the
assassination occurred on aFriday.
The assassination occurred on aFriday.
Had that not happened, the nextweek's edition front page was
going to be the stuff aboutJohnson.
So it was that close the timingwas that tight because had
(36:46):
Kennedy survived.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Dallas, literally within a week, the beginnings of
the end of Johnson were goingto be laid bare for everybody to
see, that would have beensomething.
Yeah, no, vietnam War.
Yeah.
So early November, gerald Bean,behind a Secret Service agent
in charge for the White Housedetail, telephones Frank
Sorrells who's a Secret Serviceof Dallas District.
He instructs Sorrells to surveythe buildings that the
president is planning to visit,the Dallas leg of the trip.
(37:07):
Two leading contenders were theDallas Luncheon Trademark was
brought by that wanted forGovernor Connolly, and then also
the Williams Building at theState Fairgrounds, which others
favored.
The White House Secret Serviceagent, winston Larson, informed
that he's been assigned to theDallas visit.
So now there's all these SecretService doing the preliminary
(37:30):
stuff ahead of time.
On November 6th the White Housepress secretary, pierre Salinger
, who was a great presssecretary by all accounts they
kept everything from him becausehe had a big mouth, but he was
a great secretary Announces theFirst Lady Kennedy will also
accompany the President on thistrip.
Okay, now the first week ofNovember or the 9th, oswald is
(37:52):
driven by Ruth Payne to take hisdriver's license permit test.
But because there was a specialelection that day, the office
is closed On 2 pm to Oswald'stest drive in his new Mercury
Comet Calente.
I guess that means hot right,hot Comet, two-door hardtop.
(38:13):
So on the 12th there's aspecial advance group that's
sent to all these places inTexas.
So Connolly and O'Donnell, whois Kennedy's closest friend
through everything at Harvardand everything I think he was
the quarterback of the footballteam, right O'Donnell.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Kenny.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
O'Donnell yeah.
Oswald appears in the Albrightparking garage to inquire about
job openings.
Kennedy delivers a speech inNew York City at the AFL-CIO,
then flies to West Palm Beach tospend his last weekend.
White House announces theDallas trademark.
Until that point to specializenews media, kennedy's tight
(38:54):
schedule would not allow enoughtime for a motorcade through
Dallas On the 16th.
Now we're talking the weekbefore the assassination, civic
leaders' statements urgingagainst demonstrations,
incidents that may occur fromKennedy's visit.
Dallas County Judge WL Sturrittsays I am hoping that we won't
(39:17):
have any kind of demonstrationshere.
I have confidence that therewon't be anything of the sort.
That kind of thing can give acity and a county a black eye.
On the 18th, kennedy confidesin his good friend George
Smathers of Florida.
Vice President Johnson wantsFirst Lady Jacqueline Kennedy to
ride in the car with him duringthe upcoming tour in Texas.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The exact motorcade route is then finalized At least
he was gallant with thatwanting Jackie to be out of the
line of fire.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah, maybe Well, everyone, that's the end of Part
1.
Part 2 should be released in acouple of days and I hope you'll
all listen, Thank you.
Hello everyone and welcome back to A Better Life.
I guess I abbreviatedeverything to GS.
This is Steve.
Like I said many times, georgehas been on the leave of absence
for a better term, working on aproject and we can't wait to
hear about it when it's up andrunning, which is not too far
away from my understanding.
So we got a great reception onour first podcast and we've
(00:28):
gotten a lot of people come tous and say we want to know more
about the assassination things,and Dom is back today to talk to
us again a little bit aboutwe're going to get a deep dive
into JFK and it may be so deepthat it covers two episodes.
So we're going to go throughthe assassination pretty
(00:50):
methodically, hopefully, andwe're going to talk about some
of the things we've learned inthe more recent times with the
new documents, even thoughthey're not all out as of yet.
But there has been some newrevelations and one of them is
that if Donald Trump wins theelection, he plans to appoint
(01:11):
RFK to do a commission and ableto declassify any documents or
anything he finds about theassassinations of his uncle and
his father.
Right, tom.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yes, judge, and thank you so much for having me back
on right, tom.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, judge, and thank you so much for having me back
on.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
I'm glad to have you here.
I know that this is a veryinteresting topic.
We talk about it at length,many different aspects of it, so
we're going to try to start atthe beginning, and I think the
beginning starts when JFKdecides that he's going to have
(01:46):
LBJ be his running mate.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, it's purported that LBJ stated that one in four
presidents die in office, andhe's a betting man Also.
One of his associates, BobbyBaker, made a prediction stating
that JFK would not last hisfirst term.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Which is pretty interesting.
There's also and I don't knowhow much truth is it maybe you
know that somewhere along theline of that day, that infamous
day when Kennedy himself wentdown to ask LBJ to be vice
president without Bobby'sknowledge, after the convention,
not after he'd been selected asthe candidate that he got a
(02:31):
visit from some people from theFBI at Hoover's behest.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, that's what's written about that Kennedy's sex
life was handed over to LBJ asblackmail.
When Bobby found out that JFKhad selected LBJ, he went
berserk because he knew whattype of a person he was his
reputation, and he went to hisbrother and said yeah, we got to
(02:57):
get rid of this guy, we can'tuse him.
But LBJ had already had adiscussion with JFK and he
showed him the documents andthat was that Sealed the deal.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And Bobby actually, at least as portrayed certainly
in the LBJ movie, with WoodyHouse and paying LBJ that Bobby
went down there and tried totalk him out of accepting the
vice presidency and LBJ laughedin his face.
Obviously yes.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, I haven't seen that film, but I could see LBJ
doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, and I don't think they make a reference to
Hoover's blackmail or whateverit is that was his standard
operating procedure for anyelected official.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
He would immediately put his agents onto you and find
out whatever they could Backthen.
If you were gay, that was a bigdeal.
If you were in the closet, ifyou cheated on your wife, that
was a big deal.
And his agents would compile afile on you.
And then what would happen isyou would come in and meet Mr
Hoover and he would say Judge,it's wonderful that you've been
(04:02):
elected to this office and Ijust want you to know.
This has come across my desk.
And he would slide the fileover to you.
You'd look at it and he'd sayJudge, I want you to know that
you have a friend in the Bureauas long as I'm here, and that
was his way of blackmailingeverybody.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Worked for me.
I'm sure they have lots offiles on me so I don't have to
really worry.
So those are two of the players, right.
Lbj JFK.
Obviously, lee Harvey Oswald isone of the others and it's my
understanding that in 56, hedrops out of high school and he
joins the Marines and where he'strained as a sharpshooter,
strangely enough, right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Right.
And then a few years later, Ithink in 59, he defects to the
Soviet Union to work at anelectronics factory there.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, so what happened was, it seems, that the
military and the CIA got theidea of sending defectors over
to the Soviet Union, and Oswaldseems to be one of a batch of
about 18 or 20 that were sentover there in a very short
period of time.
As a matter of fact, the guywho was on line in front of him
worked for the CIA as well.
The Soviets were on to himimmediately.
(05:17):
They're like what's going onhere?
All of a sudden everybody wantsto defect to us.
It didn't make any sense, butone of the things it seems that
he was involved in because hewas in Minsk actually two things
over there.
One we really didn't know muchabout Soviet society, how things
worked internally over there,simple things, bus lines, how
(05:39):
government worked at a locallevel.
So that was one thing, and itmight have been coincidence.
I don't know.
I typically don't believe incoincidences, but Marina, her
uncle, was a KGB officer, sothere might have been something
going on there trying to get herout of the Soviet Union for
(06:02):
debriefing purposes, becausemaybe she had something to tell
US authorities Right.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So Kennedy gets obviously elected president in
November of 1960.
Correct, we also know thatKennedy's father had gone to the
mob Kano right.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, he was in the 30s.
He was partners with FrankCostello and bootlegging, so he
had a long term history withthem and he knew their influence
in unions and he knew theiravailability of cash.
So he went to them and that'sdocumented in FBI files.
(06:44):
They followed some people thatwere bringing money to the
Kennedy campaign, I believe inWest Virginia.
But yeah, he made a deal withthem to help get his son elected
.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That comes back to haunt him right, because later
on, when Kennedy gets elected,he makes his brother attorney
general.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Right.
So we touched upon that in thefirst episode and it's my
position that the father toldJohn to use Bobby.
Bobby was 34 years old.
He had never tried a case inhis life.
He's definitely not somebodywho's attorney general material.
But I believe what Joe Kennedywanted to do was erase for all
(07:27):
time the connection between theKennedy family and the mob.
And what happened was Bobbywent on.
He was hell bent to puteverybody in jail.
In 1961 or 62, he literally hadCarlos Marcelo, the mob boss of
(07:48):
New Orleans, kidnapped.
There was no due process, therewas nothing.
He was snatched off the streetsof New Orleans, he was put on a
plane and he found himself afew hours later in Guatemala
because that seemed to be whathe put on his passport, what was
put on his passport when he wasa child, when he came in to the
country.
He was Sicilian, born inTunisia and for whatever reason,
(08:11):
they had a Guatemalan passportor whatever.
And I mean you just don't dostuff like that.
If you're going to do a dealwith a mob, you have to honor
that deal.
And they did a 180.
And you don't kidnap a mob boss.
You just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, it can't lead to anything good, right?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No, and he happened to be the mob boss that
controlled he was out ofLouisiana but that his area also
covered a place called DallasTexas.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
As you can see, we're just going through some of the
players and their backgrounds.
Kennedy's elected RFK goesafter the mob as attorney
general In 62,.
Oswald returns from the SovietUnion, now with a wife and a
child, and he moves to Texas.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And he was, even though when he defected quote
unquote and he announced that hewas going to give up secrets,
there's no indication thatanybody wanted to try him for
treason.
And for some strange reason, hewas given a loan by the State
Department.
Unusual for a defector, yeahunusual.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And so then in late 62, in October, he rents this
infamous PO box under his realname in Dallas and maintains the
rental until May of 1963, wherethe infamous rifle is sent to
that he buys on mail order Right.
So also in 1962, then he owessome of the other players it's
(09:38):
John Connolly who was in the carand also injured, shot with
what bullets?
From where?
That seems to be a question,but he was certainly shot In 62,
.
He was elected governor inNovember, as well as of Texas.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And he was extremely tight with LBJ.
They had an organizationnicknamed the Suite 8F Group,
nicknamed the Sweet 8F Group,which they would meet in a hotel
in Texas I guess it was roomSweet 8F People like General
Dynamics, Brown and Root, andthey would figure out how to
(10:19):
carve up a very large militaryindustrial pie.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, that was growing in leaps and bounds after the
Korean War was over, and nowwe're in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
At 62, not so much Definitely after 11, 22, 63, it
skyrocketed.
It was a very good business.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
He's elected governor 63 starts.
He gets sworn in.
He of course is offered andwilling to assist in the planet
of Kennedy's trip to Texas, andhe serves as actually Kennedy's
host as he comes to Texas.
Correct, as governor, he wasthe host, yes.
So another date that seems tobe interesting is that on
(10:54):
February 22nd of 63, ruth Payneanother interesting player in
this menagerie, so to speak,meets the Oswalt's at a party
that was held at the EverettGlover House.
I don't know who that is, butyou may, but I don't.
So some must have somesignificance.
I'm reading it obviously.
And then in March, kleinSporting Goods of Chicago
(11:17):
receives a mail order for $21.45.
And the infamous rifle ispurchased, a C-2750, a World War
II surplus Italian rifle.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Carcano 6.5 millimeter.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So, and that is used by supposedly you alias A Heidel
, yeah, heidel, which is thealias used by Oswald and
delivered to this infamous postoffice box in the rifle Oswald's
serial number.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Let me stop you there .
The rifle is a very interestingthing.
First off, with the post officebox.
What people talk about is thatwould have been an impossibility
because a delivery of a packagethat size the post office box
cannot accommodate it and thepost office would not keep a
package like that.
They would return it right.
So that's number one.
Number two they do have theorder form that was filled out
(12:13):
for the rifle, but that was notthe rifle that was found in the
Texas School Book Depository.
The length is different.
There's also a major problemwith the rifle that was found in
the Texas School BookDepository when you compare it
to the quote-unquote backyardphotographs, and clearly the
(12:33):
sling for the rifle is notpositioned the same way and I
forget which one One's in themiddle of the stock.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
One is in the stock and one's on the back.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Correct Completely different locations.
So now the backyard photos.
I've been doing some researchon that recently and very
interesting.
When Oswald was arrested One ofthe things that the people who
were in the room said he wasshown that photo one of the
(13:04):
photos and he protested.
He said that's my face, butthat's not my body.
And he said, oh, according tothe serial number was not out
for general distribution, thatwas only a government-type thing
(13:30):
.
So when you look at the photo,the right arm has some bumps in
it which Lee Harvey Oswald didnot have.
However, there was a guy namedRoscoe White who's purported to
be the badge man one of thepositions behind the picket
(13:52):
fence firing at Kennedy.
In photos of Roscoe White hedid have those bumps and at the
time of the assassination he hadrecently gained employment as a
Dallas police officer.
And when you look at the photo,it's Mary Borman's photograph.
She was on Elm Street and shetook a Polaroid photo at the
(14:14):
split second when JFK's head ishit.
And years later, whentechnology developed, they were
able to blow up a section of itand you could actually see a guy
with a rifle he just fired.
You see the muzzle flash and onhis shoulder there's a Dallas
police patch.
You can't see it's not thatgood to see Dallas police patch,
(14:35):
but it's the same shape and youalso see where his badge is,
hence the name Badge man andbehind him you see a guy in a
white t-shirt wearing a hard hat.
And it's interesting, 25 yearsafter the assassination there
was a person who claimed to havebeen in front of the picket
(14:55):
fence when the shot went overhis left ear and he told the
interviewers that when he waslooking back there there was a
guy there with a white T-shirtand a hard hat.
That's the thing about thephotograph.
I think that there's a highdegree of probability that
Roscoe White was the personposing with the Mannlicher
(15:16):
Carcano also the pistol and hehad a communist newspaper in his
hand.
I don't believe that was Oswaldand I do believe that they took
Oswald's face and they put itonto the photo.
And Oswald denied that was himright, yeah he said that's my
face, but I didn't take thispicture.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
So the gun didn't match, Oswald denied it and the
best we could tell, whateverOswald said, he seemed to be
telling the truth.
He never really.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's a very good point.
Judge the initial statementcoming out written.
It's not a statement written.
What would you call it?
Evidence sheet talked aboutthat Oswald was given a paraffin
test to his hands and his cheek.
So that test for nitrates andgunpowder.
(16:03):
Now it is physically impossibleto operate a bolt action rifle
and not get the gases on yourcheek.
So what happened was Oswaldtested negative for nitrates on
his face.
He tested negative forgunpowder on his face and on his
(16:23):
hands and he only came uppositive for nitrates on his
hands.
But people speculate that thenitrates he could have picked
them up from handling boxes andpaper at his job that day.
The Dallas police and the localattorney there said that he
tested positive.
Now he didn't.
The test proved that he didn'tfire any gun that day.
(16:46):
So he did.
He protested his innocence.
He said that he was a patsy,which is interesting terminology
because that would indicatethat you're something and that
you feel that you're beingblamed for something that you
didn't do.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, it was interesting that he used that
word and a lot of things andthat they paraded him in front
of everybody and they paradedthe gun in front of everybody.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And another thing about the rifle is it went to
the best fingerprint guy thatthe FBI had.
He couldn't find anything.
So then the rifle then wentback to Dallas and the
undertaker said that two peoplecame into his establishment.
They had a rifle with them andwhen they left he was preparing
(17:35):
the body of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The hands were filled with inkand it took him a long time to
clean up his hands.
So clearly, when they say thatthey had a palm print from Lee
Harvey Oswald, it was done.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
After the fact yeah, after everything.
All right Back to our timelinehere, Before we get too ahead of
ourselves.
Supposedly there were two othertrips that Kennedy were going
to go on where it was possiblethat there was going to be some
assassination attempt.
One was right in Miami.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, one was in Miami and one was in Chicago.
I believe the Miami one wasSeptember, October of 63, and
the Chicago one was the firstweek in November of 63.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So there were.
From my understanding there wasa possible Patsy had been set
up, at least in one of themright.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
In both of them there was a Hispanic gentleman set up
to be the Patsy in Miami andthen a guy named Valley Thomas
Valley, I believe his name wasInteresting.
He had a very common storylineto Oswald.
He was an ex-Marine.
He trained anti-Castro Cubans.
He recently moved to Chicagoand, lo and behold, his place of
(18:51):
work was going to be on theparade route.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, and there was a Secret Service agent right that
discovered it and that wasrecently.
His name was Abraham Bolden,that's right, that's the name,
and he was an African-American.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yes, and he was the first African-American agent on
protection.
He was part of the president'spersonal bodyguard.
What happened was in late Ithink it was actually Halloween
of 63, the Secret Service getnotified from an informant named
Lee that there's going to be anassassination attempt on
(19:27):
President Kennedy while he's inChicago and Abraham Bolden was
aware of that.
That assassination attempt wasthwarted when a cleaning lady in
a hotel and this is like thatClint Eastwood movie where he
was the Secret.
Service agent and this is likethat Clint Eastwood movie where
he was the Secret Service agent.
She goes into the room to cleanand she sees rifles and she
(19:47):
sees a map of the parade routeand she calls the police,
contact the Secret Service.
They were following thesepeople.
It seems, by all accounts, thatthey arrested two of them.
Of course, the arrest recordsare no longer around, but they
did their job and they stoppedthe assassination.
What happened was after Dallasand the creation of the Warren
(20:12):
Committee.
Abraham Bolden wanted to go togive evidence as to that
directly to the war committeeand that's when he was arrested
and they charged him withcounterfeiting.
And while he was in prison theywere giving him psychological
(20:42):
drugs.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
They're trying to make him seem as if he was crazy
.
And he actually was pardoned byPresident Biden Right.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I know it was recent, which is interesting because we
don't know why the presidentdid that or why it took so long.
I mean, he has a wonderful bookand I believe he's still alive.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, I think he is too Okay.
So in March Marina sends aletter to the Soviet embassy in
Washington DC asking to begranted entrance visa back to
the USR, which is interesting.
Oswald is given notice that inthe latter part of March that
he's going to be terminated fromhis job and his job at Jager
Childs Stovall which I don'tknow really what it is it's a
(21:19):
very interesting job becausefrom what some people speculate
is that was a place where theywere looking at the photographs
during the U-2 overflights ofCuba during the Cuban Missile
Crisis.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
So that place had a high-end security clearance.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So they got rid of them right.
So what about in April?
Is the alleged that Oswaldfires a bullet at General Edwin
Walker?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right, that's one of the areas where people are.
Some people said he did it,some people said he didn't.
There one of the things whichis odd there was a photograph
purportedly taken the day of theassassin.
Attempt failed and bulletmissed by several feet of a car
in the driveway.
And during the FBI's control ofthat photograph the license
(22:11):
plate was completely obscured.
It was torn out, so nobodycould tell whose car that was.
I really don't have an opinionas to that.
I don't think that Lee HarveyOswald got up one day and said
oh, I'm going to shoot GeneralWalker.
I believe that from the time hewas a teenager, he was involved
in various aspects of theintelligence network.
(22:34):
A photograph was discovered inthe 80s or 90s, when Oswald was
still a teenager and he was partof David Ferry's Civil Air
Patrol.
And David Ferry had a longcareer as a CIA contract agent.
He was also Carlos Marcello'spilot and an investigator for
(22:58):
him as well.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
He's an interesting man physically, mentally, and
how he was involved in all theseCIA type issues?
After Oswald, does Marinainform the FBI that it was her
husband that fired the shot atthe general, which is
interesting.
Who knows why she did that?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, again, that's an area that there's not really
a lot of speculation on.
I don't know of any books oranything like that written by
researchers on that specificarea.
But what is interesting isthere was an attempt on General
Walker.
There was a shot fired, itmissed.
Now this guy's wife says myhusband did did it and Oswald's
(23:45):
not arrested.
So that should tell yousomething.
Either he couldn't have done itor it was done for a purpose
and somebody told the FBI he'swith us he's not going to get
arrested.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah.
So in April Johnson also tellsreporters that Kennedy's going
to go to Dallas sometime in thesummer and hopes that he's going
to eat breakfast in Fort Worth,lunch in Dallas, san Antonio,
dinner in Houston.
Then the next day later Oswaldleaves Dallas by bus back to New
Orleans seeking betteremployment opportunities
(24:20):
apparently, opportunities,apparently.
So in June President Kennedyand Johnson and Connolly are
together for a meeting in ElPaso where they agree to a
second presidential visit inTexas later that year.
And as we know, texas is animportant state in the election
process.
So they're worried about themidterms as well as they're
(24:42):
worried about the next election.
Right, and now we're still.
In June, kennedy decides toembark on a Texas trip with
three basic calls to raise moneyfor the Democratic Party, a
presidential campaign, his questfor re-election in 64, and
because Kennedy-Johnson ticketbarely won Texas in 1960, which
is quite interesting consideringthey had LBJ and even lost in
(25:04):
Dallas to mend fences he's goingto be leading some of the Texas
Democratic members to befighting politically to kind of
work on that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, there was a serious rift between Senator
Yarborough and LBJ and JohnConnolly.
Yarborough was a liberal andthey seemed to be at loggerheads
.
As a matter of fact, on the dayof the assassination or it
might have been the night before, according to Jacqueline
Kennedy the worst fight that sheever heard her husband in with
(25:37):
LBJ had to do with who was inthe car, and LBJ did not want
John connelly in the car, hewanted ralph yarborough in the
car and yarborough ends up goingwith lbj in the car behind.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I find that very curious at the time, probably
not because it doesn't makesense, and I always find in life
when things don't make senseit's because you don't know all
the facts.
Right, that is true, all right.
In j Oswald applies for a USpassport in New Orleans.
Louisiana intends to depart NewOrleans for a period of time
(26:12):
October to December for thepurposes of traveling as a
tourist for three months and oneyear, whatever that means to
companies like Albania, cuba,china, korea and Vietnam that
are all under communist control,right?
So then in September, jackValenti sends an invitation to
the White House asking thepresident Kennedy would attend a
(26:35):
dinner in Houston in November21st honoring Congressman Albert
Thomas and his decision toretire from Congress.
The invitation is received bythe White House.
In September, oswald has issueda 15-day Mexican tourist card
using the name Lee Harvey Oswald.
So okay, now, september 23rd,ruth Payne there's that name
(27:02):
again, ruth Payne.
To me, ruth Payne is one of themost interesting and
significant figures on what goeson here.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, her sister is acknowledged to be a CIA officer
.
Most researchers feel that shewas a CIA officer and just to
understand the language, youcould be a CIA contract agent,
which means you're hired andpaid to perform a specific task,
or you could be an officer,which means that's your job.
(27:32):
It's a civil service job.
You're going to get a pensionand all that.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Right, where was I?
Ruth Payne drives Marina Oswaldto New Orleans back to her home
in Irvin, texas.
Oswald to New Orleans back toher home in Irvin, texas, late
that night.
Lee Oswald also leaves NewOrleans to travel to Mexico City
, hoping to somehow gainentrance to Cuba, a country
which he traveled that had beenbanned by the United States.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
This is a very interesting part of the whole
story and many significantresearchers feel that the
documentation that still existsin the National Archives has to
do with the Mexico City episode.
Somebody purported to be LeeHarvey Oswald goes to the Cuban
(28:16):
embassy and that individual alsospeaks with the Russian who is
in charge of assassinations inthe Western Hemisphere.
Now Mexico was a friend to theUnited States, so we had the
whole area bugged and videophotography and all that set up.
(28:39):
So what happened wasimmediately after the
assassination.
So what happened wasimmediately after the
assassination.
J Edgar Hoover got a hold of theaudio tape of Oswald in the
Cuban embassy.
So it seems that sevendifferent FBI agents had
dealings with Lee Harvey Oswaldat one time or another.
Hoover ordered all seven tolisten to the tape.
(29:00):
All seven reportedunequivocally that was not Lee
Harvey Oswald and I think it was.
During the decade of the 80s.
A photograph of the personpurported to be Lee Harvey
Oswald was released and it looksabsolutely nothing like him.
It's a short heavyset guy witha blonde crew cut Nothing like
(29:21):
Oswald whatsoever.
So what it seems is that thepeople setting up the
assassination put somebody thereso as to create a direct trail
to both Cuba and Russia, andthat seems to be the purpose of
the whole Mexico City expeditionright.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Because it's interesting, because I don't
know what time period, but itseems like somewhat prior to
this, oswald was anti-communistand there's a video in an
interview of the local newswhere he's handing out flyers
against Cuba, and now he'strying to get in.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
That was in New Orleans and what happened there
was.
He was the only member of aFair Play for Cuba committee.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's what it was.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And he was handing out flyers in support of Cuba
and whatnot.
But when you look at the bottomof the flyer it was stamped 544
, camp Street.
Now in New Orleans there's twostreets that come together, camp
Street and Lafayette, andthere's a building there, so
it's one building with twoseparate entrances and addresses
(30:32):
.
On the Lafayette side that'swhere they had the offices of
Guy Bannister.
Guy Bannister was a former FBIagent and he was involved with
training anti-Castro Cubans atLake Pontchartrain.
One of the people seen in theoffice consistently was David
(30:52):
Ferry.
Lee Harvey Oswald was seen inthe office.
There was another office there,the Anti-Communist League of
the Caribbean, I believe.
So it's certainly a strangeplace for a purported communist
to be handing out these thingswhen he's surrounded by right
wingers.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It's amazing, right, and?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
a researcher claims that when he traced the printing
of that leaflet, it actuallywas from a CIA printing agency.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So in September 30th.
So we're getting closer.
It's 63, lee Oswald purchases abus ticket, alias Mr HO Lee.
The bus leaves Mexico City forLaredo, texas, at 8.30 am on
October 2nd.
So on the 3rd he arrives inDallas, spends the night at
(31:49):
DeWay's MCA.
On the 4th, governor Conleymeets the president at the White
House.
Oswald applies for a job atPadgett yes, I believe that
Padgett Printing but he is nothired because of poor
recommendation from his old job,from the president Stovall.
Robert Stovall of Jager Childsand Stovall Oswald returns to
(32:13):
stay at the Payne's residence inIrving for the weekend.
So obviously they accept allthese invitations.
So on October 15th in 1963,ruth Payne calls the Texas
(32:34):
school depository, bookdepository, and arranges a job
interview for Oswald with thebuilding superintendent Roy
truly, truly interverts allOswald later that day and then
hires him for a dollar and aquarter an hour.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Extremely convenient yeah hour.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Temporary clerk filing customer book orders.
Oswald starts work thefollowing day.
At the same time, payne hadseparated from her husband,
michael, and there is somethingabout Michael's family being
connected to the CIA too, right?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yes, yeah.
Researchers believe verystrongly that he was a CIA
officer and his family is eitherhis family or her family.
I think it's his.
They went back to almost likethe Pilgrims.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
They've been here for like a long time and there was
some relationship between him orhis family and Dulles or
something.
Yes, they had some familiarrelationship.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Or family friends 100 years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Dulles was the head of the CIA before he was removed
by Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I think what was it?
Payne's father was friends withDulles and they would be
together at parties on theselavish estates, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
October 24th, they're working through everything
about the trip and on lateOctober a United States
ambassador of the UN, AdlaiStevenson II, delivers a
contentious speech on the UN dayat the Dallas Memorial
Ornatarium, where he's booed andheckled and spat on.
And spat on After he was stuckin his head with a picket sign.
(34:15):
Dallas police would later feelsimilar demonstrations might
occur when Kennedy visitedDallas.
Seven people, includingStevenson, warned Kennedy
against coming to Dallas, butKennedy ignored their advice.
Somewhere along the line theydecide that Kennedy's visit is
going to be November 21st and22nd.
So they plan out all thesedinners and welcome dinners.
(34:39):
So then in late October therestarts to be these rumors that
Kennedy may not choose LBJ ashis running mate right, it was
far more than a rumor.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
What was happening was—.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Getting questions about it certainly.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
There was actually an investigation going on in
Washington that Johnson wastaking payments.
He was taking bribes, whicheverybody knew that he was, but
this time they were actually.
It was in front of a committeeand, as it were, on November 22,
1963, there was a gentleman whowas giving evidence to that, as
(35:22):
the bullets were flying inDealey Plaza, and then he backed
away from his statement andwhen he was questioned
afterwards he says one thing togo after a vice president is a
completely different thing to goafter a president.
I'm sure that is quite true, andwhat happened was, from all
accounts, the organizer for thecoup against Johnson was Bobby
(35:47):
Kennedy.
We also have that from a veryimportant source.
Evelyn Lincoln was JFK'ssecretary and she said Even from
before he was president.
Yes, she said unequivocallyJohnson was not going to be on
the ticket in 1964.
So more than likely he wasgoing to be in a federal prison.
So you could see the pressurethat was on him to make sure
(36:10):
that events went well in DealeyPlaza.
Also, I don't know if it wastime or Newsweek, but the
assassination occurred on aFriday.
The assassination occurred on aFriday.
Had that not happened, the nextweek's edition front page was
going to be the stuff aboutJohnson.
So it was that close the timingwas that tight because had
(36:46):
Kennedy survived.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Dallas, literally within a week, the beginnings of
the end of Johnson were goingto be laid bare for everybody to
see, that would have beensomething.
Yeah, no, vietnam War.
Yeah.
So early November, gerald Bean,behind a Secret Service agent
in charge for the White Housedetail, telephones Frank
Sorrells who's a Secret Serviceof Dallas District.
He instructs Sorrells to surveythe buildings that the
president is planning to visit,the Dallas leg of the trip.
(37:07):
Two leading contenders were theDallas Luncheon Trademark was
brought by that wanted forGovernor Connolly, and then also
the Williams Building at theState Fairgrounds, which others
favored.
The White House Secret Serviceagent, winston Larson, informed
that he's been assigned to theDallas visit.
So now there's all these SecretService doing the preliminary
(37:30):
stuff ahead of time.
On November 6th the White Housepress secretary, pierre Salinger
, who was a great presssecretary by all accounts they
kept everything from him becausehe had a big mouth, but he was
a great secretary Announces theFirst Lady Kennedy will also
accompany the President on thistrip.
Okay, now the first week ofNovember or the 9th, oswald is
(37:52):
driven by Ruth Payne to take hisdriver's license permit test.
But because there was a specialelection that day, the office
is closed On 2 pm to Oswald'stest drive in his new Mercury
Comet Calente.
I guess that means hot right,hot Comet, two-door hardtop.
(38:13):
So on the 12th there's aspecial advance group that's
sent to all these places inTexas.
So Connolly and O'Donnell, whois Kennedy's closest friend
through everything at Harvardand everything I think he was
the quarterback of the footballteam, right O'Donnell.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Kenny.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
O'Donnell yeah.
Oswald appears in the Albrightparking garage to inquire about
job openings.
Kennedy delivers a speech inNew York City at the AFL-CIO,
then flies to West Palm Beach tospend his last weekend.
White House announces theDallas trademark.
Until that point to specializenews media, kennedy's tight
(38:54):
schedule would not allow enoughtime for a motorcade through
Dallas On the 16th.
Now we're talking the weekbefore the assassination, civic
leaders' statements urgingagainst demonstrations,
incidents that may occur fromKennedy's visit.
Dallas County Judge WL Sturrittsays I am hoping that we won't
(39:17):
have any kind of demonstrationshere.
I have confidence that therewon't be anything of the sort.
That kind of thing can give acity and a county a black eye.
On the 18th, kennedy confidesin his good friend George
Smathers of Florida.
Vice President Johnson wantsFirst Lady Jacqueline Kennedy to
ride in the car with him duringthe upcoming tour in Texas.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The exact motorcade route is then finalized At least
he was gallant with thatwanting Jackie to be out of the
line of fire.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah, maybe Well, everyone, that's the end of Part
1.
Part 2 should be released in acouple of days and I hope you'll
all listen, Thank you.
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