March 11, 2025 • 23 mins
What if our justice system isn't just at all? Join us as we explore this provocative question in our latest episode on the death penalty, where the complexities of morality, legality, and human impact collide. With Bobbi Joy and her mom, Jane, at the helm, we bring you a nuanced conversation that starts with startling statistics from 2024 and learn how the U.S. compares on the global stage, trailing only behind China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
From the deeply flawed legal system where justice can be elusive, to the emotional and ethical dilemmas faced by those personally affected by violent crimes, we leave no stone unturned. Discover why 200 exonerations since 1973 underscore the grave risk of wrongful executions and question the true fairness of our courts. This episode challenges conventional wisdom and calls for a justice system that is faster and fairer, inviting you to be part of the conversation.
email: boomerandgenxer@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
welcome everyone to today's show.
A boomer and a gen xer walkinto a bar coming to you from
the rabbit run studios, whereyou, as a listener, will
experience some wit and wisdom,some smart assery and a mother
and daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is bobby joy and myco-host is my mom, jane, and for
(00:29):
the next little while we arehere to entertain entertain.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yay, hey, guess what, bob?
So what so?
Uh, I'm still in georgia,you're still in iowa, and the
weather's getting so much nicer.
Uh, here we're going to take alittle vacation, so we're gonna
head over to um tybee island, Ithink, for a little while.
(00:54):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
yeah, that's cool.
Our weather went right back tocrap, so I'm not very pleased.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh no, that's no good , no no boy no hey, uh, our
topic for today.
I think we settled on a topic.
We talked about this in advance, but I think we settled on, uh,
the death penalty.
We're gonna find out who feelswhat way today, today, and who's
(01:24):
for death penalty and who isnot.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Absolutely, and we are going to throw some facts at
you, we're going to talk aboutsome stuff and, yeah, we'll see
where this goes, because I knowthat it's been a hot topic for a
long time now hot topic for along time now.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, and it seems like you know, obviously it's,
it's uh state, right, it's thedecision of the state not, not a
federal thing, it's a decisionof the state.
And um, bobby, I wonder if mystats because I looked up a
bunch of stats too and of courseyou know depending on where you
look and what, what survey youlooked at and what year it was
yeah, the totals could bedifferent, but how many US
(02:11):
states have the death penaltyright now?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
so right now, in the United States, only three states
currently still have the deathpenalty.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh see, that see that's not what I found.
That's not what I found.
What I found was 27 US stateshave the death penalty still on
their books, but only threestill exercise, still exercise
that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I guess I read that wrong.
So yeah, only three stillactually exercise the death
penalty.
I guess I was thinking that youwere asking about actual active
.
Oh, gotcha that we're stilldoing.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I I read that 27 still have it on the books and
um.
So in 2024, 2024, just lastyear, how many people in the us
were executed?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
oh, executed.
Yes, we're executed, gosh.
Just because I'm not sure now,I know, as of january 1st of
2024, there were 2,244 people ondeath row in the united states.
Um, but I'm not sure if I havethe number.
(03:25):
That's actually was executedlast year.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I show now again, however old.
These stats are right, becauseat the end of the year the
states submit their informationand it takes, uh, about three or
four, almost six months toupdate your records from last
year.
But I show that 25 people wereexecuted last year eight.
Okay, that makes sense eight ofthose people were white
(03:52):
caucasian, uh-huh, uh, six wereafrican-american.
And how many of them do youthink were female versus male?
gosh, I know that um now, thisis just last year.
You're saying what just forlast year in the us, out of all
(04:12):
of those um executions that wehad in 2024 and again, you know,
whatever, wherever you get yourstats, they've got to be pretty
close to what we picked up too.
How many of those do you thinkwere female?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well being that females only make up 2% of the
death row population, I've gotto say it's pretty low.
It's got to be like maybe oneZero.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Zero females in 2024 were executed.
All of them were males.
Eight of them were males, eightof them were white caucasian,
uh, six were african-americanand uh yeah, so females are are
not getting executed, but thenthere's there's a lot less
(04:59):
females in the prison systemthan there are males correct.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
True, and there's a lot less in there for violent
crimes or crimes that wouldactually be on the docket for a
death row sentence.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Right, right.
So let me ask you this Topthree countries, top three
countries who have the highestrate of death penalty, of death
by, you know, by executionbecause of crimes.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I'm going to say probably United States is one of
those.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
No, I thought it was.
I thought it was.
It's not the US.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Somewhere in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I'm guessing.
Give me a country, iran, iranis number two, number two.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
All right, I'm on a roll.
Yeah, um, I'm gonna say, uh,columbia oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, is columbia a country?
Oh my gosh, your dad.
No.
Do you want to know who'snumber one?
I'd like to know who's numberone China, china, china and iran
(06:21):
is number two and saudi arabiais number three and actually
that's surprising.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I didn't know china still had the death penalty,
yeah, and you know who's?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
number four us, us, yeah, yeah, the us.
So, um, all in all, 55countries have the death penalty
still.
Now, I'm not saying that I'mnot saying they all exercise it,
because most don't, um, butthey have the opportunity if
(06:55):
they ever chose to.
55 countries is what I found.
Now, that's on the stats that Ifound.
So if that's changed a littlebit, so be it.
But and again, please don'thold us.
We're not, you know we're notin a court of law reading these
stats off, but we are finding.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
We're not professionals, we're not
professionals here.
So okay, so did you know that alot of the states who
participate in the death penaltycases a lot of them will allow
all of the participants whoparticipate in a felony in which
(07:33):
a death occurred?
They can be charged with murderand possibly face the death
penalty, even though they didn'tdirectly kill anyone?
So what that means is, like, um, an unarmed accomplice in a
bank robbery uh, you know who'sthe getaway driver, and somebody
is killed inside that bankduring the robbery, and now that
(07:55):
that driver, who wasn't even inthe bank, is on the hook for a
death penalty case.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So that kind of makes sense, though, to me, because
you know, I don't know you gotfour guys or four gals together
and you know one of them's goingto be the getaway driver and
somebody else is going to be thelookout and the other two are
going to go in.
When you're committing a crime,isn't there some type of
propensity that you could gethurt or you could get killed, or
you may have to kill somebody?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I guess, I don't know , I'm I'm kind of both ways with
it because you know, I guess ifI were to make like a gang of
robbers, um, pretty much themost gullible one would be the
getaway driver.
You know kind of the thedumbest one of the group.
So that person may actuallybelieve that we're just going to
go in there and say, give usyour money, and they're going to
(08:44):
give us the money and nobody'sgoing to get hurt.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
They might actually not know that you know, there's
the chance of somebody dyingwell, I, I suppose, or they
could be the person who's gotthe best navigation system in
their car, right?
I, I mean, I mean, you don'tknow how they pick them.
So yeah, you never know.
Yeah, so, bobby, tell me.
(09:08):
Oh, you had a question for me.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, so what?
I don't know what is yourstance on it, Like how do you
feel, when do you sit and why doyou sit like that on this, this
stance that is such a toughquestion.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Such a tough question , uh, I don't, I mean, I don't
know too many people who couldfire the answer off.
You know, just like that,without thinking through this
for a minute, you know, as achristian, I will say that, um,
you know, there is something,something in the Bible, an eye
for an eye, and there's also oneof the Ten Commandments that
(09:50):
says thou shalt not kill, and Ithink God was pretty serious
about that.
But yet we send a lot of peopleto war, send a lot of people to
war, you know, we send a lot ofyoung men and women, uh, to war
to kill people over things thatthey don't even know why
they're killing people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And well, if I remember my bible classes um
correctly, I believe that godeven sent some people, uh, to
kill themselves, you know, tokill other people.
Of course he did, he had hadhis command.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, he commanded holy wars.
There's no doubt about that.
That's all over the Bible.
But you know what?
You and I aren't God and uh, wedon't have that kind of
authority, and so you know, um,questioning a holy war is
compared to, you know, killingsomebody because they killed.
You know, that's just so toughfor me.
(10:44):
I guess I would have to saythat if somebody was a mass
murderer and we knew for sure,and I think we're going to talk
about this too but they knewabsolutely beyond a shadow of a
doubt, there is no question, youknow, know in anybody's mind
that this person did this, thesekillings, and you know they
(11:09):
were very heinous, I would say.
I would say I would have to gofor the death penalty.
I don't know, I mean I'm veryconflicted with it, for sure,
okay.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Where do you stand?
Well, I'm going to throw outsome stats here that's going to
roll into my stance of it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So you know, as of January 1st of last year, 2,244
people were on death row in theUnited States.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Okay, that seems like a lot, it does.
44 people were on death row inthe United.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
States.
That seems like a lot.
It does, and since the 1970s,1,608 men and women have been
executed in the States.
Okay, now, since 1973, therehave been over 200 people who
had been convicted and sentencedto death that had since been
(12:03):
exonerated and found innocent.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh my gosh, see, I knew you were going to lead to
that, and that's a wholedifferent show for us, right?
Because you could really getdeep into that, but we got to
talk about it here.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
It is yeah, and you know a lot of that is you're
looking at.
So the studies estimate betweenfour and 6% of people
incarcerated in United Statesprisons are actually innocent.
So that means, if 5% ofindividuals are actually
innocent, one in 20 criminalcases result in a wrongful
(12:36):
conviction.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Isn't that crazy.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It is, it is and you know.
You always hear people who arein jail say oh, I'm innocent.
Everybody in jail, in prison'sinnocent you know, they say that
well one in 20, they're notthey're like no, no, really I am
I am, yeah, and you know a lotof them have been wrongfully
convicted due to faultyforensics evidence.
(12:59):
Um, and some big cases were theCentral Park Five, where the
five-.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I remember that case.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, they were wrongfully convicted of
assaulting a white woman inCentral Park.
And then the Oscar Walden rapecase in 1952, it was a coerced
confession.
He served 14 years in prisonbefore being exonerated in 2004.
And there's a lot of reasonsthat a lot of innocent people go
(13:28):
to prison.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I agree with you there, I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Not only faulty sciences, but you're looking at
the police misconductprosecutors' misconduct conducts
.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
it's old forensic sciences that we no longer use,
including, um, you know, the liedetector tests, bite mark
analysis, things like that, andwe will cover that in another
podcast episode, because, yeah,that's my forte, that that's my,
that's my thing, right there I,I know that you followed that
stuff pretty closely becausethat's what you went to school
for and, um, you know, I justhave to say this because I think
it goes along with it and Ithink we'd be remiss if we
(14:08):
didn't say it, uh, during thispodcast is that our judicial
system is broken?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
yeah, it's not a judicial system, it's.
It's a legal system it's alegal system.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's.
It's not because there is nojustice.
There is no justice, and youknow we talk about a speedy
trial, that you have a right toa speedy trial and some of these
folks sit there for 10 yearswaiting for their trial to come
up, and also that you would bejudged by your peers.
(14:41):
Well, come on, you know, firstof all, they're not my peers,
probably and you know.
Secondly, I truly believe, justwatching some of these crime
shows and some of the actualfootage from court cases, that
it depends on how good astoryteller that your attorney
(15:01):
is.
You know, if you go in therewith the facts and I really,
truly believe that the judicialsystem was set up for this
reason or in this way is youbring me the facts.
And I did a lot ofinvestigations when I was
working because it was just partof my job, and you know, one of
the things I always said wasfacts are emotionless.
(15:23):
They are totally emotionless.
And so if you look at them thatway and say, listen, I just
want the fact, just the facts,ma'am, I just want the facts and
let's stop this storytellingstuff, because what you're doing
is you're leading the jury tobelieve a certain way, just
(15:45):
because you, you know you lookbetter today, or you look more
convincing, or you sound moreconvincing, or, you know, maybe
you've been an attorney longerthan the other attorney has been
, and I don't think that's fair.
I really don't.
I don't think you need to tellme a story, tell me the facts.
(16:06):
And if I can't be convincedbased on the facts, then they
walk, and I think that's how itwas supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And some of it does go back to the fact that what
are the facts?
You know I can say that I havea PhD in, you know, forensic
spit marks and you know I canstring this whole story together
about why this person's guiltybecause of this spit mark on him
(16:36):
, and nobody can disprove mebecause there's not a lot of
evidence against it.
And there's not a lot of spitmark experts out there, exactly,
exactly, and at the end of theday, you know the jury, they're
human and in order to go tosleep at night, in order to feel
okay about what they have justdone, whether it is to you know,
(16:59):
say this person is guilty orinnocent, they want to know why,
they want to know the how, thewhy, the where, the when, and so
by weaving that story andhaving that storytelling, it's
really to entice the jury thathey, this is believable, and
(17:19):
you'll go to sleep tonightfeeling okay because you
convicted this person, becauseof the story I told.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I totally agree .
And you know you had mentionedthat there's so many people that
have been falsely accused,falsely convicted, and you know
what a horrible thing to have togo through.
I mean, your heart really goesout to those people and their
families.
And you know, just havingsomebody, when somebody tells me
(17:46):
that you know well, you're aliar, I didn't say that, I mean
my heart just sinks.
When somebody just says, well,jane, I didn't say that, you're
a liar, that would make me sick.
That would make me sick.
And just to think that youwould be accused of an actual
crime and then held accountablewhen you had absolutely nothing
to do with it.
And again, I do go back to youknow the length of time that it
(18:11):
takes to actually make adecision on these folks and I
think it should be very speedy.
And you know it stops this.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I think you have to have time to investigate, don't
get me wrong but on the otherhand, if you really force
somebody's hand into a certainwindow of getting you know, I
absolutely agree that there aresome people who walk this earth
that shouldn't be allowed to.
I believe that there are crimesthat are so heinous that they
should forfeit their right towalk the earth.
I guess, like I said, since1973, 200 people who were
(19:05):
convicted have been exonerated.
So if we can save the oneinnocent person from that
wrongful execution, I believethat it is worth abolishing the
death penalty for all those whohave been sentenced to death by
our legal system.
There's no reason they can'tspend life in prison without
parole versus, you know, puttingthem to death, because it could
(19:28):
save that one innocent personfrom dying when they don't
deserve to.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
You know, a listener who may have lost somebody to a
very heinous crime may say it'sbecause it never happened to you
that you make that comment,that it's easy for you to.
You know, say let's abolish thedeath penalty when it's never
(19:55):
been close to your family.
But right, we have had somecrimes that have been committed
on us.
You know the shooting of mygrandson in the school, and I
will tell you, we came out ofthat with some pretty level
heads and I'm thankful for that.
But a lot of that is because weeducated ourselves on a lot of
(20:16):
stuff and we still continue tolook for protection for our kids
in the schools.
And I'm getting off, I know I'mgetting off beat here, bobby,
but I just had to say that Istill stand with them.
I'm in, I'm conflicted, I stillstand with that.
Again, as a Christian, I wouldsay no, I don't want to see
(20:37):
anybody die, you know.
And somebody could say well, aslong as you don't pull the
lever, you know, you know it'snot really you.
Well, if you can donate, it'syou and um, so I, but I, I, I
hate to even say it, but I'mstill on the fence, still on the
fence yeah, and, and Icompletely understand that, I do
(21:00):
, I do um, so any other?
stats you had to share with us.
Uh, oh, I have one here.
I have a question for you.
Yeah, can uh, the death penaltybe carried out if someone is
pregnant?
Let's say that you are giventhe death penalty and you're a
(21:23):
woman and you get and you arepregnant, and can they go ahead
and carry that out?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
so I don't believe that they can.
I believe that they have towait until the pregnancy is over
in order to carry out the deathpenalty, if I'm correct that is
correct and it's called.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It's called something like preserve, preservation of
the belly, or or something likethat.
I can't remember what the lawis called.
But no, they cannot go aheadand, uh, execute someone, uh, if
they are pregnant.
So, hallelujah, thank goodnessfor that, you know right,
because that's an innocent baby.
(22:05):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Oh my gosh, this was a toughone today, and I'm still now.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm going to be in conflict as I go to bed tonight
all because of you, bobby, allbecause I know it, I know it and
you know, and we've got a fewmore show ideas just off of this
episode, I know absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well, I think that's probably all we have for today.
We'd sure like to hear from ourlisteners on this, because I
tell you what this is a toughone and it can cause some pretty
deep discussions and somepretty hard feelings, I think,
just talking about it.
But we appreciate you joiningus here at the Rabbit Hole
Studio that's where Bobby's atI'm at the Rabbit Run and be
(22:47):
sure to follow us.
I'm asking you, please followus, and we look forward to
spending time with you each week.
Please like us and if you havesome positive feedback or throw
us a topic, throw something atus that you want us to talk
about, because we're alwayslooking for that and we'd sure
like to hear from you.
(23:07):
So drop us a short email atboomer and gen xer at gmailcom.
If you have some hate mail, youknow we're really not interested
because we're not haters, butwe will take, you know.
I mean, we'll take comments, wecan take criticism.
We just don't want the hate, soyou can keep that.
But until next week, I'm JaneBurt and I'm Bobbi Joy and
(23:30):
you're stuck with us.
Peace out Later.
welcome everyone to today's show.
A boomer and a gen xer walkinto a bar coming to you from
the rabbit run studios, whereyou, as a listener, will
experience some wit and wisdom,some smart assery and a mother
and daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is bobby joy and myco-host is my mom, jane, and for
(00:29):
the next little while we arehere to entertain entertain.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yay, hey, guess what, bob?
So what so?
Uh, I'm still in georgia,you're still in iowa, and the
weather's getting so much nicer.
Uh, here we're going to take alittle vacation, so we're gonna
head over to um tybee island, Ithink, for a little while.
(00:54):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
yeah, that's cool.
Our weather went right back tocrap, so I'm not very pleased.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh no, that's no good , no no boy no hey, uh, our
topic for today.
I think we settled on a topic.
We talked about this in advance, but I think we settled on, uh,
the death penalty.
We're gonna find out who feelswhat way today, today, and who's
(01:24):
for death penalty and who isnot.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Absolutely, and we are going to throw some facts at
you, we're going to talk aboutsome stuff and, yeah, we'll see
where this goes, because I knowthat it's been a hot topic for a
long time now hot topic for along time now.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, and it seems like you know, obviously it's,
it's uh state, right, it's thedecision of the state not, not a
federal thing, it's a decisionof the state.
And um, bobby, I wonder if mystats because I looked up a
bunch of stats too and of courseyou know depending on where you
look and what, what survey youlooked at and what year it was
yeah, the totals could bedifferent, but how many US
(02:11):
states have the death penaltyright now?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
so right now, in the United States, only three states
currently still have the deathpenalty.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh see, that see that's not what I found.
That's not what I found.
What I found was 27 US stateshave the death penalty still on
their books, but only threestill exercise, still exercise
that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I guess I read that wrong.
So yeah, only three stillactually exercise the death
penalty.
I guess I was thinking that youwere asking about actual active
.
Oh, gotcha that we're stilldoing.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I I read that 27 still have it on the books and
um.
So in 2024, 2024, just lastyear, how many people in the us
were executed?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
oh, executed.
Yes, we're executed, gosh.
Just because I'm not sure now,I know, as of january 1st of
2024, there were 2,244 people ondeath row in the united states.
Um, but I'm not sure if I havethe number.
(03:25):
That's actually was executedlast year.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I show now again, however old.
These stats are right, becauseat the end of the year the
states submit their informationand it takes, uh, about three or
four, almost six months toupdate your records from last
year.
But I show that 25 people wereexecuted last year eight.
Okay, that makes sense eight ofthose people were white
(03:52):
caucasian, uh-huh, uh, six wereafrican-american.
And how many of them do youthink were female versus male?
gosh, I know that um now, thisis just last year.
You're saying what just forlast year in the us, out of all
(04:12):
of those um executions that wehad in 2024 and again, you know,
whatever, wherever you get yourstats, they've got to be pretty
close to what we picked up too.
How many of those do you thinkwere female?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well being that females only make up 2% of the
death row population, I've gotto say it's pretty low.
It's got to be like maybe oneZero.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Zero females in 2024 were executed.
All of them were males.
Eight of them were males, eightof them were white caucasian,
uh, six were african-americanand uh yeah, so females are are
not getting executed, but thenthere's there's a lot less
(04:59):
females in the prison systemthan there are males correct.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
True, and there's a lot less in there for violent
crimes or crimes that wouldactually be on the docket for a
death row sentence.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Right, right.
So let me ask you this Topthree countries, top three
countries who have the highestrate of death penalty, of death
by, you know, by executionbecause of crimes.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I'm going to say probably United States is one of
those.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
No, I thought it was.
I thought it was.
It's not the US.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Somewhere in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I'm guessing.
Give me a country, iran, iranis number two, number two.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
All right, I'm on a roll.
Yeah, um, I'm gonna say, uh,columbia oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, is columbia a country?
Oh my gosh, your dad.
No.
Do you want to know who'snumber one?
I'd like to know who's numberone China, china, china and iran
(06:21):
is number two and saudi arabiais number three and actually
that's surprising.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I didn't know china still had the death penalty,
yeah, and you know who's?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
number four us, us, yeah, yeah, the us.
So, um, all in all, 55countries have the death penalty
still.
Now, I'm not saying that I'mnot saying they all exercise it,
because most don't, um, butthey have the opportunity if
(06:55):
they ever chose to.
55 countries is what I found.
Now, that's on the stats that Ifound.
So if that's changed a littlebit, so be it.
But and again, please don'thold us.
We're not, you know we're notin a court of law reading these
stats off, but we are finding.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
We're not professionals, we're not
professionals here.
So okay, so did you know that alot of the states who
participate in the death penaltycases a lot of them will allow
all of the participants whoparticipate in a felony in which
(07:33):
a death occurred?
They can be charged with murderand possibly face the death
penalty, even though they didn'tdirectly kill anyone?
So what that means is, like, um, an unarmed accomplice in a
bank robbery uh, you know who'sthe getaway driver, and somebody
is killed inside that bankduring the robbery, and now that
(07:55):
that driver, who wasn't even inthe bank, is on the hook for a
death penalty case.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So that kind of makes sense, though, to me, because
you know, I don't know you gotfour guys or four gals together
and you know one of them's goingto be the getaway driver and
somebody else is going to be thelookout and the other two are
going to go in.
When you're committing a crime,isn't there some type of
propensity that you could gethurt or you could get killed, or
you may have to kill somebody?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I guess, I don't know , I'm I'm kind of both ways with
it because you know, I guess ifI were to make like a gang of
robbers, um, pretty much themost gullible one would be the
getaway driver.
You know kind of the thedumbest one of the group.
So that person may actuallybelieve that we're just going to
go in there and say, give usyour money, and they're going to
(08:44):
give us the money and nobody'sgoing to get hurt.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
They might actually not know that you know, there's
the chance of somebody dyingwell, I, I suppose, or they
could be the person who's gotthe best navigation system in
their car, right?
I, I mean, I mean, you don'tknow how they pick them.
So yeah, you never know.
Yeah, so, bobby, tell me.
(09:08):
Oh, you had a question for me.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, so what?
I don't know what is yourstance on it, Like how do you
feel, when do you sit and why doyou sit like that on this, this
stance that is such a toughquestion.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Such a tough question , uh, I don't, I mean, I don't
know too many people who couldfire the answer off.
You know, just like that,without thinking through this
for a minute, you know, as achristian, I will say that, um,
you know, there is something,something in the Bible, an eye
for an eye, and there's also oneof the Ten Commandments that
(09:50):
says thou shalt not kill, and Ithink God was pretty serious
about that.
But yet we send a lot of peopleto war, send a lot of people to
war, you know, we send a lot ofyoung men and women, uh, to war
to kill people over things thatthey don't even know why
they're killing people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And well, if I remember my bible classes um
correctly, I believe that godeven sent some people, uh, to
kill themselves, you know, tokill other people.
Of course he did, he had hadhis command.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, he commanded holy wars.
There's no doubt about that.
That's all over the Bible.
But you know what?
You and I aren't God and uh, wedon't have that kind of
authority, and so you know, um,questioning a holy war is
compared to, you know, killingsomebody because they killed.
You know, that's just so toughfor me.
(10:44):
I guess I would have to saythat if somebody was a mass
murderer and we knew for sure,and I think we're going to talk
about this too but they knewabsolutely beyond a shadow of a
doubt, there is no question, youknow, know in anybody's mind
that this person did this, thesekillings, and you know they
(11:09):
were very heinous, I would say.
I would say I would have to gofor the death penalty.
I don't know, I mean I'm veryconflicted with it, for sure,
okay.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Where do you stand?
Well, I'm going to throw outsome stats here that's going to
roll into my stance of it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So you know, as of January 1st of last year, 2,244
people were on death row in theUnited States.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Okay, that seems like a lot, it does.
44 people were on death row inthe United.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
States.
That seems like a lot.
It does, and since the 1970s,1,608 men and women have been
executed in the States.
Okay, now, since 1973, therehave been over 200 people who
had been convicted and sentencedto death that had since been
(12:03):
exonerated and found innocent.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh my gosh, see, I knew you were going to lead to
that, and that's a wholedifferent show for us, right?
Because you could really getdeep into that, but we got to
talk about it here.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
It is yeah, and you know a lot of that is you're
looking at.
So the studies estimate betweenfour and 6% of people
incarcerated in United Statesprisons are actually innocent.
So that means, if 5% ofindividuals are actually
innocent, one in 20 criminalcases result in a wrongful
(12:36):
conviction.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Isn't that crazy.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It is, it is and you know.
You always hear people who arein jail say oh, I'm innocent.
Everybody in jail, in prison'sinnocent you know, they say that
well one in 20, they're notthey're like no, no, really I am
I am, yeah, and you know a lotof them have been wrongfully
convicted due to faultyforensics evidence.
(12:59):
Um, and some big cases were theCentral Park Five, where the
five-.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I remember that case.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, they were wrongfully convicted of
assaulting a white woman inCentral Park.
And then the Oscar Walden rapecase in 1952, it was a coerced
confession.
He served 14 years in prisonbefore being exonerated in 2004.
And there's a lot of reasonsthat a lot of innocent people go
(13:28):
to prison.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I agree with you there, I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Not only faulty sciences, but you're looking at
the police misconductprosecutors' misconduct conducts
.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
it's old forensic sciences that we no longer use,
including, um, you know, the liedetector tests, bite mark
analysis, things like that, andwe will cover that in another
podcast episode, because, yeah,that's my forte, that that's my,
that's my thing, right there I,I know that you followed that
stuff pretty closely becausethat's what you went to school
for and, um, you know, I justhave to say this because I think
it goes along with it and Ithink we'd be remiss if we
(14:08):
didn't say it, uh, during thispodcast is that our judicial
system is broken?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
yeah, it's not a judicial system, it's.
It's a legal system it's alegal system.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's.
It's not because there is nojustice.
There is no justice, and youknow we talk about a speedy
trial, that you have a right toa speedy trial and some of these
folks sit there for 10 yearswaiting for their trial to come
up, and also that you would bejudged by your peers.
(14:41):
Well, come on, you know, firstof all, they're not my peers,
probably and you know.
Secondly, I truly believe, justwatching some of these crime
shows and some of the actualfootage from court cases, that
it depends on how good astoryteller that your attorney
(15:01):
is.
You know, if you go in therewith the facts and I really,
truly believe that the judicialsystem was set up for this
reason or in this way is youbring me the facts.
And I did a lot ofinvestigations when I was
working because it was just partof my job, and you know, one of
the things I always said wasfacts are emotionless.
(15:23):
They are totally emotionless.
And so if you look at them thatway and say, listen, I just
want the fact, just the facts,ma'am, I just want the facts and
let's stop this storytellingstuff, because what you're doing
is you're leading the jury tobelieve a certain way, just
(15:45):
because you, you know you lookbetter today, or you look more
convincing, or you sound moreconvincing, or, you know, maybe
you've been an attorney longerthan the other attorney has been
, and I don't think that's fair.
I really don't.
I don't think you need to tellme a story, tell me the facts.
(16:06):
And if I can't be convincedbased on the facts, then they
walk, and I think that's how itwas supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And some of it does go back to the fact that what
are the facts?
You know I can say that I havea PhD in, you know, forensic
spit marks and you know I canstring this whole story together
about why this person's guiltybecause of this spit mark on him
(16:36):
, and nobody can disprove mebecause there's not a lot of
evidence against it.
And there's not a lot of spitmark experts out there, exactly,
exactly, and at the end of theday, you know the jury, they're
human and in order to go tosleep at night, in order to feel
okay about what they have justdone, whether it is to you know,
(16:59):
say this person is guilty orinnocent, they want to know why,
they want to know the how, thewhy, the where, the when, and so
by weaving that story andhaving that storytelling, it's
really to entice the jury thathey, this is believable, and
(17:19):
you'll go to sleep tonightfeeling okay because you
convicted this person, becauseof the story I told.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I totally agree .
And you know you had mentionedthat there's so many people that
have been falsely accused,falsely convicted, and you know
what a horrible thing to have togo through.
I mean, your heart really goesout to those people and their
families.
And you know, just havingsomebody, when somebody tells me
(17:46):
that you know well, you're aliar, I didn't say that, I mean
my heart just sinks.
When somebody just says, well,jane, I didn't say that, you're
a liar, that would make me sick.
That would make me sick.
And just to think that youwould be accused of an actual
crime and then held accountablewhen you had absolutely nothing
to do with it.
And again, I do go back to youknow the length of time that it
(18:11):
takes to actually make adecision on these folks and I
think it should be very speedy.
And you know it stops this.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I think you have to have time to investigate, don't
get me wrong but on the otherhand, if you really force
somebody's hand into a certainwindow of getting you know, I
absolutely agree that there aresome people who walk this earth
that shouldn't be allowed to.
I believe that there are crimesthat are so heinous that they
should forfeit their right towalk the earth.
I guess, like I said, since1973, 200 people who were
(19:05):
convicted have been exonerated.
So if we can save the oneinnocent person from that
wrongful execution, I believethat it is worth abolishing the
death penalty for all those whohave been sentenced to death by
our legal system.
There's no reason they can'tspend life in prison without
parole versus, you know, puttingthem to death, because it could
(19:28):
save that one innocent personfrom dying when they don't
deserve to.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
You know, a listener who may have lost somebody to a
very heinous crime may say it'sbecause it never happened to you
that you make that comment,that it's easy for you to.
You know, say let's abolish thedeath penalty when it's never
(19:55):
been close to your family.
But right, we have had somecrimes that have been committed
on us.
You know the shooting of mygrandson in the school, and I
will tell you, we came out ofthat with some pretty level
heads and I'm thankful for that.
But a lot of that is because weeducated ourselves on a lot of
(20:16):
stuff and we still continue tolook for protection for our kids
in the schools.
And I'm getting off, I know I'mgetting off beat here, bobby,
but I just had to say that Istill stand with them.
I'm in, I'm conflicted, I stillstand with that.
Again, as a Christian, I wouldsay no, I don't want to see
(20:37):
anybody die, you know.
And somebody could say well, aslong as you don't pull the
lever, you know, you know it'snot really you.
Well, if you can donate, it'syou and um, so I, but I, I, I
hate to even say it, but I'mstill on the fence, still on the
fence yeah, and, and Icompletely understand that, I do
(21:00):
, I do um, so any other?
stats you had to share with us.
Uh, oh, I have one here.
I have a question for you.
Yeah, can uh, the death penaltybe carried out if someone is
pregnant?
Let's say that you are giventhe death penalty and you're a
(21:23):
woman and you get and you arepregnant, and can they go ahead
and carry that out?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
so I don't believe that they can.
I believe that they have towait until the pregnancy is over
in order to carry out the deathpenalty, if I'm correct that is
correct and it's called.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It's called something like preserve, preservation of
the belly, or or something likethat.
I can't remember what the lawis called.
But no, they cannot go aheadand, uh, execute someone, uh, if
they are pregnant.
So, hallelujah, thank goodnessfor that, you know right,
because that's an innocent baby.
(22:05):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Oh my gosh, this was a toughone today, and I'm still now.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm going to be in conflict as I go to bed tonight
all because of you, bobby, allbecause I know it, I know it and
you know, and we've got a fewmore show ideas just off of this
episode, I know absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well, I think that's probably all we have for today.
We'd sure like to hear from ourlisteners on this, because I
tell you what this is a toughone and it can cause some pretty
deep discussions and somepretty hard feelings, I think,
just talking about it.
But we appreciate you joiningus here at the Rabbit Hole
Studio that's where Bobby's atI'm at the Rabbit Run and be
(22:47):
sure to follow us.
I'm asking you, please followus, and we look forward to
spending time with you each week.
Please like us and if you havesome positive feedback or throw
us a topic, throw something atus that you want us to talk
about, because we're alwayslooking for that and we'd sure
like to hear from you.
(23:07):
So drop us a short email atboomer and gen xer at gmailcom.
If you have some hate mail, youknow we're really not interested
because we're not haters, butwe will take, you know.
I mean, we'll take comments, wecan take criticism.
We just don't want the hate, soyou can keep that.
But until next week, I'm JaneBurt and I'm Bobbi Joy and
(23:30):
you're stuck with us.
Peace out Later.
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