We start with an outtake of what is discussed before the mic goes live! Gives you an insight as to what Dr. Domain has to deal with!
In this podcast, we dive into the complexities of the First Amendment's free speech protections, exploring what speech is constitutionally protected and what falls outside those boundaries. The discussion includes our views and understanding (which may be skewed because of our demented minds) of commonly misunderstood aspects of freedom of expression in America.
• Freedom of speech protects against government interference, not private entity rules
• Social media platforms and private businesses can limit speech as they're not government entities
• Inciting violence and making threats are not protected forms of speech
• Understanding defamation requires proving actual injury, not just offensive speech
• Hate speech, while morally objectionable to many, is legally protected in the US
• Certain forms of expression including true threats, obscenity, and harassment aren't protected
Check out our Facebook page "A Boomer and a Gen Xer walk into a bar" and email us with topic suggestions at boomerandgenxer@gmail.com. Thank you for your compliments and feedback - we appreciate your continued support!
email: boomerandgenxer@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Because everything's bouncing around.
Listen to her wheeze down there.
My mom used to do that.
Do you remember my mom used to?
When she'd laugh it would be.
Now I do it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's like an old woman Cory does it.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
He does it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It's like an old person thing, I don't know
Anyway.
Alright, so I guess I'm ready.
Let me change my mic here realquick.
Okay, it's like an old personthing, I don't know Anyway.
All right, so I guess.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm ready.
Let me change my mic here realquick.
Okay, okay, okay, and here weare.
Here we are in the Rabbit HoleStudios.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
We're just so happy to be here with Brenda, it's
just so wonderful, and yourbeaver that plays around.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's just so wonderful.
We've got some chocolate saltyballs here to snack on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I love chocolate salty balls.
Did you make them yourself,Bobbi?
I did not.
I had a friend make them.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
have a wonderful recipe for chocolate salty balls
.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I might I like to lick them.
We've got some warm buns.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Warm buns with chocolate, salty balls.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I don't know how they keep a straight face when they
do that, I don't either.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
They're so funny.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Voice check, voice check, voice check.
But, man, I'm ready to go toschool.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Welcome everyone to today's show.
Boomer and a Gen Xer walk intoa bar, coming to you from the
rabbit hole studio, where you,as our listener, will experience
some wit and wisdom, some smartassery and a mother and
daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is jane burt, myco-host is my daughter, bobby
(01:55):
joy, and for the next I don'tknow we'll say 25 minutes or so.
We're here to entertain you, sowe have kind of a what do I
want to say?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Let's say, make over 25 minutes, this one might, this
one might.
Okay, we might just have toinfo dump.
We might disagree.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So, Bobbi, what is the topic for today?
I think it's kind of a seriousone, isn't it?
Well, it could be.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It could be.
You know our amendments areserious, so we want to talk
about the first.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The first amendment, which is free speech, correct,
correct.
So freedom of speech doesn'tmean that individuals can say
whatever they want to saywithout any type of retribution,
but it does mean that we areprotected under some uh you know
, for some of our speech that wehave.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
so let's talk about the white.
What now?
What it's actually?
All speech is protectedtechnically under the first
amendment.
I'm not saying that it givesyou some kind of shield that
nobody's going to punch you inyour face.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What I'm saying is even hate speech is protected
under the first amendment we'regoing to get into this because
you and I are going to have alittle bit of a disagreement
because of anybody who invokesrioting or invokes any type of
violence.
Um is not covered under thefree speech act, so let's talk
about that.
So freedom of speech is theright to articulate your
(03:24):
opinions and ideas withoutinterference, retaliation or
punishment from the government.
Talk to me, bobby, about thiswell, what?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
what would you like to know?
Where do you want to start do?
You want to start at theexclusions, or do you want to
start at the inclusions?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
well, Well, the term speech is kind of interpreted
broadly, wouldn't you say?
It is by a lot of differentpeople, and so, whether it's
spoken or written words, youknow, I think that's really kind
of where the disagreement comesabout when we talk about free
speech.
So what all, though, does theFirst Amendment cover?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Oh, what does it cover?
Okay, well, you have to look atit I do because I was looking
at what it doesn't cover morethan anything, because it covers
your speech.
It covers what you want to sayuh, the press, obviously,
obviously.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And also the right for people to peacefully, uh,
assemble and to petition thegovernment for a redress of
grievances.
And so we have that, right,right, and so the First
Amendment to the US Constitutionprotects that freedom of speech
, religion and the press.
So let's go further.
(04:40):
I'm going to turn it over toyou, because this was one of
your topics that you reallywanted to talk about this time.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, and I will throw in there.
It also protects the separationof church and state, and I say
it protects that because itprotects, you know, the state or
the government from havingfavor to a particular religion
over others.
Okay, so it does protect that,and everybody, well, shouldn't
(05:08):
protect religion in schools andthings like that.
No, no, it's, it's it's toprotect from that.
So let's get that out there.
Um, so, first amendment onething I want to bring up is a
lot of people bring up the firstamendment online, and I'm
talking about social media siteslike Facebook, discord, you
(05:29):
know, instagram, things likethat, even YouTube On YouTube,
it's a big thing.
For First Amendment, that's aproblem because those are
private entities, so saying,well, I have the right to say
what I want, Okay, you do, butif you're using a platform like
Facebook or Twitter or X I guessit's called Instagram, youtube
(05:49):
those are actually privateentities that can limit what you
can and cannot say.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And along with that, your corporations.
The businesses have a right tolimit what you can and cannot
say in the workplace.
Absolutely so, and and so Ithink that that's important to
note that, you know, people maywalk into a business and say,
hey, I have a right to say this.
No, sometimes you don't.
If they have a policy againstthat, then they have the right
(06:17):
to have that policy.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Right when it comes to and again that's, that's also
a private owned type thing.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
That's not a government owned thing and so
yeah, it's not protected likeother things.
You know a phone where they'rerecording something and saying
things, knowing that you knowthere's not a high probability
(06:48):
of them having that retaliationfor it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I think that's a good point.
You can get very ugly whensomeone is not looking you
straight in the face.
You can be very, very bold andvery brave when somebody's not
looking at you in the face.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Or even you know people making fake accounts and
saying what they want to say andciting things online and
they're just really comfortablewith it.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, and you know, to me that's kind of um, how do
I say this?
It's kind of yellow bellies.
You know, those who don't havethe guts to say it to my face.
We'll get online and say it,Absolutely Someone who knows
they're not going to face me outin public, they're not going to
be at a party where I'm at andthey're going to say something,
(07:34):
and to me that's a yellow belly,coward.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And I find a lot of times when people do say and
this has been, you know, overthe last just over a year, has
gotten really bad when people dotype things in comments or say
things online, there's timesthat I've seen those people in
public and it is not what theywere saying online.
Okay, like they backpedaled sohard, I hope that they stretched
(07:58):
before they did it.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
You know, the other thing is you and I mentioned
this earlier is it does not giveyou the right to advocate or to
instigate some type of violence, right?
So that is against the law andpeople don't really understand
that.
I have my right, I have mytruth, I can say what I want to
(08:21):
say.
Well, no, not really, you can't.
You can say whatever you wantas it relates to your thoughts,
but once you start advocatingviolence, that's a whole
different story.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's any kind of violence,
whether it be direct violence orindirect violence, you know,
like yelling fire in a movietheater or saying I have a bomb
on this airplane.
Fire in a movie theater, orsaying I have a bomb on this
airplane, that's kind ofindirect violence, you know,
versus walking up to somebodyand saying, hey, you're fat and
ugly, right, you know type ofthing.
(08:53):
Or hey, you know, those peopleover there said this let's go
fight them, type thing.
That it's two.
It's two different things, butit's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It incites violence, it incites fear and they're
looking to hurt people right andinciting violence isn't
somethingites fear and they'relooking to hurt people.
Right and inciting violenceisn't something like oh
(09:24):
different than to say, let's goto bobby's house and let's bomb
the place and let's set it onfire and let's you know, let's
go after her and let's hurt herreally bad and let's maim her.
That's a whole different storyand so there are different
levels yeah, and there areexceptions to the first
Amendment.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You know there's like you talked about.
The incitement to imminentlawless action is what it's
called Fighting words, right,and that's in here too.
That's a different part.
Fighting words obscenity that'slike sexually explicit things
like that.
That doesn't really fall underthe First Amendment protection.
That doesn't really fall underthe First Amendment protection.
(10:05):
Something called defamation,which a lot of people know the
word but don't know the actuallegal definition.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So tell us what that is.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Do you know it?
I don't have the legaldefinition in front of me, but
the main thing is okay, let'sset up an example.
Two people are talking smackonline.
Up an example.
Two people are talking smackonline.
One person says, hey, uh, kellymakes crappy cakes and she used
her pubic hair to make myfrosting, okay.
So kelly comes on and says no,this is okay, I've been through
(10:39):
this, this is an actual thingthat I saw happen.
I saw go down so kelly, you know, comes on, says you can't say
that because that's defamationof character.
And she, you know it goes backand forth, and back and forth,
and the only way that it's goingto be a defamation of character
is if she has a bakery business, so, and it causes her losses
(11:02):
or it's something else Okay,reputation and things like that.
You know you actually have tonow this is the legal thing you
have to actually have lossesfrom somebody saying something
like this.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So it's not like somebody you know.
They're just bickering onlineand talking smack and she
doesn't even own a bakery.
So who you know?
It's not like you can take awayher bakery Right, people Right.
But a lot of people don't.
They want to say you knowthat's defamation.
It's actually not.
Y'all are just shit talking andneed to quit.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So so I got this defamation description off of
the Iowa State Universitywebsite and it says it's an
intentional and false statementabout an individual that is
publicly communicated in written, which is called libel, or
spoken, which is called slanderform causing injury to the
individual.
Now for that to be defamation,I can't even talk.
(12:03):
I can't even talk Defamation.
That statement must be anassertion of fact rather than
just a mere opinion and capableof being proven false.
So you know, in addition tobeing false, a statement must
identify its victim by naming orreasonably implicating the
person allegedly defamed.
(12:24):
Person allegedly defamed.
So it's not like you could say,oh, that group of people, or
there were two girls who didthis.
Right, you really have to namethose people out and there has
to be injury.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And you know, by definition, the injury would be
physical, financial things likethat right.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
You have to prove that I mean you have to prove
that this is.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
The reason that I lost thirty thousand dollars
this year is because this personsaid this and it was
detrimental.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And it was detrimental.
I have to prove whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, whatever and a lot of people like to use
defamation and oh, you can't saythat, okay.
Well, yeah, actually they can.
What they can't do is theycan't, um, be protected under
the first amendment for thingslike child pornography.
That is not protected, thankGod.
Anything that is called a truethreat.
So someone interprets a seriousexpression as an intent to
(13:19):
commit an act.
So me coming up to you andsaying I'm holding a knife in my
hand, I'm going to stab you,that's not protected under the
First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Right At all.
But here's what really throwsme off on.
That is because if you call thepolice, if you came up to me
and you said, hey, I'm going tostab you and I call the police,
they always say well, unlessthey actually do something and
that's false.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Actually, in the state of Iowa, an assault can
take place with just the threatof words, if you feel in
reasonable fear of being harmed.
But you've heard them say that,but I have yes, so many times.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And it's like what you know?
She just told me she was goingto shoot me, you know, or she
was going to stab me, and that'snot enough.
And so, yeah, I that thatabsolutely you should be
protected.
And and if somebody says youknow something like that, those
are fighting words, those are,those are threatening words.
Um, another part of that, bobby, is harassment.
(14:19):
Correct, correct, okay.
And so the supreme court indavis versus monroe, county, uh,
defined unprotected harassmentas unwelcome conduct based on
the individual's protectedstatus and perceived protected
status that is sufficientlysevere, persistent or pervasive.
And so harassment has to be acontinued thing.
(14:40):
It can't be.
You know, I told Bobby thatshe's at work and I told her she
has to go work on this project,and she says well, I feel like
I'm being harassed, right toobad, so sad and anybody that's
tried to actually get someonefor harassment or stalking knows
how difficult it is, and verydifficult how horrible it is to
(15:00):
go through that now the courtsdo find you know hostile work
environments right.
Those also have to be, uh,proven right, well documented,
well documented, recorded thingslike that yep and so um, and I
played a role in that because Iwas seeing you.
You know I was upper managementwhen I was in my company and
and you know we had to trackthat.
And if somebody ever reportedit you have to investigate,
(15:24):
right, and I don't care if it'sthe first time or what, but if
it's reported a second time,something's going down, right,
you know.
And so you really have to takethose things pretty seriously.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Now let me go back to what you know, I said in the
beginning about the hate speech.
Yeah, so a lot of people thinkthat hate.
Well, first of all, hate speechis not a legal term in the
united states.
Um, so us supreme courtactually has repeatedly ruled
that most of what would qualifyas hate speech in other western
(15:57):
countries is legally protectedspeech under our first amendment
.
What, yeah, yep, there was awhole court case actually in
2017, so this is pretty recent.
It's called Mattal v Tam andsorry if I slaughtered that one,
but the justices unanimouslyreaffirmed that there is
(16:18):
effectively no quote-unquotehate speech exception to the
free speech rights protected bythe First Amendment and that the
US government may notdiscriminate against speech on
the first amendment and that theus government may not
discriminate against speech onthe basis of the speaker's
viewpoint so why are we facingso many people who make a
comment about trump, or thatthey make a comment politically,
(16:39):
or they make a comment aboutthe religion and they say that's
hate speech or that's that's.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You know, that's, that's a hate crime.
It's just like how can that bea?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
defamation thing.
I mean people don't understandthe actual definition of it once
you dig into it.
Now there are some, someexceptions even to that, because
, like, if you yell racial or,you know, sexual slurs towards
somebody while beating the crapout of them, they can prove that
that's a hate crime becauseobviously there was a motivation
(17:08):
there and but there there's nohate speech.
In the united states, um, underthe first amendment there's no
legal what about against raceethnic to ethnic?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
ethnicity this is what happened, which happens
when you get old you can't eventalk well, you're doing the best
with the tongue you got.
Yeah, I guess um gender orsexual orientation or religion
or any other protected status.
What about any type of hatespeech towards that?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
there's no hate speech.
That's what I'm saying.
That there's, it's protected.
So let's look at it from theother way.
Recently we had a very nasty,racially profiling group in Des
Moines that decided to march onthe streets with their
not-so-white caps and signsrecently.
(17:59):
So that's protected.
That's hate speech.
That is hate speech walkingdown the road under anyone
else's definition.
But guess what?
They're protected.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
They're protected so I remember and and this is more
of a religious thing thananything else here, this past
year we had, uh, satanists whodid a demonstration in the iowa
capital, if I remember correctlythat is correct and you weren't
there, were you, because justkeep going, I'll have to
(18:32):
seriously just keep going.
I'm gonna have to go to sleep um, satanists, and you know satan
followers, correct, and uh,there were a lot of people who
said you know they shouldn't bethere.
Well, um, you have the right todo what you're doing, but would
they have let a religious groupdemonstrate inside the capital
(18:55):
too?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
oh, let me stop you there.
They hold bible study everyweek in the capital okay, just
so you know.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Every single week they do they do.
They hold bible study in thecapitol, in one of the the rooms
in the capitol, every singleweek you know, as long as I, I
mean, I think they have theright to do it in this country
and and um, I'm not going to saythat I agree or disagree and we
don't have to agree, we don'thave to disagree with it you
(19:23):
know.
That's.
That's what our freedoms areall about.
Correct is your.
Now, where it becomes a problemis when you start pulling
people aside.
You start humiliating peoplefor their thoughts, their you
know their beliefs any of thatthat's when it becomes a problem
.
I don't care that you have abooth at the fair well, I don't
(19:45):
even care you can, I don't haveto go to that mom, it's still
protected speech.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
You know.
You got the people standingoutside of planned parenthoods
which, by the way, do notperform abortions at planned
parenthoods, just so everybodyknows.
You got people standing in iowain iowa, you refer them on to
other doctors.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
It's not like they're going into a plan.
Let's not act like they don'tadvocate.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Anyways, the people standing outside of there with
their signs saying you're goingto hell, god hates you.
You're a murderer, they'reprotected yeah.
They are protected and they'rehumiliating people that they
don't know their circumstances.
They are hateful, they are,almost to the point, inciting at
(20:30):
a lot of points, you know, andeven places like the west world
baptist church, who demonstratesat veterans funerals.
They're protected.
Do I like it?
Absolutely not, absolutely not,and I'll do everything in my
power to block those people whenthat happens.
But they're protected.
Yeah, we don't have to like it,we don't have to agree with it.
(20:52):
They're protected.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
So let's bring this home just a little bit, because
we've talked about what foundingfathers felt.
Freedom of speech meant,freedom of, you know, uh, press
and and that sort of thing.
But when we're out and aboutand you've got somebody who's in
your face just yelling andscreaming and hatefulness, um,
(21:18):
you know, is that their right tobe spitting in your face?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
and getting that close.
Spitting is a assault.
Spitting is an assault.
It is, it is.
I'm glad you recognize that.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
But I mean, I guess I feel like you know I think
about, because in the state ofIowa they do still have the
pride event.
Okay, correct.
And so at the pride eventyou'll always see someone from
the churches or evangelizing.
Correct, and that's okay withme.
You don't like it?
(21:51):
Keep moving, keep moving.
You don't have to stop.
But instead it becomes an allout almost brawl between these
people.
The other thing is, you dosometimes see the churches, or
sometimes the religious groupswho will stand in front of an
(22:11):
abortion clinic.
Right, and I'll be very honestwith you, I am very pro-life.
If I'm going to choose onebetween life and death, it's
going to be life pro-birth.
Okay, pro-birth, um, but do Ithink that people have the right
(22:33):
to stand out there and say whatthey want to say?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think they do, and if you don't like it, keep
moving well, I mean and that'sthe conundrum because I'm I'm
pro, mind my own damn businesswhen it comes to those things,
and so yeah but isn't mindingyour own business, walking on
and saying, hey, this well, yeah, but I'm offended me it sucks.
(22:57):
It sucks that you know theypeople, certain people, do have
the right to hold that space,just as anyone else would.
It sucks.
It sucks for a lot of groups, alot of people, things like that
.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
But the bottom line is it's protected, it's
protected, it's protected andyou have the right to say on
either side, you have the rightto say what you want to say.
Now, if I don't like it, I'mgoing to keep moving, right, and
I think that the problem that Isee myself is people take all
of this so personally and youknow, if you deny what I am
(23:35):
trying to tell you or what theyare trying to tell you, so be it
.
Right, so be it.
I'm not going to fight you overthat.
And there's just so much angerand so when you, you think about
you know what's going on,especially in the political
arena right now, I just see somuch hate and so much discord
right now and you just kind ofwant to go.
(23:55):
First of all, they don't knowyour names, uh, and they don't
care that much about you, right,and so you know, just live your
life and move on, because infour years we're going to be
right back at this, but I meanthat's politics.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I mean they, they use the people to back them and to
fight for them.
And to you know things likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So what would be your advice as it relates to free
speech?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
what would be your advice as it relates to free
speech?
There's going to be a lot ofpeople out there that, from your
opinion, should apologize totrees for the oxygen they waste,
but they're allowed to wastethat oxygen, right?
I mean, you know, keep yourhands to yourself, protect
yourself at all times, and uh,yeah, that's about all I got.
(24:43):
Don't start it, but you betterend it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, I think it's really interesting because you
know, I mentioned it before if Idon't have a dog in the fight,
I'm really not going to getinvolved in um, you know, do I
have a responsibility to try tobe reasonable with people?
Yeah, absolutely.
I want to be kind to people, Iwant to be reasonable to people.
When somebody comes back at meand they're in my face and
(25:10):
whatever, I got an opportunityto just keep walking.
I don't have to stay there andlisten to that crap.
I can just keep walking andthey can keep walking too.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It's all about choices.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Life's all about choices.
It's all life's all about it isabsolutely it's your own
adventure book so I think thatthat's probably all we have to
say today, unless you hadsomething else, bob I don't
think so.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I think that that's all the serious insanity we have
for today.
And uh, listen, we really thankyou guys for joining us every
week.
If you have any suggestions,any questions, any constructive
criticism, we do have our email,which is boomerangenexer at
gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
And I just want to say something real quickly.
Bobbi, we got some really goodcompliments this week.
We did, and I was so happy tohear from our listeners and they
enjoy what we're saying.
They enjoy what we're hearing.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
They may not agree with us, and that's okay and
they enjoy hearing us argue, sothat's always good.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
They do enjoy that, and and so, um, I just want to
tell them thank you for reachingout to us and saying hey, you
know, I really like that topic,or I really liked how you two
played off of each other, and Ireally liked the banter between
the two of you and we just werethankful for it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, and we're not going anywhere.
We got plenty of show ideas andwe would love plenty more.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, head on over to Facebook.
A Boomer and a Gen Xer walkinto a bar.
The official podcast page sayhi, like us, share us whatever
you want to do, but keeplistening and we really
appreciate you.
So until next week.
I'm Bobby Joy and I'm Jane Burtand you're stuck with us.
Peace out Later.
Because everything's bouncing around.
Listen to her wheeze down there.
My mom used to do that.
Do you remember my mom used to?
When she'd laugh it would be.
Now I do it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's like an old woman Cory does it.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
He does it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It's like an old person thing, I don't know
Anyway.
Alright, so I guess I'm ready.
Let me change my mic here realquick.
Okay, it's like an old personthing, I don't know Anyway.
All right, so I guess.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm ready.
Let me change my mic here realquick.
Okay, okay, okay, and here weare.
Here we are in the Rabbit HoleStudios.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
We're just so happy to be here with Brenda, it's
just so wonderful, and yourbeaver that plays around.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's just so wonderful.
We've got some chocolate saltyballs here to snack on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I love chocolate salty balls.
Did you make them yourself,Bobbi?
I did not.
I had a friend make them.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
have a wonderful recipe for chocolate salty balls
.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I might I like to lick them.
We've got some warm buns.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Warm buns with chocolate, salty balls.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I don't know how they keep a straight face when they
do that, I don't either.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
They're so funny.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Voice check, voice check, voice check.
But, man, I'm ready to go toschool.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Welcome everyone to today's show.
Boomer and a Gen Xer walk intoa bar, coming to you from the
rabbit hole studio, where you,as our listener, will experience
some wit and wisdom, some smartassery and a mother and
daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is jane burt, myco-host is my daughter, bobby
(01:55):
joy, and for the next I don'tknow we'll say 25 minutes or so.
We're here to entertain you, sowe have kind of a what do I
want to say?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Let's say, make over 25 minutes, this one might, this
one might.
Okay, we might just have toinfo dump.
We might disagree.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So, Bobbi, what is the topic for today?
I think it's kind of a seriousone, isn't it?
Well, it could be.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It could be.
You know our amendments areserious, so we want to talk
about the first.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The first amendment, which is free speech, correct,
correct.
So freedom of speech doesn'tmean that individuals can say
whatever they want to saywithout any type of retribution,
but it does mean that we areprotected under some uh you know
, for some of our speech that wehave.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
so let's talk about the white.
What now?
What it's actually?
All speech is protectedtechnically under the first
amendment.
I'm not saying that it givesyou some kind of shield that
nobody's going to punch you inyour face.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What I'm saying is even hate speech is protected
under the first amendment we'regoing to get into this because
you and I are going to have alittle bit of a disagreement
because of anybody who invokesrioting or invokes any type of
violence.
Um is not covered under thefree speech act, so let's talk
about that.
So freedom of speech is theright to articulate your
(03:24):
opinions and ideas withoutinterference, retaliation or
punishment from the government.
Talk to me, bobby, about thiswell, what?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
what would you like to know?
Where do you want to start do?
You want to start at theexclusions, or do you want to
start at the inclusions?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
well, Well, the term speech is kind of interpreted
broadly, wouldn't you say?
It is by a lot of differentpeople, and so, whether it's
spoken or written words, youknow, I think that's really kind
of where the disagreement comesabout when we talk about free
speech.
So what all, though, does theFirst Amendment cover?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Oh, what does it cover?
Okay, well, you have to look atit I do because I was looking
at what it doesn't cover morethan anything, because it covers
your speech.
It covers what you want to sayuh, the press, obviously,
obviously.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And also the right for people to peacefully, uh,
assemble and to petition thegovernment for a redress of
grievances.
And so we have that, right,right, and so the First
Amendment to the US Constitutionprotects that freedom of speech
, religion and the press.
So let's go further.
(04:40):
I'm going to turn it over toyou, because this was one of
your topics that you reallywanted to talk about this time.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, and I will throw in there.
It also protects the separationof church and state, and I say
it protects that because itprotects, you know, the state or
the government from havingfavor to a particular religion
over others.
Okay, so it does protect that,and everybody, well, shouldn't
(05:08):
protect religion in schools andthings like that.
No, no, it's, it's it's toprotect from that.
So let's get that out there.
Um, so, first amendment onething I want to bring up is a
lot of people bring up the firstamendment online, and I'm
talking about social media siteslike Facebook, discord, you
(05:29):
know, instagram, things likethat, even YouTube On YouTube,
it's a big thing.
For First Amendment, that's aproblem because those are
private entities, so saying,well, I have the right to say
what I want, Okay, you do, butif you're using a platform like
Facebook or Twitter or X I guessit's called Instagram, youtube
(05:49):
those are actually privateentities that can limit what you
can and cannot say.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And along with that, your corporations.
The businesses have a right tolimit what you can and cannot
say in the workplace.
Absolutely so, and and so Ithink that that's important to
note that, you know, people maywalk into a business and say,
hey, I have a right to say this.
No, sometimes you don't.
If they have a policy againstthat, then they have the right
(06:17):
to have that policy.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Right when it comes to and again that's, that's also
a private owned type thing.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
That's not a government owned thing and so
yeah, it's not protected likeother things.
You know a phone where they'rerecording something and saying
things, knowing that you knowthere's not a high probability
(06:48):
of them having that retaliationfor it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I think that's a good point.
You can get very ugly whensomeone is not looking you
straight in the face.
You can be very, very bold andvery brave when somebody's not
looking at you in the face.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Or even you know people making fake accounts and
saying what they want to say andciting things online and
they're just really comfortablewith it.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, and you know, to me that's kind of um, how do
I say this?
It's kind of yellow bellies.
You know, those who don't havethe guts to say it to my face.
We'll get online and say it,Absolutely Someone who knows
they're not going to face me outin public, they're not going to
be at a party where I'm at andthey're going to say something,
(07:34):
and to me that's a yellow belly,coward.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And I find a lot of times when people do say and
this has been, you know, overthe last just over a year, has
gotten really bad when people dotype things in comments or say
things online, there's timesthat I've seen those people in
public and it is not what theywere saying online.
Okay, like they backpedaled sohard, I hope that they stretched
(07:58):
before they did it.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
You know, the other thing is you and I mentioned
this earlier is it does not giveyou the right to advocate or to
instigate some type of violence, right?
So that is against the law andpeople don't really understand
that.
I have my right, I have mytruth, I can say what I want to
(08:21):
say.
Well, no, not really, you can't.
You can say whatever you wantas it relates to your thoughts,
but once you start advocatingviolence, that's a whole
different story.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's any kind of violence,
whether it be direct violence orindirect violence, you know,
like yelling fire in a movietheater or saying I have a bomb
on this airplane.
Fire in a movie theater, orsaying I have a bomb on this
airplane, that's kind ofindirect violence, you know,
versus walking up to somebodyand saying, hey, you're fat and
ugly, right, you know type ofthing.
(08:53):
Or hey, you know, those peopleover there said this let's go
fight them, type thing.
That it's two.
It's two different things, butit's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It incites violence, it incites fear and they're
looking to hurt people right andinciting violence isn't
somethingites fear and they'relooking to hurt people.
Right and inciting violenceisn't something like oh
(09:24):
different than to say, let's goto bobby's house and let's bomb
the place and let's set it onfire and let's you know, let's
go after her and let's hurt herreally bad and let's maim her.
That's a whole different storyand so there are different
levels yeah, and there areexceptions to the first
Amendment.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You know there's like you talked about.
The incitement to imminentlawless action is what it's
called Fighting words, right,and that's in here too.
That's a different part.
Fighting words obscenity that'slike sexually explicit things
like that.
That doesn't really fall underthe First Amendment protection.
That doesn't really fall underthe First Amendment protection.
(10:05):
Something called defamation,which a lot of people know the
word but don't know the actuallegal definition.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So tell us what that is.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Do you know it?
I don't have the legaldefinition in front of me, but
the main thing is okay, let'sset up an example.
Two people are talking smackonline.
Up an example.
Two people are talking smackonline.
One person says, hey, uh, kellymakes crappy cakes and she used
her pubic hair to make myfrosting, okay.
So kelly comes on and says no,this is okay, I've been through
(10:39):
this, this is an actual thingthat I saw happen.
I saw go down so kelly, you know, comes on, says you can't say
that because that's defamationof character.
And she, you know it goes backand forth, and back and forth,
and the only way that it's goingto be a defamation of character
is if she has a bakery business, so, and it causes her losses
(11:02):
or it's something else Okay,reputation and things like that.
You know you actually have tonow this is the legal thing you
have to actually have lossesfrom somebody saying something
like this.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So it's not like somebody you know.
They're just bickering onlineand talking smack and she
doesn't even own a bakery.
So who you know?
It's not like you can take awayher bakery Right, people Right.
But a lot of people don't.
They want to say you knowthat's defamation.
It's actually not.
Y'all are just shit talking andneed to quit.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So so I got this defamation description off of
the Iowa State Universitywebsite and it says it's an
intentional and false statementabout an individual that is
publicly communicated in written, which is called libel, or
spoken, which is called slanderform causing injury to the
individual.
Now for that to be defamation,I can't even talk.
(12:03):
I can't even talk Defamation.
That statement must be anassertion of fact rather than
just a mere opinion and capableof being proven false.
So you know, in addition tobeing false, a statement must
identify its victim by naming orreasonably implicating the
person allegedly defamed.
(12:24):
Person allegedly defamed.
So it's not like you could say,oh, that group of people, or
there were two girls who didthis.
Right, you really have to namethose people out and there has
to be injury.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And you know, by definition, the injury would be
physical, financial things likethat right.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
You have to prove that I mean you have to prove
that this is.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
The reason that I lost thirty thousand dollars
this year is because this personsaid this and it was
detrimental.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And it was detrimental.
I have to prove whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, whatever and a lot of people like to use
defamation and oh, you can't saythat, okay.
Well, yeah, actually they can.
What they can't do is theycan't, um, be protected under
the first amendment for thingslike child pornography.
That is not protected, thankGod.
Anything that is called a truethreat.
So someone interprets a seriousexpression as an intent to
(13:19):
commit an act.
So me coming up to you andsaying I'm holding a knife in my
hand, I'm going to stab you,that's not protected under the
First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Right At all.
But here's what really throwsme off on.
That is because if you call thepolice, if you came up to me
and you said, hey, I'm going tostab you and I call the police,
they always say well, unlessthey actually do something and
that's false.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Actually, in the state of Iowa, an assault can
take place with just the threatof words, if you feel in
reasonable fear of being harmed.
But you've heard them say that,but I have yes, so many times.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And it's like what you know?
She just told me she was goingto shoot me, you know, or she
was going to stab me, and that'snot enough.
And so, yeah, I that thatabsolutely you should be
protected.
And and if somebody says youknow something like that, those
are fighting words, those are,those are threatening words.
Um, another part of that, bobby, is harassment.
(14:19):
Correct, correct, okay.
And so the supreme court indavis versus monroe, county, uh,
defined unprotected harassmentas unwelcome conduct based on
the individual's protectedstatus and perceived protected
status that is sufficientlysevere, persistent or pervasive.
And so harassment has to be acontinued thing.
(14:40):
It can't be.
You know, I told Bobby thatshe's at work and I told her she
has to go work on this project,and she says well, I feel like
I'm being harassed, right toobad, so sad and anybody that's
tried to actually get someonefor harassment or stalking knows
how difficult it is, and verydifficult how horrible it is to
(15:00):
go through that now the courtsdo find you know hostile work
environments right.
Those also have to be, uh,proven right, well documented,
well documented, recorded thingslike that yep and so um, and I
played a role in that because Iwas seeing you.
You know I was upper managementwhen I was in my company and
and you know we had to trackthat.
And if somebody ever reportedit you have to investigate,
(15:24):
right, and I don't care if it'sthe first time or what, but if
it's reported a second time,something's going down, right,
you know.
And so you really have to takethose things pretty seriously.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Now let me go back to what you know, I said in the
beginning about the hate speech.
Yeah, so a lot of people thinkthat hate.
Well, first of all, hate speechis not a legal term in the
united states.
Um, so us supreme courtactually has repeatedly ruled
that most of what would qualifyas hate speech in other western
(15:57):
countries is legally protectedspeech under our first amendment
.
What, yeah, yep, there was awhole court case actually in
2017, so this is pretty recent.
It's called Mattal v Tam andsorry if I slaughtered that one,
but the justices unanimouslyreaffirmed that there is
(16:18):
effectively no quote-unquotehate speech exception to the
free speech rights protected bythe First Amendment and that the
US government may notdiscriminate against speech on
the first amendment and that theus government may not
discriminate against speech onthe basis of the speaker's
viewpoint so why are we facingso many people who make a
comment about trump, or thatthey make a comment politically,
(16:39):
or they make a comment aboutthe religion and they say that's
hate speech or that's that's.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You know, that's, that's a hate crime.
It's just like how can that bea?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
defamation thing.
I mean people don't understandthe actual definition of it once
you dig into it.
Now there are some, someexceptions even to that, because
, like, if you yell racial or,you know, sexual slurs towards
somebody while beating the crapout of them, they can prove that
that's a hate crime becauseobviously there was a motivation
(17:08):
there and but there there's nohate speech.
In the united states, um, underthe first amendment there's no
legal what about against raceethnic to ethnic?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
ethnicity this is what happened, which happens
when you get old you can't eventalk well, you're doing the best
with the tongue you got.
Yeah, I guess um gender orsexual orientation or religion
or any other protected status.
What about any type of hatespeech towards that?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
there's no hate speech.
That's what I'm saying.
That there's, it's protected.
So let's look at it from theother way.
Recently we had a very nasty,racially profiling group in Des
Moines that decided to march onthe streets with their
not-so-white caps and signsrecently.
(17:59):
So that's protected.
That's hate speech.
That is hate speech walkingdown the road under anyone
else's definition.
But guess what?
They're protected.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
They're protected so I remember and and this is more
of a religious thing thananything else here, this past
year we had, uh, satanists whodid a demonstration in the iowa
capital, if I remember correctlythat is correct and you weren't
there, were you, because justkeep going, I'll have to
(18:32):
seriously just keep going.
I'm gonna have to go to sleep um, satanists, and you know satan
followers, correct, and uh,there were a lot of people who
said you know they shouldn't bethere.
Well, um, you have the right todo what you're doing, but would
they have let a religious groupdemonstrate inside the capital
(18:55):
too?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
oh, let me stop you there.
They hold bible study everyweek in the capital okay, just
so you know.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Every single week they do they do.
They hold bible study in thecapitol, in one of the the rooms
in the capitol, every singleweek you know, as long as I, I
mean, I think they have theright to do it in this country
and and um, I'm not going to saythat I agree or disagree and we
don't have to agree, we don'thave to disagree with it you
(19:23):
know.
That's.
That's what our freedoms areall about.
Correct is your.
Now, where it becomes a problemis when you start pulling
people aside.
You start humiliating peoplefor their thoughts, their you
know their beliefs any of thatthat's when it becomes a problem
.
I don't care that you have abooth at the fair well, I don't
(19:45):
even care you can, I don't haveto go to that mom, it's still
protected speech.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
You know.
You got the people standingoutside of planned parenthoods
which, by the way, do notperform abortions at planned
parenthoods, just so everybodyknows.
You got people standing in iowain iowa, you refer them on to
other doctors.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
It's not like they're going into a plan.
Let's not act like they don'tadvocate.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Anyways, the people standing outside of there with
their signs saying you're goingto hell, god hates you.
You're a murderer, they'reprotected yeah.
They are protected and they'rehumiliating people that they
don't know their circumstances.
They are hateful, they are,almost to the point, inciting at
(20:30):
a lot of points, you know, andeven places like the west world
baptist church, who demonstratesat veterans funerals.
They're protected.
Do I like it?
Absolutely not, absolutely not,and I'll do everything in my
power to block those people whenthat happens.
But they're protected.
Yeah, we don't have to like it,we don't have to agree with it.
(20:52):
They're protected.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
So let's bring this home just a little bit, because
we've talked about what foundingfathers felt.
Freedom of speech meant,freedom of, you know, uh, press
and and that sort of thing.
But when we're out and aboutand you've got somebody who's in
your face just yelling andscreaming and hatefulness, um,
(21:18):
you know, is that their right tobe spitting in your face?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
and getting that close.
Spitting is a assault.
Spitting is an assault.
It is, it is.
I'm glad you recognize that.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
But I mean, I guess I feel like you know I think
about, because in the state ofIowa they do still have the
pride event.
Okay, correct.
And so at the pride eventyou'll always see someone from
the churches or evangelizing.
Correct, and that's okay withme.
You don't like it?
(21:51):
Keep moving, keep moving.
You don't have to stop.
But instead it becomes an allout almost brawl between these
people.
The other thing is, you dosometimes see the churches, or
sometimes the religious groupswho will stand in front of an
(22:11):
abortion clinic.
Right, and I'll be very honestwith you, I am very pro-life.
If I'm going to choose onebetween life and death, it's
going to be life pro-birth.
Okay, pro-birth, um, but do Ithink that people have the right
(22:33):
to stand out there and say whatthey want to say?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think they do, and if you don't like it, keep
moving well, I mean and that'sthe conundrum because I'm I'm
pro, mind my own damn businesswhen it comes to those things,
and so yeah but isn't mindingyour own business, walking on
and saying, hey, this well, yeah, but I'm offended me it sucks.
(22:57):
It sucks that you know theypeople, certain people, do have
the right to hold that space,just as anyone else would.
It sucks.
It sucks for a lot of groups, alot of people, things like that
.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
But the bottom line is it's protected, it's
protected, it's protected andyou have the right to say on
either side, you have the rightto say what you want to say.
Now, if I don't like it, I'mgoing to keep moving, right, and
I think that the problem that Isee myself is people take all
of this so personally and youknow, if you deny what I am
(23:35):
trying to tell you or what theyare trying to tell you, so be it
.
Right, so be it.
I'm not going to fight you overthat.
And there's just so much angerand so when you, you think about
you know what's going on,especially in the political
arena right now, I just see somuch hate and so much discord
right now and you just kind ofwant to go.
(23:55):
First of all, they don't knowyour names, uh, and they don't
care that much about you, right,and so you know, just live your
life and move on, because infour years we're going to be
right back at this, but I meanthat's politics.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I mean they, they use the people to back them and to
fight for them.
And to you know things likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So what would be your advice as it relates to free
speech?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
what would be your advice as it relates to free
speech?
There's going to be a lot ofpeople out there that, from your
opinion, should apologize totrees for the oxygen they waste,
but they're allowed to wastethat oxygen, right?
I mean, you know, keep yourhands to yourself, protect
yourself at all times, and uh,yeah, that's about all I got.
(24:43):
Don't start it, but you betterend it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, I think it's really interesting because you
know, I mentioned it before if Idon't have a dog in the fight,
I'm really not going to getinvolved in um, you know, do I
have a responsibility to try tobe reasonable with people?
Yeah, absolutely.
I want to be kind to people, Iwant to be reasonable to people.
When somebody comes back at meand they're in my face and
(25:10):
whatever, I got an opportunityto just keep walking.
I don't have to stay there andlisten to that crap.
I can just keep walking andthey can keep walking too.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It's all about choices.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Life's all about choices.
It's all life's all about it isabsolutely it's your own
adventure book so I think thatthat's probably all we have to
say today, unless you hadsomething else, bob I don't
think so.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I think that that's all the serious insanity we have
for today.
And uh, listen, we really thankyou guys for joining us every
week.
If you have any suggestions,any questions, any constructive
criticism, we do have our email,which is boomerangenexer at
gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
And I just want to say something real quickly.
Bobbi, we got some really goodcompliments this week.
We did, and I was so happy tohear from our listeners and they
enjoy what we're saying.
They enjoy what we're hearing.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
They may not agree with us, and that's okay and
they enjoy hearing us argue, sothat's always good.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
They do enjoy that, and and so, um, I just want to
tell them thank you for reachingout to us and saying hey, you
know, I really like that topic,or I really liked how you two
played off of each other, and Ireally liked the banter between
the two of you and we just werethankful for it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, and we're not going anywhere.
We got plenty of show ideas andwe would love plenty more.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, head on over to Facebook.
A Boomer and a Gen Xer walkinto a bar.
The official podcast page sayhi, like us, share us whatever
you want to do, but keeplistening and we really
appreciate you.
So until next week.
I'm Bobby Joy and I'm Jane Burtand you're stuck with us.
Peace out Later.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.