April 15, 2025 • 26 mins
A mother-daughter duo tackles one of society's most controversial topics: sex work. From the start, they establish clear boundaries for the conversation, focusing on consensual adult sex work rather than trafficking or exploitation. What unfolds is definitely a generational divide in perspectives.
The Gen X daughter argues passionately that "sex work is legit work" when freely chosen. She makes compelling comparisons between selling one's body for sex and selling it for military service or corporate labor. Meanwhile, her Boomer mother raises thoughtful concerns about morality and potential societal impacts, while acknowledging the practical benefits regulation could bring.
Their conversation examines the Netherlands model, where sex work is legal and regulated. They explore how criminalization in the United States makes sex workers vulnerable to violence, creating a population that becomes "the less missing, the less murdered" because their humanity is often overlooked by society and law enforcement.
As they navigate difficult questions about exploitation, safety, disease prevention, and public perception, both women reveal surprising viewpoints that challenge stereotypes about their respective generations.
This candid, often humorous exchange offers listeners a thoughtful framework for examining their own beliefs about sex work, revealing that the issue is far more nuanced than simple moral judgments or libertarian arguments might suggest. Whatever your perspective, you'll find yourself reconsidering assumptions and appreciating the humanity at the center of this complex debate.
What topics would you like these fearless conversationalists to tackle next? Email your suggestions to boomerandgenexer@gmail.com and join the conversation.
email: boomerandgenxer@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
welcome everyone to today's show.
A boomer and a gen xer walkinto a bar, coming to you from
the rabbit hole studio wherewe're going to take you as a
listener on an experience of witand wisdom, smart assery and a
mother and daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is is Bobbi Joy, myco-host is my mom, jane, and we
(00:26):
are here to entertain on a verydecisive subject today.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Wow, and I cannot believe we're going to be
talking about this subject,because she's already warned me
in advance that we are not goingto be agreeing on much here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, I've already cracked open.
Uh, one drink.
Yeah, here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm not sure if you're the one who needs the
drinks or if I do.
So we there, we have it allright.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So what?
What's the topic and how didthis topic come about?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
well, the topic is sex workers and kind of the
controversy surrounding sexworkers.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Maybe I am the one who has been drinking.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Sex workers.
And how did this come up, DrDomain?
Hmm, how did it Look at him?
Just look at us like what.
I don't want to say anything.
I didn't bring it up.
I had nothing to do with any ofthis whatsoever.
How'd it come up, Dr Domain?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You all started it.
What we started it, I justthrew in the rock and roll piece
that was all.
Oh yeah, I see.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Okay, All right.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I was trying to keep it clean board like we're making
any money on this that is yourdad there.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All right.
So, Bob, what do you want totalk about as it relates to sex
workers?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, let's put some parameters down first.
So let's let's talk about sexwork, and we're not talking
about human trafficking.
We're not talking about humantrafficking.
We're not talking about childtrafficking.
We're talking about legit sexwork you're talking about
prostitution.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You're talking about porn, pornography, correct?
Not child porn.
Oh so dr domain finally findsthe button he sure did um.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So we're talking about pornography and we're not
talking about child pornographyright, nothing against your will
or anything like that, nothingagainst anybody's will.
We're talking about willingparticipants, adults, you know,
people who have chosen this lineof work Right, who are engaging
in the oldest occupation.
(02:48):
Profession Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
That's known to man.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So here's a question for you, a pop quiz.
Okay, do you know what UnitedStates state has the most sex
workers?
Nevada, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Las.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Vegas?
Yes, it's Nevada.
It is yeah, sex workers nevada.
Yes, las vegas yes, it's nevada.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It is.
Yeah, because you can walk downthe street and boom, there they
are now, do you know againstyou?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
do you know what the safest country in the world is
for sex workers?
Switzerland?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
no, sweden no, does it start with an s?
It does not.
Okay, what is it?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
the netherlands the red light district.
Oh, oh yeah, because over thereit's an actual form of work.
Yes, yes, it is, and it's not,it's not as regarded lowly
regarded as it is other placesand a lot of that is is because
(03:44):
they are consenting as adults,they choose that line of work.
There are safety measuresmostly put in place things like
that to where you know otherparts of the world.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Not all that happens so in the netherlands, then, to
protect these workers, do they Iassume that they have a lot of
regulations in place associatedwith you know how they do it,
where they do it, how theyadvertise that sort of thing?
Do they have a lot ofregulations in the Netherlands?
(04:17):
I don't really know.
I know they do have the redlight district, right, and I do
know that, yeah, it's legal.
You can kind of walk down there, correct?
I would think that there'scertain things that you still
can't do right there in public,right.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, right, and it is the red light district.
You know, because they have thewindows and things like that,
you don't do it openly in thestreet.
Of course it's not an obscenething, but they do have it's
legal, it's regulated, they have.
They have it's legal, it'sregulated.
They're considered independentworkers who have to register and
they also pay taxes.
(04:50):
Are they unionized?
They should be.
They pay dues.
They should be.
And I'm going to tell you mystance right now sex work is
legit work across the board ifyou are a willing participant,
sex work is legit work.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Okay, well, let's talk about that, because there
is a lot of controversysurrounding sex work and it
stems, you know, from deeplydivided perspectives, for sure,
and some view it as a form ofexploitation primarily on women.
Now, it's not that way today.
It is both men and women,correct?
Not that way today.
(05:28):
It is both men and women,correct, correct?
And um, other advocates, youknow, state that, um,
decriminalization of it is kindof a recognition of it's okay
well, and let's be honest,consenting adults.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
This is your choice.
You're not forced into this.
You know, like I said, we'renot talking human trafficking,
we're not talking anything likethat.
This is your choice of work.
Why would we look down on that?
I mean, in a way, we sell ourbodies every day, whether it's
to join the military, whetherit's to go to a corporate job,
(06:00):
whether it's to do manual labor.
You're selling your body tosomebody one way or the other.
And if this is how they want todo it, why can't we allow them
to do that?
Why can't we regulate it?
Why can't we put up, you know,safety procedures and laws in
place?
Because a lot of these sexworkers they're called the less
(06:20):
missing, the less murdered, theless kidnapped, the because
people just don't see them as anupper echelon of real society.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
They don't see them as real people.
Yeah, and and so and they makemore money than most of us do,
so that's probably true.
I could tell you I could go outand try it and I wouldn't be.
I don't think I could affordeggs at this point.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Can we not put that image in my head right now?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I am your daughter, so you mentioned that you know
you're selling your body.
You're actually selling aservice.
So you know, I mean, in somecases, yeah, I think you're
selling your body.
In other cases, I think you'reselling a service, uh, that
you're able to provide, whetherthat's manual labor, whether
it's psychological labor,whether it's mental labor.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Either way, it's your body.
It is your body, your body,your time, choosing what you
want to do.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You're selling it to somebody to get that paycheck,
so to go on the other side ofthe coin, because I know where
you're going to argue, I'm goingto argue.
The other side has to do withexploitation and oppression.
And proponents of this reallyargue that sex work is
inherently exploitive,exploitive, exploitive
(07:38):
Particularly for women.
And I'm just going to say righthere I think women exploit
women.
I think you know if you'regoing to get, if you're going to
engage in that type of activityor that type of service, you're
exploiting yourself.
You're not.
No one else is doing it to you,no one is forcing you to do it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Now we could go into but how is that exploitation
though I mean it's, it'sliterally I, I guess I just see
it as work.
I mean it's work.
You're using your body one wayor the other.
I don't see it as exploitive.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
If that's what you want to do, well, I don't see it
that way I think that the otherpart of it is it's the first
step of manifestation into umsystemic violence for a lot of
these workers.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And that's because there's no laws.
There's no regulations, there'sno protections for these men
and women who choose this aswhat they want to do so.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
do you think in the Netherlands they're more
protected?
Do you think that there's lessmurders of these type of workers
?
Do you think that there's lessbelittling and disgrace?
You see my smile right?
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You see my smile because you just hit on a point
that I actually have pulled up.
Yeah, they're more protectedover there.
They are because and it's beenkind of studied and things like
that Going back to a podcastthat we did before on my serial
killer podcast podcast that wedid before on my serial killer
podcast serial killers targetsex workers more often because
(09:10):
they don't have protection,they're not regulated, they're
not registered, nobody's goingto report them missing type of
thing it's.
It's easy pickings, yeah youknow, get in my car, I want to
pay you for sex.
Well, nobody's going to knowyou're missing, or nobody's
going to care that you'remissing because you're, you're.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You're in the lower echelons of the of this country
or no one wants to report it,because I, at this point, I know
that I'm committing a crime,right?
Right in the united states, I'mcommitting a crime.
It's hard for me to go report acrime of even rape, right um
assault, murder, kidnapping,that sort of thing, because I'm
(09:48):
already a criminal as aprostitute, correct, and so it
would be very difficult for meto go ahead and um and rape is a
huge one.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know, people think that just because you sell
sex, that you don't have theright to govern your own body.
And a lot of people out therethink well, you were at you know
generations old argument.
You were asking for it, youdress like that, you're a
prostitute.
What did you expect?
Well, you know, I mean Come on,let's get some regulations,
(10:19):
let's get some laws, let's getsome protections for these
people, because they have theright to do it.
I think that they have theright to do it and they deserve
those protections.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
If they say no, it's no.
So in the United States, ofcourse, you know there's a
question.
It's very questionable as towhether there's a lack of true
consent, because some of thesegirls and guys are out there
selling their services not onlybecause they feel like they have
to to make money, but becausethey are coerced by other people
(10:50):
right by controllers, andthat's more human trafficking
right and and so a lot of timesthey're coerced or you know they
they lack the the economicability to get out of that type
of work Right, and so they facesome hardships and other
vulnerabilities and therefore—but a lot of that is because of
(11:11):
lack of regulations and laws forthese things.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You know if we—it's kind of like the marijuana
debate.
So you know the governmentcomes in and says, okay,
marijuana is legal.
Now we're going to tax it,we're going to regulate it,
we're going to regulate it,we're going to make sure there's
stores that have it.
There is way more protections.
You know you're driving out theunderground sellers of this,
the people who exploit otherpeople to sell marijuana,
(11:35):
because now it's legal and wehave protections for them.
It's the same as sex work.
It really is, because once youhave those protections, you're
going to drive out those humantrafficking.
You know rings and things likethat, because there's not going
to be an issue getting thesexual pleasure from someone,
because it's not illegal anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, and you know you already touched on it a
little bit.
You know, the criminalizationof sex work, they argue, really
kind of pushes sex workers whoare assaulted, who are molested,
who are raped, who are beat up,who are into the shadows, which
does make them more vulnerableto the violences on the street.
(12:19):
And that's what I'm talkingabout, about exploitation, not
necessarily, uh, you know, intrafficking, and so whether
you're an adult or a child, youcan be trafficked Absolutely, so
you don't have to be 12 yearsold to be trafficked.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No, it doesn't matter what you look like or your race
, or your size or your age.
Anyone can be trafficked.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So let me ask me, ask you, this do you so, based on
what you're telling me, youdon't see this as being harmful
to society?
Now, maybe it's harmful tosociety the way that we have it
in the united states, but if wehad regulations set up to
protect these folks and havethem provide a service, for it's
kind of like supply and demand,right, exactly, exactly it is
(13:03):
uh, so, but some would arguethat, um, that kind of
normalizes sex work, kind ofnormalizes violence, um, against
women particularly, andcontributes to sexualization of
children I guess I don't seethat.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Like I said, if it's a willing adult participant and
there are rules and regulations,there's laws in place, it's
going to cut down on all of that.
I mean, it's going to pull thatout of the pool because now
there's a brothel you can driveto.
And if you're talking about inthis country I think you're
(13:38):
talking more about the morals,the moral issue of this country
how it's going to drag themorality down because there's a
brothel on you know four cornersin a town.
Listen, they're going to do itone way or the other.
Okay, whether it's legal or not, people are going to cheat,
people are going to lie, thingslike that.
That is an issue in theirrelationship.
(14:00):
I don't see this.
That is an issue in theirrelationship.
I don't see this.
I mean honestly, right now,you're going to laugh at me.
I would pay to get laid rightnow because it has been a year
and a half, and if I could finda safe and vetted place, I'm
telling you what it would reallybe a lot of stress.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Check, please, check, please.
Can somebody pull the car?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
around it is.
I mean, it's not just amarriage ruiner, it's not just a
family annihilator type ofthing.
You know there is an actuallegit market out there for
people and honestly I think itwould help with the incel
problem that this country hasthe what incel incel.
(14:43):
You've never heard that I'venot heard so it's basically
these men that I hate to put itthis way.
It's these men that live intheir mother's basements, that
think that women owe them sex,and they're just the women are
just dirt bags well, you know, Imean, it could be women.
No, this is it's primarily men,it's men and it's on the extreme
(15:03):
, to where they're violentthings like that, because nobody
wants to sleep with them,because they're idiots.
Well, I mean, if they could godown and pay a price and have a
legit sex worker take care ofthem, maybe they wouldn't be so
mad.
I don't know, maybe theywouldn't be so angry.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Well, you had mentioned immortality and um,
not immortality I was gonna saythis is the vampire diaries no,
not the vampire diaries.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Um morals morals, morality, morality, yes sorry
about that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Um, and you know the the.
The problem is is we have somany immoral people right now on
the streets that it's like wecan just do anything we want in
front of anybody that we want.
And so I really do think thatthe fear is, if I had a brothel
on the corner and I got kidswalking to school, is there
(15:56):
somebody out there on the cornerwith a sandwich sign on them
going, hey, come on in two forone two for one.
Yeah, rules and regulations, butwe know how that works too.
Yeah, now you know, I wouldargue that it could be
controlled, and I would arguethat it could be regulated just
as you think it can.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Just because there's a church on the corner, I don't
see everybody breaking the doordown to get in there well, and I
mean you see more sexuallyexplicit material on a you know
evening show anymore than you doanywhere else.
These kids are exposed to itevery day.
And morals are a personal issue, in my opinion.
Your morals, my morals, theirmorals, they're all different.
(16:41):
You know where we draw the line, where we cross the line,
things like that, and so I Ithink that's another show right
there I think it is you know ourmorals and our principles and
our standards.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think that's a whole, whole other show.
It is um, but yeah, I get whatyou're saying.
You know, I gotta be honestwith I got mixed feelings about
it because I don't like to seeanybody selling their bodies,
right.
I don't like to see anybodyusing their body in that way.
I mean, I feel we were createdfor a different reason and so I
(17:14):
don't like seeing anybody usingour bodies in that way.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I could make that argument, though, for military
people who sign up for themilitary.
You, you know your governmentproperty, and they'll tell you
things like if uncle sam wantedyou to have a wife, they'd
issued you one so you know when,when you sell your, your body
to the united states governmentfor the military, they own you
top to bottom, in and out, leftand right, your morals, your
(17:39):
values, your opinions,everything.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So I, I guess, I just don't, I don't see it any
different I, I think that again,you know now my mind is going
to moral standards andprinciples.
I mean that's that's I mean thatthat's what stops each of us
from not killing, not, you know,not being deceitful, not
participating in thievery, allthose things, and so you kind of
(18:05):
go.
Is that for me?
No, is it something I wouldadvocate?
No, but I do see your pointthat if it's regulated and
you're selling a service and wecan protect people, listen, it's
supply and demand.
It's out there, whether we likeit or not.
It's out there.
I'm not advocating for it, butI'm saying it's out there,
whether we like it or not.
Right, it's out there.
I'm not advocating for it, butI'm saying it's out there.
Yeah, and you know the humanrights part of it.
(18:28):
You know whether you're a sexworker or not.
You got rights andunfortunately, in the united
states, if something happens toa sex worker and we already
talked about this it's almostlike they don't have any rights.
You don't have the right totalk, you don't have rights to
anything.
You're a low-life, you knowprostitute or whatever.
(18:48):
Well, what about the guy thatcame out looking for, or what
about the gal that came outlooking for him?
And so you know, like I said, Ido kind of have some mixed
feelings about it, see, and I'mall for unionizing sex workers.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Get them on the paper , get them on the laws, get them
on the books.
Let's start protecting thesepeople and let's make them no
more less than disappeared, nomore less than missing, no more
(19:26):
less than missing, no more lessthan beat up, because, honestly,
if that's their choice, that'stheir choice in life and you
know good for them.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I mean, I'd love to make that kind of money do you
think that that type of serviceopen and freely advertised, as
it is in the sex trafficking ofchildren?
Do you think that it's like ahyper sexualization?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
yeah, I mean, it's not that far of a reach bobby?
no, I, I really don't, becauseyou don't see, I mean I I guess
I I don't know, but you know youdon't really hear about kids
running through the red lightdistrict.
You don't hear about because ofthe regulations.
Sure, you know?
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat we can do to protect them
(20:10):
that will not catapult them intomainstream.
I mean we've got billboards forsex shops along i-80, you know,
I mean the kids, what aboutthat?
It's not sex work, but it's asex shop.
What are you going to do aboutthat with your kids?
You say, okay, well, maybe youneed to have the sex talk a
little earlier with them, or you, you know something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Do you have, since you did bring up Netherlands and
it is so prevalent over thereas being legalized?
Did you take a look at all attheir increased risk of sexually
transmitted diseases?
You know, because sometimesit's hard to get treatment or
it's hard to get preventativemeasures.
Is it lower?
(20:53):
Is is the violence against sexworkers lower so?
In the netherlands than it isin the united states.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I don't know when it comes to stis and stds.
It it's becoming a problemeverywhere, regardless of
whether sex work is legalized ornot, and especially, you know,
even here in iowa we have asevere outbreak of stds that are
being untreated and passedaround.
It's not just a sex workerproblem, it's.
(21:21):
It's an everybody problem, youknow, and I'm talking even
people your age and older whoare going into retirement
villages and things like that.
There are heightened, you know,instances of chlamydia and
things like that being passedaround do you think that it
would?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
it would lower, you know, because right now, as a
sex worker, you go in to gethelp and you're looked down upon
, right and you could getregular testing, you could get
you know the.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The public health would step in and say hey, we
have monthly testing, we havefree condoms, we have you know
things like that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That would actually help them to stay safe and to
not spread those diseases so didyou know that new zealand um
they've decriminalized work,meaning it's not illegal to
engage in sex work?
But, it's also not regulatedRight, so they don't have
anything to protect them.
They really don't have.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And I think that's more dangerous than having it
criminalized, just because it'salmost kind of like a Wild West
thing.
You've got no laws, noregulations, no protections and
the police aren't going to stepin yeah, yeah, well, I know
where you stand, yeah unionizethem, unionize sex work is real
(22:41):
work yeah local union sex 104 or69, oh man, that was.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Hey, you got to give me credit for that one, so you
know, again, I I guess I don'tsee it.
As you know, even I I thinkabout um, strip joints and stuff
.
I don't think that anybody isout there exploiting anybody
other than themselves.
If I choose to get on a poll,I'm exploding, my exploiting
myself.
And so to blame men, to blamemen or other people for
(23:19):
exploiting them, I think that'ssilliness.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You're doing it to yourself yeah, when we're
talking about, like, the willingparticipants, absolutely yeah,
yeah, I mean you're sellingyourself one way or the other.
You're selling yourself One wayor the other.
You're selling yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, I guess, from a respect standpoint, from a, I
don't want to treat my body thatway and I have respect for what
I was created as and who I wascreated after.
Because I was created after theperfect king, so were you.
I personally would not advocatefor it.
(23:52):
Now I see your points, don'tget me wrong.
I see your points because Ithink that it could bring some
control, some lawful safety,some laws that sort of thing,
regulations that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
But from my perspective, no, yeah, I guess
we disagree on that we agreetoday.
I mean, yeah, I don't know,it's a bit, like I said, been a
year and a half is thatsomething I needed to know?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
see you talk about the things that I say listen,
you're all in my business,anyways.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I got a visual on that.
I can't get it out of thingsthat I say listen, you're all in
my business, anyways, I got avisual on that.
I can't get it out of my head.
That's because you're old.
Here comes mom.
You're my mom, you, I have onesister.
You've had sex twice, period,that's it.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Okay, that's right, and don't you forget it.
Don't you forget it.
Well, bobby, that was gooddiscussion.
I mean it really was, and I'mglad.
I'm glad you brought it up.
Maybe our listeners have somecomments related to it and maybe
they've had some thoughtsassociated with it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Maybe they've been to the red light district and they
can tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Or maybe they're sex workers.
And they would like to givetheir point of view, absolutely
no judgment, but maybe they'reon the other side of the coin
too and they're saying, nah, Ireally am not for advocating for
that for sex workers, and we'dlike to hear from both sides.
And so you know, if you've gotsome comments or you know
(25:18):
anything you'd like to talk tous about, as it relates to that,
we're certainly open to hearingit and discussing it, and if
you have another topic, we'reopen to that too.
But we are going to get back tomoral standards and values.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I can tell you that one and I'm not soliciting it,
so please don't message me.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Wait a minute.
You just solicited yourself.
After a year and a half, I'mtelling you, but no, thank you
Well.
I think that's all we have fortoday and we appreciate you
joining us here at the RabbitHole Studio.
Be sure to follow us.
We look forward to spendingtime with you each week.
Please like us and if you havesome positive feedback for us or
(25:57):
you have a topic, we're reallyinterested in your topics.
It's not that we're running outof them, because, man, we just
keep filling up on topic aftertopic, but we'd like to hear
what you want us to talk about.
But drop us a short email atboomerandjenexer at gmailcom.
If you have hate mail, not somuch.
We'll take your constructivecriticism, but we're not going
(26:18):
to take your hate mail.
We just turn that stuff off.
So until next week.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I'm Jane Burt and I'm Bobbi Joy and you're stuck with
us.
Peace out Later.
welcome everyone to today's show.
A boomer and a gen xer walkinto a bar, coming to you from
the rabbit hole studio wherewe're going to take you as a
listener on an experience of witand wisdom, smart assery and a
mother and daughter questioning.
Are we even related?
My name is is Bobbi Joy, myco-host is my mom, jane, and we
(00:26):
are here to entertain on a verydecisive subject today.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Wow, and I cannot believe we're going to be
talking about this subject,because she's already warned me
in advance that we are not goingto be agreeing on much here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, I've already cracked open.
Uh, one drink.
Yeah, here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm not sure if you're the one who needs the
drinks or if I do.
So we there, we have it allright.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So what?
What's the topic and how didthis topic come about?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
well, the topic is sex workers and kind of the
controversy surrounding sexworkers.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Maybe I am the one who has been drinking.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Sex workers.
And how did this come up, DrDomain?
Hmm, how did it Look at him?
Just look at us like what.
I don't want to say anything.
I didn't bring it up.
I had nothing to do with any ofthis whatsoever.
How'd it come up, Dr Domain?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You all started it.
What we started it, I justthrew in the rock and roll piece
that was all.
Oh yeah, I see.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Okay, All right.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I was trying to keep it clean board like we're making
any money on this that is yourdad there.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All right.
So, Bob, what do you want totalk about as it relates to sex
workers?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, let's put some parameters down first.
So let's let's talk about sexwork, and we're not talking
about human trafficking.
We're not talking about humantrafficking.
We're not talking about childtrafficking.
We're talking about legit sexwork you're talking about
prostitution.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You're talking about porn, pornography, correct?
Not child porn.
Oh so dr domain finally findsthe button he sure did um.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So we're talking about pornography and we're not
talking about child pornographyright, nothing against your will
or anything like that, nothingagainst anybody's will.
We're talking about willingparticipants, adults, you know,
people who have chosen this lineof work Right, who are engaging
in the oldest occupation.
(02:48):
Profession Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
That's known to man.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So here's a question for you, a pop quiz.
Okay, do you know what UnitedStates state has the most sex
workers?
Nevada, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Las.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Vegas?
Yes, it's Nevada.
It is yeah, sex workers nevada.
Yes, las vegas yes, it's nevada.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It is.
Yeah, because you can walk downthe street and boom, there they
are now, do you know againstyou?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
do you know what the safest country in the world is
for sex workers?
Switzerland?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
no, sweden no, does it start with an s?
It does not.
Okay, what is it?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
the netherlands the red light district.
Oh, oh yeah, because over thereit's an actual form of work.
Yes, yes, it is, and it's not,it's not as regarded lowly
regarded as it is other placesand a lot of that is is because
(03:44):
they are consenting as adults,they choose that line of work.
There are safety measuresmostly put in place things like
that to where you know otherparts of the world.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Not all that happens so in the netherlands, then, to
protect these workers, do they Iassume that they have a lot of
regulations in place associatedwith you know how they do it,
where they do it, how theyadvertise that sort of thing?
Do they have a lot ofregulations in the Netherlands?
(04:17):
I don't really know.
I know they do have the redlight district, right, and I do
know that, yeah, it's legal.
You can kind of walk down there, correct?
I would think that there'scertain things that you still
can't do right there in public,right.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, right, and it is the red light district.
You know, because they have thewindows and things like that,
you don't do it openly in thestreet.
Of course it's not an obscenething, but they do have it's
legal, it's regulated, they have.
They have it's legal, it'sregulated.
They're considered independentworkers who have to register and
they also pay taxes.
(04:50):
Are they unionized?
They should be.
They pay dues.
They should be.
And I'm going to tell you mystance right now sex work is
legit work across the board ifyou are a willing participant,
sex work is legit work.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Okay, well, let's talk about that, because there
is a lot of controversysurrounding sex work and it
stems, you know, from deeplydivided perspectives, for sure,
and some view it as a form ofexploitation primarily on women.
Now, it's not that way today.
It is both men and women,correct?
Not that way today.
(05:28):
It is both men and women,correct, correct?
And um, other advocates, youknow, state that, um,
decriminalization of it is kindof a recognition of it's okay
well, and let's be honest,consenting adults.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
This is your choice.
You're not forced into this.
You know, like I said, we'renot talking human trafficking,
we're not talking anything likethat.
This is your choice of work.
Why would we look down on that?
I mean, in a way, we sell ourbodies every day, whether it's
to join the military, whetherit's to go to a corporate job,
(06:00):
whether it's to do manual labor.
You're selling your body tosomebody one way or the other.
And if this is how they want todo it, why can't we allow them
to do that?
Why can't we regulate it?
Why can't we put up, you know,safety procedures and laws in
place?
Because a lot of these sexworkers they're called the less
(06:20):
missing, the less murdered, theless kidnapped, the because
people just don't see them as anupper echelon of real society.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
They don't see them as real people.
Yeah, and and so and they makemore money than most of us do,
so that's probably true.
I could tell you I could go outand try it and I wouldn't be.
I don't think I could affordeggs at this point.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Can we not put that image in my head right now?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I am your daughter, so you mentioned that you know
you're selling your body.
You're actually selling aservice.
So you know, I mean, in somecases, yeah, I think you're
selling your body.
In other cases, I think you'reselling a service, uh, that
you're able to provide, whetherthat's manual labor, whether
it's psychological labor,whether it's mental labor.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Either way, it's your body.
It is your body, your body,your time, choosing what you
want to do.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You're selling it to somebody to get that paycheck,
so to go on the other side ofthe coin, because I know where
you're going to argue, I'm goingto argue.
The other side has to do withexploitation and oppression.
And proponents of this reallyargue that sex work is
inherently exploitive,exploitive, exploitive
(07:38):
Particularly for women.
And I'm just going to say righthere I think women exploit
women.
I think you know if you'regoing to get, if you're going to
engage in that type of activityor that type of service, you're
exploiting yourself.
You're not.
No one else is doing it to you,no one is forcing you to do it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Now we could go into but how is that exploitation
though I mean it's, it'sliterally I, I guess I just see
it as work.
I mean it's work.
You're using your body one wayor the other.
I don't see it as exploitive.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
If that's what you want to do, well, I don't see it
that way I think that the otherpart of it is it's the first
step of manifestation into umsystemic violence for a lot of
these workers.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And that's because there's no laws.
There's no regulations, there'sno protections for these men
and women who choose this aswhat they want to do so.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
do you think in the Netherlands they're more
protected?
Do you think that there's lessmurders of these type of workers
?
Do you think that there's lessbelittling and disgrace?
You see my smile right?
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You see my smile because you just hit on a point
that I actually have pulled up.
Yeah, they're more protectedover there.
They are because and it's beenkind of studied and things like
that Going back to a podcastthat we did before on my serial
killer podcast podcast that wedid before on my serial killer
podcast serial killers targetsex workers more often because
(09:10):
they don't have protection,they're not regulated, they're
not registered, nobody's goingto report them missing type of
thing it's.
It's easy pickings, yeah youknow, get in my car, I want to
pay you for sex.
Well, nobody's going to knowyou're missing, or nobody's
going to care that you'remissing because you're, you're.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You're in the lower echelons of the of this country
or no one wants to report it,because I, at this point, I know
that I'm committing a crime,right?
Right in the united states, I'mcommitting a crime.
It's hard for me to go report acrime of even rape, right um
assault, murder, kidnapping,that sort of thing, because I'm
(09:48):
already a criminal as aprostitute, correct, and so it
would be very difficult for meto go ahead and um and rape is a
huge one.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know, people think that just because you sell
sex, that you don't have theright to govern your own body.
And a lot of people out therethink well, you were at you know
generations old argument.
You were asking for it, youdress like that, you're a
prostitute.
What did you expect?
Well, you know, I mean Come on,let's get some regulations,
(10:19):
let's get some laws, let's getsome protections for these
people, because they have theright to do it.
I think that they have theright to do it and they deserve
those protections.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
If they say no, it's no.
So in the United States, ofcourse, you know there's a
question.
It's very questionable as towhether there's a lack of true
consent, because some of thesegirls and guys are out there
selling their services not onlybecause they feel like they have
to to make money, but becausethey are coerced by other people
(10:50):
right by controllers, andthat's more human trafficking
right and and so a lot of timesthey're coerced or you know they
they lack the the economicability to get out of that type
of work Right, and so they facesome hardships and other
vulnerabilities and therefore—but a lot of that is because of
(11:11):
lack of regulations and laws forthese things.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You know if we—it's kind of like the marijuana
debate.
So you know the governmentcomes in and says, okay,
marijuana is legal.
Now we're going to tax it,we're going to regulate it,
we're going to regulate it,we're going to make sure there's
stores that have it.
There is way more protections.
You know you're driving out theunderground sellers of this,
the people who exploit otherpeople to sell marijuana,
(11:35):
because now it's legal and wehave protections for them.
It's the same as sex work.
It really is, because once youhave those protections, you're
going to drive out those humantrafficking.
You know rings and things likethat, because there's not going
to be an issue getting thesexual pleasure from someone,
because it's not illegal anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, and you know you already touched on it a
little bit.
You know, the criminalizationof sex work, they argue, really
kind of pushes sex workers whoare assaulted, who are molested,
who are raped, who are beat up,who are into the shadows, which
does make them more vulnerableto the violences on the street.
(12:19):
And that's what I'm talkingabout, about exploitation, not
necessarily, uh, you know, intrafficking, and so whether
you're an adult or a child, youcan be trafficked Absolutely, so
you don't have to be 12 yearsold to be trafficked.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No, it doesn't matter what you look like or your race
, or your size or your age.
Anyone can be trafficked.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So let me ask me, ask you, this do you so, based on
what you're telling me, youdon't see this as being harmful
to society?
Now, maybe it's harmful tosociety the way that we have it
in the united states, but if wehad regulations set up to
protect these folks and havethem provide a service, for it's
kind of like supply and demand,right, exactly, exactly it is
(13:03):
uh, so, but some would arguethat, um, that kind of
normalizes sex work, kind ofnormalizes violence, um, against
women particularly, andcontributes to sexualization of
children I guess I don't seethat.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Like I said, if it's a willing adult participant and
there are rules and regulations,there's laws in place, it's
going to cut down on all of that.
I mean, it's going to pull thatout of the pool because now
there's a brothel you can driveto.
And if you're talking about inthis country I think you're
(13:38):
talking more about the morals,the moral issue of this country
how it's going to drag themorality down because there's a
brothel on you know four cornersin a town.
Listen, they're going to do itone way or the other.
Okay, whether it's legal or not, people are going to cheat,
people are going to lie, thingslike that.
That is an issue in theirrelationship.
(14:00):
I don't see this.
That is an issue in theirrelationship.
I don't see this.
I mean honestly, right now,you're going to laugh at me.
I would pay to get laid rightnow because it has been a year
and a half, and if I could finda safe and vetted place, I'm
telling you what it would reallybe a lot of stress.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Check, please, check, please.
Can somebody pull the car?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
around it is.
I mean, it's not just amarriage ruiner, it's not just a
family annihilator type ofthing.
You know there is an actuallegit market out there for
people and honestly I think itwould help with the incel
problem that this country hasthe what incel incel.
(14:43):
You've never heard that I'venot heard so it's basically
these men that I hate to put itthis way.
It's these men that live intheir mother's basements, that
think that women owe them sex,and they're just the women are
just dirt bags well, you know, Imean, it could be women.
No, this is it's primarily men,it's men and it's on the extreme
(15:03):
, to where they're violentthings like that, because nobody
wants to sleep with them,because they're idiots.
Well, I mean, if they could godown and pay a price and have a
legit sex worker take care ofthem, maybe they wouldn't be so
mad.
I don't know, maybe theywouldn't be so angry.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Well, you had mentioned immortality and um,
not immortality I was gonna saythis is the vampire diaries no,
not the vampire diaries.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Um morals morals, morality, morality, yes sorry
about that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Um, and you know the the.
The problem is is we have somany immoral people right now on
the streets that it's like wecan just do anything we want in
front of anybody that we want.
And so I really do think thatthe fear is, if I had a brothel
on the corner and I got kidswalking to school, is there
(15:56):
somebody out there on the cornerwith a sandwich sign on them
going, hey, come on in two forone two for one.
Yeah, rules and regulations, butwe know how that works too.
Yeah, now you know, I wouldargue that it could be
controlled, and I would arguethat it could be regulated just
as you think it can.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Just because there's a church on the corner, I don't
see everybody breaking the doordown to get in there well, and I
mean you see more sexuallyexplicit material on a you know
evening show anymore than you doanywhere else.
These kids are exposed to itevery day.
And morals are a personal issue, in my opinion.
Your morals, my morals, theirmorals, they're all different.
(16:41):
You know where we draw the line, where we cross the line,
things like that, and so I Ithink that's another show right
there I think it is you know ourmorals and our principles and
our standards.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think that's a whole, whole other show.
It is um, but yeah, I get whatyou're saying.
You know, I gotta be honestwith I got mixed feelings about
it because I don't like to seeanybody selling their bodies,
right.
I don't like to see anybodyusing their body in that way.
I mean, I feel we were createdfor a different reason and so I
(17:14):
don't like seeing anybody usingour bodies in that way.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I could make that argument, though, for military
people who sign up for themilitary.
You, you know your governmentproperty, and they'll tell you
things like if uncle sam wantedyou to have a wife, they'd
issued you one so you know when,when you sell your, your body
to the united states governmentfor the military, they own you
top to bottom, in and out, leftand right, your morals, your
(17:39):
values, your opinions,everything.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So I, I guess, I just don't, I don't see it any
different I, I think that again,you know now my mind is going
to moral standards andprinciples.
I mean that's that's I mean thatthat's what stops each of us
from not killing, not, you know,not being deceitful, not
participating in thievery, allthose things, and so you kind of
(18:05):
go.
Is that for me?
No, is it something I wouldadvocate?
No, but I do see your pointthat if it's regulated and
you're selling a service and wecan protect people, listen, it's
supply and demand.
It's out there, whether we likeit or not.
It's out there.
I'm not advocating for it, butI'm saying it's out there,
whether we like it or not.
Right, it's out there.
I'm not advocating for it, butI'm saying it's out there.
Yeah, and you know the humanrights part of it.
(18:28):
You know whether you're a sexworker or not.
You got rights andunfortunately, in the united
states, if something happens toa sex worker and we already
talked about this it's almostlike they don't have any rights.
You don't have the right totalk, you don't have rights to
anything.
You're a low-life, you knowprostitute or whatever.
(18:48):
Well, what about the guy thatcame out looking for, or what
about the gal that came outlooking for him?
And so you know, like I said, Ido kind of have some mixed
feelings about it, see, and I'mall for unionizing sex workers.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Get them on the paper , get them on the laws, get them
on the books.
Let's start protecting thesepeople and let's make them no
more less than disappeared, nomore less than missing, no more
(19:26):
less than missing, no more lessthan beat up, because, honestly,
if that's their choice, that'stheir choice in life and you
know good for them.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I mean, I'd love to make that kind of money do you
think that that type of serviceopen and freely advertised, as
it is in the sex trafficking ofchildren?
Do you think that it's like ahyper sexualization?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
yeah, I mean, it's not that far of a reach bobby?
no, I, I really don't, becauseyou don't see, I mean I I guess
I I don't know, but you know youdon't really hear about kids
running through the red lightdistrict.
You don't hear about because ofthe regulations.
Sure, you know?
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat we can do to protect them
(20:10):
that will not catapult them intomainstream.
I mean we've got billboards forsex shops along i-80, you know,
I mean the kids, what aboutthat?
It's not sex work, but it's asex shop.
What are you going to do aboutthat with your kids?
You say, okay, well, maybe youneed to have the sex talk a
little earlier with them, or you, you know something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Do you have, since you did bring up Netherlands and
it is so prevalent over thereas being legalized?
Did you take a look at all attheir increased risk of sexually
transmitted diseases?
You know, because sometimesit's hard to get treatment or
it's hard to get preventativemeasures.
Is it lower?
(20:53):
Is is the violence against sexworkers lower so?
In the netherlands than it isin the united states.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I don't know when it comes to stis and stds.
It it's becoming a problemeverywhere, regardless of
whether sex work is legalized ornot, and especially, you know,
even here in iowa we have asevere outbreak of stds that are
being untreated and passedaround.
It's not just a sex workerproblem, it's.
(21:21):
It's an everybody problem, youknow, and I'm talking even
people your age and older whoare going into retirement
villages and things like that.
There are heightened, you know,instances of chlamydia and
things like that being passedaround do you think that it
would?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
it would lower, you know, because right now, as a
sex worker, you go in to gethelp and you're looked down upon
, right and you could getregular testing, you could get
you know the.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The public health would step in and say hey, we
have monthly testing, we havefree condoms, we have you know
things like that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That would actually help them to stay safe and to
not spread those diseases so didyou know that new zealand um
they've decriminalized work,meaning it's not illegal to
engage in sex work?
But, it's also not regulatedRight, so they don't have
anything to protect them.
They really don't have.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And I think that's more dangerous than having it
criminalized, just because it'salmost kind of like a Wild West
thing.
You've got no laws, noregulations, no protections and
the police aren't going to stepin yeah, yeah, well, I know
where you stand, yeah unionizethem, unionize sex work is real
(22:41):
work yeah local union sex 104 or69, oh man, that was.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Hey, you got to give me credit for that one, so you
know, again, I I guess I don'tsee it.
As you know, even I I thinkabout um, strip joints and stuff
.
I don't think that anybody isout there exploiting anybody
other than themselves.
If I choose to get on a poll,I'm exploding, my exploiting
myself.
And so to blame men, to blamemen or other people for
(23:19):
exploiting them, I think that'ssilliness.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You're doing it to yourself yeah, when we're
talking about, like, the willingparticipants, absolutely yeah,
yeah, I mean you're sellingyourself one way or the other.
You're selling yourself One wayor the other.
You're selling yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, I guess, from a respect standpoint, from a, I
don't want to treat my body thatway and I have respect for what
I was created as and who I wascreated after.
Because I was created after theperfect king, so were you.
I personally would not advocatefor it.
(23:52):
Now I see your points, don'tget me wrong.
I see your points because Ithink that it could bring some
control, some lawful safety,some laws that sort of thing,
regulations that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
But from my perspective, no, yeah, I guess
we disagree on that we agreetoday.
I mean, yeah, I don't know,it's a bit, like I said, been a
year and a half is thatsomething I needed to know?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
see you talk about the things that I say listen,
you're all in my business,anyways.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I got a visual on that.
I can't get it out of thingsthat I say listen, you're all in
my business, anyways, I got avisual on that.
I can't get it out of my head.
That's because you're old.
Here comes mom.
You're my mom, you, I have onesister.
You've had sex twice, period,that's it.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Okay, that's right, and don't you forget it.
Don't you forget it.
Well, bobby, that was gooddiscussion.
I mean it really was, and I'mglad.
I'm glad you brought it up.
Maybe our listeners have somecomments related to it and maybe
they've had some thoughtsassociated with it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Maybe they've been to the red light district and they
can tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Or maybe they're sex workers.
And they would like to givetheir point of view, absolutely
no judgment, but maybe they'reon the other side of the coin
too and they're saying, nah, Ireally am not for advocating for
that for sex workers, and we'dlike to hear from both sides.
And so you know, if you've gotsome comments or you know
(25:18):
anything you'd like to talk tous about, as it relates to that,
we're certainly open to hearingit and discussing it, and if
you have another topic, we'reopen to that too.
But we are going to get back tomoral standards and values.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I can tell you that one and I'm not soliciting it,
so please don't message me.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Wait a minute.
You just solicited yourself.
After a year and a half, I'mtelling you, but no, thank you
Well.
I think that's all we have fortoday and we appreciate you
joining us here at the RabbitHole Studio.
Be sure to follow us.
We look forward to spendingtime with you each week.
Please like us and if you havesome positive feedback for us or
(25:57):
you have a topic, we're reallyinterested in your topics.
It's not that we're running outof them, because, man, we just
keep filling up on topic aftertopic, but we'd like to hear
what you want us to talk about.
But drop us a short email atboomerandjenexer at gmailcom.
If you have hate mail, not somuch.
We'll take your constructivecriticism, but we're not going
(26:18):
to take your hate mail.
We just turn that stuff off.
So until next week.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I'm Jane Burt and I'm Bobbi Joy and you're stuck with
us.
Peace out Later.
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Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.