November 9, 2023 • 34 mins
Meet Joseph and Mary, the power behind Historic First Church of Brooklyn. Joseph was business in Los Angeles, with his corporate job, and a screenwriting gigs when he got the calling to take over the 99 year old family-run ministry. His wife, Mary, an HR professional with a heart for helping people, through a series of synchronicities, enabled her to join her husband. And the two relocated from LA to NY. Hear how they took their story telling and people relationship expertise to run and grow an amazing church in Brooklyn, NY. that changes people's lives everyday. Their spiritual journey has a powerful message for entrepreneurs.
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(00:00):
The risk takers, innovators, business owners, and they're a couple.
(00:14):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs, a series about couples who start a business together
without ending their relationship.
Hear their unique stories, get tips, advice, and a secret to their success.
Would you work with your spouse?
Hosted by Mickey and Tony, a couple of entrepreneurs.
(00:35):
Co-founders of Branding Shorts, a video production and creative content agency.
The screenwriter, an HR professional, and the bus garage that became a church.
Be Joseph and Mary, the amazing couple behind the historic first church.
(01:04):
Mary and Joseph, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
So if you guys want to tell us a little bit about what you do, who you are, that would
be great so our listeners know.
Okay, sure.
Well, my name is Joseph Clemens.
I'm a pastor, Joseph Clemens.
I'm pastor of First Church of God, historic First Church of God in Christ.
(01:26):
And my wife, Mary Clemens, is a wonderful, wonderful partner in this ministry that is
located on 221 Kingston Avenue in Crown Heights, in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn.
We are a 99-year-old church planted by my grandfather in 2024, succeeded by my uncle,
(01:53):
succeeded by my father.
And now I succeeded my father in 2019, December, and two months later, COVID hit.
So it has been a wonderful but challenging journey.
We are in a good place now and we're being really blessed.
(02:15):
And what did you guys do before you joined and started this adventure together, this
adventure together?
I was in the telecommunications industry and corporate sales, selling voice and data solutions
to corporations, but also moonlighting as a vocalist and screenwriter in Los Angeles.
(02:38):
And then I was doing that for years and still have passions in that.
It all comes down to the same thing, right?
It's all storytelling, right?
It's like getting engagement from storytelling to, because that gets people to listen, right?
And gets them to connect.
Absolutely true.
So, and I love your names because you're helping people with God and your names are
Joseph and Mary.
(02:59):
I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first one ever to say that to you guys.
I love it.
So, Mary, what was your background?
So currently, and has been a work in human resources, so I still have a regular job,
job every single day.
You know, you have the different backgrounds, you know, before you got in the church together.
What was it like when you made that move?
Because that's quite a change, right?
(03:21):
Yeah, it was a very interesting kind of a integration of how this all happened for us
to move to New York.
And I was working at the time and Joseph had already started seminary back in California
and he was asked to come and help his father.
So we went back to Los Angeles and we realized he came for a wedding and now we're being
(03:43):
asked to come to your dad's church, which Joseph has had an encounter with his father
over the years about the ministry and is coming back to help him with a church actually in
Connecticut.
So they came to an agreement.
He and his dad and Joseph came to a finished college here.
I do graduate theological seminary and I stayed back in California because I was in cert
(04:08):
and he was going to want to do this.
So I said, I'll stay here, you go and let's see how it works.
And things worked out together that I eventually I came like eight months later and here we
are.
So what is your balance?
Do you have roles?
Do you, what do you do together to keep the church running?
(04:29):
We both have a heart for people and that is the common ground that really we are both
passionate about serving people, meeting people's needs and that's in a, she married
did that in human resources.
Believe it or not, I do that in my writing.
(04:51):
It has always taken a kind of a ministry.
It's always been a moral to the story, a humanist sort of moral and spiritual take, you know,
on whatever I'm writing.
So we have that in us and that helps us to work together because we both have a common
(05:11):
goal.
Little stuff here and there that no, I don't think it should be this way.
No, I don't think she should be that way.
We normally have a disagreement about it.
And what we come up with is a blend of both ideas and it culminates into something that
is real.
Sometimes we talk to couples and say conflict is conflict or disagreements, but it helps
(05:34):
you get to a better solution because if you kind of push each other, right?
Do you guys feel that when you don't agree that you're pushing to a better solution?
Yes, I really do.
That's supposed to be the way our government is supposed to work, but it doesn't.
But in our household, it does actually work that way.
Yeah, we're nodding because we've worked together since 2008 and yes, yes, we've had
(05:58):
more than one disagreement.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have, yeah, artistic differences, but it also, it always comes
out to, oh yeah, okay, I can see what you mean.
Okay, well, let's go with that.
And then everybody likes the result of that conflict.
Just makes you push each other to be better.
(06:20):
It does.
How long have you guys been working together?
Well, since we've been here at the church, so probably, what, 20, 27, 16, 20, 15, 20,
15, 20, 16.
Yeah.
And Mary, I was going to ask you, like with the HR background and then helping people
(06:43):
with the church, what do you bring or what can you bring from your expertise in training
in the HR world into this that helped you guys with the church?
Well, the most important thing is that I treat people with respect.
I treat people with dignity.
I have to deal with people.
(07:05):
I hire, I terminate, I do.
Destinations, I do it all, right?
So I take that same approach with people.
My true instincts are as I'm a helper.
I like to help others, and so I go with a more of a servant heart to the people, and
I'm very truthful and I'm very, you know, kind of like an open book a little bit.
(07:28):
So I go in with that same approach that I'm here with the people where I work at this
organization, where I am today at work right now.
I treat people with respect.
I have an open door.
Come in.
We can discuss it.
We have just a normal human type respectful conversation I have on my wall with respect.
(07:49):
So we respect people.
So that's what I do at church and try not to take things personally.
And that's where Joseph and I can really, we have our conversations and we really try
to keep it level where it's not, you know, where we get our feelings heard or we just
try to like keep each other balanced because it is you dealing with people every day and
I deal with them every day.
(08:11):
It also helps people get jobs at work.
It's not a personnel agency, but people have come to her for advice and she has helped
them with their resumes, the way she treats people.
She is what people have named her the fragrance of our congregation, the fragrance of our church,
(08:32):
and she truly is.
How do you feel about that, Mary?
It's laughable.
But, you know, I mean, that's how they feel.
I'm grateful for that because it is about all about the people and it's been a great
experience so far.
I mean, I never thought I would be doing anything like this at all ever in my life.
Do you guys have different roles?
(08:54):
You take on different roles in the church.
Yeah, he's the pastor.
I'm, that's not, you know, my big thing.
I'm more of a behind the scenes type of person.
I want to help others.
I'm good at tactical.
I'm good at building relationships.
(09:15):
I'm good at, you know, trying to bring different avenues to the church.
So that's, I like that part of my part of the church.
I love the community part.
If I can be an activist for the community to build the church with the community, that's
what I would do.
(09:37):
I mean, that brings up an interesting question as you guys are talking through that.
It sounds like it's really important to get partners or build relationships to help the
church grow.
What's the key to doing that?
How do you guys do that?
She is an expert at it because she is an extrovert.
I'm not so good at it.
I want to be, and you would think so, being a preacher.
(09:57):
I stand up there, but I, on stage, I'm young.
Yeah, I'm the pulpit.
Yeah.
When walking down the street, she can strike up a conversation with anyone.
And I'm always like, honey, you can't just talk to everybody.
And she says, no, that's exactly what you do.
And she's very successful at it.
By success, I mean, it's always comes out to be a positive experience, a positive exchange.
(10:25):
So that really works well for the church.
And that's the way ministry should be.
It really, really should be, not to get real too spiritual in this context on this platform.
But that's the way Jesus was.
So you go out and you talk to people.
(10:46):
You meet people.
And people that don't look like you, people that are not from your background, that's
the way you need to be.
So she's leading me in doing that.
My role is the spiritual side in terms of building leaders in sermons and pastoral care.
(11:07):
People come to me with some fairly serious issues.
And I do enjoy being God speaking through me to speak to them.
That sounds great, because you guys have such great backgrounds that you've never brought
into this world that can really play a key role.
(11:28):
I was thinking, as you guys are talking about how you have some tough conversations, Joseph,
with where people have some issues, some challenges, and you try and help them get through that.
And then Mary, where you're in HR.
So you have challenges, right, with employees all the time.
What's the key to deal with those tough issues, whether it's employees that's having an employee
(11:49):
that's challenging to work with?
How do you talk to them, or whether it's someone who's having a tough time?
And I don't know where you draw that line, right, where there's a personal space where
you can like, how do you do that?
How do you deal with the substitutions, whether it's employees or the people in the church?
I think the key is empathy and listening, active listening.
(12:13):
It's so easy sometimes to, I mean, when you hear someone's stories, well, that's easy.
Why don't you just do this?
Why don't you see that, you know, you have that little voice in your head that is like,
man, but if you're really able to put yourself in their shoes with their background, what
(12:33):
tools they have, what you say, okay, I can see if I were in that position or in that
situation, I can see where they would react that way.
I understand.
So that helps you to relate number one, not judge number two, it then come up with something
(12:54):
that they can hear and act upon something that is palatable, but also practical for them
toward progress.
And then Mary, on your side, like, say you have a tough employee situation where the
employee is not really doing maybe what they'd like them to be doing, right?
But you have to have that.
I mean, I think I told you guys I worked at AmEx for 19 years and I managed a lot of people.
(13:17):
So everything didn't always go as you wanted it to go.
And sometimes you had a tough conversation with folks who were not going in the right
direction, right?
And how do you do that?
Like, what are the keys to having successful discussions with people to try and change
them, motivate them?
You know, for me, what has worked is that, you know, my boss, when I came, he says, you
(13:39):
know, you just bring so much peace here to everyone.
So I keep them to feel like they can trust me because if they don't trust me and they
don't feel like I have an open door and I'm easy to be, you know, approachable, they're
not going to come.
And I need to be able to be here where people feel comfortable coming.
They feel it's a confidential conversation until otherwise, they're easy.
(14:01):
You know, they just feel at ease.
And I think that's the key is being respectful to them.
And when they do come, I do listen.
But we have conversations.
And that's what it's all about.
I don't talk at people when they come in and sit in here.
We have a conversation.
And I get to hear what it is and try to help them resolve it.
(14:22):
But I also let them know what the consequences are for us.
No one ever walks out of this company terminated and don't know why.
I most certainly have conversations all the time.
So how do you divide?
How do you separate business and personal life on a daily basis?
Do you leave it all at the church?
(14:44):
Do you take it home with you?
Oh, no, it goes home.
It goes home.
Your question lets me know that we need to do more, be better about leaving it at the
church, but I don't and she doesn't.
(15:04):
And that's not so good.
And it's hard in ministry, in our defense, or at least in my defense.
You know, you're getting phone calls all the time.
I mean, I wish it were.
That's one thing I miss about the corporate world, even though sometimes I did proposals,
RFPs at night.
(15:25):
It wasn't every night.
And granted, I don't always get calls every night from parishioners or something like
that.
But it is consuming.
It is, you do take it home every night and on the weekends.
So yeah, you do take it home.
(15:47):
The one saving grace is that we are passionate about ministry and we're passionate about
people.
So that does help.
You know, if somebody calls you at home and they really need you, there's purpose in that.
So that is not as much purpose in a proposal other than financial.
But when it's people, there's passion and purpose in that.
(16:11):
So that helps.
That has to be so satisfying.
It is.
It is satisfying.
We need to take vacations more on a regular basis, but it is satisfying.
What sounds like it's more, we hear a lot from couples.
We say, hey, how's your work life balanced?
It's not work life balance.
(16:33):
It's work price integration.
I don't know if you guys feel the same way.
It's hard to get away.
It is.
It really is.
So I work seven days a week.
I work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
I don't get a day off.
So I just realize, I'm like, why am I tired all the time?
It's like, because I don't get a day off.
Because my Saturdays, I go to Brooklyn and I will do whatever it's going to take to,
(16:56):
if it's a meeting or if it's flyering, if it's whatever, I go.
And I'm there.
And Joseph is home writing his sermon.
So it is, but it's satisfying because I actually get to enjoy if I do a walk or have one of
the members go with me or we go shopping or we go, whatever it is.
I mean, I make it enjoyable for myself.
So, yeah.
(17:17):
Well, obviously, you're the nickname fragrance.
I don't think I had nicknames as nice as that when I work.
It's a big compliment for what you do.
Yeah.
And she wears it well.
Now, do you try and find time?
You try and like, let's schedule this like time where we're away from this stuff.
I mean, do you guys try and do that from time to time?
(17:39):
Well, I'll speak for Mary just a little bit on this.
Toot her horn, actually.
She put together a vacation to Canada a few months ago for us, and it was an amazing trip.
It's an amazing trip.
We went to, you know, like four different cities, Toronto, Quebec and about four cities.
(18:02):
And they were just, it was just wonderful.
And we, it was very restful.
We came back, we juvenated.
And that was the first time we had gone on vacation in about four years.
So that part is not good, but it was an amazing, amazing trip.
The answer is we need to do it more on a regular basis.
But when Mary does put it together, it's absolutely wonderful.
(18:29):
And how do they react to what you guys do, your family?
Very supportive.
They're in other states.
They're all, you know, Denver, California.
And in Norwalk, where my father and where my parents live, Norwalk, Connecticut, excuse
me, they're very, very supportive.
(18:49):
I wish they were closer, you know, and I wish Mary's family was closer.
They're in Los Angeles.
Wonderful sisters and great cooks, my Lord.
That's good.
You married very wisely.
Yeah.
I definitely married up.
We're Italian and we're all about food.
Oh, okay.
(19:10):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Yes.
So, yeah, they're all spread out, but they're very supportive and loving from a distance.
So how long have you guys been married?
2014.
We've been together for 20 years, 22 years.
(19:32):
Yeah.
We all have our comfort zones, right?
We only want to do this, right?
So do you feel, as because you're a couple versus being in your other worlds, corporate
worlds, that you can push each other more, right?
Do you feel out of your comfort zones where you could do things like if somebody in a
corporation said, hey, I want you to do this, you're like, forget about it.
But because you're a couple, like when you talk to each other, you have that ability
(19:56):
maybe to get yourselves out a little bit of your normal comfort zone to maybe do things
that end up being, well, I'm glad I did that.
You know, glad I tried that.
Yeah.
And I guess for me, it would have been Crown High Mutual Aid.
I never would have done anything like that before, but I pushed it because I felt like
I could and I did and it worked.
So, and it's not hard for me.
(20:16):
So it wasn't hard, but it was different.
And I feel like now if that worked, I can continue to keep pushing it with other groups
of people to help build the church.
So yeah, I mean, I feel like I have a dry to do that.
It's different because the stepping is completely out of what I do, but I don't mind it.
(20:37):
Actually, I find it interesting and the people that I'm meeting are very helpful to wanting
to help.
So it makes it easier.
Do you feel the same, Joseph, for some of the stuff you do?
Yeah.
It really has been an easy migration in terms of using the things that I used in the corporate
(21:01):
world in church because actually the church is running a business and I hate to say it
like that, but please let me explain.
Well, let me rephrase it.
The business of the church needs to be run like a business.
You don't run people like a business, but the business of the church.
(21:22):
So there's so many things that I do in the church even in, we have the edifice is really
large.
It sees 1400 people.
We don't have 1400 members, but we're growing, but and we rent to a school.
All the stuff that I have to do with the city and the building permits and doing things
(21:43):
by I have to work with bureaucracies all the time and getting things done from the city
of New York and lawyers.
It's only because of my corporate experience that I'm able to do and be comfortable with
that.
My father was not, my uncle was not, my grandfather was not, but these things that I've done,
(22:08):
even in advertising, in promoting things, I have a comfort level in that and that's
just translated right over into ministry.
Another question too is like, it's generational, right?
Yes.
What do you guys do?
So, I mean, you could have said no, right?
I guess I don't know if you had a request to come in.
You could have said no.
And it sounds like, you know, there's some apprehension, right?
(22:28):
And you're out on the other coast, right?
Doing all kinds of other things.
Like why yes?
Great question.
I said no for most of my adult life.
Yes, I was on the other coast, literally and figuratively.
(22:52):
And yeah, I ran away from it, Tony, for most of my life because I wanted to do my own thing.
I wanted to find my own way.
I really wanted to be in, you know, singing and screenwriting, making albums and movies.
And I did that for, you know, not movies, but screenwriting, but did music for a long,
(23:12):
long time.
And when I was in the corporate world, I became less and less enchanted with the rewards of
that.
And we came back to a wedding, my cousin's wedding in 2013.
And because my father had been asking me about, like I said, the ministry since I was in college
(23:35):
in actually high school.
And I had seen a lot of stuff in the church.
I was like, no, thanks.
But as I grew spiritually for myself, you know, not as part of the family business sort
of, so to speak, grew spiritually, we came back and one of the members at historic first
(24:01):
church said, we need you.
We need you.
And he spoke to me and what he was saying really, really resonated because there I heard purpose.
And I heard someone actually say that I was needed in the church and in the community.
(24:23):
And that that was different.
I had not heard that before.
It was always, you're supposed to do this because this is what our family has always
done.
That was a turn off.
Then this same parishioner spoke with my wife.
And we both talked about it and we were both growing spiritually in this really, really
(24:47):
beautiful church in Los Angeles, West Angeles Church of God and Christ.
And we said, this sounds like it's from above.
This this this sound and it was the first time that I could admit that or saw that.
So I started taking seminary courses.
I didn't I still didn't think, well, I'm not so sure about a church.
(25:11):
But I know ministry.
I need to be in ministry and I need to know what I'm talking about.
So I started and then the ball just kept on rolling.
But that was 2015 or 2013 and I'm 66.
So that tells you how long I said no.
And what was your reaction, Mary, when he said, hey, I think we should do this.
(25:33):
I actually supported him because I I kind of looked at it where he could take his screen
writing, his acting and the things that he's passionate about and incorporate that into
the church.
Because where we were in Los Angeles, he was connected to a writing group at another church.
(25:53):
He was connected to the writing group.
And then, you know, the field was was all there.
And I'm like, oh, gosh, it's such a big church.
You can, you know, not only do your ministry, but you can create those groups that you are
connected to now and have met your own church.
So I was looking at it from a standpoint, which he still can do is in the music, even
(26:14):
have a sound room or he can have his own, you know, sound room.
So for him, I saw that it would be a cut of a win-win for all the things he wanted to
do and be able to serve in the in the church.
So I was very supportive of it.
I just wasn't for sure if he was for sure.
So I kind of stayed back until he made his mind up.
(26:36):
And then, of course, my job went belly and I was a really big corporation.
I'm going, oh my God, how am I going to do?
And my doctor told us that I think I'm just going to come.
It worked out where I reached out to a friend, not even a friend, someone from Coca-Cola
and from years ago that I had interviewed with.
(26:57):
And she said, you can land anywhere you want to sit.
You can take the job.
And I'm like, wow.
So it was easy for me to make the move and come to New Jersey and have a job and be able
to do what I was doing.
So yeah.
That's awesome.
I have a synchronicity.
It's beautiful.
I love that.
(27:18):
It was meant to be.
Yes.
So if you were to give any other couples who are thinking about working together any advice,
what would you say?
One thing I would say is whoever is working together, I mean, stand your own ground.
Say who you are.
Don't get absorbed into the other person's thing.
(27:39):
You still have to be who you are, what you believe, what your thoughts and ideas are,
and stick to that because if it's working together to come to one piece, you can't just
let one person run the whole thing.
Then you have no identity and it doesn't feel the same.
But if you can work together and have your identity and make your points and hear each
(28:02):
other, it will work itself out and work together.
But keep your own identity and keep your thoughts and your ideas and work together with that
person.
I tend to have my moments with Joseph and then I forget about it and I let it go and
I move on.
And I don't hold on to a whole lot of stuff because if I do, then I'll be crazy forever.
(28:24):
So we work through it and I let it go.
Yeah.
I can't say it any better than that.
I would only say, which Mary has already alluded to, is that remembering that you're always
better together.
You're always, the outcome is always, comes out better together in your ideas, in the solutions.
(28:51):
So listen.
So really, really listen and know that you do love each other.
So whatever is being said, whatever is being done, it's out of love.
So that can't lose.
No matter how it's said or how it's put, don't get offended at how it's being said.
(29:16):
Know that it comes from a place of love and concern and the result is going to reflect
that.
So that's what's working for us.
Love it.
The people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's an excellent, excellent advice that anybody should listen to.
And I have to tell you too that the saying goes, is do as you say and tell people to
(29:39):
do.
What is this saying that you tell people to do as you want them to do, but you don't
do it?
One of the things that we do do in this church, and I know that a lot of pastors and pastors
wise would disagree with it, but we do what we ask the others to do.
We're not too big to say, can you help us do this?
And then we don't do it.
(30:00):
No, if they need help, we will do it too.
And they like that servant.
They like that we are leaders that will also be in the trenches with them.
That a lot of people don't do.
And that gains us a lot of respect.
And I appreciate that because I'm not too good to go and do something that I'm asking
you all to do.
We believe in that.
Yeah.
(30:21):
There have been other, what in our church, they call them first ladies, you know.
There have been other church wives or pastors wives that have tried to get married.
Don't know.
Don't do that.
Don't know.
You're supposed to do that.
You're supposed to do that.
And she's like, you know, she's polite to them, but she's like, I, that's not in me to,
(30:46):
to not cook in the kitchen or not to do things or to think bottom line that I'm too good
to do that.
And, and I feel the same way.
We had this, what we call, hallelujah night, which was a Tuesday night, which was an alternative
to Halloween.
And we had this wonderful party.
It's like a hundred kids came in their parents.
(31:08):
It was, it was one of cotton candy can.
And it was just, it was really, really, really nice.
And afterwards I'm just naturally, you know, I'm cleaning up and I'm, you know, sweeping
floors and, you know, things like that.
And two of the people were surprised at that and gave me all sorts of, you know, kudos
for that because they had not seen that in that church or any other church that they had
(31:32):
been to.
And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's, that's not good.
Thanks, but that's, that's not a good thing.
But, but that's who we are.
So I would say the other couples that in your project set yourself as an example to the
people that you're working with.
And I guess the word is humility.
(31:56):
So humility hopefully comes natural to you, but it's also good for business.
You know, it really is because people, people watch and people have their perceptions and
you'll get more out of people by with humility than, than anything else as a leader.
(32:18):
That's great.
So you're leading by example, not just like, I'm not just telling you to do this, like,
watch me.
Right.
You know, I have no problem doing it myself, right?
And that gains this natural scholarship, right?
That's right.
That some people that when they're just telling you what to do, right, they're like, yeah,
fine.
I can't wait to get out of here.
Right.
So.
And I think that that's the connection where we work really well together because if
(32:40):
he was different and wasn't a, you know, in that same spirit that I am, this would not
work.
It just wouldn't.
It just wouldn't work.
But we both are like, let's just go in and just do it.
Right.
It works.
You guys are amazing.
I have to say that just talking to you guys and we haven't met you guys at least this
way before and you guys are just, we're ready to follow you right now.
(33:01):
So we have no problem.
You guys are what you, what you guys could, you know, changing from what you did.
To moving to this world and then what you're doing and the way you're doing it is just
phenomenal.
Right.
So I mean, especially with everything going on in the world today, we need more of this.
Right.
I mean, it's like, there's not enough of this.
(33:22):
Right.
So, so what you guys, what a great example.
And we, we are happy that you guys are joining us today so we can share some of this.
Other people would say, look at this.
Right.
Bless you.
So with these folks who know, I know, I bless you guys for being part of this.
Thank you so much for being a guest on our show.
Thank you for having us.
Anthony.
(33:42):
Thank you.
For more info about our guests and their church, visit historicfirstchurch.org.
For more episodes, visit brandingshorts.com forward slash podcast.
Thanks for listening.
The risk takers, innovators, business owners, and they're a couple.
(00:14):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs, a series about couples who start a business together
without ending their relationship.
Hear their unique stories, get tips, advice, and a secret to their success.
Would you work with your spouse?
Hosted by Mickey and Tony, a couple of entrepreneurs.
(00:35):
Co-founders of Branding Shorts, a video production and creative content agency.
The screenwriter, an HR professional, and the bus garage that became a church.
Be Joseph and Mary, the amazing couple behind the historic first church.
(01:04):
Mary and Joseph, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
So if you guys want to tell us a little bit about what you do, who you are, that would
be great so our listeners know.
Okay, sure.
Well, my name is Joseph Clemens.
I'm a pastor, Joseph Clemens.
I'm pastor of First Church of God, historic First Church of God in Christ.
(01:26):
And my wife, Mary Clemens, is a wonderful, wonderful partner in this ministry that is
located on 221 Kingston Avenue in Crown Heights, in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn.
We are a 99-year-old church planted by my grandfather in 2024, succeeded by my uncle,
(01:53):
succeeded by my father.
And now I succeeded my father in 2019, December, and two months later, COVID hit.
So it has been a wonderful but challenging journey.
We are in a good place now and we're being really blessed.
(02:15):
And what did you guys do before you joined and started this adventure together, this
adventure together?
I was in the telecommunications industry and corporate sales, selling voice and data solutions
to corporations, but also moonlighting as a vocalist and screenwriter in Los Angeles.
(02:38):
And then I was doing that for years and still have passions in that.
It all comes down to the same thing, right?
It's all storytelling, right?
It's like getting engagement from storytelling to, because that gets people to listen, right?
And gets them to connect.
Absolutely true.
So, and I love your names because you're helping people with God and your names are
Joseph and Mary.
(02:59):
I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first one ever to say that to you guys.
I love it.
So, Mary, what was your background?
So currently, and has been a work in human resources, so I still have a regular job,
job every single day.
You know, you have the different backgrounds, you know, before you got in the church together.
What was it like when you made that move?
Because that's quite a change, right?
(03:21):
Yeah, it was a very interesting kind of a integration of how this all happened for us
to move to New York.
And I was working at the time and Joseph had already started seminary back in California
and he was asked to come and help his father.
So we went back to Los Angeles and we realized he came for a wedding and now we're being
(03:43):
asked to come to your dad's church, which Joseph has had an encounter with his father
over the years about the ministry and is coming back to help him with a church actually in
Connecticut.
So they came to an agreement.
He and his dad and Joseph came to a finished college here.
I do graduate theological seminary and I stayed back in California because I was in cert
(04:08):
and he was going to want to do this.
So I said, I'll stay here, you go and let's see how it works.
And things worked out together that I eventually I came like eight months later and here we
are.
So what is your balance?
Do you have roles?
Do you, what do you do together to keep the church running?
(04:29):
We both have a heart for people and that is the common ground that really we are both
passionate about serving people, meeting people's needs and that's in a, she married
did that in human resources.
Believe it or not, I do that in my writing.
(04:51):
It has always taken a kind of a ministry.
It's always been a moral to the story, a humanist sort of moral and spiritual take, you know,
on whatever I'm writing.
So we have that in us and that helps us to work together because we both have a common
(05:11):
goal.
Little stuff here and there that no, I don't think it should be this way.
No, I don't think she should be that way.
We normally have a disagreement about it.
And what we come up with is a blend of both ideas and it culminates into something that
is real.
Sometimes we talk to couples and say conflict is conflict or disagreements, but it helps
(05:34):
you get to a better solution because if you kind of push each other, right?
Do you guys feel that when you don't agree that you're pushing to a better solution?
Yes, I really do.
That's supposed to be the way our government is supposed to work, but it doesn't.
But in our household, it does actually work that way.
Yeah, we're nodding because we've worked together since 2008 and yes, yes, we've had
(05:58):
more than one disagreement.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have, yeah, artistic differences, but it also, it always comes
out to, oh yeah, okay, I can see what you mean.
Okay, well, let's go with that.
And then everybody likes the result of that conflict.
Just makes you push each other to be better.
(06:20):
It does.
How long have you guys been working together?
Well, since we've been here at the church, so probably, what, 20, 27, 16, 20, 15, 20,
15, 20, 16.
Yeah.
And Mary, I was going to ask you, like with the HR background and then helping people
(06:43):
with the church, what do you bring or what can you bring from your expertise in training
in the HR world into this that helped you guys with the church?
Well, the most important thing is that I treat people with respect.
I treat people with dignity.
I have to deal with people.
(07:05):
I hire, I terminate, I do.
Destinations, I do it all, right?
So I take that same approach with people.
My true instincts are as I'm a helper.
I like to help others, and so I go with a more of a servant heart to the people, and
I'm very truthful and I'm very, you know, kind of like an open book a little bit.
(07:28):
So I go in with that same approach that I'm here with the people where I work at this
organization, where I am today at work right now.
I treat people with respect.
I have an open door.
Come in.
We can discuss it.
We have just a normal human type respectful conversation I have on my wall with respect.
(07:49):
So we respect people.
So that's what I do at church and try not to take things personally.
And that's where Joseph and I can really, we have our conversations and we really try
to keep it level where it's not, you know, where we get our feelings heard or we just
try to like keep each other balanced because it is you dealing with people every day and
I deal with them every day.
(08:11):
It also helps people get jobs at work.
It's not a personnel agency, but people have come to her for advice and she has helped
them with their resumes, the way she treats people.
She is what people have named her the fragrance of our congregation, the fragrance of our church,
(08:32):
and she truly is.
How do you feel about that, Mary?
It's laughable.
But, you know, I mean, that's how they feel.
I'm grateful for that because it is about all about the people and it's been a great
experience so far.
I mean, I never thought I would be doing anything like this at all ever in my life.
Do you guys have different roles?
(08:54):
You take on different roles in the church.
Yeah, he's the pastor.
I'm, that's not, you know, my big thing.
I'm more of a behind the scenes type of person.
I want to help others.
I'm good at tactical.
I'm good at building relationships.
(09:15):
I'm good at, you know, trying to bring different avenues to the church.
So that's, I like that part of my part of the church.
I love the community part.
If I can be an activist for the community to build the church with the community, that's
what I would do.
(09:37):
I mean, that brings up an interesting question as you guys are talking through that.
It sounds like it's really important to get partners or build relationships to help the
church grow.
What's the key to doing that?
How do you guys do that?
She is an expert at it because she is an extrovert.
I'm not so good at it.
I want to be, and you would think so, being a preacher.
(09:57):
I stand up there, but I, on stage, I'm young.
Yeah, I'm the pulpit.
Yeah.
When walking down the street, she can strike up a conversation with anyone.
And I'm always like, honey, you can't just talk to everybody.
And she says, no, that's exactly what you do.
And she's very successful at it.
By success, I mean, it's always comes out to be a positive experience, a positive exchange.
(10:25):
So that really works well for the church.
And that's the way ministry should be.
It really, really should be, not to get real too spiritual in this context on this platform.
But that's the way Jesus was.
So you go out and you talk to people.
(10:46):
You meet people.
And people that don't look like you, people that are not from your background, that's
the way you need to be.
So she's leading me in doing that.
My role is the spiritual side in terms of building leaders in sermons and pastoral care.
(11:07):
People come to me with some fairly serious issues.
And I do enjoy being God speaking through me to speak to them.
That sounds great, because you guys have such great backgrounds that you've never brought
into this world that can really play a key role.
(11:28):
I was thinking, as you guys are talking about how you have some tough conversations, Joseph,
with where people have some issues, some challenges, and you try and help them get through that.
And then Mary, where you're in HR.
So you have challenges, right, with employees all the time.
What's the key to deal with those tough issues, whether it's employees that's having an employee
(11:49):
that's challenging to work with?
How do you talk to them, or whether it's someone who's having a tough time?
And I don't know where you draw that line, right, where there's a personal space where
you can like, how do you do that?
How do you deal with the substitutions, whether it's employees or the people in the church?
I think the key is empathy and listening, active listening.
(12:13):
It's so easy sometimes to, I mean, when you hear someone's stories, well, that's easy.
Why don't you just do this?
Why don't you see that, you know, you have that little voice in your head that is like,
man, but if you're really able to put yourself in their shoes with their background, what
(12:33):
tools they have, what you say, okay, I can see if I were in that position or in that
situation, I can see where they would react that way.
I understand.
So that helps you to relate number one, not judge number two, it then come up with something
(12:54):
that they can hear and act upon something that is palatable, but also practical for them
toward progress.
And then Mary, on your side, like, say you have a tough employee situation where the
employee is not really doing maybe what they'd like them to be doing, right?
But you have to have that.
I mean, I think I told you guys I worked at AmEx for 19 years and I managed a lot of people.
(13:17):
So everything didn't always go as you wanted it to go.
And sometimes you had a tough conversation with folks who were not going in the right
direction, right?
And how do you do that?
Like, what are the keys to having successful discussions with people to try and change
them, motivate them?
You know, for me, what has worked is that, you know, my boss, when I came, he says, you
(13:39):
know, you just bring so much peace here to everyone.
So I keep them to feel like they can trust me because if they don't trust me and they
don't feel like I have an open door and I'm easy to be, you know, approachable, they're
not going to come.
And I need to be able to be here where people feel comfortable coming.
They feel it's a confidential conversation until otherwise, they're easy.
(14:01):
You know, they just feel at ease.
And I think that's the key is being respectful to them.
And when they do come, I do listen.
But we have conversations.
And that's what it's all about.
I don't talk at people when they come in and sit in here.
We have a conversation.
And I get to hear what it is and try to help them resolve it.
(14:22):
But I also let them know what the consequences are for us.
No one ever walks out of this company terminated and don't know why.
I most certainly have conversations all the time.
So how do you divide?
How do you separate business and personal life on a daily basis?
Do you leave it all at the church?
(14:44):
Do you take it home with you?
Oh, no, it goes home.
It goes home.
Your question lets me know that we need to do more, be better about leaving it at the
church, but I don't and she doesn't.
(15:04):
And that's not so good.
And it's hard in ministry, in our defense, or at least in my defense.
You know, you're getting phone calls all the time.
I mean, I wish it were.
That's one thing I miss about the corporate world, even though sometimes I did proposals,
RFPs at night.
(15:25):
It wasn't every night.
And granted, I don't always get calls every night from parishioners or something like
that.
But it is consuming.
It is, you do take it home every night and on the weekends.
So yeah, you do take it home.
(15:47):
The one saving grace is that we are passionate about ministry and we're passionate about
people.
So that does help.
You know, if somebody calls you at home and they really need you, there's purpose in that.
So that is not as much purpose in a proposal other than financial.
But when it's people, there's passion and purpose in that.
(16:11):
So that helps.
That has to be so satisfying.
It is.
It is satisfying.
We need to take vacations more on a regular basis, but it is satisfying.
What sounds like it's more, we hear a lot from couples.
We say, hey, how's your work life balanced?
It's not work life balance.
(16:33):
It's work price integration.
I don't know if you guys feel the same way.
It's hard to get away.
It is.
It really is.
So I work seven days a week.
I work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
I don't get a day off.
So I just realize, I'm like, why am I tired all the time?
It's like, because I don't get a day off.
Because my Saturdays, I go to Brooklyn and I will do whatever it's going to take to,
(16:56):
if it's a meeting or if it's flyering, if it's whatever, I go.
And I'm there.
And Joseph is home writing his sermon.
So it is, but it's satisfying because I actually get to enjoy if I do a walk or have one of
the members go with me or we go shopping or we go, whatever it is.
I mean, I make it enjoyable for myself.
So, yeah.
(17:17):
Well, obviously, you're the nickname fragrance.
I don't think I had nicknames as nice as that when I work.
It's a big compliment for what you do.
Yeah.
And she wears it well.
Now, do you try and find time?
You try and like, let's schedule this like time where we're away from this stuff.
I mean, do you guys try and do that from time to time?
(17:39):
Well, I'll speak for Mary just a little bit on this.
Toot her horn, actually.
She put together a vacation to Canada a few months ago for us, and it was an amazing trip.
It's an amazing trip.
We went to, you know, like four different cities, Toronto, Quebec and about four cities.
(18:02):
And they were just, it was just wonderful.
And we, it was very restful.
We came back, we juvenated.
And that was the first time we had gone on vacation in about four years.
So that part is not good, but it was an amazing, amazing trip.
The answer is we need to do it more on a regular basis.
But when Mary does put it together, it's absolutely wonderful.
(18:29):
And how do they react to what you guys do, your family?
Very supportive.
They're in other states.
They're all, you know, Denver, California.
And in Norwalk, where my father and where my parents live, Norwalk, Connecticut, excuse
me, they're very, very supportive.
(18:49):
I wish they were closer, you know, and I wish Mary's family was closer.
They're in Los Angeles.
Wonderful sisters and great cooks, my Lord.
That's good.
You married very wisely.
Yeah.
I definitely married up.
We're Italian and we're all about food.
Oh, okay.
(19:10):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Yes.
So, yeah, they're all spread out, but they're very supportive and loving from a distance.
So how long have you guys been married?
2014.
We've been together for 20 years, 22 years.
(19:32):
Yeah.
We all have our comfort zones, right?
We only want to do this, right?
So do you feel, as because you're a couple versus being in your other worlds, corporate
worlds, that you can push each other more, right?
Do you feel out of your comfort zones where you could do things like if somebody in a
corporation said, hey, I want you to do this, you're like, forget about it.
But because you're a couple, like when you talk to each other, you have that ability
(19:56):
maybe to get yourselves out a little bit of your normal comfort zone to maybe do things
that end up being, well, I'm glad I did that.
You know, glad I tried that.
Yeah.
And I guess for me, it would have been Crown High Mutual Aid.
I never would have done anything like that before, but I pushed it because I felt like
I could and I did and it worked.
So, and it's not hard for me.
(20:16):
So it wasn't hard, but it was different.
And I feel like now if that worked, I can continue to keep pushing it with other groups
of people to help build the church.
So yeah, I mean, I feel like I have a dry to do that.
It's different because the stepping is completely out of what I do, but I don't mind it.
(20:37):
Actually, I find it interesting and the people that I'm meeting are very helpful to wanting
to help.
So it makes it easier.
Do you feel the same, Joseph, for some of the stuff you do?
Yeah.
It really has been an easy migration in terms of using the things that I used in the corporate
(21:01):
world in church because actually the church is running a business and I hate to say it
like that, but please let me explain.
Well, let me rephrase it.
The business of the church needs to be run like a business.
You don't run people like a business, but the business of the church.
(21:22):
So there's so many things that I do in the church even in, we have the edifice is really
large.
It sees 1400 people.
We don't have 1400 members, but we're growing, but and we rent to a school.
All the stuff that I have to do with the city and the building permits and doing things
(21:43):
by I have to work with bureaucracies all the time and getting things done from the city
of New York and lawyers.
It's only because of my corporate experience that I'm able to do and be comfortable with
that.
My father was not, my uncle was not, my grandfather was not, but these things that I've done,
(22:08):
even in advertising, in promoting things, I have a comfort level in that and that's
just translated right over into ministry.
Another question too is like, it's generational, right?
Yes.
What do you guys do?
So, I mean, you could have said no, right?
I guess I don't know if you had a request to come in.
You could have said no.
And it sounds like, you know, there's some apprehension, right?
(22:28):
And you're out on the other coast, right?
Doing all kinds of other things.
Like why yes?
Great question.
I said no for most of my adult life.
Yes, I was on the other coast, literally and figuratively.
(22:52):
And yeah, I ran away from it, Tony, for most of my life because I wanted to do my own thing.
I wanted to find my own way.
I really wanted to be in, you know, singing and screenwriting, making albums and movies.
And I did that for, you know, not movies, but screenwriting, but did music for a long,
(23:12):
long time.
And when I was in the corporate world, I became less and less enchanted with the rewards of
that.
And we came back to a wedding, my cousin's wedding in 2013.
And because my father had been asking me about, like I said, the ministry since I was in college
(23:35):
in actually high school.
And I had seen a lot of stuff in the church.
I was like, no, thanks.
But as I grew spiritually for myself, you know, not as part of the family business sort
of, so to speak, grew spiritually, we came back and one of the members at historic first
(24:01):
church said, we need you.
We need you.
And he spoke to me and what he was saying really, really resonated because there I heard purpose.
And I heard someone actually say that I was needed in the church and in the community.
(24:23):
And that that was different.
I had not heard that before.
It was always, you're supposed to do this because this is what our family has always
done.
That was a turn off.
Then this same parishioner spoke with my wife.
And we both talked about it and we were both growing spiritually in this really, really
(24:47):
beautiful church in Los Angeles, West Angeles Church of God and Christ.
And we said, this sounds like it's from above.
This this this sound and it was the first time that I could admit that or saw that.
So I started taking seminary courses.
I didn't I still didn't think, well, I'm not so sure about a church.
(25:11):
But I know ministry.
I need to be in ministry and I need to know what I'm talking about.
So I started and then the ball just kept on rolling.
But that was 2015 or 2013 and I'm 66.
So that tells you how long I said no.
And what was your reaction, Mary, when he said, hey, I think we should do this.
(25:33):
I actually supported him because I I kind of looked at it where he could take his screen
writing, his acting and the things that he's passionate about and incorporate that into
the church.
Because where we were in Los Angeles, he was connected to a writing group at another church.
(25:53):
He was connected to the writing group.
And then, you know, the field was was all there.
And I'm like, oh, gosh, it's such a big church.
You can, you know, not only do your ministry, but you can create those groups that you are
connected to now and have met your own church.
So I was looking at it from a standpoint, which he still can do is in the music, even
(26:14):
have a sound room or he can have his own, you know, sound room.
So for him, I saw that it would be a cut of a win-win for all the things he wanted to
do and be able to serve in the in the church.
So I was very supportive of it.
I just wasn't for sure if he was for sure.
So I kind of stayed back until he made his mind up.
(26:36):
And then, of course, my job went belly and I was a really big corporation.
I'm going, oh my God, how am I going to do?
And my doctor told us that I think I'm just going to come.
It worked out where I reached out to a friend, not even a friend, someone from Coca-Cola
and from years ago that I had interviewed with.
(26:57):
And she said, you can land anywhere you want to sit.
You can take the job.
And I'm like, wow.
So it was easy for me to make the move and come to New Jersey and have a job and be able
to do what I was doing.
So yeah.
That's awesome.
I have a synchronicity.
It's beautiful.
I love that.
(27:18):
It was meant to be.
Yes.
So if you were to give any other couples who are thinking about working together any advice,
what would you say?
One thing I would say is whoever is working together, I mean, stand your own ground.
Say who you are.
Don't get absorbed into the other person's thing.
(27:39):
You still have to be who you are, what you believe, what your thoughts and ideas are,
and stick to that because if it's working together to come to one piece, you can't just
let one person run the whole thing.
Then you have no identity and it doesn't feel the same.
But if you can work together and have your identity and make your points and hear each
(28:02):
other, it will work itself out and work together.
But keep your own identity and keep your thoughts and your ideas and work together with that
person.
I tend to have my moments with Joseph and then I forget about it and I let it go and
I move on.
And I don't hold on to a whole lot of stuff because if I do, then I'll be crazy forever.
(28:24):
So we work through it and I let it go.
Yeah.
I can't say it any better than that.
I would only say, which Mary has already alluded to, is that remembering that you're always
better together.
You're always, the outcome is always, comes out better together in your ideas, in the solutions.
(28:51):
So listen.
So really, really listen and know that you do love each other.
So whatever is being said, whatever is being done, it's out of love.
So that can't lose.
No matter how it's said or how it's put, don't get offended at how it's being said.
(29:16):
Know that it comes from a place of love and concern and the result is going to reflect
that.
So that's what's working for us.
Love it.
The people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's an excellent, excellent advice that anybody should listen to.
And I have to tell you too that the saying goes, is do as you say and tell people to
(29:39):
do.
What is this saying that you tell people to do as you want them to do, but you don't
do it?
One of the things that we do do in this church, and I know that a lot of pastors and pastors
wise would disagree with it, but we do what we ask the others to do.
We're not too big to say, can you help us do this?
And then we don't do it.
(30:00):
No, if they need help, we will do it too.
And they like that servant.
They like that we are leaders that will also be in the trenches with them.
That a lot of people don't do.
And that gains us a lot of respect.
And I appreciate that because I'm not too good to go and do something that I'm asking
you all to do.
We believe in that.
Yeah.
(30:21):
There have been other, what in our church, they call them first ladies, you know.
There have been other church wives or pastors wives that have tried to get married.
Don't know.
Don't do that.
Don't know.
You're supposed to do that.
You're supposed to do that.
And she's like, you know, she's polite to them, but she's like, I, that's not in me to,
(30:46):
to not cook in the kitchen or not to do things or to think bottom line that I'm too good
to do that.
And, and I feel the same way.
We had this, what we call, hallelujah night, which was a Tuesday night, which was an alternative
to Halloween.
And we had this wonderful party.
It's like a hundred kids came in their parents.
(31:08):
It was, it was one of cotton candy can.
And it was just, it was really, really, really nice.
And afterwards I'm just naturally, you know, I'm cleaning up and I'm, you know, sweeping
floors and, you know, things like that.
And two of the people were surprised at that and gave me all sorts of, you know, kudos
for that because they had not seen that in that church or any other church that they had
(31:32):
been to.
And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's, that's not good.
Thanks, but that's, that's not a good thing.
But, but that's who we are.
So I would say the other couples that in your project set yourself as an example to the
people that you're working with.
And I guess the word is humility.
(31:56):
So humility hopefully comes natural to you, but it's also good for business.
You know, it really is because people, people watch and people have their perceptions and
you'll get more out of people by with humility than, than anything else as a leader.
(32:18):
That's great.
So you're leading by example, not just like, I'm not just telling you to do this, like,
watch me.
Right.
You know, I have no problem doing it myself, right?
And that gains this natural scholarship, right?
That's right.
That some people that when they're just telling you what to do, right, they're like, yeah,
fine.
I can't wait to get out of here.
Right.
So.
And I think that that's the connection where we work really well together because if
(32:40):
he was different and wasn't a, you know, in that same spirit that I am, this would not
work.
It just wouldn't.
It just wouldn't work.
But we both are like, let's just go in and just do it.
Right.
It works.
You guys are amazing.
I have to say that just talking to you guys and we haven't met you guys at least this
way before and you guys are just, we're ready to follow you right now.
(33:01):
So we have no problem.
You guys are what you, what you guys could, you know, changing from what you did.
To moving to this world and then what you're doing and the way you're doing it is just
phenomenal.
Right.
So I mean, especially with everything going on in the world today, we need more of this.
Right.
I mean, it's like, there's not enough of this.
(33:22):
Right.
So, so what you guys, what a great example.
And we, we are happy that you guys are joining us today so we can share some of this.
Other people would say, look at this.
Right.
Bless you.
So with these folks who know, I know, I bless you guys for being part of this.
Thank you so much for being a guest on our show.
Thank you for having us.
Anthony.
(33:42):
Thank you.
For more info about our guests and their church, visit historicfirstchurch.org.
For more episodes, visit brandingshorts.com forward slash podcast.
Thanks for listening.
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