September 28, 2023 • 31 mins
In 2008, while traveling on business for her corporate job, Aliza Freud woke up in the middle of the night with an idea, and ran with it. She left her job at American Express and launched SheSpeaks, an award-winning influencer marketing program that creates compelling content which connects brands to millions of customers through the power of women’s voices. She joined forces with her husband, Josh McKay, and together they run SheSpeaks, to amplify a woman’s voice to create effective brand campaigns that influence millions across the country. How do they make it all work? Listen in and they will tell you.
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(00:00):
The risk takers, innovators, business owners, and they're a couple.
(00:14):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs, a series about couples who start a business together
without ending their relationship.
Hear their unique stories, get tips, advice, and a secret to their success.
Would you work with your spouse?
Hosted by Mickey and Tony, a couple of entrepreneurs.
(00:35):
Co-founders of Brandy Shorts.
They left corporate to pursue an idea that gives women the power to influence business.
Meet Elisa Freud and Josh McKay of SheSpeaks.com.
Welcome to the show.
(00:57):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs.
And by the way, I love the name of your podcast.
I have to say I saw the name and I thought that is so brilliant because you remember
it and it's totally exactly what the show is about.
So, so kudos to that.
Okay, so I'm Elisa Freud and Josh McKay.
(01:17):
And we together with a team run a company called SheSpeaks, which I launched back in
2008.
But in 2007, I launched as a beta.
The original idea for the business was that it would be a market research company focused
on women.
I came from a big brand as, you know, came from American Express, did a lot of market
(01:42):
research in my day.
I thought, oh gosh, this, there's got to be a better way to get really, really honest
and genuine authentic opinions from, from women.
The women's market was one that I was always very interested in.
And I understood the digital, which was just starting to grow again, back, this is back
(02:02):
in 2007.
I knew that it would help make research a lot easier.
So when SheSpeaks launched, it was really just a quantitative and qualitative market
research tool for companies that were interested in getting into a better understanding of the
hearts and minds of women.
So that's kind of where we started.
(02:23):
But what we figured out very quickly was that a lot of the women who were signing up to
be on our research panel were what you now call influencers.
But back then they were called, you know, socially, social media savvy or mom bloggers.
We had a lot of what you call mom bloggers now.
(02:43):
So we realized that there wasn't just an opportunity to get insights from this community, but also
maybe to also to do marketing.
So we evolved pretty quickly and what to what we are today, which is a company that is in
the influencer marketing space.
(03:04):
And we have a quarter of a million creators and influencers we get to work with, who are
part of SheSpeaks.
And our job is to find companies that are interested in partnering with these amazing
women to promote their products and services through the communities that these women have
built.
And we quarterback that process to ensure that we're getting great content.
(03:29):
And we then amplify and distribute that content.
That's great.
Awesome.
That's great.
I guess just to give you the back up a little bit too, it was great the way you overviewed
it.
Is like, did you start this right after you left the big company, American Express?
I was on a business trip.
My last role at AmEx was a global role and I was in Japan jet lagged, had a relatively
(03:52):
small newborn at home.
And I was thinking, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur with that idea.
And I was up in the middle of the night in Japan and came up with the idea.
And I have to say it was like a lot of years of thinking about it, but just couldn't figure
out what was the thing that I was going to be willing to leave.
(04:13):
I loved working there.
I was there for 10 years.
I had a great experience.
Josh and I met there.
So the company had been great to me.
It was just a matter of me kind of wanting to be an entrepreneur.
And as much as we like to say it, we said at American Express that it's great to have an
entrepreneurial spirit there.
You're not technically an entrepreneur.
You're working for a big company.
(04:34):
So if I wanted to get that experience, I kind of had to go off and do it.
So Josh, now how did you enter into the picture?
How did you guys work together on this business?
How did that work?
How did you guys team up?
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, this, our working together now is actually our second swing at this.
So initially, you know, Lisa founded the business as she said, it's really idea in 2007, got
(04:58):
it launched in 2008 into the market.
I joined the first time in 2009.
I was at Citibank.
And as the company started to, you know, get some progress and grow, we decided that it
needs somebody with my background, which is largely in finance and technology, which is
very complimentary to Alisa skills, which, you know, her background was most exclusively
(05:19):
in marketing in American Express.
So we worked together the first time for about three years.
And it didn't go that well.
You know, I think we at that point didn't really know how to work together.
We didn't know how to have a thing that was a business and a thing that was a family and
a thing that was a marriage and how to balance all of those.
(05:43):
You know, we were both very new entrepreneurs at that point.
You know, at least they had obviously been doing it for a year or so.
I came into it having only worked at the companies, not understanding what things like cashflow
are, you know, having to convince someone to join a three-person company and make that
leap rather than saying, hey, come work at American Express or Citibank.
(06:03):
And you know, our family was still relatively young.
You know, we had, you know, toddlers.
So I think, you know, the first time we just dove in really not thinking about it all that
much and what it would take.
We just sort of went, hey, we love each other.
It'll work.
It'll be great.
And it didn't.
And I ended up leaving, I think, what about 2011, 2012, went back and worked in some other
(06:27):
big companies for a while.
But then, you know, we decided to take another swing at it only about three years ago, a
little bit more.
And you know, I think we do a lot more about each other.
You know, our family was in a very different place.
Our children were older.
And you know, Lisa had a lot more experiences than an entrepreneur had been doing it for
over 10 years at that point.
So I think we had a much better foundation the second time and have a better foundation
(06:51):
now and are much, much better about understanding what it takes to keep all the various parts
of our lives successful.
I love this.
This is great as other people who are a couple think about starting a business.
You guys can talk about like what you did the first time versus what you changed the
second time.
So if you can maybe dive into it a little bit about like what you learned, right, the
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first time and then when you guys teamed up the second time, like what did you keep
doing or what did you change, you know, that kind of thing.
It was harder for us doing it the first time and you know, we literally shared almost a
desk in an office and we're looking at each other, you know, from nine to five every day.
(07:34):
Because the company was smaller, there was I'd say more crossover in the roles is, you
know, we had to kind of work on everything.
So we weren't able to create a separation of sort of say, this is, you know, your universe,
this is your universe and there's obviously going to be crossover on things we work on
together.
But that was all just not very well defined.
So every issue became our issue.
I would say the issues, you know, there was really no delineation between our home and
(07:59):
marriage life and the business life because it was just everything was a big issue and
a, you know, a small company to solve all the time.
And we're now, I think we having worked through a lot of, you know, things that happen in
a company, we now have the confidence that we can do that.
We have the tools to talk about it, make decisions to understand what our priorities
are.
(08:20):
And I think some of it is frankly just experience.
But I think also, you know, we didn't really understand going in that, you know, even though
we married and we live with each other, we need to have separate jobs.
And the company really requires us to have separate jobs.
And we didn't know that we just kind of jumped into a person said, Hey, we'll figure this
out.
I mean, it was a lot harder than we thought it would be.
(08:40):
We're smiling and nodding here because we can totally identify.
We started in 2008 and we totally identify with this path.
Yes.
And I think another part and Josh, I think hit on all of the right points about what
was, you know, what was different the first go around versus the second.
(09:01):
I think the other thing was when you're running a business and it's an entrepreneurial venture,
you're all in.
And you need to be in a place to where you can be all in.
And as Josh was saying, like our kids were much younger, it's like it's about share of
mind, right?
(09:22):
Like you have a certain amount of space in your head for things that you have to think
about.
And you have to be in a place where you are willing and able to put the time in and the
energy into to this in the way that it needs to to really grow it.
(09:45):
When Josh left, it felt like I could actually breathe because it wasn't all in in a way that
felt precarious.
In the early days, we were not as thoughtful about, okay, what are we willing to go all
in on?
You can go all in in terms of your time.
(10:06):
You can go in and all in in terms of your energy, your money.
Like you have to decide.
You have to be thoughtful about what am I willing to go all in on?
For us, we felt like, okay, we are not ready to go all in on this financially.
And so Josh took a step away.
The business grew.
(10:26):
We have an amazing team that has been the group that gets it all done.
And you build that over time.
So I think when you're all in on too many fronts that are not sustainable, you really
need to kind of take a step back and decide, okay, what is going to make this work.
Right.
Because it could be paralyzing when there's too many things you get nothing done.
(10:50):
Yes, about prioritization, right?
It's like, what do you prioritize?
What do you prioritize?
No, it's so well said.
Both of you guys so well said and great advice for other people that are thinking, whether
it's a couple or not a couple, just partners trying to work together in a business.
So as a couple, it's hard sometimes to get a feedback, right?
Because you're also married or a couple when you want to see something happen that's not
(11:12):
happening, right?
And then on the other end of it, when you don't agree, for example, to make decisions.
And then on the other part of it, it's like, you guys feel because you are a couple, you
can push each other more.
Like you guys can grow more in the business because you know each other so well.
You know, I think something that's really helped us over time and, you know, the second
time around being better at this is kind of a new, more nuanced understanding what each
(11:35):
other's skills are and what each other is, you know, what gets them excited about their
job.
I think that really helps us, you know, to your question about decision making, you know,
we will go into something and really appreciate each other's perspective.
And you know, you can sometimes, you know, something will come up and say, oh, we should
do this, we should do that.
And, you know, you learn sort of not to, you know, let your first gut reactions sort of
(11:57):
be the thing that will the day, but say, hey, you know, this person is accomplished and
has accomplished a lot and has skills that I don't, so I should listen.
You know, a lot of the pressures that were on us early on, the first time we did it was
because we were new entrepreneurs and, you know, we did some dumb things that increased
sort of the pressure on us.
But we got through that and getting through it and, you know, knowing that this business
(12:20):
has been around for over a decade.
And you know, through that, there's been a lot of decisions that have been made, some
of them together, some of them independently.
You know, frankly, having made bad decisions in the work through them, I think more than
anything else probably gives us a good foundation for, you know, thinking through anything that
does come up now.
And it sounds like trust as well.
(12:41):
You guys know where you're, who's strong, stronger in what area, and you trust each other,
knowing that to make decisions and move forward.
Do you feel you grow more or you can push each other more?
Do you could a colleague in a corporation and grow more in business?
You know, obviously being married, you have a much better understanding of the other person
(13:02):
than you do with any of your colleagues at work.
You have the ability to take risks now.
And because I think you're right, trust is probably the most important factor in the
relationship.
Even if we, one of us makes a mistake now, we say, okay, you know, you went on that with
the right intentions and I understand why you made the decision made.
It didn't work out.
Not all of them do, right?
You know, even now, you know, someone gave me some great advice.
(13:24):
Whoever toward American Express you said, you should always be making decisions.
If you get most of them right, you're going to do just fine and land.
And I think that's really good advice.
And you know, I think we've learned now to, to make decisions together and then kind of
trust the outcomes.
And you know, sometimes we'll give them a lot of thought because they need it.
Sometimes it'll be, hey, we'll have a 30 second conversation about something.
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But I think also we understand the right attention to give the issues now and really where we
need to focus our energies to help, you know, continue to grow it.
You know, trust is, is everything.
You know, learning about the right energy and investment to give to the issue of the
day also helps a lot.
So you're more comfortable getting out of your quote unquote comfort zone.
Yeah.
You might be in a corporate setting.
Yeah, I think that's her.
(14:05):
Yeah.
And I think the other thing that we think a lot about, and I certainly have talked a
lot with, with Josh about this, just my own perspective is that I've really shifted how
I think about failure.
I think if you're the kind of person who, you know, grew up wanting to be like a good
(14:26):
student, you know, we learn that don't fail.
Like it's, it's bad to fail.
But in reality, and quite frankly, you know, corporate America, I think has a lower tolerance
for failure, which is why I think you have a lot of people who spend a lot of time thinking
about how do I spin this?
So it's not a failure.
There was this great learning.
(14:47):
But I think when you're an entrepreneur running a business, that kind of stuff just falls
away.
The like sort of facade part of business, I think, like you really get very, very quickly
focused on what is really important to move things forward, not as much sort of the trappings
(15:09):
that I think sometimes can happen at big companies.
So because Josh and I came from big companies, I think in the beginning we got stuck in that
a little bit.
But then as like because, you know, I kind of continued on with it, learned really from
a lot of trial and error that failure is not fatal, that you, you just start to go, Oh,
(15:35):
these are the things that are really important.
This other stuff, not that important.
And I'm going to fail six times this week, but I'm going to succeed 10 times, right?
It's like, and as Josh said before, it's like, you know, as long as you're making on average
more, you know, good decisions than the ones that don't turn out to be the best decisions,
(15:55):
you're kind of moving ahead.
I just love that phrase failure is not fatal.
I mean, I love that.
I see that as a little line there.
Yeah, that's great.
So you guys have children.
So how do you separate your business life and your personal life when you're, you know,
in business together?
Yeah, I think it's, it's been a little bit probably organic.
(16:18):
I'd say it's not something we've done a lot of intentionality, but early on there was
really, there wasn't a lot of boundary between the work day and the family day.
And it was really hard.
And I think part of it, because it was new to each of us, you know, we hadn't done this
before.
Now, I feel like the two worlds don't very often, you know, leak together, you know,
(16:40):
when it gets to be towards dinner time, it's sort of, that's it.
And we becomes family time.
I'm not sure that's a conscious decision that we made, but I think that's the way that
it's worked out is, you know, we have the time during the day, we're working and we're,
you know, walking between each other's offices and sitting and talking, we're on meetings
together.
And then at the end of the day, pretty much stops, you know, obviously we occasionally
(17:02):
do some stuff at night or have a conversation because it comes up.
But I think part of the success of this time around has been having that delineation between
there's a thing that we do together that is called she speaks, but there's this other
thing called our family and our marriage that is more important.
And you know, you need to make sure we give each the attention that they need.
(17:24):
But the two of them don't necessarily overlap as much as these two.
Yeah, and that's, that's a credit more to Josh than me, quite frankly.
Josh is naturally or innately better at that than I am.
And I learned that's something I had to learn over time.
There's like a Yiddish word you can grisher, like, which is like spend a lot of time marinating
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in, in like the concern and, and like worrying and all of that.
But I've learned that that doesn't necessarily make me more productive in resolving it.
And if anything, it's more the exact opposite that you need to get away from a something
like a problem that you're grappling with for a period of time sometimes to actually
(18:12):
come back and solve it better.
I think it took me time to figure that out.
I think I thought, well, if I keep focusing on it, I'll figure it out.
That was not the case for me.
But once you get that conceptually, you realize, oh, this relates to so many other things.
Like if at the end of the day, I'm going to be better off if I turn it off for a while,
(18:36):
because I'm going to, when I come back to it, I'm going to be more productive.
And I think because the company and she speaks as such a, it's like a baby to me.
It's like a very much a part of who I am.
I couldn't walk away from it thinking, I'm doing, this is for my own good.
I had to feel like, okay, I can really see how this is not just good for me, but ultimately
(19:00):
it's good for the company.
Talk to us a little bit about the business and how you grew the business and what you
guys are most proud of.
As people who came from corporate America, we thought, oh, you know, I ran a P&L for
the portfolios I ran.
I know how to make money.
If you are starting a new business, the important thing to think about is where's my path to
(19:24):
making money?
Because you have to have a viable business.
It can't just be, I have got this really cool, sexy idea and someone's going to put a ton
of VC into my company and I'm going to, you know, get a ton of venture capital and then
I'm going to sell this.
Like, the digital space could be like the space we were in, could be that space, considered
(19:46):
that space.
And I think it was really important to learn very quickly that we had to have a business
model that worked, that A, you know you can make money and B, that you can scale.
We have a good idea, but there are lots of good ideas.
So how do you put it, create a business around it that actually makes money and then, you
(20:10):
know, how do you grow that?
So I think to answer your question about the business, you know, it's evolved in terms
of exactly what we sell, but at the end of the day, it's still the same premise, which
is we're in the women's space.
Basically we are about helping companies really, you know, interact and win with women, but
(20:34):
doing that in a very authentic way.
So that was always the principle behind it.
That's why it was called She Speaks.
It's from the perspective of the woman who's, you know, done all the work to build this
audience and knows how to create great content, which are influencers and our creators.
So that's the heart of what we do.
And then I think it was a matter of figuring out, okay, how do we make that into a business
(20:59):
model that works and then how do we scale it?
And now we're at a point when Josh joined, just since he's joined the second go around,
we've really accelerated.
And I think it was good timing for us because I kind of got into the business to a certain
point and having his thinking and his strategic thinking and a fresh perspective.
(21:24):
The having that fresh perspective, I think was really useful.
We have been able to create together with our team, a business that is, has a good foundation.
It's accelerated a lot in the last few years.
And we're now at a point where we're thinking, okay, now how do we really accelerate that
(21:47):
even beyond what I thought we could do?
And nothing happens overnight.
It's a lot of this is about, do you have the heart to stick with it?
It's really interesting the stick-to-itiveness is so important.
I mean, earlier in my career, I had heard a phrase and I don't know who said it, but
(22:08):
it's, it really is relevant.
It's like, get in line and stay in line.
So I feel like that is what it takes to be not only an entrepreneur, but a couple of
entrepreneurs to get over the daily humps of making it work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think so much about, you know, to at least this point where the business is today and
growing is because of what we learned and what we did wrong early on.
(22:30):
And you know, we over-adessed in some things.
We probably hired some people that we were ready to hire.
And you know, that was hard, that was tough.
But you know, we are so much more confident now, I think, in the decisions that we make.
And I think that just benefits the business and it gives us the tools to be able to say,
okay, here's what I think our next hire should be.
(22:53):
What have we done in the past?
You know, what type of person, what part of the team, how senior, how junior, where should
they be located?
You know, just gives us the information to be able to have that conversation in a really,
really different way than we were able to five or 10 years ago.
We all experience lots of things through the course of running businesses.
And maybe it's not the same exact thing, you know, today, what you're dealing with.
(23:16):
But it maybe seems somewhat similar to something that you experienced in the past and how did
you work through that?
Even if it's not the same exact scenario, I think we've found that to be really useful.
And it sounds like what you guys are doing is like you're learning, you're constantly
learning from what you do in the business and then trying to figure out how to apply
it or when to apply it, which is an awesome lesson, right, for other people with the business
(23:39):
is where they don't necessarily think that way.
It's like, you guys are not, well, maybe this didn't work out, but hey, I got this out of
it and I can use it this way or maybe it did work out and I can use it a different way.
The thing I think that that Josh was reminding me of is look at all of the things we've been
through and you, as human beings, we're more resilient than we think.
(24:02):
I have found as an entrepreneur, it's very comforting when I feel there's a familiarity
with something that I'm dealing with that is a hard problem.
Yeah, so this, this is great.
Like if you were to give some aspiring couples who are thinking about working together some
tips, what would be your three top tips?
Just be intentional about maintaining the different spheres of your life and don't just trust
(24:27):
that it's going to happen naturally because it's really hard.
And you know, the processes are especially at the beginning of a new company, especially
if you haven't done it before, especially if you're coming from a bigger company, just
know that it's going to be difficult.
So if you are not creating a space for your marriage, your family that is separate from
the business, I think you're really going to struggle.
(24:49):
I mean, I agree, I think the other thing I would say is don't be afraid to make a tough
decision that right now we need to like not work together.
And then, you know, for this, because you know, I think the other thing for Josh and
(25:10):
I is that we always knew that our marriage, you know, our family and our marriage was
the most important thing.
It was that first above everything else.
So we weren't willing to sacrifice that for the business as much as the business was like
was like another baby to me.
(25:32):
It was not a baby.
It was it's and that's I think it's really important to remember that we were willing
to walk away from what working together in order to prioritize the marriage and the family.
And then when we were able to, we came back together to work together and it's turned
(25:55):
out to be much better second go around.
This is great.
It's great.
I mean, a lot of great advice.
Are there any colorful or interesting stories that you guys want to share?
You know, it's been a lot of it's been a lot of really fun stuff.
You know, we've, you know, these is we were both on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange
(26:17):
and she rang the bell one day chasing down FedEx envelopes and had a check in it that
we really, really needed and trying to find it.
You know, I'd say the along the way, you know, the high points and some of the low points.
It's, you know, it's we joke about, you know, the low points today and say, oh my God, can
we believe that we went through that?
But you know, we did it and, you know, we have some, probably some, some light scars
(26:41):
with their fading and we learned a lot from them.
So I think probably more than anything is just enjoying the journey and, you know, looking
back and saying, okay, we did that together.
We got through this together.
And part of that, I think is to the resilience of our relationships that we're able to do
it.
And we're still doing this now many years later and the company is, you know, doing is,
you know, much better than it ever has.
(27:03):
So I think it's, you know, just enjoying the journey too and realizing, you know, marriage
is a journey and family is a journey and the business is a journey.
They all have different qualities and characteristics, but, you know, I think the joy of this is
that we get to do all those different things together and it really learned how to do it.
No, I mean, he said, he always says it so concisely.
It's one of the things like I tend to be like, you know, 12 words to say something that Josh
(27:24):
says to.
I would say anything.
I would say.
No, it's the opposite.
Oh, really?
It's just, see, that's funny.
That's why you kind of need, kind of need both perspectives.
I think that's the other thing is that you do realize things about yourselves that in
(27:48):
the business that actually can be really useful in the marriage.
It's not just, like, I encourage people to think of it not just, well, you know, what
does the marriage bring to the business, but it's what does the business bring to the marriage?
And I think there's, there's a lot of value there.
That's interesting.
(28:09):
That's great.
That's one thing, you know, we've talked to a lot of couples, but that we haven't heard
before.
I mean, you're both very to the point.
So even though you say Josh is more, but you guys are both really good at crystallizing
points that I think are relatable, the purpose of why we put this together is therapy for
us because we're a married couple.
It is therapy.
Yeah, listen, other married couples are what they go through, but it's the, well, what
(28:32):
are these cool nuggets that people can share?
Totally get that analogy to therapy because the podcast being an analogy because I say
that all the time from the podcast that I do because I'm talking to these women, we're
typically talking to women, I feel that way.
I feel like there is something that you get out of a conversation where you're there to
(28:55):
learn that you don't have that all the time in most parts of your life.
Right?
I mean, you're, you're genuinely coming to the table with curiosity.
You are trying to also serve like, okay, we're going to give this value to other people.
What we're learning in this, we're going to give that there's, there's something so
kind of, I mean, beautiful.
(29:16):
I don't know if that's the, like I sounds like a hokey word, but there is really something
beautiful about those two things kind of coming together, coming to something with like pure
curiosity and then also having this element of serving because you want to share that
with other people.
How long have you guys been married?
21 years.
21 years, 21 years.
Oh, same here.
(29:37):
All right.
Oh, well, 21 years.
There's a magic in hitting, in hitting those numbers.
That's another thing too, I think that you realize, and maybe this comes with age, I was
just thinking about this, like how much of this is like, could I have known this 15 years
ago and how much of it is just like with age, you kind of learn things.
(29:59):
That's why I always think to myself, okay, well, how would I talk to my teenager about
this?
Like how would I give this still some piece of advice based on knowing that in life,
and I think it's what Josh said before, it's the journey, like focus, don't focus so much
on the outcomes, focus on the journey because that's where the stuff happens.
(30:20):
That's where like the learning happens, like, you know, the joy comes in the moment.
Yeah, my mother used to say, live and learn.
Yes, well, there's a more concise way to say it.
You guys are awesome.
We will want to thank you guys.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
I really appreciate all your wisdom and insight and your experiences.
(30:44):
This is so amazing.
So thank you for having us.
For having us and for doing this.
I think it's wonderful that you, that this is something you guys have undertaken.
Thanks for listening.
For more info about our guests and their business, visit she speaks dot com.
(31:05):
For more episodes, visit branding shorts dot com forward slash podcast.
Thanks for listening.
The risk takers, innovators, business owners, and they're a couple.
(00:14):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs, a series about couples who start a business together
without ending their relationship.
Hear their unique stories, get tips, advice, and a secret to their success.
Would you work with your spouse?
Hosted by Mickey and Tony, a couple of entrepreneurs.
(00:35):
Co-founders of Brandy Shorts.
They left corporate to pursue an idea that gives women the power to influence business.
Meet Elisa Freud and Josh McKay of SheSpeaks.com.
Welcome to the show.
(00:57):
Welcome to a couple of entrepreneurs.
And by the way, I love the name of your podcast.
I have to say I saw the name and I thought that is so brilliant because you remember
it and it's totally exactly what the show is about.
So, so kudos to that.
Okay, so I'm Elisa Freud and Josh McKay.
(01:17):
And we together with a team run a company called SheSpeaks, which I launched back in
2008.
But in 2007, I launched as a beta.
The original idea for the business was that it would be a market research company focused
on women.
I came from a big brand as, you know, came from American Express, did a lot of market
(01:42):
research in my day.
I thought, oh gosh, this, there's got to be a better way to get really, really honest
and genuine authentic opinions from, from women.
The women's market was one that I was always very interested in.
And I understood the digital, which was just starting to grow again, back, this is back
(02:02):
in 2007.
I knew that it would help make research a lot easier.
So when SheSpeaks launched, it was really just a quantitative and qualitative market
research tool for companies that were interested in getting into a better understanding of the
hearts and minds of women.
So that's kind of where we started.
(02:23):
But what we figured out very quickly was that a lot of the women who were signing up to
be on our research panel were what you now call influencers.
But back then they were called, you know, socially, social media savvy or mom bloggers.
We had a lot of what you call mom bloggers now.
(02:43):
So we realized that there wasn't just an opportunity to get insights from this community, but also
maybe to also to do marketing.
So we evolved pretty quickly and what to what we are today, which is a company that is in
the influencer marketing space.
(03:04):
And we have a quarter of a million creators and influencers we get to work with, who are
part of SheSpeaks.
And our job is to find companies that are interested in partnering with these amazing
women to promote their products and services through the communities that these women have
built.
And we quarterback that process to ensure that we're getting great content.
(03:29):
And we then amplify and distribute that content.
That's great.
Awesome.
That's great.
I guess just to give you the back up a little bit too, it was great the way you overviewed
it.
Is like, did you start this right after you left the big company, American Express?
I was on a business trip.
My last role at AmEx was a global role and I was in Japan jet lagged, had a relatively
(03:52):
small newborn at home.
And I was thinking, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur with that idea.
And I was up in the middle of the night in Japan and came up with the idea.
And I have to say it was like a lot of years of thinking about it, but just couldn't figure
out what was the thing that I was going to be willing to leave.
(04:13):
I loved working there.
I was there for 10 years.
I had a great experience.
Josh and I met there.
So the company had been great to me.
It was just a matter of me kind of wanting to be an entrepreneur.
And as much as we like to say it, we said at American Express that it's great to have an
entrepreneurial spirit there.
You're not technically an entrepreneur.
You're working for a big company.
(04:34):
So if I wanted to get that experience, I kind of had to go off and do it.
So Josh, now how did you enter into the picture?
How did you guys work together on this business?
How did that work?
How did you guys team up?
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, this, our working together now is actually our second swing at this.
So initially, you know, Lisa founded the business as she said, it's really idea in 2007, got
(04:58):
it launched in 2008 into the market.
I joined the first time in 2009.
I was at Citibank.
And as the company started to, you know, get some progress and grow, we decided that it
needs somebody with my background, which is largely in finance and technology, which is
very complimentary to Alisa skills, which, you know, her background was most exclusively
(05:19):
in marketing in American Express.
So we worked together the first time for about three years.
And it didn't go that well.
You know, I think we at that point didn't really know how to work together.
We didn't know how to have a thing that was a business and a thing that was a family and
a thing that was a marriage and how to balance all of those.
(05:43):
You know, we were both very new entrepreneurs at that point.
You know, at least they had obviously been doing it for a year or so.
I came into it having only worked at the companies, not understanding what things like cashflow
are, you know, having to convince someone to join a three-person company and make that
leap rather than saying, hey, come work at American Express or Citibank.
(06:03):
And you know, our family was still relatively young.
You know, we had, you know, toddlers.
So I think, you know, the first time we just dove in really not thinking about it all that
much and what it would take.
We just sort of went, hey, we love each other.
It'll work.
It'll be great.
And it didn't.
And I ended up leaving, I think, what about 2011, 2012, went back and worked in some other
(06:27):
big companies for a while.
But then, you know, we decided to take another swing at it only about three years ago, a
little bit more.
And you know, I think we do a lot more about each other.
You know, our family was in a very different place.
Our children were older.
And you know, Lisa had a lot more experiences than an entrepreneur had been doing it for
over 10 years at that point.
So I think we had a much better foundation the second time and have a better foundation
(06:51):
now and are much, much better about understanding what it takes to keep all the various parts
of our lives successful.
I love this.
This is great as other people who are a couple think about starting a business.
You guys can talk about like what you did the first time versus what you changed the
second time.
So if you can maybe dive into it a little bit about like what you learned, right, the
(07:14):
first time and then when you guys teamed up the second time, like what did you keep
doing or what did you change, you know, that kind of thing.
It was harder for us doing it the first time and you know, we literally shared almost a
desk in an office and we're looking at each other, you know, from nine to five every day.
(07:34):
Because the company was smaller, there was I'd say more crossover in the roles is, you
know, we had to kind of work on everything.
So we weren't able to create a separation of sort of say, this is, you know, your universe,
this is your universe and there's obviously going to be crossover on things we work on
together.
But that was all just not very well defined.
So every issue became our issue.
I would say the issues, you know, there was really no delineation between our home and
(07:59):
marriage life and the business life because it was just everything was a big issue and
a, you know, a small company to solve all the time.
And we're now, I think we having worked through a lot of, you know, things that happen in
a company, we now have the confidence that we can do that.
We have the tools to talk about it, make decisions to understand what our priorities
are.
(08:20):
And I think some of it is frankly just experience.
But I think also, you know, we didn't really understand going in that, you know, even though
we married and we live with each other, we need to have separate jobs.
And the company really requires us to have separate jobs.
And we didn't know that we just kind of jumped into a person said, Hey, we'll figure this
out.
I mean, it was a lot harder than we thought it would be.
(08:40):
We're smiling and nodding here because we can totally identify.
We started in 2008 and we totally identify with this path.
Yes.
And I think another part and Josh, I think hit on all of the right points about what
was, you know, what was different the first go around versus the second.
(09:01):
I think the other thing was when you're running a business and it's an entrepreneurial venture,
you're all in.
And you need to be in a place to where you can be all in.
And as Josh was saying, like our kids were much younger, it's like it's about share of
mind, right?
(09:22):
Like you have a certain amount of space in your head for things that you have to think
about.
And you have to be in a place where you are willing and able to put the time in and the
energy into to this in the way that it needs to to really grow it.
(09:45):
When Josh left, it felt like I could actually breathe because it wasn't all in in a way that
felt precarious.
In the early days, we were not as thoughtful about, okay, what are we willing to go all
in on?
You can go all in in terms of your time.
(10:06):
You can go in and all in in terms of your energy, your money.
Like you have to decide.
You have to be thoughtful about what am I willing to go all in on?
For us, we felt like, okay, we are not ready to go all in on this financially.
And so Josh took a step away.
The business grew.
(10:26):
We have an amazing team that has been the group that gets it all done.
And you build that over time.
So I think when you're all in on too many fronts that are not sustainable, you really
need to kind of take a step back and decide, okay, what is going to make this work.
Right.
Because it could be paralyzing when there's too many things you get nothing done.
(10:50):
Yes, about prioritization, right?
It's like, what do you prioritize?
What do you prioritize?
No, it's so well said.
Both of you guys so well said and great advice for other people that are thinking, whether
it's a couple or not a couple, just partners trying to work together in a business.
So as a couple, it's hard sometimes to get a feedback, right?
Because you're also married or a couple when you want to see something happen that's not
(11:12):
happening, right?
And then on the other end of it, when you don't agree, for example, to make decisions.
And then on the other part of it, it's like, you guys feel because you are a couple, you
can push each other more.
Like you guys can grow more in the business because you know each other so well.
You know, I think something that's really helped us over time and, you know, the second
time around being better at this is kind of a new, more nuanced understanding what each
(11:35):
other's skills are and what each other is, you know, what gets them excited about their
job.
I think that really helps us, you know, to your question about decision making, you know,
we will go into something and really appreciate each other's perspective.
And you know, you can sometimes, you know, something will come up and say, oh, we should
do this, we should do that.
And, you know, you learn sort of not to, you know, let your first gut reactions sort of
(11:57):
be the thing that will the day, but say, hey, you know, this person is accomplished and
has accomplished a lot and has skills that I don't, so I should listen.
You know, a lot of the pressures that were on us early on, the first time we did it was
because we were new entrepreneurs and, you know, we did some dumb things that increased
sort of the pressure on us.
But we got through that and getting through it and, you know, knowing that this business
(12:20):
has been around for over a decade.
And you know, through that, there's been a lot of decisions that have been made, some
of them together, some of them independently.
You know, frankly, having made bad decisions in the work through them, I think more than
anything else probably gives us a good foundation for, you know, thinking through anything that
does come up now.
And it sounds like trust as well.
(12:41):
You guys know where you're, who's strong, stronger in what area, and you trust each other,
knowing that to make decisions and move forward.
Do you feel you grow more or you can push each other more?
Do you could a colleague in a corporation and grow more in business?
You know, obviously being married, you have a much better understanding of the other person
(13:02):
than you do with any of your colleagues at work.
You have the ability to take risks now.
And because I think you're right, trust is probably the most important factor in the
relationship.
Even if we, one of us makes a mistake now, we say, okay, you know, you went on that with
the right intentions and I understand why you made the decision made.
It didn't work out.
Not all of them do, right?
You know, even now, you know, someone gave me some great advice.
(13:24):
Whoever toward American Express you said, you should always be making decisions.
If you get most of them right, you're going to do just fine and land.
And I think that's really good advice.
And you know, I think we've learned now to, to make decisions together and then kind of
trust the outcomes.
And you know, sometimes we'll give them a lot of thought because they need it.
Sometimes it'll be, hey, we'll have a 30 second conversation about something.
(13:44):
But I think also we understand the right attention to give the issues now and really where we
need to focus our energies to help, you know, continue to grow it.
You know, trust is, is everything.
You know, learning about the right energy and investment to give to the issue of the
day also helps a lot.
So you're more comfortable getting out of your quote unquote comfort zone.
Yeah.
You might be in a corporate setting.
Yeah, I think that's her.
(14:05):
Yeah.
And I think the other thing that we think a lot about, and I certainly have talked a
lot with, with Josh about this, just my own perspective is that I've really shifted how
I think about failure.
I think if you're the kind of person who, you know, grew up wanting to be like a good
(14:26):
student, you know, we learn that don't fail.
Like it's, it's bad to fail.
But in reality, and quite frankly, you know, corporate America, I think has a lower tolerance
for failure, which is why I think you have a lot of people who spend a lot of time thinking
about how do I spin this?
So it's not a failure.
There was this great learning.
(14:47):
But I think when you're an entrepreneur running a business, that kind of stuff just falls
away.
The like sort of facade part of business, I think, like you really get very, very quickly
focused on what is really important to move things forward, not as much sort of the trappings
(15:09):
that I think sometimes can happen at big companies.
So because Josh and I came from big companies, I think in the beginning we got stuck in that
a little bit.
But then as like because, you know, I kind of continued on with it, learned really from
a lot of trial and error that failure is not fatal, that you, you just start to go, Oh,
(15:35):
these are the things that are really important.
This other stuff, not that important.
And I'm going to fail six times this week, but I'm going to succeed 10 times, right?
It's like, and as Josh said before, it's like, you know, as long as you're making on average
more, you know, good decisions than the ones that don't turn out to be the best decisions,
(15:55):
you're kind of moving ahead.
I just love that phrase failure is not fatal.
I mean, I love that.
I see that as a little line there.
Yeah, that's great.
So you guys have children.
So how do you separate your business life and your personal life when you're, you know,
in business together?
Yeah, I think it's, it's been a little bit probably organic.
(16:18):
I'd say it's not something we've done a lot of intentionality, but early on there was
really, there wasn't a lot of boundary between the work day and the family day.
And it was really hard.
And I think part of it, because it was new to each of us, you know, we hadn't done this
before.
Now, I feel like the two worlds don't very often, you know, leak together, you know,
(16:40):
when it gets to be towards dinner time, it's sort of, that's it.
And we becomes family time.
I'm not sure that's a conscious decision that we made, but I think that's the way that
it's worked out is, you know, we have the time during the day, we're working and we're,
you know, walking between each other's offices and sitting and talking, we're on meetings
together.
And then at the end of the day, pretty much stops, you know, obviously we occasionally
(17:02):
do some stuff at night or have a conversation because it comes up.
But I think part of the success of this time around has been having that delineation between
there's a thing that we do together that is called she speaks, but there's this other
thing called our family and our marriage that is more important.
And you know, you need to make sure we give each the attention that they need.
(17:24):
But the two of them don't necessarily overlap as much as these two.
Yeah, and that's, that's a credit more to Josh than me, quite frankly.
Josh is naturally or innately better at that than I am.
And I learned that's something I had to learn over time.
There's like a Yiddish word you can grisher, like, which is like spend a lot of time marinating
(17:47):
in, in like the concern and, and like worrying and all of that.
But I've learned that that doesn't necessarily make me more productive in resolving it.
And if anything, it's more the exact opposite that you need to get away from a something
like a problem that you're grappling with for a period of time sometimes to actually
(18:12):
come back and solve it better.
I think it took me time to figure that out.
I think I thought, well, if I keep focusing on it, I'll figure it out.
That was not the case for me.
But once you get that conceptually, you realize, oh, this relates to so many other things.
Like if at the end of the day, I'm going to be better off if I turn it off for a while,
(18:36):
because I'm going to, when I come back to it, I'm going to be more productive.
And I think because the company and she speaks as such a, it's like a baby to me.
It's like a very much a part of who I am.
I couldn't walk away from it thinking, I'm doing, this is for my own good.
I had to feel like, okay, I can really see how this is not just good for me, but ultimately
(19:00):
it's good for the company.
Talk to us a little bit about the business and how you grew the business and what you
guys are most proud of.
As people who came from corporate America, we thought, oh, you know, I ran a P&L for
the portfolios I ran.
I know how to make money.
If you are starting a new business, the important thing to think about is where's my path to
(19:24):
making money?
Because you have to have a viable business.
It can't just be, I have got this really cool, sexy idea and someone's going to put a ton
of VC into my company and I'm going to, you know, get a ton of venture capital and then
I'm going to sell this.
Like, the digital space could be like the space we were in, could be that space, considered
(19:46):
that space.
And I think it was really important to learn very quickly that we had to have a business
model that worked, that A, you know you can make money and B, that you can scale.
We have a good idea, but there are lots of good ideas.
So how do you put it, create a business around it that actually makes money and then, you
(20:10):
know, how do you grow that?
So I think to answer your question about the business, you know, it's evolved in terms
of exactly what we sell, but at the end of the day, it's still the same premise, which
is we're in the women's space.
Basically we are about helping companies really, you know, interact and win with women, but
(20:34):
doing that in a very authentic way.
So that was always the principle behind it.
That's why it was called She Speaks.
It's from the perspective of the woman who's, you know, done all the work to build this
audience and knows how to create great content, which are influencers and our creators.
So that's the heart of what we do.
And then I think it was a matter of figuring out, okay, how do we make that into a business
(20:59):
model that works and then how do we scale it?
And now we're at a point when Josh joined, just since he's joined the second go around,
we've really accelerated.
And I think it was good timing for us because I kind of got into the business to a certain
point and having his thinking and his strategic thinking and a fresh perspective.
(21:24):
The having that fresh perspective, I think was really useful.
We have been able to create together with our team, a business that is, has a good foundation.
It's accelerated a lot in the last few years.
And we're now at a point where we're thinking, okay, now how do we really accelerate that
(21:47):
even beyond what I thought we could do?
And nothing happens overnight.
It's a lot of this is about, do you have the heart to stick with it?
It's really interesting the stick-to-itiveness is so important.
I mean, earlier in my career, I had heard a phrase and I don't know who said it, but
(22:08):
it's, it really is relevant.
It's like, get in line and stay in line.
So I feel like that is what it takes to be not only an entrepreneur, but a couple of
entrepreneurs to get over the daily humps of making it work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think so much about, you know, to at least this point where the business is today and
growing is because of what we learned and what we did wrong early on.
(22:30):
And you know, we over-adessed in some things.
We probably hired some people that we were ready to hire.
And you know, that was hard, that was tough.
But you know, we are so much more confident now, I think, in the decisions that we make.
And I think that just benefits the business and it gives us the tools to be able to say,
okay, here's what I think our next hire should be.
(22:53):
What have we done in the past?
You know, what type of person, what part of the team, how senior, how junior, where should
they be located?
You know, just gives us the information to be able to have that conversation in a really,
really different way than we were able to five or 10 years ago.
We all experience lots of things through the course of running businesses.
And maybe it's not the same exact thing, you know, today, what you're dealing with.
(23:16):
But it maybe seems somewhat similar to something that you experienced in the past and how did
you work through that?
Even if it's not the same exact scenario, I think we've found that to be really useful.
And it sounds like what you guys are doing is like you're learning, you're constantly
learning from what you do in the business and then trying to figure out how to apply
it or when to apply it, which is an awesome lesson, right, for other people with the business
(23:39):
is where they don't necessarily think that way.
It's like, you guys are not, well, maybe this didn't work out, but hey, I got this out of
it and I can use it this way or maybe it did work out and I can use it a different way.
The thing I think that that Josh was reminding me of is look at all of the things we've been
through and you, as human beings, we're more resilient than we think.
(24:02):
I have found as an entrepreneur, it's very comforting when I feel there's a familiarity
with something that I'm dealing with that is a hard problem.
Yeah, so this, this is great.
Like if you were to give some aspiring couples who are thinking about working together some
tips, what would be your three top tips?
Just be intentional about maintaining the different spheres of your life and don't just trust
(24:27):
that it's going to happen naturally because it's really hard.
And you know, the processes are especially at the beginning of a new company, especially
if you haven't done it before, especially if you're coming from a bigger company, just
know that it's going to be difficult.
So if you are not creating a space for your marriage, your family that is separate from
the business, I think you're really going to struggle.
(24:49):
I mean, I agree, I think the other thing I would say is don't be afraid to make a tough
decision that right now we need to like not work together.
And then, you know, for this, because you know, I think the other thing for Josh and
(25:10):
I is that we always knew that our marriage, you know, our family and our marriage was
the most important thing.
It was that first above everything else.
So we weren't willing to sacrifice that for the business as much as the business was like
was like another baby to me.
(25:32):
It was not a baby.
It was it's and that's I think it's really important to remember that we were willing
to walk away from what working together in order to prioritize the marriage and the family.
And then when we were able to, we came back together to work together and it's turned
(25:55):
out to be much better second go around.
This is great.
It's great.
I mean, a lot of great advice.
Are there any colorful or interesting stories that you guys want to share?
You know, it's been a lot of it's been a lot of really fun stuff.
You know, we've, you know, these is we were both on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange
(26:17):
and she rang the bell one day chasing down FedEx envelopes and had a check in it that
we really, really needed and trying to find it.
You know, I'd say the along the way, you know, the high points and some of the low points.
It's, you know, it's we joke about, you know, the low points today and say, oh my God, can
we believe that we went through that?
But you know, we did it and, you know, we have some, probably some, some light scars
(26:41):
with their fading and we learned a lot from them.
So I think probably more than anything is just enjoying the journey and, you know, looking
back and saying, okay, we did that together.
We got through this together.
And part of that, I think is to the resilience of our relationships that we're able to do
it.
And we're still doing this now many years later and the company is, you know, doing is,
you know, much better than it ever has.
(27:03):
So I think it's, you know, just enjoying the journey too and realizing, you know, marriage
is a journey and family is a journey and the business is a journey.
They all have different qualities and characteristics, but, you know, I think the joy of this is
that we get to do all those different things together and it really learned how to do it.
No, I mean, he said, he always says it so concisely.
It's one of the things like I tend to be like, you know, 12 words to say something that Josh
(27:24):
says to.
I would say anything.
I would say.
No, it's the opposite.
Oh, really?
It's just, see, that's funny.
That's why you kind of need, kind of need both perspectives.
I think that's the other thing is that you do realize things about yourselves that in
(27:48):
the business that actually can be really useful in the marriage.
It's not just, like, I encourage people to think of it not just, well, you know, what
does the marriage bring to the business, but it's what does the business bring to the marriage?
And I think there's, there's a lot of value there.
That's interesting.
(28:09):
That's great.
That's one thing, you know, we've talked to a lot of couples, but that we haven't heard
before.
I mean, you're both very to the point.
So even though you say Josh is more, but you guys are both really good at crystallizing
points that I think are relatable, the purpose of why we put this together is therapy for
us because we're a married couple.
It is therapy.
Yeah, listen, other married couples are what they go through, but it's the, well, what
(28:32):
are these cool nuggets that people can share?
Totally get that analogy to therapy because the podcast being an analogy because I say
that all the time from the podcast that I do because I'm talking to these women, we're
typically talking to women, I feel that way.
I feel like there is something that you get out of a conversation where you're there to
(28:55):
learn that you don't have that all the time in most parts of your life.
Right?
I mean, you're, you're genuinely coming to the table with curiosity.
You are trying to also serve like, okay, we're going to give this value to other people.
What we're learning in this, we're going to give that there's, there's something so
kind of, I mean, beautiful.
(29:16):
I don't know if that's the, like I sounds like a hokey word, but there is really something
beautiful about those two things kind of coming together, coming to something with like pure
curiosity and then also having this element of serving because you want to share that
with other people.
How long have you guys been married?
21 years.
21 years, 21 years.
Oh, same here.
(29:37):
All right.
Oh, well, 21 years.
There's a magic in hitting, in hitting those numbers.
That's another thing too, I think that you realize, and maybe this comes with age, I was
just thinking about this, like how much of this is like, could I have known this 15 years
ago and how much of it is just like with age, you kind of learn things.
(29:59):
That's why I always think to myself, okay, well, how would I talk to my teenager about
this?
Like how would I give this still some piece of advice based on knowing that in life,
and I think it's what Josh said before, it's the journey, like focus, don't focus so much
on the outcomes, focus on the journey because that's where the stuff happens.
(30:20):
That's where like the learning happens, like, you know, the joy comes in the moment.
Yeah, my mother used to say, live and learn.
Yes, well, there's a more concise way to say it.
You guys are awesome.
We will want to thank you guys.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
I really appreciate all your wisdom and insight and your experiences.
(30:44):
This is so amazing.
So thank you for having us.
For having us and for doing this.
I think it's wonderful that you, that this is something you guys have undertaken.
Thanks for listening.
For more info about our guests and their business, visit she speaks dot com.
(31:05):
For more episodes, visit branding shorts dot com forward slash podcast.
Thanks for listening.
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