[244] - Dr Charlotte Gupta - Factors influencing the eating behaviour of shiftworkers - A Healthy Shift

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
coming home from their night shift and maybe
eating breakfast at anappropriate sort of breakfast
time.
If you're working a day shift,so maybe coming home with the
family and eating breakfast,you're challenging your glucose
metabolism so we're not able toprocess that food as well.
And even if we just do sort offour nights of doing that, we're
challenging our system to theextent that we're well on the

(00:23):
way to developing diabetes laterin life.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Shift work can be brutal, but it doesn't have to
be.
Welcome to a healthy shift.
My name is Roger Sutherland,certified Nutritionist, veteran
Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7shift worker for almost four
decades.
Through this podcast, I aim toeducate shift workers, using
evidence-based methods, to notonly survive the rigors of shift

(00:53):
work but thrive.
My goal is to empower shiftworkers to improve their health
and wellbeing so they have moreenergy to do the things they
love.
Enjoy today's show.
They have more energy to do thethings they love.
Enjoy today's show and welcometo another episode of a Healthy
Shift podcast.
I'm your host, roger Sutherland,and today, in another special

(01:21):
episode, interviewing DrCharlotte Gupta from the
University of Queensland, basedin South Australia.
Now, what I wanted to talk toCharlotte about today is a
really, really important topic,and that is the factors
influencing the eating behaviorof shift workers.
Now, what we wanted to diveinto with this one was the what,
when, where and why.
We wanted to understand whyshift workers eat certain things

(01:43):
at certain times.
Understand why shift workerseat certain things at certain
times.
What is it that impacts on that?
When should they eat how?
Why all of those sort of things?
This is a paper that wasauthored by Dr Charlotte Gupta
back in 2018.
I met Dr Charlotte Gupta fouryears ago at the Australasian

(02:03):
Chronobiology Conference.
After hearing her speak, Isidled up to her and I thought
she's someone who I need to bein touch with and learning from,
and she's someone that I'vebeen learning from ever since.
So today I get the opportunityto talk to her and you get to
listen in to our conversation.
So, without much further ado,let's introduce Dr Charlotte

(02:25):
Gupta.
How are you, charlotte?

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Hi, good thanks.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Oh no, thank you so much for coming on to the show,
such an important area ofresearch that you are actually
doing for our shift workingcommunity, and I've brought you
onto the show to talk about onepaper in particular, but also to
let us know exactly what it isthat your department are
actually doing around shift work.
So can you tell us a bit aboutyourself and your background,

(02:52):
and also what led you toresearching the eating
behaviours of shift workers?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, so I am a researcher at Central Queensland
University but work in Adelaideand Garnerland and focus on
optimising optimizing healthbehaviors for shift workers with
a real interest in nutrition.
So optimizing eating behaviorsbasically, how can shift workers
eat healthy, eat well, be safeand perform well on shifts?

(03:17):
Finished my PhD in 2020, thebeginning of that year Got into
it sort of accidentally, like alot of researchers do, where I
was working on a study in myhonours year looking at the
glucose metabolic response toeating at night for shift
workers, and I came on and washelping to run the study by

(03:38):
looking at the performanceoutcomes and didn't originally
come in aiming to look at theeating impacts on performance at
night because we didn't thinkthere would be any.
So we were collecting the data,but I was going to look at
performance at night without theimpact of eating and when it
came to do the stats we thought,all right, well, we'll see if
there's something here.

(03:59):
And there was.
So there was the impact ofeating a big meal versus not
eating at night changed howdisciplines performed Sleep labs
.
So food at night impairedperformance compared to not
eating.
From there we got a grant to dothe bigger version of that
study with eating a big meal,eating a snack or not eating,

(04:20):
and I was able to continue on myresearch and really build this
research area of performance atnight and eating and it really
sparked my interest into, okay,how is what we eat at night
impacting how well we can workand how safe we can work, but
also how does it impact how wefeel and if I'm looking at, okay
, maybe reducing meal size atnight is safer for performance,

(04:44):
how feasible is that?
What are the reasons people eatat night?
And that led into this paper onthe motivations and, yeah,
really sparked my interest inthe area.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Love this Now.
Charlotte, I met you at theChronobiology Conference in
Brisbane in was that 2021 or 22?
You're going to tell me 23 orsomething but we met and I must
admit, when you spoke I knowyou're given a very short period
of time to speak on aparticular topic and as soon as
you finished talking, in typicalRoger fashion, I sidled

(05:16):
straight up to you and wentright, we need to talk.
I need to know more about thisbecause if there's one thing
that I've done is I've done the40 years of shift work.
But I love reading the researcharound shift work to understand
, because one of the mainreasons why I do what I do today
is because I watched all of mycolleagues really struggling.

(05:38):
I saw the weight gain, I saw thehealth impacts and I personally
thought oh, it's nutrition.
All you got to do is find acalorie deficit and away you go.
It's a lot more impactful thanthat and there's a lot more to
it, as you have learned as ashift worker.
So I went off as a researcher.
Now I went off and studiednutrition, thinking that this

(06:00):
was going to be the solution andin my experience of coaching
shift workers, I've learnedbecause of what the work that
people like yourself and yourdepartment are actually doing.
I learn more and more and morearound the impacts of it.
Eating and nutrition is verydifferent for shift workers than
it is for our nine to five genpopulation.

(06:23):
Is that a fair comment?

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, definitely it's .
The timing of eating is soimportant.
Lots of presentations I give toindustry, to employers and even
at conferences like to startwith it's not just what we eat,
but when, and for shift workers,the when is so important
because it's night shifts,eating at night, but even any

(06:45):
sort of rotating shift work.
It's changing our eatingroutines and our eating patterns
.
Some researchers looked at theamount people are eating and
what people are eating over 24hours with different shifts, and
it's not so much a change inthe amount of food necessarily
for 24 hours, but it's thattiming, that shifting time,
eating at night that we know iswhat leads to a lot of the

(07:07):
challenges.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Absolutely fantastic it does.
It leads to huge challenges,because I know myself that in my
time in shift working it wouldbe nothing for me to cook up a
spaghetti bolognese and chowdown on that at three o'clock in
the morning.
And when I think back to that,I just think to myself oh my God
, rog, no wonder you were havingissues with weight gain and

(07:29):
health and things like that,because the more you understand,
the worse it actually is andthe impacts are.
What I've done now is encouragethe fasting overnight,
particularly while melatonin iselevated in the body, because I
think we learn more now, don'twe, that we metabolize and store
nutrients very differently whenmelatonin is elevated in the

(07:51):
system.
Is that a fair comment?

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, I think so.
It's definitely eating at night, when melatonin is elevated,
and when our melatonin isincreased, our body is preparing
for sleep, and so at night, allof our physiological rhythms
are promoting sleep and notdigestion and active
metabolizing of food.
We're challenging the system alot more at night with food than

(08:15):
we would be during the day,when our body is primed to be
digesting.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Can you just tell me what are the biggest
misconceptions about how shiftworkers eat?
I know myself I used to justcompletely flip my meals right,
so I'd be having my main meal atthree o'clock in the morning,
and it wasn't until I learnedmore that I realized how bad
that was.
So what are the biggestmisconceptions about how shift
workers eat today?

Speaker 1 (08:39):
I think the biggest challenge I've come across when
I'm talking to employers ortalking to management and the
sort of higher ups, is this ideathat shift workers almost want
to be unhealthy or pickunhealthy foods and nothing can
change and that's just.

(09:01):
You know, you're on the nightshift, you're unhealthy.
I remember reading someFacebook comments because I was
doing an analysis of commentsfrom shift workers on nutrition
and one of them was from a chefat a mining site and they said
you know, no matter what I cook,people are always going to
choose the unhealthy things.
And it was sad to read really,because that's sort of
discrediting all of thedisruptions to our cravings,

(09:24):
disruptions to our hunger, foodavailability at night, all of
these reasons that foods arepicked to eat or forced sort of
is the only option, and justsort of taking responsibility
away from what employers can bedoing to promote healthy eating
and that shift workers.
You know, no one wants to bedoing something unhealthy but

(09:45):
there's reasons behindeverything that means that maybe
that's the best option thatnight.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
This is what I've learned myself.
While we think it's nutritionand people don't know how to go
about eating and what they do,there's a whole umbrella of
issues sitting over the top ofthe nutrition, isn't there?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, definitely.
It's not as simple as I'mchoosing between a salad or hot
chips at night.
It's never going to be thatsimple, but I think people like
to think it is and that peopleare choosing the hot chips.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yep, they are, and I'm convinced from a position.
This is an experienced shiftworker talking to an experienced
researcher.
I think we resign ourselves tothe fact that we're unhealthy
because we're a shift worker andthere's nothing that you can do
about it, without any doubt,and that's the point that you've
made and made well, I thinkthis is where it's wrong and
that is a very, very bigmisconception.

(10:37):
I've interviewed Dr Jill Joycefrom Oklahoma State University,
and I did that back in episode64, where we talked about the
influence of food accessibilityand what that plays in our shift
working environment, as in,what we see is what we want to
eat.
But I really want to discussyour paper, because you were the
lead researcher in a paper thatwas published in 2018.

(11:01):
And that is titled the FactorsInfluencing the Eating Behaviour
of Shift Workers.
As in what, when, where and why.
This fascinated me, this paper.
I love this because thisencompasses absolutely
everything I think around eatingfor a shift worker.
So your research in this paperhighlights that night shift
workers often eat breakfast atan inappropriate time.

(11:23):
Why is this an issue and whatare the potential health
consequences of that?
What are we calling breakfast?

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah.
So when I say inappropriate it'smeaning sort of from
traditional timing, traditionalsort of nine to five day work,
and that is a product of theschedule.
So a lot of workers are cominghome from their night shift and
maybe eating breakfast at anappropriate sort of breakfast
time if you're working a dayshift so maybe coming home with

(11:50):
the family and eating breakfast,but then they're eating that
right at the end of their shiftand then trying to go to sleep
and so that food is challengingtheir sleep.
We also find people, you know,maybe having a big meal during
the night as maybe their dinnermeal or their lunch meal,
whatever meal you want to callit, which is also challenging
the system, like I said before,when, at the time when we're not

(12:12):
primed to be eating, and whatwe know from some other research
that I've been involved in isthat you're challenging your
glucose metabolism so we're notable to process that food as
well, and even if we just dosort of four nights of doing
that, we're challenging oursystem to the extent that we're
well on the way to developingdiabetes later in life.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
This is a key point and this is what I absolutely
wanted to speak to you about aswell.
We talk about glucosemetabolism.
Can you just explain to ourlisteners in simple terms what
you mean by glucose metabolism?
I understand it, but I'd loveyou to just explain a
nine-to-fiver and how glucose ismetabolized and why this is so

(12:55):
compromised for a shift workerat night.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, so in I guess really basic terms it's how our
body processes the energy we getfrom food, and so energy and
the energy we get from food, andso energy and the glucose we
get from food.
And during the day our body isprimed to be doing that.
So we have periods of increasedmetabolism during the day,
coinciding with our typicalbreakfast, lunch, dinner meals.

(13:19):
Then our breakfast meal sort ofkicks that off for the day,
which sort of part of the reasonbreakfast is so important.
At night our body is not primedto be digesting, it's not
primed to be metabolizing energy, and so resources that we need
to be sleeping have to be almostdiverted.
So neuronal resources,physiological resources to

(13:42):
metabolizing and dealing withthat challenge of the food at
night, and so the sort of morewe pressure that system and the
longer we're doing that, themore our rhythms are out of sync
and the more that's leading torisks of chronic health disease
later in life.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
And we do tend to see this because the longer a
person's actually done shiftwork, they do tend to gain more
weight, and there is acorrelation with this as well,
because of that poor glucosemetabolism.
To explain to a person insimple terms, I think what that
means is that when you'reconsuming and, let's face it, we
don't crave an apple overnight,do we?

(14:21):
We're wanting highly palatablecarbohydrates and fats, which is
our biscuits, our chips, ourchocolates, our lollies?
Anything that's in a vendingmachine we'll go for, because
it's our body searching for thatenergy which comes from glucose
.
Now, when we eat it, it goesinto our body, but there's
nowhere for it to go, as in atnight, because our insulin

(14:41):
resistance is high Insulin, thepancreas doesn't release as much
insulin.
So we end up with all sorts ofproblems and over time, this
glucose continually gets parkedas stored energy.
We gain weight.
It gets to the stage where webecome diabetic or we become a
type 2 diabetic over time,because the body has nowhere to
put it, and this is why it'suncool for people to just go oh,

(15:05):
I'm a shift worker, sotherefore I'm just going to be
unhealthy, because you areliterally, once you cross the
Jordan, and become a type 2diabetic.
That's it.
That's your sentence forever,and you need to be very, very
aware of that.
So how do we break theavailability influence on shift
workers' meal choices?
Have you come across industriesand workplaces that handle this

(15:26):
particularly well?
Obviously, you're looking atplaces.
People are reaching out to you.
How do we go about doing this?
And you've spoken about thechef that says you know what?
It doesn't matter what I cook.
It can be healthy, it can behigh protein, it can be anything
.
They still go for the burgerand chips all the time.
Have you come across anorganization that's doing it
really well and what are theydoing?

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, I've come across shift workers that are
doing it really well.
I'm yet to find an organizationa lot that listen and that want
to know.
But putting that into practiceand often funding the funds to
do that sort of doesn't quitematch what I would like them to
be doing.
Which might be other options invending machines, things like
storage in ambulances or intrucks, storage for fresher

(16:10):
foods on shift truck stops orservos that people are stopping
at cafeterias, in hospitals openat night or, if they are open,
they're not providing manyoptions.
So increasing that and a lot ofthat does come with a cost.
But I have spoken to so manyshift workers that one tell me
yeah, I know what you're talkingabout, I've been doing that for
years anyway.

(16:30):
Why are you even saying this,which I love because it really
shows that we need research tobe catching up to what people
are doing and what problemspeople are facing, and so
hopefully I'm lessening mad gapis my aim.
But yeah, a lot of shiftworkers who meal prep and so are
packing really healthy thingsto eat on shift A lot that fast,
like you said earlier, you knowmaybe a team leader that

(16:54):
manages that with colleagues andso you know nurses that band
together and say we're gettingchocolates from patients but
we're not going to eat them atthis time of night, that sort of
thing.
So I hear from a lot of shiftworkers who get it right and do
a lot of great things, but youhave to find that organization
that is really nailing it forthe shift workers.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
I've got an organization that I really want
you to get into, because theycould really use the education
for some of the behaviors that Isaw while I was working that
are just compromising theirstaff's health, which is the
bottom line.
They're compromising it,they're not supporting it.
Handing out lollies during peakperiods is not the way to go.

(17:35):
You just gave me an idea whileyou were talking then as well,
actually around talking aboutteam leaders in hospitals or
hospital managers or people likethat that when these chocolates
come in, when they come onshift, they should just clear
them out, shouldn't they, andput them away in a storeroom so
that they're not actually therein sight, and I thought that

(17:55):
sort of supports what Dr JillJoyce said as well about putting
it out of the way, which Ithink is really, really good.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, it is hard, I guess, because I don't ever want
to take away something that'scomforting on a really stressful
shift and I am not a nurse andI can't imagine the stress of a
lot of those nights and I wouldnever want to come in and say,
well, don't eat chocolate.
If that's the thing that'sgetting you through that shift
and that's what's giving youcomfort in a very stressful

(18:23):
environment, or also somethingthat you you know as a team, you
can sit and have some cake andthat really bonds you, and so
it's really working out theoptimal way to balance health
and long-term health with the onshift well-being.
And so you know, if we takeaway the chocolates, is there
another way we can havesomething that's more of a treat

(18:44):
or something that's comfortingfor people as well.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
And this is where we look at these things.
So, as you've said, we don'twant to take the chocolate off
them because it might be acomfort food, but what we want
to do is just find analternative, and this is where
research evolves, that we justgot to find people that go, oh
no, I would love this.
Or a handful of blueberries andsome Greek yogurt or some
protein or something like that.
That gives you the sweet hit,which is the same, but it's just

(19:10):
much more efficient in oursystem.
The paper mentions limitedaccess to healthy food options.
So how does this impact shiftworkers' overall health, and
what is there that workplacescan actually do to improve this?

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah.
So what we looked at in thisreview was okay.
If shift workers are eating,let's say, more sort of
ultra-processed foods thingslike chips, chocolates, lollies,
sandwiches, those sorts ofthings why?
Why is that?
Where is that food coming from?
And you know, some of it isbrought on shift, sure, by the

(19:46):
shift workers themselves, but alot of it is that's what's
available, so that's all you canget from the vending machines.
You know the canteen isn'tavailable at the hospital, so
you go to vending machines.
There's nowhere to store freshfood.
You don't know when you'regoing to eat, so you can't bring
fresh food with you in thepolice car, for example.
So you're picking up, you know,maybe protein bars or something
that's easy to carry.
A lot of factors like that thatare due to workplace environment

(20:10):
, shift type, irregular breaksall of that is contributing to
what shift workers are eating.
And so if we're wanting tooptimize what people are eating
and when, workplaces will have aresponsibility to one provide
those foods.
If they are providing any foods, they want it to be more of
those sort of less processed,healthy, high protein, high

(20:33):
fiber snacks fruit, potentiallylike nuts, muesli bars that
aren't very super sugary, thosesorts of things Providing places
to store snacks, which we'vetalked about, and that's at work
, but also in cars, in truckcabs, wherever that can be Set
break times.

(20:53):
Obviously that's hard in somejobs, but the break times do
dictate what people are eatingand when at a lot of times, and
so if we know that, we tellpeople not to have food, say in
the one to three zone where it'sa circadian low, so our body is
naturally sleepiest, but that'sthe only time people have a
break, that's the only timepeople can eat, and so it's

(21:14):
making workplaces aware of thosesorts of factors that influence
eating.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
I totally agree with this.
I think one of the biggestproblems that we have today is,
as society has broadened into a24-7 environment, all they're
doing is packing humans intothese 24-7 working environments.
There's actually noconsideration given to what the
research is telling us around,what needs to happen with how we

(21:41):
should be rostering people, howwe should be structuring breaks
, and things like that.
See, if I had my way, I'd stripevery 24-7 workplace down and
rebuild them as a shift workingenvironment with what the
researchers actually told us.
Imagine how much better we'd be.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, we're sort of, like you're saying, kind of
retrofitting now what we know tothese existing structures and
the existing way that the worldworks.
And often, you know, maybe wehave servos open 24 7 and that's
typically to serve.
You know, maybe you're out latedrinking, and they are mainly
open to cater to that community,whereas probably the people

(22:19):
that are using the most arepeople, workers.
So it's maybe not targeting theservices we have to the people
that are actually using them.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
So, charlotte, on that, do you think that you and
I could start a company, maybethat we could then actually have
shift worker specific vendingmachines, that we could actually
start putting food in and livehappily ever after as
multi-millionaires?

Speaker 1 (22:44):
I mean that would be great.
I've tried HelloFresh andsimilar kind of meal packs and
also sort of pre-packs food thatyou have in your freezer, and
thinking of having a shift workspecific version of that where
you give people the food butalso tell them when to eat it.
So no one's still this idea, or, if you do, please include me
because I think that would bereally cool.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, I know.
Could you imagine if, forargument's sake, I'll give them
a plug?
But if you had a company likemy Muscle Chef that were
producing meals and then theyhad a timeframe of when you
should eat it on the meal, hey,this would be just gold.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
That is my dream, I think.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, so that someone could go to the
vending machine that's got themy Muscle Chef meals in it my
Muscle Chef, my Muscle Chef, ifyou're listening.
And what they could do is theycould have a window like oh,
here I am.
Now it's 8 o'clock to 10 pm,what do I need to eat?
And you could pick from the 8pm to Charlotte.

(23:48):
We're onto something.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Exactly, and we shouldn't expect shift workers
to have to have a sort of higherunderstanding of nutrition or
anything than everyday person.
I mean, I don't have anutrition background.
I'm coming to this frompsychology and from optimizing
behaviors and that's what wewant to do.
We don't want people to have tokind of do a full research

(24:10):
degree just to understand whenthey could eat on their shifts
when they're doing suchimportant work.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
I totally agree.
And the other thing toemphasize that, from a shift
work perspective, from someonewho's done it, not only that,
but someone who's coached a lotof people decision fatigue,
decision fatigue is enormous.
But if you could walk over to avending machine saying I'm
hungry and it's got a columnthere eat this between 6 pm and

(24:37):
midnight, eat this betweenmidnight and 6 am, eat this
during the day, and you couldjust pick from those slots,
imagine the difference that itwould make.
The brain goes a million milesan hour.
Now that's a great idea andthis is what we need, because
shift workers don't want to haveto think any more than what
they do, because they see it asanother chore.

(24:58):
It's another thing they've gotto do.
They're already chronicallyfatigued and tired and on this
too and you've said you've comefrom a psychological background
as well around the shift work.
So social and psychologicalinfluences play a really big
role in eating behavior.
And this is one thing that I inparticular, have learned in
coaching people.

(25:19):
Can you expand on how stress,fatigue and also the social
dynamics shape what shiftworkers are actually eating?

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, I mean on a stress level.
We know, no matter what sort ofwork we're doing, when we're
tired, when we're stressed,we've got a deadline coming up.
You know, for non-shipworkers,we're wanting those comfort
foods.
Body is craving the sugars andthe chocolate and things that we
know are comforting, and thesame goes for shipworkers.

(25:47):
So even at night our body, inthat stress state, can still
want and crave those things.
We know that sleep restrictionimpacts our leptin and ghrelin,
so our hunger and satietyhormones, and the more we sort
of restrict sleep, the more wedisrupt them and we can overcome

(26:09):
our leptin rhythms.
So even with higher rhythms, soleptin is the satiety hormone,
even if we've got higher levelsof that, if we're sleep
restricted, we can resist it andstill crave food.
So leptin resistance is quitecommon in shift workers.
And so you know it's notnecessarily a weakness or giving

(26:30):
into these foods, it's thisbiological craving that we have
and it's quite common inoverweight and obesity as well.
And then this sort of socialaspect of food, you know, eating
together on shift.
I talk to a lot of shift workersin different industries and
nursing firefighters, police,where someone says, yeah, I eat
with someone else on shift or ifI have this partner with me on,

(26:52):
then we always go to this placeand with someone else on shift.
Or if I have this partner withme on, then we always go to this
place and get these donuts onshift, or something like that
and there's a real socialbonding, team cohesion aspect to
it.
It's not because they're hungry, necessarily, or they're
craving that food, but it's anactivity and it's a bond.
Food has this real power tobring people together and bond

(27:13):
over it and comforting, and sothe last thing that I want to do
as a researcher is come in andtake that away or change it
without any experience of whatit does for these people.
Yeah, disrupt patterns on shift, disrupt that social fabric,
and so I think if we're thinkingof how to optimize food timing,
we need to also be mindful ofnot disrupting social health.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, I hope you're enjoying the show.
If you are, please don't forgetto rate and review once you've
finished.
This helps the show's reachenormously.
And have you got my free ebook,the Best Way to Eat on Night
Shift?
Well, this is a comprehensiveguide to the overnight fast, why
we should fast and how to bestgo about it.

(27:57):
I've even included a fewrecipes to help you.
I've put a link to the ebook inthe show notes.
And are you really strugglingwith shift work and feel like
you're just crawling from oneshift to the next?
Well, I've got you.
If you would like to work withme, I can coach you to thrive,
not just survive, whileundertaking the rigours of 24-7

(28:19):
shift work.
I also conduct in-house livehealth and wellbeing seminars
where I will come to yourworkplace and deliver
evidence-based information tohelp your wellbeing team to
reduce unplanned leave andincrease productivity in your
workplace.
I've put the links in the shownotes to everything mentioned.

(28:39):
You can find me atahealthyshiftcom or on Instagram
at a underscore healthy,underscore shift.
Now let's get back to the show.
We've got to make sure thatwe're encompassing the social
health, but people are aware Iknow from my own experience that
we used to many years ago,before everything went 24-7 as

(29:03):
well, someone off crew orsomeone on crew would be cooking
on each individual night.
So it'd be my turn Tuesdaynight, another person's turn
Wednesday night, and then youwould all sit around and eat a
meal at three o'clock in themorning and this is standard as
to what we used to do andeveryone used to come in.
There'd be a barbecue onThursday morning and you'd be
barbecuing and everyone would behaving when I think about it,

(29:26):
sausages and steaks and hot dogsand sausage in bread and all of
that sort of stuff, and I think, oh, my goodness me, but that's
what we did.
But it was a bonding exercise,which you've quite rightly
pointed out, and you know what,charlotte?
That's really important tothose people that are on that
shift.
Otherwise, everyone becomes soalienated in that environment as

(29:47):
well, and I think it's just achance, as you said, for
everyone to come together.
It's really interesting thatthat's what we do and no one
goes and has a picnic at threeo'clock in the morning with cut
up apples and cut up fruit orthings that we should be eating
at that time of the night.
It's always at Pancake Parlourthat's running 24-7, or it's at
McDonald's, or meet up in thecar park at McDonald's and do

(30:09):
that.
It's what happens.
The idea, I think, is to tryand eat before that so that
we're not hungry over that time,but your research suggests that
shift workers tend to snackmore and consume fewer
nutritious foods.
Do you know why this ishappening and what is it that we
can actually do to counteractthis?

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, so it's typically more what we would
consider a snack, so maybesomething like the kind of 200
to 400 calorie kind of portionof food.
So a snack versus a bigger meal, and that's for a whole number
of reasons.
I mean largely a lot of shifts.
You can't stop and have a bigmeal, or it might be we found

(30:49):
that a lot of shift workersmight have, you know, something
like, again, plugging my musclechef, but then eat that in
separate portions when you'reable to sit down, and so you end
up eating it more as a snack.
So snacks more common, and thatis also a product of what's
available.
How long you have to eat, youmight just be, you know,
shoveling down a muesli barbefore you're running off to

(31:10):
take a cold.
And less, less nutritious foods, we mean more of those ultra
processed foods.
So muesli bars, sandwiches,chips, cookies, those sorts of
things which, again, delicious,making me hungry talking about
them.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Oh, that's right.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, and people eat them during the day as well.
The difference is eating themat night, when our body isn't
primed to be digesting anything,and those less nutritious foods
.
We don't actually know thisfrom research, but we would
hypothesize going to challengethe body more.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I know that the bottom line technically in the
nutritional field is calories in, calories out.
Calorie deficit is the only waythat you achieve.
But I also challenge is theonly way that you achieve.
But I also challenge and, likeyou've said, as a hypothesis, I

(32:02):
also challenge that you could bea nine to fiver and consume
1800 calories a day and maintainyour weight, but the same
person and this would be greatwith a washout period and going
off into a night shift andrunning that same person on
1800,800 calories a day forseven nights of night shift or
even whatever, to see what thedifference in weight would be.
Because I'm convinced that the1,800 calories in the 24-hour

(32:23):
cycle of a night shift worker iscompletely different to the
1,800 calories of the 24-hourperson.
Do you agree with that?

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, and it's sort of back to the time-restricted
eating principles.
So Sachin Panda's work, thesort of original in rats where a
group of rats were given areally high-fat diet, sounds
like a great life at that pointfor the rats, yeah, or mice, and
some of them had a longereating window, so all during the
day, but had a longer timebetween their first lot of food

(32:53):
and last lot of food, and someof them had a shorter time.
So I can't remember the exactwindows, it might've been 10 and
six hours.
And so the same food, the same,you know, typically bad food,
and those that had it in theshorter eating window had much
better health outcomes and thosethat had the longer eating
window put on weight.
And so it's this idea that evenif we're having food that isn't

(33:15):
typically nutritious, typicallyhealthy, if we're having it at
the wrong time, then that'smaking the difference over what
the food itself is like.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
We could hypothesize that eating overnight
contributes to the weight gain,even if it's a calorically equal
I can't remember the word gain,even if it's a calorically
equal I can't remember the wordnow but if everything's
calorically on par, that'sreally interesting, I think,
because I've talked to Dr OliviaWalsh about this as well, who
talks a lot about that.
We know that our body isactually metabolizing and

(33:48):
storing nutrients verydifferently when melatonin is
elevated, because it has animpact on the system.
With the system being asleep,we've got lower insulin levels.
I think there's also a theoryas well that our BMR reduces by
around about 200 caloriesovernight as well, and I think
this is something that well,there's got to be more to it, a
lot more to it, and that's awhole podcast in itself, I think

(34:10):
, because it's a massiveargument, isn't it?
As to people go nope, it's justcalories in, calories out.
I would argue that I think intime, we will learn that shift
workers gain weight because it'snot as simple as calories in,
calories out.
It's the way they'remetabolized overnight.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, definitely the timing of calories.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Definitely makes a big difference and in fact even
it makes a difference.
I always find it funny and Ican talk to you about that with
the timing as well.
I also find it very interestingthat people, when they do their
so-called intermittent fasting,which is time-restricted eating
, that they fast from 8 pm atnight to midday the next day.
They'd actually be better offfasting from 3 pm in the

(34:49):
afternoon until 6 am in themorning, wouldn't they Turning
that around, eating more oftheir calories in the morning?
I'm talking about for healthbenefit, because we know
biologically that by eatingearlier and then cutting the
foods out as melatonin starts torise or as we get later in the
day, our body functions so muchbetter and so much more

(35:10):
efficiently when we do it thatway.
And yet everyone fasts in themorning.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, typically morning fasting is skipping.
Breakfast is quite popular andpeople find that easier.
I think because, as a society,for those of us who are shift
workers, dinner is always seenas this big meal, whereas
breakfast, if we think ofbiologically, should be our
biggest, heaviest meal, becausethen we have the whole day and
our daytime activities toprocess it.

(35:35):
And so I think if we as asociety switch to breakfast
being more of our biggest meal,it would be easier then to, like
you said, follow that rhythmand fast from earlier in the day
.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, I love this and I think, to highlight this for
people as well, if you thinkabout it, when you catch up with
friends or you go out with yourpartner and you go out for
brunch and you have yourselfyour eggs and your avocado and
your multigrain bread, you don'teat for the rest of the day
because you are really satiatedand you're full.

(36:08):
So you tend to eat less becauseyou've had a really good
breakfast as well.
I know there's argumentsbreakfast no, full so you tend
to eat less because you've had areally good breakfast as well.
I know there's argumentsbreakfast no breakfast.
Whatever you do, you boo and Iget that.
But I personally agree and Ithink that it kicks the
metabolism off, puts the bestpart of calories into our system
earlier on in the day, givesour body a chance to process
that.
We eat less as the day goes on.

(36:30):
In your research, there weresex differences that were noted
in our eating patterns, and howdo men and women experience the
impact of shift work on theirdiet differently?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah, so it was a little while ago now and I think
if I was to update this we'dsee more papers looking into
this and it's something I wantto keep doing some more work on.
But differences in thereporting of eating behaviors by
men and women and there wasn'ta clear sort of this is the
reason why, but it could also bethe industries that men and

(37:02):
women might gravitate towardsdifferently.
So nursing is far more womendominated, and so there
typically was a lot more socialeating you know, chocolates and
things like that in nursingstudies that were mainly women
versus a lot of the truckindustries.
Transport industries were maledominated samples, and so we saw

(37:22):
a lot more snacking on shiftthat was sourced from like truck
stops and things like that.
And so you know the differencesaren't necessarily biological
differences in leptin andghrelin, so our hunger and
satiety hormones it's likelyenvironmental.
I'd really like to look atfamily setups and eating and you

(37:46):
know if a female partner, forexample, is preparing food for
the kids and also their husbandwho's going off to shift.
I've heard many stories fromshift workers telling me that
that they eat whatever theirwife packs them to have on shift
, and so we could target all wewant resources at that shift
worker, but really it's home.

(38:07):
We need to be chatting to wivesabout what they're packing or
challenging that and to say thehusband should maybe have their
own lunch.
But that's hard around shiftwork and a lot of wives you know
saying that they come home andthey prepare breakfast for the
kids and so then they'll havebreakfast when they have prepare
things for the kids after anight shift.
So I think a lot of thedifferences we see in between

(38:29):
male and female shift workersare there's more environmental,
social differences, but I thinka lot more to unpack there.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
I reckon I could hypothesize that women tend to
graze more than men.
I think men sit down to theirthree regular meals and I think
in life life sort of shows usthat women are grazing in
between running around doing themum, family, wife duties all
the time.
That's just my hypothesis on it.
I can understand too, that itwould be very, very

(38:59):
environmental, as in when wetalk about that we'll be talking
about because of the particulartypes of jobs that people do.
But I think women are grazersmore and men are more sit down
to have the three regular meals.
That's what I would guess.
I'd love to see the proof inthat, particularly in shift
workers, and I loved that.
You said also that we need tolook at what the wives are

(39:19):
packing for the husbands andaddress that.
If they're doing that and Ithink this is a really important
point as well, because mendon't think to cook A lot, don't
?
I'd love to, but a lot of mendon't think to cook and they
just grab the leftovers withwhatever the wife's doing.
So if we were to educate thewives as to what to feed their
husbands, that could make amassive impact on the shift
working world as well, couldn'tit?

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, and I definitely don't want that
message to be that shift workingmales are unhealthy because of
what their wives are packingthem.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
No, no, no, I'm fat because it's your fault, yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
But packing them, no, no, no, I'm fat because it's
your fault.
Yeah, but potentially that'swhere you know some change and
some optimizing could be is, youknow, here's what you could
pack for your significant othergoing off to shift, keeping in
mind that they're probably alsodoing a lot of other domestic
load as well.
But yeah, it's sort of thewhole way through.
You know, wherever I've done astudy to say, eat a, a snack at
night, I think there's no pointtelling people that without

(40:16):
understanding why people aresnacking where that food's
coming from the source of it andreally being able to target
that.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, I agree, the message is clear too.
I've got a lot of women thatfollow my Instagram account.
They just want to learn fortheir husbands to support their
husbands, and I think this is away that maybe I need to address
this as well, to say, hey, thisis what we need to be doing and
we're not putting theresponsibility on the mums at
home or the wives at home, andthat you've made that very, very

(40:42):
clear, and I think that'simportant.
But with a bit of education, asI said, a lot of women follow
me because of their partners andthey've told me this that
they're not sure what to do withtheir husband for this.
But if we educate them, theycan make a massive, big
difference.
I think that's really good.
What are some simple andactionable strategies that shift
workers can use to improvetheir eating habits despite

(41:05):
circadian disruption and thechallenges that they actually
face?

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah, ideally, the sort of bottom line is we want
to minimize our food intake atnight and that could be having a
sort of larger dinner orbreakfast meal, but a larger
meal before you go into nightshift and then something a
lighter meal at the end of yournight shift, so you've had
something before you have yourday sleep, but not something
that's really going to be tooheavy and disrupt our sleep

(41:31):
During the night.
If you are going to eat, optingfor smaller snacks and
minimally processed foods, solike a handful of nuts, muesli
bars that are on the less sugary, less processed side fruit.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yogurt and berries.
I always say yogurt and berriesbecause it slows down the
oxidisation of the protein aswell.
The Babybel cheeses they're agood one as well.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
And I think if it's a night shift and you need that
chocolate bar, don't feel guilty.
I mean, we do that during theday as well.
If you need something or that'swhat you're really craving or
your body's telling you to have,that you can listen, you can
have that.
Maybe also add something withsome protein and fiber, so also
have a handful of nuts orsomething like that to make sure

(42:15):
you're also getting some energythat's going to sustain you
through that shift.
Caffeine as well we haven'treally touched on and again,
that's probably a whole likeseven other podcast episodes on
caffeine.
There's not a lot and I've gotan honest student at the moment.
We're going to be looking intothis but caffeine and food at
the same time, and you knowreally sugary lattes, for

(42:37):
example, that are almost a mealin themselves in terms of
calories yeah but, yeah, keep inmind caffeine use as well as
part of nutrition and obviouslyit's a great alertness tool at
night and we never want to takethat away because people use it
as an alertness tool, but beingmindful of your amount per 24
hours, so wanting to have thatsort of 400 milligrams per 24

(42:59):
hours at the most if you want itat your drive home.
So a lot of people use it tofeel alert on the drive home,
which, again, great foralertness, knowing that that
might impact your sleep.
Then when you get home, but ifyou need to have it, have it and
try and have some good sleephygiene behaviors, good sleep
routine when you get home to tryand maximize your sleepiness.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Caffeine is one that is really interesting and I'm
glad you've got an honeststudent that's working on this,
because this is exciting thatwe're looking at it.
I say to people that they needto cut their caffeine from
midnight, because I knowmajority of shift workers have
consumed a truckload of caffeineto get them going and keep them
going, and they would be welland truly up and around, well

(43:42):
and truly over their 400milligrams, particularly those
ones that are consuming thoseenergy drinks and taking
pre-workouts.
And, of course, we've seen theresearch on this with how it
impacts the subsequent sleep,which is the study that was
actually done in Australiaanyway, and I think this is
really interesting with that.
I'm a firm believer that evenjust sipping a cup of tea

(44:03):
overnight with just that smalleramount of caffeine can actually
just help to sustain it insteadof just completely cutting it.
Or, if you're going to have acoffee, make it last all night,
don't guzzle it, and then go andget another one.
40 milligrams per every twohours seems to be pretty good
for just keeping a person going.
Caffeine is another podcast.

(44:23):
Let's talk about caffeinebecause I'm all over these young
fellas at the moment that areslamming down these monster
energy drinks and just slammingthem down overnight with 160
milligrams of caffeine per hitand drinking two or three of
them, is just horrendousovernight and then they can't
sleep or they go to sleepbecause they're tired, but then
they're not getting the qualityrestorative sleep yeah, and what

(44:45):
we don't actually know from theresearch and again this is kind
of what I would like to headinto is we know sort of caffeine
at night and we're starting toknow food at night from what
myself and others have done.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
But the combination of caffeine and food, you know,
sitting down in the staff roomand having a coffee and
chocolate or cookies orsomething, and what the
combination of those things isdoing to our metabolism, you
know, is the food impacting theeffect of the caffeine or vice
versa?
Yeah, and so not at all to saythat that's a bad thing to do,

(45:18):
but we just don't know, we don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
That's what research is about.
Yeah, and hopefully we willknow.
We've got to learn.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
And then inform people on maybe the best way to
optimize that behavior.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, who knows, down the track we might be saying to
someone you know what, you'reprobably better off having a
caffeine.
I know Dr Alan Flanagan issomeone who says instead of
eating, you're probably betteroff having small amounts of
caffeine going through yoursystem all the time.
When I heard that, I thought,well, what do you mean?
Caffeine overnight?
And he goes.
Well, what's the worst of thetwo evils like, really, when you
look at it and I thought youknow what?
Because caffeine can be anappetite suppressant as well, to

(45:51):
stop you from actually eating.
It's an interesting one.
I love the theory.
Well, I'll look forward toseeing what actually comes out
of that as well.
Now your paper also suggeststhat workplace interventions
could help shift workers to eathealthier.
What is a realistic policy or achange that an employer could
actually implement?

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I mean at the base level, I think, chatting about
food and workplace having aresponsibility and talking about
their responsibility for whatpeople are eating and when We've
talked about the workplacesupplying different foods, and
that's a huge one.
So changing what's in thevending machines or adding to
the vending machines maybe If wecould change break times to

(46:31):
align with when people ideallyit's better to be eating, that
would be great, Very unrealistic.
So I think yeah, it's theeducation and awareness of food
intake at night and thesupplying different foods and
also ways to store food.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
I just wonder, if we were to put the vending machine
into a place that's got healthyfood in it, whether the food
would go off because peoplewouldn't touch it.
I think there's a company inAmerica or the UK that tried
this by putting healthy vendingmachines into 24 7 workplaces.
I haven't followed up.
I wonder how they're going asto whether people use it as a
choice or whether it just didn'twork because people as you've

(47:11):
said at the very beginning ofthis podcast, that people just
resign themselves to the factthat they're a shift worker, so
they eat unhealthy and they'regoing to be unhealthy.
It's quite interesting, isn'tit?

Speaker 1 (47:21):
I think I'd want to add to vending machines in my
ideal world, rather than takingaway like I would never want to
take away the delicious foods invending machines, but add some
other options, just so there isthat choice, Because during the
day, you know, if we don't likewhat's at a vending machine, we
could find another one or walkdown the road to a servo or a

(47:41):
Coles or something that's open,a deli.
I think the difference at nightis that that's the only option
and providing more choice.
So you know it's not our job tosay definitely eat this, but
people deserve to have the sameoptions that you would have
during the day.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, now we're in Australia, but I talk about
education.
If you look at a 7-Eleven,people would go into a 7-Eleven
and the first thing they seewhen they walk in is the donuts
and everything else like that.
But 7-Eleven get freshsandwiches and wraps dropped
every single day and you couldliterally whiz by a 7-Eleven and
grab those fresh sandwiches ora wrap and take it with you on

(48:18):
the road, no problems.
Or you could grab that withwhat they're there.
Not only are they delicious,but they're quite cheap as well,
considering what's there, andthey're fresh every single day
and I think people don't realizethat they're there, but they
tend to gravitate towards.
I'm on night shift.
Got to be a pine sauce, got toget a sausage roll, got to get a
donut, got to grab a can ofMonster to go with that.

(48:39):
But anyway, have you comeacross workplaces that have
actually successfullyimplemented strategies for their
employees around eating habits?
And, if you have, what can welearn from those?

Speaker 1 (48:50):
There's a study that I know of that's looked at
healthy vending machines.
I think they weren't supersuccessful but I think it was a
sort of direct swap of foodsthat people were eating to.
You know, maybe a vendingmachine of fruit, and it sort of
wasn't done in the most idealway In terms of actually
organizations that I know of, Iknow of a lot where employers

(49:14):
and the wellness teams chatabout nutrition as nutritionists
, as part of teams, and so Ithink the sort of education
piece around what are healthyfoods and what the best things
to be doing is there in a lot ofworkplaces could be improved
and could be added to a lot.
But is there it's adding thatpiece about timing and

(49:36):
optimizing eating behaviors andalso the kind of okay, we have a
nutritionist who can tell youthe best thing to eat, but
that's not available at nightanyway.
So I don't know of anyworkplaces and there may be some
, but I don't know of any thatare doing that.
In Australia A lot have sort ofstarting to work with to try
and get the nutrition piecegoing, so implementing it into

(49:59):
training new workers or youngshift workers coming in, but
again it sort of all comes backto we need the workplaces to be
providing different foods oroptions as well.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah with that.
And I also think your policy onmaking sure and I know you
think it's unrealistic but tohave policies where people are
at least getting a main breakbefore midnight to get that food
in For staff health and welfare, I think that's really
important that you go instead ofjust going oh, charlotte,
you've got your break at 2am,roger, you've got your break at

(50:33):
10.
Maybe swap it around the nextnight or whatever.
This is how it's got to go, sothat we're at least giving
people the opportunity or givingpeople that main break before
midnight.
Before that window of, wereally should not be eating at
this time.
If you could make one majorpolicy change to support a shift
worker's nutrition, what wouldit be?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
I think I'd really and again, it's probably coming
from my researcher brain butwould really want the education
and training piece to be a sortof mandatory part of any shift
working roles, part of any rolereally.
And if they all added, you know, lifting and there's how we
communicate and all of thosethings, and if we add in healthy

(51:14):
nutrition on shift and thatthat was part of policy that
everyone had to sort of thinkabout, that was part of policy
that everyone had to sort ofthink about that, because we
know it impacts long-term healthand wellbeing but also our
on-shift performance andproductivity and safety.
And so if we can get diet rightand if we can optimize that,
we're having improvements to allparts of life for a shift

(51:36):
worker.
And so, yeah, if I could get inand be right at the start of
training for new shift workersin companies, but also even at
university level, in nursingdegrees, for example, we could
get in and really chat about thebest ways to do this from the
start, I think that would beideal.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Spot on, totally agree with you on that.
It just comes down to education, because, without any doubt
whatsoever, I started shift worknearly 41 years ago now and I
worked through my whole entirecareer.
I was in the police.
I was never, ever, once evereducated on how to go about
doing shift work, whether it wasabout sleep, whether it was

(52:14):
about hydration, whether it wasabout stress management.
I can tell you now I know evennow that people are not educated
.
Every client that's come to me,one of the questions that I ask
them is what education have youhad around how to do shift work
, how to optimize your lifearound shift work?
No one, ever.
That's why I love what you guysare doing over there in just

(52:36):
getting the information outthere.
Then you've got people like methat have got lived experience
and are actually talking aboutthis as well, with social media
presence and getting it outthere to educate people with
what you amazing people aredoing over there to get that
information out, interpret it ina realistic environment, so I
can look at what you've come upwith research.

(52:58):
Like, as you've said, ideallyyou'd say to people you can't
have a break after midnight, butyou know that in a real lived
experience.
You have to have breaks allnight.
We can manipulate that and Ican make suggestions and
recommendations around thatbased on what the research is
telling us, and I think this iswhat is really important.
But I think the policy change,my policy change, would be that

(53:20):
every shift worker that goesinto shift work, it would be
compulsory for them to do someform of education around how to
optimize their life around shiftwork, because it has that much
of an impact on people.
That would be my policy change.
I know you'll agree with thatfor sure.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, definitely no-transcript target

(54:11):
establishing healthy habits fromthe start of your shift working
journey and, really, you know,making those accessible to
people that are just startingout, people at university who
are going into shift workingcareers but, like you said,
really getting into healthyhabits early.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
If I said to you, I've got a bucket of money here
for you.
What area of research would youabsolutely love to explore when
it comes to shift workerseating behavior?

Speaker 1 (54:36):
I mean, my ideal is working out what the healthiest
snack is to have at night.
What is the best option?
That sounds like something weshould know and I agree, but
it's something that we don'tknow from the research.
We don't know.
Yeah, I want to look atdifferent types of food,
different timing.
So what time is best for asnack at night, adding caffeine,

(54:58):
like we talked about, andthat's caffeine in foods like
chocolate, but then also coffeeand food?
But all these different ways ofcoming together and say, okay,
this is the ideal thing to eatat night and this is the ideal
time, how do we get that intoworkplaces at the workplace
organizational level?

Speaker 2 (55:15):
and also let's promote that to chip workers
don't you dare tell anybody else, because you and I are going to
market this product and makeourselves multi-millionaires at
the same time, because we willcome out with the night shift
snack and that's what it'll be,whether it's a bar, whether it's
a mix, a blend or whatever itis and we'll put our names on it
and we'll just make an absolutefortune.

(55:36):
I think that's the best way togo.
Love it, charlotte.
Thank you so much.
Finally, what is one takeawaythat you want shift workers to
remember from your research inyour journey?
What you've learned ineverything?
What is there one takeaway thatyou want a shift worker to
understand that's so importantto their wellbeing?

Speaker 1 (55:53):
That the timing of food intake matters, that it's
so important and it underpinsall the sort of health and
performance impacts of shiftwork is all of it can kind of
lead back to eating at nightAlso that I know saying that,
but that's not an easy thing tochange and to do differently.
But really trying to reduceyour food intake at night and

(56:15):
optimize that with a sort ofsmaller snack and not a meal
yeah, also, plug researchhealthyshiftworkcom, where we
have our resources that I talkedabout that are co-designed with
shift workers yeah, I guessalso a plug or a thank you to
you for all the work you do andI love being able to learn from
what you talk about andunderstand more about the lived

(56:36):
experience of shift workers.
That's always so important tohave embedded into the research
that we do to make sure we'reanswering the questions that
matter for people.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Thank you.
I do sincerely appreciate that.
Now I attended the launch ofyour Healthy Shift work.
Tell us what it is that you'vedone.
You've sort of touched on itand how important it is, because
you've been working on this foryears and you've got the
backing of universities, whichjust leaves me in a bit of a
trail behind, but I was excitedto see it.
It freaked me out a little bitbecause of what I'm doing and

(57:05):
what I want to do, but at theend of the day, we know that
somewhere between 18% and 22% ofthe world's population are
shift workers.
So let's get as muchinformation out there for the
shift workers as we can.
Charlotte, talk about it andtell us about it.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah, so healthyshiftworkcomau is our
website where we have a wholerange of information about sleep
, nutrition and physicalactivity targeted for shift
workers and we have someinfographics on there that you
can download on sleep, nutritionand physical activity and, like
I said earlier, they're allco-designed with shift workers.

(57:41):
So we, as researchers, had hugeinput from young shift workers,
experienced shift workers,ex-shift workers on what
information would be useful,what people wanted to know, what
was relevant to shift work,what wasn't, and created these
resources based on that.
And this was from funding froma few different funding bodies

(58:02):
to support this and through theAppleton Institute at Central
Queensland Uni where we work.
Yeah, we've officially launchedour website and our resources
and we're really hoping thatthey help, that they can be
widely distributed to people, sothey're all free to download
and they're started off byreally wanting to target young
shift workers, so people justentering the workforce to

(58:23):
establish those healthy habits.
But the information is relevantto everyone who is a shift
worker and who wants tounderstand more about these
behaviours.
Yeah, we're really hopeful thatwe get shift workers engaged.
We've also got informationabout four workplaces and
strategies that workplaces canimplement.
So we also want to target theworkplace as well, and we've

(58:46):
talked a lot about how it's theworkplace and organization as
well need to play a part in this, and so we've got information
for organizations as well, andwe're really keen to work with
organizations to tailor theresources specifically for
workplaces.
We could come and do talks,anything that we can do to

(59:07):
really get that information outthere, and I think it really
complements nicely the work youdo and this huge platform you
have Blue Shift Workers, thiscommunity you've built and, yeah
, definitely don't see it ascompeting although that is a fun
idea to be fighting for healthFriendly competition where we're
all wanting the best for shiftworkers and wanting to optimize

(59:30):
health how we can, and, yeah,we're all sort of going for the
same goal.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
We are.
We just want to make shiftworkers healthier, and people
send me messages and say, oh, Ican't thank you enough for the
information that you've put outthere and helped.
And I think, do you know what?
If you've helped one person,then you've actually achieved
and you've gone in the rightdirection to help a shift worker
to thrive, because that's yourpassion, that's my passion,
that's everyone's passion.
I know in the launch there wassome quite good names in the

(59:57):
launch there as well, myselfincluded, of course.
Dr Ian Dunican was in there aswell and of course, he does a
lot of work with the FIFOs.
He's a well-respectedresearcher as well and has
released a fantastic book.
If you haven't had a chance tohave a look at it, have a read
of that.
It's great Sleep and Shift Workand I think it's really, really
good.
But, charlotte, I'm veryindebted to you for giving up
your time.

(01:00:17):
I hope we can continue tocommunicate over the years in
relation to the work that youand your team, particularly your
honours student and, as she'sgoing, in relation to the
caffeine and food, becausethat's really exciting that
maybe implementing caffeine isthe right way to go or to come
up with the ultimate snack thatyou and I are going to market
and no one else is going to knowabout.
Obviously, charlotte, thank you.

(01:00:39):
And as a gift for coming ontothe show, because I'm a
multi-billionaire, if I boughtyou a house anywhere in the
world, but you have to live init for six months of the year,
I'll either buy it or I'll buildit and you get to live in it
right, but you have to live init for six months of the year.
Whether you're a winter personor a summer person, where is
your dream destination to go andlive and shut down from this

(01:01:01):
research, for six months of theyear?

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I mean, I think I would still want to bring my
laptop and do some research, butit's in the DNA, isn't it?
I'm quite a nerd, but, givenwe've been talking about food, I
think the best food I've had isFrance, and so, yeah, the
pastries, crepes, the yeah,excellent food and wine, and so,

(01:01:23):
yeah, I'd be happy withanywhere in France really the
south of France, somewhere inthe countryside in France.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
we'll do that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, like countryside, just beautiful old
building, cobblestone.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Beautiful green fields and all that beautiful
wine that you can have out there.
Charlotte, thank you so much.
Please, on behalf of all theshift workers and that's just
not me myself, but also everyonethat's listening we appreciate
you and the work that you areactually doing on behalf of our
shift workers to optimize ourlives and make it better for us.

(01:01:54):
Where can people find you?
And also, are you happy to hearfrom people like shift workers
to reach out with any ideas,suggestions or anything like
that that they've got as part ofyour work?
Or if you're looking for people, obviously come back through me
and I'll put it out there forthem.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Yeah, thank you.
I'm on Instagram, atDrCharlotteGookter, linkedin, if
you search my name and then myemail cgookter at cqeduau.
More than happy to hear frompeople, I want to make sure that
all the research I do isinformed by problems you're

(01:02:31):
facing or questions that youhave, and so really happy to
chat anytime, happy to come toorganizations and chat and learn
as well.
So, yeah, please reach out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Absolutely Well done, Charlotte.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
It's been fantastic and we'lltalk to you again in the very
near future, no doubt.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
And there you have it .
That's Dr Charlotte GuptaFantastic chat.
I could literally pick aboutfive or six topics out of that
podcast and I could have made awhole new podcast out of each of
them, and maybe one day weactually will.
I look forward to the researchfrom an honest student in
relation to the caffeine,developing that ultimate snack

(01:03:12):
and becoming a multi-millionaireand being able to retire.
We'll move on from that, butanyway, the bottom line is great
chat.
All of the links to Charlotte Iwill put into the show notes
with what they're doing.
You can go there.
If you got any value out of thepodcast, please don't forget
hit follow, share it, share itwith other people.

(01:03:32):
All I want to do is getevidence-based strategies out
there for shift workers so thatwe learn the optimal way to go
about doing shift work, becausepeople like Dr Charlotte Gupta
and her team are doing a lot ofresearch and that research will
literally just sit in journalsif it's not put out by people

(01:03:53):
like myself, speaking to themand getting it in their own
terms so that you can hearexactly what the latest research
is telling us about it.
Thanks very much and I'll catchyou on the next one.
Thank you for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe so you get
notified whenever a new episodeis released.

(01:04:13):
It would also be ever sohelpful if you could leave a
rating and review on the appyou're currently listening on.
If you want to know more aboutme or work with me, you can go
to ahealthyshiftcom.
I'll catch you on the next one.

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[244] - Dr Charlotte Gupta - Factors influencing the eating behaviour of shiftworkers

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}[244] - Dr Charlotte Gupta - Factors influencing the eating behaviour of shiftworkers