[249] - Matt Newlands - Checking in on your mates, but what are we looking for? - A Healthy Shift

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Not only can we get people to do these roles that
are really challenging andreally difficult, but not at the
expense of their own health andwell-being.
There has to be a way in whichwe can look at a long-term,
sustainable careers where peoplecan thrive in these
environments.
But that takes work and thattakes a lot of work, and it
takes people like yourself toshare the knowledge that you
have.
And it takes organizations likeAussie Frontline, frontline

(00:20):
Mental Health and others thatare out there to help get around
the community that we'retalking about mental health and
others that are out there tohelp get around the community
that we're talking about shiftwork community, first responder
community, to provide them withthe education so that they're
best prepared for thischallenging role.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Shift work can be brutal, but it doesn't have to
be welcome to a healthy shift.
My name is rogerutherland,certified nutritionist, veteran
law enforcement officer and 24-7shift worker for almost four
decades.
Through this podcast, I aim toeducate shift workers, using
evidence-based methods, to notonly survive the rigors of shift

(00:57):
work but thrive.
My goal is to empower shiftworkers to improve their health
and well-being so they have moreenergy to do the things they
love.
Enjoy today's show and welcomeback to a Healthy Shift podcast.
I'm your host, Roger Sutherland, and today we're going to be

(01:17):
talking about how we go abouthaving those conversations with
people who we've noticedbehavior change in may very well
be in a depressed state andtheir mental health is really
starting to suffer.
Now, what I do want to do is Iwant to put a disclaimer on this
episode to start off with,because we will be talking about

(01:39):
mental health and we will alsobe talking about having
conversations with people aroundsuicide.
So if this is something thatyou're not comfortable with or
you've had incidents like thisyourself, then please.
There's another catalogue outthere of a whole range of
podcasts that you can listen toObviously a healthy shift ones,

(02:00):
but the most important thing isthat you understand that this is
the conversation and what wewill be talking about.
My guest today is Matt Newlands.
Now Matt is a former policeofficer of 10 years in the South
Australian Police and is nowthe co-founder of Frontline
Mental Health, which is anAdelaide-based national company
providing customised mentalhealth and workplace training to

(02:23):
organisations around Australia.
How do we identify in ourcolleagues that they may in fact
be struggling?
It's not just an incident andthey've tied it to an incident
where they're having problems,but it's actually more than that
and you can see that theirmental health is spiralling.
What are we actually lookingfor?

(02:44):
And then, once we start tonotice that, how do we broach
those conversations?
How do we approach them andhave a conversation with them
around this, and what is therethat we can say that could very
well make a huge amount ofdifference?
It's a fantastic episode this.
I really, really enjoyed myconversation with Matt.
I met him recently at afrontline event after I knew who

(03:08):
he was from around the Aussiefrontline days.
But I finally got to meet theman in person and I was excited
to have him on the podcast toaddress this conversation.
So let's have the conversationwith him and I bring to you Matt
Newlands.
Matt, welcome to a HealthyShift podcast.
Can you start by sharing a bitabout your background in

(03:29):
policing and what it was thatactually led you to co-found
Frontline Mental?

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Health.
Yeah, thanks so much, roger.
It's a real privilege to behere, coming from Frontline
headquarters, so apologies ifthere's a bit of background
noise or the traffic outside,but mate how I got started 10
years with the South AustraliaPolice.
I was in from 2006 until 2016.
I actually separated from thepolice in quite dramatic
circumstances, but really at itscore was around my own personal

(03:55):
mental health challenges as aresult of service.
So I picked up some labelspost-traumatic stress,
depression on my way out andalso struggled with things that
I think are well-beaten path formany around suicidality.
I struggled with anger.
I used alcohol as a copingstrategy and spent a couple of
years trying to get myself wellagain.
And then it was 2018, I startedto shift my attention to how

(04:18):
might I be able to look atsharing some of the things that
I learned from other people andfrom my own experiences, what I
might be able to do to bringthat to the military and first
responder community.
So I started to work quiteclosely in that community and
frontline mental health was bornin 2023 with a focus and
intention of trying to look ateducation.
How can we front load firstresponders and military

(04:40):
personnel with the information,the mental health literacy, the
wellbeing practices to help themhave, I guess, a long,
sustainable career.
And that was really the initialfocus and we've branched out
into a few different areas whichwe may or may not touch on over
the podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Well, let's absolutely touch on them.
Matt, I'd heard about youthrough the Aussie Frontline,
which is a not-for-profitorganisation in Australia which
looks after the front.
I think we should give the boysa plug here, because the work
that they're doing is phenomenaland you are very involved with
them.
Now I followed your journeyfrom there and then I heard you

(05:15):
speak at the Aussie Frontlineevent on the Gold Coast last
month and I thought it was justso pertinent and your journey
actually it's quite ironic.
It actually hit so many rawnerves with me as well because
of my own experience of what I'dgone through and here we both
are when you look at it thatyou've turned that into a

(05:35):
positive to help people.
And I've done the same thing,not so much in the mental health
space, although it does help,but I've done it with to support
shift workers in what they needto do.
So it really resonated and Iknew we would just get along
like a house on fire and Iwaited a goddamn ages to try and
collar you.
You're a very popular man atthese conferences and I can

(05:56):
understand why because it was afantastic keynote that you
delivered which really resonated.
Now, what was the turning pointfor you in recognising the need
for better mental healtheducation and support in our
frontline workers.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
I'll come back to the point you said about Aussie
Frontline, because I think it'sdirectly linked to the turning
point.
So Marley Brooks, who is one ofthe directors of Aussie
Frontline he is a very goodfriend of mine and was critical
to, I guess, helping support methrough an extremely challenging
time in my career.
So the period there of about2013 to 2015, where I had become

(06:32):
quite unwell, marley wasabsolutely walking alongside me,
supporting me during that time,and so one of the driving
supports, if you like, forfrontline mental health has been
Marley, has been the Aussiefrontline guys and that includes
Dr Dan Pronk as well, sincehe's joined forces with Marley
and what we wanted to startlooking at doing was looking at
ways in which we would be ableto provide the support that

(06:54):
Marley provided me during adifficult time.
How can we take that tomilitary and first responders
more broadly?
And I think, after spending afew years so that 2018 period
that I spoke about 2018 forwardsto about 2023, spending time
with military and firstresponders who were still
navigating challenges it was arealization, I think, around.

(07:16):
Well, what did I need duringthat time when I was unwell, and
are there things that I couldhave known or maybe understood
about mental health andwell-being more broadly, because
, to your point, the shift workyou know, diet, nutrition
there's so many contributingfactors that go into one's
mental health and well-being andthey are sort of like closely
aligned.
So that was really where I guessthe turning point for us was to

(07:39):
let's focus on education, oneducation If we can educate and
we can provide an opportunityfor empowerment, for ownership,
for personal responsibility andhow we might be able to navigate
our shift working careers.
One of the fundamental drivingforces is we believe in, I guess
, a future that the sacrifice ofpersonal health and wellbeing

(08:00):
and sacrifice of relationshipsdoes not have to be the cost for
these roles.
I think that we can find a waythat not only can we get people
to do these roles that arereally challenging and really
difficult, but not at theexpense of their own health and
wellbeing.
There has to be a way in whichwe can look at a long-term,
sustainable careers where peoplecan thrive in these
environments.
But that takes work and thattakes a lot of work and it takes

(08:20):
people like yourself to sharethe knowledge that you have, and
it takes organizations likeAussie Frontline, frontline
Mental Health and others thatare out there to help get around
the community that we'retalking about shift work
community, first respondercommunity to provide them with
the education so that they'rebest prepared for this
challenging role.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Oh, that's fantastic.
There's one phrase that Iabsolutely hate, which came from
supervisors, and I know thatyou will have heard it yourself,
because it would have been saidto you at some stage this is
what you signed up for, mate.
It's just such a terrible termto use, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (08:53):
It is.
I think it acknowledges that,yes, this is difficult, but it
also doesn't give any space foropportunities to learn beyond
what we've maybe previouslyunderstood or we've previously
done and we've learned lotsduring that process.
It would be like trying to, Iguess, take a World War II
capability in the military andapply that in 2025 and go, hey,
you knew what you signed up for.

(09:13):
So, no, we've understood things, things have advanced, we've
learned more.
We've got different strategies,different wellbeing practices
now that can help shift workers,help the first responder
community, in navigating thesecareers.
So, yes, they're difficult andyes, we still need people to
work at three o'clock in themorning and do really difficult
and challenging things.
But there's also other thingsthat we've now learned and
understood.
Why would we not then try toput those support and resources

(09:35):
and review the way that we'vedone things?
Is there a better way?
Is there an alternate way?
And explore what that lookslike.
Otherwise, we're just acceptingthat what is, that's it, and
that to me doesn't really feellike an evolution or that
doesn't really apply with thepragmatic problem solvers.
That is the first respondercommunity that we have.
We've got a cohort of people inthe community that are looking

(09:56):
at these things and looking atthe challenges and trying to
find ways of maybe doing thingsdifferently and doing things
better, and there's a whole heapof information that people have
learned, people have studiedand many of us have lived those
roles and have found strategiesthat might contribute to a
healthier version.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Oh, totally.
Just because we've done it thisway in the past doesn't mean
it's the right way to go movingforward, and unfortunately, I
find that.
Well, I can only speak about myown organization and I think we
are totally stuck in.
This is what you signed up for.
This is what it is.
I think it's just incrediblyignorant.
And they all stand there on thepodium talking about it, saying

(10:32):
we're addressing mental healthand we're talking to our people
and all the rest of it.
We all know that that is notcorrect and I think people are
discarded.
The avenue of this podcast thatI wanted to take with you, Matt,
which you and I have discussedpreviously, because I was really
excited.
We hear that we've got to checkin on our mates all the time,

(10:53):
but we don't really know whatwe're looking for.
I personally don't think,because we all think, oh, is the
person sitting in a dark roomat the end of their bed with a
gun in their hand?
I mean, this is what we thinkof as depression.
I know myself.
When I was diagnosed withdepression myself, I went.
I'm not depressed.
I don't sit in a dark room witha gun in my hand wanting to

(11:15):
commit suicide.
I'm not depressed.
What are you talking about?
I didn't realize how depressioncan present in so many
different ways to people.
Now, we always hear about theimportance of checking in on our
mates and our colleagues, butin reality, Matt, what is there
that we should really be lookingfor in their behaviours and

(11:36):
their demeanour and the way theyactually are?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
You're right.
There is absolutely been asocial narrative around trying
to, firstly, promote that peoplecan put their hand up and say
when they're struggling, but weoften say as well that it's
really important for individualsto also know well, what does
that look like?
Well, how would I know if I'mstruggling?
To then put my hand up, becauseI don't think people
necessarily just wake up one dayand then just have these, you
know, really challengingthoughts and maybe behaviors

(12:00):
that aren't conducive to ahealthy lifestyle.
These things slowly show up andthey creep in, and sometimes we
, as the individual who isexperiencing them, we might be
the last to recognize or thelast to see what's happening,
and it's those around us thatmight be able to pick these
changes beforehand.
So, whilst the social narrativeis a really important one, and
we have to still continue toaddress stigmas that might exist

(12:20):
to prevent people from seekinghelp, what we really want to be
doing, though, is reallyfostering a culture of checking
in.
How can we then lean into thesereally difficult and meaningful
conversations with people thatwe love and care about?
One of the bits of researchthat came out recently from RUOK
was that about almost half thepopulation didn't think that
they were the right person toeven have the conversation.
They either felt that theyweren't qualified or maybe they

(12:43):
weren't confident to check inand ask the question.
Because what I hear in mycommunity, when I go to
organizations and talk to peopleon one-on-one or, you know, big
audiences, one of the biggestbarriers can be well, what if
the person isn't going so great?
What if I do ask them howthey're going and they say I'm
not going very good at all?
Oops, what do I do now?
That's right.
What do we then do?
Well, the short answer is welisten to them and we sit

(13:04):
alongside them.
But I think, coming back to thequestion, what are the things?
There's a nuanced approach tothis.
I like to really highlight thefact that, as friends, as family
, as colleagues, we are oftenthe experts in each other's
words, behaviors, potentiallyeven thoughts, if they've been
shared with us because we'vespent time getting to know the
person.
Obviously, like for you and I,roger, we're still, I guess,

(13:30):
very new in our friendship, butthere's probably already
characteristics and things thatyou've seen in me that might
become a usual or an expected ora normal whatever word you want
to put to it.
And then it's when we startpicking up on some of those
changes in that.
So maybe it might be reallyobvious things that people are
saying around words.
Maybe at the end of a nightshift I might be coming out to
the night shift breakfast, wherewe all go out at the end of our
night shifts before we go intoour days off and we all go have

(13:51):
breakfast together.
Maybe it's the things that I'msaying you know, don't worry, go
without me, you guys won't wantme there anyway, like I'll just
be a dampener on the morning orhowever it comes across.
Sometimes it's not as overt anddirect and it might be just
slight things that people say,but then there might be those
behaviors.

(14:11):
Maybe there is the intentionalwithdrawal Behaviors might look
like I might normally come tothe gym and might train with the
team before I start my shift,but I'm not showing up anymore.
Or I'm coming into the gym andI'm just sitting on the bike
over in the corner whileeverybody else is still in the
circuit.
Maybe I'm just turning up righton time for my shift.

(14:31):
Or maybe I'm turning up superearly and I'm just distracting
myself with work and I've got somuch going on and you might be
thinking that's not how Mattusually operates.
Things are slightly off here, sosometimes it can be really over
direct stuff of saying thingslike what's the point?
Oh, you should go for thatpromotion.
Oh why, oh, why, like, there'sno point, I'm not going to get
it anyway.
That defeatist attitude cansometimes show up.
But I would often just say topeople if you think that, like,

(14:51):
if you have those fleetingmoments, so you go that was a
bit out of character for the waythat matt just said that, or
that's not usually a word hemight use, or he's usually here
doing these things that's goingto be the catalyst, like, like
that gut feeling, that's thecatalyst to go.
You know what, matt, I'm not sosure that things are going so
great.
Let's have a chat.
Let's have a chat about what'sgoing on.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I know in my own I can talk about myself just for a
minute when I was diagnosedwith depression and I thought
what?
No, that's not me.
When certain things werepointed out to me, I then
realized it had nothing to dowith isolation and sitting over
there by myself.
It was chasing the dopamine hitall the time.
It was adding to shopping cartonline shopping and adding to

(15:36):
cart to chase that dopamine hit.
It was doing everything else Icould possibly do other than
dealing with what I had toactually deal with all the time.
So it was that distraction andwhen it was flagged with me and
we went through my ownbehaviours, it wasn't being
angry, it wasn't beingdisappointed, it wasn't being

(15:56):
anything else.
It was the distraction to notaddress it, which was a real red
flag for my counsellors.
When I was speaking to them, oneof the main questions they
asked me was how long are youactually spending on the
business every day?
Oh God, I probably spend 12hours.
I get up first thing in themorning and I'm on it all day,

(16:17):
straight away.
Their red lights are going andI'm thinking why is that a
problem Too much?
It's a distraction fromactually dealing with those
things.
So I think that this issomething that's really
important, and I think alsoalcohol, pornography, gambling
is another one as well, isn't it?
And we can talk about all ofthose.
Now, what are some of the keysigns?

(16:37):
I mean, I've probably coveredoff on some of mine, but what
are some of the key signs andsymptoms of declining mental
health in frontline workers?
And we talk about the militaryas well when we talk about this.
All right, so what are some ofthe key signs and symptoms of
declining mental health infrontline workers that often go
unnoticed?

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Some of these things that I'll talk about often go
unnoticed, because, again, likeI was saying before, is that
they don't just show upovernight.
They slowly creep in and thenwe normalise them because that's
just what everybody else isexperiencing as well.
So when we start thinking aboutsleep disturbances or sleep
difficulties I know that we'lltouch on this in a little bit
more detail shortly, that'soften a key factor is when we're
starting to have difficultiesgoing to sleep, staying asleep,

(17:16):
or the levels of sleep thatwe're getting aren't as good.
We're not waking up feelingrested.
So these are the things that wecan often normalize, because we
go oh, it was just a badnight's sleep, I'll catch up or
I'll wait till the end of myroster cycle.
You know, I'll rest on theweekend, I'll sleep in and I'll
do these things, and so wereassure ourselves that it's not
that big of a deal.
It's certainly something weneed to monitor and not just
discount and sign off.

(17:37):
Alcohol, as you said, is anotherone.
That was mine.
I felt that it was a usefulcoping strategy and it is.
We have to name the elephant inthe room.
Like alcohol works until itdoesn't, like there's actually,
you know, it's useful until it'snot and it's healthy until it's
not.
And I think that's where thetrap we can fall into is that we
think that by maybe having aglass of wine maybe there's that
depressant we feel sleepy.

(17:58):
It disconnects from some of theemotional responses that we
might be having, but we knowthat it's impacting our sleep in
a significant way.
So alcohol use or abuse,depending on how people align
themselves with it, is certainlya key sign.
And again, there's lots ofcontributing factors as to why
we can normalize the drinkingculture.
Short fuse, I think those of usthat can often find ourselves

(18:20):
really impatient, more so athome.
I would suspect that that showsup for a lot of people and
that's a common thing that'sreflected back to me.
Yeah, there's lots ofcontributing factors.
We can often then justnormalize that by saying I'm
just tired, I've had a difficultshift, and so we normalize
these things.
Heightened anxiety, you knowthis can often look like going
and doing the grocery shoppinghaving significant emotional

(18:41):
responses or adverse effectsthat we don't necessarily
rationalize or can't necessarilyput our finger as why we're
feeling that way.
Sometimes we can, you know,leave, we abandon trolleys, we
go and sit in the car and go.
What the hell Like what wasthat?
Sometimes they're not assignificant.
We might just notice that we're, you know, breathing a bit
quicker and our heart rate'sincreased in different
environments.
So these are the things that wewant to just be going, that's,

(19:03):
you know, just maybe a small redflag that goes up that we go.
What's that?
What's that about?
And what's my body doing?
What's it trying to tell me?
Am I listening to the messagesthat my body's telling me in
these moments?
Some of the other stuff that Iknow for a lot of people happens
is disengagement from, like,social settings or disengagement
from things that would normallybring them joy.
So often I'm finding in roomsof people who have spent some

(19:25):
time in first responder roles isthat when I say to them, when
was the last time you felt joyand this might be a question for
your listeners to consider whenwas the last time you felt joy?
Some of us might find thatquestion quite confronting or
challenging, because we don'trecall, we don't remember.
So that might just be anothersign of saying what am I doing
to try to bring something thatis like an emotional response

(19:46):
into my life?
And then there's some morereally glaringly obvious things
as well, like this disconnectfrom hope or not necessarily
considering that, well, anythingthat I'm doing is worthwhile.
I think law enforcement,everyone's a crook.
They just haven't been caughtyet.
You know, I'm just aconsequence to people's bad
actions.
These are some of the thingsthat I've felt myself, and they

(20:08):
might just be key signs that,hey look, maybe I'm not
travelling so great.
And is that a healthy worldview?
Is this an accurate andtruthful perspective of the
world around me, or is this onethat's been conditioned by the
environment that I'm spendingmost of my time in?
So there might be a bit there.
There's probably a few thingsthat listeners are hearing.
Look, there's going to be lotsmore that people are going to
have their own personalexperiences with as well.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
There's two that I really want to cash in on here,
and one is when you talked aboutthe supermarket.
I know myself that if you'restanding in a line and someone
does something silly and youjust go off, you can feel
yourself go off and then youthink, wow, but you normalize
that because you just go off.
You can feel yourself go offand then you think wow, but you
normalize that because you justthink, oh God, people are so
stupid, what are they doing thatfor?

(20:50):
There's a lot of things thatcan highly agitate your
relationships with certainmembers of your family.
Oh, they just piss me off, theyjust really annoy me.
And what's going on there?
That's one that you have toreally look at too, because I
know that there was situationsin my journey, and it wasn't
until I started working reallyquite hard on my mental health
with my meditation, breath workand things like that, that I

(21:12):
realized the difference.
Looking back now as to howgoddamn heightened I actually
was, that was one of them.
You've touched on that as wellwith yours.
You get in the car and youthink, geez, where'd that come
from?
Or you're at a position whereyou end up at a road rage and
you find yourself out of the caryelling and screaming at
someone and you think, my God,that's not me.

(21:33):
What happened there?
That's one.
The other one that I have amajor concern with at the moment
Matt and I'm doing researcharound this and in fact, I'm
putting together something onsocial media to address this
particular issue and that isthese first responders nursing
frontline health and people whowork in these jobs smashing
these energy drinks.

(21:53):
Right, I've got a real opinionon this and I know people are
going to really dislike myopinion on it, and that's okay.
I accept that One of thebiggest problems that we had,
and what research is showing aswell, is the more of these
energy drinks that we consume,the more it dulls our dopamine
hit.
Now Huberman's covered off onthis as well, because while
you're smashing these energydrinks, you're having to do more

(22:17):
in your job to try and get thatdopamine hit to the stage where
you won't have any dopamineleft.
So there will be no fun in thejob and it will fall apart for
you.
Is that an observation that youactually see for mental health
as well with this?
Because we know that sleep iseverything, but these energy
drinks contain just absolutebucket loads of caffeine, which

(22:38):
is impacting on good, solid,restorative sleep.
Sleep is so important, isn't it?
Sleep?

Speaker 1 (22:44):
is fundamental.
It's critical to justwell-being, just full stop to
the human experience andnavigating life.
I think Dr Dan Prong has spokenabout the importance of sleep
in his keynote.
In fact he's got a navigatingsleep for this reason, a
workshop or a course availablethrough the Aussie Frontline
page.
We know that it's important.
To be fair, I think I hadn'tnecessarily connected the

(23:04):
dopamine to the energy drinks.
As far as consumption, what Iwill say is that I know that
during my experience working inthis law enforcement position
and working in a proactive rolewhere I was constantly being
exposed to, I guess, heighteneddistress in other people and
really challenging, excitingenvironments, I was almost
addicted to the physiologicalresponse that was happening in

(23:28):
my body when these things happen.
The adrenaline dump, the fearthat would potentially come with
some of these experiences aswell.
That becomes something that I'mdrawn to and I guess the more
exposure to that, the more it'skind of needed or heightened to
get the same sort of hit.
We're still talking about justchemical changes in one's body.
So I think, constantly workingin these environments where we

(23:49):
are going from one high, intensejob to the next and we're
constantly cycling through this,and whether that's either
through, I guess, introducedchemicals, like we're putting
caffeine or energy drinks andthings into our body or just
being exposed to thoseenvironments and we're riding
this constant roller coaster ofup down that has to be having a
significant effect on usphysiologically and, in turn, is

(24:10):
going to have a significantimpact on our mental health and
just our overall well-being.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, what I can't get through to people to
understand.
I know it's easy from myperspective, but the more
caffeine that you consume, themore of it you need to actually
cope, and the less you have, theless you actually need it,
which people won't believe, butthose that have given up
caffeine and stopped it, I thinkhave improved, because their

(24:37):
sleep improves, which meanseverything improves in so many
different ways.
Why do you think there is sucha gap in the education and
awareness when it comes tomental health in emergency
services and frontline health?

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Look, there's probably a couple of
contributing factors to it.
One which you probably touchedon already is around like well,
this is what we signed up for.
So I think, then, that there'smaybe previously been and I
think we're going a long way toshifting the cultural view on
this but there's been, I guess,a narrative around well, you
knew what you were gettingyourself into, and if you're not
able to cope with this and dealwith this, then that's probably

(25:12):
a reflection on the individual,so maybe just get out of the
job and let someone else in.
I think we've had warped viewson what we think this term
resilience means, around whenreally we've used resilience to
describe things like enduranceor tolerance, that we've just
had this expectation that peoplewill operate at really high
levels for long periods of time,and the moment they can't, we
then just go oh well, you needto be more resilient, and that's
not necessarily a usefulconversation either.

(25:33):
It's.
We have to be looking at well,how do we actually recover from
challenge and how do we recoverfrom difficulty so that we're
ready to go again?
I think one of the analogiesI'll just touch on briefly there
is, like you don't necessarilysee, like elite sport teams.
They don't play a game onSaturday and then they play a
game on Sunday and then play agame on Monday and then knock
out their season inside.
You know, two weeks, if youwander around sort of Adelaide

(25:54):
or Henley Beach on a Mondaymorning, there's a good chance
you'll see the Crows or PortAdelaide team, you know, wading
through the water or sitting andhaving a coffee or something,
because there has to be arecovery, recovery stage,
exactly.
So I think because, to yourpoint before around, well, this
is how we've been, this is howwe've always done it.
I think there's that and that'schanging.
I think we are going a fair waynow around trying to change the

(26:15):
narrative around education.
You know, the work that you do,the podcast that you put out
and the information that youprovide a value to shift workers
helps with that.
We hear other people stories,whether that be other podcast
series.
You know Zero Limits is anothergood one where we've got
different people who have hadtheir own experiences of working
in these roles and sharing thelessons that they've learned,
and a lot of it is now thatshared knowledge of how about?

(26:38):
I don't do what you did, andone of the phrases that I love
is that life is life's bestteacher.
So if we can learn from our ownlife, if we can look back and
reflect on the things that maybewe've done that worked well for
us, and maybe the things thatdidn't work so well for us, that
can help set us up for successin the future.
And if I can learn from others'experiences as well, then again

(26:58):
that can help me.
So I think we're seeingorganizational shifts around
trying to look at the educationaround mental health.
I think we're seeingorganizational shifts around
trying to look at the educationaround mental health.
I think it's.
I think it would be hardpressed to find a leader of
first responder organizationthat's not aware of and maybe
considering changes that arerequired to mental health
education.
But that's like trying to turna big ship at sea and it takes

(27:19):
time and it's got so many movingparts and so many complex
levels.
So I think there is a gap.
We're doing the best we can totry to help bridge that gap
through, you know, whether thatbe funded programs, where
organizations are paid to comein and provide education, or
whether it's just also thecollateral stuff as well, where
we're just hearing someoneelse's experience and learning

(27:40):
maybe the things that they didthrough podcasts or through
downloadable PDFs, or justtrying to get a clear picture of
what it actually looks like tomanage my mental health and
wellbeing in this space.
I think we've still got a wayto go, but we're chipping away.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, and I think there's some really good books
around now that have beenwritten by people isn't there?
We saw this at the AussieFrontline event.
There are some fantastic books,like Keith Banks as well, with
his books and I can't rememberthe names of the other guys.
I've got to be honest with youbut there's a lot of books that
are coming out now about peoplewho have been in a crisis.
I mean, I've got a bookcasefull here of books from people

(28:15):
who have been in crisis and howthey have navigated their way
out of it.
There is a common theme though,matt, unfortunately, and I
think the common theme isthey've had to take the
responsibility themselves tonavigate out.
A lot of them have had greattherapists or people that
they've been able to talk tothat have helped them not from

(28:36):
their organisation, which Ithink is the saddest thing.
I know myself.
The diagnosis of PTSD, anxietyand depression literally signed
my death warrant.
That was the end of it, right,and I think this has to change
in, particularly policing andthings like that, now that we
have to be looking at it becauseas an injury I know there's a

(28:56):
technical term for PTSD and PTSIand it's got to be a disorder
because it's got to fit acriteria.
I understand that.
But I think the most importantthing is that we change that
into an injury, because peoplecan recover and they do recover
well, and I'm testimony to that,because the longer I'm away
from touching the fire with myhand and not burning my hand

(29:18):
anymore, so I'm getting betterand better myself, and I think
that's something that's reallyimportant.
So I think people need to gethold of some of these books,
have a read of them and helpthem to challenge their way out
of what they've got to do.
But my message out of that isbut you've got to take
responsibility yourself andreach out and ask that question.

(29:38):
You have to ask the question orI'm struggling, I need some
help.
Absolutely, that's what itneeds to be.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think you highlight a really important point there
around the personalresponsibility piece.
I think it can sometimes bereal easy for us to externalize
the responsibility onto othersaround us, and I think
organizations do absolutely playa part in ensuring that
appropriate support andresources are available to the
people within the organizationsto engage with the terms lead a

(30:03):
horse to water all that sort ofstuff.
There does have to be anelement of personal
responsibility and buy an activeengagement in your own
well-being and taking theactionable steps that are
available to us.
And that doesn't mean we haveto necessarily go and buy an
exclusive gym membership.
We don't have to go and engagewith these really expensive
hyperbaric chambers and ice barsand some of that stuff.

(30:25):
Effective, great, yeah, but for, like, what are the things that
we can do day in, day out?
Am I focusing on my sleep?
You know I can do that for free.
What am I doing around that?
Can I access education andsupport resources through my
organization?
Maybe some of us can, some ofus can't.
So there's work thatorganizations can do.
But can I focus on my caffeineand alcohol intake?

(30:45):
Can I look at physical movementand what part that might be
playing in my health andwell-being.
So it does require thiscollaboration, if you like, of
organizations, ensuring thatthey have the most appropriate
response If someone does becomeunwell, how we might be able to
rehabilitate them back to healthand back to the version of
themselves that might berequired to be operational again

(31:06):
.
We can't still keep beating thisdrum of you know.
When someone gets unwell, wediscard them and we just try to
replace them, because we arelosing immense experience and a
wealth of knowledge, even fromthe individual's perspective.
Like you and I, we've picked upthese labels along the way.
They don't serve me very well.
I don't discount them for otherpeople, but I know that all

(31:26):
that tells me is that there'scertain challenges in life that
I've had to maybe now navigate,but I've got strategies usually
that can help me navigate those.
So I'm learning from them andI'm adapting and I'm putting
things in place.
We start talking about thepost-traumatic growth model,
which I'm happy to talk a littlebit more about if we've got
time.
But we start talking aboutthose that are able to turn,

(31:47):
struggle to strength, those thatare able to come beyond the
challenge and thrive because ofit and not be a victim to it.
So there's absolutely a wholeheap of research and experiences
where this shows that this canhappen and it might not be for
everybody, but I appreciate thatis lost value from an
organization's perspective.
So I think there has to be acultural shift that occurs

(32:11):
across, really like the entirefirst responder military
community, around how weactually consider mental
injuries or mental healthchallenges in the workplace.
And sometimes labels arehelpful because it might give us
a plan as to how to work withit, but it's more about well,
what's that individualexperiencing and are they still
able to contribute immensewealth to the organisation?

(32:31):
Often that's the case, so wehave to have a space and
conversation around that yeah,totally agree with you.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
I hope you're enjoying the show.
If you are, please don't forgetto rate and review once you've
finished.
This helps the show's reachenormously.
And have you got my free ebookthe best way to eat on night
shift?
Well, this is a comprehensiveguide to the overnight fast, why
we should fast and how to bestgo about it.
I've even included a fewrecipes to help you.

(33:01):
I've put a link to the ebook inthe show notes.
And are you really strugglingwith shift work and feel like
you're just crawling from oneshift to the next?
Well, I've got you.
If you would like to work withme, I can coach you to thrive,
not just survive, whileundertaking the rigours of 24-7
shift work.
I also conduct in-house livehealth and wellbeing seminars

(33:26):
where I will come to yourworkplace and deliver
evidence-based information tohelp your wellbeing team to
reduce unplanned leave andincrease productivity in your
workplace.
I've put the links in the shownotes to everything mentioned.
You can find me athealthyshiftcom or on Instagram
at a underscore healthy,underscore shift.

(33:49):
Now let's get back to the show.
There are forums on theinternet absolutely
chock-a-block full of sad sacksthat are crying in their beer.
And if you're sitting aroundwaiting for the organisation to
come and save you.
You're going to be waiting along time because they're not
coming right.
You have to take responsibilityyourself to open up and ask the

(34:10):
question and then people willactually put the strategies and
things in place to support you,and that was the best thing I
did.
I think the hardest thing toever ask is for help.
That's the hardest thing toadmit that you're struggling and
to ask for help.
We just absolutely have to dothat and take that

(34:30):
responsibility.
And I know in my own keynotes,when I talk to shift working
organizations, I tell them thatit's a lack of education and
it's not your fault.
It's absolutely not your faultthat you haven't been educated
as to how to go about shift work, but it is your responsibility
to learn how to go about doingit.
Now you've done shift work for10 years and I did it for a

(34:51):
little longer, and you and Iboth know that shift work is an
absolute beast just on its own.
By just doing the shift work,let's not talk about the
exposure that we're exposed to,but what is your understanding
of the impact of circadianmisalignment on mental health,
of frontline health and firstresponders?
Okay, a lot of this with.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Like I'm no doctor and I would certainly encourage
people to explore thisthemselves.
It does come up a lot and it'scertainly in, I guess, the
counseling role that I have nowwithin frontline mental health
and that part of the business.
Just speaking to people ingeneral, sleep is one of the
first things that we look at.
We know that really, like thatcircadian misalignment, it's
absolutely having an impact onour body.
We're trying to fight againstwhat our body is default trained

(35:33):
to do and it's trying to do andwe're trying to put things in
place to stop it from doing that.
So that is going to have along-term adverse effect.
At some point.
There has to be some impact.
So we have to just acknowledgethat.
Coming back to the point yousaid around the education piece,
we know shift work is hard.
We often will then draw on theexperiences of those around us
to look at how do we manage that.

(35:53):
So what are the things we do?
And everyone's got a differentapproach, you know, like I think
for me, I don't think I everreally got it down pat and as to
what the best approach was, andmaybe that's like the answer
here is that sometimes I wouldtry to sleep after a night shift
, and then I would try to stayup through the day and then go
to work at 11 o'clock at night.
Other times I would come homeat, say, seven, eight o'clock in
the morning and I would stayawake and then I'd try to sleep

(36:15):
mid afternoon.
We're fighting againsteverything our body is telling
us to do because of ourenvironmental factors and things
that are saying, hey, look,it's daytime, you need to be up,
you need to be moving around.
And, conversely, you know we'regrabbing our equipment and
we're walking out into the darkputting stuff in the car, where
all of our external environmentfactors are saying, hey, now's
the time for us to wind down andfor us to start looking at

(36:36):
sleep.
And so then there's two partsthat I'll say to the challenges
that can come here.
One, the health side of things.
So the impact of, I guess, thatcircadian misalignment is
resulting in poor sleep, fullstop.
Poor sleep then results in allof the repair work that our body
would be doing physically,mentally, is not getting a

(36:56):
chance to do the work that itneeds to do.
So we know that it's going tohave an impact there.
The second part that I would sayis the social factors.
That is often not consideredhere as well.
We know that humans are a packanimal.
We need to be around people, weneed to be aligned, we need to
be belonging in a tribe, and sowhat can often happen with shift
workers is we default to justhanging out with shift workers.

(37:17):
That's not necessarily a badthing all of the time, except
for the fact that it helpsperpetuate the normalization of
some of the challenges.
So if I'm tired and I'm nowcoming to you, roger, and going,
man, I'm wrecked.
Like that night shift justrocked me and you're going, come
on, man, like you know, rockedall of us.
Just rocked me.
And you're going come on, man,like you know, rocked all of us.
We're all tired.

(37:38):
We've conditioned ourselves inthese environments, this space
of shared suffering, and I'm notgoing to complain because the
person next to me is in the sameshit that I am.
So there's no point in it,there's no value.
So again, we've normalized itto say sometimes my roster's all
over the place, sometimes Isleep, sometimes I don't.
The impact of that results in usdisconnecting, either by choice
or purely by environmentalfactors, that we're no longer

(37:59):
around other people becausewe're just not available.
Matt's on night shifts.
I'm not going to botherinviting him to the group dinner
.
You know we disconnect often.
One of the questions that Ioften ask people is you know, do
you still have civilian friends?
And sometimes people laugh atme and there's many rooms where
people are like you know, it wasone or two hands that might go
up to go.
Yeah, I still got some friendsoutside of this environment.
There's a protective measurethat goes with that, purely

(38:22):
because it allows us to have, Iguess, an alternate perspective
of what is normal.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Reality.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Exactly, and so it helps us challenge these things
to go.
I recognize that while I'mtrying to force myself to be
awake when I should be sleeping,it's going to have an impact.
So what am I going to do aboutit?
What can I do about it?
What are my options?
Is there a way?
Because we need people to dothis.
I'm not saying that we justneed to.
Unfortunately, for you know,there's probably lots of
contributing factors, but youknow, crooks often commit crime

(38:49):
at nighttime.
You know, I'm sure that ambosare probably busier at night
than they are in day.
Like I'm making someassumptions here, but you know,
when we think about theseprofessions, we need to be on.
We know that the impact oftrying to force our bodies to
stop doing what it's designed todo to then do something else
that's probably where yourenergy drinks and your coffee
and all those things come intoplay Alcohol, then we're trying

(39:12):
to chase through the day to tryto reduce down some of these
things.
Yeah, look, it's having animpact from both, like I said,
the physical side of things orthe health side of things, but
then certainly the socialimpacts as well, which are
naturally going to have animpact on us as humans trying to
navigate this world experience.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, and isolation is a massive contributor to poor
mental health as well.
And even just being at work onan afternoon shift when you know
that your wife and kids havegone to a family barbecue and
you can't join them, or thingslike that that all impacts all
the time on people.
If you're continually havingthat happen, you could say but

(39:48):
that's what you signed up forand that is one of the things.
But we still need to be fairaround that.
We know that we're going to bemissing family functions.
We know that we're going tohave to work Christmas Day and
Easter Good Friday and we'regoing to miss out on those
things.
We have to come to terms withthose sort of things.
But we need to be vigilantaround that and make sure.

(40:08):
I find it interesting with whatyou said about we do tend to
gravitate towards our like typeoutside of work as well as
inside, because they'reavailable.
They're not available all thetime, which can leave us very
isolated.
I think Dr Kilmartin's book wasexcellent around that Emotional
Survival for Law Enforcement orsomething like that.

(40:30):
Law Enforcement, yeah,fantastic book.
If you ever look for it onAmazon, it's about 150 bucks now
and it's only about that thick,but the thing is, the book is
so good because I think what itdid was it flagged that we think
that 99% of society areabsolutely screwed in the head.
Right, because we're dealingwith 1% of society or even less,

(40:52):
way less than 1%, but we thinkthat that's the 99%, but 99% of
that 1% are absolutely screwedin the head.
And it's a really interestingperspective as well when we look
at it and we also become verynegative.
I know he spoke, I saw him speaklive.
He said when I say to you,Scout Leader, what's the first

(41:13):
thing you think of?
And you'll know, and I willknow, the answer to that.
And that shows you how cynicalwe become in life, doesn't it?
Which is where we need all ofthese interactions outside of
our profession to actually helpus to readjust to.
It's not all like that, right,it's just not all like that.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
You're touching a couple of key points around,
like we know that our brains arelearning machines.
Yeah, so they're our bestfriend, but they can also be our
worst enemy, because it'sconstantly looking for
efficiencies and looking forpathways that make sense.
So, the more we expose it to acertain environment and it
validates an experience, we justkeep thinking the same thing,
because, to your point, you know, you ask us maybe, like, what

(41:53):
does the term Scout Leader mean?
But you then go.
Maybe if you went to ateacher's staff room and you
said, hey, when you think ScoutLeader, what do you think?
Good chance, they'll have avastly different perspective,
because that's the environmentthat they've been exposed to.
So this is where it's soimportant for us to start
thinking about who are thepeople that we have in our life
that are validating our worldperspectives, and are they then

(42:16):
a true reflection of what ourworld looks like?
And it doesn't mean that wehave to have these like
overarching high-level beliefsin political systems and things.
I'm talking about just yourday-to-day, you know.
Is my world a safe one to walkthrough and to walk in?
We've got lots of reasons tothink that it's not.
We also have to then balancethose so that we've got an
evidence base to say, well, yeah, maybe at times I'm called, I'm

(42:36):
the reason why people mightneed me in their moments, but it
doesn't mean that that's likethat for everybody.
So we do have to challenge someof these perspectives so that
we don't just conditionourselves to think certain
things for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, Neuroplasticity is an amazing thing, isn't it?
It is, Our brain will adapt towhat we're looking for and we
are actually educating our brainall the time, which is why I'm
so massive on a gratitudepractice for people, because we
tend to start looking for thegood instead of getting sick.
This is why I discourage peoplefrom hanging out in these

(43:10):
crisis forums, because you'rejust getting confirmation bias
in relation to yourself all thetime.
Absolutely Sleep.
Whenever I went and saw mypsychologist or psychiatrist, I
was always said oh, how's yoursleep, Rog?
You know, how's your going withyour sleep?
It's always the first questionor one of the first questions.
So how does it actuallycontribute to our health

(43:30):
challenges when it comes tothings like anxiety, depression
and PTSD?

Speaker 1 (43:34):
So I think there's probably two parts to this and
probably similar.
I won't dwell on this too muchbecause we probably touched on
it already a bit in the questionbefore.
I think I probably sort ofoverreached on that question,
but what we do know is that thissleep, as I was talking about
before, we know that that's likea restorative practice for not
only our bodies but it's arestorative practice for our
minds.
It gives us, I guess, thatopportunity to process the

(43:55):
events that maybe we've beenexposed to through the day.
It helps us to better regulateour emotions.
It readies us, I guess, givesus that energy we might need to
then deal with the challengesthe following day as well.
It helps with cognitive skills,attention, learning, memory,
like all of these things that alack of sleep or difficulty
sleep is going to besignificantly impacted in a big
way.
So when we start thinking aboutbeing in those environments

(44:18):
chronically or for long-termchallenges, that's where we can
start noticing that we do thisfor a period of time.
We know that we're morevulnerable to, say, those
diagnosable conditions or thoselike disorders that we spoke
about you know the anxietydisorders, the depressive
disorders, you know terms likePTSD then start to come up, and
we also know that we're onlytalking about like just the work

(44:41):
contributing factors.
People have lives outside ofwork, so they can also have
other contributing challenges aswell.
So if we then take people andput them into these environments
that might already be morevulnerable to say some of those
longer term illnesses orinjuries, we then start
disorders, probably a word.
We then start overlaying thatwith lack of sleep on top
because of the work role.

(45:02):
We might be having a great timeat work, we might be new in our
career, we're still, you know,live in the honeymoon stage, if
you like, or maybe we'relong-term in our career and
still love the job, becausethere's lots of people out there
like that as well that havebeen in for a while and still
love it.
But the lack of sleep or thedifficulties and disruption to
our sleep absolutely leaves usexposed to more difficulties.

(45:23):
Dan mentions in his sleepoptimization course that there
is studies that link sleepdeprivation to increased use of
force amongst law enforcementand military professions.
So I think when we startthinking about the impact on our
cognitive processing, ouremotional regulation, the
behaviors that we would normallybe able to help us through our

(45:44):
day work, through some of thesechallenges.
If lack of sleep leaves usexposed, it challenges at a core
, our own sense of self-efficacy.
Am I actually capable ofdealing with stress and these
challenges in my day-to-day?
And if I'm starting to stack upevidence that I can't because
I'm now making mistakes, I'musing poor judgment or even
going as far as making poordecisions that might impact my

(46:06):
career in a negative way from aninvestigative purpose, that's
challenging me at my core andpotentially my identity.
That's a bigger conversation aswell, but this absolutely
contributes to mental healthconditions, how I view myself,
how I view my environment.
So, coming back to sleep, it'snot to say that it's the be all
and end all, but it's such asignificant contributing factor

(46:28):
that if we can't get our sleepunder control and really be
focusing on it, we just leaveourselves more vulnerable to
either worsening of conditionsor development of long-term
conditions down the path.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, agreed.
And management, it's no goodmanagement lining everybody up
in a parade and saying to themwe have to reduce these
complaints, we have to reduceall these complaints of
assaulting and everything else,and then the next time you walk
into the muster room you look atthe roster and your roster is
absolutely all over the placewith absolutely no logic to it
at all.
Disconnect.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
There's a problem here.
Isn't there.
There's disconnect, it's atotal disconnect.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, what about if we looked at the rostering and
we went with forward rotationrostering and rostering that was
looked along the lines of and Isay this all the time on the
podcast that if I had my way,I'd be stripping down all 24,
seven environments andrebuilding them as shift working
environments, building in naps,building in forward rotation
rosters, fatigue management, etcetera, et cetera.

(47:24):
Watch what happens to accidentsin the workplace.
Watch what happens tocomplaints that happen in the
workplace and mistakes made at amedical level as well.
Some of the biggest disastersin the world have been
contributed to night shift.
Chernobyl was a night shiftdisaster.
The Exxon Valdez was a nightshift disaster as well.
A lot of those things whenpeople can't think and function

(47:47):
properly.
So I think this is really good.
What practical strategies arethere, then, that we can help to
mitigate the impact of shiftwork on our own mental wellbeing
?

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, there's going to be lots of people out there
that have far more credibilityin the medical space that can
put substance to this.
And I know that you speak aboutthis.
This is your wheelhouse so thestuff that comes up for me we've
been banging on about this isnow prioritizing sleep.
We have to just look at oursleep hygiene practice and
routines that we've got in placeand, if you want a really
obvious, almost exaggeratedexample, we look at how we get

(48:18):
babies to go to sleep.
We're not letting babies justpick and choose what time they
go to bed.
We're not letting them scrollon Facebook until like two in
the morning or watch Netflixthat one last episode.
We're putting strategies inplace.
Shift workers don't necessarilyget the luxury of knowing that
at six o'clock every nightthey're going to get wrapped up,

(48:39):
swaddled, sung a lullaby, reada book and put to sleep.
But what are the things thatwe're doing in those couple of
hours in the lead up to us?
Trying to get to sleep is goingto be critical in the quality
and quantity of sleep that wehave, and if listeners want more
information on that, thenyou're in the right spot because
, like Rogerger and healthyshift have so much information
around this and around realhealthy strategies and things we
can put in place.
You know, avoiding caffeine,heavy meals, alcohol, all of

(49:01):
those stuff that roger will beable to talk to.
One of the other things thatI'll say is, like you know,
sleep debt's a thing as well isthat we have to also be looking
at if we are having poor night'ssleep, not just normalizing
that experience, but just like.
That's an opportunity now forus to really double down on what
are the contributing factors toget dialed in, because the
longer that goes, the moresignificant the impact To

(49:21):
navigate shift work as well andmental health and wellbeing is
really around focusing on thatsocial piece that we spoke about
before, because when wecondition ourselves to just the
normalcy of shift work and thechallenges that come with maybe
not being available on weekendsand having friends, that can be
really hard, especially whenlife comes up.
Maybe we've got children, we'vegot other competing needs, some

(49:44):
of us might even work multiplejobs, prioritizing connection
with other people, even ifthat's on the drive home.
You're just calling mom andhaving a check-in, calling your
mates and just talking aboutjust stuff, like whatever that
may be.
It's an opportunity for us tostart down-regulating our
nervous systems, thatphysiological response.
Ideally, we will have people inour life that might be our

(50:08):
important three to fives that wecan actually talk about to say,
hey, roger, I just had a reallydifficult shift, or I've got
this really difficult thinggoing on at home.
Roger, I just had a reallydifficult shift, or I've got
this really difficult thinggoing on at home.
I just needed someone to hearme out and just to say we know
disclosure is such a healthypart of us as humans just having
an ability to sit around andtalk.
People have been sitting aroundcampfires sharing stories for

(50:30):
thousands of years, but we'velost the ability to do that.
We've lost, maybe, the trust inwho we can share those stories
with and we've lost the abilityto do that.
We've lost, maybe, the trust inwho we wellbeing practices have
you got in place?
Gratitude is a really greatplace.
Humans are designed for anegative bias.

(51:03):
Gratitude breaks that.
Are we meditating?
And if you're not sure aboutmeditation I know that Roger
probably spoken about this.
Dan Pronk speaks aboutmeditation as well Insight timer
download the app.
There's heaps of free ones.
10 minute, just give yourself abreak, give your brain a break.
Wellbeing practices journalinggoes back to that disclosure
piece.
If you've got stories to tellbut you don't have anyone around

(51:24):
you yet that you trust to tellthem, to tell them to yourself,
write them down, burn the paperif you need to afterwards.
But creating space to processthat experience and to write it
out is going to absolutely havean impact in your overall
well-being as well.
So it's probably just three keythings that I would suggest
would be for people toprioritize and you should start
noticing some improvements or,at the very least, for those

(51:46):
that are going great, this willhelp sustain that.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
And you know what's even better about what you just
said about all of thosepractices?
They're all free.
They're free, every single oneof them is free Yep of those
practices.
They're all free.
Every single one of them isfree Stopping and thinking,
mindful practice free Breathwork, free Meditation, free
Insight timer.
Listen to them, free.

(52:12):
People are running aroundspending money on supplements
and trying to fix this, andalcohol and ciggies and drugs
and everything else.
These are all free strategiesand I know I talk about this all
the time For some reason and Idon't understand why, but the
public, or clients or peoplethat follow me, are all looking
for this magic pill that theycan order online and when I talk
to them about gratitude andthey think, oh, that's stupid,

(52:34):
that won't work.
Once you understand the sciencebehind neuroplasticity and
gratitude, all the successfulpeople in the world meditators,
gratitude, breath work all taketime for their own self-care as
well.
Really, really important.
So hang off that one, peeps,because this is really important
.
Matt, I wanted to ask you aboutthis one as well.

(52:55):
How can we differentiatebetween someone just having a
rough week Because we all havethem and we do A rough week
versus someone that's really,really struggling now with their
mental health?

Speaker 1 (53:04):
That conversation comes up a lot, and so there's a
couple of key things.
I'm conscious of how much timewe have left as well, roger, so
I'm mindful of that.
I don't want to drag this onfor your listeners, but a couple
of key things that I would sayto this.
Duration would be aconsideration.
So if someone who's having abad day or bad week, they might
be having like those feelings inthose moments, but once that
situation resolves itself, you'dlike to think that they're
coming back to the usual senseof self, whereas we start

(53:27):
thinking about maybe those thatmight longer term depression
sometimes there might notnecessarily be a time end for
that and it might go.
Certainly if it's going longerthan two weeks.
You know doctors would startsaying, hey, we'd probably need
to start looking at someinterventions here and some
support strategies.
But if we're talking aboutlonger term stuff duration wise
then these are the red flagsthat might be going up.

(53:47):
Another thing I'd say to thatis intensity, those that I guess
might just be having adifficult time.
You'll like to expect to see itas almost situational,
circumstantial.
I'm feeling this way becausethis thing just happened.
It makes sense, if you've justhad a significant relationship
breakdown, for you to have somequite intense emotional
responses to that.
That doesn't necessarily meanyou're depressed.

(54:07):
Maybe you've had a family petthat has died or be put down.
I would expect people to beexperiencing sadness and grief.
I wouldn't be, like you know,chucking labels of depression on
that.
So, again, situational,circumstantial for those, then,
the intensity we're now startingto see over longer periods of
time it's starting to impairtheir functioning.
So we're starting to see longerterm, you know, inability to do

(54:30):
the things that would normallybe able to do, decreased work
performance, maybe not showingup at work at all, impact on
sleep, focus, appetite, allthese things longer term.
That's where we start to go.
You know what?
I'm going to track this and seeif this doesn't resolve itself.
I'm going to need to put somestrategies in place.
Yeah, I think there's probablya couple of other things just
around triggers or reasons.

(54:50):
Sometimes we can explain why wemight feel this way.
Generally speaking, those thatare having just a difficult time
can attach it to a certain.
It's stressful at work.
Right now I've just been.
Maybe there's been a redundancyin the family that's put
financial pressure, or there'sdifficulties in the marriage.
We can name it.
We can say, hey, this is a.
I'm sure that once this thingresolves itself, I'll be good

(55:11):
For those of us that might justbe going.
I don't actually know why Ifeel like this, because
everything feels like it's linedup and the planets have aligned
.
I'm having a.
You know, life looks great.
Those can sometimes be the moreobvious signs to go.
You know what, maybe I'm notjust having a difficult time.
Maybe I need to engage someexternal supports to help me.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I love that.
So if you could attach it to aparticular incident, like a
relationship breakup or oryou've had a car accident or
you've clashed with something atwork or you got an incident, if
you can attach it to somethinglike that, then it's probably
temporary, but if it seems tohave come from nowhere and it's
going long-term, then that'ssomething that needs to be

(55:48):
investigated further.
That's great advice.
I really really like thatbecause that does absolutely
make sense.
Now our families, wives, kidsthey're all sitting at home here
and they're watching us becausefor some reason and I know
you'll relate to this we do tendto take it out on the people
that are closest to it becausewe think we can get away with it

(56:09):
.
Right, how can our partnersactually approach that
conversation?
Now I know when I was veryheightened I can talk about it
Melissa was walking around oneggshells and wasn't sure she
had to pick her moments andthings like that.
So how can our partner what's areally good opening
conversation to have withsomeone to address this?
Timing is important.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
I think, to say the least, maybe sitting down to the
table over dinner and the kidsare.
The kids are all there and it'sall a bit chaotic, and you know
you've got the project on theTV probably not the best time to
go.
Hey, rog, you know you're notoperating at your best right now
, like what's going on, sotiming is really important.
I think I always like to say topeople, like, if you're coming
into these conversations withgenuine love and care, you're to

(56:51):
actually cause any harm here.
So I appreciate that peoplewant to find the right words.
Look, we're not going to givescripts out necessarily.
You want to make it genuine,you want to make it authentic.
One of the key things here,though, is really around to what
we've been saying as well isnaming the things that we've
noticed.
We don't want to necessarily,like, put the person on the back
foot and have them defensive,which means that if I'm now

(57:12):
having a chat to you, rog,because we're best mates or you
know I see you all the time, orwe're brothers and I'm catching
up with you regularly, it's likethis is what I've noticed and
I'm worried about you.
Yeah, I think is the approach.
Rather than going, you knowlike You're being a dick.
You're just being a dick.
You're such an arsehole all thetime, yeah, and You're like.

(57:37):
Now.
I feel like I have to defendmyself and go like, well, how
about you're being a dick Maybeif you weren't such like and you
can see where this spirals, asopposed to going, hey, like you
know, you just don't see himyourself.
Like I've noticed that you'renot sleeping.
I've heard you get up throughthe night.
I've seen that you're withdrawnwhen you've come home.
It sounds like.
You know you've told a normalresponse for people to be trying
to work through that, you know.
Do you want to like let me in,tell me what's going on?

(57:58):
I'm here to listen.
I think the key things here are,like really trying to park any
judgment.
You know it'll be fine, you'llbe okay, like this is just a
period of time.
It's like no, it's real forthem right now, and so that's
important for us just to notimpose our own judgments.
We are wanting to do thatbecause we love them and we care
for them.
We're trying to reassure them,but it's about going yeah, you
know what that sounds awful, Iget that and I'm here.

(58:19):
I want this to be a place whereyou can come and disclose.
As we said, share the things,share those challenges.
With that comes acceptance ofsilence, asking questions, open
questions and then just leavingit.
That's where it gets reallyweird and uncomfortable for lots
of people because they're notnecessarily comfortable in that
space.
But asking the question what'sgoing on for you, and just
sitting in silence, because wemight not know necessarily how

(58:43):
long it takes for them toformulate what's going on, and
you might hear this I don't knowto start with, if you sit and
sit and longer.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
It's natural for people to want to fill the void,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
It's so true because we all feel that awkwardness and
that takes practice.
So, rather than like trying tofill it with, oh, I think it's
this, I think it's that, it'slike, no, well, you know I'm
here and I'm listening, so giveit some thought, take a minute,
give it some thought and sharewith me what you think might be
going on.
That's how we might frame it upand then, at the back end of
that, also recognizing thatwe're the loved one, we're the

(59:14):
partner, we're not the fixer,we're not the person who's going
to go right.
Okay, well, I'm going to sendan email that you can then send.
I'll draft this, I'll do this,I'll call the bank.
All right, how about we slowall that down?
And just more often than not,people know what they need to do
to resolve these things.
Maybe they're feeling a bitoverwhelmed.
They don't necessarily knowwhich step to take.
First, the power of hearingourselves say things out loud

(59:38):
most of my job, really whenpeople go oh, thank you so much.
You know, you've saved mymarriage, you've?
I want to stay in the job now,and all this.
I'm like, but I didn't doanything.
All I did was told you what youtell me, and I just told it in
a different way.
I haven't given you any advice,I haven't structured your
response.
It's just I'm in this with youand now there's role clarity
around what role I'm playing.

(59:59):
So if we can, as a friend, as apartner, sitting with our
friend or partner to say I'm nothere to fix this, knowing that
in our head, stop speaking, justlet them talk out loud, ask
questions, and that's going tobe the best approach.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I love that I'm in this with you.
I think that's just such apowerful line that when you're
sitting there talking to someoneand you're talking to them and
they're starting to break down alittle bit, just by saying to
them I'm in this with youBecause that statement makes so
many statements, doesn't it?
In itself, it shows compassion.
It shows, hey, I'm right herewith you working through this.

(01:00:35):
It's not an opposition.
I'm not telling you what youshould do or how.
I'm in here with you.
All you've got to do is guideme.
What do you want me to do?
And I can help you with thisand go through that.
That sort of leads me on intothe next question.
But I think that statementactually answers the next
question, because I was going toask what advice do you have for

(01:00:57):
partners of frontline workerswho are supporting someone?
Because I've got a lot of wives, husbands, that have got
partners in frontline health andemergency services military
that listen to this podcast aswell.
They're trying to findstrategies to help their
partners.
So what is there that they cando?
And I think that line is theanswer, isn't it?
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I'm in this with you and I think, even if, as a
partner, we may have done allthe research in the world, we
know that a healthy shift exists.
We know there's podcastsavailable, we know there's
websites, we know there's thesereally great books by Banksy,
troy Knight, dan Prong all thesepeople we know they exist.
Don't lead with that.
It's like, hey, this looks likeabout how we're going to
navigate these challengestogether.

(01:01:34):
It's like, hey, did you know?
I was looking on the internetlast night and I saw this, this
looks interesting.
Or I heard this podcast.
I was reading this book theother night and I heard this
thing you might like to readthis book too.
Maybe you'll get value from it.
These are the ways in which wecan then provide that ongoing
support.
It's like I was listening tothis.
Really good, they were talkingabout sleep.
Did you know that circadianmisalignment has such an impact

(01:01:56):
on our own mental health andwellbeing?
And people might go what thehell are you talking about?
It's like, well, look, I'm nodoctor.
Listen to the podcast that Rogtalks about it.
You know what I mean.
Like.
So this is how we can thenprovide that support.
Is I'm in this?
I'm like a foot soldier in yoursupport army, that I'm going to
go off and I'm going to go findsome stuff and we're going to
just work together.
We're going to put thischallenge on the table in front

(01:02:17):
of both of us and we're going togo.
Well, this is what I've learned.
What do you think might beuseful?
What do you connect with?
And that changes all of thetime throughout life.
So, yeah, I think there'sprobably a few things in there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Absolutely brilliant.
Yeah, there's an informationnight on.
I'll come with you to it.
How about we go to this on thatnight?
Do you know what I mean?
Like you're showing support,you're not opposing, because I
think when it's in the heat ofthe battle and it's when I say
the heat of the battle, whenit's really heightened it can be
real like opposite pole magnetspushing against each other all
the time.
I think if you flip your magnetaround and you draw yourself in

(01:02:51):
and say, hey, I'm in this withyou, it's such a powerful
comment, I'm going to stick withit.
I'm going to live with that.
I love that one.
Now, I do want to talk aboutthis topic.
It's taken us a while to getthere, but I want people to
earmark this and get to this,because this is a really
important conversation.
I heard this the other day.
I actually called you and saidhey, we need to talk about this
because it's important.
I think one of the biggestproblems that we have that a lot

(01:03:19):
of people don't realize is theythink that with suicide or
people that want to completesuicide, that it's because of
the pain themselves and theyjust want to end their own life.
It's more than that, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Yeah, it is so for me .
I'll talk to my own experienceand then those that have also
shared with me.
So I've heard a few times inthe community where the people
can sometimes feel like it mightbe a person just trying to find
a way out of their own, to yourpoint.
Sometimes people have even goneso far as to say it's a
cowardly move.
How could they do that topeople around them and frame it
that way?
And look, I understand that weare trying to get to the

(01:03:45):
understanding of maybe what thatperson's decision-making
process was.
So I think that sense offeeling as though we're a burden
is absolutely a contributingfactor to, more often than not,
to decisions around suicide.
And this is just in myexperience.
I can't necessarily back thisup with any research other than
I've spoken to people who haveconsidered suicide or maybe
they've had behaviors towardssuicide and my own experience.

(01:04:07):
The reason why I was makingdecisions you know, when I was
unwell around consideringsuicide as an option was because
I truly believed that thosearound me would be better off
without me.
It wasn't so much that I wasgoing.
I can't do this anymore.
I've lost energy.
I'm going to give theseproblems to someone else.
It was.
I'm feeling as though I am aburden to those around me and

(01:04:28):
this might be a useful way forme to alleviate the burden on
other people.
Now, I appreciate that's notgoing to be in every situation,
but that is often a contributingconsideration and I know that
some of the surveys, researchthat RUOK came up with a couple
of years ago, was very mucharound this, almost like a
trifecta of vulnerability orconcern or risk to suicide

(01:04:48):
whatever word is mostappropriate for you and the
contributing factors, the threecontributing factors where the
person felt as if they were aburden to those around them.
They were isolated.
Now that doesn't meannecessarily geographically.
That might mean there's a senseof I'm not connected, I don't
belong anywhere.
So we might have a robustsocial environment around us but
might not necessarily feelconnected to it and then having

(01:05:10):
the means to actually take theirlife in whichever way they'd
planned that out.
But that key point around thatfeeling as though we're a burden
.
So I find now and I know thatwe've had these conversations
previously, roger is that I knownow that when I'm speaking to
people who have had thoughts inthe past or maybe you're
thinking about suicide now as anoption I'm very intentional
around almost trying to use thatword.

(01:05:30):
This is not burdensome.
You are not burdensome.
I want you to speak to me.
I'm not taking responsibilityfor your problems, your
challenges.
What I'm doing is you're not inthis on your own.
I'm going to sit here with youin this and together we are
going to find out ways that isgoing to help us navigate
through this challenge thatwe're facing together.

(01:05:51):
So it's not a burden, because weknow that we've all been
impacted in a big way by suicideand I think every one of the
listeners would be able to drawon their own personal experience
of having lost someone orcoming close to losing someone,
or maybe had their ownexperiences themselves.
I'm sure that for most of us,we would not ever consider that
a burden to be available forsomeone else in their moments of

(01:06:13):
most significant and challengeor distress.
So we need to be very carefularound how much we might be
perpetuating social stigmasaround.
You know to take to considerthis is a cowardly move, because
I know for me like that'sprobably the last thing I needed
to hear or to consider when Iwas already thinking I was a
burden to those around me, tohave people then think that I'm
not capable and I am just acoward for considering getting

(01:06:36):
out of this environment.
We have to just be conscious ofthe words that we're using
there and opening ourselves upto different perspectives.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
That's all I would urge listeners to do yeah and I
think what you've said about thetrifecta of risk goes back to
that statement.
Again, I'm in here with youtakes the isolation away so they
don't feel isolated, they feellike they've got someone there.
It also gives you a really goodopportunity to assess if
they've got the means themselvesand how they're actually
thinking.
And also, they're not a burdenbecause you're sitting there

(01:07:03):
with them.
So they know they're not aburden because you're right
there and you've told them.
So, yeah, the statement againcomes back to that.
Let's start to wrap it up.
So for any first responders orfrontline workers that are
listening, who might be actuallystruggling and have listened
into this because Matt Newlandsis on the Healthy Shift podcast
what message would you have forthem if they're struggling at
the moment?

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Yeah, look, I think there's probably three key
things that I'd ask them toconsider, and these are the
three sort of significantcontributing factors to the post
traumatic growth roadmap.
We talk about education,regulation and disclosure.
So what I would say to that, ifyou're feeling as though you're
struggling, trust that gutfeeling Like you're an expert in
your life as well, and, yep, weappreciate that sometimes
people might pick up on it first, but if you're having these

(01:07:43):
thoughts, having these you know,I'm not so certain reach out
and learn more stuff, whetherthat's like listening to
podcasts, watch YouTube, youknow, read the books.
If you're not sure where tostart, what I would urge people
to do is Aussie Frontlineprovide free, sponsored
counselling sessions that areavailable through Frontline
Mental Health.
What I have found is that forsome first responders, they are

(01:08:04):
literally using a session tolearn more, and so we will just
spend an hour together justtalking about ways of which, you
know, well-being practices canbe implemented, maybe things
that they're struggling with,and that might be the only touch
point that we have.
Others, you know, might go onto have more and more sessions,
but seeking that education pieceis such an important part, and

(01:08:26):
I would say that if they'relistening to this podcast and
they're feeling that way,there's a good chance they're
already well down that path ofseeking out some information
already.
So, like, pat yourself on theback and just continue that
forward momentum.
The other piece aroundregulation is what we're talking
about there.
What are the wellbeingpractices we're utilizing to
help regulate our emotionalresponses to the environments

(01:08:47):
that we're in and thecircumstances we're subjected to
?
So again, if you need somethings, stuff like gratitude is
really important.
You know, even just consideringthat question as you're driving
to work, what am I grateful fortoday?
And don't just name it as I'mgrateful for my coffee.
Give me a reason like saybecause and fill that in I'm
grateful for a podcast becauseit gives me an opportunity to

(01:09:08):
learn more about other people'sshift work experience.
You know we want to put areason for it at the other end.
So gratitude is an importantone.
Breathing box breathing I knowthat people speak about that a
lot.
In for four, hold for four, outfor four, these sort of things.
Four, seven, eights.
In for four, hold for seven,out for eights.
There's lots of differenttechniques that are available

(01:09:28):
for people.
Use those in those moments ofheightened distress if you're
struggling, but, yeah, we wantto be really talking about
well-being practices that canhelp us regulate some of these
responses sleep hygiene wouldalso fall into that.
And disclosure find people youcan talk to and if you're not
sure, then again aussiefrontline contacting frontline
mental health, directlycontacting a healthy shift.

(01:09:49):
Send us messages on Instagram.
Whatever you need to do, sendus emails, speak to people who
are in positions that we aremore than happy to listen.
You're not alone.
You're not in this on your own.
So, yeah, that would be threekey things that I'd really
encourage people to do Education, wellbeing practices and
sharing story.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Yeah, just reach out to people that have been there
that can guide you and help youand make you not feel alone.
I think the biggest positivethat I've got is I'd seen other
people come through it and comeout of it, and it gave me the
hope that, yeah, I can do thisas well, and albeit that my own
depression distracted me tothrow myself into the business I
know my psychologist andpsychiatrist as well said to me

(01:10:29):
that the best thing that you canpossibly do is do what you're
doing at the moment as a way outof what you're doing.
Fantastic.
Now, matt, you've been amazing,and I do highly encourage
people to seek out the AussieFrontline.
I've got about five of theirt-shirts, so I've certainly
supported half of one session atleast, because for every
t-shirt or every piece of merchthat they sell, they actually

(01:10:52):
donate $10 towards sessions withMatt or a counsellor as well.
I think that's really importantthat people understand that,
and also that people understandtoo, matt, that if someone from
Victoria Police was to approachand was to speak to you, it's
absolutely in confidence andaway from the organisation,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
Absolutely so.
Both Aussie Frontline andFrontline Mental Health.
They are two separate entities,are separate from organisations
.
So we might have likecollaborative connections and
relationships with the firstresponder agencies that support
the work that we're doing, butwe're not reporting back to
anybody and in fact even theinformation that comes from
Aussie Frontline to us.
It's one way it is.

(01:11:33):
If you were to contact AussieFrontline and said I'd really
appreciate speaking to someone.
We are just giving your contactdetails and it stops there.
So as much as you know, marleyand Dan and I we're all very
close friends.
We don't sit around and talkabout you know the challenges
absolutely in confidence and Iwould lose any of my
professional registration if Iwas to breach that
confidentiality as well.
So the legal component requiresthat.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
If something that you've said today resonates or
people really want to reach outto you as well.
Where can people find out moreabout Frontline Mental Health
and the work that you'reactually doing, mate?

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Yeah, so we've got a website, frontlinemhcomau.
You've got to find out a bitabout the education, the
programs that we provide toorganizations around the country
.
They're not exclusive tomilitary and first responder
communities.
So if you're from the corporatesector local government,
councils, corrections, likewhichever category you fit
yourself into please reach outto us.
If you like the way that wetalk, the way that we operate,

(01:12:26):
then please let us know.
Linkedin we're quite active onthere.
We do our best to try to bringvalue to our LinkedIn following
and community as well.
We talk about different thingseach month and try to bring some
videos and content.
And then my personal Insta page, maddienewlands.
You'll be able to find me there.
Feel free to send me a privatemessage.
And then I would encouragepeople to check out Aussie
Frontline as well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
The whole lot.
It's all linked in theretogether and I will put the
links to that into the shownotes for anybody that goes into
the show notes.
The links to Matt, frontlineHealth, the LinkedIn, will all
be in the show notes, matt, Ihave to have one closer.
I've got one question that Ialways ask my guests and,
because you've given up yourtime, I haven't told you.
But I've recently won a billiondollars and I'm in a position

(01:13:08):
where I can buy you a house orbuild it anywhere that you want
in the world.
Right, right, whereabouts am Igoing to build you a house Now?
You can go by yourself and havesome quiet, mad time, or you
can take the missus and kids ordo whatever you want to do, but
where would you like me to buyor build it for you?

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Sure, I think the first thing that comes to mind.
I intentionally didn't likeprepare for this question.
We generally, as a family, welike to spend time in Bali, we
like to try to find the quiettimes in Bali, and I think,
really, the connection there,though, is just a beach.
I just need somewhere close tothe ocean, somewhere that's warm
and doesn't really have toomany people around me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
So, yeah, Beautiful and it's cheap.
I've got most of my billiondollars left.
That's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
But we'll build something special.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
No doubt you'll want a plunge pool and the spa and
sauna, and you're going to haveto have an infrared sauna and
all the good gear that goes withthat.
Matt, I'm very, very humbledthat you've come on the podcast
and I'm very grateful for thework that you are doing for our
frontline health and firstresponders, military, everybody.
It's a real credit to you thatyou've recovered from what
you've recovered from yourself,and I'm well aware of that
because I heard you speak at theevent and that's what really
resonated with me as well.
We've been basically alongpretty much the same journey.

(01:14:17):
Well done on doing what you'redoing.
It gives you a new zest to life, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
It's fantastic, it certainly does I think there's
so much to be said about peoplehaving a meaning or purpose in
their life, and I know that youknow that's something that you
would probably align with aswell, and a lot of our first
responder community.
It's often the driving forcefor why it is that we do what we
do.
So yeah, I mean I reallyappreciate the invitation to be
involved.
I hope people have got valueout of the last hour or so of
our conversations and if peoplehave questions then I'd

(01:14:42):
certainly welcome them to flickthem through to me and always
happy to chat.
So really appreciate it, roger,and thanks for all the stuff
that you're doing as well.
It's hugely impactful.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
And there you have it .
That's Matt Newlands.
That's a really, reallyimportant conversation, because
it's just not enough to justcheck in with people and say are
you okay?
It's a close question.
Someone says, yeah, I'm fine,or not?
I think we need to have theseconversations and understand how
to, and also the impacts andwhat these type of things can
have on us, and how we need tochoose our words quite carefully

(01:15:11):
because of how a person mayvery well be feeling.
If you got any value out of thepodcast, please reach out to
either Matt or myself.
We will steer you in absolutelythe right direction.
There's no problems.
And also, don't forget, pleaseshare this podcast with your
colleagues so that they canlearn more evidence-based

(01:15:32):
strategies around shift work andcoping with mental health, et
cetera, et cetera.
I will catch you on the nextone.
Thank you for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe so you get
notified whenever a new episodeis released.
It would also be ever sohelpful if you could leave a
rating and review on the appyou're currently listening on.

(01:15:54):
If you want to know more aboutme or work with me, you can go
to ahealthyshiftcom.
I'll catch you on the next one.

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[249] - Matt Newlands - Checking in on your mates, but what are we looking for?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}[249] - Matt Newlands - Checking in on your mates, but what are we looking for?