May 15, 2025 ⢠40 mins
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When was the last time you experienced real darknessâso dark you couldnât see your hand in front of your face?
According to mathematician and sleep expert Dr. Olivia Walch, our modern âlight dietâ may be silently sabotaging our sleep.
In this eye-opening episode, Dr. Walch breaks down the surprising science behind circadian rhythms and why obsessing over â8 hours a nightâ misses the point. Instead, she emphasizes the importance of sleep timing, consistency, and how exposure to artificial light is throwing our internal clocks into chaos.
Youâll learn:
- Why irregular sleep patterns are like an arrhythmic heartbeat
- How just one week of camping without artificial light resets your sleep cycle
- Why shift workers are facing a public health crisis â and what can help
- How light exposure during the day (and darkness at night) can dramatically improve your sleep
âWe need to think about rhythm and sleep,â says Dr. Walch. âLight is the most powerful cue we have.â
Whether you're a shift worker, a night owl, or just tired of being tired, this conversation will give you practical strategies to align your sleep with your bodyâs natural rhythm.
Try This Tonight:
Go into your bedroom, turn off the lights, and wait a few minutes. If you can see your hand in front of your face, itâs not dark enough.
Want more?
Check out Dr. Walchâs book: âSleep Groove: Why Your Body Clock Is So Mixed Up and What To Do About Itâ â a practical guide to getting your rhythm back on track.
Follow Dr. Olivia Walch on
Instagram: arca.scope
----------------------------
ANNOUNCING
"The Shift Workers Collective"
https://join.ahealthyshift.com/the-shift-workers-collective
Click the link to learn all about it
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_____________________
Disclaimer: Roger Sutherland is not a doctor or a medical professional. Always consult a physician before implementing any strategies mentioned in this podcast. Use of this information is strictly at your own risk. Roger Sutherland will not assume any liability for direct or indirect losses or damages that may result from the use of the information contained in this podcast including but not limited to economic loss, injury, illness, or death.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
We love it when Roger's here, ahealthy shift or otherwise,
we'll take your calls as well,wherever you are Right around
Australia.
133693.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
want to take some calls before we even chat.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, why not?
I'm just in a bit of a chattymood.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Having said that, we've got a very special guest
on the program coming up withyou Cannot wait, we're going to
talk about sleep.
She is known as the wonderfulDr Olivia Walsh.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Who's written a book called and it's called Sleep
Groove, and I've got it in myhand Sleep Groove why your body
clock is so mixed up and what todo about it.
Oh, so much to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We'll get to the good doctor very shortly.
Let's kick it off with a coupleof calls here.
Who have we got waiting in thewings?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Ardy morning, good morning Tony McInnes and Roger,
and I'd say it's Jackson, if I'mright.
Yeah, all the teams here youwanted to say Arthur.
Yeah, first of all somethingfunny before I ask Roger, a
quick question.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
We need something funny.
It's time of the morning.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I'm not sure, but I heard a caller say as I was
driving last night I've got abid, can I call the show?
And I started laughing,thinking what's that got to do
with calling the show?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Because I think it was a reference to the fact that
many, many years ago I did abit of an audition for a TV role
and it turned out I didn't getthe role.
This is many years ago, 40years ago, I was a mere kid and
anyway.
(01:42):
So I didn't get the role.
Because they said, oh well,you've got a beard.
And I'm thinking, well, had Iknown that I could have taken
off the beard.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
They didn't tell you.
Yeah, they didn't tell me, andso then?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
a listener, then texted and said I have a beard,
can I call in?
And I said, of course you can.
So that was the tag to thatsilly story.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
All right, fair enough, I started laughing for
you.
What's all that about?
But now I know.
Anyway, roger, while you'rethere, I've been listening to
your show, great show.
I had a slight vitamin Ddeficiency because of night
patrolling Never and I took youradvice.
But now I've been taking andbeing checked with a doctor and
I'm okay.
Would you say, to take thevitamin D tablets with meals or
(02:21):
it makes no difference.
Sorry, to take the vitamin Dtablets with meals or it makes
no difference.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Sorry to take the vitamin D tablets.
Yeah, always take vitamin D.
I take vitamin D every singleday, do you?
Yeah, even though we're here inAustralia, we are very, very
vitamin D deficient because wewear a lot of sunblock and
vitamin D doesn't synthesizethrough sunblock Gerald Quigley
used to talk about that.
So I highly recommend and mypersonal opinion is that we
(02:48):
should be taking at least 1,000IU international units, which is
we can buy them here at 1,000IU every single day, because
it's so important vitamin D andwe don't get enough of it from
our food at all.
It comes in mushrooms, a bit ofegg, but not enough.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
And would you say, it doesn't matter whether you take
them combined with food or itdoesn't really matter?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
You should really take vitamin D with a fatty meal
or with a dietary fat, and thereason being is because it's a
fat-soluble vitamin, which meansthat it goes into our fat cells
and it gets stored there untilsuch time as our body needs it.
So taking it with the fat helpsit to be actually absorbed into
(03:37):
our fat cells.
And I'll give you anotherinteresting fact, arthur, about
that too.
Interesting fact, arthur, aboutthat too.
When I went to Canada last year, I took a month's worth in one
go.
And you can do that withvitamin D because it's stored in
your fat cells.
As I said, it's a fat-solublevitamin, so it's really good
that you can, if you forget totake it for a day, take double
(03:58):
the dose the next day.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
That's what I've been doing, and I had a check, as I
normally do, with the doctor.
I'm all clear, which is goodnews, that's fantastic news and
I really appreciate it and I'llkeep doing that.
So I've been doing that yousaid I just wanted to be sure,
so I'll keep on going.
I do have them every day, sothank you very much.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Proud of you, Arthur, that's really really good, well
done.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You're Now Tiffy.
Now this is I don't knowwhether you're familiar with
Tiffy's bathroom break.
Tiffy, just bring us up to,while Roger's here bring us up
to date, tiffy.
Oh, it's working.
It's working, new toilet.
This is live radio.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
She's got a new toilet.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We are excited.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Are we serious?
Brand new toilet people ohTiffy, We've got an
international guest coming on.
What are we?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
doing so.
This is somebody who'slistening, in New York probably,
and going.
Speaker 7 (04:47):
I apologise.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
No, it's lovely, so you've christened it, tiff.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Yeah, well, guess what also happened An L-E-A-K.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh no, what you went for one, or you've got one.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
No, no, no, it actually leaked because the nut
on the cistern wasn't tightenough.
Oh, I know the feeling and ithappened over a few hours, and
not only that, I've got myperiod as well.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Oh, thanks for sharing.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
I can't deal with this.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
We don't need all the details.
Tiff.
Yeah, I apologise, so let'sjust talk about the, I'm just
thinking why do I need a leak?
No, not up to the basin, please, let's just talk about that
because we're excited.
Around Australia, people havebeen following the story of the
toilet.
The loo and the mould and thebathroom.
The mould and the beautiful.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
So it's working and you're happy and it's all paid
for.
Well, yes, but I've got to givePaul back the money because he
helped me pay for it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What was the total cost?
What was the total cost?
Speaker 7 (05:53):
$600.
Oh, the whole thing includingthe installation and the system
and the toilet was $670,something I can't remember what
the whole thing was$75-something.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, so nearly $700.
I think we should have somesort of gathering at your house.
We could do an outsidebroadcast and do a whole program
from Tiffy's bathroom.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
And guess what?
I christened it at 9.45 am it'stoo much information Tiffy's
done it.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Thanks, tiff.
Very, very funny when we comeback, our special guest Looking
forward to this.
What do we need to know aboutthe wonderful Dr Olivia Walsh?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
W-A-L-C-H.
Well, dr Olivia Walsh runs acompany called Arcuscope.
She started it and I've beenworking with Olivia working on
providing shift workers for heron a shift working app.
But she's written a book andthe book is called Sleep Groove
and she's talking all aboutsleep, trying to change the
scope of sleep, not from howlong we need to get, but the
(06:56):
timing of sleep is much moreimportant, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
All right, we'll talk to the good doctor.
We'll do that next.
It's Australia OvernightRoger's.
Here I'm Tony.
It's Australia OvernightRoger's.
Here I'm Tony Mack.
It's Australia, overnightMorning.
Lots of text, which is great.
If you're sending messages, tryand keep it classy 0477 693 693
.
Perth listeners talk back 133882.
(07:21):
For the rest of 133 693.
Roger is here, founder of AHealthy Shift.
So we talk to Roger everycouple of weeks of the program
about shift workers and thehighs and lows of working.
Really silly hours quite often.
Equally importantly, thank youto JC here.
John, thank you High Tone HouseFire.
(07:42):
This is Forster F-O-R-S-T-E-RForster Court, bentley East.
It's well alight.
Second alarm response Ninetrucks not yet under control.
Not yet under control.
We'll keep you posted on thatas we go through the next hour
or so.
It is a healthy shift.
(08:03):
Now just to share, share like abear.
What do we need to know aboutour very special guest coming up
?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Our very special guest is just the best person.
She is a doctor that isactually a mathematician that is
specialising in circadianrhythms and circadian science.
Now, I connected with Oliviathrough A Healthy Shift because
we were developing a shift workapp, or she was developing a
(08:29):
shift work app.
I can't claim that, and whathappened was I reached out to
her and spoke to her about theapp to help our shift working
community and ended up providingher with a number of live shift
workers to actually test thisapp.
When it first started on iPhone, it's now running and running
really well.
The app has evolved intosomething that's fantastic for
(08:51):
shift workers.
Anyway, I'll continue tocommunicate with Olivia and
she's written this book, which Iwas really excited to get hold
of, which is called Sleep Groove.
I've got a copy of it hereSleep, Groove Sleep.
G-R-O-O-V-E.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Sleep Groove.
I've got a copy of it hereSleep Groove Sleep G-R-O-O-V-E.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Sleep Groove, getting into a sleep groove.
And if you think about it, wewant to get into a groove, a
sleep groove.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Not only that, dr Olivia has, what a one-year-old,
18-month-old so that'll be achallenge as well.
Dr Olivia Walsh.
Welcome to Australia.
Overnight, right across ourwonderful country, dr Olivia hi.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Hi, I am so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
It's lovely to have you on the program.
The great man Roger mentionedto me you have a little Kai,
he's how old.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
He is basically a year, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Twelve months, and this is number one.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Number one, and so I was very scared because in my
book, when I was writing it, hewasn't born yet and I was like,
oh my God, I'm going to tellpeople all this stuff about
sleep and then I'm going to havethe kid and it's all going to
go out the window.
But actually genuinely keepingsleep regularity at the
forefront of my mind reallyhelped.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So I was like that's such a huge relief at the
forefront of my mind reallyhelped, so I was like that's
such a huge relief.
Well, I tell you what you'regoing to win a lot of hearts as
we speak for the next fewminutes about sleep, and
particularly with children, nodoubt.
How are you managing that witha little tacker?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I am so willing to share all my secrets, though as
a scientist I have to say thisis only number one, right?
So I could have another kid andthat kid's sleep could be awful
, and I could be like oh no, Ithought I was good.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Sleeping your mums and dads, by the way, and
sleeping with little onesovernight.
We'll take some calls on that.
133693.
How did you and I'm sureRoger's got some thoughts for
you as well how did you, why didyou immerse yourself into the
idea of the challenges aroundthose that work nights, shift
(10:51):
workers in particular, and whyhave you immersed yourself in
this particular science?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so when I was in college, I was absolutely
crazy with sleep.
I would pull doubleall-nighters, I'd sleep any hour
of the day, and I was on therowing team, so theoretically I
was supposed to be healthy.
You know, I was eating prettygood, I was working out all the
time.
Why was my health so terrible?
And that led me to startstudying the math of your sleep
(11:35):
and your circadian rhythms.
Your body's internal clock thatsort of tells you, hey, now's
the time to be awake, now's thetime to be asleep.
And the more I studied that, themore I started to think of
sleeping.
Kind of the same way we thinkabout heartbeats or breathing,
where rhythm is really centralto whether or not it's healthy.
(11:55):
You wouldn't hear a wildlyirregular heartbeat and be like
that person is fine.
You'd be like that person issick.
But we don't think that wayabout sleep.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,like we need to.
We need to think about rhythmand sleep.
It's really important.
And then that led me to shiftwork, which was kind of like
what I was doing in college, butway worse because it's your
(12:16):
whole life as opposed to fouryears where you're also having
fun.
I really think shift work is apublic health crisis.
I think the world needs shiftwork.
Shift workers keep critical24-hour operations running.
Shift workers run awesome radioshows, but the cost of them
providing those services is amajor detriment to their health
(12:38):
and we need to do better as asociety to take care of our
shift workers, and we need to dobetter as a society to take
care of our shift workers.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Olivia, it's something that you use the
analogy of the heartbeat andI've heard you use this one and
I think it's fantastic.
Now we need to get into arhythm.
It's always interesting that amathematician has gone into
circadian science because it'sall about rhythms and
understanding that.
Can you just talk to us aboutthe heartbeat and your analogy
(13:08):
of the heartbeat, that ifsomeone tries to catch up on
sleep, it's like trying to catchup on heartbeats.
Can you go through that one?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
And in fact I've got like twodifferent flavors of this one.
So you're going to get twoanalogies, okay.
So the first one is likeeveryone knows about eight hours
a night.
Right, everyone's like sleepduration, sleep duration.
You got to get eight hours anight, but we don't care about
when those eight hours happen.
And the analogy I've got forthat is okay.
(13:36):
It's like listening to twoheartbeats one that's really
consistent, like done, done, dun, and one that's really
inconsistent, like da-da,da-da-da, and being like hey,
they're equally healthy becausethey both had 60 beats in a
minute.
That's what we functionally doand we say, hey, yeah, you're
(13:57):
fine, as long as you get eighthours a night, it doesn't matter
if it's the same time everynight or if it's all around the
clock hours a night, it doesn'tmatter if it's the same time
every night or if it's allaround the clock, like.
Rhythm is really important andwe shouldn't just be sort of
bean counting hours of sleep,like you're bean counting beats
of your heart in that minute.
And then I've also got ananalogy for how sleeping is,
kind of like breathing, okay.
(14:18):
So imagine like you're doing ashort jog, you get out of breath
, you're going to breathe moreafter that to sort of compensate
for having lost your breath,but you're not going to be
breathing heavily five yearsfrom now because you're still
recovering from that jog you didtoday.
Right, you sort of breathefaster to recover and then
(14:40):
you're sort of leveling out to asteady state again.
That's what I think about whenI think about catching up on
your sleep debt.
Right, like you've got sort ofa, a crude sleep debt that when
you have a chance to sleep more,you're going to get rid of,
you're going to sleep more andit's going to clear out that
sleep debt.
Just like how, breathing moreafter a jog, kind of gets oxygen
back into your blood, but it'snot something where, 10 years
(15:02):
from now, it's going to be likeoh yes, remember that time I
lost sleep in 2025?
So, yeah, like just startthinking of sleep like all these
other body rhythms, becauseit's a rhythm in your body and
things start to become moreintuitive.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I think one of the most important things that I
took out of sleep groove,without any doubt, was we have a
lot of people like we go outclubbing.
You know, people go outclubbing and they go to bed at
2am and they think, oh, I'lljust sleep until 10, then I've
got my eight hours sleep.
So that's good for me.
Liken this to the analogy ofanyone that's raising a child
(15:48):
like a teenager and theystruggle to get them up to go to
school Monday, tuesday, thenWednesday, thursday, friday.
They're in a rhythm, but thenit's the weekend and they don't
have to get up on Saturday.
So they sleep in late Saturday.
They sleep in late on Sundaybecause they're up late Friday
night.
They're up late Saturday andthen comes the problem on Monday
morning of trying to get themup late on Sunday because
they're up late Friday night.
They're up late Saturday andthen comes the problem on Monday
morning of trying to get themup and we all have this
Mondayitis.
Can you explain to us what'sactually occurred there for
(16:12):
Mondayitis, olivia?
For teenagers you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah for sure.
It's basically jet lag.
It's like for me if I were tofly three hours from New York to
California and the weekendthere and then fly back.
My body is on a later time zoneon Monday, and so all the fun
of jet lag you're experiencing,except you're 17 and you're
(16:37):
taking tests that will decideyour future.
Decide your future.
And so I think the key thinghere is you don't actually have
to cross time zones to get jetlagged because your body doesn't
know.
It's like, oh, I've crossedtime zones.
That's like a humanconstruction, but what it does
know is that your light exposurehas changed.
And so those teens, whenthey're staying up late on the
weekend, they're getting lightlater and they're missing light
(17:00):
in the morning.
So that's making it for theirbody Seeing those signals thinks
oh okay, I guess I've sort offunctionally changed time zones
and it shifts everything to belater.
So they're waking up Mondaymorning while there's a lot of
melatonin still in their body,which is the night hormone.
It's going to make them groggy.
It's going to again make it sothat like if they've got
important things going on,important tests, they're really
(17:23):
going to struggle.
And it's exactly like what aperson crossing countries would
feel if they were on a plane.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, that's fantastic, a great way of
explaining it.
And I think, with children, Ithink this is the great example
for adults for us to keep thisrhythm going ourselves, because
we do tend to get to Fridaynight and on Saturday we think,
oh no, I don't need to get upfor work tomorrow, so I'll sleep
in.
And I know now, I've kept thesame routine all the time and
(17:55):
it's easy for me because I'm notdoing shift work now myself.
But Tony, you're on night shiftand you now get into a routine
for those five nights and youget into a routine for those
five nights.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
It is a rhythm, yeah, and you get into a routine and
then you've got to come out ofit for Saturday and Sunday as
well.
In fact, arguably, it's moredifficult over the weekend when
you're not having to do that.
We'll come back to that in justa moment.
We'll do this break when wecome back.
If you have a question youwould like to put to Dr Olivia
Walsh, author, author of the newbook it's called Sleep Groove,
why your body clock is so messedup and what is it you can do
about it?
1-double-3-6-9-3.
(18:28):
We'll take your calls, happy todo that More.
The other side of this, rogeris here.
Roger Sullivan, you can catchup with Roger every couple of
weeks If you have a question youwould like to put to our very
special guest.
Dr Olivia Walsh is in the UnitedStates of America.
The book talks about.
Well, it's called Sleep Groove.
(18:48):
There's a couple of things,olivia, before Roger asks you
another question With the greataudience across Australia.
One of the common things thatpeople say quite more off air is
older members of community thatstruggle with overnight sleep.
A that is presumably a thing.
Is there anything that you cantalk about briefly that might
(19:12):
give them an idea of why, at acertain point in life, you
struggle to get the sort ofsleep you may have been able to
get when you were 25?
.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah for sure.
So I would say cetidianamplitude, which is basically as
you get older, your rhythms getflatter, you don't have as much
of a difference between daysand nights and sort of right off
the bat you can see why thatmight make you wake up more.
Your nights aren't as nighty,and so then you're more likely
to get woken up by somethingYou're not in as deep a sleep.
(19:46):
This is maybe related, justnaturally, to aging.
It could also be because youreyes get less sensitive to light
, like kids are super sensitiveto light, but older people tend
to be less sensitive.
And since light is what's goingto set your body's clock if
you're sort of older, set yourbody's clock, if you're sort of
(20:06):
older, outside getting light,but it's just not interpreted
the same way it used to, thenyou don't have as strong a day
signal saying hey, it's daytime,now time to be awake, which
means in 16 hours it's going tobe nighttime, time to be asleep.
And I've got another analogyrelated to this.
Are you up for like a somewhatgoofy analogy for when?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
people wake up, absolutely Please.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
All right, all right, strapping for this analogy.
Okay.
So imagine your brain like awater cooler, and when you're
awake it fills up and whenyou're sleeping it drains.
And it's got like a little tap.
You push to drain, like a sortof you push the button and water
comes out.
If you've ever been to abarbecue and you're filling up
your water bottle and it startsto get low to get more out of it
(20:54):
, you tilt it towards you, soyou tilt the water cooler
towards you and that way yourpour doesn't get interrupted.
You get a nice long pour.
So your body's clock does thistoo, where basically at night
it's tilted towards you to helpyou stay asleep.
You get this nice long pour out.
It doesn't drop below the levelof the tap and stop, and during
(21:16):
the day it's tilted away fromyou, so it's harder to fall
asleep and stay asleep.
Now you can still sleep ifyou're super tired during the
day.
The same way, you can still getwater out of a water cooler
that's super full but tiltedaway from you because it's so
full.
But what's going on with olderpeople is they don't have as
much of a tilt towards youduring the night, and so it's
(21:36):
like you're at the water cooler,you're pushing it, you're
getting your bottle filled upand then the water level falls
below the top and the the streamof water stops.
That's you waking up in themiddle of the night.
So what you can do to try andget around that?
Just get even more light duringthe day and even darker nights
and do the exact same thingevery single day.
(21:58):
Um, how's that?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
that's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
I'll tell you.
The thing that we've learned athome is I know we talk about
this all the time that yourroom's got to be pitch black to
sleep in.
But we at home are now turningeverything completely dark.
So we've got no LEDs, no light,no, nothing, no light around
(22:22):
the windows, close the bedroomdoor.
There is actually no lightpollution in the room at all and
it's pitch black.
And I applied the rule and Ispoke about it today on my
social media that if you holdyour hand in front of your face,
if you can see your hand, thenit's not dark enough in your
room If you can hold your handin front of your face and see
(22:43):
your hand.
And I found that since we'vedone that, my sleep is so much
better Really Within a week.
So much better straight awayand that pitch blackness.
But I'm also someone who getsup at 5.30, 6 o'clock every
morning and I hit the road and Igo out for a walk to get that
(23:04):
early light, to stimulate thatcircadian rhythm, so it knows
where it's at by nine o'clock.
I'm done by the end of the day,so I don't get that blue light
at night, but I'm done and thisis what the best lesson is in
Olivia for people to get earlylight early that daylight
outside, but then to cut thatblue light and make their
(23:24):
bedrooms pitch black at nightbecause that light.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Well, you can do it at night, but it's about
sleeping during the day for manyof us.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
It still needs to be pitch black.
It needs to be pitch blackDuring the day.
Yes, it does.
It needs to be pitch black.
That's right, isn't it Olivia?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, basically our brains are set up as people to
like, really get it.
If you get, like, hey, more ofa thing, you either get better
or worse.
But when it comes to light,what you need is more of a
rhythm.
You want the brightest lightyou can get during the bright
periods and the darkest dark youcan get during the dark periods
, because anything else is goingto make it.
(23:59):
So your days aren't as dayishas they need to be and your
nights aren't night dayish asthey need to be, and your, your
nights aren't nighty enough froma biological perspective and
you're going to have moreawakenings during the night.
And so, like I really thinkwe've forgotten what it's like
to to live outside of sort ofindustrial society.
(24:20):
But you go to a farm, you spendlike one night on a farm and,
yeah, you do the hand in frontof your face, test and you
remember, oh yeah, this is whatdarkness feels like.
We've really lost that inmodern society.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah, we talk about the.
Is it the Oklahoma study aswell, olivia, where they talk
about that?
They took the night owls andalso the morning larks out
camping where there was noelectronic devices, no light, no
nothing.
And these people were allhealthy.
But what they did was peoplesay, oh, I'm a night owl so I
can't go to sleep early, I justcan't because I don't.
(24:53):
And then you've got the morninglarks that go oh, I can't sleep
in, I wake up and get up.
When they took them camping andthey were in darkness, with no
access to any light pollution,no electronic devices or
anything, they all went to sleepand woke up within an hour of
each other, which shows you theimpact of light.
Correct, correct?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
No, it's true Like the sort of spread of
chronotypes before they wentcamping was really wide.
You had some people who lookedlike they were adjusted to going
to bed at like three or four inthe morning.
One week camping brought themback and all those super night
owls had vanished.
They looked sort of they werestill a little later, but they
(25:36):
weren't extreme.
And so it's not just sort ofyour genetics right, it's not
just what your DNA says, it'swhat you feed your system, and
the most important thing islight exposure, and most of us
are feeding ourselves a sort ofpoor light diet.
We're really not getting thedarkness we need during the
(25:56):
night and the light we needduring the day.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
But, in fairness, some people are very sensitive
to light though, aren't they,which can make them a later
chronotype.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, and this is actually a result from people
who are at Monash and now atFlinders.
Australia is full of amazingsleep scientists.
By the way.
What they did is they looked atpeople and saw how much light
it took to suppress theirmelatonin production.
So your body makes melatonin onits own and if you're in the
light it's like, hey, I guessthe sun's still out, I'm going
(26:25):
to not make as much melatonin,so it suppresses it.
And for some people it took 400lux, which is pretty bright, to
suppress their melatonin by half.
But for other people it onlytook 10 lux, which means you and
your spouse can be in the samehouse, like doing the same stuff
during the day, but have verydifferent reactions to dim light
(26:48):
.
And it's like that if we didn'tlive in an industrial society,
we wouldn't spend a lot of timegetting Like there's a pretty
fast transition, with sunriseand sunset, between darkness and
sun, like sunlight, like reallybright sun.
Um, but in in modern life thesun sets and then we we stay in
this yeah, low, but not that lowindoor level of light for hours
(27:12):
after the sun goes down.
Our bodies didn't evolve withthat and, as result, it can
really exaggerate thedifferences between two people.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, that's right.
And to talk about light insidea house, we're talking about 400
to 500 lux of light as normallighting inside a house, as
against the candle, which wouldbe about 10 lux, to give someone
an indication as to what thedifference is between those two
lights.
So some people are not assensitive to a candlelight,
others right up the top.
Thanks, olivia, really, reallyappreciate you coming on, olivia
(27:44):
.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Just a quick one from me, if I may.
The great breakfast team hereon this radio station 3AW in
Melbourne is Ross and Russ, andone of the things they often
talk about is having to go tobed early to do a breakfast
program, for which Ross has beendoing for many, many decades.
But he's learned over the yearsnot to look at the clock.
(28:05):
If he gets up at one or two, orin the middle of the night, if
you like, for whatever reason,not to look at the clock.
In other words, don't thinkabout the time until such time
as an alarm actually rings thatthen says it's time to get out
of bed for your job.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I like that and in particular, like you can't
control whether or not you wakeup, Like that's outside your
control, but you can control thelight exposure you get.
So I've shifted from thinking,oh, did I sleep good last night?
To more thinking, hey, did Iget a good dark last night?
Did I get good darkness?
(28:42):
And if I do, I'm pretty happy,even if I'm up for a couple
hours, which my kid.
I definitely was up for a fewhours during the night
approximately 11 months ago.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, I'll bet you were.
It's lovely to talk to you andI hope we have you as a guest on
the program another time.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
This was an absolute blast.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Dr Olivia Walsh.
Thank you, olivia, she's justfantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Oh, she's absolutely amazing and the book is good for
people that have just called in.
For anybody that wants to findthe book.
It's called Sleep Groove andit's why your body clock is so
messed up and what to do aboutit.
It's like a black-covered bookand it's got like a yellow sun.
It's about $30.
I know it's on Amazon.
You'll definitely find it onAmazon.
(29:27):
That's where I got mine.
And if people would like to wina copy of this book, if they go
to my social media, at aunderscore, healthy, underscore
shift on Instagram, I'm actuallyrunning a competition.
I'm giving away a copy ofOlivia's book at the moment.
So, at a underscore, healthy,underscore shift, go along there
(29:48):
and the competition is there.
You'll see the book and you'llsee the competition that's
running there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Very kindly.
Brian in Blackburn says amessage says the overnight
program, I don't get sick.
Well, that's just because of.
Says the overnight program, Idon't get sick.
Well, that's just because Ihave no reason why I don't get
sick.
I sometimes feel a little ill,I sometimes make others feel a
little ill, but so far, so good.
I think I did have one nightoff for some reason last year.
Yeah, I remember that.
(30:14):
I can't remember what thereason was now, but I did.
Thank you for that, brian.
Very kind of you to say We'lldo this break.
When we come back we can takeyour calls.
If you'd like to join us,you're more than welcome.
133-693.
It's Australia Overnight.
If you would like to be part ofit, you can jump on board
anytime.
When we talk about a topic thetopic it still means that you
(30:34):
can get through.
133693.
If you'd like to have your say,you can send a text as well,
and there are many, which ismost gratifying.
0477693.
G'day Tony McEnrodger.
Love the topic.
Would it help if you wouldsometimes wear a sleep mask to
bed, which I've never done,maybe?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I should.
Yes, maybe I should, definitelythe sleep mask.
And sleep masks have come along way now too, because
they've got like eye cups, soyou know, your fake eyelashes,
they won't actually.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
They won't touch the inside.
They won't touch the inside, sothey're very, very comfortable
for you, so I can leave them onwhile I'm sleeping.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You can leave them on while you're sleeping, tony,
yes, you idiot, no.
A sleep mask highly recommended.
I have found, when I was onnight shift with mine, that I
would roll over to grab my phoneto look at the time.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
When you were a police officer.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, when I was working.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Well, that's the point that and I keep talking
about the brekkie program hereon 3OW for other networks, other
radio stations.
Forgive me for that, but youcan apply it to breakfast teams
right across Australia, or TVprograms where people get up at
three and four o'clock in themorning, where you're in the cot
by eight or 8.30, you've got toget that rest because your
(31:46):
alarm goes off at three o'clockin the morning.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right.
And that dark restorative sleep.
That's why I say you say, oh, Ican't.
You know I'm sleeping duringthe day, so it's not dark.
Roll the blinds.
Face mask is the cheapestoption.
Put a face mask on pitch black.
I've rolled over and grabbed myphone and tried to look at my
(32:11):
phone and thought, oh, it's notworking.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You shouldn't look at your phone.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I want to know what time it is, whether I should get
up, but my mask was on, Ididn't know.
But that's what Ross is.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Don't look at the phone.
You don't need to look at thephone.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
That's if you've got to go back to sleep.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
Well, set the alarm.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, true.
Well, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Ross is all over it.
He is very much so, mary inAdelaide.
Hello, you're in the studiowith me, mary.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Roger.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Good morning Mary.
Speaker 6 (32:36):
First of all, is don't take your phone into the
bedroom.
There it is no television, nophone in your bedroom.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
That's just naughty.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
The bedroom Life will go on, roger and they will get
in contact with you later.
If it's really important, Icouldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I couldn't agree more .
Speaker 6 (32:53):
Your bed is for only three things.
I'm a nurse.
You read more.
Your bed is for only threethings.
I'm a nurse, I do shift work.
Well done, and I've been doingshift work for 30 years.
Oh my goodness me, well done.
I know.
God bless.
We're beautiful people, livingangels.
Yeah, thank you.
That's a very nice thing to say.
(33:14):
What I have discovered is thatdarkness is the most important
thing in the world for shiftworkers.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 6 (33:29):
Totally, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
What's your secret?
Speaker 6 (33:33):
I don't have the roller downs at my place because
I rent.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
But every now and then I spend some time at a
friend's place and they've gotroller down blinds on it.
And you know I'll go to bed andthink.
You know, the magpies are goingto start singing and I'll be
awake at six.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
Knowing that I've got to go through to two o'clock or
whatever the next morning andthey've got roller down blinds
and it's like I stand there inshock for about 15 minutes that
I've actually woken up at 10o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yep.
As to how dark it is.
It's the darkness.
Yes, it is.
It's the darkness.
Yes, it is.
I used to have a roller blindon mine and it makes such a big
difference.
No awareness of time at all,yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
It's very important.
Mary, it's lovely to talk toyou.
Thank you for being on theprogram.
I appreciate it.
You can as well.
You can join us anytime.
133693, 133693.
The other thing and we haven'treally canvassed it too much
this morning, but many talkabout the isolation of shift
workers.
(34:47):
Terrible.
Where you jump in the cot,you're there, family might be
doing other things, you mightmiss the run into school for
whatever reason, and then thatgoes to one member of the family
because you're in the cot by6.30 or 7.
So there's all sorts of thoseissues as well, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Mental health in shift workers is at a critical
time, particularly now, and Ithink one thing that we
completely lose sight of is theisolation away from family
friends being at work while ourpartners and that are
socialising, and that missingout on those sort of things, the
rotating shifts, now thatcircadian misalignment already
(35:26):
causes mental health issues tous already just by it being
misaligned with what is normaldiurnal, which is daytime,
nighttime, and I think one ofthe biggest problems that we
have is you're going to bed,your partner's not there, you're
up, your partner's in bed,you're at work, they're at a
(35:46):
social function, they're withfamily, so on and so forth.
It makes such a big differenceand an impact and you can't
catch up with just friends.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, and that is a challenge, particularly during
the week.
Pete, a quick comment.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
Yeah, guys, good evening.
I usually finish work aroundthe 4 o'clock.
I usually go to bed betweenquarter to 5.
Hopefully I'll wake up by 11.
I usually wake up around 10.30.
Yep, last Friday night Istarted work a lot earlier.
I finished work at 3 o'clock,woke up at 7 o'clock and brought
her to basketball.
Still had those five hours ofsleep Disaster.
(36:22):
Saturday and Sunday zombie.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Could not get off the couch, could not do anything.
Wife was going to kill me.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, there you go, which is part of the issue,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Peter, the big issue that you had there is see, this
is what Dr Olivia was justtalking about.
It's not about the quantity ofsleep, it's about the timing of
the sleep, and your timing wasout, so therefore your body was
totally confused.
Yeah, very confused.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Pete got to leave you there.
We'll do that.
We'll wrap it up.
The other side of this, themusic quiz.
On the way.
It is Australia Overnight.
A lovely little note from LeeForrest at 5AA who says what a
great song.
Hello Darkness, my Old Friend.
Yes, that's a classic.
There you go.
Thank you, paul Simon.
Sorry for all the text we justdidn't get to.
(37:06):
But many people saying how muchthey enjoyed that segment.
She was wonderful, your veryspecial guest.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Oh, fantastic, and if people are interested, I've got
plenty more that I can bring onto talk about topics like that.
We will do that, I promise you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Ahealthyshiftcom.
Have a look at the website.
Instagram At A underscorehealthy underscore shift and
that's where the opportunity towin Copy of that book.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
A copy of the Sleuth Group.
Thank you, see you nextfortnight.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
A couple of weeks time you.
In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
We love it when Roger's here, ahealthy shift or otherwise,
we'll take your calls as well,wherever you are Right around
Australia.
133693.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
want to take some calls before we even chat.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, why not?
I'm just in a bit of a chattymood.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Having said that, we've got a very special guest
on the program coming up withyou Cannot wait, we're going to
talk about sleep.
She is known as the wonderfulDr Olivia Walsh.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Who's written a book called and it's called Sleep
Groove, and I've got it in myhand Sleep Groove why your body
clock is so mixed up and what todo about it.
Oh, so much to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We'll get to the good doctor very shortly.
Let's kick it off with a coupleof calls here.
Who have we got waiting in thewings?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Ardy morning, good morning Tony McInnes and Roger,
and I'd say it's Jackson, if I'mright.
Yeah, all the teams here youwanted to say Arthur.
Yeah, first of all somethingfunny before I ask Roger, a
quick question.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
We need something funny.
It's time of the morning.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I'm not sure, but I heard a caller say as I was
driving last night I've got abid, can I call the show?
And I started laughing,thinking what's that got to do
with calling the show?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Because I think it was a reference to the fact that
many, many years ago I did abit of an audition for a TV role
and it turned out I didn't getthe role.
This is many years ago, 40years ago, I was a mere kid and
anyway.
(01:42):
So I didn't get the role.
Because they said, oh well,you've got a beard.
And I'm thinking, well, had Iknown that I could have taken
off the beard.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
They didn't tell you.
Yeah, they didn't tell me, andso then?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
a listener, then texted and said I have a beard,
can I call in?
And I said, of course you can.
So that was the tag to thatsilly story.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
All right, fair enough, I started laughing for
you.
What's all that about?
But now I know.
Anyway, roger, while you'rethere, I've been listening to
your show, great show.
I had a slight vitamin Ddeficiency because of night
patrolling Never and I took youradvice.
But now I've been taking andbeing checked with a doctor and
I'm okay.
Would you say, to take thevitamin D tablets with meals or
(02:21):
it makes no difference.
Sorry, to take the vitamin Dtablets with meals or it makes
no difference.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Sorry to take the vitamin D tablets.
Yeah, always take vitamin D.
I take vitamin D every singleday, do you?
Yeah, even though we're here inAustralia, we are very, very
vitamin D deficient because wewear a lot of sunblock and
vitamin D doesn't synthesizethrough sunblock Gerald Quigley
used to talk about that.
So I highly recommend and mypersonal opinion is that we
(02:48):
should be taking at least 1,000IU international units, which is
we can buy them here at 1,000IU every single day, because
it's so important vitamin D andwe don't get enough of it from
our food at all.
It comes in mushrooms, a bit ofegg, but not enough.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
And would you say, it doesn't matter whether you take
them combined with food or itdoesn't really matter?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
You should really take vitamin D with a fatty meal
or with a dietary fat, and thereason being is because it's a
fat-soluble vitamin, which meansthat it goes into our fat cells
and it gets stored there untilsuch time as our body needs it.
So taking it with the fat helpsit to be actually absorbed into
(03:37):
our fat cells.
And I'll give you anotherinteresting fact, arthur, about
that too.
Interesting fact, arthur, aboutthat too.
When I went to Canada last year, I took a month's worth in one
go.
And you can do that withvitamin D because it's stored in
your fat cells.
As I said, it's a fat-solublevitamin, so it's really good
that you can, if you forget totake it for a day, take double
(03:58):
the dose the next day.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
That's what I've been doing, and I had a check, as I
normally do, with the doctor.
I'm all clear, which is goodnews, that's fantastic news and
I really appreciate it and I'llkeep doing that.
So I've been doing that yousaid I just wanted to be sure,
so I'll keep on going.
I do have them every day, sothank you very much.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Proud of you, Arthur, that's really really good, well
done.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You're Now Tiffy.
Now this is I don't knowwhether you're familiar with
Tiffy's bathroom break.
Tiffy, just bring us up to,while Roger's here bring us up
to date, tiffy.
Oh, it's working.
It's working, new toilet.
This is live radio.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
She's got a new toilet.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We are excited.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Are we serious?
Brand new toilet people ohTiffy, We've got an
international guest coming on.
What are we?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
doing so.
This is somebody who'slistening, in New York probably,
and going.
Speaker 7 (04:47):
I apologise.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
No, it's lovely, so you've christened it, tiff.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Yeah, well, guess what also happened An L-E-A-K.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh no, what you went for one, or you've got one.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
No, no, no, it actually leaked because the nut
on the cistern wasn't tightenough.
Oh, I know the feeling and ithappened over a few hours, and
not only that, I've got myperiod as well.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Oh, thanks for sharing.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
I can't deal with this.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
We don't need all the details.
Tiff.
Yeah, I apologise, so let'sjust talk about the, I'm just
thinking why do I need a leak?
No, not up to the basin, please, let's just talk about that
because we're excited.
Around Australia, people havebeen following the story of the
toilet.
The loo and the mould and thebathroom.
The mould and the beautiful.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
So it's working and you're happy and it's all paid
for.
Well, yes, but I've got to givePaul back the money because he
helped me pay for it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What was the total cost?
What was the total cost?
Speaker 7 (05:53):
$600.
Oh, the whole thing includingthe installation and the system
and the toilet was $670,something I can't remember what
the whole thing was$75-something.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, so nearly $700.
I think we should have somesort of gathering at your house.
We could do an outsidebroadcast and do a whole program
from Tiffy's bathroom.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
And guess what?
I christened it at 9.45 am it'stoo much information Tiffy's
done it.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Thanks, tiff.
Very, very funny when we comeback, our special guest Looking
forward to this.
What do we need to know aboutthe wonderful Dr Olivia Walsh?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
W-A-L-C-H.
Well, dr Olivia Walsh runs acompany called Arcuscope.
She started it and I've beenworking with Olivia working on
providing shift workers for heron a shift working app.
But she's written a book andthe book is called Sleep Groove
and she's talking all aboutsleep, trying to change the
scope of sleep, not from howlong we need to get, but the
(06:56):
timing of sleep is much moreimportant, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
All right, we'll talk to the good doctor.
We'll do that next.
It's Australia OvernightRoger's.
Here I'm Tony.
It's Australia OvernightRoger's.
Here I'm Tony Mack.
It's Australia, overnightMorning.
Lots of text, which is great.
If you're sending messages, tryand keep it classy 0477 693 693
.
Perth listeners talk back 133882.
(07:21):
For the rest of 133 693.
Roger is here, founder of AHealthy Shift.
So we talk to Roger everycouple of weeks of the program
about shift workers and thehighs and lows of working.
Really silly hours quite often.
Equally importantly, thank youto JC here.
John, thank you High Tone HouseFire.
(07:42):
This is Forster F-O-R-S-T-E-RForster Court, bentley East.
It's well alight.
Second alarm response Ninetrucks not yet under control.
Not yet under control.
We'll keep you posted on thatas we go through the next hour
or so.
It is a healthy shift.
(08:03):
Now just to share, share like abear.
What do we need to know aboutour very special guest coming up
?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Our very special guest is just the best person.
She is a doctor that isactually a mathematician that is
specialising in circadianrhythms and circadian science.
Now, I connected with Oliviathrough A Healthy Shift because
we were developing a shift workapp, or she was developing a
(08:29):
shift work app.
I can't claim that, and whathappened was I reached out to
her and spoke to her about theapp to help our shift working
community and ended up providingher with a number of live shift
workers to actually test thisapp.
When it first started on iPhone, it's now running and running
really well.
The app has evolved intosomething that's fantastic for
(08:51):
shift workers.
Anyway, I'll continue tocommunicate with Olivia and
she's written this book, which Iwas really excited to get hold
of, which is called Sleep Groove.
I've got a copy of it hereSleep, Groove Sleep.
G-R-O-O-V-E.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Sleep Groove.
I've got a copy of it hereSleep Groove Sleep G-R-O-O-V-E.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Sleep Groove, getting into a sleep groove.
And if you think about it, wewant to get into a groove, a
sleep groove.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Not only that, dr Olivia has, what a one-year-old,
18-month-old so that'll be achallenge as well.
Dr Olivia Walsh.
Welcome to Australia.
Overnight, right across ourwonderful country, dr Olivia hi.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Hi, I am so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
It's lovely to have you on the program.
The great man Roger mentionedto me you have a little Kai,
he's how old.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
He is basically a year, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Twelve months, and this is number one.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Number one, and so I was very scared because in my
book, when I was writing it, hewasn't born yet and I was like,
oh my God, I'm going to tellpeople all this stuff about
sleep and then I'm going to havethe kid and it's all going to
go out the window.
But actually genuinely keepingsleep regularity at the
forefront of my mind reallyhelped.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So I was like that's such a huge relief at the
forefront of my mind reallyhelped, so I was like that's
such a huge relief.
Well, I tell you what you'regoing to win a lot of hearts as
we speak for the next fewminutes about sleep, and
particularly with children, nodoubt.
How are you managing that witha little tacker?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I am so willing to share all my secrets, though as
a scientist I have to say thisis only number one, right?
So I could have another kid andthat kid's sleep could be awful
, and I could be like oh no, Ithought I was good.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Sleeping your mums and dads, by the way, and
sleeping with little onesovernight.
We'll take some calls on that.
133693.
How did you and I'm sureRoger's got some thoughts for
you as well how did you, why didyou immerse yourself into the
idea of the challenges aroundthose that work nights, shift
(10:51):
workers in particular, and whyhave you immersed yourself in
this particular science?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so when I was in college, I was absolutely
crazy with sleep.
I would pull doubleall-nighters, I'd sleep any hour
of the day, and I was on therowing team, so theoretically I
was supposed to be healthy.
You know, I was eating prettygood, I was working out all the
time.
Why was my health so terrible?
And that led me to startstudying the math of your sleep
(11:35):
and your circadian rhythms.
Your body's internal clock thatsort of tells you, hey, now's
the time to be awake, now's thetime to be asleep.
And the more I studied that, themore I started to think of
sleeping.
Kind of the same way we thinkabout heartbeats or breathing,
where rhythm is really centralto whether or not it's healthy.
(11:55):
You wouldn't hear a wildlyirregular heartbeat and be like
that person is fine.
You'd be like that person issick.
But we don't think that wayabout sleep.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,like we need to.
We need to think about rhythmand sleep.
It's really important.
And then that led me to shiftwork, which was kind of like
what I was doing in college, butway worse because it's your
(12:16):
whole life as opposed to fouryears where you're also having
fun.
I really think shift work is apublic health crisis.
I think the world needs shiftwork.
Shift workers keep critical24-hour operations running.
Shift workers run awesome radioshows, but the cost of them
providing those services is amajor detriment to their health
(12:38):
and we need to do better as asociety to take care of our
shift workers, and we need to dobetter as a society to take
care of our shift workers.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Olivia, it's something that you use the
analogy of the heartbeat andI've heard you use this one and
I think it's fantastic.
Now we need to get into arhythm.
It's always interesting that amathematician has gone into
circadian science because it'sall about rhythms and
understanding that.
Can you just talk to us aboutthe heartbeat and your analogy
(13:08):
of the heartbeat, that ifsomeone tries to catch up on
sleep, it's like trying to catchup on heartbeats.
Can you go through that one?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
And in fact I've got like twodifferent flavors of this one.
So you're going to get twoanalogies, okay.
So the first one is likeeveryone knows about eight hours
a night.
Right, everyone's like sleepduration, sleep duration.
You got to get eight hours anight, but we don't care about
when those eight hours happen.
And the analogy I've got forthat is okay.
(13:36):
It's like listening to twoheartbeats one that's really
consistent, like done, done, dun, and one that's really
inconsistent, like da-da,da-da-da, and being like hey,
they're equally healthy becausethey both had 60 beats in a
minute.
That's what we functionally doand we say, hey, yeah, you're
(13:57):
fine, as long as you get eighthours a night, it doesn't matter
if it's the same time everynight or if it's all around the
clock hours a night, it doesn'tmatter if it's the same time
every night or if it's allaround the clock, like.
Rhythm is really important andwe shouldn't just be sort of
bean counting hours of sleep,like you're bean counting beats
of your heart in that minute.
And then I've also got ananalogy for how sleeping is,
kind of like breathing, okay.
(14:18):
So imagine like you're doing ashort jog, you get out of breath
, you're going to breathe moreafter that to sort of compensate
for having lost your breath,but you're not going to be
breathing heavily five yearsfrom now because you're still
recovering from that jog you didtoday.
Right, you sort of breathefaster to recover and then
(14:40):
you're sort of leveling out to asteady state again.
That's what I think about whenI think about catching up on
your sleep debt.
Right, like you've got sort ofa, a crude sleep debt that when
you have a chance to sleep more,you're going to get rid of,
you're going to sleep more andit's going to clear out that
sleep debt.
Just like how, breathing moreafter a jog, kind of gets oxygen
back into your blood, but it'snot something where, 10 years
(15:02):
from now, it's going to be likeoh yes, remember that time I
lost sleep in 2025?
So, yeah, like just startthinking of sleep like all these
other body rhythms, becauseit's a rhythm in your body and
things start to become moreintuitive.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I think one of the most important things that I
took out of sleep groove,without any doubt, was we have a
lot of people like we go outclubbing.
You know, people go outclubbing and they go to bed at
2am and they think, oh, I'lljust sleep until 10, then I've
got my eight hours sleep.
So that's good for me.
Liken this to the analogy ofanyone that's raising a child
(15:48):
like a teenager and theystruggle to get them up to go to
school Monday, tuesday, thenWednesday, thursday, friday.
They're in a rhythm, but thenit's the weekend and they don't
have to get up on Saturday.
So they sleep in late Saturday.
They sleep in late on Sundaybecause they're up late Friday
night.
They're up late Saturday andthen comes the problem on Monday
morning of trying to get themup late on Sunday because
they're up late Friday night.
They're up late Saturday andthen comes the problem on Monday
morning of trying to get themup and we all have this
Mondayitis.
Can you explain to us what'sactually occurred there for
(16:12):
Mondayitis, olivia?
For teenagers you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah for sure.
It's basically jet lag.
It's like for me if I were tofly three hours from New York to
California and the weekendthere and then fly back.
My body is on a later time zoneon Monday, and so all the fun
of jet lag you're experiencing,except you're 17 and you're
(16:37):
taking tests that will decideyour future.
Decide your future.
And so I think the key thinghere is you don't actually have
to cross time zones to get jetlagged because your body doesn't
know.
It's like, oh, I've crossedtime zones.
That's like a humanconstruction, but what it does
know is that your light exposurehas changed.
And so those teens, whenthey're staying up late on the
weekend, they're getting lightlater and they're missing light
(17:00):
in the morning.
So that's making it for theirbody Seeing those signals thinks
oh okay, I guess I've sort offunctionally changed time zones
and it shifts everything to belater.
So they're waking up Mondaymorning while there's a lot of
melatonin still in their body,which is the night hormone.
It's going to make them groggy.
It's going to again make it sothat like if they've got
important things going on,important tests, they're really
(17:23):
going to struggle.
And it's exactly like what aperson crossing countries would
feel if they were on a plane.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, that's fantastic, a great way of
explaining it.
And I think, with children, Ithink this is the great example
for adults for us to keep thisrhythm going ourselves, because
we do tend to get to Fridaynight and on Saturday we think,
oh no, I don't need to get upfor work tomorrow, so I'll sleep
in.
And I know now, I've kept thesame routine all the time and
(17:55):
it's easy for me because I'm notdoing shift work now myself.
But Tony, you're on night shiftand you now get into a routine
for those five nights and youget into a routine for those
five nights.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
It is a rhythm, yeah, and you get into a routine and
then you've got to come out ofit for Saturday and Sunday as
well.
In fact, arguably, it's moredifficult over the weekend when
you're not having to do that.
We'll come back to that in justa moment.
We'll do this break when wecome back.
If you have a question youwould like to put to Dr Olivia
Walsh, author, author of the newbook it's called Sleep Groove,
why your body clock is so messedup and what is it you can do
about it?
1-double-3-6-9-3.
(18:28):
We'll take your calls, happy todo that More.
The other side of this, rogeris here.
Roger Sullivan, you can catchup with Roger every couple of
weeks If you have a question youwould like to put to our very
special guest.
Dr Olivia Walsh is in the UnitedStates of America.
The book talks about.
Well, it's called Sleep Groove.
(18:48):
There's a couple of things,olivia, before Roger asks you
another question With the greataudience across Australia.
One of the common things thatpeople say quite more off air is
older members of community thatstruggle with overnight sleep.
A that is presumably a thing.
Is there anything that you cantalk about briefly that might
(19:12):
give them an idea of why, at acertain point in life, you
struggle to get the sort ofsleep you may have been able to
get when you were 25?
.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah for sure.
So I would say cetidianamplitude, which is basically as
you get older, your rhythms getflatter, you don't have as much
of a difference between daysand nights and sort of right off
the bat you can see why thatmight make you wake up more.
Your nights aren't as nighty,and so then you're more likely
to get woken up by somethingYou're not in as deep a sleep.
(19:46):
This is maybe related, justnaturally, to aging.
It could also be because youreyes get less sensitive to light
, like kids are super sensitiveto light, but older people tend
to be less sensitive.
And since light is what's goingto set your body's clock if
you're sort of older, set yourbody's clock, if you're sort of
(20:06):
older, outside getting light,but it's just not interpreted
the same way it used to, thenyou don't have as strong a day
signal saying hey, it's daytime,now time to be awake, which
means in 16 hours it's going tobe nighttime, time to be asleep.
And I've got another analogyrelated to this.
Are you up for like a somewhatgoofy analogy for when?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
people wake up, absolutely Please.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
All right, all right, strapping for this analogy.
Okay.
So imagine your brain like awater cooler, and when you're
awake it fills up and whenyou're sleeping it drains.
And it's got like a little tap.
You push to drain, like a sortof you push the button and water
comes out.
If you've ever been to abarbecue and you're filling up
your water bottle and it startsto get low to get more out of it
(20:54):
, you tilt it towards you, soyou tilt the water cooler
towards you and that way yourpour doesn't get interrupted.
You get a nice long pour.
So your body's clock does thistoo, where basically at night
it's tilted towards you to helpyou stay asleep.
You get this nice long pour out.
It doesn't drop below the levelof the tap and stop, and during
(21:16):
the day it's tilted away fromyou, so it's harder to fall
asleep and stay asleep.
Now you can still sleep ifyou're super tired during the
day.
The same way, you can still getwater out of a water cooler
that's super full but tiltedaway from you because it's so
full.
But what's going on with olderpeople is they don't have as
much of a tilt towards youduring the night, and so it's
(21:36):
like you're at the water cooler,you're pushing it, you're
getting your bottle filled upand then the water level falls
below the top and the the streamof water stops.
That's you waking up in themiddle of the night.
So what you can do to try andget around that?
Just get even more light duringthe day and even darker nights
and do the exact same thingevery single day.
(21:58):
Um, how's that?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
that's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
I'll tell you.
The thing that we've learned athome is I know we talk about
this all the time that yourroom's got to be pitch black to
sleep in.
But we at home are now turningeverything completely dark.
So we've got no LEDs, no light,no, nothing, no light around
(22:22):
the windows, close the bedroomdoor.
There is actually no lightpollution in the room at all and
it's pitch black.
And I applied the rule and Ispoke about it today on my
social media that if you holdyour hand in front of your face,
if you can see your hand, thenit's not dark enough in your
room If you can hold your handin front of your face and see
(22:43):
your hand.
And I found that since we'vedone that, my sleep is so much
better Really Within a week.
So much better straight awayand that pitch blackness.
But I'm also someone who getsup at 5.30, 6 o'clock every
morning and I hit the road and Igo out for a walk to get that
(23:04):
early light, to stimulate thatcircadian rhythm, so it knows
where it's at by nine o'clock.
I'm done by the end of the day,so I don't get that blue light
at night, but I'm done and thisis what the best lesson is in
Olivia for people to get earlylight early that daylight
outside, but then to cut thatblue light and make their
(23:24):
bedrooms pitch black at nightbecause that light.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Well, you can do it at night, but it's about
sleeping during the day for manyof us.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
It still needs to be pitch black.
It needs to be pitch blackDuring the day.
Yes, it does.
It needs to be pitch black.
That's right, isn't it Olivia?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, basically our brains are set up as people to
like, really get it.
If you get, like, hey, more ofa thing, you either get better
or worse.
But when it comes to light,what you need is more of a
rhythm.
You want the brightest lightyou can get during the bright
periods and the darkest dark youcan get during the dark periods
, because anything else is goingto make it.
(23:59):
So your days aren't as dayishas they need to be and your
nights aren't night dayish asthey need to be, and your, your
nights aren't nighty enough froma biological perspective and
you're going to have moreawakenings during the night.
And so, like I really thinkwe've forgotten what it's like
to to live outside of sort ofindustrial society.
(24:20):
But you go to a farm, you spendlike one night on a farm and,
yeah, you do the hand in frontof your face, test and you
remember, oh yeah, this is whatdarkness feels like.
We've really lost that inmodern society.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah, we talk about the.
Is it the Oklahoma study aswell, olivia, where they talk
about that?
They took the night owls andalso the morning larks out
camping where there was noelectronic devices, no light, no
nothing.
And these people were allhealthy.
But what they did was peoplesay, oh, I'm a night owl so I
can't go to sleep early, I justcan't because I don't.
(24:53):
And then you've got the morninglarks that go oh, I can't sleep
in, I wake up and get up.
When they took them camping andthey were in darkness, with no
access to any light pollution,no electronic devices or
anything, they all went to sleepand woke up within an hour of
each other, which shows you theimpact of light.
Correct, correct?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
No, it's true Like the sort of spread of
chronotypes before they wentcamping was really wide.
You had some people who lookedlike they were adjusted to going
to bed at like three or four inthe morning.
One week camping brought themback and all those super night
owls had vanished.
They looked sort of they werestill a little later, but they
(25:36):
weren't extreme.
And so it's not just sort ofyour genetics right, it's not
just what your DNA says, it'swhat you feed your system, and
the most important thing islight exposure, and most of us
are feeding ourselves a sort ofpoor light diet.
We're really not getting thedarkness we need during the
(25:56):
night and the light we needduring the day.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
But, in fairness, some people are very sensitive
to light though, aren't they,which can make them a later
chronotype.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, and this is actually a result from people
who are at Monash and now atFlinders.
Australia is full of amazingsleep scientists.
By the way.
What they did is they looked atpeople and saw how much light
it took to suppress theirmelatonin production.
So your body makes melatonin onits own and if you're in the
light it's like, hey, I guessthe sun's still out, I'm going
(26:25):
to not make as much melatonin,so it suppresses it.
And for some people it took 400lux, which is pretty bright, to
suppress their melatonin by half.
But for other people it onlytook 10 lux, which means you and
your spouse can be in the samehouse, like doing the same stuff
during the day, but have verydifferent reactions to dim light
(26:48):
.
And it's like that if we didn'tlive in an industrial society,
we wouldn't spend a lot of timegetting Like there's a pretty
fast transition, with sunriseand sunset, between darkness and
sun, like sunlight, like reallybright sun.
Um, but in in modern life thesun sets and then we we stay in
this yeah, low, but not that lowindoor level of light for hours
(27:12):
after the sun goes down.
Our bodies didn't evolve withthat and, as result, it can
really exaggerate thedifferences between two people.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, that's right.
And to talk about light insidea house, we're talking about 400
to 500 lux of light as normallighting inside a house, as
against the candle, which wouldbe about 10 lux, to give someone
an indication as to what thedifference is between those two
lights.
So some people are not assensitive to a candlelight,
others right up the top.
Thanks, olivia, really, reallyappreciate you coming on, olivia
(27:44):
.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Just a quick one from me, if I may.
The great breakfast team hereon this radio station 3AW in
Melbourne is Ross and Russ, andone of the things they often
talk about is having to go tobed early to do a breakfast
program, for which Ross has beendoing for many, many decades.
But he's learned over the yearsnot to look at the clock.
(28:05):
If he gets up at one or two, orin the middle of the night, if
you like, for whatever reason,not to look at the clock.
In other words, don't thinkabout the time until such time
as an alarm actually rings thatthen says it's time to get out
of bed for your job.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I like that and in particular, like you can't
control whether or not you wakeup, Like that's outside your
control, but you can control thelight exposure you get.
So I've shifted from thinking,oh, did I sleep good last night?
To more thinking, hey, did Iget a good dark last night?
Did I get good darkness?
(28:42):
And if I do, I'm pretty happy,even if I'm up for a couple
hours, which my kid.
I definitely was up for a fewhours during the night
approximately 11 months ago.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, I'll bet you were.
It's lovely to talk to you andI hope we have you as a guest on
the program another time.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
This was an absolute blast.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Dr Olivia Walsh.
Thank you, olivia, she's justfantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Oh, she's absolutely amazing and the book is good for
people that have just called in.
For anybody that wants to findthe book.
It's called Sleep Groove andit's why your body clock is so
messed up and what to do aboutit.
It's like a black-covered bookand it's got like a yellow sun.
It's about $30.
I know it's on Amazon.
You'll definitely find it onAmazon.
(29:27):
That's where I got mine.
And if people would like to wina copy of this book, if they go
to my social media, at aunderscore, healthy, underscore
shift on Instagram, I'm actuallyrunning a competition.
I'm giving away a copy ofOlivia's book at the moment.
So, at a underscore, healthy,underscore shift, go along there
(29:48):
and the competition is there.
You'll see the book and you'llsee the competition that's
running there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Very kindly.
Brian in Blackburn says amessage says the overnight
program, I don't get sick.
Well, that's just because of.
Says the overnight program, Idon't get sick.
Well, that's just because Ihave no reason why I don't get
sick.
I sometimes feel a little ill,I sometimes make others feel a
little ill, but so far, so good.
I think I did have one nightoff for some reason last year.
Yeah, I remember that.
(30:14):
I can't remember what thereason was now, but I did.
Thank you for that, brian.
Very kind of you to say We'lldo this break.
When we come back we can takeyour calls.
If you'd like to join us,you're more than welcome.
133-693.
It's Australia Overnight.
If you would like to be part ofit, you can jump on board
anytime.
When we talk about a topic thetopic it still means that you
(30:34):
can get through.
133693.
If you'd like to have your say,you can send a text as well,
and there are many, which ismost gratifying.
0477693.
G'day Tony McEnrodger.
Love the topic.
Would it help if you wouldsometimes wear a sleep mask to
bed, which I've never done,maybe?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I should.
Yes, maybe I should, definitelythe sleep mask.
And sleep masks have come along way now too, because
they've got like eye cups, soyou know, your fake eyelashes,
they won't actually.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
They won't touch the inside.
They won't touch the inside, sothey're very, very comfortable
for you, so I can leave them onwhile I'm sleeping.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You can leave them on while you're sleeping, tony,
yes, you idiot, no.
A sleep mask highly recommended.
I have found, when I was onnight shift with mine, that I
would roll over to grab my phoneto look at the time.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
When you were a police officer.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, when I was working.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Well, that's the point that and I keep talking
about the brekkie program hereon 3OW for other networks, other
radio stations.
Forgive me for that, but youcan apply it to breakfast teams
right across Australia, or TVprograms where people get up at
three and four o'clock in themorning, where you're in the cot
by eight or 8.30, you've got toget that rest because your
(31:46):
alarm goes off at three o'clockin the morning.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right.
And that dark restorative sleep.
That's why I say you say, oh, Ican't.
You know I'm sleeping duringthe day, so it's not dark.
Roll the blinds.
Face mask is the cheapestoption.
Put a face mask on pitch black.
I've rolled over and grabbed myphone and tried to look at my
(32:11):
phone and thought, oh, it's notworking.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You shouldn't look at your phone.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I want to know what time it is, whether I should get
up, but my mask was on, Ididn't know.
But that's what Ross is.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Don't look at the phone.
You don't need to look at thephone.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
That's if you've got to go back to sleep.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
Well, set the alarm.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, true.
Well, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Ross is all over it.
He is very much so, mary inAdelaide.
Hello, you're in the studiowith me, mary.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Roger.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Good morning Mary.
Speaker 6 (32:36):
First of all, is don't take your phone into the
bedroom.
There it is no television, nophone in your bedroom.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
That's just naughty.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
The bedroom Life will go on, roger and they will get
in contact with you later.
If it's really important, Icouldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I couldn't agree more .
Speaker 6 (32:53):
Your bed is for only three things.
I'm a nurse.
You read more.
Your bed is for only threethings.
I'm a nurse, I do shift work.
Well done, and I've been doingshift work for 30 years.
Oh my goodness me, well done.
I know.
God bless.
We're beautiful people, livingangels.
Yeah, thank you.
That's a very nice thing to say.
(33:14):
What I have discovered is thatdarkness is the most important
thing in the world for shiftworkers.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 6 (33:29):
Totally, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
What's your secret?
Speaker 6 (33:33):
I don't have the roller downs at my place because
I rent.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
But every now and then I spend some time at a
friend's place and they've gotroller down blinds on it.
And you know I'll go to bed andthink.
You know, the magpies are goingto start singing and I'll be
awake at six.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
Knowing that I've got to go through to two o'clock or
whatever the next morning andthey've got roller down blinds
and it's like I stand there inshock for about 15 minutes that
I've actually woken up at 10o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yep.
As to how dark it is.
It's the darkness.
Yes, it is.
It's the darkness.
Yes, it is.
I used to have a roller blindon mine and it makes such a big
difference.
No awareness of time at all,yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
It's very important.
Mary, it's lovely to talk toyou.
Thank you for being on theprogram.
I appreciate it.
You can as well.
You can join us anytime.
133693, 133693.
The other thing and we haven'treally canvassed it too much
this morning, but many talkabout the isolation of shift
workers.
(34:47):
Terrible.
Where you jump in the cot,you're there, family might be
doing other things, you mightmiss the run into school for
whatever reason, and then thatgoes to one member of the family
because you're in the cot by6.30 or 7.
So there's all sorts of thoseissues as well, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Mental health in shift workers is at a critical
time, particularly now, and Ithink one thing that we
completely lose sight of is theisolation away from family
friends being at work while ourpartners and that are
socialising, and that missingout on those sort of things, the
rotating shifts, now thatcircadian misalignment already
(35:26):
causes mental health issues tous already just by it being
misaligned with what is normaldiurnal, which is daytime,
nighttime, and I think one ofthe biggest problems that we
have is you're going to bed,your partner's not there, you're
up, your partner's in bed,you're at work, they're at a
(35:46):
social function, they're withfamily, so on and so forth.
It makes such a big differenceand an impact and you can't
catch up with just friends.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, and that is a challenge, particularly during
the week.
Pete, a quick comment.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
Yeah, guys, good evening.
I usually finish work aroundthe 4 o'clock.
I usually go to bed betweenquarter to 5.
Hopefully I'll wake up by 11.
I usually wake up around 10.30.
Yep, last Friday night Istarted work a lot earlier.
I finished work at 3 o'clock,woke up at 7 o'clock and brought
her to basketball.
Still had those five hours ofsleep Disaster.
(36:22):
Saturday and Sunday zombie.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Could not get off the couch, could not do anything.
Wife was going to kill me.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, there you go, which is part of the issue,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Peter, the big issue that you had there is see, this
is what Dr Olivia was justtalking about.
It's not about the quantity ofsleep, it's about the timing of
the sleep, and your timing wasout, so therefore your body was
totally confused.
Yeah, very confused.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Pete got to leave you there.
We'll do that.
We'll wrap it up.
The other side of this, themusic quiz.
On the way.
It is Australia Overnight.
A lovely little note from LeeForrest at 5AA who says what a
great song.
Hello Darkness, my Old Friend.
Yes, that's a classic.
There you go.
Thank you, paul Simon.
Sorry for all the text we justdidn't get to.
(37:06):
But many people saying how muchthey enjoyed that segment.
She was wonderful, your veryspecial guest.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Oh, fantastic, and if people are interested, I've got
plenty more that I can bring onto talk about topics like that.
We will do that, I promise you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Ahealthyshiftcom.
Have a look at the website.
Instagram At A underscorehealthy underscore shift and
that's where the opportunity towin Copy of that book.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
A copy of the Sleuth Group.
Thank you, see you nextfortnight.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
A couple of weeks time you.
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