[253] - Chloe Spring - It All Falls Apart If Management Don't Support It - A Healthy Shift

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The individual can only do so much within a poorly
designed structure.
Fatigue is a workplace safetyissue, Just like PPE.
This should be managed at theorganizational level Management.
They have access to changingaround the rosters, to breaking
policies and actually allocatingresources appropriately, Like
real change will happen upstream.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Shift work can be brutal, but it doesn't have to
be.
Welcome to A Healthy Shift.
My name is Roger Sutherland,certified Nutritionist, veteran
Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7Shift Worker for almost four
decades.
Through this podcast, I aim toeducate shift workers, using
evidence-based methods, to notonly survive the rigours of

(00:48):
shift work but thrive.
My goal is to empower shiftworkers to improve their health
and wellbeing so they have moreenergy to do the things they
love.
Enjoy today's show and welcomeback to another episode of a
Healthy Shift podcast, and todayI've brought on a guest, chloe

(01:10):
Spring.
Today is going to be somethingthat's completely different, as
far as it's still going to be.
Two people chatting haverealised that it's all well and
good for us to be able to putstrategies in place for shift
workers to actually optimisetheir lives inside and outside
shift work, but one of thebiggest problems that we do have

(01:33):
in today's day and age is thatat management level, it's being
destroyed, and this is somethingthat has to be addressed,
because, while I know I startedshift work 40 years ago, and
while I was doing that shiftwork, I was never educated as to

(01:53):
how to go about doing shiftwork.
Now that means that peoplearound that era and beyond, and
everybody else who's not beeneducated as to how to go about
doing shift work are progressingthrough the ranks and through
management levels withabsolutely no knowledge of how
to go about managing shiftworkers as well, because no

(02:16):
one's ever been taught and wealways hear the phrase oh, it's
what you signed up for.
Or toughen up, princess.
This is not good enough intoday's day and age, with the
science and the research that isaround Now.
Today I've got Chloe Spring on,who is a former emergency nurse
who's turned an entrepreneur,with a background in holistic

(02:36):
health, evidence-based coachingand a very deep understanding of
what it means to work odd hoursas a shift worker, and she is
currently on a mission toredefine how we support the
people who keep our worldrunning 24-7.
And this is really importantthat people start attacking and

(02:57):
supporting management toactually support their staff,
and the benefits are enormous.
So, without much further ado,let's introduce Chloe to the
show and hear what it is thatshe's got to say about what
management needs to be doing tosupport their staff.
Welcome to the show, chloeSpring.
How are you today, chloe?

Speaker 1 (03:18):
I'm amazing, Roger.
Thank you.
How are you?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
You are amazing.
I've been really excited to getyou onto this podcast today.
You and I are going to comefrom a completely different
angle today.
We've talked all about theshift workers, but now it's time
to look at the corporates andstart helping our shift working
community from a corporate level.
So we're going to bring someawareness to things that need to

(03:42):
occur in the corporateenvironment today.
But first of all, for thosethat don't know who you are,
chloe, can you tell us a bitabout your background, from an
emergency nurse to where you aretoday?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Firstly, just thank you so much for even having this
platform.
Thank you for bringing me on.
I love that we both have thisskin in the game right, we both
live that experience.
So me, I've lived the emergencynursing experience.
I've done it for many, manyyears.
So I've done all the nightshifts, exposure to trauma, the
long hours.

(04:14):
I've done all of that.
I've lived all that.
And personally, I went in thereto help people.
I wanted to bring peoplethrough the worst day of their
life so they can get to thisamazing end result.
But in doing so, I found thatmy own health became a detriment
.
I was putting aside my ownneeds and my own values to help

(04:36):
others, and I think a lot ofpeople can resonate with that.
So I got to a point where I waslike, okay, this is not it.
I'm not showing up for myself,I'm not showing up for my
colleagues, I'm not showing upfor the patients, so I need to
change.
So I dove deep into all theseways that I could actually heal
myself and I discovered, likefunctional medicine and

(04:57):
circadian science, holisticpractices, and I incorporated
all these things to then get myown amazing results.
Like these results weren't evengood for a shift worker.
Like it was amazing, even justfor the gen pop person.
Like I was competitive andperforming really well in sports
.
I was showing up to my shiftsof energy with life.

(05:17):
My quality of life was amazingand before I knew it, I had all
of these people that wereworking around me asking how did
you get that, chloe, how didyou get that body, how do you
have so much amazing energy whenyou rock up to work and why do
you always have a smile on yourface?
So I really wanted to jump intohelping those people.

(05:37):
I was like huh, I know how todo this and I know how to do it
well, I can help you guys aswell.
So I joined up with theAustralian Women's Fitness
Academy and dived into thecoaching realm and that was
great.
But now I'm on this mission toalso help organizations now
support their staff throughproject development and
essentially personalized healthstrategies.

(05:59):
It kind of summarizes what I'mdoing.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
So that's what's drawn you into the world of
holistic health andevidence-based coaching,
especially for our shift workingcommunity.
You touched on this and Ireally would like to just back
over this particular point,because clearly you are that
girl at work.
You're the one that everyonelooks at and goes.
How does she do it?
How can she look that amazing?
How come she's smiling?

(06:23):
How come she's got so muchenergy?
How come she has a body likethat?
How come she can get to the gymand walk and do all of those
sort of things?
You're that person, aren't you,Chloe?

Speaker 1 (06:34):
I did become that person unintentionally, just
through my own health journey.
To be honest, initially in myemergency nursing career I
wasn't that person.
I didn't even recognize myself.
I didn't have much drive.
Shifts were really hard, it wasreally hard to put a smile on
your face, but after the workthat I did it was just easy to
show up that way and I guess youwould know this as well, roger,

(06:55):
when you're exuding that energyto attract that back, like
people want a bit of that,people want a bit of that light
that you're giving.
So yeah, I did find that a lotof people did approach me with
that.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
So tell me, how long were you an emergency nurse for?

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, so I've around six years.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Okay, now, before you started emergency nursing, how
would you consider your life andlifestyle up until you started
nursing?

Speaker 1 (07:19):
I love that question.
So before nursing I was stillthat person that wanted to give
a lot to everyone.
I was always the person thatpeople would come to for advice.
I was very active before shiftwork and before nursing, so I
guess you could say I was anadrenaline junkie.
I was always looking forcompetitive sports and how I can
push the boundaries.

(07:40):
I think a lot of people in thefrontline arena are similar.
We're all a little bit.
A little bit.
I don't even know how you woulddescribe that.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
I totally agree with that.
The point that I wanted to makewith that is that's how you
were before you started shiftwork.
Now talk about how long it tookand the changes that occurred
to Chloe Spring through shiftwork.
What impact did shift work haveon you in your energy levels,
your health, your weight?

(08:11):
How much more difficult it wasfor you to train, for you to
just put that smile on your face.
Where did you recognize that?
You totally lost yourself whenyou reflected back and went.
I've completely lost myselfhere.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
It was really quick.
It was within the first year ofnursing as a graduate Just
coming out into the field, justcompletely naive, to the bodily
changes that you experience aswell.
Like, as you know, with nightshifts and repetitive trauma
exposure, your body starts toadapt that way, like your
insulin sensitivity becomesskewed, your metabolic health

(08:44):
becomes skewed, your sleep-wakecycles completely erratic.
So yes, of course I was holdinga bit more weight around my
stomach, I was sluggish in themiddle of the day when the sun
is shining and I didn't have anydrive to do anything.
That all came on very quickly.
So to that point as well, Iguess that's where we see staff
retention issues, right is?

(09:05):
This is a young, fresh nursethat hasn't even been in the
field for very long and I wasalready starting to feel the
consequences of shift work, andthis was in the first few months
education did you have given toyou about how to go about

(09:29):
optimizing your life aroundshift work from your employer or
your uni degree, or whatever itis that you actually did to get
there?
I'm scratching my head.
Honestly.
If I wasn't the way that I wasbefore, I don't know if I would
have even dived into it further.
I cannot recall any informationthat was actually provided to
me to help me work through theseissues.
A lot of it came fromconversations with other people

(09:52):
and, like I said, through my ownwork as well.
Like I seeked out dieticiansand worked alongside them, I
seeked out coaches, workedalongside them, and that was
only because of my own drive todo so, only because I compared
myself to what I was previously.
But not everyone has thatluxury either.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Now you look back.
After you look back, you'vegone.
Who is this?
Today, I'm completely losingmyself.
Now I know a lot of people, alot of clients, and you coach
clients as well and you haveconversations with them, and we
get to the stage where ourclients say to us, oh, this is
just shift work.
And we get to the stage whereour clients say to us, oh, this
is just shift work.
And this is a misconception,isn't it?
It doesn't have to be that way.

(10:28):
With what we are going to talkabout today, this is the issues
that we need to address.
So now you, within 12 months orso, chloe recognizes she's
completely lost herself.
But you had that realisticmoment where you've gone.
I've lost myself here.
I need to do something aboutthis.
So you did.
You showed up as the personthat you needed to have educated

(10:51):
you at the time, so you startededucating yourself.
I can guarantee you that 40years ago, when I started shift
work, I was definitely nottaught how to go about doing
shift work.
I learned from the other peopleand when it was very difficult,
I was just told this is whatyou signed up for.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
It is a common misconception, right yeah, that
fatigue is just part of the job,that you know, you manage it on
an individual level, and justto toughen it up, oh my goodness
Remember it was almost like thehazing days, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (11:31):
When the young nurse comes in and then the old nurses
.
You just got to toughen it up.
It's just a classic gas line,and all of our supervisors,
managers, do it to their staffon the daily.
They just gaslight them bysaying this is what you signed
up for.
Toughen up, princess.
And that's what we get, and Ithink this is where we go wrong.
Now, what were some of thebiggest challenges that you, as
Chloe Spring, face personally?
Like it has an impactbiologically and no secret.

(11:52):
You're a female as well and Iknow for a fact that shift work
impacts a lot more heavily onfemales than it does on males,
and it's why I really favor myfemale clients and try and
support my females as much as Ipossibly can because of those
impacts.
But for you yourself, chloe,that 12 months, what was some of
the biggest challenges that youwere facing yourself?

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Why do I start?
It's a massive list, especiallylike the initial stages, and
thank you so much for bringingup even the women perspective as
well.
Like I definitely myselfexperienced hormonal dysfunction
.
So whether it came frominconsistent cycles, mood swings
like the weight fluctuations aswell, that was definitely
something that I battled with asa woman and that was incredibly

(12:37):
difficult.
That also obviously came intothe emotional dysregulation like
that affected my social life.
I always felt isolated from therest of the world and of course
, then my personal relationshipsas well felt that strain,
especially with those moodswings Like you get so irritable
and everyone knows night shiftdepression.
Oh yeah, we've all been there.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Your libido crisis because you're just too tired.
Everything just completelyfalls apart.
For our poor ladies, dealingwith an infradian rhythm on top
of a dysregulated circadianrhythm is just a nightmare for
them.
Now you touched on thisirregular cycle which causes
your problems.
Your hormonas are up and down,which impacts on your mood,

(13:19):
impacts on your hormonalreleases.
You didn't even mention gasbloating, digestive issues that
you suffer from.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Oh, the gut issues.
We've all done the distendedstomach on night shifts.
You'd have these foodsensitivities that would just
come and go.
They were so erratic.
Yeah, the gut issues were awful.
And just being constantlyfatigued, I think that was the
biggest one.
Right, you'd sleep for as longas you can, but no matter how
much sleep you got, you cannever make back that sleep debt.

(13:46):
You're always waking up tired,always waking up exhausted.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
We know from research that females need more sleep
than males need as well, so itdoes impact.
Right now.
This is going to bring us toour next point, and this is
where we get into it.
So you and I both haveincredibly lived experience in
the shift working world, so weget it from the employee.
I was lucky because I was at amanagement level, so I can talk

(14:12):
about it to look at it from acompany perspective as well as
look at it from an employeeperspective as well.
So I'm quite lucky there.
Now, because we want to talkabout the bigger picture here as
to what we're doing.
You've coached numerous clients, and so have I.
You say we need to radicallyshift how we support our shift
workers.
So what does that look like inyour eyes?

Speaker 1 (14:32):
To me that would look like moving away from being
reactive and becoming proactive,so actually addressing burnout
before it happens.
We can prevent it, like if weintegrate health into the
workplace culture, completelyshift that culture, so making
nutrition, recovery, movementall productivity tools rather

(14:55):
than a personal luxury.
I think the fact that it is soindividual we touched on women,
for example that is soindividual.
But we're not even touching onthe fact that people have lives
outside of shift work as well,like they have to obviously deal
with the trauma and thecircadian misalignment, but on
top of that they also havelifestyle factors as well that

(15:16):
implement into all of this.
So there is a lot that goesinto it.
Health should not just be seenas a side project.
This is central to retention,this is essential to safety, to
the staff's long-term wellbeing.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Me personally.
I think, looking at what I'velooked at over the last five
years with the research aroundshift work, we had a
conversation prior to thispodcast starting and I said, if
I had my way, all 24-7 shiftworking environments would be
stripped down and rebuilt as a24-7 environment.
And the reason why I say thisis because we used to be eight

(15:52):
to four Monday to Friday.
Take policing and nursing outof it, but we're now up to
around about somewhere between18 and 22% of society as shift
workers now by definition.
And I think, if we look at westarted at eight to four Monday
to Friday, nine to five, andthen we we had late night
shopping on Fridays, and then itwas late night shoppings on
Thursdays and Saturday morningsand then it went to Saturday

(16:16):
afternoon, sundays.
Now it's night shift andprivate industry.
All we're doing is packingpeople into this 24-7
environment.
We're just pushing them in.
We need that shift filled.
You can do that.
We need that shift filled, rog.
You do that.
We need a day shift filled,chloe, you can do that.
And we just are packing peopleinto it with zero thought given

(16:36):
to fatigue management aroundrostering to start off with
about when do we start them?
How much time do we give themafter night shifts?
How many nights should they bedoing?
What's the best rotation tocope with night shifts, et
cetera.
And we don't do this.
What we do is we're justpushing them in and we are
literally and I mean this quitecategorically, we are literally

(16:57):
killing our shift workers.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Like you said, there's no preventative
strategies there None.
We'll just push them in andthen see what the consequences
are there preventativestrategies there?
None, it's all, just push themin and then see what the
consequences are.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
There may be things in place after oh, that's right.
After fact, well, kind of onceI've broken you, they just
discard you out on the trash andthen they're looking for
another one to get in and do itnow.
I could go down that line awhole lot, but you're the guest
and we'll let you talk about,because we'll go down the rabbit
hole.
We'll go down the rabbit hole.
I could literally go down thisrabbit hole, and it's an

(17:28):
important rabbit hole to go downas well.
It's no good saying that you'vegot the strategies in place to
fix people afterwards.
Why do you need thosestrategies in place to fix
people afterwards if you're notactually putting preventative
measures in place to preventthem from getting there A
hundred percent?
And now we talk about, inparticular, policing and nursing
, where there's a mass exodusfrom both of those employers at

(17:51):
the moment mass, right.
A lot of nurses are leaving, alot of police are leaving and
they're just bringing people inwho aren't going to be there in
five years' time.
That's another conversation initself.
Now, why do you believe thatshift worker health needs to be
addressed at management leveland not left solely onto the
individual?
We have to be responsible forourselves, like you were.

(18:12):
But why do you believe thatshift worker health needs to be
addressed at the managementlevel?

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Look, the system creates the conditions right.
Like we said, the individualcan only do so much within a
poorly designed structure.
Fatigue is a workplace safetyissue, just like PPE.
This should be managed at theorganizational level Management.
They have access to changingaround the rosters, to breaking
policies and actually allocatingresources appropriately.

(18:39):
Like real change will happenupstream, I guess if we support
the workforce, you'll also seehigher retention, reduced sick
leave and less fatigue-relatederrors as well.
It's a win for both the shiftworkers, but also for management
as well.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
I think we should just finish the podcast right
there, because I think that'sexactly what you said there.
We need to make sure thatthat's the situation that occurs
, moving forward right, becausewhat we're doing is we're
pushing people into theseenvironments, but management has
the power to actually fix a lotof these problems, because

(19:17):
shift workers are working towhat the management are actually
pushing out and they have thepower to change that.
So what are the common out?
And they have the power tochange that.
So what are the commonmisconceptions that managers
have?
Because managers are sittingthere, you've got to remember
that you, as a nurse, became ashift worker with zero education
, so you, if you stayed in yourprofession, you would have

(19:38):
become a manager, still with noeducation at all.
So what do you believe that thecommon misconceptions are that
managers or organizations stillhave at the moment when it comes
to actually supporting shiftworkers?

Speaker 1 (19:51):
We kind of touched on it before that fatigue is
managed at an individual level.
I was lucky enough to actuallybe able to have the awareness in
the inside at that time, but ifnot, then I would have failed.
I still would have been in thatfield, which would have led me
to burnout.
For instance, my clients right,so I can give them all the
recommendations.
I can give them recommendationsfor every single shift and they

(20:13):
could follow it and execute itto a T.
But if they then rock up towork and they get allocated to a
high stress environment whenthey are showing signs that they
should actually be recovering,then there's nothing we can do
there.
Or they get put in a positionwhere they then have to do
overtime but they should berecovering.
These are all things that couldbe mitigated at a management

(20:36):
level, not an individual level.
There's only so much they cando, even if they really wanted
to.
But also, like we alluded tobefore, they might not have the
awareness, they might not evenhave the education to carry that
out.
How do you expect theseexhausted people to be able to
take on fatigue management whenthey are more exhausted than the
general population?

(20:57):
These people aren't going to goseek further education.
They're just trying to survive.
They're not trying to thrive atthis point.
So we need to provide that forthem, we need to make it easier
for them, we need to give themthe recommendations to actually
be able to follow this through.
And just because they're notspeaking up does not mean that
they're fine.
I think that that's a big thingas well is that if we have this

(21:18):
quiet cohort, they're doingtheir work, it's all well and
good, but they are suffering insilence.
They're doing their work, it'sall well and good, but they are
suffering in silence.
I know there is a lot of stigmaout there that is causing shift
workers not to speak up becausethey're still trying to tough
it out.
There is still that culturethere.
So if management are justwaiting until someone sings out
to them, it's not going tohappen anytime soon until it's

(21:39):
too late.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Now that point there that you've just made is a
really, really solid point,because they are just toughing
it out.
Management are telling themthis is what you signed up for.
Toughen up, princess.
So they feel like that is thecase.
And I think that's one of thebiggest misconceptions, because
I know when I first startedshift work 40 years ago in my

(22:00):
job, there was no way known wasit anywhere near as difficult as
it is now.
And there are even more shortstaff now coping with a bigger
workload and more issues and, asyou said, they're exposed to
the trauma.
Now you as a coach and me as acoach can put all of the perfect
principles and science in placefor an employee.
We can help them.
We can say to them right, thisis what you need to do 100%, you

(22:23):
need to go about it and this iswhat you do.
See you later, see you nextweek, because you'll be
absolutely crushing it.
And then they come back and sayI had to do a double shift
yesterday and I had to doovertime this day and oh, I had
to work ED and then I had to dothis and it was causing us all
sorts of problems and it doesn'twork, of problems and it

(22:46):
doesn't work.
It just simply doesn't work.
So we end up with a lot ofproblems around that, and
therein lies our massive problemfrom a management level that we
need to rectify, and I don'tknow what the solution is,
because they're so short staffbut they won't spend the money
to save the money for all oftheir staff.
Let's talk about health advice.
A lot of managers will look attraditional health advice and
you and I know it's justirrelevant.

(23:08):
And why is that actuallyineffective, or can it even be
harmful for our shift workers?

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Most of the health advice out there is for a nine
to five lifestyle.
Right.
It's for a stable circadianrhythm.
It's for regular meal timing.
It's for consistent sleepcycles.
That's not our shift workers.
We're telling shift workers tosleep eight hours.
Eat dinner at 6pm, go to bed by10pm that's not their life.
It's not just irrelevant, it'sactually shaming.

(23:35):
This is creating guilt, it'screating confusion.
Often it's creating worsehealth outcomes.
Right?
Some of the standardizedpractices like fasting for some
shift workers, training to acertain calendar week and like
you're not allowed a snackovernight or anything like that,
like some of these things, cancause adrenal stress.
It can cause blood sugarcrashes and the mood instability

(23:58):
, like the struggles that thesepeople have to go through just
because they're trying to fitthis box.
These are people that want toexcel.
These are people that areputting themselves in
environments that push the humanform.
They want to do well, they wantto perform well, but they're
giving these recommendationsthat don't even suit their
structure.
I'm really passionate aboutthese topics.
I realise I'm yelling a lot atyou, roger.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
No, no, it's your passion and environment.
That's the most important thing.
I think what we also need to bevery mindful of is the science
that applies to the nine tofiver as a general rule doesn't
apply to a shift worker, and weneed to have guidelines.
We need people like yourself,like myself, out there,
educating the shift worker notto say this is what you got to

(24:40):
do, or shame, shame, shame.
But this is what the sciencetells us and this is why.
So, if a female comes to me andsays to me I'm putting on
weight, I'd say to them oh, youneed to be in a calorie deficit.
But the problem that we have iswe end up with situations where
they are on their night shift,eating overnight, even though
their calories are equated, butwe don't metabolize and score

(25:02):
calories the same way.
I will say to you optimally, wefast overnight, but then I'm
going to make recommendations asto the best way to go about
doing that as well, so thatpeople are still fueled and
lasting overnight.
That's one of the biggestproblems that we actually have
in today.
We can't apply it.
When they say you can eat itafter eight o'clock, it doesn't

(25:23):
make any difference.
I think that's dangerous in ourshift working world, because I
think if our shift workers areeating after 8, 9 o'clock at
night, the science is changingaround this in a very, very big
way and we learned that oncemelatonin is elevated, we don't
actually metabolize and storenutrients the same way and in
fact, our BMR can be reduced by200, 250 calories overnight.

(25:45):
No, they need to factor that in.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Look at the nursing stations they don't.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
You're not supposed to add 2,000 calories.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Oh no, but how would you know?
Unless you looked into thisright?
Because, like I just said, anurse's station you knew exactly
what I was talking about,because that is a cultural
expectation that you smackovernight.
This is not just aboutproviding education.
It's providing awareness as towhy this is not the best idea
and why we need to change thisculture.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Researchers are working hard on particularly
this area around police stations, fire stations and nursing
stations.
I know that nurses have drawersthat have all the chocolates
and the lollies and everythingelse that goes into it, because
the patient's families arebringing them in saying, oh,
you've done a great job lookingafter Nan.
Thanks very much.

(26:33):
Here's a box of chocolates.
No one ever brings a platter offruit, do they?

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Exactly Where's our complex carbs?
Where's our protein?

Speaker 2 (26:41):
We don't get that.
This is the problem.
We've identified that we've gotto be careful.
What I would tell a nine tofive client compared to what I
need to tell to a shift workingclient can be quite detrimental.
There are people who have highenergy jobs that need fuel
overnight as well.
So we can't say to them here'sthe blanket.
You got to fast, you got to dothis or you can't do that Now.

(27:04):
So how can our leaders in theseareas, our managers, start to
tailor health and wellbeingsupport to meet the needs of
their 24-7 teams?

Speaker 1 (27:14):
We have been touching on it right, Like education,
education, education, but notjust giving them the blanket
terms, not just copying the nineto five wellness programs, but
just providing the awareness asto why, Like start teaching them
circadian science, startteaching them hormonal timing,
recovery cycles, like all ofthese amazing things to actually
allow people to understand whyit's important not just for

(27:37):
their performance but their ownwellbeing and longevity.
And personalizing support, likethe information that the
individual can actually givemanagers will provide the best
course of action, because notone size fits all right.
And also that culture shift,like normalizing recovery as
part of the job.
It's about giving staff thatvoice.

(27:59):
It's about, like the wellnesscheck-ins like once every six
months on a wellness day, butlike running it regularly,
allowing them to be able tovoice consistently hey, I'm
struggling and this is why.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
I think the first thing they need to do is ask the
question of experts in the area.
I honestly believe that healthand wellbeing and HR in
organisations that are 24-7environments need to ask the
question of experts in the area.
This is my workplace.
What is there that I canactually do?
How can I support my staffInstead of sitting there

(28:35):
thinking you know how to do itright, because this is one of
the biggest problems that wehave.
There's organisations, there'speople out there, there's
yourself, there's myself.
There's the University ofQueensland that are doing great
work in this area as well.
The managers need to beapproaching.
It's no good us going andknocking on doors saying we can
help you because they're closedmind.
They won't do it.

(28:56):
They just won't, but I thinkhigher up, they need to be
looking at it.
My answer to that wouldliterally be ask the question.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Ask the question.
Ask the right people thequestion.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Ask the right people the question.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Ask your staff and then ask the experts in the
field as well.
It's not a do-it-yourselfproject.
You don't have to have all theanswers as management.
That's why you outsource,that's why you bring people in
to educate your staff.
That's why you create thatawareness.
I'm saying teach them all this.
I'm not saying you, as themanager, have to teach them.
There are so many people atyour door knocking to say I want
to help.

(29:29):
Let them in.
Let them teach your staff.
You'll see the results.
You'll save a lot of moneydoing so too.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
What does a culture of recovery look like in a shift
working environment?
I guess we've probably touchedon that to start off with, but
if I ask the question, they'vegot to get the experts in.
They've got to spend the moneyon it to save the money, don't
they?

Speaker 1 (29:47):
I guess if they see recovery as a priority just as
much as the KPIs, that's whenthey're going to reap the
benefits of both.
They both help each other too.
But it's about shifting thatmindset into oh, we just need to
hit these KPIs, hit thesetargets to oh, this will
actually help increase the KPIs.
Open your mind.
You said it before.
Don't be so closed-minded.

(30:08):
It's as simple as that.
Open your mind to.
There are other ways that youcan actually help your staff,
but also help your organizationas well.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Spot on.
If a manager is listening rightnow, where would you ask them
to start?

Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think the unions are a good place to start as
well.
Like a lot of them, have a lotof people in the space or even
links to experts in the field aswell, so you can bring on them,
because they're always going tohave the staff's wellbeing at
the forefront of their mind.
But yeah, just go into theseconferences as well.
People like yourself, likeyou're always educating at these
places and these big stages.

(30:41):
Go see what they're talkingabout, see if that could be
implemented in your ownworkforce as well.
I think if you just listen tothe people that are knocking on
the door, that are asking tohave meetings with workplace
health and safety, that aretrying to enforce this new
legislation, if you just sitdown and listen to them, they
can actually provide you withsome really amazing
recommendations.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
And simple.
That's a really good answer.
I hope you're enjoying the show.
If you are, please don't forgetto rate and review once you've
finished.
This helps the show's reachenormously.
And have you got my free ebookthe Best Way to Eat on Night
Shift?
Well, this is a comprehensiveguide to the overnight fast, why

(31:20):
we should fast and how to bestgo about it.
I've even included a fewrecipes to help you.
I've put a link to the ebook inthe show notes.
And are you really strugglingwith shift work and feel like
you're just crawling from oneshift to the next?
Well, I've got you.
If you would like to work withme, I can coach you to thrive,

(31:41):
not just survive, whileundertaking the rigours of 24-7
shift work.
I also conduct in-house livehealth and wellbeing seminars
where I will come to yourworkplace and deliver
evidence-based information tohelp your wellbeing team to
reduce unplanned leave andincrease productivity in your
workplace.

(32:01):
I've put the links in the shownotes to everything mentioned.
You can find me atahealthyshiftcom or on Instagram
at a underscore healthy,underscore shift.
Now let's get back to the show.
You've worked in emergency careyourself, so let's just
transfer a little bit across,because this is a really

(32:22):
important topic as well.
So you've just transfer alittle bit across, because this
is a really important topic aswell.
So you've worked in emergencycare and understand trauma
firsthand.
How does unresolved traumaaffect shift workers long-term?

Speaker 1 (32:30):
So long-term exposure with trauma is seen physically
and mentally.
Especially as someone inemergency services, I routinely
face high stress and traumaticincidences and over time this
does take a toll on your mentaland physical health.
So, mental wise, the mostcommon we see is burnout, like
that's a state of physical,mental and emotional exhaustion.

(32:54):
This is all caused by prolongedstress.
It's overwhelming fatigue, it'sdetachment.
It's the person that has areduced sense of accomplishments
.
It often overlaps withcompassion fatigue.
So you see those people thatrock up to their shift and
they're completely numb to anytraumatic incident, that's the
person with burnout.
It's actually reallyinteresting.

(33:15):
I did see that up to about 50%of medical staff, especially
since COVID, has some sort ofsigns of burnout.
That is massive.
That is a major health concern.
Imagine 50% of the workforcerocking up, being completely
numb, being completely checkedout.
These are the people that areleaving work early.

(33:36):
These are the people thatyou're not retaining.
I do also want to touch on aswell, especially with prolonged
trauma exposure, is there arehigher rates of stress-related
conditions in especiallyfrontline workers than there is
the general population.
So there was some large surveysdone in Australia with
emergency services and roughlyone-third of them actually

(33:57):
reported high psychologicaldistress, and this one blew my
mind.
About 10% of frontline workersshowed some sort of form of PTSD
.
That is compared to the generalpopulation at about 4%, that is
a massive difference.
And these are the people thathave intrusive memories.
They have night terrors,hypervigilance, avoidance they

(34:19):
can all impair daily functioning, let alone high risk work.
It also normally co-occurs withthings like anxiety, depression
, even substance misuse as well.
I've actually never shared thison a platform as well, but I
can also really relate to this.
In recent years I myself wasactually diagnosed with ptsd

(34:39):
following two consecutivetraumatic events.
I went from this bubbly personIf anything, I was a bit too
happy when it came to traumaticincidences.
I was the person that youwanted in a recess room.
I got the job done.
I put a smile on your face, allhappy, go lucky.
And then just one day I justsnapped and I couldn't go into

(35:00):
the hospital ground withouthaving panic attacks.
I started to isolate myself.
I was very fortunate that I wasactually able to access
psychology and work through allof that and have been able to
triumphantly get on the otherside.
But I know firsthand that it canhappen to anyone Like.
If it can happen to me, it canhappen to anyone out there, and

(35:20):
I was someone who was so aware.
That's only the mental part ofit, like the physical body has a
massive response to ongoingtrauma as well.
So, for instance, ongoingexposure to trauma can also
manifest in the physical body,not just the mental.
So you're completely out ofwhack.
Your autonomic nervous systemis completely dysfunctional, so

(35:44):
you're in a constant fight orflight state.
Ptsd patients.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Let me just help you a little bit here, because I'm
someone who's been diagnosedwith PTSD, anxiety and
depression myself, and I thinkit becomes your new normal.
But you don't realize just howdysfunctional you actually are
as a person.
Is that fair?

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, 100%.
I think even just the physicalparts of it as well were
completely surprising to me.
Your heart rate becomeselevated, your HRV is constantly
low, your body gives you signsthat you are emotionally
struggling, that you're mentallystruggling.
These people that areconstantly exposed to trauma,

(36:24):
they have cardiac strain.
These are the people that endup with hypertension, with heart
disease.
This isn't something that isjust a mental diagnosis and you
deal with that in therapy.
These are things that, if theycontinue to be unaddressed, they
can actually manifest into realphysical problems.
Early death that's wild andthat's just from constant trauma
exposure.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Fortunately, though and I'll say this to you in the
role as a nurse, working inemergency care, and also in
police and paramedics and fireand those type of roles, we are
going to be exposed to trauma,and it's unavoidable because we
are the people that have to dealwith that trauma.

(37:05):
But what we do need and this iswhere I'll step in and just
help you out here is we need tohave strategies and tools in
place to continually bringourselves back from that trauma
exposure.
We're going to be exposed to itall the time, and that's
unavoidable.
But one of the things that wedo need to do and the fortunate

(37:28):
thing that we have in these jobsand I mean the really fortunate
thing that we have in thesejobs you can be moved out of
that department and go toanother department.
In the police, you can be movedout of that area and go to
another.
As a paramedic, you can bemoved into an office or go to
another area as well.
What management needs to bedoing?
They need to be vigilant andwatching these people who are

(37:49):
struggling.
Now I want to make anobservation, which is something
that I learned.
I'm up and about.
I was always happy and smilingand everything was really good.
That can be depression, becausewhat happens is you are in
avoidance of actually dealingwith it, because I remembered
that I was diagnosed withdepression and I went me Roger,

(38:11):
no way, I'm not diagnosed withdepression.
You don't even know what you'retalking about.
And when it was actuallyflagged with me high-functioning
depression I understood that.
What happens is you deal witheverything that you've got to do
within your job, but then youdistract yourself outside of the
job by being thishappy-go-lucky, up-and-about
type of person that is alwaysdealing with stuff and being

(38:34):
busy and everything else.
From the outside to everybodyelse, it goes oh my God, this
Roger, he's doing fantastic,he's doing really well.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
It's interesting, even when you're talking about
the symptoms and experiencesthat you were going through,
Roger.
They sound very similar toburnout, which goes hand in hand
with shift work.
It's almost like we're just ona track to go towards burnout or
depression, whatever you wantto title it.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
You can call it burnout.
There's different levels ofstress and I think if we look at
if you were to listen to thepodcast that I did with Dr
Michelle Finneran how she talksabout the different stages and
then she gets all the way downto compassion fatigue, is worse
than burnout.
You get to burnout and then youcross over into compassion
fatigue and once someone andparticularly nurses, oncology

(39:19):
nurses and emergency departmentnurses can really be diagnosed
with compassion fatigue andthat's really bad.
That's not just bad, that isreally bad.
That's beyond burnout,compassion fatigue.
You've got to get help, andreally urgent help around
compassion fatigue and our poornurses do really, really suffer
from this, in particular, nurses, police.

(39:41):
I can see how police getcompassion fatigue.
Now you might think, oh, wedon't nurses police.
I can see how police getcompassion fatigue.
Now you might think, oh, wedon't care for patients.
But I can tell you, answeringphone call after phone call,
from moron after moron, you doget to the stage where you just
don't care anymore.
You've done everything that youcan possibly do, you've gone
beyond burnt out.
You're now in compassionfatigue state and I think that's
something that we do need.

(40:02):
But this is where I say andI've just recorded a podcast
with an actual policepsychologist about what to look
for in your colleagues.
Don't look for the person that'smiserable and sad.
Look for the person that'shappy and up and about and keep
an eye on them, because they maybe the depressed one, which is
really, really important.
Let's pivot off that.
You often talk about trainingfor resilience right, and I've

(40:25):
seen you training for resilienceas well.
So how does building physicalresilience help to protect us
against burnout and our energycrashes?
Because you would think,exercise, burning more energy
it's going to make me worse.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Essentially, I see physical resilience as your
body's ability to just recoverfrom stress.
So, whether that is a workout,a tough shift or a critical
incident, it's more like stressinoculation, right?
Like training your body tohandle controlled stress so that
you become more adaptable.
Then, when real life chaos hits, you're prepared.
I saw recently right that shiftworkers are expected to die 10

(41:04):
to 15 years earlier.
Like, our bodies are notdesigned to do shift work.
That's it.
So if there was some sort ofway that we could train for
shift work to be able tomitigate those negative effects
of shift work, then why wouldn'twe do it Like?
That's what I see training as.
That's why I implement itpersonally for my clients,
because it's not about theaesthetics, it's about allowing

(41:27):
them to become physicallyresilient so they're fit for
their shift.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, very good Fit for shift is super important for
everyone, because I know,listening to some of the clients
and some of the people that youno doubt talk to as well, which
are women, middle-aged women,who have really got to the stage
where they've almost given upbecause they know that they
can't do anything at all and, oh, if only they understood it's

(41:52):
baby steps and turning thingsaround that can really make a
massive difference in their life.
Reigning for that and alsogoing back to our managers,
management, hr need to beapproaching places that do
fatigue management, that canlook at their rosters and
structure their rosters andstructure their environments so

(42:12):
that they do optimally survivein this shift working world.
Majority of research that'sbeen done on shift workers has
been done with lack of educationfor the shift worker.
But what I love is what I'mseeing at the moment is more and
more researchers.
I'm lucky because I use myplatform to talk to researchers

(42:33):
to get their research out intothe field so that people learn
and understand it, becauseotherwise it just sits in a
journal gathering dust on ashelf, and we don't want that.
We want it out right.
So what I do now is I talk tothese researchers, find them,
talk to them, get theinformation out there.
I honestly believe that in yearsto come 10, 20, 30 years there

(42:55):
will be more shift workers,because we're one in five now.
It could be one in four movingforward.
In certain countries in theworld it is more than one in
four already.
But we're in a position nowwhere we need to educate
environments on how to go aboutit, from management level which
is the whole core of thisconversation to fatigue manage

(43:16):
so that their KPIs are being metfrom a different angle, so that
you're actually putting yourstaff turning up, they're not
off on unplanned leave orextended leave, are being met
from a different angle, so thatyou're actually your staff
turning up, they're not off onunplanned leave or extended
leave or burnt out or stressedor on work cover or they've had
an accident in the workplace oryou've lost staff because they
can't cope with it or thingslike that.
We can't have that happening.

(43:37):
We've got to be addressing itfrom a fatigue perspective so
that you do get a moreproductive environment, and I
think that's a key there initself.
What would you do?
You've worked in a shift workenvironment.
You've got lift experience.
You know what it's like, whatkind of movement or training
practices would you recommendspecifically for shift workers?
You can't say oh, you've got togo to the gym six days a week,

(43:59):
you've got to run five days aweek, you must do this and
you've got to do four F45s.
It just doesn't work for ashift worker.
What would you say?

Speaker 1 (44:07):
With my training specifically, it's all about
timing.
Timing is the core crux ofeverything.
It's about providing themflexibility to be able to do
their workouts whatever.
That is dependent on theirshifts and also dependent on
their recovery and energy levels.
It could be two to foursessions a week and
predominantly with my training,it's strength training because

(44:29):
of all the positive benefitsthat you get from strength
training from muscle mass, solike increased energy levels,
better sleep time, bettermetabolic health.
Also, you burn calories moreeffectively, so decrease BMI.
So I lean more towards strengthtraining with my clients for
that reason.
But, like I said, it is onlyaround their recovery and their

(44:51):
energy levels and their shifts.
It's well and good to say topeople oh, you need to work out
on Monday and then rest onTuesday, back in on Wednesday.
That does not work for a shiftworker because they might be
doing a whole run of nights.
They're not able to do that.
So to be able to give them theflexibility, provide them the
workouts that they can do itwhen they can and when it suits
their physical recovery andtheir mental recovery too.

(45:15):
So a big thing that I doimplement with my clients is
don't overtrain, like match yourintensity to recovery.
So if they're not strengthtraining, they'll be doing some
low impact mobility work orwalking, just getting outside,
just moving their body.
And you can be strategic withthis too.
Like if you were to be comingoff night shifts, for example,

(45:35):
and you wanted to get your bodyback into normal circadian
rhythm.
You could actually use yourtraining and movement to help
install this in your body.
So if you're getting up andyou're working out during the
day, then this is telling yourbody hey, I'm awake now, so
you're going to be alert duringthat time, and then, when it
comes to nighttime, your body'sactually going to go into a
deeper stage of sleep.

(45:55):
So we can use thisstrategically as well.
So I guess, like if we'reseeing training more as a
supportive factor rather than apunishment, I think shift
workers can go a really long waywith that.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Oh, totally, and take the pressure off yourself.
The most underrated exercise?
Well, actually the three, butthe three extremely underrated
exercises for a shift worker.
Number one is walking.
Just full stop, end of story.
Just getting up, gettingyourself out and taking yourself
for a walk.
You don't have to smashyourself with running.
People say, oh, I'm gainingweight, walking's not going to

(46:29):
help it.
Wrong Walking is going to makea big difference, right, Because
you're moving and you'retelling your body it's awake
time, so it's time to metabolizeand store nutrients the way we
do in the daytime.
So there's one way.
So it's time to metabolize andstore nutrients the way we do in
the daytime.
So there's one way.
The other exercise is you havequite rightly pointed out the
resistance training isimperative for everybody, right?

(46:50):
Not just shift workers buteverybody.
But don't think that you've gotto go into the gym and do six
sessions a week, three sessionsa week as a shift worker.
If you're doing three full bodysessions and hitting all your
muscle groups, all kudos to you,as well as long.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
If you're doing three full body sessions and hitting
all your muscle groups.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
All kudos to you as well, as long as you're
recovering.
Well, yeah, as long as you'rerecovering.
And we've got to be smart aboutit.
And we've got people tounderstand that we don't finish
a 12-hour night shift and callin at the gym on the way home
and try and hit PBs right,that's just suicide, right?
We don't do that.
We've got to understand thatour body is highly stressed,
even though we're not, and we'regoing to open ourselves right
up to injury and all sorts ofproblems.

(47:27):
We don't want that.
The other thing is, we want tomake sure that coming out of
night shift and I talk aboutthis all the time for the two
days coming out of night shiftyou quite rightly and quite
accurately pointed out, exercisecan be a tool to cue your
circadian rhythm into the factthat we're back in our daytime
cycle.
So, instead of actually lyingthere in bed going I really

(47:51):
don't feel like this get up, getout in the light, take yourself
for a walk.
Your body will function so muchbetter and you're telling it
it's daytime and we will sleepmuch better tonight.
Love that.
And list training is the otherone that I talk about.
I always talk about listtraining for shift workers
coming out of night shift toburn those elevated
triglycerides out of thebloodstream as well Extremely

(48:12):
important because in night shiftyou have elevated fat in your
bloodstream not only from whatyou're eating, but just as a
natural process overnight.
So what we want to do is burnthose out before they get parked
on our hips and our stomach andeverywhere else.
Pedaling on a bike or being ona treadmill at 65% maximum heart
rate for 30 minutes two days ina row beautiful.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
And no strain on your cognitive awareness too, like
you're not actually causing morestrain on your body, like
that's what we're saying withphysical movement.
It shouldn't be an additionalstressor.
This is a supportive tactic.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
On your days off, after your night shift or your
rest days, that's the day to goin and get into that sympathetic
state while you're resistancetraining and really train your
body.
For that you will feel so muchbetter.
I know people don't think thatthey haven't got the energy to
train.
They don't realise thattraining gives them the energy.
That's the problem.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Exactly yeah, there's never a new circle,
unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
So, on that note, if you could wave a magic wand and
change one thing about how shiftworkers are supported today,
what would it be?

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Oh my gosh, that magical wand.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
You know how to use a baseball bat.
It's got to be a wand, allright, you can't beat a manager
up.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Oh no, okay.
Okay, magical wand, I wouldremove fatigue as being the norm
for shift workers.
Like in my perfect world, shiftworkers are seen as the most
elite in the workforce.
They have the recommendations,they have the strategies to
actually be able to not onlysucceed in shift work, but
actually be able to optimizetheir life outside of shift work

(49:47):
as well.
They are not the most exhaustedindividuals.
These are the people that knowhow to tackle night shifts
properly.
These are the people that knowhow to bounce back and jump back
into circadian rhythms whennecessary.
These are the people that therest of the workforce are
actually envious of because theyknow how to perform.
That is my dream.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
I'm going to put it this way.
I think you made a really goodpoint.
Then 99% of our shift workersactually know how to go about
doing shift work.
It's management practices thatdestroy it and it is it's
management practice.
It's the way the roster's done.
The short staff and not havinga sufficient staff to cope with
running the organisation, withwhat you're actually doing,

(50:28):
management are doing it from aposition of lack of education
around.
You've got to understand thatif you keep pushing your staff
to a burnout level, you losethem and then you don't have
them.
It's that simple.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Sorry to interject, roger.
There are fatigue managementsystems in place, but a lot of
them are subjective tools.
Right, and we've spoken aboutalready that there is this
culture, this stigma shiftworkers can't speak up.
It's seen as weak, it's seen asyou're not being stoic enough.
So the fact that we'redepending our fatigue management
on shift workers voicing theirconcerns, it's not going to work

(51:03):
.
I love that some organizationshave implemented some rostering
systems and being able toprotect breaks and things like
that.
But one if the shift workersaren't speaking up, then that's
at a detriment.
But two, this is organizationalwide.
Why is not everyone doing this?
Why is this not best practiceacross all states?

Speaker 2 (51:21):
And why aren't other organisations looking at that
organisation and saying how areyou going about it?
Because we want to learn fromwhat you're doing.
Because they're not aware andbecause they're closed-minded
and they won't actually approach.
Like you know, victoria Policehas got 18,000 sworn members and
a union.
Why isn't the union approachingand going to someone like me

(51:42):
saying, okay, what is it that weshould be doing?
You've got lived experience of40 years.
What is it that we should bedoing?
I would say to them you need toget a fatigue management
organization in.
Oh no, that won't work.
How do you know it won't work?
It's not working for you now.
You've got a thousand peopleoff on work cover and you've got
800 unfilled positions or theother way around.

(52:03):
Whatever it is, it's notworking for you now.
So you might want to be lookingat some of those things as well
.
I think it's important.
I can only use that, but I knownurses are in a real pickle as
well at the moment Short-staffed, it's not good enough.
I will say this to people in ashift working organization.
I'll make it very, very clearto you it's a them problem, it's
not a you problem.

(52:24):
When they're short-staffed andyou've got to do overtime.
That's a them problem, that'snot a you problem.
And the more you turn up, theless they're going to do about
it.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yes, can we please, please, stop rewarding
exhaustion Like hands down.
Can we stop?
Can we stop saying, oh yeah,like we're going to give you all
this double time and thingslike that if you push through,
if you're tough enough to do it.
Can we stop, because thesepeople are the ones that are
going to burn out sooner.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, that's right.
And then you break them.
And what do you do with them?
Once you've broken them,discard them.
You don't care.
And this is where the staffhave got to understand.
Look, I know, chloe, fromnurses that I've coached as well
, that nurses in particular havea real moral for their
colleagues at work.
They feel so bad that they'reletting the rest of the team

(53:12):
down if they don't turn up.
Like if you're working a dayshift and the afternoon shift
comes in and they're short andthe head nurse or the manager
goes to you Chloe, can you workafternoon shift because your
girls here are short?
You think, oh, I can't leavethem by themselves, I have to
work.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, it is this big.
Exactly what if staff actuallyhad proof that I actually cannot
work overtime because my bodyis telling me otherwise?
Yeah, like that is this sort of.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
I can't do this.
No, it's a complete sentenceI'm not doing it.
And the more you do it, themore they're going to allow you
to get away with it.
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
It is difficult.
They do have to go against awhole cultural shift.
I guess I'll touch on now, likewhat we're doing to help support
staff and organizations throughthis sort of dilemma as well is
we're closely working withBourne University to actually
show that there is a system thatwill be able to help shift
workers and their management tobe able to not only manage

(54:08):
fatigue but prevent it as well.
So imagine if management couldactually see when a staff member
is struggling with fatigue orshowing signs of burnout and
they could jump in early, righton the spot, and be able to have
alerts yeah, be able toreallocate them or not push them
into overtime because they areactually showing signs that they
cannot do this shift.

(54:29):
That's the sort of thing thatwe want to prove with bond
university and then be able tobring that to organizations to
help them out as well, becauseit's all well and good for us to
say to shift workers you know,say no like don't push through
the extra shift, but I get it,I've been there like you're not
going to say to shift workersyou know, say no like don't push
through the extra shift, but Iget it, I've been there Like
you're not going to say no whenthere's this whole cultural
shift and you don't haveevidence that you're struggling
inside, like your body istelling you.
But management can't see that.

(54:50):
But what if they had to seewhat your body is doing?

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Basically, what you're saying is a software that
literally is fatigue, managingstaff all the time Like a lot of
truck driving companies havestuff like this and you can see
what people have worked andtheir hours and that they're
hitting a red line and that'snot the time to say to them I
need you to do a double shifttonight.
That's it.

(55:13):
I think that's a really goodapproach and it definitely needs
to come in and be implementedso that people looking at these
I've got to tell you in policingand nursing you'd say there's
no room for AI.
I totally dispute that.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Who's saying that they need to come into the
modern day and age?

Speaker 2 (55:31):
AI.
If you could put yourenterprise bargaining agreement
into AI and you could also andhere's something for someone
who's listening, because I don'thave the intelligence to do it,
but I'd love to be part of itIf you could put your EBA into
AI and also put your staffrequests into AI, and you could
also put in fatigue managementpractice into AI and have it

(55:55):
write your roster for you.
Your roster could be written inhalf an hour instead of having
someone full-time trying to workout the roster, because it
would be structuring everyparameter in it.
Now it might get to the stagewhere it goes I've got to Friday
and I've got no one to work.
Okay, then you'll look at that.
But the rest of the rostercould have been written
completely by AI.

(56:17):
With fatigue managementpractices in place, these swing
shifts for nurses have got to gofull stop right.
Why they are doing swing shiftsin nursing and policing is
beyond me.
It's highly dangerous in anarea where it's a medical field
that you're actually lookingafter people.
I don't understand that.
Chloe.

(56:37):
For shift workers that arelistening, what message would
you want them to walk away withtoday from this?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
I guess all I can say is you're not broken.
Your body is trying to do itsbest in an unnatural system.
But also your health is not aside project.
It is the foundation ofeverything else that you make
possible.
If you start to put in the work, if you start to actually put
aside the time to concentrate onit, you're not only going to
help your performance at work,but in every single day of your

(57:03):
life.
And just know that there arepeople working in the background
that are trying to make thesystem that you work in better.
We're trying to make thoseenvironments better for you.
We are doing the work, we aregaining the evidence now to
provide to these organizationsso they can't turn a blind eye
anymore.
And the more that you speak up,the more that you speak to

(57:24):
people like myself and Roger andthe unions, then they can't
ignore us.
So if we have enough evidencebehind us to support it, which
is what we are doing, they won'tbe able to ignore this voice.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Totally agree.
The other thing that I say tostaff as well in a world of word
cover, today I would be puttingreports in of near misses going
up the line and because whenyou do that, you've got to come
up with a solution.
I'd say the fact that I've donethree double shifts this week
or this fortnight isunacceptable and you should be
putting in a near miss injury inthe workplace and putting that

(57:58):
up the line.
I also think people will callme a troublemaker for this, but
I also think that what staffneed to be doing is they need to
be pushing it up a line to makethem aware of people like
yourself myself, the Universityof Queensland, bond University,
with what you're doing andeverything else, because without
that, management are not awarethey're not aware.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Yeah, exactly Like they don't know what to fix
unless they know what theproblem is.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Well, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
We need to tell them.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
They can say, oh, we've got no staff and we've got
this, but I need you to workthis double and I need you back
tomorrow morning and you've gotto start at 3 o'clock in the
morning and do this.
It's just unacceptable.
Now we can't be doing that.
Now people would say I did itfor 40 years.
I totally understand it.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Completely ingrained in you, but there's some people
in management that haven't evenlived it.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
No, never looked at it.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
But they don't understand.
So you know, we do have to talkto them like they don't
understand because unfortunatelythey have no lived experience,
and that's fine, let's just makethem aware.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yeah, just make them aware.
And what I want people tounderstand is there's no shame
in asking the question and forthe shift worker, you've got to
put it up a line to say there'sa problem here that needs
addressing.
Can you ask the question?
Can you approach Chloe,approach Roger?
Can you approach these peopleto get them to have a look at

(59:14):
what we're doing and give ussome guidelines to help us to
function?
I think that's really importantthat that actually happens,
because so many shift workers Iknow I've got my following,
you've got your following tohelp us to function.
I think that's really importantthat that actually happens,
because so many shift workers Iknow I've got my following,
you've got your following theydon't put things up the line.
They just sit there and think,oh, it's not worth it, they
won't do anything about it.
They can't do anything about itif you don't actually bring it
to their attention.

(59:35):
Every single webinar andseminar that I've done has been
put up the line by someone whofollows me on social media.
It's been put up the line.
That shows that places havemoney for this stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Yeah, exactly, and we're at an amazing time right
now where there is a lot ofpressure on organizations to
make change to protect theirstuff.
There is so much more awarenesslike this is the time, guys,
that we actually need toimplement these changes.
These are times that we have tostart knocking on this door,
because they're not going to beable to ignore us anymore.
There's too much pressure onthem.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
And once you produce the evidence and say this is the
situation relighting.
This is the situation whereyour fatigue management practice
and here's the evidence.
If they ignore it, they'releaving themselves vulnerable.
Chloe, let's wrap it up what'sone negotiable in your personal
routine, one negoti-negotiablein your own personal routine
today that helps you to staygrounded and well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
I sound like a hippie .
Getting out in nature, roger,literally every single day,
without fail, no matter what theweather is.
I am outside, I'm getting thatnatural light, no matter how
dull it is, and that just helpsmy body get back into that
circadian rhythm or even justregulate my mood as well.
I'm a much better person whenI'm outside and I'm breathing
fresh air.
I recommend it to everyone.

(01:00:47):
I sound like a hippie.
I'm out there hugging the treesevery day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
What do you think tree huggers are so well, look,
don't get me wrong here.
The thing is we underestimatethe value of what we actually
get from our sunlight.
The things that we get from oursunlight are all of that light,
that green light, that yellowlight, that orange light, that
red light, and then we have thelight that we can't see, which
is the infrared, the ultraviolet.

(01:01:11):
It's also good for our health,and the one tip that I would
give and you say thenon-negotiable mine is early
light every single day and Isleep very well at night.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Like a baby and it's as simple as light light
exposure.
Use it as a tool.
It's free, which is so good.
I should focus.
We love that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
But you know, you're probably a bit lucky being up on
the Gold Coast because you geta little bit more than I see,
Dan, here in Melbourne, but itis still there for us at times.
But even so, just gettingoutside, even on a rainy day,
you're still getting 10,000 luxof light, which is still
resetting your circadian rhythmand still providing you with all
of that fantastic light.
Chloe, where can people contactyou or connect with you and

(01:01:53):
learn more about what it is thatyou're actually doing?

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Yes, I would love to connect with you all, so please
reach out.
Instagram is always going to bethe best place, so, at
ChloeSpring92.
, I'm also recently on LinkedIn,so you can always connect with
me there as well.
But any feedback, anything thatyou are struggling with, please
let me know.
When it comes to shift work,because the more that I know,
the more that I can bring toorganizations as well and be a

(01:02:16):
voice for you all.
So any feedback is appreciated.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
I love that.
If there's anything that Chloehas said that's resonated with
you, or if you've got anyquestions about how you would
like to go, I'm quite sure thatChloe would have strategies on
how to approach your management.
By all means, reach out toChloe through her DMs or email
or whatever there is that youcan do, because she would be

(01:02:40):
thrilled to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
I should also mention as well if there's any
organizations or any managementthat want to reach out as well.
Where we are at the moment withthe project development to
implement these systems is we'rein the funding stage, so we're
currently trying to getinvestors on board and
organizations that would beinterested on implementing these
strategies to help preventfatigue amongst their staff.
They'll be one of the first toactually integrate software as

(01:03:03):
well.
It's an amazing opportunitythat is backed by evidence,
backed by science.
That is backed by theuniversity as well.
So if you want to get incontact with me, please do so as
well.
Like I said, linkedin.
My name Chloe Spring.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Fantastic, chloe, well done.
I wish you all the very bestwith what you're doing, because
you are trying to make a massivedifference from management
level, and that's where it isgoing to start Now I do have one
final question that I have toask, and I always ask this
question to every single guestthat I have on the podcast.
I've just won a billion dollarsand I'm very, very grateful for

(01:03:36):
you to come onto the podcast,right?
So what I do to every guestthat I have is I build them a
holiday home or I buy them ahome anywhere in the world that
they want, but you have to livein it for six months, chloe.
Now you can go buy yourself, Idon't care what you do, but
you've got to live in it for sixmonths, because it would be a
horrible waste to build it andhave no one in it.

(01:03:57):
Where am I building it for you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Well, let's go Costa Rica.
I like the community vibesthere.
I love that.
There's a big thing about wholefoods that it just seems like a
really good culture andcommunity to be a part of, and
there's surf, there's rainforest.
Oh, I can tell I'll live theremore than six months.
Roger, did you want me to sendyou my bank details after this,
or?

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
No, no, I'm building it.
I'm just going to give you thekey.
Oh, you're building it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Oh, thank you, thank you, okay, I'm building.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
the whole lot I'll send you the coordinates then.
Send me the coordinates.
We'll work on the plan.
Obviously, it's going to be upon a hill overlooking the ocean
somewhere.
Chloe, thank you so much.
We really appreciate you comingon and sharing your knowledge
in this area with us andthoughts around how shift
workers can better thrive andnot just survive Shift workers.

(01:04:43):
You're doing your absolute best.
We're here to try and helpmanagement, to help you to
thrive in yourself.
Thanks, chloe, reallyappreciate you coming on.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Thank you, Roger.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
And there you have it .
That's Chloe Spring.
Now the point that I want tomake to you shift workers here,
before you turn this off, is, asChloe said at the end, there
you, the shift worker, are doingeverything right that you can
possibly do when you getguidance around what you can do
optimally.
But it needs addressing atmanagement level, and I

(01:05:14):
reiterated that it's up to you,the shift worker, to put it up
the line to get people likeChloe, like myself, to come into
these workplaces and guidemanagement on best practice
around managing shift workers toimprove everything in their own
environment.
Thanks heaps for actuallylistening to that podcast.
I really appreciate it and ifyou got anything out of it,

(01:05:37):
forward it on, forward it up theline to your manager, put it in
an email, put a link into itand say, hey, you might want to
have a listen to this at somestage, because that's the goal
to try and get people to beaware that it's okay to reach
out for help, because there iscurrent science, there are
numerous resources and there areorganizations that are out

(01:05:58):
there that are more thanprepared to actually help you to
manage your shift working staffbetter.
That wasn't available years ago, it is available now and you
really should take advantage ofit and start asking these
questions, because science isevolving at a rapid rate of
knots and I think it's somethingthat we really need to be

(01:06:19):
looking at.
Catch you on the next one.
Thank you for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe so you get
notified whenever a new episodeis released.
It would also be ever sohelpful if you could leave a
rating and review on the appyou're currently listening on.
If you want to know more aboutme or work with me, you can go

(01:06:39):
to ahealthyshiftcom.
I'll catch you on the next one.

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[253] - Chloe Spring - It All Falls Apart If Management Don't Support It

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}[253] - Chloe Spring - It All Falls Apart If Management Don't Support It