August 7, 2025 • 36 mins
How do we honor therapeutic boundaries while truly meeting clients where they are? In this thought-provoking reunion episode with Dr. Dana Weiss, we explore the delicate dance between ethical practice and therapeutic flexibility.
Dana shares a compelling case study of working with a client in a domestic violence situation who splits time between countries, illustrating the complex decisions therapists face when standard practices don't fit unique client circumstances. Rather than rigid adherence to convention, Dana demonstrates how thoughtful adaptation—increasing session frequency when the client is available, creating personalized therapeutic tools, and maintaining clear communication about boundaries—can transform treatment outcomes.
The conversation challenges the profession's sometimes inflexible approach to therapy. As Dana notes, "These theories were created in a time that no longer exists." We discuss how meaningful therapy sometimes looks nothing like textbook examples—from sessions spent in healing silence to therapeutic humor through "Snarky Coloring Pages." This isn't about abandoning ethical foundations but recognizing that human healing rarely follows predictable patterns.
We explore practical approaches to documentation, scheduling flexibility, and navigating boundaries when clients have complex attachment needs. Throughout, Dana emphasizes the critical role of supervision and consultation as safeguards that allow therapists to work creatively while maintaining ethical practice.
Whether you're a seasoned clinician or new to the field, this episode offers permission to question rigid therapeutic structures while honoring the profession's ethical foundations. After all, as we discuss, we're "in a helping profession, helping messy people with messy lives"—and that requires both structure and adaptability.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
to another episode of a Hero's Welcome podcast.
I'm Maria and I'm here with myco-host.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
That's me, Liliana, and we're here with.
I was gonna say a comeback.
Is it a comeback?
I think you can come backanytime.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Don't call it a comeback.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Don't call it a comeback.
How do you wanna reintroduceyourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Oh my gosh, that's like all of a sudden I was like
flooded with what do I say?
I'm fabulous.
I don't know if I would saythat, but I'll take it.
Well, we've talked about anger.
We've talked about supervision.
I do what?
Art, play all the things, loveall of it.
(00:41):
So we're here to talk more andbring more to the table.
So we're here with Dr DanaWeiss.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.
Yeah, so we were chatting as wedo before we hit record, and we
have not learned our lesson tonot just hit record as soon as
Dana shows up.
It might have had to have beena little bit censored, but
that's all right.
We were chatting about wherethings are in the world right
now, where things are in amental health field.
(01:12):
So where did we land?
Where do we want to keep thisconversation going and involve
the rest of our listeners?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I think we were talking about how do we, as
mental health therapists eitherworking with kids, adults, it
doesn't matter we have to oftenkeep adjusting to what they need
, not what we have in the agenda, not with, but what is it that
they need from us?
That pivoting that we have todo often and you were giving us
(01:39):
examples on these beautifulcases that you've been working
with and how we're mindful ofethics and boundaries and still
honoring the client.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So we can start with the one we were just talking
about.
Yeah, the censored version, ofcourse.
There was some colorful languageused when we described it first
but Because humor is healing,humor is healing.
So the balance for me is alwaysthinking about what, what are
my needs and what do I have thatI need.
Like, where are my boundariesthat I'm going to set for myself
?
It's not my job, Like it's notmy client's job to like meet my
(02:13):
boundaries, it's my job to setthose.
And then how can I meet themwhere they're at?
And this particular client issomeone that I've worked with,
for it must be two or threeyears now.
They have lots of traumahistory.
They openly discuss their poorboundaries.
(02:34):
So we're very open aboutboundary work in that way,
because I'm going to give yousome examples, some interesting
examples of how that showed upin this space.
But there's always a balancefor me too, of setting too
strong a boundary with her andallowing some of that fluidity
and that flow, because that isher trauma history, that is, her
(02:56):
inability to set boundaries,not her desire to walk over
people's boundaries.
So that balance of holding thatspace and talking about it.
But then also and I'll give someexamples of how that happened
and she is also in arelationship that involves
domestic violence right now buthas no desire to leave.
They're both older in theirlife, they have a lot of money
(03:19):
tied up together, a lot ofassets, they have homes in
multiple places.
So for her, divorce right nowis not an option because there's
just too much intertwined andtheir age.
And so we work with her whereshe's at.
In that way I have a supervisorthat I work with my boss at my
(03:40):
full-time job outside of myprivate practice specializes in
some of this work, so she's mygo-to and my client knows I talk
to this person about the caseto make sure I'm checking all
the boxes, doing all the safetystuff I need to do.
You know, with her wanting tostay in this relationship,
that's her choice, that is theirlife, and so I'm just making
sure I'm doing all the things Ican to keep them safe, both of
(04:03):
them, and that's what we talkabout.
How do I keep both of you safe?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Because you're choosing to stay in this.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So we have to figure out what that means.
And she's in Costa Rica some ofthe time.
She wanted me to still see herin Costa Rica.
I looked heavily into thatoption and it is not an option
for a couple reasons.
One, my insurance and kind oflicensure protection doesn't
cover me in Costa Rica.
And two, to honor Costa Rica'srequirements, because in order
to practice in Costa Rica, youhave to live there, for I think
(04:32):
it was about two years and youhave to take your test in
Spanish.
So the goal is really to makesure, because there's so many
expats that go to Costa Rica.
My understanding from myresearch is that the goal is to
keep the work there for peoplewho are there and make sure that
they have jobs outside ofpeople beyond.
So we've talked about that a lotand she was like well, why
(04:53):
won't you just do it anyway?
And I was like well, let metell you One reason is you and
your husband have talked aboutreally harming each other.
You're in another country, yourfamilies could sue me.
One of you could sue me.
I was like I have no protection.
She's like but you see me hereand I was like I'm protected
here, I'm licensed here, it'ssafe for me to see you here, and
(05:14):
she's like oh, and I was like,and it's not safe for me when
this is actively happening,although I am torn because I
also think leaving you alone isnot a good option, but I don't
have a choice because of all ofthese things.
And so we've talked about whatshe does in Costa Rica, which I
think that's what I was sharingis she tried to go see some
other therapists in Costa Ricaand decided they were not me, so
(05:35):
she didn't like them.
But we have a lot of otherthings she does.
She has a lot of other healingpractices.
She's really into her religionand her practice there, and so
she has a lot of stuff that weput in place before she goes.
We also see each other moreoften when she's back, which is
not something I do witheverybody, but we'll have two to
three sessions a week whileshe's here in the States to kind
(05:56):
of do work and prepare for thetimes in between.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, and that's not a lot of.
I mean you're, what you'redoing is meeting her where she's
at yes, holding those reallystrong boundaries for protection
for yourself, but also yourclients.
And and being flexible where I?
I still see a lot ofpractitioners and clinicians
struggle with.
No, no, this is how it's done.
You know, if you're not herefull-time, I can't see you at
(06:24):
all, or no, I'm not going to seeyou.
Not see you for four months andthen see you three times a week
for two months.
Right, I love that you like,truly, truly, are meeting your
clients where they're at anddoing the work in the safety and
the boundaries that you need tocontinue to have a practice.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And I do believe I'm able to do that with this person
for a few factors Like sherespects those boundaries.
When I call her on boundarypushes or boundary issues she's
like oh yeah, right, like she'sable to respond to that.
Like there are things thathappen and a lot of the things
that are would be consideredboundary pushes that she does
are really just kind of notrealizing that that's not okay
(07:07):
versus someone I would setdifferent boundaries for someone
that is pushing boundaries,that is, you know, really taking
advantage.
Like I would do that a bitdifferently and I may not be
able to do this with otherpeople.
It works with her and me.
Another thing that is differentabout me than other people is I
speak a lot, I travel a lot, Ihave a full-time job outside of
(07:30):
my private practice, so I'm veryflexible with time and space.
If you show up 30 minutes intoyour session happening, you
still get the rest of your time.
Like I don't cut it off at 10,15 minutes.
Now, if you show up 10 minutesbefore your time's over, we
really don't have any time to doanything.
But you know, if you're runninglate you get as much time as
(07:52):
you get.
You're getting charged for thewhole hour still, but you get as
much time and if you call meand I have a lot of parents that
have a lot of family stuffgoing on with- other children in
therapy with medical stuffgoing on, other mental health
stuff, and so when a parent'scalling me in a panic saying
they forgot the session, youknow I give them several options
(08:15):
.
Like your option is we canhere's my times open the rest of
this week, or you can pay andwe'll schedule for next week as
normal.
But I always try and rescheduleif I can, and the reason for
that is because I often am likeoh, next week, by the way, I'm
not going to be here.
I need to like.
So I need people to be flexiblewith me and things to shift,
(08:35):
because I will see some clientslike earlier in the day and then
sometimes I get pulled for workstuff.
So I need to shift.
So I allow that because I needthat too to a you know, to a
reason, if they're like hey, doyou work on Saturdays?
No, I don't right.
I think the only time I work onthe weekends is if I know I'm
gone a lot that month travelingfor stuff, and then sometimes
(08:58):
I'll do a Saturday or Sunday tomake up so my clients don't have
too much in between.
But I feel like for me and mypractice that's important, that
I give them that grace, becauseI need it as well and and I
don't know that I could workwith that really structured what
I hear people say, like ifyou're not here on time.
I was like my own therapist I'mlate sometimes because I'm
(09:20):
rushing to get where I need tobe, so like if were like too bad
, you're 10 minutes late, Iwould be like I need another
therapist, like I'm always gonnabe running late, probably Like
this is my life.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
What I think is our life more and more these days.
Right, everyone is overwhelmed.
We're all juggling way too muchand doing the best we can, but
we're gonna fall short moreoften than not.
Yeah, so I love that you havethat grace, but you're also like
I am, because I'm asking for ittoo.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And there's definitely people I've had
conversations with.
I'm like, hey, every timeyou're not making your session,
like do we need to figure outanother day for this?
Like do we need to take a pause, like, because then that's a
conversation.
I don't see it as there, that'sa problem with them.
I see it as like, where's theproblem with our time?
Where's the problem with?
(10:13):
Is therapy just, is it notfitting in?
And I don't see that as anegative thing against therapy.
What I see with a lot of thefamilies and I have also a
benefit of in our practice mycolleague sees a lot of the
parents and I see the kids, orvice versa.
I end up getting most of thekids.
Let's be honest, I do the artand play, but I do see some of
(10:33):
the adults too.
But she'll often have parentsthat want their kids to go to
therapy and she's full.
So I end up absorbing.
And so I do have the addedbenefit of sometimes doing a
little bit about the family morethan I might, about why this
could be happening and likewhat's going on with the parents
, where they're not beingirresponsible they're not but
(10:55):
they're like barely holding onby a thread.
And so for me to come in reallyharsh like get your child here
also.
And I do think that I have thatbenefit where we have enough
communication and everyone knowswe kind of have that ROI, where
everyone knows we're going tocommunicate with each other when
we're working on cases together, that I have a bit more
(11:15):
information so that I can have alittle more of that grace and
understanding and not take itpersonal, because it's not.
It's.
Sometimes it is about therapyand sometimes there's parents
that are like I don't understandwhat this play is like.
Why are you just doing slimewith my kid all day long?
I think would you like to comeand join us and find out.
Um, but for the most part Ithink it's that like.
(11:37):
It's just really hard right nowbut is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
like as you were talking, I was like oh, so we're
not naming or for new cohortsof therapists.
What is not being named is that, in our field, we have a
fantasy of what a therapysession should look like, posed
by the systems that we work inregards to.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
This is what this session, if it's 30 minutes an
hour, whatever it is will looklike, and this is what you have
to produce.
Yes, yes, because when I train,I talk about the client that I
sat for 30 minutes with insilence, and everyone's like
what?
And even when I was doing it,the colleague next to me was
like why do you let this personcome in and waste your time?
(12:26):
And I was like what are youtalking about?
And they're like if they're notgoing to talk and do the work?
And I was like they're doingthe work?
And she was what do you mean?
And I said they used to only bedoing 10 minutes, staring at me
like that, like now we're doing30.
That's amazing.
(12:46):
And she was like what?
And I was like and they'repaying for my time, this is not
my time.
Like I'm not wasting 30 minutes, this 30 minutes is theirs.
Like in my mind and this mightbe from my inpatient background,
working in psychiatrichospitals where there is very
little ability for them to haveanything and like I was required
to see them twice a week for 30minutes.
Like if you want to stare at mefor your 20 minutes now, how do
(13:06):
we rate that up?
I think that is the next pieceLike I worked at that time.
I was still an intern when thefirst time it happened happened
many times since then, includingin private practice.
But you know, I worked with mysupervisor like this is therapy,
this is how I know it's therapy, and so I really learned to
(13:30):
write to what was happening,whether there was words or not
in the space, and I think thatalso goes from the art therapy
background.
So my guess is therapists whoare really restricted to like we
have department of mentalhealth paperwork or DCFS, like
whatever probation, whateverpaperwork or whatever entities
are requiring you to writeMedi-Cal, how do you put that in
a way where they can understandit?
(13:52):
And that's just a conversationwith a supervisor or consultant
or taking a few classes.
I know who is one.
Anne Meehan has some greatinformation about documentation
and like how you can do it infive minutes too.
I don't know if I believe her,even though she is my play
therapy supervisor, but, um, andshe, you know, teaches that,
and it's like, how do I writethis 30 minutes, like how is
(14:14):
this therapeutic?
And I think that by diving intothat with someone, you also
enhance those clinical skills.
Because you're right, likepeople would say, this is what
it's supposed to look like andI'm like, okay, well, they're
not talking, so we're juststaring.
Okay, staring, got it.
Do I stare at you or do I stareaway, stare at you, okay?
Well, they're not talking, sowe're just staring, okay,
(14:35):
staring, got it?
Do I stare at you or do I stareaway?
Stare at you?
Okay, and we're just staringfor 30 minutes.
But they stayed and they werein the space and they were
showing up.
Who is locked up away from theirfamily?
Who is being told they have amental illness and possibly
other things?
Who is at risk of being put injail?
(14:56):
Well, of course, they are notsure if they want to tell me
anything, because anything theytell me actually does go to
their probation officers and allthat way in that setting.
So like, of course you want tobe careful.
There is a treatment team thatdecides whether you stay in
placement or go home.
Like, all of the informationyou tell me is not as kind of
(15:17):
confidential or private in theway that it might be in private
practice.
So like, of course it's goingto be hard for you to talk to me
.
Yes, and why would you trust me?
I'm also some little 20something year old white girl
who doesn't understand gang lifeat all and you're in trouble
for being gang affiliated.
So of course you're looking atme like, can I figure you out?
Are you safe?
Is this an okay place for me tobe?
Of course that's going to taketime.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Beautiful right which would go into the brain and the
nervous system for most ofthese clients thinking of let me
see, I'm paying you for asession so that you can help me
make sense of my journey, but inthat journey you have an idea
(15:59):
of what you think I need, nottaking into consideration my
nervous system, my history.
You're focusing on yourstructure, your systems, telling
me what model you're going toapply to me, not asking if
that's the right model for me.
You're telling me how long, howoften, I have to come with you,
not taking into account what Ineed from you.
Is that something that we allacquire in our master's program,
(16:24):
in associations, in terms like?
I don't know, probably all ofthe about, but the conversation
that we started was how do wemeet our clients and we are
ethical, which you justdescribed, how ethical we can be
.
How do we honor boundaries?
They're there for a reason forthem and for us, but the
invitation is how can we beflexible, not be married into a
(16:47):
model that I have to follow or astructure that I have to follow
?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
When you talk about that, it reminds me of like my
journey and being like a manager, and there's a book called the
One Minute Manager.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh yes.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And when I read it it was it's such a simple book to
read and it was life changingfor me, and everyone I employed
after that like had to read thatbook, whether they were a
supervisor or not, like whetherthey manage people or not.
I made them read One MinuteManager because what it did for
me clinically was something Ithought I was already doing but
I didn't have words for is thatwhen the One Minute Manager is
(17:25):
like, you will have yourmanagement style, but all of
your employees have theirlearning style or their need for
their manager and, as themanager, it is your
responsibility to match theirs,not their responsibility to
match yours all the time.
But that is a very hierarchythat not all managers will agree
with.
But this is what this book says.
And so we had a job coachprogram where I worked because
(17:49):
we were an inpatient.
There was a lot of crises.
I think we all, if you've everbeen an inpatient before, you
know the people making the leastare the ones on the floor
working with the kids and alsousually have the least education
, in the sense of not even justschooling, but just like the
least amount of training,because they're the ones who
can't get off the floor to getthe trainings.
And so we employed, because ourcompany was really trying to
(18:15):
like bridge that gap, weemployed a job coach, and so the
job coach's job was to assistall the managers in going in and
coaching people to build theirskills.
And this book just really I hadread it before, but then when
we started this program it'swhen I was in, I was in charge
of the job coaching program andwhen I read it and we talked
(18:35):
about it and we looked at ouremployees, it just changed
everything for us.
Because then, even if someonewasn't a right fit, we talked
about why.
Like, we talked about what isyour career goals Like?
And if someone said, well, Iwant to be a personal trainer
and work with adults, we're like, why are you working with angry
adolescents who are trying tohate you?
Like, how do we help you get tothat goal?
(18:56):
Or how does this job help youwith that goal?
So you're the happiest personhere versus the person who's
calling off all the time.
So it's that same concept whichI think now I apply to my
families, and my privatepractice is like where are you?
What part of me do you need?
Because I'm still being true tomyself, right, like if I do
like with this one person whereI see her a couple extra times a
(19:18):
week, like we do set limits,like she did joke about seeing
me every single day and I waslike that's absolutely not going
to happen.
She's like you're serious,aren't you?
And I was like, yes, and I knowyou are too Like, aren't you?
And I was like, yes, and I knowyou are too Like, I know you
would see me every day.
I was like, but that's not whattherapy is about.
And then I educate her on why.
Why can I not see you every day?
(19:40):
You know she jokes about likewe would probably be great
friends and I was like we may ormay not be, but this is what I
need to be in your life rightnow.
You need someone like me thatcan help you with this stuff and
me being your friend.
You wouldn't be able to havethis.
She's like you're right.
So like I do sometimes have toset boundaries and pull us back
a little bit.
This is the one we started with,and I think what I was sharing
(20:01):
at the beginning too, is she isback.
She had been gone for a while.
She was supposed to come backinto my office to see me for her
first time back, and then herhusband is now in the hospital.
It was very sudden, it was veryquick and so she can't see me.
I don't normally do phone callswhile people are driving,
although I will admit that thisis a person that this has
happened to more than I'd liketo.
(20:22):
We continue to talk about it,but this time I approved it.
There's a lot of like safety,risks and ethics around them
driving or being in publicspaces.
She doesn't understand that allthe time.
We continue to haveconversations about that, but
there's certain circumstanceswhere it doesn't feel right to
cut off the call and because ofher boundary issues, but also
some of her rejection and thingsthat are an abandonment that
(20:44):
have happened in her life.
I try and balance it a littlebit.
So we were supposed to have ameeting.
She was rushing to the hospital.
She thought he was okay andstable.
Something happened.
She's like but I need to talkto you.
We hadn't been able to talk yet.
I was like you know what, geton the phone as long as you're
safe and you promise me you'llstay safe while you're driving.
We're going to have a call andwe talked while she was getting
(21:04):
to the hospital.
That's where the colorfullanguage came in.
She is not one that she uses alot of words, which is part of
probably why she likes therapywith me, because I'm fine with
that and sometimes I'll give hersome as well because it makes
her happy.
And we were talking about asshe was going in like I'm
traveling a lot, we're havingtrouble being able to see each
other, so I was like we can docheck-ins Like I usually don't
(21:26):
let people text a lot of stuff,but she's texting a little more,
just tokeep me updated on how
everything is.
People text a lot of stuff butshe's texting a little more just
to keep me updated on howeverything is.
She knows the rules about that.
Like it's not, you know, I waslike it's not confidential, like
anyone could see my texts theycould, so just know all this
stuff.
If I won't text anything to you, but if you're giving me stuff
to give me information, likejust if, if it gets a little too
personal, I say okay, remembernot to text.
(21:48):
We know, maybe we need a call,can you get out?
But I started creating thiscoloring book for her called
Snarky Coloring Pictures,because she's just in such a bad
place but her humor is stillintact and one of the things
that I have a lot of sarcasm inmy bones and one of the things
some of my all my clients, butmainly my adult clients like is
(22:10):
that sarcasm and so I'm creatinglike coloring books for most of
my clients.
I started it with clientsactually because they're like
these affirmations are stupid.
So like our affirmations arelike, oh my gosh.
Let me pull one up and read itto you.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's so funny.
Someone wrote one, but so now,like we're doing this, so as she
was talking, I was like, oh,I'm going to get some of these
(22:44):
coloring pages, I'm going toeither email it to her or drop
it off to her at the hospital,so she has something to do too.
Because that's a lot Right, wedo, we go to school.
We need that foundation asnewbies.
It's nice to have a structureto follow, absolutely, but the
truth is we're in a helpingprofession, helping messy people
with messy lives.
Yes, and if we are too rigid,we cannot be helpful.
(23:07):
We can actually be more of aburden and a hindrance and a
stressor.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, and I think you said something very important.
There's a reason that in schoolwe need to know where the lines
are, because then that helps meknow.
Like no, like we, you cannotwalk me around your job place
introducing me to everybody.
Like next time I'm going tohang up on you, we need to be in
(23:34):
your car.
Like you have to be in aprivate place if we're meeting
at work.
Like that's the boundary.
Like this is not what we do intherapy and I know it's also
coming from a place of she is soproud of me and the work we do
together that she wants everyoneto know me and I'm like that's
fair and that's not what therapyis for.
Like that's not.
This space is private.
This is ours and I am sograteful that you want to bring
(23:57):
people into the space, but wehave to really like keep this
private Right, and I talk aboutthe difference between privacy
and secrecy, and I do that a lotwith kids.
Like secrecy is holding secretsfrom other people.
Privacy is keeping thingsprivate and choosing who you
tell.
Those are very different things, so I found one of those.
This is one of our favorites.
Let's do it.
I'm not saying I hate you.
(24:18):
What I am saying is that youare literally the Monday of my
life.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I'm going to carry that in a cart.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Oh, I have a beautiful picture with flowers
for you.
I'll send you.
I'll send you my snarkycoloring pages.
You saw some of them, mariabecause I had them in the.
I had them in the anger one,but this is a little this one
which.
I will share with you is not foreveryone.
This is.
There's some certain ones thatwon't be shown to anyone else.
It's just for this particularclient.
There's some words that I wouldnot give to all people.
(24:56):
I do try not to have cursing oranything in these if I'm giving
them out for clients, but if Ihave a client that has some
specific words they love a lot,then I'll add in their version a
couple fun ones that either wecreate together or they create
on their own.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, but it's helpful, right?
Because, as you two weretalking about, you know, this is
still the client's time and Iwas like, and how beautiful,
from an attachment lens, thatyou created this piece and she
still can be attached to youworking on something as she's
encountering all these stressors.
So, like, can we also see thebenefit of it from not only the
(25:33):
therapeutic work that we'redoing, from an attachment lens,
from a crisis lens, like it'sall these things that are being
in.
All of that does not sound orlook like the traditional we
bought into, what therapy shouldbe like.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, yeah, well, and we don't have another three
hours to go on.
Well, and we don't have anotherthree hours to go on, but you
know, the other thing, too, islike yes, we get these
structures, and I think I'vetalked about this in a couple of
episodes maybe, so bear with me.
These theories that we areprescribing to were created in a
time that no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
They're not completely applicable, the way
that they were when they wereoriginated, and if we don't keep
up with where our clients are,where the society is, what tools
are now available to us, we'remissing out and we're doing a
disservice to our clients.
I agree.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I think that's so important and so beautiful and I
teach the trauma course at LMUand one of the things we always
talk about is honoring what camebefore us and honoring the time
they were in and why that madesense, Because I also think
equally to what you're sayingpeople not being able to shift
people also decide to get rid ofthings.
Yeah, and it's like no, likehonor what came before us and
(26:48):
that in the time and space thatexisted, that was important.
Like, I think, of Kubler-Rossbecause this is the one in like
a lot of the book we just wrote,Hope in the Winds of Grief we
were talking about the griefmodels and what to add
Kubler-Ross one is verymisunderstood.
Two, at the time she was theonly one writing about this Like
(27:09):
she did a breakthrough thingwhich is really important to
honor and we have learned somuch since she did that that all
of that doesn't fully apply inthe way she found what she found
Right.
And also she didn't find griefand loss stuff.
She was really looking at aperson anticipating their own
(27:31):
loss and it got translated andtranslated and then it kind of
she even, I think at some pointsaid like it's a train that ran
away and I don't even know howto stop it if I wanted to
anymore.
I don't know if those were herexact words, but it was
something like that, Like it's aball that was rolling.
It was just like it kind of gotbigger than her and even if she
wanted to pull it back and shewanted to shift it, like she
(27:53):
couldn't, because people needthings to hold on to and at that
time that was all they had.
And now we've learned so muchin the grief and loss world.
We've learned so much about howdifferent people grieve and
different cultures grieve, andnot one model fits for anyone.
And I think that's a beautifulexample of don't get rid of her
work and what she did, Like weshouldn't not talk about it.
(28:15):
We should absolutely talk aboutit and why it fit in that time
and why it doesn't now, Like whywe've had to shift and move,
and it may fit for someone.
That may be.
Those kind of stages of griefmay be something someone needs
to get through the day.
I am not going to deny themthat as their therapist.
Okay, well, let's work it,let's look at that.
What does that mean for you?
(28:37):
What does this model mean foryou?
Because you may be interpretingit in a way that does make
sense for you and works, butwouldn't for these other 12
people, Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
No, I love that you remind us of that, right, that's
funny.
I was talking to someone who'sa historian uh, historian, the
um this past week and we weretalking about politics and
history and he reminded me somany good points which I was
like, oh my god, I forgot aboutthat.
And, as you're saying, this isplease for all of you who are
out there, we're not dismissingand please do not dismiss any
(29:07):
theory, because it is absolutelyright, like when I think about
in that point of time, when theycreated this, it served that
purpose with what I know now andthe nervous system and the
brain and different cultures.
What are the adaptations thatwe have to make, knowing that
what I know now may not work sixmonths or a year or five years
(29:29):
from now and we will have toadapt again.
Absolutely.
The idea is how can we beflexible?
How can I say the point oftoday is can you be flexible and
what would that look like foryou within your practice?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And within your boundaries so you're not pulling
too much from yourself, right?
Like what makes sense for me.
I'm very good at working fromeight in the morning to nine or
10 at night on the weekdays.
My non-negotiable is theweekend.
That's for me, like, but Idon't tell my clients, I don't
say you, I just say these arethe times I'm available.
(30:08):
This is my non-negotiable formyself.
I know whenever I add too muchstuff on my weekend, I start to
get stressed out, and that's noone else's fault because and
this has been a lot of work.
By the way, this is notsomething I learned yesterday I
worked in inpatient for way toolong where people pulled on all
of my time, but now that I havemore availability for my
schedule and I can set it Now,when I was in inpatient and
(30:34):
working there, mynon-negotiables had to be
different, because my scheduleis different and I have a little
bit of ability to work where Iwant now, where?
Then I was at a building and Ihad to be there, and so I think
that's another part.
Our boundaries andnon-negotiables shift as our
family shift, as ourresponsibility shift, as our job
shift, and what does that mean?
And what worked for me here maynot work for me there.
(30:56):
And when I was an inpatient, Ihad to see you twice a week for
30 minutes.
That was regulated.
Now, what that 30 minutes lookedlike, or if I did maybe 45
minutes, one part, and like aquick 30 minute check-in while
you're in the door, like thatwas something I could play with
within my ethics.
But like now, it's like once aweek, okay, but what if someone
needs twice a week?
(31:16):
Or you know, we say an hour,but what if, like, someone can
only handle 30 minutes?
Like well, then I'm going tohave a conversation with you
about how billing looks, becauseif you're choosing not to spend
your whole 50 minutes andthat's what you're doing, like
we can talk about that, but somepeople, even adults, can't
handle the full 50 minutes andsome people want an hour and a
(31:37):
half.
Yeah, that could be possible,but we're going to have to talk
about what payment looks likefor an hour and a half, because
that's separate.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful .
Look at this beautifulconversation as we started not
recording having a blast withour conversations, as we tend to
do, but the invitation todaywas, you know, flexibility.
Can you allow yourself to beflexible while honoring clients
and your boundaries and thenfollowing ethics, so that we do
(32:07):
not lose what we work so hardfor?
So this idea as we becomeglobal and clients are traveling
because since COVID we becamemore global than ever yeah, no,
you cannot practice in everysingle country.
Do your research.
You cannot say I'm a therapistin the US and I'm a coach
everywhere else.
No, that does not work likethat either.
(32:27):
I love you.
I love that for you and yourcreativity, and stop it.
I love that for you and yourcreativity, and stop it.
And it may be they use you know, just look at each other or it
may be that we create coloringpages for our clients.
It may be from an attachmentperspective we are working with
them for what they need, notwhat we want, or being loyal to
(32:48):
assist them.
This was such a beautiful,insightful conversation.
That is needed and we need tohave more and more often.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Oh, I would be absolutely happy to talk to
either one of you all day, everyday, Although we all talked
about we can't do that.
So pockets of the day all day,every day.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Oh, and I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
I feel like we're just kind ofgiving listeners permission to
find the flexibility.
I have this image of like well,you have a palm tree in your
background, of like these rootsright, these are our ethics,
these are our boundaries, thesedeep, deep roots.
We can shift a little bit withthat and we can move with our
(33:35):
clients while being grounded inethics and in good practice,
while honoring the foundationsthat we were taught and where
we've been, but also being, youknow, taking a step forward and
like where are you and how do Ibest meet you where you're at?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
And my last thing would be how do we do that is
supervision and consultation.
Even as a licensed practitionerfor many years, on these cases
where I am shifting, like thiscase in particular, I think I
said at the beginning I amconsulting and I am supervising
all the time to make sure I amnot pushing my own boundaries or
forgetting things.
What I would say, too, is thatyou don't have to do it alone
(34:10):
and have those people that cando that checks and balances for
you, check your biases, but thenalso check your boundaries and
like are you pushing too much orbeing too rigid?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
like that's someone you trust, for that is really
important beautiful and go to atraining where they teach you
how to translate all of thisinto notes, because we need
creativity.
Most of us who are play it'seasier for us to be very
creative in translating this,but not everyone has that, and I
get it.
(34:39):
Sorry, you're not a registeredplay therapist.
You can still take thosetrainings therapist to work with
kids, or can you just betrained in play therapy?
That's the whole discussionthat it keeps showing up every
year.
So just go get trainings, getsupervision, consultation.
That is the best way for us tomake sure that we stay within
(35:02):
our ethics.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I agree, training is training.
Do the training.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Just do it, sign up for it, do it.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
We're so lucky.
Please come back.
We always have a blast whenwe're having these discussions
with you.
All right, thank you everyone.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thank you for having me Till next time.
to another episode of a Hero's Welcome podcast.
I'm Maria and I'm here with myco-host.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
That's me, Liliana, and we're here with.
I was gonna say a comeback.
Is it a comeback?
I think you can come backanytime.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Don't call it a comeback.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Don't call it a comeback.
How do you wanna reintroduceyourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Oh my gosh, that's like all of a sudden I was like
flooded with what do I say?
I'm fabulous.
I don't know if I would saythat, but I'll take it.
Well, we've talked about anger.
We've talked about supervision.
I do what?
Art, play all the things, loveall of it.
(00:41):
So we're here to talk more andbring more to the table.
So we're here with Dr DanaWeiss.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.
Yeah, so we were chatting as wedo before we hit record, and we
have not learned our lesson tonot just hit record as soon as
Dana shows up.
It might have had to have beena little bit censored, but
that's all right.
We were chatting about wherethings are in the world right
now, where things are in amental health field.
(01:12):
So where did we land?
Where do we want to keep thisconversation going and involve
the rest of our listeners?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I think we were talking about how do we, as
mental health therapists eitherworking with kids, adults, it
doesn't matter we have to oftenkeep adjusting to what they need
, not what we have in the agenda, not with, but what is it that
they need from us?
That pivoting that we have todo often and you were giving us
(01:39):
examples on these beautifulcases that you've been working
with and how we're mindful ofethics and boundaries and still
honoring the client.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So we can start with the one we were just talking
about.
Yeah, the censored version, ofcourse.
There was some colorful languageused when we described it first
but Because humor is healing,humor is healing.
So the balance for me is alwaysthinking about what, what are
my needs and what do I have thatI need.
Like, where are my boundariesthat I'm going to set for myself
?
It's not my job, Like it's notmy client's job to like meet my
(02:13):
boundaries, it's my job to setthose.
And then how can I meet themwhere they're at?
And this particular client issomeone that I've worked with,
for it must be two or threeyears now.
They have lots of traumahistory.
They openly discuss their poorboundaries.
(02:34):
So we're very open aboutboundary work in that way,
because I'm going to give yousome examples, some interesting
examples of how that showed upin this space.
But there's always a balancefor me too, of setting too
strong a boundary with her andallowing some of that fluidity
and that flow, because that isher trauma history, that is, her
(02:56):
inability to set boundaries,not her desire to walk over
people's boundaries.
So that balance of holding thatspace and talking about it.
But then also and I'll give someexamples of how that happened
and she is also in arelationship that involves
domestic violence right now buthas no desire to leave.
They're both older in theirlife, they have a lot of money
(03:19):
tied up together, a lot ofassets, they have homes in
multiple places.
So for her, divorce right nowis not an option because there's
just too much intertwined andtheir age.
And so we work with her whereshe's at.
In that way I have a supervisorthat I work with my boss at my
(03:40):
full-time job outside of myprivate practice specializes in
some of this work, so she's mygo-to and my client knows I talk
to this person about the caseto make sure I'm checking all
the boxes, doing all the safetystuff I need to do.
You know, with her wanting tostay in this relationship,
that's her choice, that is theirlife, and so I'm just making
sure I'm doing all the things Ican to keep them safe, both of
(04:03):
them, and that's what we talkabout.
How do I keep both of you safe?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Because you're choosing to stay in this.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So we have to figure out what that means.
And she's in Costa Rica some ofthe time.
She wanted me to still see herin Costa Rica.
I looked heavily into thatoption and it is not an option
for a couple reasons.
One, my insurance and kind oflicensure protection doesn't
cover me in Costa Rica.
And two, to honor Costa Rica'srequirements, because in order
to practice in Costa Rica, youhave to live there, for I think
(04:32):
it was about two years and youhave to take your test in
Spanish.
So the goal is really to makesure, because there's so many
expats that go to Costa Rica.
My understanding from myresearch is that the goal is to
keep the work there for peoplewho are there and make sure that
they have jobs outside ofpeople beyond.
So we've talked about that a lotand she was like well, why
(04:53):
won't you just do it anyway?
And I was like well, let metell you One reason is you and
your husband have talked aboutreally harming each other.
You're in another country, yourfamilies could sue me.
One of you could sue me.
I was like I have no protection.
She's like but you see me hereand I was like I'm protected
here, I'm licensed here, it'ssafe for me to see you here, and
(05:14):
she's like oh, and I was like,and it's not safe for me when
this is actively happening,although I am torn because I
also think leaving you alone isnot a good option, but I don't
have a choice because of all ofthese things.
And so we've talked about whatshe does in Costa Rica, which I
think that's what I was sharingis she tried to go see some
other therapists in Costa Ricaand decided they were not me, so
(05:35):
she didn't like them.
But we have a lot of otherthings she does.
She has a lot of other healingpractices.
She's really into her religionand her practice there, and so
she has a lot of stuff that weput in place before she goes.
We also see each other moreoften when she's back, which is
not something I do witheverybody, but we'll have two to
three sessions a week whileshe's here in the States to kind
(05:56):
of do work and prepare for thetimes in between.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, and that's not a lot of.
I mean you're, what you'redoing is meeting her where she's
at yes, holding those reallystrong boundaries for protection
for yourself, but also yourclients.
And and being flexible where I?
I still see a lot ofpractitioners and clinicians
struggle with.
No, no, this is how it's done.
You know, if you're not herefull-time, I can't see you at
(06:24):
all, or no, I'm not going to seeyou.
Not see you for four months andthen see you three times a week
for two months.
Right, I love that you like,truly, truly, are meeting your
clients where they're at anddoing the work in the safety and
the boundaries that you need tocontinue to have a practice.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And I do believe I'm able to do that with this person
for a few factors Like sherespects those boundaries.
When I call her on boundarypushes or boundary issues she's
like oh yeah, right, like she'sable to respond to that.
Like there are things thathappen and a lot of the things
that are would be consideredboundary pushes that she does
are really just kind of notrealizing that that's not okay
(07:07):
versus someone I would setdifferent boundaries for someone
that is pushing boundaries,that is, you know, really taking
advantage.
Like I would do that a bitdifferently and I may not be
able to do this with otherpeople.
It works with her and me.
Another thing that is differentabout me than other people is I
speak a lot, I travel a lot, Ihave a full-time job outside of
(07:30):
my private practice, so I'm veryflexible with time and space.
If you show up 30 minutes intoyour session happening, you
still get the rest of your time.
Like I don't cut it off at 10,15 minutes.
Now, if you show up 10 minutesbefore your time's over, we
really don't have any time to doanything.
But you know, if you're runninglate you get as much time as
(07:52):
you get.
You're getting charged for thewhole hour still, but you get as
much time and if you call meand I have a lot of parents that
have a lot of family stuffgoing on with- other children in
therapy with medical stuffgoing on, other mental health
stuff, and so when a parent'scalling me in a panic saying
they forgot the session, youknow I give them several options
(08:15):
.
Like your option is we canhere's my times open the rest of
this week, or you can pay andwe'll schedule for next week as
normal.
But I always try and rescheduleif I can, and the reason for
that is because I often am likeoh, next week, by the way, I'm
not going to be here.
I need to like.
So I need people to be flexiblewith me and things to shift,
(08:35):
because I will see some clientslike earlier in the day and then
sometimes I get pulled for workstuff.
So I need to shift.
So I allow that because I needthat too to a you know, to a
reason, if they're like hey, doyou work on Saturdays?
No, I don't right.
I think the only time I work onthe weekends is if I know I'm
gone a lot that month travelingfor stuff, and then sometimes
(08:58):
I'll do a Saturday or Sunday tomake up so my clients don't have
too much in between.
But I feel like for me and mypractice that's important, that
I give them that grace, becauseI need it as well and and I
don't know that I could workwith that really structured what
I hear people say, like ifyou're not here on time.
I was like my own therapist I'mlate sometimes because I'm
(09:20):
rushing to get where I need tobe, so like if were like too bad
, you're 10 minutes late, Iwould be like I need another
therapist, like I'm always gonnabe running late, probably Like
this is my life.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
What I think is our life more and more these days.
Right, everyone is overwhelmed.
We're all juggling way too muchand doing the best we can, but
we're gonna fall short moreoften than not.
Yeah, so I love that you havethat grace, but you're also like
I am, because I'm asking for ittoo.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And there's definitely people I've had
conversations with.
I'm like, hey, every timeyou're not making your session,
like do we need to figure outanother day for this?
Like do we need to take a pause, like, because then that's a
conversation.
I don't see it as there, that'sa problem with them.
I see it as like, where's theproblem with our time?
Where's the problem with?
(10:13):
Is therapy just, is it notfitting in?
And I don't see that as anegative thing against therapy.
What I see with a lot of thefamilies and I have also a
benefit of in our practice mycolleague sees a lot of the
parents and I see the kids, orvice versa.
I end up getting most of thekids.
Let's be honest, I do the artand play, but I do see some of
(10:33):
the adults too.
But she'll often have parentsthat want their kids to go to
therapy and she's full.
So I end up absorbing.
And so I do have the addedbenefit of sometimes doing a
little bit about the family morethan I might, about why this
could be happening and likewhat's going on with the parents
, where they're not beingirresponsible they're not but
(10:55):
they're like barely holding onby a thread.
And so for me to come in reallyharsh like get your child here
also.
And I do think that I have thatbenefit where we have enough
communication and everyone knowswe kind of have that ROI, where
everyone knows we're going tocommunicate with each other when
we're working on cases together, that I have a bit more
(11:15):
information so that I can have alittle more of that grace and
understanding and not take itpersonal, because it's not.
It's.
Sometimes it is about therapyand sometimes there's parents
that are like I don't understandwhat this play is like.
Why are you just doing slimewith my kid all day long?
I think would you like to comeand join us and find out.
Um, but for the most part Ithink it's that like.
(11:37):
It's just really hard right nowbut is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
like as you were talking, I was like oh, so we're
not naming or for new cohortsof therapists.
What is not being named is that, in our field, we have a
fantasy of what a therapysession should look like, posed
by the systems that we work inregards to.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
This is what this session, if it's 30 minutes an
hour, whatever it is will looklike, and this is what you have
to produce.
Yes, yes, because when I train,I talk about the client that I
sat for 30 minutes with insilence, and everyone's like
what?
And even when I was doing it,the colleague next to me was
like why do you let this personcome in and waste your time?
(12:26):
And I was like what are youtalking about?
And they're like if they're notgoing to talk and do the work?
And I was like they're doingthe work?
And she was what do you mean?
And I said they used to only bedoing 10 minutes, staring at me
like that, like now we're doing30.
That's amazing.
(12:46):
And she was like what?
And I was like and they'repaying for my time, this is not
my time.
Like I'm not wasting 30 minutes, this 30 minutes is theirs.
Like in my mind and this mightbe from my inpatient background,
working in psychiatrichospitals where there is very
little ability for them to haveanything and like I was required
to see them twice a week for 30minutes.
Like if you want to stare at mefor your 20 minutes now, how do
(13:06):
we rate that up?
I think that is the next pieceLike I worked at that time.
I was still an intern when thefirst time it happened happened
many times since then, includingin private practice.
But you know, I worked with mysupervisor like this is therapy,
this is how I know it's therapy, and so I really learned to
(13:30):
write to what was happening,whether there was words or not
in the space, and I think thatalso goes from the art therapy
background.
So my guess is therapists whoare really restricted to like we
have department of mentalhealth paperwork or DCFS, like
whatever probation, whateverpaperwork or whatever entities
are requiring you to writeMedi-Cal, how do you put that in
a way where they can understandit?
(13:52):
And that's just a conversationwith a supervisor or consultant
or taking a few classes.
I know who is one.
Anne Meehan has some greatinformation about documentation
and like how you can do it infive minutes too.
I don't know if I believe her,even though she is my play
therapy supervisor, but, um, andshe, you know, teaches that,
and it's like, how do I writethis 30 minutes, like how is
(14:14):
this therapeutic?
And I think that by diving intothat with someone, you also
enhance those clinical skills.
Because you're right, likepeople would say, this is what
it's supposed to look like andI'm like, okay, well, they're
not talking, so we're juststaring.
Okay, staring, got it.
Do I stare at you or do I stareaway, stare at you, okay?
Well, they're not talking, sowe're just staring, okay,
(14:35):
staring, got it?
Do I stare at you or do I stareaway?
Stare at you?
Okay, and we're just staringfor 30 minutes.
But they stayed and they werein the space and they were
showing up.
Who is locked up away from theirfamily?
Who is being told they have amental illness and possibly
other things?
Who is at risk of being put injail?
(14:56):
Well, of course, they are notsure if they want to tell me
anything, because anything theytell me actually does go to
their probation officers and allthat way in that setting.
So like, of course you want tobe careful.
There is a treatment team thatdecides whether you stay in
placement or go home.
Like, all of the informationyou tell me is not as kind of
(15:17):
confidential or private in theway that it might be in private
practice.
So like, of course it's goingto be hard for you to talk to me
.
Yes, and why would you trust me?
I'm also some little 20something year old white girl
who doesn't understand gang lifeat all and you're in trouble
for being gang affiliated.
So of course you're looking atme like, can I figure you out?
Are you safe?
Is this an okay place for me tobe?
Of course that's going to taketime.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Beautiful right which would go into the brain and the
nervous system for most ofthese clients thinking of let me
see, I'm paying you for asession so that you can help me
make sense of my journey, but inthat journey you have an idea
(15:59):
of what you think I need, nottaking into consideration my
nervous system, my history.
You're focusing on yourstructure, your systems, telling
me what model you're going toapply to me, not asking if
that's the right model for me.
You're telling me how long, howoften, I have to come with you,
not taking into account what Ineed from you.
Is that something that we allacquire in our master's program,
(16:24):
in associations, in terms like?
I don't know, probably all ofthe about, but the conversation
that we started was how do wemeet our clients and we are
ethical, which you justdescribed, how ethical we can be
.
How do we honor boundaries?
They're there for a reason forthem and for us, but the
invitation is how can we beflexible, not be married into a
(16:47):
model that I have to follow or astructure that I have to follow
?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
When you talk about that, it reminds me of like my
journey and being like a manager, and there's a book called the
One Minute Manager.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh yes.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And when I read it it was it's such a simple book to
read and it was life changingfor me, and everyone I employed
after that like had to read thatbook, whether they were a
supervisor or not, like whetherthey manage people or not.
I made them read One MinuteManager because what it did for
me clinically was something Ithought I was already doing but
I didn't have words for is thatwhen the One Minute Manager is
(17:25):
like, you will have yourmanagement style, but all of
your employees have theirlearning style or their need for
their manager and, as themanager, it is your
responsibility to match theirs,not their responsibility to
match yours all the time.
But that is a very hierarchythat not all managers will agree
with.
But this is what this book says.
And so we had a job coachprogram where I worked because
(17:49):
we were an inpatient.
There was a lot of crises.
I think we all, if you've everbeen an inpatient before, you
know the people making the leastare the ones on the floor
working with the kids and alsousually have the least education
, in the sense of not even justschooling, but just like the
least amount of training,because they're the ones who
can't get off the floor to getthe trainings.
And so we employed, because ourcompany was really trying to
(18:15):
like bridge that gap, weemployed a job coach, and so the
job coach's job was to assistall the managers in going in and
coaching people to build theirskills.
And this book just really I hadread it before, but then when
we started this program it'swhen I was in, I was in charge
of the job coaching program andwhen I read it and we talked
(18:35):
about it and we looked at ouremployees, it just changed
everything for us.
Because then, even if someonewasn't a right fit, we talked
about why.
Like, we talked about what isyour career goals Like?
And if someone said, well, Iwant to be a personal trainer
and work with adults, we're like, why are you working with angry
adolescents who are trying tohate you?
Like, how do we help you get tothat goal?
(18:56):
Or how does this job help youwith that goal?
So you're the happiest personhere versus the person who's
calling off all the time.
So it's that same concept whichI think now I apply to my
families, and my privatepractice is like where are you?
What part of me do you need?
Because I'm still being true tomyself, right, like if I do
like with this one person whereI see her a couple extra times a
(19:18):
week, like we do set limits,like she did joke about seeing
me every single day and I waslike that's absolutely not going
to happen.
She's like you're serious,aren't you?
And I was like, yes, and I knowyou are too Like, aren't you?
And I was like, yes, and I knowyou are too Like, I know you
would see me every day.
I was like, but that's not whattherapy is about.
And then I educate her on why.
Why can I not see you every day?
(19:40):
You know she jokes about likewe would probably be great
friends and I was like we may ormay not be, but this is what I
need to be in your life rightnow.
You need someone like me thatcan help you with this stuff and
me being your friend.
You wouldn't be able to havethis.
She's like you're right.
So like I do sometimes have toset boundaries and pull us back
a little bit.
This is the one we started with,and I think what I was sharing
(20:01):
at the beginning too, is she isback.
She had been gone for a while.
She was supposed to come backinto my office to see me for her
first time back, and then herhusband is now in the hospital.
It was very sudden, it was veryquick and so she can't see me.
I don't normally do phone callswhile people are driving,
although I will admit that thisis a person that this has
happened to more than I'd liketo.
(20:22):
We continue to talk about it,but this time I approved it.
There's a lot of like safety,risks and ethics around them
driving or being in publicspaces.
She doesn't understand that allthe time.
We continue to haveconversations about that, but
there's certain circumstanceswhere it doesn't feel right to
cut off the call and because ofher boundary issues, but also
some of her rejection and thingsthat are an abandonment that
(20:44):
have happened in her life.
I try and balance it a littlebit.
So we were supposed to have ameeting.
She was rushing to the hospital.
She thought he was okay andstable.
Something happened.
She's like but I need to talkto you.
We hadn't been able to talk yet.
I was like you know what, geton the phone as long as you're
safe and you promise me you'llstay safe while you're driving.
We're going to have a call andwe talked while she was getting
(21:04):
to the hospital.
That's where the colorfullanguage came in.
She is not one that she uses alot of words, which is part of
probably why she likes therapywith me, because I'm fine with
that and sometimes I'll give hersome as well because it makes
her happy.
And we were talking about asshe was going in like I'm
traveling a lot, we're havingtrouble being able to see each
other, so I was like we can docheck-ins Like I usually don't
(21:26):
let people text a lot of stuff,but she's texting a little more,
just tokeep me updated on how
everything is.
People text a lot of stuff butshe's texting a little more just
to keep me updated on howeverything is.
She knows the rules about that.
Like it's not, you know, I waslike it's not confidential, like
anyone could see my texts theycould, so just know all this
stuff.
If I won't text anything to you, but if you're giving me stuff
to give me information, likejust if, if it gets a little too
personal, I say okay, remembernot to text.
(21:48):
We know, maybe we need a call,can you get out?
But I started creating thiscoloring book for her called
Snarky Coloring Pictures,because she's just in such a bad
place but her humor is stillintact and one of the things
that I have a lot of sarcasm inmy bones and one of the things
some of my all my clients, butmainly my adult clients like is
(22:10):
that sarcasm and so I'm creatinglike coloring books for most of
my clients.
I started it with clientsactually because they're like
these affirmations are stupid.
So like our affirmations arelike, oh my gosh.
Let me pull one up and read itto you.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's so funny.
Someone wrote one, but so now,like we're doing this, so as she
was talking, I was like, oh,I'm going to get some of these
(22:44):
coloring pages, I'm going toeither email it to her or drop
it off to her at the hospital,so she has something to do too.
Because that's a lot Right, wedo, we go to school.
We need that foundation asnewbies.
It's nice to have a structureto follow, absolutely, but the
truth is we're in a helpingprofession, helping messy people
with messy lives.
Yes, and if we are too rigid,we cannot be helpful.
(23:07):
We can actually be more of aburden and a hindrance and a
stressor.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, and I think you said something very important.
There's a reason that in schoolwe need to know where the lines
are, because then that helps meknow.
Like no, like we, you cannotwalk me around your job place
introducing me to everybody.
Like next time I'm going tohang up on you, we need to be in
(23:34):
your car.
Like you have to be in aprivate place if we're meeting
at work.
Like that's the boundary.
Like this is not what we do intherapy and I know it's also
coming from a place of she is soproud of me and the work we do
together that she wants everyoneto know me and I'm like that's
fair and that's not what therapyis for.
Like that's not.
This space is private.
This is ours and I am sograteful that you want to bring
(23:57):
people into the space, but wehave to really like keep this
private Right, and I talk aboutthe difference between privacy
and secrecy, and I do that a lotwith kids.
Like secrecy is holding secretsfrom other people.
Privacy is keeping thingsprivate and choosing who you
tell.
Those are very different things, so I found one of those.
This is one of our favorites.
Let's do it.
I'm not saying I hate you.
(24:18):
What I am saying is that youare literally the Monday of my
life.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I'm going to carry that in a cart.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Oh, I have a beautiful picture with flowers
for you.
I'll send you.
I'll send you my snarkycoloring pages.
You saw some of them, mariabecause I had them in the.
I had them in the anger one,but this is a little this one
which.
I will share with you is not foreveryone.
This is.
There's some certain ones thatwon't be shown to anyone else.
It's just for this particularclient.
There's some words that I wouldnot give to all people.
(24:56):
I do try not to have cursing oranything in these if I'm giving
them out for clients, but if Ihave a client that has some
specific words they love a lot,then I'll add in their version a
couple fun ones that either wecreate together or they create
on their own.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, but it's helpful, right?
Because, as you two weretalking about, you know, this is
still the client's time and Iwas like, and how beautiful,
from an attachment lens, thatyou created this piece and she
still can be attached to youworking on something as she's
encountering all these stressors.
So, like, can we also see thebenefit of it from not only the
(25:33):
therapeutic work that we'redoing, from an attachment lens,
from a crisis lens, like it'sall these things that are being
in.
All of that does not sound orlook like the traditional we
bought into, what therapy shouldbe like.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, yeah, well, and we don't have another three
hours to go on.
Well, and we don't have anotherthree hours to go on, but you
know, the other thing, too, islike yes, we get these
structures, and I think I'vetalked about this in a couple of
episodes maybe, so bear with me.
These theories that we areprescribing to were created in a
time that no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
They're not completely applicable, the way
that they were when they wereoriginated, and if we don't keep
up with where our clients are,where the society is, what tools
are now available to us, we'remissing out and we're doing a
disservice to our clients.
I agree.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I think that's so important and so beautiful and I
teach the trauma course at LMUand one of the things we always
talk about is honoring what camebefore us and honoring the time
they were in and why that madesense, Because I also think
equally to what you're sayingpeople not being able to shift
people also decide to get rid ofthings.
Yeah, and it's like no, likehonor what came before us and
(26:48):
that in the time and space thatexisted, that was important.
Like, I think, of Kubler-Rossbecause this is the one in like
a lot of the book we just wrote,Hope in the Winds of Grief we
were talking about the griefmodels and what to add
Kubler-Ross one is verymisunderstood.
Two, at the time she was theonly one writing about this Like
(27:09):
she did a breakthrough thingwhich is really important to
honor and we have learned somuch since she did that that all
of that doesn't fully apply inthe way she found what she found
Right.
And also she didn't find griefand loss stuff.
She was really looking at aperson anticipating their own
(27:31):
loss and it got translated andtranslated and then it kind of
she even, I think at some pointsaid like it's a train that ran
away and I don't even know howto stop it if I wanted to
anymore.
I don't know if those were herexact words, but it was
something like that, Like it's aball that was rolling.
It was just like it kind of gotbigger than her and even if she
wanted to pull it back and shewanted to shift it, like she
(27:53):
couldn't, because people needthings to hold on to and at that
time that was all they had.
And now we've learned so muchin the grief and loss world.
We've learned so much about howdifferent people grieve and
different cultures grieve, andnot one model fits for anyone.
And I think that's a beautifulexample of don't get rid of her
work and what she did, Like weshouldn't not talk about it.
(28:15):
We should absolutely talk aboutit and why it fit in that time
and why it doesn't now, Like whywe've had to shift and move,
and it may fit for someone.
That may be.
Those kind of stages of griefmay be something someone needs
to get through the day.
I am not going to deny themthat as their therapist.
Okay, well, let's work it,let's look at that.
What does that mean for you?
(28:37):
What does this model mean foryou?
Because you may be interpretingit in a way that does make
sense for you and works, butwouldn't for these other 12
people, Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
No, I love that you remind us of that, right, that's
funny.
I was talking to someone who'sa historian uh, historian, the
um this past week and we weretalking about politics and
history and he reminded me somany good points which I was
like, oh my god, I forgot aboutthat.
And, as you're saying, this isplease for all of you who are
out there, we're not dismissingand please do not dismiss any
(29:07):
theory, because it is absolutelyright, like when I think about
in that point of time, when theycreated this, it served that
purpose with what I know now andthe nervous system and the
brain and different cultures.
What are the adaptations thatwe have to make, knowing that
what I know now may not work sixmonths or a year or five years
(29:29):
from now and we will have toadapt again.
Absolutely.
The idea is how can we beflexible?
How can I say the point oftoday is can you be flexible and
what would that look like foryou within your practice?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And within your boundaries so you're not pulling
too much from yourself, right?
Like what makes sense for me.
I'm very good at working fromeight in the morning to nine or
10 at night on the weekdays.
My non-negotiable is theweekend.
That's for me, like, but Idon't tell my clients, I don't
say you, I just say these arethe times I'm available.
(30:08):
This is my non-negotiable formyself.
I know whenever I add too muchstuff on my weekend, I start to
get stressed out, and that's noone else's fault because and
this has been a lot of work.
By the way, this is notsomething I learned yesterday I
worked in inpatient for way toolong where people pulled on all
of my time, but now that I havemore availability for my
schedule and I can set it Now,when I was in inpatient and
(30:34):
working there, mynon-negotiables had to be
different, because my scheduleis different and I have a little
bit of ability to work where Iwant now, where?
Then I was at a building and Ihad to be there, and so I think
that's another part.
Our boundaries andnon-negotiables shift as our
family shift, as ourresponsibility shift, as our job
shift, and what does that mean?
And what worked for me here maynot work for me there.
(30:56):
And when I was an inpatient, Ihad to see you twice a week for
30 minutes.
That was regulated.
Now, what that 30 minutes lookedlike, or if I did maybe 45
minutes, one part, and like aquick 30 minute check-in while
you're in the door, like thatwas something I could play with
within my ethics.
But like now, it's like once aweek, okay, but what if someone
needs twice a week?
(31:16):
Or you know, we say an hour,but what if, like, someone can
only handle 30 minutes?
Like well, then I'm going tohave a conversation with you
about how billing looks, becauseif you're choosing not to spend
your whole 50 minutes andthat's what you're doing, like
we can talk about that, but somepeople, even adults, can't
handle the full 50 minutes andsome people want an hour and a
(31:37):
half.
Yeah, that could be possible,but we're going to have to talk
about what payment looks likefor an hour and a half, because
that's separate.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful .
Look at this beautifulconversation as we started not
recording having a blast withour conversations, as we tend to
do, but the invitation todaywas, you know, flexibility.
Can you allow yourself to beflexible while honoring clients
and your boundaries and thenfollowing ethics, so that we do
(32:07):
not lose what we work so hardfor?
So this idea as we becomeglobal and clients are traveling
because since COVID we becamemore global than ever yeah, no,
you cannot practice in everysingle country.
Do your research.
You cannot say I'm a therapistin the US and I'm a coach
everywhere else.
No, that does not work likethat either.
(32:27):
I love you.
I love that for you and yourcreativity, and stop it.
I love that for you and yourcreativity, and stop it.
And it may be they use you know, just look at each other or it
may be that we create coloringpages for our clients.
It may be from an attachmentperspective we are working with
them for what they need, notwhat we want, or being loyal to
(32:48):
assist them.
This was such a beautiful,insightful conversation.
That is needed and we need tohave more and more often.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Oh, I would be absolutely happy to talk to
either one of you all day, everyday, Although we all talked
about we can't do that.
So pockets of the day all day,every day.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Oh, and I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
I feel like we're just kind ofgiving listeners permission to
find the flexibility.
I have this image of like well,you have a palm tree in your
background, of like these rootsright, these are our ethics,
these are our boundaries, thesedeep, deep roots.
We can shift a little bit withthat and we can move with our
(33:35):
clients while being grounded inethics and in good practice,
while honoring the foundationsthat we were taught and where
we've been, but also being, youknow, taking a step forward and
like where are you and how do Ibest meet you where you're at?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
And my last thing would be how do we do that is
supervision and consultation.
Even as a licensed practitionerfor many years, on these cases
where I am shifting, like thiscase in particular, I think I
said at the beginning I amconsulting and I am supervising
all the time to make sure I amnot pushing my own boundaries or
forgetting things.
What I would say, too, is thatyou don't have to do it alone
(34:10):
and have those people that cando that checks and balances for
you, check your biases, but thenalso check your boundaries and
like are you pushing too much orbeing too rigid?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
like that's someone you trust, for that is really
important beautiful and go to atraining where they teach you
how to translate all of thisinto notes, because we need
creativity.
Most of us who are play it'seasier for us to be very
creative in translating this,but not everyone has that, and I
get it.
(34:39):
Sorry, you're not a registeredplay therapist.
You can still take thosetrainings therapist to work with
kids, or can you just betrained in play therapy?
That's the whole discussionthat it keeps showing up every
year.
So just go get trainings, getsupervision, consultation.
That is the best way for us tomake sure that we stay within
(35:02):
our ethics.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I agree, training is training.
Do the training.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Just do it, sign up for it, do it.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
We're so lucky.
Please come back.
We always have a blast whenwe're having these discussions
with you.
All right, thank you everyone.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thank you for having me Till next time.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.