July 10, 2025 • 38 mins
Demystifying the complex world of childhood trauma behaviors demands more than clinical knowledge—it requires a profound shift in how we view challenging behaviors altogether. Robin, a seasoned former therapist who specialized in supporting families of children with trauma histories, joins us to transform how we interpret behavior that seems baffling, dangerous, or personally directed.
At the heart of this conversation lies a powerful truth: all behavior is communication. Robin shares how this simple-yet-revolutionary perspective changed not just her clinical effectiveness but her entire job satisfaction. For therapists overwhelmed by children's difficult behaviors and the parents desperately seeking help, this framework offers immediate relief and a sustainable path forward.
Through accessible animal metaphors—the owl, watchdog, and possum—Robin translates complex neuroscience into language that resonates with both children and caregivers. These brain states, representing different nervous system responses, help decode why children behave as they do and what they're truly communicating beneath the surface. Rather than focusing solely on modifying behavior, Robin guides us toward understanding its protective purpose.
The conversation moves beyond traditional attachment theory, challenging the rigid categorization that has turned attachment into something to "achieve" rather than understand. Robin advocates for a more nuanced approach that recognizes even insecure attachments as brilliant adaptations to difficult circumstances—not failures to correct through shame or control.
For professionals feeling inadequate when faced with complex trauma behaviors, and for parents tired of being discharged by therapists who don't know how to help, this episode offers hope. Discover how curiosity can replace control, how understanding can replace judgment, and how small changes—just 1% different responses—can transform your relationship with the children who need you most.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria (00:02):
Welcome back listeners.
We're so excited to have you.
I am here with my fantasticco-host, Liliana, and Liliana,
we have a very special guestthis morning.
Liliana (00:12):
We do.
Robin, I'm wondering how do youwant to introduce yourself to
our listeners this morning?
Robyn (00:19):
How do I want to introduce myself?
That is such a big question,good grief.
Well, I'm a former therapist.
I have stepped away from doingtherapy for the time being, and
when I was a therapist, I wasworking pretty exclusively with
kids and their families.
(00:41):
Kids who had histories ofcomplex trauma, like really
pretty severe out of controlbehaviors attached to trauma,
whatnot.
And then in the past five orsix years, I've really
transitioned that to doing morespeaking and teaching and
educating, helping moreprofessionals feel confident in
(01:04):
working with these families,because I know working with
these families can feel reallyscary and overwhelming and these
families are telling me everyday like there's nobody who
knows how to help us.
So I have a really big passionfor supporting professionals,
and then I still get to helpfamilies directly.
(01:24):
I have like an online communitywhere I get to work with
families directly, which isreally my heart.
That is.
That is my love every day.
Liliana (01:33):
Yeah, so, listeners, anyone who's out there, we're
going to include Robin's website, but please go Cause when you
go.
You have handouts like you havecreated this.
Have handouts like you havecreated this beautiful payback.
Let me help you, let mesimplify it.
Website not only for theparents who are attending, but
also for the therapists who canbenefit from your training.
(01:54):
So thank you for doing thatyeah, well, thank you for that.
Robyn (01:57):
It is a big uh, that is a huge passion of mine that uh, I
can have a stable enoughbusiness, that then I can create
all of these free resources forfolks.
So I love doing that.
Liliana (02:11):
Awesome.
So you also have your bookRaising Kids with Big Baffling
Behaviors, which, by the way, Ireally love the title of the
book.
But even as you say that, right, I was thinking as I was
listening to you and tell me ifyou also have the same questions
.
Maria.
But when I was reading your book, I was thinking for the new
(02:33):
cohort of therapists who arecoming into our field maybe some
seasoned therapists as well,but for the new cohort of
therapists who are coming in,especially right after COVID, we
saw that most of the therapistswere struggling on switching
from how do I do therapy inperson to online.
And then now they're strugglingfrom okay, how do I do that now
(02:55):
in person?
And something about your bookthat I love is how do we help
therapists see behavior ascommunication and see the brain
the way that you stated sobeautiful in regards to the
parts of the brain, but givethem animal names so that
therapists remember this, likeyou're simplifying, right?
(03:19):
So how do you?
How do you will talk to the newtherapist about all behavior is
communication.
Robyn (03:29):
For me when I started to truly understand exactly what
you're saying, that all behavioris communication, it all means
something and it all makes sense.
That was such a pivotal momentfor me in my work and like my
satisfaction with my work.
You know, the work we do issuper hard and these kids that
(03:52):
are you know, these the kidsthat I work with are like one
step away from needing a higherlevel of care and their
behaviors are dangerous orreally out of control.
And then you add in theattachment trauma and their
behaviors feel so personal andconfusing.
They're really really bizarrebehaviors and I, at the
(04:17):
beginning of my career, was soconfused by them which meant I
left work every day feeling thesame way.
Frankly, their parents were like, really overwhelmed, really
confused, really ineffective,and that is a terrible way to
work and also completelyunsustainable way to work, like
we can't go to work every dayand leave every day being like
(04:38):
I'm terrible at this job and Idon't understand it at all.
It's just, I mean, really fastpath to burnout.
So for me beginning tounderstand even if I couldn't
understand like the specificbehavior, but just like the
overall idea that, like allbehavior makes sense in some way
, shape or form, it's alldesigned to be protective.
(05:00):
Certainly, it's not alwaysworking that way, but that is
the initial intent.
Um, that changed how I liked myjob, yeah, which then made it
more likely that I could do itfor a long time.
So I feel really passionateabout that, with helping
(05:20):
therapists feel more confidentin the work that they do, that
they can show up every day, andeven if they're like, whoa, this
is a new one, I have no ideawhat to do with this.
Yeah, there can still be like asense of confidence, even in
that thought.
Right, like well, that's a newone.
But okay, here we go.
(05:42):
And when, again, when I see theparents who are coming to me or
emailing me or however they'reconnecting with me and just
saying there's not enoughtherapists, there's not enough
therapists, nobody will help myfamily, nobody knows how to help
my family.
They all get to a point wherethey're like I don't know how to
help you, and then they.
Then they discharge us.
Yeah, and and for me, even ifwe don't know exactly what to do
(06:04):
, I think that sense ofconfidence of well, I don't
understand this behavior, but Iknow it makes sense in some way,
shape or form, and also, it'snot actually even my job to fix
it.
Yeah, I think that it createsmore sustainability in our jobs,
yeah, which I really want forthe therapist.
(06:26):
Of course, this is a hard job,a very rewarding job.
It'd be cool if we could do itas long as we want to.
But again, my heart really isthese families of wanting to
help therapists feel moreeffective, so that they can hang
with the families longer and Ican have less families coming to
me and saying we got dischargedagain.
Maria (06:47):
Oh, my God.
No, I appreciate that because Iknow, you know, I know,
speaking for myself there'sfewer and fewer therapists
coming out, but even fewer thatare willing to work with
children, right Like we.
We have a program here in town,we're a university city and
we'll get intern requests allthe time Like, yeah, but you're
going to work with kids, andthey're like no, thank you, no,
(07:10):
thank you.
And that's our growing and willcontinue to be the growing need
, and I think what you'reoffering families and clinicians
is just this permission to justyour job is to be curious.
Just this permission to justyour job is to be curious.
Robyn (07:23):
Yes.
Maria (07:24):
Not to have the answers, not to quote, unquote fix this
but to be curious and to be opento a new form of communication
and I love that.
Liliana (07:32):
Yeah, but also I was going back because I think that
and tell me both of you yourthoughts.
Inner feel there is a fantasyabout attachment.
Right, I love the both of yousmile Because we have this
(07:57):
fantasy that every family, wedisregard the stressors, we
disregard the trauma and wefocus on behavioral modification
and the fantasy that everyfamily should have always a
secure attachment Love, the bothof you just did this like winky
smile and we keep focusing onthe foundation that Bowlby did
(08:22):
in regards to attachment andsomehow we are afraid to focus
on repair attempts and modifythe attachment.
So this is not for you guys tolike, automatically agree with
me, but what are your thoughts?
Robyn (08:45):
Well, we've, without question, made attachment this,
um, almost thing to worship.
Yes, right that it solves allof our problems and, just like
you said, let's get everybody tohave secure attachment, which
couldn't be the.
There's nothing less attachmentoriented than saying something
(09:07):
like let's get everyone to havesecure attachment.
But I think it's such ahallmark of kind of like white
Western culture, right when wetake this great idea.
Frankly, a big fan ofattachment theory.
I mean, I'm very, actually evenrarely talk about attachment
theory much anymore, likeinsecure attachment or avoidant
(09:28):
attachment.
I mean, you hardly even seethat language in my book.
Yeah, but attachment theoryunderlies everything that I do.
Yeah, but you know, we've takenAgain what I think is just this
brilliant idea and conceptsthat are at the core of our
humanity and essentiallyattempted to turn it into a
right or wrong, and here's achecklist to get to it, thank
(09:51):
you, which is again verypredictable.
Like, of course, we did that andagain nothing could be more
grounded in attachment than theidea of it's right or wrong or
there's a checklist.
So when I do talk aboutattachment, I really emphasize,
like well, first of all, ourattachment system as described
(10:14):
by bolby and our attachmentstyles are not the same thing
you know, and our attachmentstyles.
Are these brilliant adaptations?
Liliana (10:24):
there you go to our circumstances.
Robyn (10:27):
Yeah, they're not bad.
Sometimes there's bad outcomesto the behaviors yes, yeah,
merge from insecure attachment,and sometimes I say there's that
they're not without a cost iswhat I I often say, um, and
there's also no doubt that whenwe look at like the
characteristics of a secureattachment, they're very similar
(10:50):
to, like the characteristics ofmental wellness and like it
makes a lot of sense to be like,well, moving towards security
and attachment is a goodtreatment goal.
And then how can we balancethat with being, you know,
respectful and aware of, like,what's showing up right in front
(11:10):
of us and having so muchgratitude?
I mean, I look at these kidsevery day, because I mostly am
thinking about kids, but theirparents too.
I look at these kids every dayand I'm like it is a miracle
that you are even alive, yeah, amiracle.
A miracle that you get up everyday and try to do life and
those attachment adaptations.
(11:31):
That, without question causinglots of problems, but that's how
they're able to do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maria (11:39):
Right, I don't know that's long-winded, yeah, no,
we're back to that.
It's communication, right, andwe can hold the belief that
everyone's doing the best theycan with what they have and what
they know, and it's not allgreat, but it is what keeps them
getting up in the morning andit keeps them, you know, making
these attempts idea.
(12:09):
There's one descriptor, oneexample of a secure attachment,
and everything else falls intoone of the other categories, and
that is such a I can say thisbecause I'm as white as snow
it's such a whitewash attempt ofputting it in a box and, like
you, must meet this particularcriteria to have a secure
attachment, otherwise you're oneof the other ones and good luck
to you.
Robyn (12:26):
Yeah, and as if to you, yeah, and as if that's even bad.
So I talk about that a lot Likeinsecure attachment is not bad,
it's brilliant.
Maria (12:33):
It's so brilliant.
It's safety for them.
Yes.
Liliana (12:37):
So what if, right, all the therapists that are
listening and going to yourtrainings right, go back to if
all behavior is communicationand we know the kids, as you
just mentioned, either they aresurviving or protecting because
they're reading theirenvironment?
What if, instead of all theseassessments and checklists, what
(12:59):
if they become curious aboutwhat is it they're attempting to
repair or get from a universalattachment need, and what are
the adjustments that they haveto do, either the caretakers or
the kiddos to their environment,from what they need or in
(13:21):
regards to just basic needs.
Or in regards to just basicneeds, or in order to come back
to moments of regulation whichthat's what I love about your
book Like, how do you go indetail in regards to regulation?
That's just like I throw it out.
I was like, do I even have aquestion there?
Robyn (13:44):
No, well, I think kind of what you're saying.
A lot of times I'll talk aboutsomeone's hope versus their
expectation, and we can getreally complicated about it.
But essentially everybody'shope is to be safe, seen,
soothed and secure, and that'sSiegel and Bryson's language
from their brilliant parentingbook Safe, seen, soothed and
secure that's everyone's hope,and we're always just really
dying for that truth.
But attachment is just implicitmemory, and implicit memory is
(14:08):
helping us predict what's aboutto happen next, and so we have
our expectations based on ourprevious attachment experiences.
And so folks that have in themoment are moving through the
world with implicit memory ofanxious attachment, for example,
like they have an expectationabout what's going to happen in
(14:30):
this relationship.
And not only do they have thatexpectation, but they, we, we
set up our expectations.
We set up our expectations andwe interpret people's behaviors
based on what we're expecting asopposed to based on what
actually really happens.
So there's, of course, thisreally big vicious cycle that's
(14:51):
constantly happening, wherewe're like longing for somebody
to show us like no, no, no.
Relationships can be different.
You can experience being safe,seen, soothed and secure, but at
the same time we're expectingthat not to be true.
We're behaving in ways that aresetting that up and we're
interpreting other people'sbehaviors through that lens.
So it's of course,exceptionally complicated and
(15:14):
helping.
I think both parents andtherapists really decode what's
happening here.
Liliana (15:20):
Yeah.
Robyn (15:21):
Makes it more likely that they might be able to, you know
, kind of see the setup, seewhat the expectation is that's
being kind of handed to them andmaybe respond somewhat
differently.
And when I work with parentsI'm like listen, if you could
maybe aim to do this differently, like 1% of the time.
(15:42):
That's all we're going for here.
These are very powerfulexpectations, very powerful
setups.
Your kid's out of controlbehavior is setting you up to
respond in a scary way orrespond in a dysregulated.
Of course you can't be anythingbut human.
Maybe 1% more could you put onthose we talked about, our x-ray
(16:05):
vision goggles, and like try tosee the behavior for what it
really is and for what it'sreally asking for.
Maria (16:13):
Next, which again is actually quite simple but
exceptionally hard to be safe,seen suits and secure I love
that and I also love that it'sbecause when we talk about
behaviors and attachment right,we talk about, like the children
attaching their relate, theirattachments to parents, and it's
always fun for me to remindparents you also have an
(16:33):
attachment, you also have someof these expectations you're
your kid, you act out in thisway, so you're setting yourself
up, they're setting themselvesup and it's this you know
vicious cycle.
But I think when I do this withparents that sometimes it
catches them off guard andthey're like oh, oh, that's
right.
I do also have my ownattachment.
(16:55):
You know style, and sometimesit's just a mismatch of that
language that the attachmentsthere, but the language in which
it's being communicated is notexactly but, even, but, even.
Liliana (17:07):
on that, what I just love and what you shared, ramin,
which is can we be curious,right, can we?
Can I invite you to 1%, let goof the idea of control.
And can we be curious about thebehavior, not only your child's
behavior, but your behavior,how we are responding to those
(17:28):
underlying needs, right, I love?
Robyn (17:31):
that part.
Yeah, be curious to your ownbehavior too.
Liliana (17:35):
Yeah, right, knowing that when we're dysregulated, we
go back to what is familiar tous and we're talking about
different generations withdifferent expectations,
different memory, differentneeds, not because we're so
(17:55):
different, but because theenvironment has been different
for all of us, right?
Can we just be curious fromthis lens?
Maria (18:07):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Robyn (18:09):
And curiosity, I think, is one of the more powerful
parenting tools we can bring inand it's also probably one of
the hardest.
I mean, it's really hard to bein an intimate attachment
relationship, whether it be withour kids or our partners, and
to lead with curiosity becausewe're just leading with our
(18:31):
expectations.
That's just how life works.
Where we're just leading withour expectations, that's just
how life works.
And so to slow that down andpause and lead with curiosity is
really hard, but super powerful.
Maria (18:39):
And talking about the generational difference, right,
like I mean, when we're talkingabout this, the thing that comes
to mind we need a differentphrase than curiosity killed the
cat, because that really makespeople, especially when we're
talking about parents or in ourcommunity a lot of times it's
grandparents raisinggrandchildren, right.
When I try to talk to themabout this in this language like
(19:05):
that's, what comes to theirmind, too is like, well, no,
what I say is law, what I expectis what's going to happen, and
so being able to just change theoverall view of just being
curious is something I thinkthat we're still up against.
Robyn (19:16):
Well, that both can be true.
Actually, you know that we can.
We actually can parent withlike no, actually I'm in charge
of what I say goes, if that forsome families that's important,
for some families with regardsto the makeup of the family and
who's making up that family andwho has what capacity for what,
and there's a lot ofcomplication, a lot of
(19:37):
complicating things that happenhere.
But we actually can do both.
We can parent with like no, I'min charge and what I say goes,
and still be curious.
Those two things can coexist,yeah.
Yeah, being curious doesn'tmean I talk about this like
understanding behavior.
Being curious about it is notexcusing it Right, it's not
saying, oh fine, then, yeah, no,yes, no, no, no, but it changes
(20:02):
the energy upon which werespond to that behavior, how we
show up.
Maria (20:07):
They don't take the charge out of it, yeah, and it
can help with that where parentstake it personal.
Robyn (20:13):
Right.
Liliana (20:35):
Yeah, and it can help with that where parents take it
personal Right, Right, If we canstay in that curious space, it
helps tone that down a littlebit because we can recognize oh,
this isn't necessarily anattachment lens or generational
difference.
Most parents tend to go intounderlying fears If my child
does not do this, this willhappen.
I remember doing this exercisewith the mother and I remember
like, so what will happen if?
So, what will happen if?
Like, just asking that questionover and over again, I think we
(20:58):
end up where she said, oh myGod, my daughter is going to be
a prostitute and I was like howdo we?
Got here?
And but at that moment, takingthat information, then I became
curious about oh, when thischild does this, automatically
you go to this terrifying fearand you're doing everything to
control so that she doesn't getto that part, Got it?
(21:22):
I'm going to have thisinformation now when I'm talking
to you so that I can talk aboutthe parental fears taking over
when you see these behaviorsLike that did a shift for me and
I'm wondering how many newtherapists or seasoned
therapists, but new therapistsare aware of the parental fears
versus going through thechecking list of the attachment
(21:45):
Like they're in this.
I was like, okay, that doesn'tmean anything to me, let's bring
it back.
Which feels really bad to tella new supervisee.
Robyn (21:55):
It doesn't mean anything to me.
Yeah, I mean it's true and nottrue.
I mean, really, I am like meand attachment theory we're real
close.
It is definitely, you know, acore part of how I move through
the world and conceptualizeeverything, but I would never
talk about it.
I never talk about thatinsecure attachment.
(22:17):
I, I don't know it's just likeit's can helps me conceptualize
everything, but it's not.
It's completely unhelpful tolead with that, as you know, an
approach, I think I mean, comeon on between us.
Liliana (22:36):
I'm making the assumption that we all have
children, but I have nevertalked to my child and said is
anxious attachment popping upright now?
Is that why you're talking tome that way?
Maria (22:45):
So you might not have Liliana, but your TikTok feed
will show you that other peopledo Like.
They take this and they runwith it and that's how they talk
about like, which can behelpful, I think, for some, but
I think for a lot of others.
I think it just it creates this.
Well, if I'm not this, that I'mothered right.
If I'm not, if it's not 100%,but I'm failing at it, because
(23:08):
even the most secure attachmentsare going to have rough patches
.
They're going to havedisagreements.
They're still going to havebehaviors pop up like that.
It's not the end all be alllike solution.
It is a way to understand whatis happening and then you can
make choices around that.
But it is out there in thepublic domain.
(23:30):
It is definitely pushed as.
If you have this, then youwouldn't have any of those
behaviors because your childbehaves that way.
You don't have a secureattachment with your child, as
that is your fault.
Liliana (23:40):
So let me shame you, let me create more fear for you.
Let's bring it back.
Robyn (23:45):
So in your book, which by the way isn't how you heal
attachment.
Just be super clear witheveryone Shame and healing
attachment don't connect.
Liliana (23:56):
What is it that Taylor Swift says?
Shame didn't cure anyone.
What is her song?
Oh, that's Shake it Off.
Maria (24:03):
I was like stop it.
Liliana (24:05):
But I love and hopefully all our listeners have
read your book and if not, justgo get it.
Okay, and just go get it, okay,and just go get it.
And I love.
So I'm wondering if you cantalk to our listeners who are
not familiar with your book oryour work.
Can you tell us just a sum upof the brain states?
Robyn (24:28):
Yes, so preferencing that I was a play therapist before I
stepped away from the therapyroom.
I use a metaphor that's notterribly unique.
Lots of people use thisparticular metaphor or some sort
of adaptation of it, but I usethis metaphor of having
essentially different kind ofnervous system states or brain
(24:50):
states.
I really actually blend them ina way that I think is both
helpful and unhelpful.
But I talk about the owl andthe watchdog and the possum, and
a lot of folks want to turnthat into something about like
the triune brain, which it isnot.
So I think it's most helpful tothink about it from first from
(25:12):
a nervous system perspective,and I am also connected to and
kind of grounded in polyvagaltheory.
So I'm looking at the nervoussystem through the lens of, like
, the ventral vagal complex andthe dorsal vagal complex and the
sympathetic nervous system, andso my owl is, you know, the
(25:32):
ventral vagal complex, and I'vegot the watchdog, that's the
nervous system, shifted into thesympathetic activation, which,
by the way, does not necessarilymean fight or flight.
And then I've got the possum,which is that dorsal vagal part
of the nervous system, kind ofblended that with Dr Bruce
Perry's neuro-sequential modeltherapeutics work and his
(25:56):
arousal continuum, which I havefound wildly helpful in my work.
He has both the arousalcontinuum and the dissociation
continuum when he talks aboutstate-dependent functioning, and
so he has.
So for me, the watchdogcontinuum is arousal continuum
and the possum is thedissociation continuum.
(26:19):
And then, yes, I also can sortof bring in the idea that the
owl is kind of lives at the topof our brain.
The owl for me does represent,like our highest cortical
functioning that could beavailable given our you know,
chronological age and ourdevelopmental age and all that
(26:42):
kind of good stuff.
So it's a little bit of amashup of some things, but I've
personally obviously found itquite helpful and a little
definitely more helpful thanjust looking at it from like a
triune brain perspective.
I think it really helps us onesee the behaviors, as you know,
(27:04):
driven by what's happening inthe autonomic nervous system,
almost always not always, butalmost always and then if we can
see the energy, you know,because parents come to me and
they're like well, what do I doabout lying?
What do I do about stealing?
What am I like?
Well, I can help you with that,but I have a lot more questions
before I would ever begin.
(27:25):
Yep, because the behavior tellsme very, very little.
Liliana (27:29):
Yes.
Robyn (27:34):
You know.
Now I have to think about well,is this?
You know, what's the protectiveresponse here?
Which pathway are we on?
Is this more of a regulationissue?
Is this more of a connectionissue?
Is this about felt safety?
I mean, there's a lot ofinformation to still kind of
gather before I'd even begin tohave some ideas about what do we
do to help that.
So, did that answer yourquestion?
Liliana (27:54):
It did.
Honestly, I tend to use yourterminology because I mean I
tend to work with migrants whoare in.
Their caretakers are insurvival.
Yes, if I go and use fancywords, it doesn't mean anything
to them.
However, using animals and thislike it is so helpful for them,
right?
So I tend to ask them becausewe're dealing with the fear of
(28:17):
being deported or havingfamilies separated, which is
additional stressors of mypopulation.
Then for me, the question is isyour kid, what is it that your
kid feels the need to protectthemselves?
Or is this behavior a survivalin order to coexist in two
different worlds?
oh yeah can we go through this?
(28:39):
What if I invite you for you togo through this?
And because most of thoseparents are very protected, um,
and in that projection they areprojecting their nervous system?
Response of course they're.
It's all these things right,which, again, we don't talk
about from that perspectivebecause, I get it, not everyone
is working with this population,but your definitions, like it's
(29:02):
so for me, are so easy to takewhen talking to these parents.
So thank you for that.
Maria (29:08):
Yeah, absolutely Good.
Robyn (29:10):
I mean they were developed by kids.
So eventually I mean reallyit's like it's my work, but I
really co-created that with thekids who came to see me and then
really, of course, discoveredalong the way like oh, the
parents like to use thislanguage as well.
It is simple, it's relativelyintuitive, is what I've found.
(29:31):
It doesn't necessarily need toaccompany a whole lot of
teaching piece.
(29:56):
I think of this work of cominginto relationship with the parts
of ourself that we don't like,other people don't like, we're
getting in trouble for, and Ihave just personally found it's
a little easier to build arelationship with your, you know
, very hardworking, if not alittle overreactive watchdog
than one's amygdala.
But also, I don't actually careand I'm very clear about that
(30:18):
when I teach I don't care whatyour metaphor is, and for some
folks they are going to leaninto more science language.
That's wonderful as well.
I literally don't care.
That's wonderful as well.
I literally don't care.
Learn the science, learn why.
I think a metaphor is helpfuland I think those of us that
(30:40):
spend a lot of time with kidscan see that so powerfully.
You know their willingness to,you know, lean into relationship
with these different parts ofthemselves.
You know, adults do that too.
They're just a little moreguarded about it.
But I have found that, yeah,this shared language helps the
grownups too.
Maria (31:01):
Yeah, Well, and especially I mean the ones that
come to mind for me are theparents who are trying to do it
different and don't have atemplate right, Like they're
working hard enough, as it isjust trying to do things
differently, Coming at them withvery scientific terms like I've
lost them right.
But when we were able to talkabout the possum and the owl and
(31:22):
the watchdog, like they get it,they get it, and it's a lot
easier for them to hold on tothat Mm-hmm.
Liliana (31:29):
Yeah.
So what we're saying is likethank you for taking that step
and creating these analogies andsimplifying something that I
love.
When you mentioned Dan Siegel,I was like, yeah, I love him,
and when I go to his trainings,I'm like what?
I'm like writing down and thenhaving to go.
(31:49):
I was like I speak clinicallanguage.
Why do you have to make it socomplicated?
Maria (31:56):
because that's his language.
Liliana (31:58):
I was like I hope he never hears this podcast,
because that's the last thing Iwant yeah, my guess is he's
aware of this.
Robyn (32:05):
I never met dr siegel, but what I have understood from
people who have is that he toohas so much gratitude for those
of us who have taken his workand then can make it more
accessible.
He's aware.
Same with Dr Porges.
They know and they want theirwork to matter.
(32:29):
Yeah, and that's another partof it that's attracted me to
this particular field.
Is that's not true in alltheories?
Yeah, not everyone's sogenerous relational neuroscience
(32:53):
are, you know, quite generouswith this idea.
That's like we all are offeringsomething and they've offered
the science and they want it tobe useful.
So for us who do spend I mean,we spend all day long with
little kids, right, like thoseof us that can kind of translate
the super complex material intosomething that helps parents
and kids utilize it.
(33:13):
I think Dr Siegel loves that.
But also, I've never met him.
Maria (33:19):
So I'm just kidding, but I appreciate, robin, what you're
doing, because I mean, yes,you've stepped away from direct
practice for a little bit, butit's the same thing, right?
You're taking in all thisinformation and then you're
translating it to the next partyin a way that they can
understand it.
You do that with kids and totheir parents or systems that
they're in.
You've done that now in thescience field of like.
(33:40):
This information is reallyhelpful and the people who need
it are not necessarilyunderstanding it.
How can I translate that sothat it is effective for
clinicians and parents to get it?
Liliana (33:52):
Yeah.
So, as we're coming on to anend which I feel like we can
keep going and going, this issomething that we started to ask
our guests, which is whenyou're not doing the work that
you do, which, again, thank youfor doing what you're doing.
How do you recharge?
Because we have also thisfantasy about self-care and how
(34:16):
are we dealing with burnout?
And if you have the answer, howare we dealing with burnout?
We are going to send you honey.
How do you recharge when you'renot doing what you're doing?
Robyn (34:35):
charge when you're not doing what you're doing.
Very fortunate to live in asomewhat rural area, but that
still gives me easy enoughaccess to the city.
So even as just I sit hereright now, what my view is is
quite remarkable I have sucheasy access to nature.
I remember a long time agositting on my therapist couch
and kind of lamenting having towork so hard and I wish I had to
(34:57):
work so hard.
And she was like if you havemore free time, what would you
do?
And I said I would take a lotof yoga classes, which, coming
from now, is super funny becauseI hate yoga.
I am not taking a lot of yogaclasses, but what I actually am
doing is going to the gym a lotand moving my body a lot, and I
take aerial silks classes.
And I'm not an athletic personin any way Nobody would ever
(35:20):
associate that word with me butmovement is so important to me
and movement helps me feel likeI exist.
So I try to get outside and Itry to move my body and I read a
lot.
I really also love to just bequiet and read.
(35:44):
So I'd say those are the.
I spend time with my family.
I do all those kinds of thingsas well.
I'm very lucky to have a very,very close relationship with my
husband and son, um, but it'sjust like tiny little moments
right.
There's no big thing I do, it'sjust these little things that
are kind of woven in to life.
(36:06):
I'm very blessed, so privilegedto have access to these things.
Liliana (36:11):
Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for
saying yes and for being hereand for sharing your wisdom with
our listeners.
Robyn (36:22):
Oh, I'm delighted it's been so special to be able to
chat with you all this morning.
Liliana (36:28):
Thank you for being here and listeners please.
We're going to include herinformation.
Reach out to her, pay for herservices, don't be cheap and buy
her book.
Maria (36:40):
Yes, and I know this will come out in the summer.
So if you're in New Mexico,she's coming to our state.
So we'll also kind of includethat information because if
you'd like to soak up some moreof her wisdom, she'll be
somewhat local to us.
Robyn (36:52):
Yes, November, I think.
Liliana (36:56):
Until next time.
Robyn (36:58):
Thank you.
Liliana (36:59):
Thanks.
Welcome back listeners.
We're so excited to have you.
I am here with my fantasticco-host, Liliana, and Liliana,
we have a very special guestthis morning.
Liliana (00:12):
We do.
Robin, I'm wondering how do youwant to introduce yourself to
our listeners this morning?
Robyn (00:19):
How do I want to introduce myself?
That is such a big question,good grief.
Well, I'm a former therapist.
I have stepped away from doingtherapy for the time being, and
when I was a therapist, I wasworking pretty exclusively with
kids and their families.
(00:41):
Kids who had histories ofcomplex trauma, like really
pretty severe out of controlbehaviors attached to trauma,
whatnot.
And then in the past five orsix years, I've really
transitioned that to doing morespeaking and teaching and
educating, helping moreprofessionals feel confident in
(01:04):
working with these families,because I know working with
these families can feel reallyscary and overwhelming and these
families are telling me everyday like there's nobody who
knows how to help us.
So I have a really big passionfor supporting professionals,
and then I still get to helpfamilies directly.
(01:24):
I have like an online communitywhere I get to work with
families directly, which isreally my heart.
That is.
That is my love every day.
Liliana (01:33):
Yeah, so, listeners, anyone who's out there, we're
going to include Robin's website, but please go Cause when you
go.
You have handouts like you havecreated this.
Have handouts like you havecreated this beautiful payback.
Let me help you, let mesimplify it.
Website not only for theparents who are attending, but
also for the therapists who canbenefit from your training.
(01:54):
So thank you for doing thatyeah, well, thank you for that.
Robyn (01:57):
It is a big uh, that is a huge passion of mine that uh, I
can have a stable enoughbusiness, that then I can create
all of these free resources forfolks.
So I love doing that.
Liliana (02:11):
Awesome.
So you also have your bookRaising Kids with Big Baffling
Behaviors, which, by the way, Ireally love the title of the
book.
But even as you say that, right, I was thinking as I was
listening to you and tell me ifyou also have the same questions
.
Maria.
But when I was reading your book, I was thinking for the new
(02:33):
cohort of therapists who arecoming into our field maybe some
seasoned therapists as well,but for the new cohort of
therapists who are coming in,especially right after COVID, we
saw that most of the therapistswere struggling on switching
from how do I do therapy inperson to online.
And then now they're strugglingfrom okay, how do I do that now
(02:55):
in person?
And something about your bookthat I love is how do we help
therapists see behavior ascommunication and see the brain
the way that you stated sobeautiful in regards to the
parts of the brain, but givethem animal names so that
therapists remember this, likeyou're simplifying, right?
(03:19):
So how do you?
How do you will talk to the newtherapist about all behavior is
communication.
Robyn (03:29):
For me when I started to truly understand exactly what
you're saying, that all behavioris communication, it all means
something and it all makes sense.
That was such a pivotal momentfor me in my work and like my
satisfaction with my work.
You know, the work we do issuper hard and these kids that
(03:52):
are you know, these the kidsthat I work with are like one
step away from needing a higherlevel of care and their
behaviors are dangerous orreally out of control.
And then you add in theattachment trauma and their
behaviors feel so personal andconfusing.
They're really really bizarrebehaviors and I, at the
(04:17):
beginning of my career, was soconfused by them which meant I
left work every day feeling thesame way.
Frankly, their parents were like, really overwhelmed, really
confused, really ineffective,and that is a terrible way to
work and also completelyunsustainable way to work, like
we can't go to work every dayand leave every day being like
(04:38):
I'm terrible at this job and Idon't understand it at all.
It's just, I mean, really fastpath to burnout.
So for me beginning tounderstand even if I couldn't
understand like the specificbehavior, but just like the
overall idea that, like allbehavior makes sense in some way
, shape or form, it's alldesigned to be protective.
(05:00):
Certainly, it's not alwaysworking that way, but that is
the initial intent.
Um, that changed how I liked myjob, yeah, which then made it
more likely that I could do itfor a long time.
So I feel really passionateabout that, with helping
(05:20):
therapists feel more confidentin the work that they do, that
they can show up every day, andeven if they're like, whoa, this
is a new one, I have no ideawhat to do with this.
Yeah, there can still be like asense of confidence, even in
that thought.
Right, like well, that's a newone.
But okay, here we go.
(05:42):
And when, again, when I see theparents who are coming to me or
emailing me or however they'reconnecting with me and just
saying there's not enoughtherapists, there's not enough
therapists, nobody will help myfamily, nobody knows how to help
my family.
They all get to a point wherethey're like I don't know how to
help you, and then they.
Then they discharge us.
Yeah, and and for me, even ifwe don't know exactly what to do
(06:04):
, I think that sense ofconfidence of well, I don't
understand this behavior, but Iknow it makes sense in some way,
shape or form, and also, it'snot actually even my job to fix
it.
Yeah, I think that it createsmore sustainability in our jobs,
yeah, which I really want forthe therapist.
(06:26):
Of course, this is a hard job,a very rewarding job.
It'd be cool if we could do itas long as we want to.
But again, my heart really isthese families of wanting to
help therapists feel moreeffective, so that they can hang
with the families longer and Ican have less families coming to
me and saying we got dischargedagain.
Maria (06:47):
Oh, my God.
No, I appreciate that because Iknow, you know, I know,
speaking for myself there'sfewer and fewer therapists
coming out, but even fewer thatare willing to work with
children, right Like we.
We have a program here in town,we're a university city and
we'll get intern requests allthe time Like, yeah, but you're
going to work with kids, andthey're like no, thank you, no,
(07:10):
thank you.
And that's our growing and willcontinue to be the growing need
, and I think what you'reoffering families and clinicians
is just this permission to justyour job is to be curious.
Just this permission to justyour job is to be curious.
Robyn (07:23):
Yes.
Maria (07:24):
Not to have the answers, not to quote, unquote fix this
but to be curious and to be opento a new form of communication
and I love that.
Liliana (07:32):
Yeah, but also I was going back because I think that
and tell me both of you yourthoughts.
Inner feel there is a fantasyabout attachment.
Right, I love the both of yousmile Because we have this
(07:57):
fantasy that every family, wedisregard the stressors, we
disregard the trauma and wefocus on behavioral modification
and the fantasy that everyfamily should have always a
secure attachment Love, the bothof you just did this like winky
smile and we keep focusing onthe foundation that Bowlby did
(08:22):
in regards to attachment andsomehow we are afraid to focus
on repair attempts and modifythe attachment.
So this is not for you guys tolike, automatically agree with
me, but what are your thoughts?
Robyn (08:45):
Well, we've, without question, made attachment this,
um, almost thing to worship.
Yes, right that it solves allof our problems and, just like
you said, let's get everybody tohave secure attachment, which
couldn't be the.
There's nothing less attachmentoriented than saying something
(09:07):
like let's get everyone to havesecure attachment.
But I think it's such ahallmark of kind of like white
Western culture, right when wetake this great idea.
Frankly, a big fan ofattachment theory.
I mean, I'm very, actually evenrarely talk about attachment
theory much anymore, likeinsecure attachment or avoidant
(09:28):
attachment.
I mean, you hardly even seethat language in my book.
Yeah, but attachment theoryunderlies everything that I do.
Yeah, but you know, we've takenAgain what I think is just this
brilliant idea and conceptsthat are at the core of our
humanity and essentiallyattempted to turn it into a
right or wrong, and here's achecklist to get to it, thank
(09:51):
you, which is again verypredictable.
Like, of course, we did that andagain nothing could be more
grounded in attachment than theidea of it's right or wrong or
there's a checklist.
So when I do talk aboutattachment, I really emphasize,
like well, first of all, ourattachment system as described
(10:14):
by bolby and our attachmentstyles are not the same thing
you know, and our attachmentstyles.
Are these brilliant adaptations?
Liliana (10:24):
there you go to our circumstances.
Robyn (10:27):
Yeah, they're not bad.
Sometimes there's bad outcomesto the behaviors yes, yeah,
merge from insecure attachment,and sometimes I say there's that
they're not without a cost iswhat I I often say, um, and
there's also no doubt that whenwe look at like the
characteristics of a secureattachment, they're very similar
(10:50):
to, like the characteristics ofmental wellness and like it
makes a lot of sense to be like,well, moving towards security
and attachment is a goodtreatment goal.
And then how can we balancethat with being, you know,
respectful and aware of, like,what's showing up right in front
(11:10):
of us and having so muchgratitude?
I mean, I look at these kidsevery day, because I mostly am
thinking about kids, but theirparents too.
I look at these kids every dayand I'm like it is a miracle
that you are even alive, yeah, amiracle.
A miracle that you get up everyday and try to do life and
those attachment adaptations.
(11:31):
That, without question causinglots of problems, but that's how
they're able to do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maria (11:39):
Right, I don't know that's long-winded, yeah, no,
we're back to that.
It's communication, right, andwe can hold the belief that
everyone's doing the best theycan with what they have and what
they know, and it's not allgreat, but it is what keeps them
getting up in the morning andit keeps them, you know, making
these attempts idea.
(12:09):
There's one descriptor, oneexample of a secure attachment,
and everything else falls intoone of the other categories, and
that is such a I can say thisbecause I'm as white as snow
it's such a whitewash attempt ofputting it in a box and, like
you, must meet this particularcriteria to have a secure
attachment, otherwise you're oneof the other ones and good luck
to you.
Robyn (12:26):
Yeah, and as if to you, yeah, and as if that's even bad.
So I talk about that a lot Likeinsecure attachment is not bad,
it's brilliant.
Maria (12:33):
It's so brilliant.
It's safety for them.
Yes.
Liliana (12:37):
So what if, right, all the therapists that are
listening and going to yourtrainings right, go back to if
all behavior is communicationand we know the kids, as you
just mentioned, either they aresurviving or protecting because
they're reading theirenvironment?
What if, instead of all theseassessments and checklists, what
(12:59):
if they become curious aboutwhat is it they're attempting to
repair or get from a universalattachment need, and what are
the adjustments that they haveto do, either the caretakers or
the kiddos to their environment,from what they need or in
(13:21):
regards to just basic needs.
Or in regards to just basicneeds, or in order to come back
to moments of regulation whichthat's what I love about your
book Like, how do you go indetail in regards to regulation?
That's just like I throw it out.
I was like, do I even have aquestion there?
Robyn (13:44):
No, well, I think kind of what you're saying.
A lot of times I'll talk aboutsomeone's hope versus their
expectation, and we can getreally complicated about it.
But essentially everybody'shope is to be safe, seen,
soothed and secure, and that'sSiegel and Bryson's language
from their brilliant parentingbook Safe, seen, soothed and
secure that's everyone's hope,and we're always just really
dying for that truth.
But attachment is just implicitmemory, and implicit memory is
(14:08):
helping us predict what's aboutto happen next, and so we have
our expectations based on ourprevious attachment experiences.
And so folks that have in themoment are moving through the
world with implicit memory ofanxious attachment, for example,
like they have an expectationabout what's going to happen in
(14:30):
this relationship.
And not only do they have thatexpectation, but they, we, we
set up our expectations.
We set up our expectations andwe interpret people's behaviors
based on what we're expecting asopposed to based on what
actually really happens.
So there's, of course, thisreally big vicious cycle that's
(14:51):
constantly happening, wherewe're like longing for somebody
to show us like no, no, no.
Relationships can be different.
You can experience being safe,seen, soothed and secure, but at
the same time we're expectingthat not to be true.
We're behaving in ways that aresetting that up and we're
interpreting other people'sbehaviors through that lens.
So it's of course,exceptionally complicated and
(15:14):
helping.
I think both parents andtherapists really decode what's
happening here.
Liliana (15:20):
Yeah.
Robyn (15:21):
Makes it more likely that they might be able to, you know
, kind of see the setup, seewhat the expectation is that's
being kind of handed to them andmaybe respond somewhat
differently.
And when I work with parentsI'm like listen, if you could
maybe aim to do this differently, like 1% of the time.
(15:42):
That's all we're going for here.
These are very powerfulexpectations, very powerful
setups.
Your kid's out of controlbehavior is setting you up to
respond in a scary way orrespond in a dysregulated.
Of course you can't be anythingbut human.
Maybe 1% more could you put onthose we talked about, our x-ray
(16:05):
vision goggles, and like try tosee the behavior for what it
really is and for what it'sreally asking for.
Maria (16:13):
Next, which again is actually quite simple but
exceptionally hard to be safe,seen suits and secure I love
that and I also love that it'sbecause when we talk about
behaviors and attachment right,we talk about, like the children
attaching their relate, theirattachments to parents, and it's
always fun for me to remindparents you also have an
(16:33):
attachment, you also have someof these expectations you're
your kid, you act out in thisway, so you're setting yourself
up, they're setting themselvesup and it's this you know
vicious cycle.
But I think when I do this withparents that sometimes it
catches them off guard andthey're like oh, oh, that's
right.
I do also have my ownattachment.
(16:55):
You know style, and sometimesit's just a mismatch of that
language that the attachmentsthere, but the language in which
it's being communicated is notexactly but, even, but, even.
Liliana (17:07):
on that, what I just love and what you shared, ramin,
which is can we be curious,right, can we?
Can I invite you to 1%, let goof the idea of control.
And can we be curious about thebehavior, not only your child's
behavior, but your behavior,how we are responding to those
(17:28):
underlying needs, right, I love?
Robyn (17:31):
that part.
Yeah, be curious to your ownbehavior too.
Liliana (17:35):
Yeah, right, knowing that when we're dysregulated, we
go back to what is familiar tous and we're talking about
different generations withdifferent expectations,
different memory, differentneeds, not because we're so
(17:55):
different, but because theenvironment has been different
for all of us, right?
Can we just be curious fromthis lens?
Maria (18:07):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Robyn (18:09):
And curiosity, I think, is one of the more powerful
parenting tools we can bring inand it's also probably one of
the hardest.
I mean, it's really hard to bein an intimate attachment
relationship, whether it be withour kids or our partners, and
to lead with curiosity becausewe're just leading with our
(18:31):
expectations.
That's just how life works.
Where we're just leading withour expectations, that's just
how life works.
And so to slow that down andpause and lead with curiosity is
really hard, but super powerful.
Maria (18:39):
And talking about the generational difference, right,
like I mean, when we're talkingabout this, the thing that comes
to mind we need a differentphrase than curiosity killed the
cat, because that really makespeople, especially when we're
talking about parents or in ourcommunity a lot of times it's
grandparents raisinggrandchildren, right.
When I try to talk to themabout this in this language like
(19:05):
that's, what comes to theirmind, too is like, well, no,
what I say is law, what I expectis what's going to happen, and
so being able to just change theoverall view of just being
curious is something I thinkthat we're still up against.
Robyn (19:16):
Well, that both can be true.
Actually, you know that we can.
We actually can parent withlike no, actually I'm in charge
of what I say goes, if that forsome families that's important,
for some families with regardsto the makeup of the family and
who's making up that family andwho has what capacity for what,
and there's a lot ofcomplication, a lot of
(19:37):
complicating things that happenhere.
But we actually can do both.
We can parent with like no, I'min charge and what I say goes,
and still be curious.
Those two things can coexist,yeah.
Yeah, being curious doesn'tmean I talk about this like
understanding behavior.
Being curious about it is notexcusing it Right, it's not
saying, oh fine, then, yeah, no,yes, no, no, no, but it changes
(20:02):
the energy upon which werespond to that behavior, how we
show up.
Maria (20:07):
They don't take the charge out of it, yeah, and it
can help with that where parentstake it personal.
Robyn (20:13):
Right.
Liliana (20:35):
Yeah, and it can help with that where parents take it
personal Right, Right, If we canstay in that curious space, it
helps tone that down a littlebit because we can recognize oh,
this isn't necessarily anattachment lens or generational
difference.
Most parents tend to go intounderlying fears If my child
does not do this, this willhappen.
I remember doing this exercisewith the mother and I remember
like, so what will happen if?
So, what will happen if?
Like, just asking that questionover and over again, I think we
(20:58):
end up where she said, oh myGod, my daughter is going to be
a prostitute and I was like howdo we?
Got here?
And but at that moment, takingthat information, then I became
curious about oh, when thischild does this, automatically
you go to this terrifying fearand you're doing everything to
control so that she doesn't getto that part, Got it?
(21:22):
I'm going to have thisinformation now when I'm talking
to you so that I can talk aboutthe parental fears taking over
when you see these behaviorsLike that did a shift for me and
I'm wondering how many newtherapists or seasoned
therapists, but new therapistsare aware of the parental fears
versus going through thechecking list of the attachment
(21:45):
Like they're in this.
I was like, okay, that doesn'tmean anything to me, let's bring
it back.
Which feels really bad to tella new supervisee.
Robyn (21:55):
It doesn't mean anything to me.
Yeah, I mean it's true and nottrue.
I mean, really, I am like meand attachment theory we're real
close.
It is definitely, you know, acore part of how I move through
the world and conceptualizeeverything, but I would never
talk about it.
I never talk about thatinsecure attachment.
(22:17):
I, I don't know it's just likeit's can helps me conceptualize
everything, but it's not.
It's completely unhelpful tolead with that, as you know, an
approach, I think I mean, comeon on between us.
Liliana (22:36):
I'm making the assumption that we all have
children, but I have nevertalked to my child and said is
anxious attachment popping upright now?
Is that why you're talking tome that way?
Maria (22:45):
So you might not have Liliana, but your TikTok feed
will show you that other peopledo Like.
They take this and they runwith it and that's how they talk
about like, which can behelpful, I think, for some, but
I think for a lot of others.
I think it just it creates this.
Well, if I'm not this, that I'mothered right.
If I'm not, if it's not 100%,but I'm failing at it, because
(23:08):
even the most secure attachmentsare going to have rough patches
.
They're going to havedisagreements.
They're still going to havebehaviors pop up like that.
It's not the end all be alllike solution.
It is a way to understand whatis happening and then you can
make choices around that.
But it is out there in thepublic domain.
(23:30):
It is definitely pushed as.
If you have this, then youwouldn't have any of those
behaviors because your childbehaves that way.
You don't have a secureattachment with your child, as
that is your fault.
Liliana (23:40):
So let me shame you, let me create more fear for you.
Let's bring it back.
Robyn (23:45):
So in your book, which by the way isn't how you heal
attachment.
Just be super clear witheveryone Shame and healing
attachment don't connect.
Liliana (23:56):
What is it that Taylor Swift says?
Shame didn't cure anyone.
What is her song?
Oh, that's Shake it Off.
Maria (24:03):
I was like stop it.
Liliana (24:05):
But I love and hopefully all our listeners have
read your book and if not, justgo get it.
Okay, and just go get it, okay,and just go get it.
And I love.
So I'm wondering if you cantalk to our listeners who are
not familiar with your book oryour work.
Can you tell us just a sum upof the brain states?
Robyn (24:28):
Yes, so preferencing that I was a play therapist before I
stepped away from the therapyroom.
I use a metaphor that's notterribly unique.
Lots of people use thisparticular metaphor or some sort
of adaptation of it, but I usethis metaphor of having
essentially different kind ofnervous system states or brain
(24:50):
states.
I really actually blend them ina way that I think is both
helpful and unhelpful.
But I talk about the owl andthe watchdog and the possum, and
a lot of folks want to turnthat into something about like
the triune brain, which it isnot.
So I think it's most helpful tothink about it from first from
(25:12):
a nervous system perspective,and I am also connected to and
kind of grounded in polyvagaltheory.
So I'm looking at the nervoussystem through the lens of, like
, the ventral vagal complex andthe dorsal vagal complex and the
sympathetic nervous system, andso my owl is, you know, the
(25:32):
ventral vagal complex, and I'vegot the watchdog, that's the
nervous system, shifted into thesympathetic activation, which,
by the way, does not necessarilymean fight or flight.
And then I've got the possum,which is that dorsal vagal part
of the nervous system, kind ofblended that with Dr Bruce
Perry's neuro-sequential modeltherapeutics work and his
(25:56):
arousal continuum, which I havefound wildly helpful in my work.
He has both the arousalcontinuum and the dissociation
continuum when he talks aboutstate-dependent functioning, and
so he has.
So for me, the watchdogcontinuum is arousal continuum
and the possum is thedissociation continuum.
(26:19):
And then, yes, I also can sortof bring in the idea that the
owl is kind of lives at the topof our brain.
The owl for me does represent,like our highest cortical
functioning that could beavailable given our you know,
chronological age and ourdevelopmental age and all that
(26:42):
kind of good stuff.
So it's a little bit of amashup of some things, but I've
personally obviously found itquite helpful and a little
definitely more helpful thanjust looking at it from like a
triune brain perspective.
I think it really helps us onesee the behaviors, as you know,
(27:04):
driven by what's happening inthe autonomic nervous system,
almost always not always, butalmost always and then if we can
see the energy, you know,because parents come to me and
they're like well, what do I doabout lying?
What do I do about stealing?
What am I like?
Well, I can help you with that,but I have a lot more questions
before I would ever begin.
(27:25):
Yep, because the behavior tellsme very, very little.
Liliana (27:29):
Yes.
Robyn (27:34):
You know.
Now I have to think about well,is this?
You know, what's the protectiveresponse here?
Which pathway are we on?
Is this more of a regulationissue?
Is this more of a connectionissue?
Is this about felt safety?
I mean, there's a lot ofinformation to still kind of
gather before I'd even begin tohave some ideas about what do we
do to help that.
So, did that answer yourquestion?
Liliana (27:54):
It did.
Honestly, I tend to use yourterminology because I mean I
tend to work with migrants whoare in.
Their caretakers are insurvival.
Yes, if I go and use fancywords, it doesn't mean anything
to them.
However, using animals and thislike it is so helpful for them,
right?
So I tend to ask them becausewe're dealing with the fear of
(28:17):
being deported or havingfamilies separated, which is
additional stressors of mypopulation.
Then for me, the question is isyour kid, what is it that your
kid feels the need to protectthemselves?
Or is this behavior a survivalin order to coexist in two
different worlds?
oh yeah can we go through this?
(28:39):
What if I invite you for you togo through this?
And because most of thoseparents are very protected, um,
and in that projection they areprojecting their nervous system?
Response of course they're.
It's all these things right,which, again, we don't talk
about from that perspectivebecause, I get it, not everyone
is working with this population,but your definitions, like it's
(29:02):
so for me, are so easy to takewhen talking to these parents.
So thank you for that.
Maria (29:08):
Yeah, absolutely Good.
Robyn (29:10):
I mean they were developed by kids.
So eventually I mean reallyit's like it's my work, but I
really co-created that with thekids who came to see me and then
really, of course, discoveredalong the way like oh, the
parents like to use thislanguage as well.
It is simple, it's relativelyintuitive, is what I've found.
(29:31):
It doesn't necessarily need toaccompany a whole lot of
teaching piece.
(29:56):
I think of this work of cominginto relationship with the parts
of ourself that we don't like,other people don't like, we're
getting in trouble for, and Ihave just personally found it's
a little easier to build arelationship with your, you know
, very hardworking, if not alittle overreactive watchdog
than one's amygdala.
But also, I don't actually careand I'm very clear about that
(30:18):
when I teach I don't care whatyour metaphor is, and for some
folks they are going to leaninto more science language.
That's wonderful as well.
I literally don't care.
That's wonderful as well.
I literally don't care.
Learn the science, learn why.
I think a metaphor is helpfuland I think those of us that
(30:40):
spend a lot of time with kidscan see that so powerfully.
You know their willingness to,you know, lean into relationship
with these different parts ofthemselves.
You know, adults do that too.
They're just a little moreguarded about it.
But I have found that, yeah,this shared language helps the
grownups too.
Maria (31:01):
Yeah, Well, and especially I mean the ones that
come to mind for me are theparents who are trying to do it
different and don't have atemplate right, Like they're
working hard enough, as it isjust trying to do things
differently, Coming at them withvery scientific terms like I've
lost them right.
But when we were able to talkabout the possum and the owl and
(31:22):
the watchdog, like they get it,they get it, and it's a lot
easier for them to hold on tothat Mm-hmm.
Liliana (31:29):
Yeah.
So what we're saying is likethank you for taking that step
and creating these analogies andsimplifying something that I
love.
When you mentioned Dan Siegel,I was like, yeah, I love him,
and when I go to his trainings,I'm like what?
I'm like writing down and thenhaving to go.
(31:49):
I was like I speak clinicallanguage.
Why do you have to make it socomplicated?
Maria (31:56):
because that's his language.
Liliana (31:58):
I was like I hope he never hears this podcast,
because that's the last thing Iwant yeah, my guess is he's
aware of this.
Robyn (32:05):
I never met dr siegel, but what I have understood from
people who have is that he toohas so much gratitude for those
of us who have taken his workand then can make it more
accessible.
He's aware.
Same with Dr Porges.
They know and they want theirwork to matter.
(32:29):
Yeah, and that's another partof it that's attracted me to
this particular field.
Is that's not true in alltheories?
Yeah, not everyone's sogenerous relational neuroscience
(32:53):
are, you know, quite generouswith this idea.
That's like we all are offeringsomething and they've offered
the science and they want it tobe useful.
So for us who do spend I mean,we spend all day long with
little kids, right, like thoseof us that can kind of translate
the super complex material intosomething that helps parents
and kids utilize it.
(33:13):
I think Dr Siegel loves that.
But also, I've never met him.
Maria (33:19):
So I'm just kidding, but I appreciate, robin, what you're
doing, because I mean, yes,you've stepped away from direct
practice for a little bit, butit's the same thing, right?
You're taking in all thisinformation and then you're
translating it to the next partyin a way that they can
understand it.
You do that with kids and totheir parents or systems that
they're in.
You've done that now in thescience field of like.
(33:40):
This information is reallyhelpful and the people who need
it are not necessarilyunderstanding it.
How can I translate that sothat it is effective for
clinicians and parents to get it?
Liliana (33:52):
Yeah.
So, as we're coming on to anend which I feel like we can
keep going and going, this issomething that we started to ask
our guests, which is whenyou're not doing the work that
you do, which, again, thank youfor doing what you're doing.
How do you recharge?
Because we have also thisfantasy about self-care and how
(34:16):
are we dealing with burnout?
And if you have the answer, howare we dealing with burnout?
We are going to send you honey.
How do you recharge when you'renot doing what you're doing?
Robyn (34:35):
charge when you're not doing what you're doing.
Very fortunate to live in asomewhat rural area, but that
still gives me easy enoughaccess to the city.
So even as just I sit hereright now, what my view is is
quite remarkable I have sucheasy access to nature.
I remember a long time agositting on my therapist couch
and kind of lamenting having towork so hard and I wish I had to
(34:57):
work so hard.
And she was like if you havemore free time, what would you
do?
And I said I would take a lotof yoga classes, which, coming
from now, is super funny becauseI hate yoga.
I am not taking a lot of yogaclasses, but what I actually am
doing is going to the gym a lotand moving my body a lot, and I
take aerial silks classes.
And I'm not an athletic personin any way Nobody would ever
(35:20):
associate that word with me butmovement is so important to me
and movement helps me feel likeI exist.
So I try to get outside and Itry to move my body and I read a
lot.
I really also love to just bequiet and read.
(35:44):
So I'd say those are the.
I spend time with my family.
I do all those kinds of thingsas well.
I'm very lucky to have a very,very close relationship with my
husband and son, um, but it'sjust like tiny little moments
right.
There's no big thing I do, it'sjust these little things that
are kind of woven in to life.
(36:06):
I'm very blessed, so privilegedto have access to these things.
Liliana (36:11):
Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for
saying yes and for being hereand for sharing your wisdom with
our listeners.
Robyn (36:22):
Oh, I'm delighted it's been so special to be able to
chat with you all this morning.
Liliana (36:28):
Thank you for being here and listeners please.
We're going to include herinformation.
Reach out to her, pay for herservices, don't be cheap and buy
her book.
Maria (36:40):
Yes, and I know this will come out in the summer.
So if you're in New Mexico,she's coming to our state.
So we'll also kind of includethat information because if
you'd like to soak up some moreof her wisdom, she'll be
somewhat local to us.
Robyn (36:52):
Yes, November, I think.
Liliana (36:56):
Until next time.
Robyn (36:58):
Thank you.
Liliana (36:59):
Thanks.
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