April 3, 2025 • 31 mins
What if the relentless drive for success is harming you? Join Maria Diego and Liliana Baylon as they critically examine the hustle culture that saturates the mental health field. Inspired by their recent book club reading, "Dynamic Drive," they share personal experiences from their rigorous academic journeys and career paths. Together, they challenge the idea that relentless hustling is necessary for success, especially when it comes at the cost of personal well-being. This episode encourages you to reconsider your definitions of success and explores healthier, more sustainable approaches to professional growth.
Ever wondered why women, particularly in fields like mental health, are disproportionately affected by burnout? Maria and Liliana delve into the origins of hustle culture, shedding light on its deep-seated gender biases and unrealistic expectations. They discuss how these pressures have been magnified by the COVID-19 pandemic, causing many to reconsider their career paths. Personal anecdotes bring to life the ongoing emotional burdens that women face, both in the workplace and at home. The conversation emphasizes the urgent need to integrate new technologies and skills to foster healthier work environments, paving the way for more balanced and fulfilling professional lives.
It's time to break free from outdated notions and embrace a more personalized approach to work-life balance. Maria and Liliana highlight the importance of setting boundaries, taking time to recharge, and rejecting the myth of "paying dues." They emphasize self-care and self-advocacy as essential tools for avoiding burnout, particularly for those with chronic illnesses. By sharing their insights, they aim to empower you to create a meaningful path that truly aligns with your needs. Tune in and discover how to become your best advocate, ensuring your professional journey is both successful and sustainable.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria (00:16):
Welcome, listeners.
Welcome to a bonus episode of ahero's welcome podcast.
I'm Maria Diego, your co-host,joined today by Liliana Baylon,
my other co-host.
Liliana (00:16):
Thank you for being here and not a play therapist,
but we adopted her.
Uh, she doesn't know yet, sheplays in different ways, in
(00:36):
different ways yes really funways, um, and we started a book
club um a couple of months andevery book that we have read we
have taken and haveconversations about it.
So this month, even though wehave not processed with our
group yet, we decided to talkabout this book because we
realized how it plays into ourfield.
(00:58):
So the book that we're readingis called Dynamic Drive and
we're having amazingconversations.
By the way, this is not topromote the book.
The author is not paying us forthis.
Maria (01:11):
This is not a sponsored episode.
Liliana (01:40):
It's hustle and we regarding having conversations
how this What other areas?
Maria (01:51):
I mean, it can go on and on and on, right, but we were,
and and just kind of like, andthen in perpetuity, right.
So you know, I think it'sinteresting too.
The title is dynamic drive, um,and I mean and spoiler alert I
mean, I did not love this book,um, I brought up a lot of things
for me and one of, me think,the sticking points for many of
us in our book club has beenthis it feels really
(02:16):
perpetuating this idea of thehustle culture and just renaming
it as drive and motivation, andmotivation.
I don't think
he So let's put it inperspective on how it applies to
mental health, which, by theway, spoiler alert, I also book
.
heook b t So, suggested thebook, book, and I was like,
(02:47):
like, I'm sorry, but this ideaof of, about you went to school,
and it was hassle, taking allthese classes, going to work,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
blah.
And you .
you ou maintain it becauseuniversities have unrealistic
expectations of us in ourmaster's programs.
And it gets worse, I heard inour PhD, if you decide to do
that which you don't have to,that's another topic.
But then you get out of school,um school.
(03:07):
Then you're an internship/practicum, and it's hustle,
hustle, hustle, because youstill have to go to school, you
have to go clients, you have tomake a living because, believe
it or not, you still have to paybills, um, then you're just
like pushing through and thenyou graduate, you are working
towards licensure, because everystate has different names for
(03:30):
it it names ifor and you getthose hours Right.
So if right ight So, LPC, youhave a set of requirements.
If you're an MFT social worker,you have another set of
requirements.
So you're hustling and youstill have to make a living and
you still try to have a sociallife.
If you have one, please let usknow how, send us a tip.
(03:55):
And then you get licensed, andthen it's now what?
So then it's a different kindof hustle, right, and then you
decide to spread out.
So you become a supervisor, youare presenting, and it's hustle
, hustle, hustle.
If you go for certifications,it's hustle, hustle, hustle, for
(04:17):
crying out loud everything ishustle.
And so we start to question several things around
(05:05):
we start to question severalthings around this, right?
So we start to question whetherit's necessary, right?
Is this truly benefiting usdoing the hustle?
Um, where, where does thisactually get us?
In the end of all of this?
And for Liliana, for you, andme, our questions really revolve
around what this is going to doto me to maintain this pace in
the fast lane.
Right, we've been very openabout, you know, our own medical
issues and how that is really anew lens for us that we are
looking to share with everybodyelse that you know, the hustle
culture is.
It's not it, right, it's not it.
You and I have shared our ownstories about how we have done
the hustle culture prior torecording.
I, you know, I even kind ofshared, like you know, with my
(05:26):
diagnosis.
It was inevitable.
But I wonder if I'm strugglingwith symptoms much earlier
because I was in the hustleculture, you know, for so long
that it took a toll on myphysical body, right?
Um, you don't have to stay tothe end of the episode.
(05:47):
I don't think we have to do thehustle culture.
I don't think that we have towork in really faulty systems
(06:09):
and sometimes that means we fallinto this.
I think what we want to shareis, when you're on the other
side, it becomes a choice andyou don't have to choose to do
that.
Liliana (06:23):
And you can still very much be successful in what you
want to do.
So then the invitation is canwe reframe, reinvent the
definition of what is successfor you?
Right, because is it.
Are you focused on making money?
Are you focused on a reputation?
Are you focused like, what isthe success line for you?
You know, coming back, I lovethat Again, maria, that you
(06:46):
started sharing, because I waslike I started thinking, too, is
mine could be also.
My health issues could have beenjust like, well, that's what it
is.
Well, the first one, I'm goingto say yeah, because it was
cancer.
The second one, major one, Iwas like I don't know, because
we have done so much testing andwe don't know what caused it,
to the point that, in thediagnosis is unprovoked.
I don't know, because we havedone so much testing and we
don't know what caused it, tothe point that, in the diagnosis
is unprovoked.
I don't know what that means,but you know.
(07:09):
And then the third stuff thatI've been dealing with in the
last year we don't know, but thereality is that when we are
working so hard with thismentality of hustle, hustle,
hustle because you have to,because that's the mentality
that we inherit as therapists.
(07:30):
Right, like, you have to payyour dues.
That's a line that we allbought into.
Like what dues?
We're not going to be done.
Is this like my student loans?
Am I ever going to pay them off?
We don't know, but the realityis no.
You know, we have the privilegeper se because we're on the
(07:52):
other side of like questioningright now.
Is this really what I want?
Do I want to be in thementality of I have to be
working in order to prove myworthiness?
I have to be working in orderto share with you what I need to
share, and Maria and I are inthe mentality of like, not if
it's costing me my health.
Maria (08:12):
Yeah absolutely Right, and so for all of our listeners,
remember, liliana and I areboth MFTs, which means we are,
we look at systems, and I thinkwe both take a lot of pride in
that.
We are cycle breakers.
Those statements like this isthe way it's always been you got
to pay your dues.
You know, this is just what'sexpected, um, but we are the
(08:34):
first ones in line to say no, no, thank you.
There has got to be a betterway.
I'm going to forge a better way, um, we're going to look at
other professions and find abetter way, but we're not doing
this just because this is howit's always been done, and so
part of our hope in having thisconversation, too, is you know,
(08:54):
are you falling into a trap thatyou don't need to be in Right,
recognizing that you may stillbe in systems that require this
of you and, if that's the case,empowering you to look at other
systems that do not have yousacrificing this right?
I mean, in my undergrad years, Iworked two full-time jobs and
(09:15):
went to school how, how, rightIn grad school, right,
internship, externship work andcourses, and I don't think my
work was any better than it isnow, when life is slower and I'm
more mindful.
(09:35):
And I'm more demure yeah,nevermind, it's very.
Look at me as taking the slowerpath.
It's very demure, very mindful,and I don't want to see
generations come up behind usstruggling the same way we've
(09:59):
been struggling.
I don't think it's necessary.
Liliana (10:03):
No, it's not Right.
So they get to start asking whyis this expected of me?
Who said that I have to do itthis way?
And even going back to an earlyepisode that we had in regards
to you know, when we challengesystems, when we're being
questioned right of why youthink differently, the question
(10:26):
shouldn't mean why you thinkdifferently.
The question is why you keepthinking the same.
Why do we keep insisting inthese boxes?
If the field is telling me youare so unique we even have a
thing like you have a unique setof fingerprints Then why I have
to follow these boxes that wereset up by a different mentality
, a different generation thatwas existing in different
(10:48):
circumstances.
Why do I have to keep?
Maria (10:51):
doing that Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, if we've learnednothing since the pandemic hit
it is that we can be creativeand still be successful.
Right, we don't have to keepdoing steps one through five,
the way it was written in atextbook before the internet was
invented.
Right, we don't have to abideby those rules anymore.
(11:13):
And I think the same is truewhen we look at the hustle
culture.
You know, I remember it wasn'tthat long ago when everyone was
like you know, boss, babying andlike getting a side gig and a
side hustle and like passiveincome.
And that.
No shame to any of those if youneed them, if you have a
(11:34):
capacity for them but I rememberit was almost like the norm and
you were like the odd one outif you weren't burning the
candle at both ends.
And Liliana and I are here totell you you don't have to.
You don't have to.
It does not have to be yournarrative.
Liliana (11:51):
You can still be very successful without engaging in
the hustle culture as it'spromoted heavily online and in
social media yeah, so even um,by the way, for all of you who
are listening, maria and Irealized we need to start
recording as soon as we get on,because we have these amazing
conversations and we're like,wait a minute, that's a good
(12:13):
point.
Maybe one day we'll do it, butnot today.
But we were even discussing,right, the hustle mentality was
invented by men for men and,let's be honest, gender wise,
there's a lot of differences inhow we respond.
(12:34):
In our field.
We created this hustle idea offrom school, from the get go,
telling you you cannot abandonclient.
Everything has to be done forthe client.
You're there to help the clientand we even have a conversation
of like who am I to say there'ssomething wrong with you and I
know better than you.
(12:59):
That is also wrong.
And then, from the mentality ofyou have to pay your dues,
there's a mentality that comesfrom past generations.
It has nothing to do with us.
Is the life more expensive now?
Hell yeah, is inflation killingyou?
I'm the first one to say.
But also everything that we seeonline.
It's not the truth, right?
Is it's filter?
(13:20):
Absolutely.
I will show you what I want youto see.
Maria (13:24):
It's very choreographed, it's not reality and even
reality is not reality, right,we know that, right, like
reality shows are not realityshows, right?
Uh, I think I was very Likereality shows are not reality
shows, right?
I think I was very young when Irealized that WWE was like a
soap opera.
This was all scripted Okay,cool, right, and I think you
bring up a good point.
(13:46):
I don't know the actualpercentage, but it's a very high
percentage of those in ourfield that are female and female
presenting right.
High percentage of those in ourfield that are female and
female presenting right.
If we were to have gone toschool for a male-dominated
field I don't even know whatthat is anymore Engineering,
perhaps, lawyer, I'm not sure.
I don't think they get the samemessages that we do, and not
(14:09):
just exclusive to us, but Iwould say that that probably
extends to all female majorityprograms and degrees.
I think there's a differentlanguage, right, and we don't
have two hours to go into this,but the hustle culture works if
you are not the emotionalstorage for everybody else,
(14:32):
right?
So when we talk about theemotional burden and the
household burden and all ofthose pieces that typically fall
on the woman, the female in therelationship, um, it's easy to
do hustle culture when all youhave to worry about is yourself
and your career.
Liliana (14:49):
Yes, reach right, which is not the reality of all of us
.
Years ago, I had the privilegeof having a conversation with a
female therapist who isconsidered an OG Hopefully not
enough information for anyone toknow who but the conversation
started with why do we do whatwe do?
(15:12):
And the conversation went to,went into go back to the origin
of mental health, which it wasby psychiatrists back then tend
to be male back then.
They work in universities backthen.
Right.
So it was like these dominant,privileged people who didn't
have to do a lot of thingsbecause they came from money or
(15:34):
had money or were in positionsof money.
To now, the majority of usdon't come from money and we go
to this field in order to I wasgoing to say help, but I hate
that word, that word in order toempower others with the idea of
don't go through what I wentthrough or I know what it feels
(16:02):
like, so on and so forth.
So that had me thinking of thehustle environment in regards to
.
Oh, that's right, the narrativehas not changed in our field
and it doesn't matter if it wascreated by one gender.
We bought into and we continueto buy into the idea of you
should be available.
You should sacrifice yourselffor others, which then returns
(16:24):
to is that was cussing us to getsick?
Is that was cussing for a lotof us to say bye-bye, say
something else, but I just moveon, bye-bye and switching
careers.
Think about how many people leftduring COVID, um, our friend
Kara has been um analyzing datain regards to what is the
(16:48):
average a year that mentalhealth therapists are leaving
the field because of theunrealistic expectations of
systems.
And then you know how are theydealing with that.
Maria and I are proof that webought into it and we are paying
the consequences for it.
And part of our mission, suchas in the title right, which is
(17:13):
how can we have theseconversations so that you are
empowered to choose differentbecause you can see the options,
versus the idea that you haveto do this because that's how I
did it and others did it.
No, let's break this cycle,absolutely.
Let's break the cycle.
Maria (17:30):
Absolutely.
We have so many more optionsand opportunities now that we
didn't have when we were inprogramming and in our early
years of career, that it wouldjust be I'm going to say a
naughty word it would just bestupid to continue to do these
cycles over and over again,right, like, if we're not
(17:50):
integrating the new, newinformation, the new technology,
the new skills, the newunderstandings, then what are we
doing?
What are we doing?
Um, and you know, we, we arecycle breakers and we want to to
upend the norm when the norm isno longer serving the majority,
and it just isn't right now.
(18:13):
Um, you know, speaking formyself, like you know, I have a
fantastic husband who has, youknow, he takes on a lot of the
household.
He's primary caregiver for ourkids, partly because of my
career like a good chunk of thatand then later on, because of
health issues.
He's had to maintain that, butyou know it's 2024 and we still
(18:35):
get comments of like oh, must benice that you have a husband
who helps out with the kids,must be nice.
You've got a husband that helpsout with the house.
It's like he lives there too.
Those are his kids too.
Why is why are we still usingthis language to try to put me
(18:55):
and women like me in a box thatdoesn't serve.
Anybody doesn't serve anybody.
Liliana (19:01):
I get the same but different.
I get like you will not be whoyou are unless you were married
to that man.
And I was like I did not seehim, like, stay in line doing
homework, but okay, you want togive him credit?
Okay, I didn't see him studyfor the test that I took, but
okay, let's give him the credit.
What I give him the credit isthat and it's a conversation
(19:24):
that I had with him.
That's funny, like I have neverasked him if it's okay, but
fuck it.
What I said was something thatI love about my husband.
Right, it's not that he took onthe dishes or he took the kids
to at that time, because my kidsare older now to an activity,
but that he allowed me, hecreated space so that I can
(19:46):
explore who I wanted to be,right, so I, so I was not just
the wife, the daughter, thetherapist that, like he, allow
space to explore myself andexplore him and the
conversations that we're havingis because of that.
But even he's breaking the ideaof the hustle and the
(20:07):
conversations that we're having,because we're both listening to
, or we were listening to, thebook we finished this weekend.
But the idea of like, is thathow we want to be now?
Do we want to continue with thenarrative of I mean, it's
supposed to be working eitherinside the house or outside the
house and maintain this statusquo to please others, or do we
(20:28):
want to be focusing on pleasingourselves?
And what is it that we want?
So it's not necessary to keepwith that mentality.
It's not necessary for all ofyou listeners to keep telling us
how great we have it because wehave husbands or you have wives
who sacrifice for you, or youhave significant others.
The idea is, can we become awareof the hustle mentality with
(20:50):
the comments that we make, theexpectations that we have, and
how system can replace us at anygiven second without giving us?
You know there's not advocatingthat it should, but it comes
back to do I see my worth, asBrenda Brown said.
(21:15):
Is that debatable for you?
That's not debatable for me.
I know my worthiness, and howcan I fight this in a field that
keeps telling me that in orderto be known, I have to go hustle
, that I have to sacrifice, thatI have to pay.
This is a whole scheme.
All of you out there.
(21:36):
As a speaker, I have to pay tospeak to you.
Maria (21:41):
That is no longer serving me, no, and because you brought
up Brene Brown.
The other thing that comes tomind and kind of our mission
with the podcast and, inparticular, with this around
hustle culture is that we're inthe arena with you.
We are in the arena with yousaying we don't have to accept
this any longer, and then if youwould like to be creative and
(22:03):
find a solution that worksbetter for you, we are all about
it.
We are here to be yourcheerleaders.
Let us know.
Drop it in the comments.
How can we support you in this?
Because it's hard to breaksystems and Liliana and I are
the first to acknowledge that.
We've got the privilege ofwhere we're at right now to have
these conversations, to makethese shifts and to make these
(22:23):
changes.
And you may not be there yetand, like no shame, if the
hustle culture works for you, doit.
God bless and Godspeed.
I don't know where you find theenergy, and maybe that's a
little envious because I don'thave that level of energy and
that doesn't have to be the norm, that doesn't have to be the
expectation.
(22:43):
You can find the path thatworks for you and your system
and your family and if you needsupport around that, we got you,
baby, that's why we're here.
Liliana (22:57):
So I love that you said that, because I already brought
the image of the Coliseum fromBrené Brown right.
Like we're there with you.
We're not sitting in thebenches giving you feedback.
We're not in the benches likesome associations, like telling
you what to do, like we're in ithere with you, telling you it
doesn't have to be that way andit can be however you want it,
(23:21):
because it has meaning for you.
Yes, absolutely.
That's where we want to go backto what is meaningful for you.
You're not abandoning clients.
If you don't respond on theweekends, you have a right to
take a weekend off.
You have a right not to respondafter 6 pm 8 pm, because you're
not in a crisis center.
You have the right to take sometime off in order to recharge,
(23:45):
in order to take care of you.
You have a right not to answera phone call when you're with
your family or when you'resocializing.
You have a right not to answera phone call when you're with
your family or when you'resocializing.
You have a right to take sometime off just because you want
to um and and you don't have tobe working.
What we're saying is you get todictate what's gonna work for
you.
We're not here to project likehe was done in the past.
(24:08):
We're here to say there's otherways.
And thanks to this book, thennone of us like, but it made us
aware and have this conversation.
It was like the other book too.
Come on, let's be real, wehated it, but we had amazing
conversations and difficultconversations of like okay, so
(24:29):
if this is not going to work forme, what will?
Maria (24:32):
And I think that's what I would love to see.
The title Dynamic Drive to mereally invoked this vision of
the drive that works for you,rather than just this
overarching generalist path andexpectation.
Right, it was really.
I was hoping it was more alongthe lines of you know, each
(24:54):
individual has to figure outtheir own drive, their own
motivation, their own call toactions and then find the ways
to sustain that whatever makessense for them.
Because that's what dynamicdrive like pulls up for me in
terms of an image, because mydrive is going to be different
than yours, liliana, as itshould be, and it's going to be
(25:17):
different for the people next tous and the people that we talk
to.
And so I think, maybe just kindof leaving on that note of find
your own path, don't be scaredto do it differently if it makes
better sense for you, and wewill always have this undertone
of like taking good care of you.
Liliana (25:38):
Yeah, because the other side, it's really expensive.
Girls are listening.
I have no idea the medicalbills that maria and I have
because it's really expensive.
However, we've been talkingabout this book and how you know
, we didn't like it.
The only thing that I did like,and the line that I keep using,
is something has to give, right, and as soon as she said it, I
(26:02):
was like oh yeah, so it's a linethat now I keep running, which
is something has to give.
I cannot do it all.
I don't want to do it all.
I will not be speaking in alltopics.
I cannot do it all.
Maria (26:14):
Something has to give and empower yourself to be the one
to make that choice, rather thanyour body choosing it or
systems choosing it for you.
Because something will have togive and I would much rather be
in an empowered position to makethe choice of what I'm giving
versus pushing into that wholehustle culture so much that it
(26:37):
is not a choice of mine anymore.
Liliana (26:40):
Which a lot of times is our case, and a lot of us who
have a dynamic disability,chronic illness, which, when my
body says not today, sister, nottoday, and guess what, I'm
going to lose income that day.
And I'm also going to have tolisten to my body because the
alternative is just I don't wantit to be the option anymore,
(27:01):
right?
So this may not be your case.
My hope is that you don't haveto deal with the medical stuff
that some of us are dealing with, but the idea is also to become
aware that you don't have toget there.
This is not the only way to showyour gifts, right, and there's
(27:24):
different ways.
You don't have to do it justbecause you had an old
supervisor I don't know if Icalled myself older, but if you
had someone meaningful in yourlife telling you that this is
the only way.
And when someone tells you youhave to pay your dues, run from
it.
Yes, run, run away.
When someone tells you that youhave to pay in order for you to
(27:47):
present, run from it.
You don't have to Unless youreally want to, and you will
find a way because there's abenefit to present, run from it.
You don't have to unless youreally want to and you will find
a way because there's a benefitto you, then you can do that.
But the idea that you have tohustle, you have to pay, you
have to prove that is no longerserving you, that is no longer
serving us.
So with that, is there anythingelse that we want to say?
(28:10):
I think we said it all.
I hope I don't think thatauthor of this book is going to
be listening to us.
There are some gifts such aslike I want that, yeah yes,
absolutely, yeah.
Maria (28:23):
And I also think it's okay to say like this didn't
resonate with us and because wecome out at a different you know
you and I are mental healthproviders and we look at the
world through those lenses.
She is not a mental healthprovider.
Does she have a lot of advicefor others in different fields?
Sure, yes, absolutely.
(28:45):
And I think the other thing islike, if nothing else that
you're learning from ourconversations is question
everything and only take on whatserves you and makes sense to
you and walk away from systemsthat no longer serve you.
Liliana (29:02):
That does not make you selfish, that does not make you
anything but taking care of you.
And if you don't take care ofyou, who will?
No way, if you don't advocatefor yourself, who will?
So the invitation today isplease take care of you and
advocate for you, and only dowhat works for you, because no
(29:23):
one is hustling for you, baby.
You have to take care of you.
Maria (29:28):
Until next time, take good care of you.
Liliana (29:30):
Okay, and if you want us to read another book, let us
know.
We're gonna get an endorsementuntil next time, bye.
Welcome, listeners.
Welcome to a bonus episode of ahero's welcome podcast.
I'm Maria Diego, your co-host,joined today by Liliana Baylon,
my other co-host.
Liliana (00:16):
Thank you for being here and not a play therapist,
but we adopted her.
Uh, she doesn't know yet, sheplays in different ways, in
(00:36):
different ways yes really funways, um, and we started a book
club um a couple of months andevery book that we have read we
have taken and haveconversations about it.
So this month, even though wehave not processed with our
group yet, we decided to talkabout this book because we
realized how it plays into ourfield.
(00:58):
So the book that we're readingis called Dynamic Drive and
we're having amazingconversations.
By the way, this is not topromote the book.
The author is not paying us forthis.
Maria (01:11):
This is not a sponsored episode.
Liliana (01:40):
It's hustle and we regarding having conversations
how this What other areas?
Maria (01:51):
I mean, it can go on and on and on, right, but we were,
and and just kind of like, andthen in perpetuity, right.
So you know, I think it'sinteresting too.
The title is dynamic drive, um,and I mean and spoiler alert I
mean, I did not love this book,um, I brought up a lot of things
for me and one of, me think,the sticking points for many of
us in our book club has beenthis it feels really
(02:16):
perpetuating this idea of thehustle culture and just renaming
it as drive and motivation, andmotivation.
I don't think
he So let's put it inperspective on how it applies to
mental health, which, by theway, spoiler alert, I also book
.
heook b t So, suggested thebook, book, and I was like,
(02:47):
like, I'm sorry, but this ideaof of, about you went to school,
and it was hassle, taking allthese classes, going to work,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
blah.
And you .
you ou maintain it becauseuniversities have unrealistic
expectations of us in ourmaster's programs.
And it gets worse, I heard inour PhD, if you decide to do
that which you don't have to,that's another topic.
But then you get out of school,um school.
(03:07):
Then you're an internship/practicum, and it's hustle,
hustle, hustle, because youstill have to go to school, you
have to go clients, you have tomake a living because, believe
it or not, you still have to paybills, um, then you're just
like pushing through and thenyou graduate, you are working
towards licensure, because everystate has different names for
(03:30):
it it names ifor and you getthose hours Right.
So if right ight So, LPC, youhave a set of requirements.
If you're an MFT social worker,you have another set of
requirements.
So you're hustling and youstill have to make a living and
you still try to have a sociallife.
If you have one, please let usknow how, send us a tip.
(03:55):
And then you get licensed, andthen it's now what?
So then it's a different kindof hustle, right, and then you
decide to spread out.
So you become a supervisor, youare presenting, and it's hustle
, hustle, hustle.
If you go for certifications,it's hustle, hustle, hustle, for
(04:17):
crying out loud everything ishustle.
And so we start to question several things around
(05:05):
we start to question severalthings around this, right?
So we start to question whetherit's necessary, right?
Is this truly benefiting usdoing the hustle?
Um, where, where does thisactually get us?
In the end of all of this?
And for Liliana, for you, andme, our questions really revolve
around what this is going to doto me to maintain this pace in
the fast lane.
Right, we've been very openabout, you know, our own medical
issues and how that is really anew lens for us that we are
looking to share with everybodyelse that you know, the hustle
culture is.
It's not it, right, it's not it.
You and I have shared our ownstories about how we have done
the hustle culture prior torecording.
I, you know, I even kind ofshared, like you know, with my
(05:26):
diagnosis.
It was inevitable.
But I wonder if I'm strugglingwith symptoms much earlier
because I was in the hustleculture, you know, for so long
that it took a toll on myphysical body, right?
Um, you don't have to stay tothe end of the episode.
(05:47):
I don't think we have to do thehustle culture.
I don't think that we have towork in really faulty systems
(06:09):
and sometimes that means we fallinto this.
I think what we want to shareis, when you're on the other
side, it becomes a choice andyou don't have to choose to do
that.
Liliana (06:23):
And you can still very much be successful in what you
want to do.
So then the invitation is canwe reframe, reinvent the
definition of what is successfor you?
Right, because is it.
Are you focused on making money?
Are you focused on a reputation?
Are you focused like, what isthe success line for you?
You know, coming back, I lovethat Again, maria, that you
(06:46):
started sharing, because I waslike I started thinking, too, is
mine could be also.
My health issues could have beenjust like, well, that's what it
is.
Well, the first one, I'm goingto say yeah, because it was
cancer.
The second one, major one, Iwas like I don't know, because
we have done so much testing andwe don't know what caused it,
to the point that, in thediagnosis is unprovoked.
I don't know, because we havedone so much testing and we
don't know what caused it, tothe point that, in the diagnosis
is unprovoked.
I don't know what that means,but you know.
(07:09):
And then the third stuff thatI've been dealing with in the
last year we don't know, but thereality is that when we are
working so hard with thismentality of hustle, hustle,
hustle because you have to,because that's the mentality
that we inherit as therapists.
(07:30):
Right, like, you have to payyour dues.
That's a line that we allbought into.
Like what dues?
We're not going to be done.
Is this like my student loans?
Am I ever going to pay them off?
We don't know, but the realityis no.
You know, we have the privilegeper se because we're on the
(07:52):
other side of like questioningright now.
Is this really what I want?
Do I want to be in thementality of I have to be
working in order to prove myworthiness?
I have to be working in orderto share with you what I need to
share, and Maria and I are inthe mentality of like, not if
it's costing me my health.
Maria (08:12):
Yeah absolutely Right, and so for all of our listeners,
remember, liliana and I areboth MFTs, which means we are,
we look at systems, and I thinkwe both take a lot of pride in
that.
We are cycle breakers.
Those statements like this isthe way it's always been you got
to pay your dues.
You know, this is just what'sexpected, um, but we are the
(08:34):
first ones in line to say no, no, thank you.
There has got to be a betterway.
I'm going to forge a better way, um, we're going to look at
other professions and find abetter way, but we're not doing
this just because this is howit's always been done, and so
part of our hope in having thisconversation, too, is you know,
(08:54):
are you falling into a trap thatyou don't need to be in Right,
recognizing that you may stillbe in systems that require this
of you and, if that's the case,empowering you to look at other
systems that do not have yousacrificing this right?
I mean, in my undergrad years, Iworked two full-time jobs and
(09:15):
went to school how, how, rightIn grad school, right,
internship, externship work andcourses, and I don't think my
work was any better than it isnow, when life is slower and I'm
more mindful.
(09:35):
And I'm more demure yeah,nevermind, it's very.
Look at me as taking the slowerpath.
It's very demure, very mindful,and I don't want to see
generations come up behind usstruggling the same way we've
(09:59):
been struggling.
I don't think it's necessary.
Liliana (10:03):
No, it's not Right.
So they get to start asking whyis this expected of me?
Who said that I have to do itthis way?
And even going back to an earlyepisode that we had in regards
to you know, when we challengesystems, when we're being
questioned right of why youthink differently, the question
(10:26):
shouldn't mean why you thinkdifferently.
The question is why you keepthinking the same.
Why do we keep insisting inthese boxes?
If the field is telling me youare so unique we even have a
thing like you have a unique setof fingerprints Then why I have
to follow these boxes that wereset up by a different mentality
, a different generation thatwas existing in different
(10:48):
circumstances.
Why do I have to keep?
Maria (10:51):
doing that Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, if we've learnednothing since the pandemic hit
it is that we can be creativeand still be successful.
Right, we don't have to keepdoing steps one through five,
the way it was written in atextbook before the internet was
invented.
Right, we don't have to abideby those rules anymore.
(11:13):
And I think the same is truewhen we look at the hustle
culture.
You know, I remember it wasn'tthat long ago when everyone was
like you know, boss, babying andlike getting a side gig and a
side hustle and like passiveincome.
And that.
No shame to any of those if youneed them, if you have a
(11:34):
capacity for them but I rememberit was almost like the norm and
you were like the odd one outif you weren't burning the
candle at both ends.
And Liliana and I are here totell you you don't have to.
You don't have to.
It does not have to be yournarrative.
Liliana (11:51):
You can still be very successful without engaging in
the hustle culture as it'spromoted heavily online and in
social media yeah, so even um,by the way, for all of you who
are listening, maria and Irealized we need to start
recording as soon as we get on,because we have these amazing
conversations and we're like,wait a minute, that's a good
(12:13):
point.
Maybe one day we'll do it, butnot today.
But we were even discussing,right, the hustle mentality was
invented by men for men and,let's be honest, gender wise,
there's a lot of differences inhow we respond.
(12:34):
In our field.
We created this hustle idea offrom school, from the get go,
telling you you cannot abandonclient.
Everything has to be done forthe client.
You're there to help the clientand we even have a conversation
of like who am I to say there'ssomething wrong with you and I
know better than you.
(12:59):
That is also wrong.
And then, from the mentality ofyou have to pay your dues,
there's a mentality that comesfrom past generations.
It has nothing to do with us.
Is the life more expensive now?
Hell yeah, is inflation killingyou?
I'm the first one to say.
But also everything that we seeonline.
It's not the truth, right?
Is it's filter?
(13:20):
Absolutely.
I will show you what I want youto see.
Maria (13:24):
It's very choreographed, it's not reality and even
reality is not reality, right,we know that, right, like
reality shows are not realityshows, right?
Uh, I think I was very Likereality shows are not reality
shows, right?
I think I was very young when Irealized that WWE was like a
soap opera.
This was all scripted Okay,cool, right, and I think you
bring up a good point.
(13:46):
I don't know the actualpercentage, but it's a very high
percentage of those in ourfield that are female and female
presenting right.
High percentage of those in ourfield that are female and
female presenting right.
If we were to have gone toschool for a male-dominated
field I don't even know whatthat is anymore Engineering,
perhaps, lawyer, I'm not sure.
I don't think they get the samemessages that we do, and not
(14:09):
just exclusive to us, but Iwould say that that probably
extends to all female majorityprograms and degrees.
I think there's a differentlanguage, right, and we don't
have two hours to go into this,but the hustle culture works if
you are not the emotionalstorage for everybody else,
(14:32):
right?
So when we talk about theemotional burden and the
household burden and all ofthose pieces that typically fall
on the woman, the female in therelationship, um, it's easy to
do hustle culture when all youhave to worry about is yourself
and your career.
Liliana (14:49):
Yes, reach right, which is not the reality of all of us
.
Years ago, I had the privilegeof having a conversation with a
female therapist who isconsidered an OG Hopefully not
enough information for anyone toknow who but the conversation
started with why do we do whatwe do?
(15:12):
And the conversation went to,went into go back to the origin
of mental health, which it wasby psychiatrists back then tend
to be male back then.
They work in universities backthen.
Right.
So it was like these dominant,privileged people who didn't
have to do a lot of thingsbecause they came from money or
(15:34):
had money or were in positionsof money.
To now, the majority of usdon't come from money and we go
to this field in order to I wasgoing to say help, but I hate
that word, that word in order toempower others with the idea of
don't go through what I wentthrough or I know what it feels
(16:02):
like, so on and so forth.
So that had me thinking of thehustle environment in regards to
.
Oh, that's right, the narrativehas not changed in our field
and it doesn't matter if it wascreated by one gender.
We bought into and we continueto buy into the idea of you
should be available.
You should sacrifice yourselffor others, which then returns
(16:24):
to is that was cussing us to getsick?
Is that was cussing for a lotof us to say bye-bye, say
something else, but I just moveon, bye-bye and switching
careers.
Think about how many people leftduring COVID, um, our friend
Kara has been um analyzing datain regards to what is the
(16:48):
average a year that mentalhealth therapists are leaving
the field because of theunrealistic expectations of
systems.
And then you know how are theydealing with that.
Maria and I are proof that webought into it and we are paying
the consequences for it.
And part of our mission, suchas in the title right, which is
(17:13):
how can we have theseconversations so that you are
empowered to choose differentbecause you can see the options,
versus the idea that you haveto do this because that's how I
did it and others did it.
No, let's break this cycle,absolutely.
Let's break the cycle.
Maria (17:30):
Absolutely.
We have so many more optionsand opportunities now that we
didn't have when we were inprogramming and in our early
years of career, that it wouldjust be I'm going to say a
naughty word it would just bestupid to continue to do these
cycles over and over again,right, like, if we're not
(17:50):
integrating the new, newinformation, the new technology,
the new skills, the newunderstandings, then what are we
doing?
What are we doing?
Um, and you know, we, we arecycle breakers and we want to to
upend the norm when the norm isno longer serving the majority,
and it just isn't right now.
(18:13):
Um, you know, speaking formyself, like you know, I have a
fantastic husband who has, youknow, he takes on a lot of the
household.
He's primary caregiver for ourkids, partly because of my
career like a good chunk of thatand then later on, because of
health issues.
He's had to maintain that, butyou know it's 2024 and we still
(18:35):
get comments of like oh, must benice that you have a husband
who helps out with the kids,must be nice.
You've got a husband that helpsout with the house.
It's like he lives there too.
Those are his kids too.
Why is why are we still usingthis language to try to put me
(18:55):
and women like me in a box thatdoesn't serve.
Anybody doesn't serve anybody.
Liliana (19:01):
I get the same but different.
I get like you will not be whoyou are unless you were married
to that man.
And I was like I did not seehim, like, stay in line doing
homework, but okay, you want togive him credit?
Okay, I didn't see him studyfor the test that I took, but
okay, let's give him the credit.
What I give him the credit isthat and it's a conversation
(19:24):
that I had with him.
That's funny, like I have neverasked him if it's okay, but
fuck it.
What I said was something thatI love about my husband.
Right, it's not that he took onthe dishes or he took the kids
to at that time, because my kidsare older now to an activity,
but that he allowed me, hecreated space so that I can
(19:46):
explore who I wanted to be,right, so I, so I was not just
the wife, the daughter, thetherapist that, like he, allow
space to explore myself andexplore him and the
conversations that we're havingis because of that.
But even he's breaking the ideaof the hustle and the
(20:07):
conversations that we're having,because we're both listening to
, or we were listening to, thebook we finished this weekend.
But the idea of like, is thathow we want to be now?
Do we want to continue with thenarrative of I mean, it's
supposed to be working eitherinside the house or outside the
house and maintain this statusquo to please others, or do we
(20:28):
want to be focusing on pleasingourselves?
And what is it that we want?
So it's not necessary to keepwith that mentality.
It's not necessary for all ofyou listeners to keep telling us
how great we have it because wehave husbands or you have wives
who sacrifice for you, or youhave significant others.
The idea is, can we become awareof the hustle mentality with
(20:50):
the comments that we make, theexpectations that we have, and
how system can replace us at anygiven second without giving us?
You know there's not advocatingthat it should, but it comes
back to do I see my worth, asBrenda Brown said.
(21:15):
Is that debatable for you?
That's not debatable for me.
I know my worthiness, and howcan I fight this in a field that
keeps telling me that in orderto be known, I have to go hustle
, that I have to sacrifice, thatI have to pay.
This is a whole scheme.
All of you out there.
(21:36):
As a speaker, I have to pay tospeak to you.
Maria (21:41):
That is no longer serving me, no, and because you brought
up Brene Brown.
The other thing that comes tomind and kind of our mission
with the podcast and, inparticular, with this around
hustle culture is that we're inthe arena with you.
We are in the arena with yousaying we don't have to accept
this any longer, and then if youwould like to be creative and
(22:03):
find a solution that worksbetter for you, we are all about
it.
We are here to be yourcheerleaders.
Let us know.
Drop it in the comments.
How can we support you in this?
Because it's hard to breaksystems and Liliana and I are
the first to acknowledge that.
We've got the privilege ofwhere we're at right now to have
these conversations, to makethese shifts and to make these
(22:23):
changes.
And you may not be there yetand, like no shame, if the
hustle culture works for you, doit.
God bless and Godspeed.
I don't know where you find theenergy, and maybe that's a
little envious because I don'thave that level of energy and
that doesn't have to be the norm, that doesn't have to be the
expectation.
(22:43):
You can find the path thatworks for you and your system
and your family and if you needsupport around that, we got you,
baby, that's why we're here.
Liliana (22:57):
So I love that you said that, because I already brought
the image of the Coliseum fromBrené Brown right.
Like we're there with you.
We're not sitting in thebenches giving you feedback.
We're not in the benches likesome associations, like telling
you what to do, like we're in ithere with you, telling you it
doesn't have to be that way andit can be however you want it,
(23:21):
because it has meaning for you.
Yes, absolutely.
That's where we want to go backto what is meaningful for you.
You're not abandoning clients.
If you don't respond on theweekends, you have a right to
take a weekend off.
You have a right not to respondafter 6 pm 8 pm, because you're
not in a crisis center.
You have the right to take sometime off in order to recharge,
(23:45):
in order to take care of you.
You have a right not to answera phone call when you're with
your family or when you'resocializing.
You have a right not to answera phone call when you're with
your family or when you'resocializing.
You have a right to take sometime off just because you want
to um and and you don't have tobe working.
What we're saying is you get todictate what's gonna work for
you.
We're not here to project likehe was done in the past.
(24:08):
We're here to say there's otherways.
And thanks to this book, thennone of us like, but it made us
aware and have this conversation.
It was like the other book too.
Come on, let's be real, wehated it, but we had amazing
conversations and difficultconversations of like okay, so
(24:29):
if this is not going to work forme, what will?
Maria (24:32):
And I think that's what I would love to see.
The title Dynamic Drive to mereally invoked this vision of
the drive that works for you,rather than just this
overarching generalist path andexpectation.
Right, it was really.
I was hoping it was more alongthe lines of you know, each
(24:54):
individual has to figure outtheir own drive, their own
motivation, their own call toactions and then find the ways
to sustain that whatever makessense for them.
Because that's what dynamicdrive like pulls up for me in
terms of an image, because mydrive is going to be different
than yours, liliana, as itshould be, and it's going to be
(25:17):
different for the people next tous and the people that we talk
to.
And so I think, maybe just kindof leaving on that note of find
your own path, don't be scaredto do it differently if it makes
better sense for you, and wewill always have this undertone
of like taking good care of you.
Liliana (25:38):
Yeah, because the other side, it's really expensive.
Girls are listening.
I have no idea the medicalbills that maria and I have
because it's really expensive.
However, we've been talkingabout this book and how you know
, we didn't like it.
The only thing that I did like,and the line that I keep using,
is something has to give, right, and as soon as she said it, I
(26:02):
was like oh yeah, so it's a linethat now I keep running, which
is something has to give.
I cannot do it all.
I don't want to do it all.
I will not be speaking in alltopics.
I cannot do it all.
Maria (26:14):
Something has to give and empower yourself to be the one
to make that choice, rather thanyour body choosing it or
systems choosing it for you.
Because something will have togive and I would much rather be
in an empowered position to makethe choice of what I'm giving
versus pushing into that wholehustle culture so much that it
(26:37):
is not a choice of mine anymore.
Liliana (26:40):
Which a lot of times is our case, and a lot of us who
have a dynamic disability,chronic illness, which, when my
body says not today, sister, nottoday, and guess what, I'm
going to lose income that day.
And I'm also going to have tolisten to my body because the
alternative is just I don't wantit to be the option anymore,
(27:01):
right?
So this may not be your case.
My hope is that you don't haveto deal with the medical stuff
that some of us are dealing with, but the idea is also to become
aware that you don't have toget there.
This is not the only way to showyour gifts, right, and there's
(27:24):
different ways.
You don't have to do it justbecause you had an old
supervisor I don't know if Icalled myself older, but if you
had someone meaningful in yourlife telling you that this is
the only way.
And when someone tells you youhave to pay your dues, run from
it.
Yes, run, run away.
When someone tells you that youhave to pay in order for you to
(27:47):
present, run from it.
You don't have to Unless youreally want to, and you will
find a way because there's abenefit to present, run from it.
You don't have to unless youreally want to and you will find
a way because there's a benefitto you, then you can do that.
But the idea that you have tohustle, you have to pay, you
have to prove that is no longerserving you, that is no longer
serving us.
So with that, is there anythingelse that we want to say?
(28:10):
I think we said it all.
I hope I don't think thatauthor of this book is going to
be listening to us.
There are some gifts such aslike I want that, yeah yes,
absolutely, yeah.
Maria (28:23):
And I also think it's okay to say like this didn't
resonate with us and because wecome out at a different you know
you and I are mental healthproviders and we look at the
world through those lenses.
She is not a mental healthprovider.
Does she have a lot of advicefor others in different fields?
Sure, yes, absolutely.
(28:45):
And I think the other thing islike, if nothing else that
you're learning from ourconversations is question
everything and only take on whatserves you and makes sense to
you and walk away from systemsthat no longer serve you.
Liliana (29:02):
That does not make you selfish, that does not make you
anything but taking care of you.
And if you don't take care ofyou, who will?
No way, if you don't advocatefor yourself, who will?
So the invitation today isplease take care of you and
advocate for you, and only dowhat works for you, because no
(29:23):
one is hustling for you, baby.
You have to take care of you.
Maria (29:28):
Until next time, take good care of you.
Liliana (29:30):
Okay, and if you want us to read another book, let us
know.
We're gonna get an endorsementuntil next time, bye.
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