December 19, 2024 • 34 mins
What if you could unlock the hidden resilience and healing power within children through the magic of play? Join us for an illuminating conversation with Kathryn Raley, an LPC Registered Play Therapist and supervisor, as she reveals her journey from working with adolescents to her profound discovery of play therapy with very young children. Kathryn shares her insights into the fears therapists often face when working with young kids and how the simple, yet profound act of play can bridge the gap between traditional talk therapy and the immersive, hands-on nature needed for effective treatment with the "little littles." Discover the vitality of engaging the whole family system in this transformative process to foster deep, lasting growth.
Ever wondered how therapy can impact not just the child, but the entire family? Kathryn delves into the importance of creating a collaborative environment that includes caregivers, emphasizing that therapy should be a team effort. By involving the entire family, even if caregivers aren’t actively participating, the positive effects can ripple through the whole system. From crafting cozy waiting areas to concurrent parenting groups, learn about innovative approaches that promote a welcoming and inclusive therapy space, reducing stigma and encouraging system-wide change.
Navigating the complexities of a child's home environment can be challenging, but Kathryn offers invaluable advice on maintaining compassion and empathy, even in the most difficult situations. Drawing from her extensive experience, including work with incarcerated caregivers and reunification therapy, Kathryn discusses the importance of avoiding judgment and fostering a balanced approach of confidentiality and collaboration. We also highlight upcoming events and resources, ensuring you have all the tools needed to support families effectively. Tune in to gain practical tips and profound insights that can not only transform your therapeutic practice but also touch the lives of the families you work with.
Contact Information:
instagram.com/kathryn2ndstar
www.2ndstarcounseling.com
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria (00:03):
Hello listeners, Thank you so much for joining us on
today's episode.
This is Maria LaCarrie Diego,one of your co-hosts,
I'm here today with me LilianaBailon, the second co-host, and
we are here with the amazingKathryn.
Catherine, how will you want topresent yourself to our
audience?
To?
Kathryn Raley (00:23):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm kind of excited.
I'm Catherine Raley.
I'm a LPC Registered PlayTherapist, supervisor, acs
Supervisor, love, supervision,love play therapy.
I'm in Lafayette and justreally passionate about
applications of play therapy foreverybody.
Maria (00:49):
I love that and my understanding is we're going to
chat a little bit today aboutyour passion for play therapy
with, like, the little littlesand their caregivers, which I
know many people feel reallyunsure about or uncomfortable
about.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhen did you find that passion
for the?
Kathryn Raley (01:06):
little littles.
You know, I think I think Ifound that passion as I was
working in the field my initialit took a few years my mentor
and my supervisor, dr TerryChristensen.
I think she has a passion forlittles and my original passion
(01:27):
was adolescence.
I come from a teachingbackground.
I taught middle school, highschool, before I was a counselor
and I just always reallyenjoyed middle school age up and
I didn't mind littles but Ididn't feel the passion.
And then, as I grew into thelanguage of play and into play
(01:48):
therapy, as Littles startedcoming to me more along with
their parents and caregivers andgrandparents and I found that
when I leaned into language ofplay, it was really satisfying,
very healing, very.
I know it's research-based andit always feels like magic.
Well, absolutely does it.
(02:11):
It's very organic for thelittles right.
Maria (02:13):
I think it logically.
It makes sense to me like thatwould be a nice place to start
with play, especially like fornew play therapists.
But there's a lot of I don'tknow fear and anxiety around
working with, like the littlelittles.
I wonder why that might be.
Kathryn Raley (02:34):
I think I think that when we meet our clients,
we are meeting children andfamilies at a really low point
for them, and I think thatpeople who don't understand the
resiliency and the strength ofchildren in general, like who
(02:55):
don't get to spend time withchildren.
They're worried about thecountertransference of
children's suffering.
They're worried about thecountertransference of
children's suffering.
They're worried about making itworse.
It's very challenging, I think,for some folks to not take
their work home and of course Itake my work home, quote unquote
(03:19):
sometimes but I think thatthere is a faith in play therapy
and in the resilience ofchildren as their own sort of
developmental phenomena.
They're a lot stronger than wethink and once you sort of get
into working with kids, youreally realize that they can
(03:40):
heal, they can get better.
It's not all on the can.
They can get better.
They're they.
It's not all on the therapistto make it all better, and I
think a lot of therapists worrythat they're not.
They won't be able to affectpositive change.
Liliana (03:54):
Love that.
Right.
When you asked Maria thatquestion, I started thinking of
our training.
So both of you started thinkingof your training.
It is so funny because we knowplay therapy is research based.
We know that it's in the play,not cognitive, not cognitive.
Yet Most of our training istalk therapy.
(04:16):
So a lot of people that comes in, of course they're petrified of
working with this population.
How do I translate that?
How do I translate what I know,which is a lot of talk therapy,
a lot of making sense of tothis population?
And then when I'm working withthis population, sometimes I
(04:37):
have to include caretakers inthe playroom.
So how do I translate that?
So you become the bridge.
So a lot of the new cohort ishaving a hard time.
I know I had a hard time.
I love that.
Catherine is like yeah, so Ithink it's that.
So I love, catherine, thatyou're like I'm finding this
passion on working with kids whoare three to five years old per
(05:00):
se and helping them becausethey're able to bounce back
faster and I'm gonna say thatbecause they're sponges, um, and
then when you're working withthe system, the keto does not
have to go home all alone,trying to share, in a way.
What's different?
You're working with the wholesystem, so the whole system is
(05:23):
seeing it in the room.
How powerful is that?
Maria (05:29):
yeah yeah, I think that is one of the other trepidations
.
Is the working with parentsright, like even if we are able
to get clinicians with playtherapy background and training
to like, okay, yes, I believe inthe power and play, I can let
go of the cognitive piece, I canreally be present and watch the
play and the healing unfold.
(05:49):
And then I have the parentsright.
And then there's just like Idon't know if it's fear, I don't
know if it's frustration.
I know in my own supervisoryexperience like some of it is
like they have a hard timeletting go of their.
The clinician has a hard timeletting go of, like their
frustration and feelings towardsthe parents.
(06:10):
Or we get a lot of still likethe drop off parent of like, all
right, I'll be back in 55minutes, fix my kid.
Kathryn Raley (06:18):
I don't want to be involved?
Maria (06:19):
Yeah, yeah, how do you?
What magic have you found tolike get the parents, the
caregivers engaged and involved?
Kathryn Raley (06:30):
This might be a long one, but I do want to say
thank you, the bridge.
I love this idea of being abridge.
Right before COVID, I went to aCCA conference, a Colorado
Counseling Associationconference, and one of the
speakers there really kind of abrilliant social worker had also
(06:53):
decided that they had gone intocounseling to work with
families and then had become sofrustrated with systems in
general, like larger culturalsystems, larger societal systems
, family systems, that theybacked out of counseling and
decided to do something else inthe service of mental health.
(07:13):
And so, as this person wastelling the story sort of their
own background, they made thiscomment like parents, am I right
?
And everybody at CCA, like 100people in the audience, you
could hear the general oh, youknow.
And I just remember thinkingholy cuss word, this is an ism,
(07:39):
this is a, we are down, we wantsomebody to blame for children's
problems and I think ascounselors we have to look to
hold a no shame zone ofresponsibility without blame and
shame, to a crippling shame,because how is that helpful?
So I just started thinkingabout how to both teach and
(08:04):
implement strategies and culturethat very mindfully includes
parents and still verynon-directive keeping them.
You know they want to drop themoff, fine, here's how that's
going to work, no judgment.
But when they're little likethree, my general rule of thumb
(08:24):
is potty trained, more or less.
I have worked with some kiddosthat are not quite potty trained
, which I'm always kind of like,okay, this is bad, I forgot.
But my general you know agegroup in my own head is potty
trained up, is potty trained up,and sometimes little people
(08:51):
want mom, dad, grandma,caregiver in the room with them,
and so I try to set up arelationship with parents.
That involves two or three atleast phone calls, perhaps a
meeting.
Come see the office, let's talkabout this before I ever meet
the kid, let's talk about thisbefore I ever meet the kid.
And I think that sets up acollaborative relationship.
And I'm very clear, like if youtold me I was a systems
(09:11):
therapist, I would not agreewith that.
Actually, I think I'm anindividual therapist but
collaborating with parentsaffects the system in a way that
makes my job with theindividual that much easier.
So really getting clear abouthow to invite a parent in before
I meet the kid and take themthrough, what a course of
treatment is going to look likeand what role do they want?
(09:35):
Do they want to be involved?
Do they want to be engaged?
Do they want to have a comfyplace, a little couch in the
room, and I also have a greatwaiting room.
The waiting room was actuallydesigned so that parents can
fall asleep, and many of them do.
They nap, they hang out, theyhave a tea, and some of them
will have a tea and breathe, andthen they'll join us for the
(09:57):
last half of the session.
I'm okay with that.
I really don't have a lot ofstructure on when parents are
regulated, kids are regulated,and I don't have a lot of
demands on parents in that way.
Until we get to get to knoweach other, I'm veering.
Did that answer that question?
Maria (10:14):
Yes, yes, and I'm already thinking of like oh my
gosh, yeah, a waiting roomdesigned for parents to have
that break for themselves.
Room designed for parents tohave that break for themselves.
Yeah, it also invites them tothat.
Liliana (10:31):
You're welcome to come in when you're ready to come in,
right, and I still, because I'meven thinking I was like, well,
it's either they're in orthey're out and you have such a
nice, kind offering for them tobe like.
Maria (10:40):
You need a moment, you can take a moment.
If you need the whole moment,you take the whole moment.
But if there's a point in timewhere you want to come in, you
can come in.
Kathryn Raley (10:50):
I think parents are torn between I should be
involved in everything and Ineed as much break as as uh, as
my, my child does, and they arebetter parents for it.
You, you know they're a littlemore.
They're a little more regulatedthemselves.
And I talk a lot aboutparenting from regulated state,
(11:13):
which is hard, so hard, so hard.
And never forget kids, littlelittles in particular, are
hardwired to dysregulate you.
When they feel dysregulated,they want the world to be
dysregulated with them and theygo to a lot of lengths so like
get, get the dysregulationaround them and different.
And then you know, of course,and that's every, every little
(11:36):
kid, so you bring in a littlekid who's having behavior
problems or has trauma or hassomething going on.
You know dysregulation is theirsafe place.
So they, you know, trying toget parents to really breathe
into that.
It's okay, this is normal.
Let's work with it.
Liliana (11:58):
I think what came to mind when you were sharing about
your waiting room is what abeautiful metaphor of let me
model to you.
What would it be like for youto model to your child?
You know, come in, you know youcan take care of you, you can
(12:18):
come in.
What a beautiful space,especially for a three, four,
five-year-old to say you don'thave to do something right away.
Right, you can come in and Iwill join you in the chaos or
the regulation or theco-regulation, but if you need
time, I don't have to be therewith you projecting or rescuing.
(12:38):
There's also space for this.
How beautiful that is.
Kathryn Raley (12:46):
Yeah, thank you.
Sometimes I don't have thewords to say it.
I just really recognize thatparents need some care too, and
they're not my client, and theyare, because my kids, my kids,
their kids you know that I'mprivileged to work with need
them.
They need their parents.
We're not trying to fix them inthe face of their parents,
(13:07):
we're trying to.
Something I talk to students alot about is don't it has to be
all of us me, client, caregivers, community against a problem we
cannot identify and it soundsso simple when you say it out
loud, but it's shocking in thefield, over and over and over
and over again, we have toremind ourselves it's all of us
(13:29):
against the problem.
It's not me and the parentscollaborating to like tamp down
on the kid.
Maria (13:36):
We got to get the kids buy-in, but we can't get the
kids buy-in without the parentsbuying yeah no, I love that, I
love that and I know, I know youdon't identify as a systems uh,
therapist, but the work that isso cute, it's, it's adorable,
um, but I think I think anytimewe look at the work that we do,
(13:58):
even individually, like, likeeven the child let's say you
have a three, four, five yearold and their parents are not
engaged they are, you know, theyare the ones that you know sit
in the waiting room and can'tfully come in we know that the
work you're doing is still goingto have an effect on the rest
of the family system.
(14:21):
Doing is still going to have aneffect on the rest of the family
system, right, um?
And we know that the more we inwe see change happen, the more
that the system, if it's notbought in, we'll try to tamper
that down, right, and like welike our homeostasis, we like
things to be, even if thehomeostasis is dysfunction,
right, like that is our, that isour safe place, um, and I think
you know, and perhaps withoutthe words or even fully knowing,
(14:44):
you being able to invite, likeyou take care of you and that's
going to help take care of yourkid, um, in just a very nice,
organic way.
That I think.
I think a lot of missedopportunities by many clinicians
, like, like, I'm considering myown like our own waiting room
right now and I'm like, yeah, no, I don't, we don't have that
invitation to them.
(15:05):
And what a nice, easy way toget some buy-in from those that
might feel a little morehesitant or, you know, have
their own traumas to get through, to be able to be present in
the room like we would like themto be beautiful yeah, I, I
recently well, not recently,it's been a couple years it
(15:26):
still feels like my new office.
Kathryn Raley (15:28):
I moved from my first office to my new office a
couple years ago and, um, manyparents I had this beat-up couch
, you know, secondhand beat up,refreshed and refreezed, you
know, to keep it limping along,could not wait to chuck that.
And several of my parents werelike do not get rid of this
(15:52):
couch, I love that couch.
They loved it.
And I was like I am buying youa new couch, don't you worry.
And they would just laugh.
And I mean I bought them a newcouch and parents would be like
this is nice, I like this.
And here's your fluffy pillow,here's your, you know, hand
sanding, you know, I just thinkI did my internship and initial
(16:17):
training at People House andPeople House has a big culture
of come in, have some tea and, Ithink, tempering that really
humanistic sort of feminist sortof way of thinking about
clients with some clinicalknowledge and some research and
some credibility.
We're always trying to threadthat needle and so the office is
(16:40):
very mindfully set up to be tobe welcoming them.
There's also a little section.
I don't know if you guys sawthis.
Did you see that article thatcame out recently on so called
glass children.
Oh yeah, so children that arehealthy but are jealous of their
peer, of their siblings, whoare in play therapy because they
don't need therapy but theywould love to be in therapy
(17:03):
because it looks like it's soamazing.
I'm actually thinking of ways to.
I do have a corner in mywaiting room for siblings that's
set up like a little craftycorner for them, you know, and
little ideas for parents to docrafts with the kids that are
waiting for the identifiedpatient's IP.
And I'm also sort of I'd love,in my next reiteration of
(17:24):
business, to think about how toaddress siblings in a way that's
accessible, you know, becauseparents and resources and
therapy can be expensive and Iwant to be mindful of that.
And also, do you got to be sickto get play therapy?
I mean, I just that might be abigger question for another day,
(17:45):
but there is a nice littlecrafty corner in the waiting
room for the siblings too.
Maria (17:52):
No, I love that.
I know we just this yearstarted to really hone in our
own, our community here.
So we're doing parenting groups, um, that are happening
coinciding with a child group,right.
So and they're all like, rightnow it's inside out.
Um, our first one was a blueytheme.
Um, right, because I get to buyin.
(18:14):
Uh, it's what the kids are into.
Um, but the parents go throughtheir portion, children are
going through their portion andat the end they come together
and we made a really consciousdecision that it didn't have to
just be the client-identifiedchild, it could be siblings
included, and that has been.
I think that has like extendedour reach with you know, it's
(18:38):
like an hour and a half once aweek for like six weeks, but
we're able to watch systemshifts and have a little bit of
that shame reduced from theidentified client, because now
everyone gets to be involved anda little less of that kind of
jealousy or even we've had.
We've had a couple of familieswhere they're like, oh, we were
(18:59):
thinking about bringing brotherin, but since we've all been
doing group, those behaviorshave decreased.
Kathryn Raley (19:05):
Right, right it's like, well, yeah, because clay
therapy is still fine, andthey're missing out and they're
going unintentionally, orpotentially unintentionally,
trying to up the ante, so theytoo can have that experience
Right right.
Liliana (19:20):
I'm wondering if anyone who's listening had this aha
moment that I just had with bothof you.
As you know, you were extension, which is it's funny because in
mental health overall we'llthink about how do we change the
stigma of mental health.
Yet you have to be sick quoteor have behavioral issues in
(19:40):
order for us to justify youbeing in therapy.
So we're actually adding to thestigma of these are the
requirements for you to be here,when in reality, we all know
that anyone can benefit fromtherapy.
You don't have to be in therapy.
As you two were having thisbeautiful discussion, I'm like
(20:03):
how do we change that?
To welcome, to explore, toorganize whatever is happening?
Because we all have dailystressors, including this kid, a
three-year-old trying to mastera new skill, trying to find
independence, like there's somany transitions happening.
It's not just for trauma, whichwe all have.
We have different kinds oftrauma.
It's not just because ofbehavior.
(20:24):
We all get in trouble becauseof behaviors.
Can we say that out loud?
I know I get in trouble quiteoften because of behaviors.
Maria (20:32):
You're just staring at me, liliana, I know, I know.
Liliana (20:36):
But what a beautiful invitation you're doing, Both of
you are doing in regards towhat about the siblings who are
not in and they're feeling likethey're missing out.
What if we change the stigma ofit?
The other thing that I wasthinking of, both of you were
talking, which is so, Catherine,I'm curious what for everyone
(20:58):
who's listening when you'reworking with this population?
I use the word bridge and I usethe word how do we translate
this when I'm working withsupervisors, but for you, what
is your favorite therapy modelto use with this population?
Kathryn Raley (21:24):
so, uh, I think it.
It speaks to both the questionsabout, uh, you know, the larger
question is what do we believetherapy is and who is it for?
I am very grounded in feministunion theory across most of my
treatment and union theory,despite young's many, many
faults around race, ethnicity,religion, all of those things.
Fundamentally the theory is afeminist theory, meaning taking
(21:47):
into account culture and largersystems of oppression, power, as
well as inner reservoirs, youknow from the unconscious.
And so Jung would say he wouldnot work with anybody until they
were 40.
I, I feel like that's kind oflazy.
I think, bless his heart, right, I can, very he's on my list of
(22:10):
people to meet, you know,someday, like, if I get to have
dinner with people living anddead, I'd really like to argue
with carl jung.
Um, I think I think kids are,you know, the material coming in
and the material coming out.
I'm really grounded in.
All behavior has a reason andall behavior has an ask, and so
(22:31):
and and there's this theory ofopposites sort of is at work,
meaning when kids yell at youall the time, there's a theory
of opposite that you can chooseto yell at them or you can
choose to model your yelling.
This must be important to you.
Is there a different way to askme?
You must need something reallybad.
(22:53):
What do you actually need?
Okay, you're still yelling.
Okay, this is important.
I'm waiting for you to not yellat me and then I can help you.
I can't help you and you yellat me.
And so, modeling that withparents in the one-on-one visits
, before I ever meet the kid, Isort of get a sense of behaviors
and then I start telling myselfa story about this very, you
(23:17):
know, relational thing happeningbetween parents and children
when they're little.
And you know, some people wholove attachment have said to me
oh, you're so attachment, soyou're so attachment based, and
I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, youknow, I think all the theories
(23:38):
kind of look a lot alike onceyou sort of get into them.
But for me there's this,there's this idea that all
behavior has a reason, allbehavior has an ask.
And when you are working withparents you're also working with
Do they understand the ask, thedemand or the ask of that
(23:59):
behavior, and do they understandtheir own reaction to the ask,
and so the collaboration therecan just be so rich.
And it's not counseling withparents, it's really not.
It sounds like it, it feelslike it.
It's really sort of askingparents to be respected as the
(24:20):
parent, as the person that isthe most important person to the
child, as the person that knowsthe child best.
But still stay the parent.
And I'm pretty clear about thetherapist is not the parent and
the parent is not the therapist.
You have got to.
You still have to parent.
You know you can't, you can'tbe the play therapist who says
(24:44):
you can choose to do anythingyou like and as long as you're
safe and I'm safe and the toysare safe and I'm here to let you
know like therapeutic allianceand relationship is not
parenting, but parents canborrow therapeutic alliance to
support their parenting fromlove instead of from discipline
and fear.
Oh, that's how I'm grounded.
(25:06):
Does that make make sense?
Oh, my God, it was so beautiful.
I can talk.
I'm sorry.
I'm such a good talker but Idon't know if I ramble, you know
.
No, it was beautiful.
Liliana (25:16):
It was beautiful, yeah, which I'm like.
No, yeah, and I think, and thatcan have a, you know, a larger
conversation in regards to thework that we do as play
therapists just working with theindividual, or are we do as
play therapists just workingwith the individual, or are we
systemic therapists?
Because we're working with thecaretakers too, and everything
that you just share is sobeautiful because you can say
(25:37):
I'm neither, I'm working withthe system, right, you don't get
to tell me who I am, but I'mworking.
But it was so beautiful the waythat you organized it.
In order to make sense of thisis a work that needs to be done,
(25:58):
not only to help the child, butto co-regulate the parent and
model the parent so the parentcan be curious about their child
.
Maria (26:12):
And for me, it just it displayed how you invite parents
without shame.
There's just no shame and theway that you are like I'm not
trying to be you and I don'twant you to try to be me.
We are going to come togetherto help your child because we
both have a vested interest inthe healing process.
Um, because I do think thatthere is a lot of I mean one
there's.
(26:33):
I think there's a lot of shamewhen you're a parent who's like
I have to take my child forcounseling, right like there
there's something wrong, right,quote, unquote wrong with my kid
.
Yeah, I have, I have messed upin some way, and that that shame
, that shame can come off asdefensive and dismissive and
trying to engage you in anempower struggle, and I love how
(26:55):
you can just simply disarm themof like I'm not trying to be
you and you're not trying to beme.
Kathryn Raley (27:01):
I need you.
Maria (27:03):
Yeah, I need you to be you so that I can be me and we
can do what I know we can dotogether for your child.
Kathryn Raley (27:10):
Do you guys remember that story that Lisa
Dion tells, when she says nobodylooks at their absolutely
perfectly newborn baby and saysI can't wait to take you to
therapy, right, nobody does that?
I mean, maybe we should.
Maybe that's the stigma we'retrying to address.
But you know, I I think,recognizing I had a parent and
(27:35):
it was a parent that I did notthink very highly of honestly
say something to me once at many, many years ago, when I was
very first starting out.
I said is there any barriers tothe work that we're hoping to
do that you want me to do withyour, your kiddo?
And this parent looked at meand said um, I, a lot of
therapists have made me feellike the worst parent ever.
(27:56):
Please don't, don't make mefeel bad about being a parent.
And I think I was just like,okay, and it really struck me.
It really struck me like nobody, I know purposely wants people
to feel bad.
But when a whole conference ofpeople says parents, am I right?
Like we're really passing downthis, this, you know this ism of
(28:20):
parents are to blame.
Parents are the bad people.
Uh, some I've talked to playtherapists who are like how do I
work with kids?
And then send them right backinto a toxic system.
Okay, well, you got to rethinkthat system.
You know I've worked.
I've done visits with kids toincarcerated parents.
I've done reunification therapy.
(28:41):
I have done the kind of workwhere parents only get to see
their kids, because of whatevercircumstances, once a week.
If I don't have any judgment, Ihave no judgment.
You know people are doing thebest they can.
The shittiest parent I know isdoing the best they can and
maybe they have lost the rightand the privilege to be with
their child.
It does that kid absolutely nogood.
(29:03):
To join the chorus of yourparents are terrible.
People versus your parents havemade massive mistakes and I'm
so sad that they don't get to bewith you every day and I'm sad
that you don't get to see them.
So how do we support them inthat?
And I know there's absolutesaround child abuse and sexual
(29:25):
abuse and those sorts of things,and it's case by case and I am
not saying those parents deserveany access to kids.
That is not what I'm saying.
But who are therapists If wedon't cultivate compassion and
empathy for the?
For you know people that haveno capacity for for themselves.
Liliana (29:46):
Absolutely yeah.
Kathryn Raley (29:48):
I don't know, I'm .
Maria (29:49):
I don't know You're, you're good, yeah, absolutely
the belief that people are doingthe best they can with what
they have.
And it's not all great, it'snot all great, it's not all
great.
Kathryn Raley (29:57):
It's very rarely great, right, but it doesn't
help kids.
No, it doesn't help kids.
Maria (30:02):
And I mean, and it doesn't help our field, right,
like if we're still trying tobreak down the stigma of therapy
and therapists, right, and wehave a whole collection of
therapists going, oh, parents,yeah, like how we got to get
past that because otherwisethere are going to be so many
children who aren't given theopportunity for help and healing
and so many families because ofthat fear that they rightfully
(30:27):
have.
If that was a collectiveresponse yeah, right, right,
right.
Liliana (30:34):
Ladies, as we're coming to the end, um, I'm thinking um
, what would be one takeaway,katherine, that you want anyone
who's listening to take?
I mean, you give so manynuggets and then two, please.
How can they get a hold of you?
What are you?
What are you doing?
How can our listeners stalk?
Kathryn Raley (30:53):
you.
Oh, I would love that.
I enjoy being stalked I in away, uh, professionally, thank
you, I.
Um, I think the takeaway is uh,you know, really, do some
self-work around, do someself-care and some self-work
around your own commitment tohelping families turn towards
(31:17):
each other against a problem anddon't get triangulated right,
teenagers taught me that veryearly on.
Do not get triangulated, keepthere is, there is a fine line
between confidentiality andcollaboration and we all have to
find that.
And the best way I know to findthat is in supervision and
(31:37):
groups and talking to othertherapists and community.
So doing that work and thendoing that work in community and
then nobody's perfect.
So keep trying.
Those are my nuggets, I think.
Um, if you want to find more,uh, my practice is called second
(31:58):
star counseling, the number twond star counseling, and I am at
um.
There's a lot of contactinformation on there and I'm on
all the social media thingswhich I check sometimes getting
better, uh, but I I'll check itmore if, if, uh, if, there's a
(32:19):
little more traffic there, soplease feel free to reach out
anytime.
Uh, my name is Catherine K A TH R Y N at
secondstartcounselingcom andI'll be at the Colorado
Counseling AssociationConference August 22nd and 23rd,
keystone.
I've got a couple ofpresentations that I get to be
part of and love conferencing,speaking of large scale
(32:41):
community, so it'd be lovely,lovely, lovely to see people
there.
Liliana (32:46):
Awesome.
So, please, any of ourlisteners, we will make sure
that we include Catherine'sinformation there.
If you are here in Colorado, ifyou want to come to Colorado,
please go to Keystone.
This is going to be an amazingconference and, catherine, thank
you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you Talking to ouraudience in regards to how to
work with not only little kiddos, but how to include caretakers.
Kathryn Raley (33:10):
Yes, Very welcome , thank you for having me.
Maria (33:13):
Yeah, no well, and I know Liliana's already emailing
you.
Kathryn Raley (33:18):
We'll have you back because we have way much
more to talk about with you, butwe really, really appreciate
you taking time with us today.
Maria (33:25):
Yeah, and until next time, guys.
Thanks, we'll see you.
Bye.
Hello listeners, Thank you so much for joining us on
today's episode.
This is Maria LaCarrie Diego,one of your co-hosts,
I'm here today with me LilianaBailon, the second co-host, and
we are here with the amazingKathryn.
Catherine, how will you want topresent yourself to our
audience?
To?
Kathryn Raley (00:23):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm kind of excited.
I'm Catherine Raley.
I'm a LPC Registered PlayTherapist, supervisor, acs
Supervisor, love, supervision,love play therapy.
I'm in Lafayette and justreally passionate about
applications of play therapy foreverybody.
Maria (00:49):
I love that and my understanding is we're going to
chat a little bit today aboutyour passion for play therapy
with, like, the little littlesand their caregivers, which I
know many people feel reallyunsure about or uncomfortable
about.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhen did you find that passion
for the?
Kathryn Raley (01:06):
little littles.
You know, I think I think Ifound that passion as I was
working in the field my initialit took a few years my mentor
and my supervisor, dr TerryChristensen.
I think she has a passion forlittles and my original passion
(01:27):
was adolescence.
I come from a teachingbackground.
I taught middle school, highschool, before I was a counselor
and I just always reallyenjoyed middle school age up and
I didn't mind littles but Ididn't feel the passion.
And then, as I grew into thelanguage of play and into play
(01:48):
therapy, as Littles startedcoming to me more along with
their parents and caregivers andgrandparents and I found that
when I leaned into language ofplay, it was really satisfying,
very healing, very.
I know it's research-based andit always feels like magic.
Well, absolutely does it.
(02:11):
It's very organic for thelittles right.
Maria (02:13):
I think it logically.
It makes sense to me like thatwould be a nice place to start
with play, especially like fornew play therapists.
But there's a lot of I don'tknow fear and anxiety around
working with, like the littlelittles.
I wonder why that might be.
Kathryn Raley (02:34):
I think I think that when we meet our clients,
we are meeting children andfamilies at a really low point
for them, and I think thatpeople who don't understand the
resiliency and the strength ofchildren in general, like who
(02:55):
don't get to spend time withchildren.
They're worried about thecountertransference of
children's suffering.
They're worried about thecountertransference of
children's suffering.
They're worried about making itworse.
It's very challenging, I think,for some folks to not take
their work home and of course Itake my work home, quote unquote
(03:19):
sometimes but I think thatthere is a faith in play therapy
and in the resilience ofchildren as their own sort of
developmental phenomena.
They're a lot stronger than wethink and once you sort of get
into working with kids, youreally realize that they can
(03:40):
heal, they can get better.
It's not all on the can.
They can get better.
They're they.
It's not all on the therapistto make it all better, and I
think a lot of therapists worrythat they're not.
They won't be able to affectpositive change.
Liliana (03:54):
Love that.
Right.
When you asked Maria thatquestion, I started thinking of
our training.
So both of you started thinkingof your training.
It is so funny because we knowplay therapy is research based.
We know that it's in the play,not cognitive, not cognitive.
Yet Most of our training istalk therapy.
(04:16):
So a lot of people that comes in, of course they're petrified of
working with this population.
How do I translate that?
How do I translate what I know,which is a lot of talk therapy,
a lot of making sense of tothis population?
And then when I'm working withthis population, sometimes I
(04:37):
have to include caretakers inthe playroom.
So how do I translate that?
So you become the bridge.
So a lot of the new cohort ishaving a hard time.
I know I had a hard time.
I love that.
Catherine is like yeah, so Ithink it's that.
So I love, catherine, thatyou're like I'm finding this
passion on working with kids whoare three to five years old per
(05:00):
se and helping them becausethey're able to bounce back
faster and I'm gonna say thatbecause they're sponges, um, and
then when you're working withthe system, the keto does not
have to go home all alone,trying to share, in a way.
What's different?
You're working with the wholesystem, so the whole system is
(05:23):
seeing it in the room.
How powerful is that?
Maria (05:29):
yeah yeah, I think that is one of the other trepidations
.
Is the working with parentsright, like even if we are able
to get clinicians with playtherapy background and training
to like, okay, yes, I believe inthe power and play, I can let
go of the cognitive piece, I canreally be present and watch the
play and the healing unfold.
(05:49):
And then I have the parentsright.
And then there's just like Idon't know if it's fear, I don't
know if it's frustration.
I know in my own supervisoryexperience like some of it is
like they have a hard timeletting go of their.
The clinician has a hard timeletting go of, like their
frustration and feelings towardsthe parents.
(06:10):
Or we get a lot of still likethe drop off parent of like, all
right, I'll be back in 55minutes, fix my kid.
Kathryn Raley (06:18):
I don't want to be involved?
Maria (06:19):
Yeah, yeah, how do you?
What magic have you found tolike get the parents, the
caregivers engaged and involved?
Kathryn Raley (06:30):
This might be a long one, but I do want to say
thank you, the bridge.
I love this idea of being abridge.
Right before COVID, I went to aCCA conference, a Colorado
Counseling Associationconference, and one of the
speakers there really kind of abrilliant social worker had also
(06:53):
decided that they had gone intocounseling to work with
families and then had become sofrustrated with systems in
general, like larger culturalsystems, larger societal systems
, family systems, that theybacked out of counseling and
decided to do something else inthe service of mental health.
(07:13):
And so, as this person wastelling the story sort of their
own background, they made thiscomment like parents, am I right
?
And everybody at CCA, like 100people in the audience, you
could hear the general oh, youknow.
And I just remember thinkingholy cuss word, this is an ism,
(07:39):
this is a, we are down, we wantsomebody to blame for children's
problems and I think ascounselors we have to look to
hold a no shame zone ofresponsibility without blame and
shame, to a crippling shame,because how is that helpful?
So I just started thinkingabout how to both teach and
(08:04):
implement strategies and culturethat very mindfully includes
parents and still verynon-directive keeping them.
You know they want to drop themoff, fine, here's how that's
going to work, no judgment.
But when they're little likethree, my general rule of thumb
(08:24):
is potty trained, more or less.
I have worked with some kiddosthat are not quite potty trained
, which I'm always kind of like,okay, this is bad, I forgot.
But my general you know agegroup in my own head is potty
trained up, is potty trained up,and sometimes little people
(08:51):
want mom, dad, grandma,caregiver in the room with them,
and so I try to set up arelationship with parents.
That involves two or three atleast phone calls, perhaps a
meeting.
Come see the office, let's talkabout this before I ever meet
the kid, let's talk about thisbefore I ever meet the kid.
And I think that sets up acollaborative relationship.
And I'm very clear, like if youtold me I was a systems
(09:11):
therapist, I would not agreewith that.
Actually, I think I'm anindividual therapist but
collaborating with parentsaffects the system in a way that
makes my job with theindividual that much easier.
So really getting clear abouthow to invite a parent in before
I meet the kid and take themthrough, what a course of
treatment is going to look likeand what role do they want?
(09:35):
Do they want to be involved?
Do they want to be engaged?
Do they want to have a comfyplace, a little couch in the
room, and I also have a greatwaiting room.
The waiting room was actuallydesigned so that parents can
fall asleep, and many of them do.
They nap, they hang out, theyhave a tea, and some of them
will have a tea and breathe, andthen they'll join us for the
(09:57):
last half of the session.
I'm okay with that.
I really don't have a lot ofstructure on when parents are
regulated, kids are regulated,and I don't have a lot of
demands on parents in that way.
Until we get to get to knoweach other, I'm veering.
Did that answer that question?
Maria (10:14):
Yes, yes, and I'm already thinking of like oh my
gosh, yeah, a waiting roomdesigned for parents to have
that break for themselves.
Room designed for parents tohave that break for themselves.
Yeah, it also invites them tothat.
Liliana (10:31):
You're welcome to come in when you're ready to come in,
right, and I still, because I'meven thinking I was like, well,
it's either they're in orthey're out and you have such a
nice, kind offering for them tobe like.
Maria (10:40):
You need a moment, you can take a moment.
If you need the whole moment,you take the whole moment.
But if there's a point in timewhere you want to come in, you
can come in.
Kathryn Raley (10:50):
I think parents are torn between I should be
involved in everything and Ineed as much break as as uh, as
my, my child does, and they arebetter parents for it.
You, you know they're a littlemore.
They're a little more regulatedthemselves.
And I talk a lot aboutparenting from regulated state,
(11:13):
which is hard, so hard, so hard.
And never forget kids, littlelittles in particular, are
hardwired to dysregulate you.
When they feel dysregulated,they want the world to be
dysregulated with them and theygo to a lot of lengths so like
get, get the dysregulationaround them and different.
And then you know, of course,and that's every, every little
(11:36):
kid, so you bring in a littlekid who's having behavior
problems or has trauma or hassomething going on.
You know dysregulation is theirsafe place.
So they, you know, trying toget parents to really breathe
into that.
It's okay, this is normal.
Let's work with it.
Liliana (11:58):
I think what came to mind when you were sharing about
your waiting room is what abeautiful metaphor of let me
model to you.
What would it be like for youto model to your child?
You know, come in, you know youcan take care of you, you can
(12:18):
come in.
What a beautiful space,especially for a three, four,
five-year-old to say you don'thave to do something right away.
Right, you can come in and Iwill join you in the chaos or
the regulation or theco-regulation, but if you need
time, I don't have to be therewith you projecting or rescuing.
(12:38):
There's also space for this.
How beautiful that is.
Kathryn Raley (12:46):
Yeah, thank you.
Sometimes I don't have thewords to say it.
I just really recognize thatparents need some care too, and
they're not my client, and theyare, because my kids, my kids,
their kids you know that I'mprivileged to work with need
them.
They need their parents.
We're not trying to fix them inthe face of their parents,
(13:07):
we're trying to.
Something I talk to students alot about is don't it has to be
all of us me, client, caregivers, community against a problem we
cannot identify and it soundsso simple when you say it out
loud, but it's shocking in thefield, over and over and over
and over again, we have toremind ourselves it's all of us
(13:29):
against the problem.
It's not me and the parentscollaborating to like tamp down
on the kid.
Maria (13:36):
We got to get the kids buy-in, but we can't get the
kids buy-in without the parentsbuying yeah no, I love that, I
love that and I know, I know youdon't identify as a systems uh,
therapist, but the work that isso cute, it's, it's adorable,
um, but I think I think anytimewe look at the work that we do,
(13:58):
even individually, like, likeeven the child let's say you
have a three, four, five yearold and their parents are not
engaged they are, you know, theyare the ones that you know sit
in the waiting room and can'tfully come in we know that the
work you're doing is still goingto have an effect on the rest
of the family system.
(14:21):
Doing is still going to have aneffect on the rest of the family
system, right, um?
And we know that the more we inwe see change happen, the more
that the system, if it's notbought in, we'll try to tamper
that down, right, and like welike our homeostasis, we like
things to be, even if thehomeostasis is dysfunction,
right, like that is our, that isour safe place, um, and I think
you know, and perhaps withoutthe words or even fully knowing,
(14:44):
you being able to invite, likeyou take care of you and that's
going to help take care of yourkid, um, in just a very nice,
organic way.
That I think.
I think a lot of missedopportunities by many clinicians
, like, like, I'm considering myown like our own waiting room
right now and I'm like, yeah, no, I don't, we don't have that
invitation to them.
(15:05):
And what a nice, easy way toget some buy-in from those that
might feel a little morehesitant or, you know, have
their own traumas to get through, to be able to be present in
the room like we would like themto be beautiful yeah, I, I
recently well, not recently,it's been a couple years it
(15:26):
still feels like my new office.
Kathryn Raley (15:28):
I moved from my first office to my new office a
couple years ago and, um, manyparents I had this beat-up couch
, you know, secondhand beat up,refreshed and refreezed, you
know, to keep it limping along,could not wait to chuck that.
And several of my parents werelike do not get rid of this
(15:52):
couch, I love that couch.
They loved it.
And I was like I am buying youa new couch, don't you worry.
And they would just laugh.
And I mean I bought them a newcouch and parents would be like
this is nice, I like this.
And here's your fluffy pillow,here's your, you know, hand
sanding, you know, I just thinkI did my internship and initial
(16:17):
training at People House andPeople House has a big culture
of come in, have some tea and, Ithink, tempering that really
humanistic sort of feminist sortof way of thinking about
clients with some clinicalknowledge and some research and
some credibility.
We're always trying to threadthat needle and so the office is
(16:40):
very mindfully set up to be tobe welcoming them.
There's also a little section.
I don't know if you guys sawthis.
Did you see that article thatcame out recently on so called
glass children.
Oh yeah, so children that arehealthy but are jealous of their
peer, of their siblings, whoare in play therapy because they
don't need therapy but theywould love to be in therapy
(17:03):
because it looks like it's soamazing.
I'm actually thinking of ways to.
I do have a corner in mywaiting room for siblings that's
set up like a little craftycorner for them, you know, and
little ideas for parents to docrafts with the kids that are
waiting for the identifiedpatient's IP.
And I'm also sort of I'd love,in my next reiteration of
(17:24):
business, to think about how toaddress siblings in a way that's
accessible, you know, becauseparents and resources and
therapy can be expensive and Iwant to be mindful of that.
And also, do you got to be sickto get play therapy?
I mean, I just that might be abigger question for another day,
(17:45):
but there is a nice littlecrafty corner in the waiting
room for the siblings too.
Maria (17:52):
No, I love that.
I know we just this yearstarted to really hone in our
own, our community here.
So we're doing parenting groups, um, that are happening
coinciding with a child group,right.
So and they're all like, rightnow it's inside out.
Um, our first one was a blueytheme.
Um, right, because I get to buyin.
(18:14):
Uh, it's what the kids are into.
Um, but the parents go throughtheir portion, children are
going through their portion andat the end they come together
and we made a really consciousdecision that it didn't have to
just be the client-identifiedchild, it could be siblings
included, and that has been.
I think that has like extendedour reach with you know, it's
(18:38):
like an hour and a half once aweek for like six weeks, but
we're able to watch systemshifts and have a little bit of
that shame reduced from theidentified client, because now
everyone gets to be involved anda little less of that kind of
jealousy or even we've had.
We've had a couple of familieswhere they're like, oh, we were
(18:59):
thinking about bringing brotherin, but since we've all been
doing group, those behaviorshave decreased.
Kathryn Raley (19:05):
Right, right it's like, well, yeah, because clay
therapy is still fine, andthey're missing out and they're
going unintentionally, orpotentially unintentionally,
trying to up the ante, so theytoo can have that experience
Right right.
Liliana (19:20):
I'm wondering if anyone who's listening had this aha
moment that I just had with bothof you.
As you know, you were extension, which is it's funny because in
mental health overall we'llthink about how do we change the
stigma of mental health.
Yet you have to be sick quoteor have behavioral issues in
(19:40):
order for us to justify youbeing in therapy.
So we're actually adding to thestigma of these are the
requirements for you to be here,when in reality, we all know
that anyone can benefit fromtherapy.
You don't have to be in therapy.
As you two were having thisbeautiful discussion, I'm like
(20:03):
how do we change that?
To welcome, to explore, toorganize whatever is happening?
Because we all have dailystressors, including this kid, a
three-year-old trying to mastera new skill, trying to find
independence, like there's somany transitions happening.
It's not just for trauma, whichwe all have.
We have different kinds oftrauma.
It's not just because ofbehavior.
(20:24):
We all get in trouble becauseof behaviors.
Can we say that out loud?
I know I get in trouble quiteoften because of behaviors.
Maria (20:32):
You're just staring at me, liliana, I know, I know.
Liliana (20:36):
But what a beautiful invitation you're doing, Both of
you are doing in regards towhat about the siblings who are
not in and they're feeling likethey're missing out.
What if we change the stigma ofit?
The other thing that I wasthinking of, both of you were
talking, which is so, Catherine,I'm curious what for everyone
(20:58):
who's listening when you'reworking with this population?
I use the word bridge and I usethe word how do we translate
this when I'm working withsupervisors, but for you, what
is your favorite therapy modelto use with this population?
Kathryn Raley (21:24):
so, uh, I think it.
It speaks to both the questionsabout, uh, you know, the larger
question is what do we believetherapy is and who is it for?
I am very grounded in feministunion theory across most of my
treatment and union theory,despite young's many, many
faults around race, ethnicity,religion, all of those things.
Fundamentally the theory is afeminist theory, meaning taking
(21:47):
into account culture and largersystems of oppression, power, as
well as inner reservoirs, youknow from the unconscious.
And so Jung would say he wouldnot work with anybody until they
were 40.
I, I feel like that's kind oflazy.
I think, bless his heart, right, I can, very he's on my list of
(22:10):
people to meet, you know,someday, like, if I get to have
dinner with people living anddead, I'd really like to argue
with carl jung.
Um, I think I think kids are,you know, the material coming in
and the material coming out.
I'm really grounded in.
All behavior has a reason andall behavior has an ask, and so
(22:31):
and and there's this theory ofopposites sort of is at work,
meaning when kids yell at youall the time, there's a theory
of opposite that you can chooseto yell at them or you can
choose to model your yelling.
This must be important to you.
Is there a different way to askme?
You must need something reallybad.
(22:53):
What do you actually need?
Okay, you're still yelling.
Okay, this is important.
I'm waiting for you to not yellat me and then I can help you.
I can't help you and you yellat me.
And so, modeling that withparents in the one-on-one visits
, before I ever meet the kid, Isort of get a sense of behaviors
and then I start telling myselfa story about this very, you
(23:17):
know, relational thing happeningbetween parents and children
when they're little.
And you know, some people wholove attachment have said to me
oh, you're so attachment, soyou're so attachment based, and
I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, youknow, I think all the theories
(23:38):
kind of look a lot alike onceyou sort of get into them.
But for me there's this,there's this idea that all
behavior has a reason, allbehavior has an ask.
And when you are working withparents you're also working with
Do they understand the ask, thedemand or the ask of that
(23:59):
behavior, and do they understandtheir own reaction to the ask,
and so the collaboration therecan just be so rich.
And it's not counseling withparents, it's really not.
It sounds like it, it feelslike it.
It's really sort of askingparents to be respected as the
(24:20):
parent, as the person that isthe most important person to the
child, as the person that knowsthe child best.
But still stay the parent.
And I'm pretty clear about thetherapist is not the parent and
the parent is not the therapist.
You have got to.
You still have to parent.
You know you can't, you can'tbe the play therapist who says
(24:44):
you can choose to do anythingyou like and as long as you're
safe and I'm safe and the toysare safe and I'm here to let you
know like therapeutic allianceand relationship is not
parenting, but parents canborrow therapeutic alliance to
support their parenting fromlove instead of from discipline
and fear.
Oh, that's how I'm grounded.
(25:06):
Does that make make sense?
Oh, my God, it was so beautiful.
I can talk.
I'm sorry.
I'm such a good talker but Idon't know if I ramble, you know
.
No, it was beautiful.
Liliana (25:16):
It was beautiful, yeah, which I'm like.
No, yeah, and I think, and thatcan have a, you know, a larger
conversation in regards to thework that we do as play
therapists just working with theindividual, or are we do as
play therapists just workingwith the individual, or are we
systemic therapists?
Because we're working with thecaretakers too, and everything
that you just share is sobeautiful because you can say
(25:37):
I'm neither, I'm working withthe system, right, you don't get
to tell me who I am, but I'mworking.
But it was so beautiful the waythat you organized it.
In order to make sense of thisis a work that needs to be done,
(25:58):
not only to help the child, butto co-regulate the parent and
model the parent so the parentcan be curious about their child
.
Maria (26:12):
And for me, it just it displayed how you invite parents
without shame.
There's just no shame and theway that you are like I'm not
trying to be you and I don'twant you to try to be me.
We are going to come togetherto help your child because we
both have a vested interest inthe healing process.
Um, because I do think thatthere is a lot of I mean one
there's.
(26:33):
I think there's a lot of shamewhen you're a parent who's like
I have to take my child forcounseling, right like there
there's something wrong, right,quote, unquote wrong with my kid
.
Yeah, I have, I have messed upin some way, and that that shame
, that shame can come off asdefensive and dismissive and
trying to engage you in anempower struggle, and I love how
(26:55):
you can just simply disarm themof like I'm not trying to be
you and you're not trying to beme.
Kathryn Raley (27:01):
I need you.
Maria (27:03):
Yeah, I need you to be you so that I can be me and we
can do what I know we can dotogether for your child.
Kathryn Raley (27:10):
Do you guys remember that story that Lisa
Dion tells, when she says nobodylooks at their absolutely
perfectly newborn baby and saysI can't wait to take you to
therapy, right, nobody does that?
I mean, maybe we should.
Maybe that's the stigma we'retrying to address.
But you know, I I think,recognizing I had a parent and
(27:35):
it was a parent that I did notthink very highly of honestly
say something to me once at many, many years ago, when I was
very first starting out.
I said is there any barriers tothe work that we're hoping to
do that you want me to do withyour, your kiddo?
And this parent looked at meand said um, I, a lot of
therapists have made me feellike the worst parent ever.
(27:56):
Please don't, don't make mefeel bad about being a parent.
And I think I was just like,okay, and it really struck me.
It really struck me like nobody, I know purposely wants people
to feel bad.
But when a whole conference ofpeople says parents, am I right?
Like we're really passing downthis, this, you know this ism of
(28:20):
parents are to blame.
Parents are the bad people.
Uh, some I've talked to playtherapists who are like how do I
work with kids?
And then send them right backinto a toxic system.
Okay, well, you got to rethinkthat system.
You know I've worked.
I've done visits with kids toincarcerated parents.
I've done reunification therapy.
(28:41):
I have done the kind of workwhere parents only get to see
their kids, because of whatevercircumstances, once a week.
If I don't have any judgment, Ihave no judgment.
You know people are doing thebest they can.
The shittiest parent I know isdoing the best they can and
maybe they have lost the rightand the privilege to be with
their child.
It does that kid absolutely nogood.
(29:03):
To join the chorus of yourparents are terrible.
People versus your parents havemade massive mistakes and I'm
so sad that they don't get to bewith you every day and I'm sad
that you don't get to see them.
So how do we support them inthat?
And I know there's absolutesaround child abuse and sexual
(29:25):
abuse and those sorts of things,and it's case by case and I am
not saying those parents deserveany access to kids.
That is not what I'm saying.
But who are therapists If wedon't cultivate compassion and
empathy for the?
For you know people that haveno capacity for for themselves.
Liliana (29:46):
Absolutely yeah.
Kathryn Raley (29:48):
I don't know, I'm .
Maria (29:49):
I don't know You're, you're good, yeah, absolutely
the belief that people are doingthe best they can with what
they have.
And it's not all great, it'snot all great, it's not all
great.
Kathryn Raley (29:57):
It's very rarely great, right, but it doesn't
help kids.
No, it doesn't help kids.
Maria (30:02):
And I mean, and it doesn't help our field, right,
like if we're still trying tobreak down the stigma of therapy
and therapists, right, and wehave a whole collection of
therapists going, oh, parents,yeah, like how we got to get
past that because otherwisethere are going to be so many
children who aren't given theopportunity for help and healing
and so many families because ofthat fear that they rightfully
(30:27):
have.
If that was a collectiveresponse yeah, right, right,
right.
Liliana (30:34):
Ladies, as we're coming to the end, um, I'm thinking um
, what would be one takeaway,katherine, that you want anyone
who's listening to take?
I mean, you give so manynuggets and then two, please.
How can they get a hold of you?
What are you?
What are you doing?
How can our listeners stalk?
Kathryn Raley (30:53):
you.
Oh, I would love that.
I enjoy being stalked I in away, uh, professionally, thank
you, I.
Um, I think the takeaway is uh,you know, really, do some
self-work around, do someself-care and some self-work
around your own commitment tohelping families turn towards
(31:17):
each other against a problem anddon't get triangulated right,
teenagers taught me that veryearly on.
Do not get triangulated, keepthere is, there is a fine line
between confidentiality andcollaboration and we all have to
find that.
And the best way I know to findthat is in supervision and
(31:37):
groups and talking to othertherapists and community.
So doing that work and thendoing that work in community and
then nobody's perfect.
So keep trying.
Those are my nuggets, I think.
Um, if you want to find more,uh, my practice is called second
(31:58):
star counseling, the number twond star counseling, and I am at
um.
There's a lot of contactinformation on there and I'm on
all the social media thingswhich I check sometimes getting
better, uh, but I I'll check itmore if, if, uh, if, there's a
(32:19):
little more traffic there, soplease feel free to reach out
anytime.
Uh, my name is Catherine K A TH R Y N at
secondstartcounselingcom andI'll be at the Colorado
Counseling AssociationConference August 22nd and 23rd,
keystone.
I've got a couple ofpresentations that I get to be
part of and love conferencing,speaking of large scale
(32:41):
community, so it'd be lovely,lovely, lovely to see people
there.
Liliana (32:46):
Awesome.
So, please, any of ourlisteners, we will make sure
that we include Catherine'sinformation there.
If you are here in Colorado, ifyou want to come to Colorado,
please go to Keystone.
This is going to be an amazingconference and, catherine, thank
you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you Talking to ouraudience in regards to how to
work with not only little kiddos, but how to include caretakers.
Kathryn Raley (33:10):
Yes, Very welcome , thank you for having me.
Maria (33:13):
Yeah, no well, and I know Liliana's already emailing
you.
Kathryn Raley (33:18):
We'll have you back because we have way much
more to talk about with you, butwe really, really appreciate
you taking time with us today.
Maria (33:25):
Yeah, and until next time, guys.
Thanks, we'll see you.
Bye.
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