May 22, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Meyleen Velasquez, an inspiring Latina clinician, joins us to share her profound journey in mental health, shaped by her own life with vitiligo and her dedication to working with perinatal and early relational health. Embarking on this path in Miami, she was one of the few Spanish-speaking clinicians, leading her to specialize in play therapy. We explore her newly published book, "What Therapists Need to Know About Perinatal and Early Relational Health," which provides an anti-oppressive framework for supporting pregnant individuals and families with young children. Listen as Dr. Velasquez emphasizes the importance of recognizing caregivers as whole individuals beyond their parenting roles and how this perspective enriches family dynamics and therapeutic outcomes.
Reflective practice takes center stage as we discuss its critical role in infant mental health, highlighting the significance of reflective supervision and consultation in challenging embedded ableism within mental health fields. Dr. Velasquez encourages us to question dominant parenting style narratives and embrace cultural sensitivity by understanding family dynamics within their unique contexts. Together, we advocate for an inclusive approach that acknowledges diverse family structures, from multi-generational households to LGBTQ+ families. We also address the limitations of traditional theories and academia in adapting to these evolving dynamics, underscoring the need for heart-centered practices to build meaningful connections within the therapeutic community. Join us as we aim to transform the landscape of family mental health with openness and curiosity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
welcome listeners back for another episode of a
hero's welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, maria laquerdiego, and I am here with my
lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's me.
I was gonna say it's my link,but no, it's me, liliana baylor,
and we are here with a specialguest, dr mylene velasquez.
For all of you, um, who arethere listening, um, first of
all, I I'm going to say she'samazing.
But, mylene, besides being adoctor, what else do you want
everyone else who's listening tous to know about you?
How do you want to introduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Sure, I am an immigrant Latina living in the
US.
I navigated most of my life ina brown body, so I say I'm a
brown clinician and I navigatethe world with vitiligo.
It's an autoimmune conditionwhere your immune system attacks
the cells that produce melanin.
(00:53):
For me, it developed when I was16 with two tiny little spots
under my eye, and when I wasaround 28 years old it just
moved exponentially quickly.
And so I share that becauseit's an important part of my
identity and how I navigate theworld.
In my work, I live at theintersection of perinatal infant
(01:15):
play therapy and anti-racistand anti-oppressive practices.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Thanks Huge.
So that's how I met May maylene.
We're both migrants, um, we haddiscussions in regards to what
is it like to live in the us,and either acculturating or
assimilating, and I think oneday we'll bring you back so that
we can have this beautifuldiscussion, um, especially in a
society that struggles with that, especially when you're serving
(01:42):
this population as well.
But for today, do you want toshare with our audience what is
it that we're going to bediscussing?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I can share.
I'm excited we're going to betalking about a book that I just
published this July and it'scalled what Therapists Need to
Know About Perinatal and EarlyRelational Health and it's an
anti-oppressive guide to workingwith perinatal folks, that's,
(02:11):
pregnancy and postpartum folks,their babies and their young
children.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Thank you.
It still feels pretty surreal.
It still feels like I'm talkingabout someone else, Like I'm
like yeah, yeah, I'm totallythis lady who published the book
.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm totally this lady who got a doctorate degree and
I published a book.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Little girl from Venezuela.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's right baby, Venezuela, that's right baby.
So I'm curious how did you pickthis as your?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
specialty and your interest.
How did that happen?
Oh yeah, that's such a goodquestion because it's kind of my
journey into the field.
When I graduated with mybachelor's degree, I started
working at a community mentalhealth organization, and this is
2006.
And I was doing psychosocialassessments.
(03:11):
And then, because I spokeSpanish, and now this is in
Miami where there's a lot ofSpanish-speaking folks, but even
so, you see sort of thediscrepancies among who are the
providers that have access tothings and you know who are the
bilingual community, that theproviders that have access to
things and you know who are thebilingual community that don't
always have access to things.
So because I was one of theonly Spanish speaking providers,
(03:32):
I was asked to run a group andthis was an outpatient substance
use disorder group, and so Iwas like sure, what do I do?
And so that kind of started myjourney.
The next year I enrolled in amaster's program and I got an
MSW and I was thinking that Iwas going to focus on working
(03:55):
with folks with substance usedisorder and also with folks
that had experiencedinterpartner violence, folks
that had experiencedinter-partner violence.
What ended up happening is thatI started a residential job and
, seeing the lack of supportthat was provided for people,
(04:15):
how folks were coming into thisresidential program.
There wasn't a lot of holdingor I wasn't sure what we were
actually doing.
And then folks went out intothe community and then came
right back in and so I startedto think about how can I work
(04:35):
with folks maybe a littleyounger earlier on and I got a
job doing therapeutic homevisits and so I was going to the
(05:09):
homes was to do that kind ofwork.
I remember asking my supervisorfor some tools and activities
that I can do with the familiesand my supervisor said you can
create your own.
And so I'm sure this is notwhat my supervisor meant at the
time.
But I was like I don't knowwhat I'm doing.
My supervisor doesn't know whatthey're doing.
(05:31):
Like, what do I do?
So I went online and it waslike play therapy training, and
so I was very lucky to havegrown up as a clinician in Miami
around a time that there weretons, tons of free, grant funded
, accessible training for us.
So I took my introductions playtherapy.
(05:53):
And so I took an intro to playtherapy and I was like, oh yeah,
this is my jam, I love it.
And I got connected with a 72hourhour play therapy training
course that included supervision.
So you were recorded, yoursupervisors were there and it
was no cost to me, which waslike that is unheard of.
(06:15):
Had that not been the case, Iwouldn't be here, like y'all
would be here, I wouldn't behere.
From there, I started working ata shelter for women and
children and I started to seethat a lot of folks had babies
and were pregnant and I was like, what do I do?
(06:35):
So I went online and I'm likebaby training and I found a
training that's called FuzzyBaby, and that training actually
shifted the whole trajectory ofmy career and I fell in love
with the field of infant mentalhealth, which is also called
early relational health.
And then, from there, I startedto notice like, okay, there's a
(06:58):
lot of focus on the babies,which is needed right, because
we need caregivers to beprotective and secure and
reliable caregivers to to theirchildren.
Um, and there wasn't this pieceof like the caregiver as an
individual with a separateidentity from being this child's
(07:21):
parent, like I felt like thatwas sort of missing.
So again I went online and I'mlike, and I found a training by
Perinatal Support WashingtonPerinatal Support Washington no.
Postpartum SupportInternational.
Perinatal Support Washington iswhere I am now.
That's the organization, that'sthe branch of Postpartum
(07:43):
Support International that is inWashington state.
But I found a training by PSIand I was like, oh, I love this.
So most of my work is aroundsupporting pregnant and
postpartum folks and theirlittle ones.
How the anti-racist andanti-oppressive lens came in One
(08:05):
.
It's like my lived experience.
But when I started doingleadership work, I was also.
I also had like anotherexperience of being whiplash and
sort of coming to like a reallystrong break of wow.
Like the things that folks say,like when I'm in the room and
(08:31):
like they're talking about meand my community and they're
talking about other communitiesthat I'm not a member of, but
how do I navigate this?
And so that that led me intoanother journey.
So that's, that's my.
You know how we say like tomake a long story short.
So, this is like to make a longstory.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
long, that was that was sad, but I think that is the
call right Before we jump in.
I think that is a call and Ithink that's why I love
connecting with you, because Ithink for both of us was going
to trainings or reading booksand realizing that there's a lot
of stereotypes about us.
Realizing that there's a lot ofstereotypes about us, not just
(09:14):
females the three of us, gender,gender inequality but also as
latinas.
And then if you add the migrantlabel, then we don't like how
we've been portrayed, not inacademia, not in mental health
trainings.
And then you and I both of ushave discussed like fuck no, and
let me go do this instead.
(09:35):
So we're challenging when itcomes to, you know, being
anti-oppressive.
It's not the idea that I rejectyou or I, but it's like I
disagree with you.
And are you open for anotherperspective that I can offer?
And if we're individuals and wewant to attend to the
(09:58):
individual, can you not put usinto boxes?
Because there's no such thing,and I think that's part of our
work, right?
But coming back to I even lovewhat you're discussing, which is
that's true we tend to payattention to when we're talking
about working with earlyrelationship help.
(10:20):
We tend to and I have.
This has been my pitch in angersince I was pregnant.
I'm going to put it out therejust for all of you to know,
because I'm still resentful,even though my kid is 26 now and
youngest is 21, which is when Iwas pregnant.
Everyone wanted to touch mystomach and everyone was talking
, which is when I say no andpeople are like, oh, but why?
I was like because this is mybody, can you ask for consent?
(10:43):
And if I said no, don't touchmy stomach, like, don't touch it
, but then too, the attentionwas on the child, not on me.
And then giving birth, then theattention goes to the child and
as the mother left behind.
So then society says do youhave an identity?
But I don't, because it goesfrom significant other.
(11:05):
If you are in a relationship tomother of, no one pays
attention to you, right?
And then society says you haveto be all these things and do
all these things.
And then we're not payingattention to the mental health
of the mother and I love how youput it.
I even like highlighted whichis the early relationship help,
(11:28):
which is how are you doing withall these adjustments around you
?
Are you taking care of yourbody as it's been going through
so many transitions.
And I see you.
And how can I support you?
I see that both of you are notand I was like great, I'm
(11:50):
preaching to the choir.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So I mean, honestly, what's coming up for me and this
just unlocked a memory that Iclearly have pushed aside so
both of my children are adopted.
And what just came up for mewhen you said that Liliana was
one of their first checkups withmy son, who's my oldest?
(12:13):
The practitioner's assistant itwasn't the doctor at the time,
but the practitioner's assistant.
Right, they come in, they weighthe baby, they're doing their
thing, and I got a, you know, aquick like a how are you holding
up up?
And then she's like flippingthrough the chart right and she
goes oh, that's right, that'sright, this, this one's adopted.
(12:37):
How lucky for you that you mustnot be so exhausted oh, that's a
microaggression in so intensitylevels yeah, but for me that's
what came up and I was like andI mean, clearly he's nine now as
we're recording, like that hasbeen like pushed aside.
(12:59):
But I, for me, it was like, oh,I didn't, like I didn't
experience that and I think inback of my mind that was it was
because it was an adoptionsituation.
Now, knowing that that's kindof their baseline anyway, right,
like no one's asking about howthe parents are holding up,
(13:22):
right, we all make jokes aboutlike oh, once the baby sleeps
through the night, or sleep whenthe baby sleeps, and like all
of these little things, but noneof it is actually rooted in.
Are you okay?
Are you taking care of you sothat you can take care of baby?
The expectation and even thejokes like double down on you,
(13:44):
sacrifice everything for thebaby, you no longer matter, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, I can say that for the folks in the back.
There's this idea that we oftentalk about in the perinatal
world, about how the you know,when the person is pregnant,
right, it's like a piece ofcandy, and so when the child is
born, right, and when the childjoins the family, we take the
(14:10):
candy and we throw away thewrapper, right.
And I'm hearing your experienceand I'm like it is not only
harmful but also incorrect,because we know that perinatal
changes, complications, impacteveryone the gestational
caregiver, the non-gestationalcaregiver, whether a family,
(14:32):
whether a child came in througha family, by all the different
ways that it came, it's going tohave a change.
And to ignore that or tominimize it or to say that, you
know, like it's not as bad,which is also minimizing, right,
it's just ignorant, it is.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's a microaggression.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
That's what it is yeah, and how hurtful.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Right, right.
And my mind just went to thebiological mother's own
treatment after no longer caringfor the baby.
Right Like infant was adoptedout, if that same and we're in
different parts of the country,so.
But if my nurse experience wasanything similar to what she may
(15:24):
have experienced after, well,like, well, at least you can
sleep through the night becauseyou don't have any.
How terrible and how.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
how that could have flitted through someone's brain
and thought like, oh, that'sokay to say out loud so I think
that's where it comes right,like, how do we help our clients
to organize this so that wedon't minimize it or think like
there was no harm there, when,in reality is, there is no focus
(15:55):
?
As you, as an individual, Ireally love the image that you
share in regards to the candy,because I was like, oh my god,
that's exactly what happens whenwe are caretakers.
It has never been about us, isit?
Um?
And that is the way.
That's the way I've beenoppressed.
(16:17):
A system that is oppressive, um,holy cow.
There's like so manyconnections happening right now.
I'm only just saying, you know,um, because I was like burn the
system, um, but tell us besides, for all of us who are, who are
listening, or for all of anyonewho is listening, please get
the book.
It's really an important book.
(16:37):
But how can, as a therapist,they show up and start
recognizing those biases thatthey have?
We all have biases.
Don't think if you're aminority, if you're female
instead of male, or identifiedas, or if you are a therapist,
like, we all have biases.
Let's normalize that.
But what is it that they needto know?
(17:00):
Attending to the clientele thatthey are serving?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that, and thank you for
saying we all have biases,because this is the air that we
breathe, the water that we swimin, like none of us are immune
from it, and to think that weare is dangerous.
I'm going to kind of lean intoan aspect of infant mental
(17:27):
health that I love, which isreflective practice, an aspect
of infant mental health that Ilove which is reflective
practice, and so the field ofinfant mental health has
embedded within it the practiceof reflective supervision and
reflective consultation.
We know that reflection canhappen individually and it can
happen in the context of ourcollaborator, and I find that
(17:48):
that's something that that ismissing from the other fields.
Like when do we have a space tosit and think about?
What is it like for me to sitwith this individual?
What is it like for me to sitwith this family?
What am I thinking?
What's coming up for me?
If I start to feel upset, if I,if I all of a sudden, like my
(18:12):
body, shakes, what was thatabout?
And having some intentionaltime to actually reflect on that
and and to think about when wecome up with the hypotheses and,
you know, reminding ourselvesthat everything that we come up
with is a hypothesis.
We don't know until, untilwe're in collaboration with a
person.
So when we come up with ahypothesis, thinking about where
(18:34):
is this coming from, what lifeexperience, what training
experience is guiding thisthought and how do I know that
that's accurate, and how am Ipartnering with the client to
say this is what I'm noticing,but I'm wondering how it is for
(18:57):
you.
Oh yeah, the field and this is abit controversial among some
groups, but the field of infantmental health and the field of
early childhood has a lot maybeall of mental health has a lot
(19:18):
of ableism embedded into it.
The way we think aboutdevelopment you know the
existence of a diagnosing systemis ableist, by, you know, by
being ableist.
But when we look at development, how are we partnering with the
families to really understandwhat does this mean to you?
(19:42):
Because developmental skills,right.
We can argue like oh okay, youknow they have been validated,
but what does that mean?
What does that mean in thecontext of communities that have
been historically marginalized,right?
Isn't it actually like what wethink it means?
You know, when we think aboutthe rites of passage in
(20:06):
different communities forchildren you know some
communities in the US we focus alot on zero to three.
You know there's a bit of amovement to focus on zero to
five, but in some of our Latinocommunities we focus on zero to
seven, sometimes zero to ten.
So what?
The independence that we expectin some of the dominant systems
(20:32):
is going to look very differentacross communities and across
cultures.
Across communities and acrosscultures.
And if the lens that people arecoming with is, you know, sort
of this lens that we have beentaught in school, you know, I
think about, I read so much inmy book, in the books in my MSW
program and outside of it, abouthow Latino communities are
(20:54):
enmeshed and the word by itself,like, seems so, like almost
derogatory, like well what's theproblem with being connected
like that is actually abeautiful thing, right, but if
we're, if we're coming with thatlens and we're thinking about
enmeshment as like something bad, and then we're seeing a child
that whose parent is not, youknow, letting them explore in
(21:17):
the way that we think theyshould be letting them explore,
then now we have this narrativeabout the family that is based
on us and is not necessarilybased on how the family is
functioning and what makes sensein their ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Which just seems so funny when we, especially in
play therapy and in working withchildren, behaviors are
communication, right.
So why can't we stay curious of, like, how is this serving them
and how is this done by purpose, right?
(21:57):
Like you, you know we havederogatory.
I feel like the derogatoryterms of you know, like the
helicopter parent, and very muchwhen you brought up the term
enmeshment, like I went rightback to grad school of like that
is a no-no and like I even havea case that came to mind and
that that was like the, theproblem that they were coming in
with and now living in SouthernNew Mexico and embedded into a
(22:22):
culture that very much likeenmeshment is not a bad thing.
We don't even use that termwhen we look at it here, but my
very Anglo counterparts in NewEngland, where I went to grad
school, would still very muchhold that lens right.
And when you think about, wasthere a birthing trauma?
(22:45):
Is that why mom and dad are somaybe, quote unquote
over-attentive orover-responsive?
Are they dealing with their owngenerational trauma now that
they are?
Parents are showing up for thefirst time for them, and I love
that, because I do think thatfirst lens can be very
(23:06):
judgmental and harsh to you know, when we talk about the medical
model, it is very judgmental.
You know these developmentalmilestones.
They're based on Anglomiddle-class families.
That is not, that is not themajority anymore, that's not the
, especially in the mentalhealth field.
Those aren't the kids we'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Like it doesn't benefit anybody, right Even
Anglo families.
It still causes harm.
Which is like what?
What baffles us sometimes we'relike harm, which is like what
baffles us, sometimes we're likewhy are we still doing this if
it's oppressive to everyone?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
If it's oppressive to one, it shouldn't be considered
.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
That's right.
So I think this is what some ofthe discussions right, which is
how can we create awareness notonly that we all have biases,
but that we tend to takesomething that we learn in
academia and tend to projectonto others.
This is what it should be like,from attachment through
enrichment.
So for me it has always beenlike how is that a problem?
(24:10):
And why is it a problem?
Because it should be the focuson the eye For you, it's on the
eye For these families, not.
So what is the projection?
Can we just stay here for afamilies?
Not.
So.
What is the projection?
Can we just stay here for alittle bit?
What is the expectation of thisfamily?
Because this is working forthem?
Um, so, even when I go totrainings now I'm very personal
reading like who's the trainer,what's their background, and
(24:33):
even when they say it's anattachment, they say tell me
more, because attachment doesn'tmean anything to me.
So it's, can you be informed ofwhat you're consuming?
Because in that consumptioncomes the biases and the
projections that you will taketo heart and then take that into
your clients.
(24:54):
Versus being curious about yourclients, right, your clients
versus being curious about yourclients, right.
And what are the adaptationsthat we have to make with what
we know and what makes sense forthe client that you're serving?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
and there's a difference there, yeah, yeah,
and how hard it is to to embarkin this anti-racist and
anti-oppressive journey because,as providers all of us I really
strongly believe this that wecome into this field with the
best of intentions, with a heartto serve.
Nobody gets into this wildheart-centered work to do harm,
(25:33):
right?
Um?
And yet the way that we'retrained brings a context.
The systems that we're embeddedin bring another context.
You know, I think of diagnosingas a necessary evil because
(25:54):
even though, like, yes, I wish I, you know it didn't exist,
right, but let me okay, I'llfinish this thought so I wish it
didn't exist, because I wishthat families, young children,
adults, individuals, everybodywere able to access the services
(26:14):
that they need without thislabel.
And I also want to say that,even though I called it this
label, and I also want to saythat, even though I called it a
necessary evil, I also want torecognize that for many of us
it's like the light and like, oh, like, this makes sense, this
thing that everybody has judgedme for makes sense and I'm going
to own it.
I often say that I navigate theworld with PTSD, right, and that
(26:36):
is a big part of my identity.
So I just language is trickyand I'm trying to.
I'm trying to hold myselfaccountable when my language
goes somewhere that I don't wantit to.
But yeah, so we have school, wehave the system that we're
embedded into, we have familiesand bills and the cost of living
(27:00):
.
Right where you remember whenbefore before, you were in the
field where you were watchinglike movies or tv and you saw
like the therapist in the moviethat was, it had one client and
then like was like had like fivebooks open and they were like
writing notes on that client,they lied to us.
(27:21):
It's no time for that right andthis movement is calling us to
make time for it yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Um, I think part of the last month's conversation
between Maria and I has beenlike there's a new cohort that
is demanding, asking fordifferent, and the field is
having a hard time adjusting toit because they want to go to
all norms, what is familiar, soI don't have to experience the
(27:55):
anxiety of it.
Yet this new cohort is sayingno, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We cannot go there.
We know different.
Why do I have to do this?
I love this new cohort for that.
I mean, it gives me anxiety,but I love what they're asking
us to do because, for me, it'sforcing me to be accountable not
(28:19):
only for the words that I use,which it matters, with the
exception of fuck you.
That's just a release, um, butbut it's awareness of what I
consume, um, the awareness of um.
Who are the trainers that Ifollow?
Where is there accountabilityfor ableism, for culture?
(28:42):
I know ableism is withincultures, but cultures, when
they focus on ethnicity and race, for understanding difference,
and when I ask questions such aswhat adaptations are you making
, they know how to attend tothat versus this is what I
learned.
There's a rigidity and there'sno space to be curious in that I
(29:05):
keep saying the demographicsare changing globally, it's not
just in the United States.
I know in the United States wehave limitations because we
don't get informed outside theUS.
I'm calling it and that's okay.
It's heavy.
It's heavy to pay attentionoutside the US.
(29:26):
I think it's because I don'tknow about you, maylene, but
because I coexist in worlds.
I have this need to be informedbecause that's what clients are
bringing to me, depending ontheir country of origin.
So it requires that I'minformed in order to make sense.
But in the US we havelimitations because we're afraid
(29:49):
, because we're comfortable,because we have these old ideas
of comfort.
And this new generation issaying we're being informed.
It's a good thing, because theytend to go to social media and
that's not accurate.
But there's a shift that ishappening and we are demanding
(30:13):
more.
Such as if you're working withthis population, can you attend
to the caretaker?
It doesn't matter if it'sbiological or not.
Such as if you're working withthis population, can you attend
to the caretaker?
It doesn't matter if it'sbiological or not, can you
attend?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Because it emotionally impacts us.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, and it's the trickle-down effect, right?
If we're not looking at thewhole system, then we're missing
long-term change and health.
Right?
If we're only focused on theinfant and we're leaving the
(30:47):
parents to manage themselves?
In a time where the world isupside down, right?
Day and night are confused,they can't probably even tell
you.
I mean, there were days whereI'm like how long has it been
since I've eaten, showered orgone to the bathroom?
I have no idea.
I have no idea, right, but wehold this belief.
Like you're an adult, you mustbe able to take care of yourself
(31:07):
.
I'm just going to be focused onthis baby.
We're missing the system ofcare and so the possibility for
long impacting health andwellness is being missed.
Right, it's no different thanwhen we, you know, lift the
bandage and we're like oh well,I'm just gonna put another
(31:28):
bandaid on it, versus like, oh,I got to take the time to like
clean this so that it healswhole and isn't at risk later on
as soon as I take my eyes offof it.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And then, how do we include the father if it's in
the picture?
Because historically, you know,we tend to focus on usually was
the mother who used to take thechild for visits, either to
therapy or medical, and we didnot include it to.
How's he doing?
How's he involved?
(32:02):
How his identity change, is heaware of the changes?
How is he taking care of?
How he's responding andco-regulating with mama like
it's?
All these things thatunfortunately tell me, if it's
true, because I have a bias hereand I'm owning it In the play
therapy field we're trained toonly work with the child and not
(32:23):
attend the system, and we tendto dismiss the parental in this
case the father quite often.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, we're not given a lot of skills in many
different trainings to actuallyengage the family unit, and I
think that when we're looking ata child, we absolutely need to
think about who are the adultsand the other folks that are
(32:54):
involved in their lives folksthat are involved in their lives
and this is also hard becauseit comes back to, you know, what
we're taught in many of ourprograms because, as you have
both said, most of thehistorical research has been
focused on the experience of themother and the experience of a
(33:17):
very specific group, right, thatdoesn't, that doesn't include
everyone, right?
And so in that we've lost, orerased rather, the stories of
trans parents, we've erased thestories of LGBTQ families, we've
(33:38):
erased the stories ofgrandparents who are raising
their grandchildren, we'veerased the story of the eldest
child who might be a co-parentto that main parent, and all
those pieces are important.
(34:02):
I am a fan of including andthinking with the client about
who is important in your lifeand who needs to be here yeah
even if we're just naming it,even if we're not ready to
invite that person, becausesometimes it could be beneficial
to invite the non-gestationalcaregiver or to invite, you know
(34:24):
, an extended family member, andsometimes it might not, because
we know all the reasons why.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
But the invitation right is can you be curious?
Because you're absolutely right.
I grew up with my grandma beingmy mom and I remember coming to
the US as a teenager and Iwould say, like my mom's, like
your mom was like well, that'smy grandma, um, so, like, how
did you differentiate?
Well, that's mama munda, thisis mama socorro.
And I was like, what do youmean?
So there was that confusion oflike we're gonna dismiss when
(34:57):
you're talking about yourgrandma.
Even today, I was doing aconsultation and they were
telling me, no, she was raisedby grandparents.
I was like great, those areparents.
She's like my biological momwas not attending, and so on and
so forth.
I was like, no, no, no.
So you're focusing on theattachment, because now you are
projecting this expectation froman attachment lens, but that's
(35:19):
not serving this client.
So let's reframe it.
So again, we have, because thesystems that we participate in
by getting our degree there's noin or out about it Academia has
a hard time catching up.
Let's make that explicit.
And it's based on what we'rereading.
It may be like.
So let's think back to yourbook.
(35:41):
How can we read this book andbe curious about things that we
have not considered, especiallywhen you have these different
share experiences and lifeexperiences that you get to name
for a lot of therapists whodon't have that lens, have a
bias, and now they get to readand be curious and consider when
(36:04):
they're working with thesefamilies.
You know, if you want to hireme to promote your book I can
but I might.
I am terrible with marketing.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I call what I do heart centered marketing, which
it's just like buildingrelationships and like
collaborating together.
Because, yeah, the other stuffjust I don't know.
I don't know if it's my ownstuff or it just doesn't feel
right.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
There's some work to be done there.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And we will do it for you.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
The work is never ending.
Oh my God, there's so much.
I feel like you need to comeback because there was just not
enough time for everything thatyou're sharing.
So, first of all, like thankyou for taking the space and
coming in and inviting us to bereflective of our practice, to
be curious and to consider otherpossibilities when we're
(37:04):
working not only with the child,but with the system.
We need to include the systemand then, too, the beautiful way
that you're doing it, which iseven like with the book that you
have right.
What is it that we need to knowwhen we're early, when we're
working with early relationalhealth?
I love that.
I even, like highlighted earlyrelational help.
(37:26):
Please come back and continuetalking to us, because we cannot
continue Like we need remindersof this work that we're doing.
It's so easy.
Even when you were talking abouthow they lied to us in regards
to the therapy, I was like, ohmy God, it's true, but we need
(37:47):
reminders of hey, can you slowdown, can, can, can you just be
aware, not only when you are infront of that person, and God
knows that we have all this todo, which is the treatment plan,
the case note.
How are you going to translateand link to a model, or what is
it that you need to link forinsurance and Medicaid purposes?
But can you just be presentwith the client and can you be
(38:11):
curious, with the client infront of you, versus everything
that you're trying to manage inorder for you to make a living?
I love that you linked thatpart, which is we also have to
make a living Right.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
It's a shift right of centering reflection as the
most important thing that we dowhen, when working with folks.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I'm always happy to talk anti-oppression and
perinatal and babies, so I'mglad to be here.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
This was fun it is fun, maria, anything that you
want to share before we say bye?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
oh my gosh um, I'll try to keep it short.
No, I think that this is really, it's really important work and
I haven't seen the connectionsas you've seen them and put them
together.
It's our book is in my cart,it's on my to read list now
Because I think it is so, soimportant to read lists now,
(39:16):
because I think it is so, soimportant.
You know, I've had theprivilege of growing up overseas
and traveling around a lot andbeing transplanted, and so I was
raised on culture appreciation,and not like appreciation like
I take it for myself, but likeappreciating the differences in
culture, like that was veryingrained to me.
Growing up and finding thatdissonance when being forced
(39:38):
into systems that don't sharethose values, and finding others
like yourself who have found away to make it work and to be
able to hold both to be true atthe same time, is just so
helpful and inspiring and ithelps us continue to go, because
it can get really hard to workin systems that want to put us
(39:58):
back in those boxes yeahbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
We need each other.
Yes, we need each other, so I'mgonna I'm gonna do it here,
just because I don't have shame.
Please come back and talk to us, and if you say yes, it's going
to be recorded, so everyoneknows that you're coming back.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I would be happy to come back, thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
No pressure.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Just put you on the spot, but no pressure, just put
it on pressure.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Please take care of you as always, Thank you.
Thank you, listeners.
In the podcast we will includeall her information from the
website, then the name of thebook.
Please go get it and then, whenyou see her in person because
you're taking a training, makesure that she signs your book,
because it's pretty cool to signthe book.
Less on that Until next time.
(40:47):
Listeners, please take care.
Until then,
welcome listeners back for another episode of a
hero's welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, maria laquerdiego, and I am here with my
lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's me.
I was gonna say it's my link,but no, it's me, liliana baylor,
and we are here with a specialguest, dr mylene velasquez.
For all of you, um, who arethere listening, um, first of
all, I I'm going to say she'samazing.
But, mylene, besides being adoctor, what else do you want
everyone else who's listening tous to know about you?
How do you want to introduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Sure, I am an immigrant Latina living in the
US.
I navigated most of my life ina brown body, so I say I'm a
brown clinician and I navigatethe world with vitiligo.
It's an autoimmune conditionwhere your immune system attacks
the cells that produce melanin.
(00:53):
For me, it developed when I was16 with two tiny little spots
under my eye, and when I wasaround 28 years old it just
moved exponentially quickly.
And so I share that becauseit's an important part of my
identity and how I navigate theworld.
In my work, I live at theintersection of perinatal infant
(01:15):
play therapy and anti-racistand anti-oppressive practices.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Thanks Huge.
So that's how I met May maylene.
We're both migrants, um, we haddiscussions in regards to what
is it like to live in the us,and either acculturating or
assimilating, and I think oneday we'll bring you back so that
we can have this beautifuldiscussion, um, especially in a
society that struggles with that, especially when you're serving
(01:42):
this population as well.
But for today, do you want toshare with our audience what is
it that we're going to bediscussing?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I can share.
I'm excited we're going to betalking about a book that I just
published this July and it'scalled what Therapists Need to
Know About Perinatal and EarlyRelational Health and it's an
anti-oppressive guide to workingwith perinatal folks, that's,
(02:11):
pregnancy and postpartum folks,their babies and their young
children.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Thank you.
It still feels pretty surreal.
It still feels like I'm talkingabout someone else, Like I'm
like yeah, yeah, I'm totallythis lady who published the book
.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm totally this lady who got a doctorate degree and
I published a book.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Little girl from Venezuela.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's right baby, Venezuela, that's right baby.
So I'm curious how did you pickthis as your?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
specialty and your interest.
How did that happen?
Oh yeah, that's such a goodquestion because it's kind of my
journey into the field.
When I graduated with mybachelor's degree, I started
working at a community mentalhealth organization, and this is
2006.
And I was doing psychosocialassessments.
(03:11):
And then, because I spokeSpanish, and now this is in
Miami where there's a lot ofSpanish-speaking folks, but even
so, you see sort of thediscrepancies among who are the
providers that have access tothings and you know who are the
bilingual community, that theproviders that have access to
things and you know who are thebilingual community that don't
always have access to things.
So because I was one of theonly Spanish speaking providers,
(03:32):
I was asked to run a group andthis was an outpatient substance
use disorder group, and so Iwas like sure, what do I do?
And so that kind of started myjourney.
The next year I enrolled in amaster's program and I got an
MSW and I was thinking that Iwas going to focus on working
(03:55):
with folks with substance usedisorder and also with folks
that had experiencedinterpartner violence, folks
that had experiencedinter-partner violence.
What ended up happening is thatI started a residential job and
, seeing the lack of supportthat was provided for people,
(04:15):
how folks were coming into thisresidential program.
There wasn't a lot of holdingor I wasn't sure what we were
actually doing.
And then folks went out intothe community and then came
right back in and so I startedto think about how can I work
(04:35):
with folks maybe a littleyounger earlier on and I got a
job doing therapeutic homevisits and so I was going to the
(05:09):
homes was to do that kind ofwork.
I remember asking my supervisorfor some tools and activities
that I can do with the familiesand my supervisor said you can
create your own.
And so I'm sure this is notwhat my supervisor meant at the
time.
But I was like I don't knowwhat I'm doing.
My supervisor doesn't know whatthey're doing.
(05:31):
Like, what do I do?
So I went online and it waslike play therapy training, and
so I was very lucky to havegrown up as a clinician in Miami
around a time that there weretons, tons of free, grant funded
, accessible training for us.
So I took my introductions playtherapy.
(05:53):
And so I took an intro to playtherapy and I was like, oh yeah,
this is my jam, I love it.
And I got connected with a 72hourhour play therapy training
course that included supervision.
So you were recorded, yoursupervisors were there and it
was no cost to me, which waslike that is unheard of.
(06:15):
Had that not been the case, Iwouldn't be here, like y'all
would be here, I wouldn't behere.
From there, I started working ata shelter for women and
children and I started to seethat a lot of folks had babies
and were pregnant and I was like, what do I do?
(06:35):
So I went online and I'm likebaby training and I found a
training that's called FuzzyBaby, and that training actually
shifted the whole trajectory ofmy career and I fell in love
with the field of infant mentalhealth, which is also called
early relational health.
And then, from there, I startedto notice like, okay, there's a
(06:58):
lot of focus on the babies,which is needed right, because
we need caregivers to beprotective and secure and
reliable caregivers to to theirchildren.
Um, and there wasn't this pieceof like the caregiver as an
individual with a separateidentity from being this child's
(07:21):
parent, like I felt like thatwas sort of missing.
So again I went online and I'mlike, and I found a training by
Perinatal Support WashingtonPerinatal Support Washington no.
Postpartum SupportInternational.
Perinatal Support Washington iswhere I am now.
That's the organization, that'sthe branch of Postpartum
(07:43):
Support International that is inWashington state.
But I found a training by PSIand I was like, oh, I love this.
So most of my work is aroundsupporting pregnant and
postpartum folks and theirlittle ones.
How the anti-racist andanti-oppressive lens came in One
(08:05):
.
It's like my lived experience.
But when I started doingleadership work, I was also.
I also had like anotherexperience of being whiplash and
sort of coming to like a reallystrong break of wow.
Like the things that folks say,like when I'm in the room and
(08:31):
like they're talking about meand my community and they're
talking about other communitiesthat I'm not a member of, but
how do I navigate this?
And so that that led me intoanother journey.
So that's, that's my.
You know how we say like tomake a long story short.
So, this is like to make a longstory.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
long, that was that was sad, but I think that is the
call right Before we jump in.
I think that is a call and Ithink that's why I love
connecting with you, because Ithink for both of us was going
to trainings or reading booksand realizing that there's a lot
of stereotypes about us.
Realizing that there's a lot ofstereotypes about us, not just
(09:14):
females the three of us, gender,gender inequality but also as
latinas.
And then if you add the migrantlabel, then we don't like how
we've been portrayed, not inacademia, not in mental health
trainings.
And then you and I both of ushave discussed like fuck no, and
let me go do this instead.
(09:35):
So we're challenging when itcomes to, you know, being
anti-oppressive.
It's not the idea that I rejectyou or I, but it's like I
disagree with you.
And are you open for anotherperspective that I can offer?
And if we're individuals and wewant to attend to the
(09:58):
individual, can you not put usinto boxes?
Because there's no such thing,and I think that's part of our
work, right?
But coming back to I even lovewhat you're discussing, which is
that's true we tend to payattention to when we're talking
about working with earlyrelationship help.
(10:20):
We tend to and I have.
This has been my pitch in angersince I was pregnant.
I'm going to put it out therejust for all of you to know,
because I'm still resentful,even though my kid is 26 now and
youngest is 21, which is when Iwas pregnant.
Everyone wanted to touch mystomach and everyone was talking
, which is when I say no andpeople are like, oh, but why?
I was like because this is mybody, can you ask for consent?
(10:43):
And if I said no, don't touchmy stomach, like, don't touch it
, but then too, the attentionwas on the child, not on me.
And then giving birth, then theattention goes to the child and
as the mother left behind.
So then society says do youhave an identity?
But I don't, because it goesfrom significant other.
(11:05):
If you are in a relationship tomother of, no one pays
attention to you, right?
And then society says you haveto be all these things and do
all these things.
And then we're not payingattention to the mental health
of the mother and I love how youput it.
I even like highlighted whichis the early relationship help,
(11:28):
which is how are you doing withall these adjustments around you
?
Are you taking care of yourbody as it's been going through
so many transitions.
And I see you.
And how can I support you?
I see that both of you are notand I was like great, I'm
(11:50):
preaching to the choir.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So I mean, honestly, what's coming up for me and this
just unlocked a memory that Iclearly have pushed aside so
both of my children are adopted.
And what just came up for mewhen you said that Liliana was
one of their first checkups withmy son, who's my oldest?
(12:13):
The practitioner's assistant itwasn't the doctor at the time,
but the practitioner's assistant.
Right, they come in, they weighthe baby, they're doing their
thing, and I got a, you know, aquick like a how are you holding
up up?
And then she's like flippingthrough the chart right and she
goes oh, that's right, that'sright, this, this one's adopted.
(12:37):
How lucky for you that you mustnot be so exhausted oh, that's a
microaggression in so intensitylevels yeah, but for me that's
what came up and I was like andI mean, clearly he's nine now as
we're recording, like that hasbeen like pushed aside.
(12:59):
But I, for me, it was like, oh,I didn't, like I didn't
experience that and I think inback of my mind that was it was
because it was an adoptionsituation.
Now, knowing that that's kindof their baseline anyway, right,
like no one's asking about howthe parents are holding up,
(13:22):
right, we all make jokes aboutlike oh, once the baby sleeps
through the night, or sleep whenthe baby sleeps, and like all
of these little things, but noneof it is actually rooted in.
Are you okay?
Are you taking care of you sothat you can take care of baby?
The expectation and even thejokes like double down on you,
(13:44):
sacrifice everything for thebaby, you no longer matter, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, I can say that for the folks in the back.
There's this idea that we oftentalk about in the perinatal
world, about how the you know,when the person is pregnant,
right, it's like a piece ofcandy, and so when the child is
born, right, and when the childjoins the family, we take the
(14:10):
candy and we throw away thewrapper, right.
And I'm hearing your experienceand I'm like it is not only
harmful but also incorrect,because we know that perinatal
changes, complications, impacteveryone the gestational
caregiver, the non-gestationalcaregiver, whether a family,
(14:32):
whether a child came in througha family, by all the different
ways that it came, it's going tohave a change.
And to ignore that or tominimize it or to say that, you
know, like it's not as bad,which is also minimizing, right,
it's just ignorant, it is.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's a microaggression.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
That's what it is yeah, and how hurtful.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Right, right.
And my mind just went to thebiological mother's own
treatment after no longer caringfor the baby.
Right Like infant was adoptedout, if that same and we're in
different parts of the country,so.
But if my nurse experience wasanything similar to what she may
(15:24):
have experienced after, well,like, well, at least you can
sleep through the night becauseyou don't have any.
How terrible and how.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
how that could have flitted through someone's brain
and thought like, oh, that'sokay to say out loud so I think
that's where it comes right,like, how do we help our clients
to organize this so that wedon't minimize it or think like
there was no harm there, when,in reality is, there is no focus
(15:55):
?
As you, as an individual, Ireally love the image that you
share in regards to the candy,because I was like, oh my god,
that's exactly what happens whenwe are caretakers.
It has never been about us, isit?
Um?
And that is the way.
That's the way I've beenoppressed.
(16:17):
A system that is oppressive, um,holy cow.
There's like so manyconnections happening right now.
I'm only just saying, you know,um, because I was like burn the
system, um, but tell us besides, for all of us who are, who are
listening, or for all of anyonewho is listening, please get
the book.
It's really an important book.
(16:37):
But how can, as a therapist,they show up and start
recognizing those biases thatthey have?
We all have biases.
Don't think if you're aminority, if you're female
instead of male, or identifiedas, or if you are a therapist,
like, we all have biases.
Let's normalize that.
But what is it that they needto know?
(17:00):
Attending to the clientele thatthey are serving?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that, and thank you for
saying we all have biases,because this is the air that we
breathe, the water that we swimin, like none of us are immune
from it, and to think that weare is dangerous.
I'm going to kind of lean intoan aspect of infant mental
(17:27):
health that I love, which isreflective practice, an aspect
of infant mental health that Ilove which is reflective
practice, and so the field ofinfant mental health has
embedded within it the practiceof reflective supervision and
reflective consultation.
We know that reflection canhappen individually and it can
happen in the context of ourcollaborator, and I find that
(17:48):
that's something that that ismissing from the other fields.
Like when do we have a space tosit and think about?
What is it like for me to sitwith this individual?
What is it like for me to sitwith this family?
What am I thinking?
What's coming up for me?
If I start to feel upset, if I,if I all of a sudden, like my
(18:12):
body, shakes, what was thatabout?
And having some intentionaltime to actually reflect on that
and and to think about when wecome up with the hypotheses and,
you know, reminding ourselvesthat everything that we come up
with is a hypothesis.
We don't know until, untilwe're in collaboration with a
person.
So when we come up with ahypothesis, thinking about where
(18:34):
is this coming from, what lifeexperience, what training
experience is guiding thisthought and how do I know that
that's accurate, and how am Ipartnering with the client to
say this is what I'm noticing,but I'm wondering how it is for
(18:57):
you.
Oh yeah, the field and this is abit controversial among some
groups, but the field of infantmental health and the field of
early childhood has a lot maybeall of mental health has a lot
(19:18):
of ableism embedded into it.
The way we think aboutdevelopment you know the
existence of a diagnosing systemis ableist, by, you know, by
being ableist.
But when we look at development, how are we partnering with the
families to really understandwhat does this mean to you?
(19:42):
Because developmental skills,right.
We can argue like oh okay, youknow they have been validated,
but what does that mean?
What does that mean in thecontext of communities that have
been historically marginalized,right?
Isn't it actually like what wethink it means?
You know, when we think aboutthe rites of passage in
(20:06):
different communities forchildren you know some
communities in the US we focus alot on zero to three.
You know there's a bit of amovement to focus on zero to
five, but in some of our Latinocommunities we focus on zero to
seven, sometimes zero to ten.
So what?
The independence that we expectin some of the dominant systems
(20:32):
is going to look very differentacross communities and across
cultures.
Across communities and acrosscultures.
And if the lens that people arecoming with is, you know, sort
of this lens that we have beentaught in school, you know, I
think about, I read so much inmy book, in the books in my MSW
program and outside of it, abouthow Latino communities are
(20:54):
enmeshed and the word by itself,like, seems so, like almost
derogatory, like well what's theproblem with being connected
like that is actually abeautiful thing, right, but if
we're, if we're coming with thatlens and we're thinking about
enmeshment as like something bad, and then we're seeing a child
that whose parent is not, youknow, letting them explore in
(21:17):
the way that we think theyshould be letting them explore,
then now we have this narrativeabout the family that is based
on us and is not necessarilybased on how the family is
functioning and what makes sensein their ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Which just seems so funny when we, especially in
play therapy and in working withchildren, behaviors are
communication, right.
So why can't we stay curious of, like, how is this serving them
and how is this done by purpose, right?
(21:57):
Like you, you know we havederogatory.
I feel like the derogatoryterms of you know, like the
helicopter parent, and very muchwhen you brought up the term
enmeshment, like I went rightback to grad school of like that
is a no-no and like I even havea case that came to mind and
that that was like the, theproblem that they were coming in
with and now living in SouthernNew Mexico and embedded into a
(22:22):
culture that very much likeenmeshment is not a bad thing.
We don't even use that termwhen we look at it here, but my
very Anglo counterparts in NewEngland, where I went to grad
school, would still very muchhold that lens right.
And when you think about, wasthere a birthing trauma?
(22:45):
Is that why mom and dad are somaybe, quote unquote
over-attentive orover-responsive?
Are they dealing with their owngenerational trauma now that
they are?
Parents are showing up for thefirst time for them, and I love
that, because I do think thatfirst lens can be very
(23:06):
judgmental and harsh to you know, when we talk about the medical
model, it is very judgmental.
You know these developmentalmilestones.
They're based on Anglomiddle-class families.
That is not, that is not themajority anymore, that's not the
, especially in the mentalhealth field.
Those aren't the kids we'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Like it doesn't benefit anybody, right Even
Anglo families.
It still causes harm.
Which is like what?
What baffles us sometimes we'relike harm, which is like what
baffles us, sometimes we're likewhy are we still doing this if
it's oppressive to everyone?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
If it's oppressive to one, it shouldn't be considered
.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
That's right.
So I think this is what some ofthe discussions right, which is
how can we create awareness notonly that we all have biases,
but that we tend to takesomething that we learn in
academia and tend to projectonto others.
This is what it should be like,from attachment through
enrichment.
So for me it has always beenlike how is that a problem?
(24:10):
And why is it a problem?
Because it should be the focuson the eye For you, it's on the
eye For these families, not.
So what is the projection?
Can we just stay here for afamilies?
Not.
So.
What is the projection?
Can we just stay here for alittle bit?
What is the expectation of thisfamily?
Because this is working forthem?
Um, so, even when I go totrainings now I'm very personal
reading like who's the trainer,what's their background, and
(24:33):
even when they say it's anattachment, they say tell me
more, because attachment doesn'tmean anything to me.
So it's, can you be informed ofwhat you're consuming?
Because in that consumptioncomes the biases and the
projections that you will taketo heart and then take that into
your clients.
(24:54):
Versus being curious about yourclients, right, your clients
versus being curious about yourclients, right.
And what are the adaptationsthat we have to make with what
we know and what makes sense forthe client that you're serving?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
and there's a difference there, yeah, yeah,
and how hard it is to to embarkin this anti-racist and
anti-oppressive journey because,as providers all of us I really
strongly believe this that wecome into this field with the
best of intentions, with a heartto serve.
Nobody gets into this wildheart-centered work to do harm,
(25:33):
right?
Um?
And yet the way that we'retrained brings a context.
The systems that we're embeddedin bring another context.
You know, I think of diagnosingas a necessary evil because
(25:54):
even though, like, yes, I wish I, you know it didn't exist,
right, but let me okay, I'llfinish this thought so I wish it
didn't exist, because I wishthat families, young children,
adults, individuals, everybodywere able to access the services
(26:14):
that they need without thislabel.
And I also want to say that,even though I called it this
label, and I also want to saythat, even though I called it a
necessary evil, I also want torecognize that for many of us
it's like the light and like, oh, like, this makes sense, this
thing that everybody has judgedme for makes sense and I'm going
to own it.
I often say that I navigate theworld with PTSD, right, and that
(26:36):
is a big part of my identity.
So I just language is trickyand I'm trying to.
I'm trying to hold myselfaccountable when my language
goes somewhere that I don't wantit to.
But yeah, so we have school, wehave the system that we're
embedded into, we have familiesand bills and the cost of living
(27:00):
.
Right where you remember whenbefore before, you were in the
field where you were watchinglike movies or tv and you saw
like the therapist in the moviethat was, it had one client and
then like was like had like fivebooks open and they were like
writing notes on that client,they lied to us.
(27:21):
It's no time for that right andthis movement is calling us to
make time for it yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Um, I think part of the last month's conversation
between Maria and I has beenlike there's a new cohort that
is demanding, asking fordifferent, and the field is
having a hard time adjusting toit because they want to go to
all norms, what is familiar, soI don't have to experience the
(27:55):
anxiety of it.
Yet this new cohort is sayingno, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We cannot go there.
We know different.
Why do I have to do this?
I love this new cohort for that.
I mean, it gives me anxiety,but I love what they're asking
us to do because, for me, it'sforcing me to be accountable not
(28:19):
only for the words that I use,which it matters, with the
exception of fuck you.
That's just a release, um, butbut it's awareness of what I
consume, um, the awareness of um.
Who are the trainers that Ifollow?
Where is there accountabilityfor ableism, for culture?
(28:42):
I know ableism is withincultures, but cultures, when
they focus on ethnicity and race, for understanding difference,
and when I ask questions such aswhat adaptations are you making
, they know how to attend tothat versus this is what I
learned.
There's a rigidity and there'sno space to be curious in that I
(29:05):
keep saying the demographicsare changing globally, it's not
just in the United States.
I know in the United States wehave limitations because we
don't get informed outside theUS.
I'm calling it and that's okay.
It's heavy.
It's heavy to pay attentionoutside the US.
(29:26):
I think it's because I don'tknow about you, maylene, but
because I coexist in worlds.
I have this need to be informedbecause that's what clients are
bringing to me, depending ontheir country of origin.
So it requires that I'minformed in order to make sense.
But in the US we havelimitations because we're afraid
(29:49):
, because we're comfortable,because we have these old ideas
of comfort.
And this new generation issaying we're being informed.
It's a good thing, because theytend to go to social media and
that's not accurate.
But there's a shift that ishappening and we are demanding
(30:13):
more.
Such as if you're working withthis population, can you attend
to the caretaker?
It doesn't matter if it'sbiological or not.
Such as if you're working withthis population, can you attend
to the caretaker?
It doesn't matter if it'sbiological or not, can you
attend?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Because it emotionally impacts us.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, and it's the trickle-down effect, right?
If we're not looking at thewhole system, then we're missing
long-term change and health.
Right?
If we're only focused on theinfant and we're leaving the
(30:47):
parents to manage themselves?
In a time where the world isupside down, right?
Day and night are confused,they can't probably even tell
you.
I mean, there were days whereI'm like how long has it been
since I've eaten, showered orgone to the bathroom?
I have no idea.
I have no idea, right, but wehold this belief.
Like you're an adult, you mustbe able to take care of yourself
(31:07):
.
I'm just going to be focused onthis baby.
We're missing the system ofcare and so the possibility for
long impacting health andwellness is being missed.
Right, it's no different thanwhen we, you know, lift the
bandage and we're like oh well,I'm just gonna put another
(31:28):
bandaid on it, versus like, oh,I got to take the time to like
clean this so that it healswhole and isn't at risk later on
as soon as I take my eyes offof it.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And then, how do we include the father if it's in
the picture?
Because historically, you know,we tend to focus on usually was
the mother who used to take thechild for visits, either to
therapy or medical, and we didnot include it to.
How's he doing?
How's he involved?
(32:02):
How his identity change, is heaware of the changes?
How is he taking care of?
How he's responding andco-regulating with mama like
it's?
All these things thatunfortunately tell me, if it's
true, because I have a bias hereand I'm owning it In the play
therapy field we're trained toonly work with the child and not
(32:23):
attend the system, and we tendto dismiss the parental in this
case the father quite often.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, we're not given a lot of skills in many
different trainings to actuallyengage the family unit, and I
think that when we're looking ata child, we absolutely need to
think about who are the adultsand the other folks that are
(32:54):
involved in their lives folksthat are involved in their lives
and this is also hard becauseit comes back to, you know, what
we're taught in many of ourprograms because, as you have
both said, most of thehistorical research has been
focused on the experience of themother and the experience of a
(33:17):
very specific group, right, thatdoesn't, that doesn't include
everyone, right?
And so in that we've lost, orerased rather, the stories of
trans parents, we've erased thestories of LGBTQ families, we've
(33:38):
erased the stories ofgrandparents who are raising
their grandchildren, we'veerased the story of the eldest
child who might be a co-parentto that main parent, and all
those pieces are important.
(34:02):
I am a fan of including andthinking with the client about
who is important in your lifeand who needs to be here yeah
even if we're just naming it,even if we're not ready to
invite that person, becausesometimes it could be beneficial
to invite the non-gestationalcaregiver or to invite, you know
(34:24):
, an extended family member, andsometimes it might not, because
we know all the reasons why.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
But the invitation right is can you be curious?
Because you're absolutely right.
I grew up with my grandma beingmy mom and I remember coming to
the US as a teenager and Iwould say, like my mom's, like
your mom was like well, that'smy grandma, um, so, like, how
did you differentiate?
Well, that's mama munda, thisis mama socorro.
And I was like, what do youmean?
So there was that confusion oflike we're gonna dismiss when
(34:57):
you're talking about yourgrandma.
Even today, I was doing aconsultation and they were
telling me, no, she was raisedby grandparents.
I was like great, those areparents.
She's like my biological momwas not attending, and so on and
so forth.
I was like, no, no, no.
So you're focusing on theattachment, because now you are
projecting this expectation froman attachment lens, but that's
(35:19):
not serving this client.
So let's reframe it.
So again, we have, because thesystems that we participate in
by getting our degree there's noin or out about it Academia has
a hard time catching up.
Let's make that explicit.
And it's based on what we'rereading.
It may be like.
So let's think back to yourbook.
(35:41):
How can we read this book andbe curious about things that we
have not considered, especiallywhen you have these different
share experiences and lifeexperiences that you get to name
for a lot of therapists whodon't have that lens, have a
bias, and now they get to readand be curious and consider when
(36:04):
they're working with thesefamilies.
You know, if you want to hireme to promote your book I can
but I might.
I am terrible with marketing.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I call what I do heart centered marketing, which
it's just like buildingrelationships and like
collaborating together.
Because, yeah, the other stuffjust I don't know.
I don't know if it's my ownstuff or it just doesn't feel
right.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
There's some work to be done there.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And we will do it for you.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
The work is never ending.
Oh my God, there's so much.
I feel like you need to comeback because there was just not
enough time for everything thatyou're sharing.
So, first of all, like thankyou for taking the space and
coming in and inviting us to bereflective of our practice, to
be curious and to consider otherpossibilities when we're
(37:04):
working not only with the child,but with the system.
We need to include the systemand then, too, the beautiful way
that you're doing it, which iseven like with the book that you
have right.
What is it that we need to knowwhen we're early, when we're
working with early relationalhealth?
I love that.
I even, like highlighted earlyrelational help.
(37:26):
Please come back and continuetalking to us, because we cannot
continue Like we need remindersof this work that we're doing.
It's so easy.
Even when you were talking abouthow they lied to us in regards
to the therapy, I was like, ohmy God, it's true, but we need
(37:47):
reminders of hey, can you slowdown, can, can, can you just be
aware, not only when you are infront of that person, and God
knows that we have all this todo, which is the treatment plan,
the case note.
How are you going to translateand link to a model, or what is
it that you need to link forinsurance and Medicaid purposes?
But can you just be presentwith the client and can you be
(38:11):
curious, with the client infront of you, versus everything
that you're trying to manage inorder for you to make a living?
I love that you linked thatpart, which is we also have to
make a living Right.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
It's a shift right of centering reflection as the
most important thing that we dowhen, when working with folks.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I'm always happy to talk anti-oppression and
perinatal and babies, so I'mglad to be here.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
This was fun it is fun, maria, anything that you
want to share before we say bye?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
oh my gosh um, I'll try to keep it short.
No, I think that this is really, it's really important work and
I haven't seen the connectionsas you've seen them and put them
together.
It's our book is in my cart,it's on my to read list now
Because I think it is so, soimportant to read lists now,
(39:16):
because I think it is so, soimportant.
You know, I've had theprivilege of growing up overseas
and traveling around a lot andbeing transplanted, and so I was
raised on culture appreciation,and not like appreciation like
I take it for myself, but likeappreciating the differences in
culture, like that was veryingrained to me.
Growing up and finding thatdissonance when being forced
(39:38):
into systems that don't sharethose values, and finding others
like yourself who have found away to make it work and to be
able to hold both to be true atthe same time, is just so
helpful and inspiring and ithelps us continue to go, because
it can get really hard to workin systems that want to put us
(39:58):
back in those boxes yeahbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
We need each other.
Yes, we need each other, so I'mgonna I'm gonna do it here,
just because I don't have shame.
Please come back and talk to us, and if you say yes, it's going
to be recorded, so everyoneknows that you're coming back.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I would be happy to come back, thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
No pressure.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Just put you on the spot, but no pressure, just put
it on pressure.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Please take care of you as always, Thank you.
Thank you, listeners.
In the podcast we will includeall her information from the
website, then the name of thebook.
Please go get it and then, whenyou see her in person because
you're taking a training, makesure that she signs your book,
because it's pretty cool to signthe book.
Less on that Until next time.
(40:47):
Listeners, please take care.
Until then,
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