November 13, 2025 • 32 mins
When words collapse under the weight of trauma, symbols step in with clarity and care. We sit down with Anna Gomez to explore how EMDR and sand tray therapy, used together, create a safer path into memory networks, one that honors culture, protects against flooding, and invites healing to unfold at the nervous system’s pace. From the first touch of sand to the choice of a miniature, the tray becomes a living map of autonomic states, attachment patterns, and dissociative parts, allowing clients to express what feels unsayable.
We dive into implicit reprocessing, the crucial phase in which a client can work through terror and shame without immediate ownership. Think “the llama is scared” before “I was scared.” That gentle distance isn’t avoidance; it’s precision. With a polyvagal lens, we track state shifts and titrate EMDR activation like microdosing, choosing backdoor entries to memory when the front door overwhelms. For migrants, bilingual clients, and anyone facing loyalty binds or language fragmentation, symbolic work respects the realities of identity and safety while building a bridge back to words.
Clinicians at every level will find both depth and practicality here. Anna shares how to blend EMDR protocols with relational attunement, moment-to-moment decisions, and culturally grounded meaning-making. We discuss composite case patterns that reveal disorganized attachment in the tray, show how ownership often arises organically over time, and underline why therapist regulation is the anchor for complex trauma. If you’ve ever wished EMDR felt less flooding or talk therapy less confining, this conversation offers a humane, research-aligned alternative that is as structured as it is spacious.
Ready to rethink how healing begins? Listen, share with a colleague, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review. Your support helps more therapists and clients find this work.
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Episode Transcript
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Maria Laquerre-Diego (00:36):
Welcome back, listeners, for another
episode of O Heroes Welcomepodcast.
I'm your co-host,Maria LaquerreDiego, and I'm
joined by my lovely co-host, theone and only crazy one, Liliana
Baylon.
Liliana Baylon (00:48):
And we are here with the special guest.
Um, I'm stretching my hands asif you can see me.
Um, why not?
Uh, we are here with Ana Gomez.
Hey, Ana, how are you doingtoday?
Ana Gomez (01:00):
I'm good.
Very excited to be together.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's it's an honor and aprivilege to be able to spend
time with you and your audience.
So thank you.
Liliana Baylon (01:13):
Welcome.
And we are here.
You have two books out there,but today we're gonna focus on
one, correctly?
So we were gonna be talkingabout the EMDR a and Sand-based
therapy book.
That's your baby.
Ana Gomez (01:25):
That is a baby.
Yes, it's a big baby, it's ababy that I have nurtured for
many, many years.
So I was trained in the EMDR,it's gonna be 26 years ago, and
shortly after I started to putthem together because I was
using just sand tray therapybefore I was trained in the
EMDR.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (01:45):
Okay.
Ana Gomez (01:46):
But because I was working with very complex
clinical presentations, I wastrying to figure out what would
be the best way to work,especially with children, and
then started to combine themboth.
Liliana Baylon (02:00):
Yes.
So um when you um share youryour book, your your baby, with
all of us um in the field, um, Imean, everything about the book
um was beautiful, but like formyself and and and we were gonna
take turns, but I wanted to saylike thank you because when
(02:21):
you're working with migrants andeither language is an issue,
issue, uh, family loyalty is anissue, um or uh you know, other
systemic issues come in the way,like this book, because we're
focusing on Santray, um, isgiving uh clinicians um uh a
(02:43):
gateway, a path where uh verbalstory uh maybe fractured, um a
way of how to do EMDR a umthrough uh externally, and then
you and you talk in the in thebook beautifully about it, but
um I thought for all of us,either if you're working with
migrants or if you're workingacross cultures and language,
(03:06):
it's an issue, it's a barrier.
What a beautiful way in thisbook to describe how to do the
work with.
Ana Gomez (03:14):
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
Because our native languagereally is symbols.
I mean, think about how wedream.
See, we we don't dream inwell-organized verbal
narratives, but instead uh ourdreams are full of stories,
(03:34):
metaphors, and symbols.
That is really our nativelanguage and is the language
that we use to communicate atsuch deep level with self.
So, yes, definitely, you know,a symbol can encompass a nervous
system pattern, for example,without having to verbalize it.
(03:55):
You may have an angry tigerfighting everyone.
See, that in itself is arepresentation and a
physicalization of a nervoussystem state.
Uh, a dissociative part mayshow up, may show up in in the
sand world.
Patterns of attachment andconnection, the relational
(04:17):
template of the the child, theadolescent, the adult may show
up as a figure that is distant.
The caregiven system shows upin the sand world in in the form
that is developmentallyappropriate, especially for
children, but also it provides apathway to the mind that feels
completely overwhelmed.
(04:39):
And the symbol provides a levelof distance that allows the
mind to express what otherwisewould be so overwhelming, but
also it it provides uh a mirrorto the mind, a way for the mind
to dialogue with itself throughsymbols.
Liliana Baylon (05:00):
Yeah.
So um, and again, right, likeuh I think the book makes it
where new clinicians, if they'rejust starting, if they just
took the basic training in EMDRa and they're just starting in
their centre, like you're able,after reading the book, to have
confidence and making meaningand making sense of.
(05:22):
And then for all of us who areseasoned therapists, it was a
really nice um validation of thework that we're already doing
in regards to what is it like tohave a gateway, like to just
put it into making um implicituh the memory networks, um, or
(05:44):
or how um as we are uh whenwe're working on the centre, how
we're working on thatmoment-to-moment strategies,
like what happens when we movebetween EMDR faces and centre
conversations.
Um again, uh I think when Ifirst read it, um, and for all
(06:06):
of you who know that I lovereading, um I take notes.
Um, for that reason, becausefirst of all, I don't want to
highlight books anymore.
Because one, then I becomeaware later and tell me if this
is for both of you too.
Then I become later aware ofwhat was I thinking before that
was important, and then likewhat I think is important now.
(06:26):
So then most of the books arehighlighted like in different
colors now.
And as a book lover, it hurtsnow.
I'm getting into that age now.
So now I make notes um aboutwhat I'm reading.
But I I as I was searching foruh what is it that I wanted to
share with this book, um, Ithink it's uh it's a beautiful
(06:49):
way of having a bridge betweenthese two models.
And you have the ability ofstorytelling, of simplifying
something that we can think ofas complex, especially when
we're trying to bridge tomodels, but you have this
ability to simplify it.
And then with the cases thatyou bring in, the the way that
(07:09):
you write it, like it's abeautiful storytelling.
Ana Gomez (07:12):
Well, thanks, Liiana.
I very much appreciate that.
You see, um, I think EMDR um itis it is a very powerful
approach supported by researchand sand tray therapy is a very
powerful approach, but when theyare brought together, they
(07:33):
generate such powerful synergyand one that really reaches uh
layers of experience beyond whatwords can access, right?
Because verbal language, Imean, we know that when uh
individuals are uhphysiologically activated
(07:56):
because of trauma or thinkingabout trauma, or there is a
trigger in the environment thatactivated the trauma, we know
that their verbal capacities arediminished.
We do have studies that showthe broca area um is shut down,
you know, so we can bephysiologically activated while
(08:18):
verbally inhibited.
And I and I can only hope for ashift in paradigm in terms of
how we see trauma work andhealing, because a lot of
therapists, especiallytherapists working with
adolescents and working withadults, they have a strong bias
towards verbal communication,which is interesting because is
(08:40):
the one that goes offline first.
And I think we need to open oneof my hopes is that this book
can contribute to that, openingnew channels through which we
can support our clients of allages in their journey towards
healing and realizing wholeness,and for clinicians to be able
(09:02):
to use a different language orat least uh give different
channels and pathways andportals into the mind, into the
embodied mind, and into memorysystems that hold traumagic
material.
Liliana Baylon (09:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that, right?
Because as clinicians, um, Ifeel and tell me if you agree,
Mandia, but as clinicians, wewere trained to um do talk
therapy, and we get reallyuncomfortable when everyone goes
quiet.
So, like, give me something.
And and the beauty of umSantre, and it and even lately
(09:40):
on EMDR trainings is it's okayif if we don't if it's not
organized in order for you tosay it right away.
Like, can you show me?
And then with the populationthat I work with, um, when
there's a sense of loyalty, Icannot share this because I will
be betraying them, or it's notorganized in a language yet.
(10:02):
Um like it happens in thislanguage, in my native language.
And if I go to a therapist andit's too close and I want to
externalize it in anotherlanguage in order to separate,
um, right?
Like when we do it in thecentre, like it's giving me
permission and the easiness ofbeing able to do it.
(10:24):
So again, um, such a beautifulway.
The other thing that Iappreciate it is how you go from
individual and you'rementioning teens.
Um, I um I think when wediscuss even like do it between
(10:46):
parent and child um or doing agroup.
Um, I think a lot of us when wego to basic training, we get
frustrated because we don'tunderstand that in basic
training, we're getting thebasics.
That's why we need to go toadvanced uh trainings.
But we want to figure out likehow to do this right away and
the way that you divide yourchapters.
It was a really nice way ofeven giving us um more of a
(11:11):
sample of like this is what itcan look like um uh for for all
of you.
Ana Gomez (11:17):
Yeah, and to add to what you were saying in terms of
how trauma again is expressedand in and trauma lives in
sensations, embodied perception,impulses, uh not necessarily
well-organized uh verbalnarratives.
So through the centre thatprovides a safe space for the
(11:39):
child, the adolescent, and theadult, then this sensations,
these patterns of um autonomicstates, uh, meta perceptions,
impulses, and attachment andrelational templates unfold, all
of them unfold in sand world ina way that creates the
(12:03):
beautiful distance where and andyou said it before, where the
mind can travel from implicitinto explicit memory because
it's not a binary uh space.
We're not talking about eitheror, but instead a whole
continuum that the mind travelsthrough.
(12:25):
And for example, many childrenstart with implicit
reprocessing, which I think isone of the big contributions of
the book to name it implicitreprocessing, because so far in
the MDR therapy, we have reliedon just explicit reprocessing
where there is ownership, it'sme, it's mine, itself.
(12:48):
And yet uh children, forexample, uh, and adults with a
narrow window of affecttolerance, they have a hard time
accessing it that way andowning it.
Sometimes it's toodysregulating, sometimes it's
too big, too heavy.
And through implicitreprocessing, we give the mind
(13:12):
an outlet, a pathway, a portalinto the memory network that is
easier, organic.
It may be the story of a kittycat, a dog, a llama that is
being hurt.
Perpetrator victim dynamics canunfold in the Sand world
without ownership.
(13:34):
Yeah, it's not me, it's not theperpetrator I had, it's not my
shame, it's not my fear, it'snot my terror, is the llama's
terror.
And with that level ofdistance, then reprocessing
actually can happen fasterbecause of that distance that
implicit reprocessing offers tothe mind.
(13:54):
Yeah, it feels safer.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (13:56):
Yes, yeah, I love that.
I think I think EMDR is verymagical, right?
Like you don't they don't needto verbalize what they're
processing, right?
And it's really nice to havethat.
I think sand tray is magical,right?
Giving in a container, takingaway the need for verbalization
and for showing up, right?
(14:17):
Uh I anytime you put your handsin the sand for sand tray work,
like things happen whether youwant them to or not.
I've been in plenty oftrainings myself.
I'm like, I'm just gonna belike, I'm gonna keep my wall.
No, no, you touch the sand andmagic happens.
But I love the combination ofthese two because we have the
power of EMDR and thepermission, like, you don't have
(14:39):
to talk, we're going to be ableto process this.
But then the sand tray offers acontainer.
Because I know in some of myown work with really complex
trauma, EMDR, as much as we putall the preventative measures
and the safety measures up, likeit can be really flooding for
them.
And I think the idea of havinga sand tray to hold that and
(15:00):
give them an external visualplace to put all of that is
really, really, I mean, it'sit's magical.
Ana Gomez (15:08):
Yeah, and and part of um what we do in EMDR that I
think so many have contributedto it, that is in the book, is
uh is a titration continuum, isthe concept that we borrow from
pharmacology of microdosing andbringing it into EMDR therapy
(15:28):
where there's not just one entryroad into the memory system.
So imagining the memory networkas a house that we can
certainly enter through thefront door where we just go into
assessment phase, access it,activate it, boom, go into
channels of association withoutany restriction.
(15:50):
Certainly that may work wellfor a lot of our clients, but
especially for clients exposedto chronic traumatization during
sensitive periods ofdevelopment, this door could be
highly activating and move themout into complete emotional
flooding.
And the sand tray offers abackdoor, right?
(16:11):
Another portal, not necessarilyfor everyone, but at least
there are other portals that wecan offer to our children,
adolescents, and adults thatdon't provide or create such
level of activation, and thatcan keep the client within
windows of tolerance, and theclient can still do incredible
(16:35):
work and process, reprocess alot of what exists in this
memory networks.
We have structures of you know,cognitive structures, emotional
structures, somatic structures,behavioral structures that
unfold in the tray, and the mindcan integrate without yet the
ownership.
(16:55):
But what I have witnessed for26 years, 25 years is this
movement, this journey, thistravel from implicit into
explicit that happens soorganically.
I'm thinking right now aboutmany of my clients where where
they started with a character,not me, not my terror, not my
(17:18):
fear, not my shame, just the thedogies of pain.
And yet, as we travel togetherand continue to reprocess
implicitly, one day uh a clientcomes in and says, you know
what, I'm gonna work on this.
And by the way, this is me, andby the way, that is those are
my parents.
(17:39):
And suddenly there is a senseof ownership very organically,
the mind arrived to is anarrival that we don't force,
it's an arrival that comesnatural to the mind, and we
honor that rhythm, right?
We honor the the embodiedmind's rhythm and and enjoin in
(18:01):
instead of forcing upon themind, you have to acknowledge
it, you have to recognize thatthis is your fear, right?
So it is really honoring thatjourney of the mind and what is
needed to access something thatquite often is so full of fear
and shame and terror.
Liliana Baylon (18:21):
So, for all of you, as Ana was describing
describing this, for all of youwho are working with DACA
recipients, that is exactly theprocess that we go with when
they have the shame of theirparents being undocumented and
them having like this ongoingstress and trauma of every so
(18:43):
often having to go and go to theprocess of getting that permit.
When you just I was like, youknow, my clients, that's exactly
what they want go through frombeing implicit to explicit to
working to acknowledging to beable to tolerate it because of
it.
And and and then you see theprogression that you just
(19:04):
mentioned, but I have seen thatagain with DACA recipients quite
often.
Ana Gomez (19:10):
Yeah, yeah.
What the mind is um not ableyet to acknowledge, recognize,
and I'm not going to say able,I'm going to say it does not
feel safe to access.
It does not feel safe yet toacknowledge and recognize, then
the symbol gives refuge to themind.
(19:34):
Yeah, and still, when you seethe sand worlds that clients of
all ages create, you see all thecognitive, affective, and
somatic structures right there.
You see the dog that isashamed, or the wizard that is
evil, or you see the um witch orfantasy figures that represent
(20:02):
evil, for example, or fear orterror.
You can also see, as I wassaying in the beginning, the
attachment system very muchreflected and represented in the
sand world through theminiature collection.
You see the caregiving system,you may see um an animal, a
child in the sand story thatdoesn't have a consistent
(20:25):
caregiver.
I'm remembering a client, anine-year-old, that created a
sand whirl, a divided sandwhirl.
On one side, you have a motherthat is loving and caring, and
on the other side, you have awitch that is the mother as
(20:46):
well, but is evil and trapped umPluto and Nemo into this
horrible space, this cave wherethey couldn't escape.
And really through the sandworld, it was so clear the how
the caregiving system at timeswas providing love or care and
(21:08):
protection, and yet this wasalso a caregiver that created
terror and fear.
So clearly, the foundation andthe basis of disorganized
attachment was right there,activating two different
systems.
The defense system as theparent is the source of fear,
and yet activating theattachment system as the
(21:30):
caregiver was also the source ofsafety and survival.
That was just um so painful andbeautiful to witness how in the
Santray it can show up in waysthat are developmentally
appropriate for a child that isnine or 10 or 11, or you know,
even teenagers, but adults dothe same very much.
(21:51):
Yeah if we give them theopportunity.
Liliana Baylon (21:54):
Yeah.
So as uh we're getting closerto the NF pocket, which I feel
like we can continue talkingabout this and the benefits for
all of you listening.
I'm wondering, Anna, how do wedivide this into two questions?
What is it that you wanna tellclinicians who are just
tiptoeing into EMD Art andSantre, um, which this book can
(22:17):
be an introduction.
Um, for all of you listening,uh, go to Anna's website because
she has a lot of trainings andI know you're promoting the
Santray.
Um, and I think you have it inSpanish this time around, isn't
it?
Ana Gomez (22:29):
Yeah, I'm so excited for the very first time that we
have it in Spanish.
Yes.
Liliana Baylon (22:35):
So if you're bilingual, that is gonna be a
really cool being part of thefirst cohort.
Um, okay, let me check thedates.
Maybe I'll join all of you, butin the meantime, let me go
back.
Um, what is it that you thatyou want the people who are just
barely tiptoeing?
Like what is the one um uhgiveaway that you wanna that you
(22:57):
want, what is the one thingthat you want to tell them to
the one to the people who arejust training?
And then what is another thatyou want to give to the people
who are seasoned therapists whohave done EMDR, who have done
sound trait um therapy?
What is the what is it that youwant to tell them about this
book and why they have to readit?
Ana Gomez (23:15):
Okay, and and before I go on, I want to say that uh
all the examples that I give inpresentations are composite
cases.
Okay.
There are a composite case ofmany of the cases that I work
with.
So the case that I justpresented is not an actual real
case, but very much could be.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (23:34):
Yeah.
Ana Gomez (23:34):
Okay, so what do I want uh clinicians to know about
this book and how this book canhelp them?
So number one, I think the bookwill give them a new pathway, a
new way of thinking, a new wayof conceptualizing the work.
And this book, I have to say,is for the therapist that is
just training the MDR, but it'salso for the experienced
(23:58):
clinician because it goes deep.
It it proposes new ideas andnew ways of conceptualizing even
the MDR, um, proposing a way oflooking at the adaptive
information processing model orsystem, not just as an
individual system, but assystemic and dyadic system and
(24:19):
how we um reinforce and createnew synaptic networks and a new
synaptic architecture throughrelationships.
So there are a lot of elementsand theories that I think will
support clinicians.
Doesn't matter where they areon their journey.
(24:44):
And I hope that this book cangive clinicians a new pathway, a
new possibility.
I don't think there is one wayof delivering EMDR therapy, and
what this book proposes is evenbeyond EMDR Santray because it's
a multimodal approach to EMDRSan Trey where we incorporate
(25:06):
polyvagal uh-basedinterventions, but also
polyvagal ways ofconceptualizing what's
happening.
So it's a transtheoreticalapproach as well that enriches
the AIP model with attachmenttheory, dissociation theory,
polyvagal theory, interpersonalbiology.
So it gives um an expanded wayof conceptualizing,
(25:31):
understanding, and also makingintentional decisions when you
come to the therapeutic process.
It's also a book that places agreat deal of um importance on
the therapeutic relationship.
So this the work with EMDR,AMDR Santray, is a radical
relational approach where we arethe most important tool in the
(25:55):
process in how we can workindividually, systemically,
diadically, and how you knowclinicians can find new portals
into the journey of accompanyingclients through their healing
journeys.
So I can that I can only hopethat clinicians can use it.
(26:16):
It has theory, certainly, butit has a lot of how-tos.
This is how you may want to sayit.
Here are here is a format thatyou can use.
Here are some ideas, veryspecific interventions.
So not only has the theory waysof conceptualizing the clinical
(26:36):
landscape of the client, butalso it offers a lot of how-tos.
This is how you do it, and itoffers multiple protocols.
But let me say a little bitabout protocols.
It even though the protocol isthere, it really emphasizes the
moment-to-moment decisionmaking, case conceptualization,
(26:58):
and how we don't deliver it likea cookie-cutter form of
treatment, right?
It's not protocol-based, but itreally offers a way of
delivering EMDR San tray thatexpands into an approach, right?
Not just how I read and use aprotocol, but how I
(27:19):
conceptualize it, how I makedecisions, how I am intentional
in how I deliver EMDR San tray,how I am at the same time very
aware of what's emerging in mynervous system moment to moment,
and how I remain connected tomyself, and how I can mentalize
(27:39):
and hold the mind of the clientin mind.
So it's very relational andcomplex and yet offered in a way
that is easy to understand,digest, and actually use.
Oh, beautiful.
What a gift.
Liliana Baylon (28:00):
Yes.
Um, I think when you weretalking, I was like, oh yeah,
that's right.
Because the impression that Igot from this book was exactly a
therapist um regulation, um,and how we become the the anchor
um in the room for our clients.
Um, and then the reminder,right?
Which is how do you how can youhold all this information and
(28:23):
then make adaptations for theclient that is in front of you,
and how culture lives in thesymbol and in the sand.
Um what is the meaning that theclient is given to the symbol,
not what we perceive that is themeaning of the symbol.
Like if you touch on culture,attachment, neurobiology, like
(28:44):
oh yeah, yeah, it's uh rich ininformation, Anna.
Ana Gomez (28:47):
It has a lot of pieces, yeah.
Yeah, it is the product of 25years of delivering this and
sitting down and thinking aboutit and reflecting and writing.
So it is a process that changesyou so deeply.
Yeah.
Writing a book and reallysitting with it, digesting it,
(29:11):
having moments of just thinkingabout human existence.
You know, I have thatexistentialist tendencies, and
really diving deep and what intowhat it means to be human, and
what what it means to exist, andour path into realizing
(29:35):
wholeness, the path intobecoming and unbecoming, and
walking alongside with my ownprocess, with my own work, and
diving deep into deep layers ofself has been such a journey
that is not just anintellectualized process, but
(29:58):
it's highly embodied and and onethat calls for somatic
intelligence.
This is something that we alsouse in the Santray, for example,
where we can go from object andsymbol to self and work very
closely with the soma.
So it's it's um it's it's workthat for me has transformed uh
(30:25):
me in so many different ways.
The writer behind it's a humanthat is being transformed in the
process.
Liliana Baylon (30:35):
And you're such a gift, even the way that you're
just describing that was like,yeah, everyone is um lucky to
not only to read your work.
but also to be trained by you.
Ana Gomez (30:45):
Thank you.
Thank you both.
Liliana Baylon (30:49):
So for all of you listeners, we will include
um uh a link to um so if youhave not get the book so that
you can go get the book and thena link um to Anna's website so
if you want to go get trainedand if you're bilingual and if
you want to be part of the firstcohort and be part of that
amazing picture please do so.
Um Anna, thank you um for forbeing here and for your wisdom
(31:13):
um and for keep uh sharing yourknowledge well thank you it was
just a pleasure to spend thetime with both of you with your
audience with everyone that islistening to us uh this is how
we promote change right we wehave conversations that could be
challenging and difficult butexpand our awareness our field
(31:35):
of consciousness so I very muchappreciate this moment and um
I'm finishing this with immensegratitude for the two of you
thank you anna yeah what a giftand we'll have you we'll have
you back hopefully really soonthank you yeah till next time
(31:58):
listeners
Welcome back, listeners, for another
episode of O Heroes Welcomepodcast.
I'm your co-host,Maria LaquerreDiego, and I'm
joined by my lovely co-host, theone and only crazy one, Liliana
Baylon.
Liliana Baylon (00:48):
And we are here with the special guest.
Um, I'm stretching my hands asif you can see me.
Um, why not?
Uh, we are here with Ana Gomez.
Hey, Ana, how are you doingtoday?
Ana Gomez (01:00):
I'm good.
Very excited to be together.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's it's an honor and aprivilege to be able to spend
time with you and your audience.
So thank you.
Liliana Baylon (01:13):
Welcome.
And we are here.
You have two books out there,but today we're gonna focus on
one, correctly?
So we were gonna be talkingabout the EMDR a and Sand-based
therapy book.
That's your baby.
Ana Gomez (01:25):
That is a baby.
Yes, it's a big baby, it's ababy that I have nurtured for
many, many years.
So I was trained in the EMDR,it's gonna be 26 years ago, and
shortly after I started to putthem together because I was
using just sand tray therapybefore I was trained in the
EMDR.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (01:45):
Okay.
Ana Gomez (01:46):
But because I was working with very complex
clinical presentations, I wastrying to figure out what would
be the best way to work,especially with children, and
then started to combine themboth.
Liliana Baylon (02:00):
Yes.
So um when you um share youryour book, your your baby, with
all of us um in the field, um, Imean, everything about the book
um was beautiful, but like formyself and and and we were gonna
take turns, but I wanted to saylike thank you because when
(02:21):
you're working with migrants andeither language is an issue,
issue, uh, family loyalty is anissue, um or uh you know, other
systemic issues come in the way,like this book, because we're
focusing on Santray, um, isgiving uh clinicians um uh a
(02:43):
gateway, a path where uh verbalstory uh maybe fractured, um a
way of how to do EMDR a umthrough uh externally, and then
you and you talk in the in thebook beautifully about it, but
um I thought for all of us,either if you're working with
migrants or if you're workingacross cultures and language,
(03:06):
it's an issue, it's a barrier.
What a beautiful way in thisbook to describe how to do the
work with.
Ana Gomez (03:14):
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
Because our native languagereally is symbols.
I mean, think about how wedream.
See, we we don't dream inwell-organized verbal
narratives, but instead uh ourdreams are full of stories,
(03:34):
metaphors, and symbols.
That is really our nativelanguage and is the language
that we use to communicate atsuch deep level with self.
So, yes, definitely, you know,a symbol can encompass a nervous
system pattern, for example,without having to verbalize it.
(03:55):
You may have an angry tigerfighting everyone.
See, that in itself is arepresentation and a
physicalization of a nervoussystem state.
Uh, a dissociative part mayshow up, may show up in in the
sand world.
Patterns of attachment andconnection, the relational
(04:17):
template of the the child, theadolescent, the adult may show
up as a figure that is distant.
The caregiven system shows upin the sand world in in the form
that is developmentallyappropriate, especially for
children, but also it provides apathway to the mind that feels
completely overwhelmed.
(04:39):
And the symbol provides a levelof distance that allows the
mind to express what otherwisewould be so overwhelming, but
also it it provides uh a mirrorto the mind, a way for the mind
to dialogue with itself throughsymbols.
Liliana Baylon (05:00):
Yeah.
So um, and again, right, likeuh I think the book makes it
where new clinicians, if they'rejust starting, if they just
took the basic training in EMDRa and they're just starting in
their centre, like you're able,after reading the book, to have
confidence and making meaningand making sense of.
(05:22):
And then for all of us who areseasoned therapists, it was a
really nice um validation of thework that we're already doing
in regards to what is it like tohave a gateway, like to just
put it into making um implicituh the memory networks, um, or
(05:44):
or how um as we are uh whenwe're working on the centre, how
we're working on thatmoment-to-moment strategies,
like what happens when we movebetween EMDR faces and centre
conversations.
Um again, uh I think when Ifirst read it, um, and for all
(06:06):
of you who know that I lovereading, um I take notes.
Um, for that reason, becausefirst of all, I don't want to
highlight books anymore.
Because one, then I becomeaware later and tell me if this
is for both of you too.
Then I become later aware ofwhat was I thinking before that
was important, and then likewhat I think is important now.
(06:26):
So then most of the books arehighlighted like in different
colors now.
And as a book lover, it hurtsnow.
I'm getting into that age now.
So now I make notes um aboutwhat I'm reading.
But I I as I was searching foruh what is it that I wanted to
share with this book, um, Ithink it's uh it's a beautiful
(06:49):
way of having a bridge betweenthese two models.
And you have the ability ofstorytelling, of simplifying
something that we can think ofas complex, especially when
we're trying to bridge tomodels, but you have this
ability to simplify it.
And then with the cases thatyou bring in, the the way that
(07:09):
you write it, like it's abeautiful storytelling.
Ana Gomez (07:12):
Well, thanks, Liiana.
I very much appreciate that.
You see, um, I think EMDR um itis it is a very powerful
approach supported by researchand sand tray therapy is a very
powerful approach, but when theyare brought together, they
(07:33):
generate such powerful synergyand one that really reaches uh
layers of experience beyond whatwords can access, right?
Because verbal language, Imean, we know that when uh
individuals are uhphysiologically activated
(07:56):
because of trauma or thinkingabout trauma, or there is a
trigger in the environment thatactivated the trauma, we know
that their verbal capacities arediminished.
We do have studies that showthe broca area um is shut down,
you know, so we can bephysiologically activated while
(08:18):
verbally inhibited.
And I and I can only hope for ashift in paradigm in terms of
how we see trauma work andhealing, because a lot of
therapists, especiallytherapists working with
adolescents and working withadults, they have a strong bias
towards verbal communication,which is interesting because is
(08:40):
the one that goes offline first.
And I think we need to open oneof my hopes is that this book
can contribute to that, openingnew channels through which we
can support our clients of allages in their journey towards
healing and realizing wholeness,and for clinicians to be able
(09:02):
to use a different language orat least uh give different
channels and pathways andportals into the mind, into the
embodied mind, and into memorysystems that hold traumagic
material.
Liliana Baylon (09:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that, right?
Because as clinicians, um, Ifeel and tell me if you agree,
Mandia, but as clinicians, wewere trained to um do talk
therapy, and we get reallyuncomfortable when everyone goes
quiet.
So, like, give me something.
And and the beauty of umSantre, and it and even lately
(09:40):
on EMDR trainings is it's okayif if we don't if it's not
organized in order for you tosay it right away.
Like, can you show me?
And then with the populationthat I work with, um, when
there's a sense of loyalty, Icannot share this because I will
be betraying them, or it's notorganized in a language yet.
(10:02):
Um like it happens in thislanguage, in my native language.
And if I go to a therapist andit's too close and I want to
externalize it in anotherlanguage in order to separate,
um, right?
Like when we do it in thecentre, like it's giving me
permission and the easiness ofbeing able to do it.
(10:24):
So again, um, such a beautifulway.
The other thing that Iappreciate it is how you go from
individual and you'rementioning teens.
Um, I um I think when wediscuss even like do it between
(10:46):
parent and child um or doing agroup.
Um, I think a lot of us when wego to basic training, we get
frustrated because we don'tunderstand that in basic
training, we're getting thebasics.
That's why we need to go toadvanced uh trainings.
But we want to figure out likehow to do this right away and
the way that you divide yourchapters.
It was a really nice way ofeven giving us um more of a
(11:11):
sample of like this is what itcan look like um uh for for all
of you.
Ana Gomez (11:17):
Yeah, and to add to what you were saying in terms of
how trauma again is expressedand in and trauma lives in
sensations, embodied perception,impulses, uh not necessarily
well-organized uh verbalnarratives.
So through the centre thatprovides a safe space for the
(11:39):
child, the adolescent, and theadult, then this sensations,
these patterns of um autonomicstates, uh, meta perceptions,
impulses, and attachment andrelational templates unfold, all
of them unfold in sand world ina way that creates the
(12:03):
beautiful distance where and andyou said it before, where the
mind can travel from implicitinto explicit memory because
it's not a binary uh space.
We're not talking about eitheror, but instead a whole
continuum that the mind travelsthrough.
(12:25):
And for example, many childrenstart with implicit
reprocessing, which I think isone of the big contributions of
the book to name it implicitreprocessing, because so far in
the MDR therapy, we have reliedon just explicit reprocessing
where there is ownership, it'sme, it's mine, itself.
(12:48):
And yet uh children, forexample, uh, and adults with a
narrow window of affecttolerance, they have a hard time
accessing it that way andowning it.
Sometimes it's toodysregulating, sometimes it's
too big, too heavy.
And through implicitreprocessing, we give the mind
(13:12):
an outlet, a pathway, a portalinto the memory network that is
easier, organic.
It may be the story of a kittycat, a dog, a llama that is
being hurt.
Perpetrator victim dynamics canunfold in the Sand world
without ownership.
(13:34):
Yeah, it's not me, it's not theperpetrator I had, it's not my
shame, it's not my fear, it'snot my terror, is the llama's
terror.
And with that level ofdistance, then reprocessing
actually can happen fasterbecause of that distance that
implicit reprocessing offers tothe mind.
(13:54):
Yeah, it feels safer.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (13:56):
Yes, yeah, I love that.
I think I think EMDR is verymagical, right?
Like you don't they don't needto verbalize what they're
processing, right?
And it's really nice to havethat.
I think sand tray is magical,right?
Giving in a container, takingaway the need for verbalization
and for showing up, right?
(14:17):
Uh I anytime you put your handsin the sand for sand tray work,
like things happen whether youwant them to or not.
I've been in plenty oftrainings myself.
I'm like, I'm just gonna belike, I'm gonna keep my wall.
No, no, you touch the sand andmagic happens.
But I love the combination ofthese two because we have the
power of EMDR and thepermission, like, you don't have
(14:39):
to talk, we're going to be ableto process this.
But then the sand tray offers acontainer.
Because I know in some of myown work with really complex
trauma, EMDR, as much as we putall the preventative measures
and the safety measures up, likeit can be really flooding for
them.
And I think the idea of havinga sand tray to hold that and
(15:00):
give them an external visualplace to put all of that is
really, really, I mean, it'sit's magical.
Ana Gomez (15:08):
Yeah, and and part of um what we do in EMDR that I
think so many have contributedto it, that is in the book, is
uh is a titration continuum, isthe concept that we borrow from
pharmacology of microdosing andbringing it into EMDR therapy
(15:28):
where there's not just one entryroad into the memory system.
So imagining the memory networkas a house that we can
certainly enter through thefront door where we just go into
assessment phase, access it,activate it, boom, go into
channels of association withoutany restriction.
(15:50):
Certainly that may work wellfor a lot of our clients, but
especially for clients exposedto chronic traumatization during
sensitive periods ofdevelopment, this door could be
highly activating and move themout into complete emotional
flooding.
And the sand tray offers abackdoor, right?
(16:11):
Another portal, not necessarilyfor everyone, but at least
there are other portals that wecan offer to our children,
adolescents, and adults thatdon't provide or create such
level of activation, and thatcan keep the client within
windows of tolerance, and theclient can still do incredible
(16:35):
work and process, reprocess alot of what exists in this
memory networks.
We have structures of you know,cognitive structures, emotional
structures, somatic structures,behavioral structures that
unfold in the tray, and the mindcan integrate without yet the
ownership.
(16:55):
But what I have witnessed for26 years, 25 years is this
movement, this journey, thistravel from implicit into
explicit that happens soorganically.
I'm thinking right now aboutmany of my clients where where
they started with a character,not me, not my terror, not my
(17:18):
fear, not my shame, just the thedogies of pain.
And yet, as we travel togetherand continue to reprocess
implicitly, one day uh a clientcomes in and says, you know
what, I'm gonna work on this.
And by the way, this is me, andby the way, that is those are
my parents.
(17:39):
And suddenly there is a senseof ownership very organically,
the mind arrived to is anarrival that we don't force,
it's an arrival that comesnatural to the mind, and we
honor that rhythm, right?
We honor the the embodiedmind's rhythm and and enjoin in
(18:01):
instead of forcing upon themind, you have to acknowledge
it, you have to recognize thatthis is your fear, right?
So it is really honoring thatjourney of the mind and what is
needed to access something thatquite often is so full of fear
and shame and terror.
Liliana Baylon (18:21):
So, for all of you, as Ana was describing
describing this, for all of youwho are working with DACA
recipients, that is exactly theprocess that we go with when
they have the shame of theirparents being undocumented and
them having like this ongoingstress and trauma of every so
(18:43):
often having to go and go to theprocess of getting that permit.
When you just I was like, youknow, my clients, that's exactly
what they want go through frombeing implicit to explicit to
working to acknowledging to beable to tolerate it because of
it.
And and and then you see theprogression that you just
(19:04):
mentioned, but I have seen thatagain with DACA recipients quite
often.
Ana Gomez (19:10):
Yeah, yeah.
What the mind is um not ableyet to acknowledge, recognize,
and I'm not going to say able,I'm going to say it does not
feel safe to access.
It does not feel safe yet toacknowledge and recognize, then
the symbol gives refuge to themind.
(19:34):
Yeah, and still, when you seethe sand worlds that clients of
all ages create, you see all thecognitive, affective, and
somatic structures right there.
You see the dog that isashamed, or the wizard that is
evil, or you see the um witch orfantasy figures that represent
(20:02):
evil, for example, or fear orterror.
You can also see, as I wassaying in the beginning, the
attachment system very muchreflected and represented in the
sand world through theminiature collection.
You see the caregiving system,you may see um an animal, a
child in the sand story thatdoesn't have a consistent
(20:25):
caregiver.
I'm remembering a client, anine-year-old, that created a
sand whirl, a divided sandwhirl.
On one side, you have a motherthat is loving and caring, and
on the other side, you have awitch that is the mother as
(20:46):
well, but is evil and trapped umPluto and Nemo into this
horrible space, this cave wherethey couldn't escape.
And really through the sandworld, it was so clear the how
the caregiving system at timeswas providing love or care and
(21:08):
protection, and yet this wasalso a caregiver that created
terror and fear.
So clearly, the foundation andthe basis of disorganized
attachment was right there,activating two different
systems.
The defense system as theparent is the source of fear,
and yet activating theattachment system as the
(21:30):
caregiver was also the source ofsafety and survival.
That was just um so painful andbeautiful to witness how in the
Santray it can show up in waysthat are developmentally
appropriate for a child that isnine or 10 or 11, or you know,
even teenagers, but adults dothe same very much.
(21:51):
Yeah if we give them theopportunity.
Liliana Baylon (21:54):
Yeah.
So as uh we're getting closerto the NF pocket, which I feel
like we can continue talkingabout this and the benefits for
all of you listening.
I'm wondering, Anna, how do wedivide this into two questions?
What is it that you wanna tellclinicians who are just
tiptoeing into EMD Art andSantre, um, which this book can
(22:17):
be an introduction.
Um, for all of you listening,uh, go to Anna's website because
she has a lot of trainings andI know you're promoting the
Santray.
Um, and I think you have it inSpanish this time around, isn't
it?
Ana Gomez (22:29):
Yeah, I'm so excited for the very first time that we
have it in Spanish.
Yes.
Liliana Baylon (22:35):
So if you're bilingual, that is gonna be a
really cool being part of thefirst cohort.
Um, okay, let me check thedates.
Maybe I'll join all of you, butin the meantime, let me go
back.
Um, what is it that you thatyou want the people who are just
barely tiptoeing?
Like what is the one um uhgiveaway that you wanna that you
(22:57):
want, what is the one thingthat you want to tell them to
the one to the people who arejust training?
And then what is another thatyou want to give to the people
who are seasoned therapists whohave done EMDR, who have done
sound trait um therapy?
What is the what is it that youwant to tell them about this
book and why they have to readit?
Ana Gomez (23:15):
Okay, and and before I go on, I want to say that uh
all the examples that I give inpresentations are composite
cases.
Okay.
There are a composite case ofmany of the cases that I work
with.
So the case that I justpresented is not an actual real
case, but very much could be.
Maria Laquerre-Diego (23:34):
Yeah.
Ana Gomez (23:34):
Okay, so what do I want uh clinicians to know about
this book and how this book canhelp them?
So number one, I think the bookwill give them a new pathway, a
new way of thinking, a new wayof conceptualizing the work.
And this book, I have to say,is for the therapist that is
just training the MDR, but it'salso for the experienced
(23:58):
clinician because it goes deep.
It it proposes new ideas andnew ways of conceptualizing even
the MDR, um, proposing a way oflooking at the adaptive
information processing model orsystem, not just as an
individual system, but assystemic and dyadic system and
(24:19):
how we um reinforce and createnew synaptic networks and a new
synaptic architecture throughrelationships.
So there are a lot of elementsand theories that I think will
support clinicians.
Doesn't matter where they areon their journey.
(24:44):
And I hope that this book cangive clinicians a new pathway, a
new possibility.
I don't think there is one wayof delivering EMDR therapy, and
what this book proposes is evenbeyond EMDR Santray because it's
a multimodal approach to EMDRSan Trey where we incorporate
(25:06):
polyvagal uh-basedinterventions, but also
polyvagal ways ofconceptualizing what's
happening.
So it's a transtheoreticalapproach as well that enriches
the AIP model with attachmenttheory, dissociation theory,
polyvagal theory, interpersonalbiology.
So it gives um an expanded wayof conceptualizing,
(25:31):
understanding, and also makingintentional decisions when you
come to the therapeutic process.
It's also a book that places agreat deal of um importance on
the therapeutic relationship.
So this the work with EMDR,AMDR Santray, is a radical
relational approach where we arethe most important tool in the
(25:55):
process in how we can workindividually, systemically,
diadically, and how you knowclinicians can find new portals
into the journey of accompanyingclients through their healing
journeys.
So I can that I can only hopethat clinicians can use it.
(26:16):
It has theory, certainly, butit has a lot of how-tos.
This is how you may want to sayit.
Here are here is a format thatyou can use.
Here are some ideas, veryspecific interventions.
So not only has the theory waysof conceptualizing the clinical
(26:36):
landscape of the client, butalso it offers a lot of how-tos.
This is how you do it, and itoffers multiple protocols.
But let me say a little bitabout protocols.
It even though the protocol isthere, it really emphasizes the
moment-to-moment decisionmaking, case conceptualization,
(26:58):
and how we don't deliver it likea cookie-cutter form of
treatment, right?
It's not protocol-based, but itreally offers a way of
delivering EMDR San tray thatexpands into an approach, right?
Not just how I read and use aprotocol, but how I
(27:19):
conceptualize it, how I makedecisions, how I am intentional
in how I deliver EMDR San tray,how I am at the same time very
aware of what's emerging in mynervous system moment to moment,
and how I remain connected tomyself, and how I can mentalize
(27:39):
and hold the mind of the clientin mind.
So it's very relational andcomplex and yet offered in a way
that is easy to understand,digest, and actually use.
Oh, beautiful.
What a gift.
Liliana Baylon (28:00):
Yes.
Um, I think when you weretalking, I was like, oh yeah,
that's right.
Because the impression that Igot from this book was exactly a
therapist um regulation, um,and how we become the the anchor
um in the room for our clients.
Um, and then the reminder,right?
Which is how do you how can youhold all this information and
(28:23):
then make adaptations for theclient that is in front of you,
and how culture lives in thesymbol and in the sand.
Um what is the meaning that theclient is given to the symbol,
not what we perceive that is themeaning of the symbol.
Like if you touch on culture,attachment, neurobiology, like
(28:44):
oh yeah, yeah, it's uh rich ininformation, Anna.
Ana Gomez (28:47):
It has a lot of pieces, yeah.
Yeah, it is the product of 25years of delivering this and
sitting down and thinking aboutit and reflecting and writing.
So it is a process that changesyou so deeply.
Yeah.
Writing a book and reallysitting with it, digesting it,
(29:11):
having moments of just thinkingabout human existence.
You know, I have thatexistentialist tendencies, and
really diving deep and what intowhat it means to be human, and
what what it means to exist, andour path into realizing
(29:35):
wholeness, the path intobecoming and unbecoming, and
walking alongside with my ownprocess, with my own work, and
diving deep into deep layers ofself has been such a journey
that is not just anintellectualized process, but
(29:58):
it's highly embodied and and onethat calls for somatic
intelligence.
This is something that we alsouse in the Santray, for example,
where we can go from object andsymbol to self and work very
closely with the soma.
So it's it's um it's it's workthat for me has transformed uh
(30:25):
me in so many different ways.
The writer behind it's a humanthat is being transformed in the
process.
Liliana Baylon (30:35):
And you're such a gift, even the way that you're
just describing that was like,yeah, everyone is um lucky to
not only to read your work.
but also to be trained by you.
Ana Gomez (30:45):
Thank you.
Thank you both.
Liliana Baylon (30:49):
So for all of you listeners, we will include
um uh a link to um so if youhave not get the book so that
you can go get the book and thena link um to Anna's website so
if you want to go get trainedand if you're bilingual and if
you want to be part of the firstcohort and be part of that
amazing picture please do so.
Um Anna, thank you um for forbeing here and for your wisdom
(31:13):
um and for keep uh sharing yourknowledge well thank you it was
just a pleasure to spend thetime with both of you with your
audience with everyone that islistening to us uh this is how
we promote change right we wehave conversations that could be
challenging and difficult butexpand our awareness our field
(31:35):
of consciousness so I very muchappreciate this moment and um
I'm finishing this with immensegratitude for the two of you
thank you anna yeah what a giftand we'll have you we'll have
you back hopefully really soonthank you yeah till next time
(31:58):
listeners
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