December 11, 2025 • 37 mins
What happens when therapists bring their authentic, neurodivergent selves into the playroom? Magic, according to Heather Fairley-Denbrough, a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist supervisor with 16 years of experience.
Heather opens up about her relatively recent discovery of her own autism and ADHD, sharing how this self-knowledge has profoundly transformed her therapeutic relationships. Rather than maintaining the rigid professional boundaries many of us were taught in graduate school, Heather demonstrates how thoughtful self-disclosure creates deeper connections with clients - particularly neurodivergent children who desperately need to see examples of adults like them who are thriving.
Through beautiful examples like watching "K-Pop Demon Hunters" at a client's request and creating shared language around it, Heather illustrates how authenticity becomes a powerful therapeutic tool. When she told a long-term client about her autism diagnosis, the child's face registered pure amazement, leading to a year of rich exploration about what neurodivergence meant for them both. These moments of connection go far beyond traditional rapport-building; they create true healing relationships.
The conversation also tackles the persistent stigma around neurodivergence, even within mental health fields. All three podcast participants share experiences of being dismissed or misunderstood by colleagues or medical professionals because they were "high functioning" or successful. These stories highlight how much work remains to be done in normalizing neurodivergence and creating truly inclusive environments.
Perhaps most powerful is Heather's reminder that "if I'm not being the most congruent version of me that I can be, then I'm not actually in the room with the child." This statement cuts to the heart of effective therapy - authentic presence isn't just helpful but essential. As her mentor Lisa Dion advised: "I don't want you to do it like me, I want you to do it like you."
Has your own lived experience shaped your work with clients? We'd love to hear your stories of bringing your authentic self to therapeutic relationships.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome back listeners to another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, maria, andI'm here joined with my lovely
co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That's me, liliana Valen, and we're here with a
special guest Heather.
For anyone who does not knowabout you, how would you like to
introduce yourself to ouraudience?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So I am Heather Fairley-Denbrough.
I am a licensed clinical socialworker and registered play
therapist supervisor.
I'm also a super proudcertified synergetic play
therapy supervisor and I haveworked for 16 years in community
mental health in Vancouver,washington, where I see a
(01:20):
caseload of children quite asmall caseload at this point and
then I also in my specialtyareas and then I also supervise
five other therapists who areeither pursuing their RPT or
exploring their interest in playtherapy and sand therapy, in
play therapy and sand therapy.
And I have a consultationpractice called Playful
Integration where I do anythingthat I'm interested in actually.
(01:49):
So I do trainings and I dowebinars and I do really special
tender consultation groups forplay therapists.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Nice, so that's a lot of experience.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So, heather, what are we talking about today?
Well, as I was thinking about,what would I want to talk about
in this podcast, something thathas been really on the forefront
of my mind lately because I'mgetting to know myself a little
better and then I'm making thesereally different kinds of
connections with my clients isthe impact of lived experience
(02:30):
and self-disclosure in playtherapy and in therapy overall,
right and when with parents.
I'm in this really interestingprocess of so I've known that I
was autistic for quite some timemaybe, like I mean, when I say
quite some time, not quite sometime as in like my whole life,
but quite some time for me, asin like three years.
(02:51):
It was really interesting thatI didn't conceptualize that
about myself before then.
Really interesting that Ididn't conceptualize that about
myself before then.
But then lately I've beennoticing how my self-knowledge
is coming into the room in adifferent way and I'm
understanding childrendifferently.
(03:12):
I'm vibing with childrendifferently.
I feel more like myself in theroom than I've really ever felt,
and that's really interestingbecause I've been doing this
such a long time and that's whyI thought it might be something
interesting to talk about isbecause it's also a relatively
new experience for me.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I love that.
I think the termself-disclosure right.
I think anyone listening rightnow is like oh my God, no, yeah,
let's go there, we had itintegrated into ourselves in our
programming.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yes, More importantly , because I love when you say,
as I'm getting to know myself,and we're talking about life
experience, I think that is thething that they don't tell us
when we're in school, right,which is we're giving you this
foundation in regards to theorythat you're going to have to
throw out once you're out therepracticing.
And then the difference betweena new therapist and a seasonal
(04:11):
therapist is the life experiencethat you're talking about,
which is we can bring thattheory and make sense of it from
treatment plan for discussionwith other clinicians, but it's
the life experience that makesthat connection with the client.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yes, yes, I totally agree with that, you know and I.
It's interesting because overthe years I've discovered
different pieces of myselfthrough the work with the
children that I've been seeing.
I didn't even know that I hadsensory issues until there was a
(04:50):
day about, I think, about 10 or12 years ago, maybe even a
little more, where I was readingan OT report, a really
well-written OT report Thank you, ot who I can't remember the
name of, and it said somethingin.
There was when people werefirst starting to talk about
interoceptive differences, and Iread that paragraph and I just
(05:12):
thought, oh my God, that's mywhole life and I didn't know
until then that that's what Iwas experiencing yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I love that and I think that's part of we've
talked um before about right,like what we're needing to see,
sometimes shows up in ourplayroom, like right sometimes
in our playroom or our clinicalroom in general, sometimes what
shows up as a mirror forourselves as well, and it sounds
like that's kind of what theexperience that you had it was
(05:42):
like.
Oh, me too.
I have some wording around whatthis experience is, and I'm not
the only one.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yes, and I think that's a part of it.
It's like when I was thinkingabout what I wanted to talk
about here, I was like I justwant everybody to know that like
you can be open to the mirror.
Yeah, because sometimes it'sreally hard right, especially
with the training that we'regiven, with the way things like
this are talked about in gradschool.
(06:13):
You're like a bad person if youcare too much about your
clients and like all of that.
Right, I think that we're taught, and I think we're taught in
this, this particular societyoverall, to not allow ourselves
to reflect, and so the mirrorcomes and we're like we're not
(06:35):
looking at it right because itfeels so uncomfortable and I
really I feel like a big part ofmy practice as a supervisor is
helping my supervisees getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable and comfortablewith deep ambiguity and
liminality.
Yeah, so that we can look formirror.
(06:58):
We can be in the moment and seethe mirror.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
But even when, right, cause I was like, ooh, let me
be a devil's advocate here.
Yeah, cause, even when, um, andI am so comfortable, I just
realized that I'm like in mylike, my head is like so into
listening to you and leaninginto you.
But, yes, and what if you'renot ready?
Because I love when you started, which is I did not see myself
(07:24):
there and what happens for allof us who are therapists is that
, one, we're not givenpermission to be human in the
room.
Yes, yes, which I think is alarge part of what you're
discussing.
And then, two, when I'm notready to see, and even when I'm
ready to see, I'm not ready toprocess and therefore I cannot
integrate.
(07:45):
It's not that I'm comfortable oruncomfortable, it's that,
developmentally, everyone goesat a different pace in order to
integrate these pieces.
So we have to be careful alsonot only as therapists, but as
supervisors.
Which is, who's in the room?
Developmentally, where are they?
Yeah, so that I don't projectand become part of the system
(08:06):
that told me you cannot be humanin the room.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I love that.
Yeah, so since you've startedkind of integrating this into
your own practice and in yoursupervision, what has shifted
for you with your own clinicalwork or in your supervision?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
work.
I know this thing about myselfand I'm getting more and more
comfortable talking about it.
It's becoming more like anintegrated part of how I view
the world, right, like I'mallowing it to.
(08:46):
I mean, it's always been that,but I'm allowing it to really
fully become that I feel thatthe connections that I'm making
with the autistic andneurodivergent kids that I see
are just, it's so interesting,like there's so many words that
(09:10):
come to my mind, but the firstone that kind of popped into my
head was like comfortable,they're so full of ease.
Now there's there's this senseof ease.
Right, we're just here together, doing what we do, doing what
we want to do and being how wewant to be, and it's really
(09:36):
lovely to see.
I had an experience not thatlong ago where a young client
told me, slash begged me towatch K-pop, demon Hunters, okay
.
So I will tell you I do not as aas a person, I don't watch a
lot of children's media.
(09:57):
I kind of keep the childlikepart of myself for work and I
engage in a lot of other kindsof media at home, right, so I
don't often watch things unlessI'm like, yeah, that'd probably
be pretty good for play therapyand I didn't really plan on
(10:20):
watching that, but my kid wasjust like, heather, you have to
watch it.
And I was like, okay, all right.
And then I forgot about it fora week and I came back and kid
was like, did you watch it?
And I was like I kind of didn'tand they were like I'm so
disappointed, yeah, and I waslike, oh, thank you for telling
(10:40):
me that's how you feel about it.
And I took out my phone and Iput it in my calendar, yeah, for
the next weekend.
And I was like, here, here itis, I'm gonna do it.
And I watched it and I was like, oh, wow, this is so beautiful.
And I was thinking about likebeing 10 years old and getting
(11:02):
to watch that and have themessage be, it's actually best
for everyone if you get to beexactly who you are.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Ding, ding, ding, ding ding and I was like this is
beautiful, right, it'sbeautiful, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And then you know, when I went back and I talked
with that kid and I was like Iactually had a really beautiful
emotional experience watchingthat.
I'm so glad you told me towatch it and we had this
incredible conversation about it.
And I think one of the thingsthat I think is so important
(11:43):
about being able to be open tomaking those kinds of lived
experience connections with kidsis that, like that child now
understands that there are alsoadults who have experienced the
things that that child hasexperienced.
(12:05):
And here I am I'm a cool playtherapist.
People, people don't bother me,I have a happy life, I'm okay,
even with all of the things thatI've experienced as an autistic
and very, very odd child.
I will say very odd child, youknow, I've I've figured my life
(12:30):
out and it's really good and Ithink it's it's like that.
That concept of elders, right,like even neurodivergent
children, need representation ofneurodivergent people who are
thriving and who deeply careabout them.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I love that.
I mean, we could talk for hourson K-pop and I won't, I won't,
we'll do another time.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
But Nadea sounded like that when she asked me to
watch it too.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I did so.
The kiddo inviting you that wasme inviting Liliana and Liliana
was like this is not my jam,Maria, and I was like I know, I
know, but just give me like twohours of your time and if you
absolutely hate, right like whatwe do with clients.
If you absolutely hate, we'llnever do this again.
What you know.
(13:20):
This could be easily writtenoff as like therapeutic rapport.
This, what happened, was somuch more, yes, so much more.
Right.
You invested in thisrelationship with this kiddo.
You learned now a sharedlanguage, right, because you can
talk about having roomy momentsor Zoe moments or Mira moments,
(13:40):
and that is a shared language.
Yes, right, and and again, this,this idea of shared experiences
, is so powerful.
It's therapeutic rapport getsthrown under the bus, right,
it's just like you know, be asafe person for your clients and
have a connection, and we cando so much more than just be
(14:01):
like oh, you like that, me too,but like, oh, you like that.
This is what that means for mein my life.
Tell me what that means for youin your life, right, I think
it's just so wonderful andbeautiful, and I hope more
clinicians are open to that,because it can be.
(14:21):
I mean, we've got a lot on ourplates, right.
We've got our caseloads and ourschedules and our documentation
and all the things, all thethings.
And when we can have moments ofoh, I'm going to do this so
that I can have a sharedexperience, with my caseload,
with my clients, with myselfeven.
I think that that's justbeautiful.
(14:42):
I think that that yeah, likegold stars all the way around,
and not just because I thinkthat movie is magical and has so
much healing potential.
And, good Lord, I would bedifferent adults if we had
movies like that in our ownchildhood.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
That's exactly what I thought when I was watching it.
Yeah, like that's why I cried.
I was like thinking about beingme at 10 years old and I was
the most awkward, weird, likelike looking at it now I'm like
I would totally be friends withthat kid, but at the time, other
(15:19):
kids were like you're obsessedwith cryptids and the X-Files.
Excuse me, who wasn't Right.
You dress like a candy cane,like my first like day of school
at my new middle school, and Ithought I was doing like the
greatest thing in the world.
I was like, yes, this outfit isit?
Okay, it was October.
(15:40):
Also, I wore this red skirt,like this really long red skirt
that my mom had gotten me at thethrift store, and I wore
literally this like candy caneprint mock turtleneck with like
a big bow on my head, and then Ihad this was like fifth grade,
and then I had these crazy redshoes and that is how I walked
(16:04):
into a school of children who,at the time, were wearing
flannels and guest jeans.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I was like where were you?
Because 70s Mexico, that soundslike very familiar to me of
children who at the time werewearing flannels and guest jeans
.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I was like where were you?
Because 70s Mexico, that soundslike very familiar to me, that
sounds great to me, right?
But like, yeah, I was growingup in a small town in the
Midwest in the 1990s and it wasa very small, very insular, very
white town and I had movedthere from a place that was very
diverse.
And I moved there and I waslike this feels like it was a
(16:40):
mistake.
I was like standing there inthat outfit looking around and I
was like one.
I thought where are all thekids of color?
I was so confused.
I was like I thought where areall the kids of color?
Right, so confused.
I was like why is everyone herewhite?
That seems weird to me.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Um, and I was like, oh, nobody else is dressed even
remotely like me and I was likeI don't know what I'm doing,
okay side note I think if all ofus who are play therapists get
in a room and start talkingabout our experiences of
children, we will all say wewere at children.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
For one way or another.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, so I think all of us there can go and say like
hello present.
Yes, shared experience, sharedexperience, shared experience.
But I think the conversation isricher in regards to one, as a
therapist, when we allowourselves to be comfortable in
our own skin, in our own lifeexperiences and we use it to
(17:40):
connect with clients.
Because to me, that experiencethat you share with your client
was you follow through yourmodel.
You ask your world is importantto me.
Let me go go in versus yeah,your world is not important to
me.
I'm going to put it aside.
Yeah, that's completelydifferent.
And, as a supervisor, saying,like, how can I help you?
(18:01):
Just be outside the comfortablesetting so that we can expand
whatever you are ready tointegrate?
Yeah, because it's also youdeveloping your style, not mine,
your style for the clients thatyou're serving.
So in all of this right, we'retalking about the richness of
live experience, our authenticselves and honoring that.
(18:23):
All of us are completelydifferent and therefore our
gifts through expression,through showing up, are going to
be completely different, andthe self-disclosure and the
importance of in regards tomaking those connections.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yep, and my kids about.
I can't remember when I starteddoing this exactly, but with my
kids, who I shareneurodivergences with, I tell
them.
I still remember the first timethat I told a child that I am
(18:55):
autistic and her face was likethis yeah, she just stared at me
with this moment of like whoa.
And then she said you nevertold me that before.
(19:17):
We'd worked together quite along time.
And I said, oh babe, I didn'tknow before.
I only just more recently foundout, not that long after you
did.
And she was like, just like jawdropped.
And then we had this incredibleyear together, together,
(19:44):
working on.
What is that?
What does it mean for me?
What do I need to know about mybrain myself, my nervous system
, like?
What do I need to know to feelmore comfortable just being me
(20:05):
in the world?
And it was really beautiful tohave this parallel process.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Right With this child , who's a very beloved child to
me, and we were able to havethese moments of like oh, yeah,
you think like that too.
That's yeah, that's interesting.
I think like that all the time,you know, and for her I could
say things like yeah, when I wasyour age, that's exactly how I
(20:35):
felt about that and that wasreally interesting to her and I
think it gave her a lot ofpermission to explore her own
self.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah Well, I think the idea that you brought up
before about like elders right.
Like I know for myself, growingup I did not have examples of
other of successful adults who Ifelt like had lived in my shoes
before right Like.
I'd done what I was doing, orstruggling with what I was
struggling with, or saw theworld the way that I saw it.
(21:09):
It was very alone, right, Like,and then it was.
We went through a generation of.
It was all internalized and itmust be me, I'm, I'm the weird
one, it's just me.
Nobody else is doing this,Nobody else is struggling in
this way.
And so for for therapists to beable to one be a model of like
you're not alone One.
(21:29):
I work with others who right,Like that was our first step of
like.
I work with lots of kids whocome into these things.
And now we've been able to takethe next step of like, oh, and
also I've worked with adults whohave lived like this.
I have my own lived experienceand I get to show you that life
continues, can be great, can you, can thrive living the way that
(21:52):
you're living, because I thinkthe other thing is, like you
know, early days with, with theterms autistic and
neurodivergence and differentand othering, was like, oh, and
your life is going to be hardand it's going to suck.
Yes, yes, right, and so beingable to be like, uh, no,
(22:13):
actually you're going to thriveand life is going to be magical
and fun for you.
And yes, there are going to behiccups and hard spots and,
based on social, politicalthings, life is a little bit
harder, but that doesn't meanthat your life can't be what you
want it to be.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yes, that's exactly.
Yeah, go ahead, lillian.
I was going to say like, well,think about it.
We went from not talking aboutit and thinking that I think
we'd learn in the training withRobert, grant and Marshall that
we went from your life is overor this is a sign of weakness,
there's something wrong with you, to now we're saying like, oh,
(22:50):
this is a neurobiological, likewe can go and address it.
I just went to a store here inColorado those natural stores
and I found three differentmagazines talking about
neurodivergence.
I got them all because I waslike this is the first time that
I can walk into a store and seethis.
I need to have this in myoffice.
(23:11):
So how can we normalize that?
We have come a long way.
There's still so many thingsthat we have to do because we're
still misunderstood at work.
We're still misunderstood withcolleagues.
We went from you're weird toyou're rude.
Totally, at least that's theshirt I'm gonna be wearing.
(23:34):
I'm not rude, but it's atension that is made of me.
Oh my gosh.
But, um, like, we have come along way and we still have so
much to learn.
And what we do now is that themore that we normalize, humanize
and make those connections, themore the clients thrive.
(23:56):
Yes, that template that theydid not have before.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yes and I'll say you know to add another layer into
it.
Know to add another layer intoit.
Our colleagues can also thenthink about their own
experiences.
So I I think the first thingthat I sort of like came out
about at work was ADHD, becauseI was diagnosed with ADHD in I
(24:23):
think it was 2015.
And prior to that point I hadno idea that I had ADHD.
I thought I just had massive,massive anxiety that stopped me
from doing anything ever, whichI do.
But like it wasn't, it wasmostly the ADHD.
I just started telling peopleabout it because I was like I
(24:52):
don't know why I feel like Ican't say this when it is
glaringly obvious to me thatthere are other people at the
agency who were also strugglingwith similar things.
And I just started tellingpeople and it was real.
Since I started doing that, I'vehad so many experiences of
(25:12):
people saying to me you know, Ialways kind of thought that
about myself, but I never reallylike explored it or let myself
go there.
And then they would ask whathas it been like for you?
And then they would ask whathas it been like for you?
And I tell people, oftenrealizing that I had ADHD and
(25:47):
deciding to take meds, for itwas, for me, one of the best
experiences I made of my adultlife, because it also decreased
that anxiety by like 80%, whichis like incredible.
(26:08):
It's life changing.
Yeah, it's life changing.
The greater systemic problemsare always going to impact
agencies like ours.
Yeah Right, like they can't not.
And you know, I've tried to bevery open with people because
I'm like also, you know,speaking about that
representation piece, peoplewith ADHD can also be highly
(26:30):
successful.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
And this is not a common perception.
Still, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I don't know.
Yeah, and this is not a commonperception.
Still, yeah, I don't know.
I have to tell you, heather, uh, when I went to get assessed,
the psychologist told me butyou're high functioning.
What would you want to medicate, which is still.
We still have a lot ofcolleagues who are very ignorant
to this.
and then we have the medicalfield.
(26:56):
That they just still.
There's a lot of gaps in it.
In my case, if you you know, ifyou met me to a personal level
I function like there's no other.
I get things, I can bemultitasking, I will get all the
tasks completed.
I also have anxiety, but in mycase, my medical team like was
(27:20):
refusing to give me medicationfor it because they function,
yeah, and I think that's a lotof people's experience.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I was very lucky at the person I was seeing a psych
nurse practitioner who alwayshad good experiences with psych
nurse practitioners shout out tothem.
But I was seeing someone whotruly wanted to know me and
(27:48):
picked up things about me that Ididn't even pick up about
myself because when we weretogether, didn't even pick up
about myself, because when wewere together she was so present
with me, yeah, and she clockedit and brought it up to me and I
said what she said we're goingto do this adult ADHD checklist
(28:11):
and see how it goes Check, check, check, check, check, check,
check, check, check all the waydown.
Yeah, right, and that wasbecause I had a practitioner who
wanted to understand who I wasas a whole person.
Yeah, who I was as a wholeperson.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, I think it's so important because when we're
one adults, right, and I'm goingto make some generalizations,
so come at me in the comments ifyou want to we are women, right
, so we were raised to maskanyway.
Yes, we didn't get toacknowledge or see the signs and
(28:46):
symptoms.
Two, in this field still, weare working in systems that
continue to perpetuate this.
You can't be because you'refunctioning or you can't be
because you're successful.
And why is it uncomfortable forus in our own profession to
talk about our ownneurodivergence or our needs?
(29:08):
Or why is it still like what doyou mean?
You need an accommodation?
Why do you have to use termslike neuro spicy or wear like a
badge and it's like, oh, in ourown field and in our own
organizations, systems that wehave to be working within.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Still a thing, this is.
There's still stigma aroundthis.
There is.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's not just where we work, is the associations and
micromanagers.
Yeah, there's still amisconception.
And then, based on gender,they'll have preference on how
they treat males versus how theytreat females.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, Yep, yeah, I think it's really like it's been
so interesting to be totallyopen at work about all of my
various neurodivergences.
You know I also like autism,adhd, definitely just realized
(30:04):
in like the last six months thatI'm heavy PDA and I had no idea
.
I had no idea.
Do you want to know a reallyfunny story about that?
The whole time that since Ifirst found out about PDA,
there's been something in mybrain that's like I don't need
to know about that, I don't needto read about that.
That's not about me, I don'tneed to read about that.
Why would I do that?
(30:24):
Why would I research that wewere not right on the nose?
Yes, because it's so on.
It's ridiculous, it's so on thenose.
But, like, since I've beenreally you know, I also have
synesthesia.
I have serious sensory issues.
I literally don't drive becauseof how bad my sensory issues
are and I just got tired ofpeople saying, oh, you don't
(30:48):
drive and then feeling like Icouldn't just explain what it
was which was like, yeah, I havesuch severe sensory processing
disorder that every single skillyou need to be able to
coordinate to be able to driveI'm terrible at all of them
separately and then putting themtogether is actually worse.
(31:09):
You know, I just got tired offeeling like I needed to like
conceal these things aboutmyself and I was like it doesn't
matter.
And if you, if you thinkthere's something unprofessional
about me, or if you, if thismakes you uncomfortable, like
(31:32):
that's about you, dude, likelike you would need to figure
that out for yourself yeah,that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
When you were talking about the driving, I did um,
heard about it like I.
I you didn't share that with me, like it was shared with me,
but I always remember the movieClueless.
Do you guys remember the movieClueless?
This is an old movie.
When she says why would I haveto learn to park?
Or everywhere I go, they havevalet parking.
(31:58):
And I laugh at that time.
So when you were sharing thisstory, Heather, I was like why,
when we can get Uber or anyother other, excuse me exactly.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I don't have to and I've made the decision for
myself because I know myselfbest.
It's not actually safe, yeah,for me to do that and there's
none of there's many people inmy life who tried to influence
that and I was like, no, I'm theone who knows me.
I feel like I would be reallydangerous.
I know myself best.
(32:32):
I failed drivers I had fourtimes, y'all Four times.
That's not a coincidence,that's not just a fluke, that's
like uh-oh.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You failed once, though I mean I had a couple
more to go with you, but I feelonce too, yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It's that's the important piece.
Right is like allowing allowingindividuals to say no, for me,
this is a boundary, or for me,this is a necessity.
For me, this is the choice Ihave made and I'm working on how
to accommodate the rest of lifearound my own needs, and then
extending that to clients andextending that to supervisees,
(33:16):
consultees, right Of like, no,no, maybe this is how it works
for me, but if there's a betterway for this to work for you,
let's explore that, yes, and Itell that to my supervisees all
the time.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
You said you know, I say, like these are the ways
that I have found to do thesethings and they may not actually
be the best ways for you andyou don't have to do anything
like I do.
I mean, that's what I learnedfrom you know, lisa Dion, who is
my greatest mentor in playtherapy and in life, I think,
(33:51):
because the first time that Iheard Lisa say I don't want you
to do it like me, I want you todo it like you.
Like what a breath of justpermission.
Right, oh, I get to do it likeme and I don't have to try to be
(34:13):
like anybody else because I'mnot like anybody else.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Right and thank goodness for that.
Yeah, what a gift you are andwhat a loss it would be.
Right and and yeah, givenpermission to not be inside the
box that someone else hasdecided we were all supposed to
be hundreds of years ago and wehave not reevaluated this, right
(34:38):
, what a gift it is to be ableto say like, no, no, here's,
here's the basis, here's thetheory, here are the strong,
hard, fast rules and then makeit your own, make it make sense
for you, otherwise it's notauthentic, right?
If you can't integrate it anddo it right for you, then it's
inauthentic.
Kids and clients know they canpick that up a mile away.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Instantly.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And what good are you ?
What good are you then ifyou're fake?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
for your client.
Yeah, I mean it's, and it'sinteresting because I think
sometimes people don't evenpeople in the field don't
understand that like, if I'm notbeing myself and I'm not being
the most congruent version of methat I can be, then I'm not
(35:30):
actually in the room with thechild.
I'm not actually there, right?
And depending on how much Ifeel like I have to mask or
obfuscate or be professionallike let's even get into who
decided what professionalismmeans anyway, which is a rant
that I frequently go on then I'mnot actually there with the
(35:56):
child and depending on thedegree of masking or the degree
of dissociation or whatever itis that we feel like we have to
be doing, the child mayexperience us as literally not
present, and to me that's notacceptable.
No, it's dangerous.
The level of work that I chooseto do, that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I'm looking at the time, I cannot believe that
this is one so fast.
Heather, thank you.
Thank you for sharing your lifeexperience, your aha moments
not only professional butpersonal and for us to get to
know you a little bit morepersonal in this lovely
conversation.
So thank you for being a giftto our community, Thank you.
(36:43):
Thank you for saying yes to thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I have loved this experience.
I would do this all the timewith you too.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
We'll have you come back so we can talk about who
decided what professional is.
Fantastic conversation.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Love to.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Until next time.
Thank you, Heather Bye.
Welcome back listeners to another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, maria, andI'm here joined with my lovely
co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That's me, liliana Valen, and we're here with a
special guest Heather.
For anyone who does not knowabout you, how would you like to
introduce yourself to ouraudience?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So I am Heather Fairley-Denbrough.
I am a licensed clinical socialworker and registered play
therapist supervisor.
I'm also a super proudcertified synergetic play
therapy supervisor and I haveworked for 16 years in community
mental health in Vancouver,washington, where I see a
(01:20):
caseload of children quite asmall caseload at this point and
then I also in my specialtyareas and then I also supervise
five other therapists who areeither pursuing their RPT or
exploring their interest in playtherapy and sand therapy, in
play therapy and sand therapy.
And I have a consultationpractice called Playful
Integration where I do anythingthat I'm interested in actually.
(01:49):
So I do trainings and I dowebinars and I do really special
tender consultation groups forplay therapists.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Nice, so that's a lot of experience.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So, heather, what are we talking about today?
Well, as I was thinking about,what would I want to talk about
in this podcast, something thathas been really on the forefront
of my mind lately because I'mgetting to know myself a little
better and then I'm making thesereally different kinds of
connections with my clients isthe impact of lived experience
(02:30):
and self-disclosure in playtherapy and in therapy overall,
right and when with parents.
I'm in this really interestingprocess of so I've known that I
was autistic for quite some timemaybe, like I mean, when I say
quite some time, not quite sometime as in like my whole life,
but quite some time for me, asin like three years.
(02:51):
It was really interesting thatI didn't conceptualize that
about myself before then.
Really interesting that Ididn't conceptualize that about
myself before then.
But then lately I've beennoticing how my self-knowledge
is coming into the room in adifferent way and I'm
understanding childrendifferently.
(03:12):
I'm vibing with childrendifferently.
I feel more like myself in theroom than I've really ever felt,
and that's really interestingbecause I've been doing this
such a long time and that's whyI thought it might be something
interesting to talk about isbecause it's also a relatively
new experience for me.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I love that.
I think the termself-disclosure right.
I think anyone listening rightnow is like oh my God, no, yeah,
let's go there, we had itintegrated into ourselves in our
programming.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yes, More importantly , because I love when you say,
as I'm getting to know myself,and we're talking about life
experience, I think that is thething that they don't tell us
when we're in school, right,which is we're giving you this
foundation in regards to theorythat you're going to have to
throw out once you're out therepracticing.
And then the difference betweena new therapist and a seasonal
(04:11):
therapist is the life experiencethat you're talking about,
which is we can bring thattheory and make sense of it from
treatment plan for discussionwith other clinicians, but it's
the life experience that makesthat connection with the client.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yes, yes, I totally agree with that, you know and I.
It's interesting because overthe years I've discovered
different pieces of myselfthrough the work with the
children that I've been seeing.
I didn't even know that I hadsensory issues until there was a
(04:50):
day about, I think, about 10 or12 years ago, maybe even a
little more, where I was readingan OT report, a really
well-written OT report Thank you, ot who I can't remember the
name of, and it said somethingin.
There was when people werefirst starting to talk about
interoceptive differences, and Iread that paragraph and I just
(05:12):
thought, oh my God, that's mywhole life and I didn't know
until then that that's what Iwas experiencing yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I love that and I think that's part of we've
talked um before about right,like what we're needing to see,
sometimes shows up in ourplayroom, like right sometimes
in our playroom or our clinicalroom in general, sometimes what
shows up as a mirror forourselves as well, and it sounds
like that's kind of what theexperience that you had it was
(05:42):
like.
Oh, me too.
I have some wording around whatthis experience is, and I'm not
the only one.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yes, and I think that's a part of it.
It's like when I was thinkingabout what I wanted to talk
about here, I was like I justwant everybody to know that like
you can be open to the mirror.
Yeah, because sometimes it'sreally hard right, especially
with the training that we'regiven, with the way things like
this are talked about in gradschool.
(06:13):
You're like a bad person if youcare too much about your
clients and like all of that.
Right, I think that we're taught, and I think we're taught in
this, this particular societyoverall, to not allow ourselves
to reflect, and so the mirrorcomes and we're like we're not
(06:35):
looking at it right because itfeels so uncomfortable and I
really I feel like a big part ofmy practice as a supervisor is
helping my supervisees getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable and comfortablewith deep ambiguity and
liminality.
Yeah, so that we can look formirror.
(06:58):
We can be in the moment and seethe mirror.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
But even when, right, cause I was like, ooh, let me
be a devil's advocate here.
Yeah, cause, even when, um, andI am so comfortable, I just
realized that I'm like in mylike, my head is like so into
listening to you and leaninginto you.
But, yes, and what if you'renot ready?
Because I love when you started, which is I did not see myself
(07:24):
there and what happens for allof us who are therapists is that
, one, we're not givenpermission to be human in the
room.
Yes, yes, which I think is alarge part of what you're
discussing.
And then, two, when I'm notready to see, and even when I'm
ready to see, I'm not ready toprocess and therefore I cannot
integrate.
(07:45):
It's not that I'm comfortable oruncomfortable, it's that,
developmentally, everyone goesat a different pace in order to
integrate these pieces.
So we have to be careful alsonot only as therapists, but as
supervisors.
Which is, who's in the room?
Developmentally, where are they?
Yeah, so that I don't projectand become part of the system
(08:06):
that told me you cannot be humanin the room.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I love that.
Yeah, so since you've startedkind of integrating this into
your own practice and in yoursupervision, what has shifted
for you with your own clinicalwork or in your supervision?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
work.
I know this thing about myselfand I'm getting more and more
comfortable talking about it.
It's becoming more like anintegrated part of how I view
the world, right, like I'mallowing it to.
(08:46):
I mean, it's always been that,but I'm allowing it to really
fully become that I feel thatthe connections that I'm making
with the autistic andneurodivergent kids that I see
are just, it's so interesting,like there's so many words that
(09:10):
come to my mind, but the firstone that kind of popped into my
head was like comfortable,they're so full of ease.
Now there's there's this senseof ease.
Right, we're just here together, doing what we do, doing what
we want to do and being how wewant to be, and it's really
(09:36):
lovely to see.
I had an experience not thatlong ago where a young client
told me, slash begged me towatch K-pop, demon Hunters, okay
.
So I will tell you I do not as aas a person, I don't watch a
lot of children's media.
(09:57):
I kind of keep the childlikepart of myself for work and I
engage in a lot of other kindsof media at home, right, so I
don't often watch things unlessI'm like, yeah, that'd probably
be pretty good for play therapyand I didn't really plan on
(10:20):
watching that, but my kid wasjust like, heather, you have to
watch it.
And I was like, okay, all right.
And then I forgot about it fora week and I came back and kid
was like, did you watch it?
And I was like I kind of didn'tand they were like I'm so
disappointed, yeah, and I waslike, oh, thank you for telling
(10:40):
me that's how you feel about it.
And I took out my phone and Iput it in my calendar, yeah, for
the next weekend.
And I was like, here, here itis, I'm gonna do it.
And I watched it and I was like, oh, wow, this is so beautiful.
And I was thinking about likebeing 10 years old and getting
(11:02):
to watch that and have themessage be, it's actually best
for everyone if you get to beexactly who you are.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Ding, ding, ding, ding ding and I was like this is
beautiful, right, it'sbeautiful, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And then you know, when I went back and I talked
with that kid and I was like Iactually had a really beautiful
emotional experience watchingthat.
I'm so glad you told me towatch it and we had this
incredible conversation about it.
And I think one of the thingsthat I think is so important
(11:43):
about being able to be open tomaking those kinds of lived
experience connections with kidsis that, like that child now
understands that there are alsoadults who have experienced the
things that that child hasexperienced.
(12:05):
And here I am I'm a cool playtherapist.
People, people don't bother me,I have a happy life, I'm okay,
even with all of the things thatI've experienced as an autistic
and very, very odd child.
I will say very odd child, youknow, I've I've figured my life
(12:30):
out and it's really good and Ithink it's it's like that.
That concept of elders, right,like even neurodivergent
children, need representation ofneurodivergent people who are
thriving and who deeply careabout them.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I love that.
I mean, we could talk for hourson K-pop and I won't, I won't,
we'll do another time.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
But Nadea sounded like that when she asked me to
watch it too.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I did so.
The kiddo inviting you that wasme inviting Liliana and Liliana
was like this is not my jam,Maria, and I was like I know, I
know, but just give me like twohours of your time and if you
absolutely hate, right like whatwe do with clients.
If you absolutely hate, we'llnever do this again.
What you know.
(13:20):
This could be easily writtenoff as like therapeutic rapport.
This, what happened, was somuch more, yes, so much more.
Right.
You invested in thisrelationship with this kiddo.
You learned now a sharedlanguage, right, because you can
talk about having roomy momentsor Zoe moments or Mira moments,
(13:40):
and that is a shared language.
Yes, right, and and again, this,this idea of shared experiences
, is so powerful.
It's therapeutic rapport getsthrown under the bus, right,
it's just like you know, be asafe person for your clients and
have a connection, and we cando so much more than just be
(14:01):
like oh, you like that, me too,but like, oh, you like that.
This is what that means for mein my life.
Tell me what that means for youin your life, right, I think
it's just so wonderful andbeautiful, and I hope more
clinicians are open to that,because it can be.
(14:21):
I mean, we've got a lot on ourplates, right.
We've got our caseloads and ourschedules and our documentation
and all the things, all thethings.
And when we can have moments ofoh, I'm going to do this so
that I can have a sharedexperience, with my caseload,
with my clients, with myselfeven.
I think that that's justbeautiful.
(14:42):
I think that that yeah, likegold stars all the way around,
and not just because I thinkthat movie is magical and has so
much healing potential.
And, good Lord, I would bedifferent adults if we had
movies like that in our ownchildhood.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
That's exactly what I thought when I was watching it.
Yeah, like that's why I cried.
I was like thinking about beingme at 10 years old and I was
the most awkward, weird, likelike looking at it now I'm like
I would totally be friends withthat kid, but at the time, other
(15:19):
kids were like you're obsessedwith cryptids and the X-Files.
Excuse me, who wasn't Right.
You dress like a candy cane,like my first like day of school
at my new middle school, and Ithought I was doing like the
greatest thing in the world.
I was like, yes, this outfit isit?
Okay, it was October.
(15:40):
Also, I wore this red skirt,like this really long red skirt
that my mom had gotten me at thethrift store, and I wore
literally this like candy caneprint mock turtleneck with like
a big bow on my head, and then Ihad this was like fifth grade,
and then I had these crazy redshoes and that is how I walked
(16:04):
into a school of children who,at the time, were wearing
flannels and guest jeans.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I was like where were you?
Because 70s Mexico, that soundslike very familiar to me of
children who at the time werewearing flannels and guest jeans
.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I was like where were you?
Because 70s Mexico, that soundslike very familiar to me, that
sounds great to me, right?
But like, yeah, I was growingup in a small town in the
Midwest in the 1990s and it wasa very small, very insular, very
white town and I had movedthere from a place that was very
diverse.
And I moved there and I waslike this feels like it was a
(16:40):
mistake.
I was like standing there inthat outfit looking around and I
was like one.
I thought where are all thekids of color?
I was so confused.
I was like I thought where areall the kids of color?
Right, so confused.
I was like why is everyone herewhite?
That seems weird to me.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Um, and I was like, oh, nobody else is dressed even
remotely like me and I was likeI don't know what I'm doing,
okay side note I think if all ofus who are play therapists get
in a room and start talkingabout our experiences of
children, we will all say wewere at children.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
For one way or another.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, so I think all of us there can go and say like
hello present.
Yes, shared experience, sharedexperience, shared experience.
But I think the conversation isricher in regards to one, as a
therapist, when we allowourselves to be comfortable in
our own skin, in our own lifeexperiences and we use it to
(17:40):
connect with clients.
Because to me, that experiencethat you share with your client
was you follow through yourmodel.
You ask your world is importantto me.
Let me go go in versus yeah,your world is not important to
me.
I'm going to put it aside.
Yeah, that's completelydifferent.
And, as a supervisor, saying,like, how can I help you?
(18:01):
Just be outside the comfortablesetting so that we can expand
whatever you are ready tointegrate?
Yeah, because it's also youdeveloping your style, not mine,
your style for the clients thatyou're serving.
So in all of this right, we'retalking about the richness of
live experience, our authenticselves and honoring that.
(18:23):
All of us are completelydifferent and therefore our
gifts through expression,through showing up, are going to
be completely different, andthe self-disclosure and the
importance of in regards tomaking those connections.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yep, and my kids about.
I can't remember when I starteddoing this exactly, but with my
kids, who I shareneurodivergences with, I tell
them.
I still remember the first timethat I told a child that I am
(18:55):
autistic and her face was likethis yeah, she just stared at me
with this moment of like whoa.
And then she said you nevertold me that before.
(19:17):
We'd worked together quite along time.
And I said, oh babe, I didn'tknow before.
I only just more recently foundout, not that long after you
did.
And she was like, just like jawdropped.
And then we had this incredibleyear together, together,
(19:44):
working on.
What is that?
What does it mean for me?
What do I need to know about mybrain myself, my nervous system
, like?
What do I need to know to feelmore comfortable just being me
(20:05):
in the world?
And it was really beautiful tohave this parallel process.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Right With this child , who's a very beloved child to
me, and we were able to havethese moments of like oh, yeah,
you think like that too.
That's yeah, that's interesting.
I think like that all the time,you know, and for her I could
say things like yeah, when I wasyour age, that's exactly how I
(20:35):
felt about that and that wasreally interesting to her and I
think it gave her a lot ofpermission to explore her own
self.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah Well, I think the idea that you brought up
before about like elders right.
Like I know for myself, growingup I did not have examples of
other of successful adults who Ifelt like had lived in my shoes
before right Like.
I'd done what I was doing, orstruggling with what I was
struggling with, or saw theworld the way that I saw it.
(21:09):
It was very alone, right, Like,and then it was.
We went through a generation of.
It was all internalized and itmust be me, I'm, I'm the weird
one, it's just me.
Nobody else is doing this,Nobody else is struggling in
this way.
And so for for therapists to beable to one be a model of like
you're not alone One.
(21:29):
I work with others who right,Like that was our first step of
like.
I work with lots of kids whocome into these things.
And now we've been able to takethe next step of like, oh, and
also I've worked with adults whohave lived like this.
I have my own lived experienceand I get to show you that life
continues, can be great, can you, can thrive living the way that
(21:52):
you're living, because I thinkthe other thing is, like you
know, early days with, with theterms autistic and
neurodivergence and differentand othering, was like, oh, and
your life is going to be hardand it's going to suck.
Yes, yes, right, and so beingable to be like, uh, no,
(22:13):
actually you're going to thriveand life is going to be magical
and fun for you.
And yes, there are going to behiccups and hard spots and,
based on social, politicalthings, life is a little bit
harder, but that doesn't meanthat your life can't be what you
want it to be.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yes, that's exactly.
Yeah, go ahead, lillian.
I was going to say like, well,think about it.
We went from not talking aboutit and thinking that I think
we'd learn in the training withRobert, grant and Marshall that
we went from your life is overor this is a sign of weakness,
there's something wrong with you, to now we're saying like, oh,
(22:50):
this is a neurobiological, likewe can go and address it.
I just went to a store here inColorado those natural stores
and I found three differentmagazines talking about
neurodivergence.
I got them all because I waslike this is the first time that
I can walk into a store and seethis.
I need to have this in myoffice.
(23:11):
So how can we normalize that?
We have come a long way.
There's still so many thingsthat we have to do because we're
still misunderstood at work.
We're still misunderstood withcolleagues.
We went from you're weird toyou're rude.
Totally, at least that's theshirt I'm gonna be wearing.
(23:34):
I'm not rude, but it's atension that is made of me.
Oh my gosh.
But, um, like, we have come along way and we still have so
much to learn.
And what we do now is that themore that we normalize, humanize
and make those connections, themore the clients thrive.
(23:56):
Yes, that template that theydid not have before.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yes and I'll say you know to add another layer into
it.
Know to add another layer intoit.
Our colleagues can also thenthink about their own
experiences.
So I I think the first thingthat I sort of like came out
about at work was ADHD, becauseI was diagnosed with ADHD in I
(24:23):
think it was 2015.
And prior to that point I hadno idea that I had ADHD.
I thought I just had massive,massive anxiety that stopped me
from doing anything ever, whichI do.
But like it wasn't, it wasmostly the ADHD.
I just started telling peopleabout it because I was like I
(24:52):
don't know why I feel like Ican't say this when it is
glaringly obvious to me thatthere are other people at the
agency who were also strugglingwith similar things.
And I just started tellingpeople and it was real.
Since I started doing that, I'vehad so many experiences of
(25:12):
people saying to me you know, Ialways kind of thought that
about myself, but I never reallylike explored it or let myself
go there.
And then they would ask whathas it been like for you?
And then they would ask whathas it been like for you?
And I tell people, oftenrealizing that I had ADHD and
(25:47):
deciding to take meds, for itwas, for me, one of the best
experiences I made of my adultlife, because it also decreased
that anxiety by like 80%, whichis like incredible.
(26:08):
It's life changing.
Yeah, it's life changing.
The greater systemic problemsare always going to impact
agencies like ours.
Yeah Right, like they can't not.
And you know, I've tried to bevery open with people because
I'm like also, you know,speaking about that
representation piece, peoplewith ADHD can also be highly
(26:30):
successful.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
And this is not a common perception.
Still, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I don't know.
Yeah, and this is not a commonperception.
Still, yeah, I don't know.
I have to tell you, heather, uh, when I went to get assessed,
the psychologist told me butyou're high functioning.
What would you want to medicate, which is still.
We still have a lot ofcolleagues who are very ignorant
to this.
and then we have the medicalfield.
(26:56):
That they just still.
There's a lot of gaps in it.
In my case, if you you know, ifyou met me to a personal level
I function like there's no other.
I get things, I can bemultitasking, I will get all the
tasks completed.
I also have anxiety, but in mycase, my medical team like was
(27:20):
refusing to give me medicationfor it because they function,
yeah, and I think that's a lotof people's experience.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I was very lucky at the person I was seeing a psych
nurse practitioner who alwayshad good experiences with psych
nurse practitioners shout out tothem.
But I was seeing someone whotruly wanted to know me and
(27:48):
picked up things about me that Ididn't even pick up about
myself because when we weretogether, didn't even pick up
about myself, because when wewere together she was so present
with me, yeah, and she clockedit and brought it up to me and I
said what she said we're goingto do this adult ADHD checklist
(28:11):
and see how it goes Check, check, check, check, check, check,
check, check, check all the waydown.
Yeah, right, and that wasbecause I had a practitioner who
wanted to understand who I wasas a whole person.
Yeah, who I was as a wholeperson.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, I think it's so important because when we're
one adults, right, and I'm goingto make some generalizations,
so come at me in the comments ifyou want to we are women, right
, so we were raised to maskanyway.
Yes, we didn't get toacknowledge or see the signs and
(28:46):
symptoms.
Two, in this field still, weare working in systems that
continue to perpetuate this.
You can't be because you'refunctioning or you can't be
because you're successful.
And why is it uncomfortable forus in our own profession to
talk about our ownneurodivergence or our needs?
(29:08):
Or why is it still like what doyou mean?
You need an accommodation?
Why do you have to use termslike neuro spicy or wear like a
badge and it's like, oh, in ourown field and in our own
organizations, systems that wehave to be working within.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Still a thing, this is.
There's still stigma aroundthis.
There is.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's not just where we work, is the associations and
micromanagers.
Yeah, there's still amisconception.
And then, based on gender,they'll have preference on how
they treat males versus how theytreat females.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, Yep, yeah, I think it's really like it's been
so interesting to be totallyopen at work about all of my
various neurodivergences.
You know I also like autism,adhd, definitely just realized
(30:04):
in like the last six months thatI'm heavy PDA and I had no idea
.
I had no idea.
Do you want to know a reallyfunny story about that?
The whole time that since Ifirst found out about PDA,
there's been something in mybrain that's like I don't need
to know about that, I don't needto read about that.
That's not about me, I don'tneed to read about that.
Why would I do that?
(30:24):
Why would I research that wewere not right on the nose?
Yes, because it's so on.
It's ridiculous, it's so on thenose.
But, like, since I've beenreally you know, I also have
synesthesia.
I have serious sensory issues.
I literally don't drive becauseof how bad my sensory issues
are and I just got tired ofpeople saying, oh, you don't
(30:48):
drive and then feeling like Icouldn't just explain what it
was which was like, yeah, I havesuch severe sensory processing
disorder that every single skillyou need to be able to
coordinate to be able to driveI'm terrible at all of them
separately and then putting themtogether is actually worse.
(31:09):
You know, I just got tired offeeling like I needed to like
conceal these things aboutmyself and I was like it doesn't
matter.
And if you, if you thinkthere's something unprofessional
about me, or if you, if thismakes you uncomfortable, like
(31:32):
that's about you, dude, likelike you would need to figure
that out for yourself yeah,that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
When you were talking about the driving, I did um,
heard about it like I.
I you didn't share that with me, like it was shared with me,
but I always remember the movieClueless.
Do you guys remember the movieClueless?
This is an old movie.
When she says why would I haveto learn to park?
Or everywhere I go, they havevalet parking.
(31:58):
And I laugh at that time.
So when you were sharing thisstory, Heather, I was like why,
when we can get Uber or anyother other, excuse me exactly.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I don't have to and I've made the decision for
myself because I know myselfbest.
It's not actually safe, yeah,for me to do that and there's
none of there's many people inmy life who tried to influence
that and I was like, no, I'm theone who knows me.
I feel like I would be reallydangerous.
I know myself best.
(32:32):
I failed drivers I had fourtimes, y'all Four times.
That's not a coincidence,that's not just a fluke, that's
like uh-oh.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You failed once, though I mean I had a couple
more to go with you, but I feelonce too, yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It's that's the important piece.
Right is like allowing allowingindividuals to say no, for me,
this is a boundary, or for me,this is a necessity.
For me, this is the choice Ihave made and I'm working on how
to accommodate the rest of lifearound my own needs, and then
extending that to clients andextending that to supervisees,
(33:16):
consultees, right Of like, no,no, maybe this is how it works
for me, but if there's a betterway for this to work for you,
let's explore that, yes, and Itell that to my supervisees all
the time.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
You said you know, I say, like these are the ways
that I have found to do thesethings and they may not actually
be the best ways for you andyou don't have to do anything
like I do.
I mean, that's what I learnedfrom you know, lisa Dion, who is
my greatest mentor in playtherapy and in life, I think,
(33:51):
because the first time that Iheard Lisa say I don't want you
to do it like me, I want you todo it like you.
Like what a breath of justpermission.
Right, oh, I get to do it likeme and I don't have to try to be
(34:13):
like anybody else because I'mnot like anybody else.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Right and thank goodness for that.
Yeah, what a gift you are andwhat a loss it would be.
Right and and yeah, givenpermission to not be inside the
box that someone else hasdecided we were all supposed to
be hundreds of years ago and wehave not reevaluated this, right
(34:38):
, what a gift it is to be ableto say like, no, no, here's,
here's the basis, here's thetheory, here are the strong,
hard, fast rules and then makeit your own, make it make sense
for you, otherwise it's notauthentic, right?
If you can't integrate it anddo it right for you, then it's
inauthentic.
Kids and clients know they canpick that up a mile away.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Instantly.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And what good are you ?
What good are you then ifyou're fake?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
for your client.
Yeah, I mean it's, and it'sinteresting because I think
sometimes people don't evenpeople in the field don't
understand that like, if I'm notbeing myself and I'm not being
the most congruent version of methat I can be, then I'm not
(35:30):
actually in the room with thechild.
I'm not actually there, right?
And depending on how much Ifeel like I have to mask or
obfuscate or be professionallike let's even get into who
decided what professionalismmeans anyway, which is a rant
that I frequently go on then I'mnot actually there with the
(35:56):
child and depending on thedegree of masking or the degree
of dissociation or whatever itis that we feel like we have to
be doing, the child mayexperience us as literally not
present, and to me that's notacceptable.
No, it's dangerous.
The level of work that I chooseto do, that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I'm looking at the time, I cannot believe that
this is one so fast.
Heather, thank you.
Thank you for sharing your lifeexperience, your aha moments
not only professional butpersonal and for us to get to
know you a little bit morepersonal in this lovely
conversation.
So thank you for being a giftto our community, Thank you.
(36:43):
Thank you for saying yes to thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I have loved this experience.
I would do this all the timewith you too.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
We'll have you come back so we can talk about who
decided what professional is.
Fantastic conversation.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Love to.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Until next time.
Thank you, Heather Bye.
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