July 24, 2025 • 39 mins
Few therapists willingly choose to work with high-conflict divorce cases. The fear of subpoenas, licensing board complaints, and getting caught in legal crossfire keeps many clinicians from helping the families who may need them most. But Berenice Leon Fonseca sees things differently.
Drawing from her unique background in law and family therapy, Berenice illuminates the path for therapists who want to serve families navigating the painful journey of separation but feel intimidated by court involvement. She challenges the profession's tendency toward fear-based avoidance, asking a powerful question: "When we hear somebody impacted by systems and say no because we're afraid of what might happen to us, doesn't that contradict why we entered this field?"
Throughout our conversation, Berenice demystifies court-involved therapy by offering practical frameworks, from establishing clear communication protocols with both parents to collaborating effectively with attorneys. She emphasizes that understanding each professional's role in the system, therapists heal, attorneys advocate, and courts decide, creates more precise boundaries and effective interventions.
The most moving moments come when Berenice describes her approach with children caught in these conflicts. By giving them agency in the therapeutic relationship and helping parents envision what true co-parenting might look like, she creates space for healing amid legal battles. Her powerful question to warring parents, "What would it feel like for your child to be in a room with both of you, not having to please either one?" often catalyzes profound reflection.
Whether you're a therapist curious about expanding your practice, a parent navigating separation, or someone interested in the intersection of legal and mental health systems, this episode offers invaluable insights into helping families heal during their most challenging transitions.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back listeners.
So excited to have you for thisepisode of Heroes Welcome
Podcast.
I'm Marie Leclerc, your co-host.
I'm here today with my bestie.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
That's me.
I was going to say Berenice.
No, that's me, liliana, andwe're here with our special
guest.
How would you like to introduceyourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Well, thank you both for having me this morning.
My name is Berenice LeonFonseca it's a mouthful, but
this is who I am and I am achild therapist at heart.
That works more from a familysystems perspective heart, but
(00:48):
works more from a family systemsperspective.
And a twist with that is that Ialso navigate towards helping
families that are navigating thefamily separation process.
That is my niche, that is mysweet spot of working with
families that are navigatingdivorce, family separation,
court-mandated therapy all ofthose scary words that we hear
(01:10):
in our practices and ourprofession is what drives me to
do the work that I do.
All right, listeners everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Just take a deep breath.
I know she just triggered allof us, but it's so wonderful to
know that there are clinicianslike you who not only are
willing to do this work but leaninto and are really passionate
(01:41):
about doing this work Because,unfortunately, it's becoming
more and more of a request and aneed in, I would say, almost
100 of our communities.
Yeah, how did you fall intohigh conflict, because that's
something usually most of us runaway from.
Yeah, um, and you didn't runaway and in fact, you leaned in.
So how did that happen?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
yeah, yeah, I leaned in, not knowing that this really
was a need in our profession.
I do have a legal background.
I, in my undergraduate work,was pursuing a future in law,
(02:23):
and so I went the long route inschool.
I was married and traveled andthen I said, oh, I should
probably get an education.
And so I went to school a lotlater than my peers and so in my
undergrad I really lovedsociology.
I loved the knowledge of howsystems impact society, right.
(02:46):
So that really gravitatedtowards me.
And I had an emphasis incriminology which was like, oh,
there's a bigger system, right,like the judicial system and
incarceration, and so I was justreally fascinated by how
systems worked and theimplications it has on society,
communities, environments.
So with that I decided topursue law and in the interim,
(03:11):
because I was on the slow trackof my education, I got a
paralegal degree and worked as aparalegal in the judicial
system here in San Diego and didthat for many years as, again,
slow track to school, and thenrealized that I do not want to
be an attorney.
I was like, nope, this is not,you know, it was just stressful.
(03:35):
I experienced a lot of familiescoming in, stressed at the
system, the judicial systemitself, the system, the judicial
system itself, family law inparticular.
And so in that work I reallyfell in love with the stories
behind what was coming in.
And so, when I graduated with myundergrad and trying to figure
(03:56):
out what I was going to do withmy adult life, I then decided to
pursue a decided to pursue amaster's degree in marriage and
family therapy, and during thatcourse I loved working with kids
.
I love the idea of working withchildren, and so naturally, I
(04:16):
would get children that weregoing through family separation.
And because I have this legalbackground, I also had a
background in understanding thejudicial system, the language of
the court, the implications ofthe court, the stressors of the
court.
I really felt like I couldunderstand the language that the
(04:40):
parents were coming in with,and it made it easy for me to
feel like, oh, I know what anRFO is.
I know all the acronyms, right,I know a FOA.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I know.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And you know they throw all these things at you.
As a clinician who doesn't havethat background, you're like
what are they talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
It's a whole other language.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It's a whole other language.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So understanding the language made it a lot easier
for me.
So I did have that vantagepoint, but as a clinician it was
different, right as now, as aclinician, kind of on the other
side of the bench, if you will,it was.
It was a learning curve for me.
It's like, okay, wait, how do Ido this as a therapist?
(05:23):
Take off my paralegal hat andmy law hat and how do I help
these families with thetherapeutic hat?
And I think, Maria, I leaned inwith it because I knew a lot of
therapists weren't taking onthese cases and there was a tug
at my heart of like, well,somebody has to do it right, we
(05:46):
can't just leave families indespair, if you will.
And so I jumped in and I saidI'll do it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I love that I'm meeting more and more therapists
that have a differentbackground before their
counseling program, and I thinkthat's something that we didn't
used to talk about, and you'rehighlighting the benefit of it,
right, no shade for all of youwho went straight, who knew what
you wanted to do, but, come on,we got a lot of crap for not
(06:22):
having that straight road whenwe had a different background.
So kudos to you for leaning inand taking a niche that needs
our help.
So can I ask you something?
When we think about why do youthink our field specifically
play therapists when they thinkabout high conflict divorce,
(06:42):
they run away.
So what is the most like?
What is the theme?
What is the most fear that youhear about working with this
population?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I find it that it's not the population.
I find that we are afraid ofwhat's going to happen to us.
There you go.
Thank you for naming that.
Yeah, it is.
It's like when I hear highconflict, when I hear court
mandated, what I'm hearing isyou want my records, you want me
(07:13):
to testify.
Someone's going to file acomplaint to BBS?
Well, I'm in California, soours is the Board of Behavioral
Services.
Yeah, the BBS.
And so you know, my licensingboard is going to hear from
somebody.
My license is at risk.
All of these risks.
What I hear from therapists isI don't take these cases because
(07:35):
I want to protect myself, andthat's not why we came into this
field.
We are healers, we are peoplethat sit with, we want, we've
chosen.
I think this is so huge andthank you, liliana, for calling
this out I think it's so hugethat we have to remember why we
(07:57):
came into this profession,because it's not the pay, it's
not you know, it's not you know,know.
A lot of us are burnt out.
A lot of us are, um, we workreally hard and we want to be in
this position, so we come inwith this heart for people, um,
(08:18):
and when we hear somebody thatis being impacted by systems and
then we say no to them becausewe're afraid of what's going to
happen to us, that just doesn'tsit well, if we say it out loud,
right.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah Well, I think there's a lot of fear mongering,
right.
I think what we fear is blownout of proportion from what's
actual likely to happen.
Yes, right, like it's not theworst.
I mean, if you're involved inhelp in the helping field,
someone's going to have acomplaint against you at some
point in your career.
I think that we just need tonormalize that instead of fear
(08:54):
mongering, because it does.
It keeps healers and helpersout of those spaces where we're
actually really needed.
This is where we're actuallyreally needed.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah.
So for all of you who are new,the new cohort of therapists,
think about what you got fromyour instructors in your
master's program, which is don'tget grievance, don't take like
it was all this fear base of thethings that we couldn't do.
Oh yeah, they're going to takeat risk.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That means that we're willing to jump in to the fire
with them.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
With them right.
With them With them right.
It means like that, and thatthere's things that we can do in
order for us to understandwhat's our role right.
So you started with I have thisdegree prior to coming into
master's, so I learned thislanguage.
I learned what to do here andnow as a MFT thank you for being
(10:22):
among us and then like there'ssomething here and then.
How do I integrate both andhonoring the difference of both?
So what is one takeaway thatyou would like to share with our
listeners who are just starting, or you're in the season and
you avoid this population, butwhat is one nugget that you will
say take this from today.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I say that you can find support.
There's always going to be asupport system to hold you as a
clinician, and if you don't havethat readily accessible, look
for it, because it exists.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yeah, so it's, we're not in this alone.
We it's a very small population, if you will, of therapists,
like in your own communities.
You, you, we all kind of knoweach other.
But find, find that supportsystem when within your own
(11:24):
group of people or reach outlike, hey, I'm, I'm working with
high conflict divorce cases.
Do you know any other clinicianthat does this work that I can
lean in to for support?
And because we are all.
I've never found a therapistthat said no, I can't help you.
To another colleague.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
We're a champion of people andI have always felt, even in
taking on these cases, that Ihave my group of people that I
can lean in on.
I have found a consultationgroup that focuses only on
court-involved cases andcourt-involved therapists, and
so the support systems are outthere for you as a clinician, to
(12:22):
lean into.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Didn't have a legal background.
If you know, I work with a lotof my you know supervisees and
they've never even been to courtfor themselves and their
personal life, like the idea ofgoing to court, has just been so
big and villainized for them.
Where would someone start?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
One.
It would be finding thatsupport system.
If that's something that piquesyour interest, you know, find
another therapist that is doingthat work, get curious around
that work.
And also I'm sure that thattherapist has taken some type of
training with court-involvedtherapy.
There's an amazing training.
(13:05):
Not that I'm plugging in oranything but there's an amazing
training here in California thatI attended and it was even
myself with the background thatI have like to still learn from
others in the field.
I think is very, very important.
And so there are trainings outthere with this population.
(13:26):
So I say, connect with somebody, whether it doesn't necessarily
need to be a mentorship, butjust get curious around that
work.
What does it look like?
Maybe bring your fears to thatperson that feels comfortable
and safe and say, yeah, I'mreally, I'm interested, but I'm
scared.
And then get trained in thespecifics of that.
Right, we have trainings inspecific areas EMDR for children
(13:50):
, right, TheraPlay there can be.
There are trainings ofnavigating family separation and
family divorce that they canlean into as well.
So I say that would be just likethe basic first steps.
And then if you're like, okay,I really like this, this I feel
equipped, I feel like I havesome foundation where it's not
(14:13):
as shaky as maybe it was justthe idea in my head.
I think I want to start doingthis type of work, then it
really is making sure that youhave a mentor or a group,
consultation group, Because, asyou are new into this field with
this population in specific orspecifically, you want to make
(14:34):
sure that you really really havea solid foundation on support
for you navigating your ownfears, because it's really going
to be about that.
How do I navigate my own fearof like, oh, I received a
subpoena, what do I do next?
And to find yourself with agroup of people that have been
through that and can walk youthrough the steps, it just feels
(14:56):
so much more grounding.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
I find, too, that a lot of clinicians feel like
there's a power imbalance whenwe are being called upon by the
legal system.
I had a friend one time who isan attorney herself and she just
told me she was like Maria, wego to the same amount of school
that you do.
Our schooling is the same,they're just different topics.
(15:21):
She was like and you know me, Imake mistakes, it's going to
happen.
I make mistakes, it's gonnahappen.
Um, and that helps kind ofhumanize the other side because
and I don't think I'm alone inthinking that like it does feel
like there's a power imbalanceyeah and that we are like we're
the ones in trouble when we getthe subpoena.
That's what it feels like.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Right, it's our being called to the principal's
office yeah, and in all of this,right like what I tell my
supervisors is, when you are insystems in order to humanize and
understand systems, we all haveto remember what's the agenda
of each entity here.
So for all of us who are mentalhealth therapists, our agenda
(16:04):
is to help clients process andget to where they want to get.
Whatever that looks like.
For attorneys is to win cases,however they want to get there.
For social workers for like.
We can go on and on.
So I always tell and remind mysupervisees let's come back to
(16:25):
tell me what's the goal.
What's the goal of this meeting, what's the goal of this
session, what is the goal of?
So that you can have clarity inregards to what is it and how
can you prepare.
But what I love about what yousaid earlier, which is training
For all of you who are new andseasoned, we tend to forget that
(16:48):
is ongoing professionaldevelopment.
Everything that we do requirestraining, not the idea, like
when we get out of school, thatwe can go treat everyone and
help everyone.
Our master's program is just afoundation, a theory foundation.
Our master's program is just afoundation, a theory foundation.
That's it and it's the ongoingtraining.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
So I love that you highlighted that the core
involved training.
Yeah, I also love Liliana thatyou tied that in with and Maria,
how you guys tied in theseother systems, right, that it
does feel like a power, like, ohno, the court is telling me to
do this and it's like I'm not apart of their case, like I am
not a litigant in this familycourt case, so I am not ordered
(17:38):
to do anything.
Yes, right, I'm not a part ofthe case, I.
I am not ordered to do anything.
If it's a subpoena, that's alittle different.
But if a client comes to youwith we have this court order
the child needs to be inindividual therapy, we need to
find a therapist.
We'd like you take the case.
If it's not a good fit, you cansay no, you know.
(18:00):
If it's, if you don't have thespace for it, you can say no,
you can say no.
But I love Liliana, with thesystem of our roles, or the
understanding of our roles in asystem perspective, right.
So our role as therapists is tohelp process, to help, you know
(18:22):
, with the healing process,whatever that may look like, and
the attorney's position is tolitigate for their client, right
, it's to win, if you will, fortheir client and the court is
there to hear all of the sidesand ultimately make a decision.
So we all have a role in thissystem of this family that's
(18:43):
coming in, and I think that'sreally, really important to
understand.
And I think that's reallyreally important to understand.
And because the attorneys arepart of the system, I love
working with attorneys.
When I get a case, I make surethat I have a release of
information to speak to theattorneys, because part of it is
quieting their voice too.
(19:03):
Like, hey, you're doing moreharm than good here.
I know you're advocating foryour client.
That is what you get paid for.
I see that wholeheartedly.
But you know this may be anaggressive way of going about it
in the legal part.
That is then putting the childin distress.
Yeah Right, can you see it fromthe child's viewpoint?
(19:25):
I'm always trying to bring allthe systems back to the child's
viewpoint Parents alike,attorneys alike, and so
understanding their roles andseeing them as not scary
entities or scary positions inthe system, but really
collaborative pieces.
How can I collaborate with thesedifferent pieces of the family
(19:46):
system where it's going tobenefit the family and I always
lean in with that too when Ihave a call with the attorneys,
and I always have the attorneysat the same time.
I try to not just meet with oneattorney to eliminate any type
of biases, but I will say whatis it that you need from me?
(20:08):
That would be helpful.
And each, each attorney isgoing to come with their need of
their client.
So now I have a perspective oflike okay, now I know what their
angle is in litigation.
Right, I know now what they're,what they're fighting for on
behalf of their client.
And then attorneys generally are.
(20:28):
So they want to know and in myexperience they have also said
what Liliana said, like, hey,this is my role.
I don't know what you do, right, I can't, but I want to know.
I've had attorneys say, hey, Iwant to know how I could write
this order or how I can presentthe best order for the family to
(20:50):
the other attorney, so that wecan just not litigate in court
and stipulate.
So attorneys are willing towork with us and they want the
language, they want to know whatour positions are and they
don't want to put us in a hardplace.
So when we normalize that, theyare just human place.
(21:12):
So when we normalize that, theyare just human, like Maria said
, that have the same amount ofeducation in terms of years,
just different topics, differentways of viewing systems.
They're not scary becausethey're just like us.
They went, you know, theypursued higher education and
their fields are different, butthey are human and I think as
(21:33):
healers, as communicators, weare able to have access to that
piece of the system.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I think, extending the grace we extend, like
parents and others that are inthe systems right, like they're
doing the best they can withwhat they have.
They don't have the knowledgethat we have right, because
we'll see things like we'll seecourt orders or, you know, we'll
have requests come through andwe're like, oh, this makes no
(22:01):
sense, why, how did you get here?
There is no way.
This is not evendevelopmentally appropriate,
yeah, and I have to alwaysremind everybody and myself to
step back and be like they'renot doing this to be malicious.
They don't know any better.
They don't know any better.
And if we can be collaborative,then we'll see maybe fewer of
those really weird orders comethrough.
(22:23):
Maybe fewer of those reallyweird orders come through.
And I love that when you'veopened the door for dialogue,
they've been reallycollaborative with you and they
want that, they want thatknowledge so that they can be
more helpful.
I had shared that we arestarting locally.
We've started having meetingswith our family law judges, with
(22:44):
clinicians here in town, tokind of minimize some of these
fears, to clarify our role,their role, what does this mean
To talk about?
Hey, this was a really weirdorder, how did we get here?
And the judge at one point evensaid like tell me how you want
it written?
And we all just kind of werelike wait, what Really Really
(23:05):
you, you want it written.
And we all just kind of werelike wait, what Really Really
you want that from us?
Because even in these meetingswe've had one so far we all file
into the courtroom and it's alllike we all feel like we've
been called to the principal'soffice and part of the reason
we're having them there is tohelp normalize being in the
courtroom, being in thecourthouse, that it's not a big
(23:28):
scary thing, and so I think thatthat's lovely and I think we
need more clinicians willing todo this work.
I know in our own communitiesand those that I have
supervisees in, like since COVID, we've had more and more family
conflict and court-involvedcases come through and I just
(23:49):
don't see that changing.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I see more of it now and I wonder if it has to do
with, you know, just society'stake on normalizing therapy
right and how therapy is helpful.
And you know we've come a longway of the view in society of
(24:15):
what therapy is, what it is for,how it is beneficial.
And I think that the legalsystem is catching on to that
and saying wait a minute, youguys, I've seen you guys, I've
been, you have been in mycourtroom for two years like
enough, right.
And I think judges are kind ofgetting to the point where it's
like everyone needs therapy.
You know, parents are supposedto be an individual therapy, the
(24:37):
child is supposed to be anindividual therapy and there
also needs to be family therapy.
So at the end of the courts I'mseeing these orders like come
in and I'm like because they'rejust so caught up in the cycle
of the system of fighting eachother where really we need to
heal those ruptures.
(24:58):
We need to help them processthe pain, the hurt and move
towards.
What would co-parenting looklike with this parent that is
not co parentable?
That's my meetup word.
Yeah, this person is not.
I cannot, that would neverhappen.
(25:19):
But what would it look like ifwe work towards that.
Let's give it a shot.
I mean, you've been litigatingfor three years and that hasn't
helped, you know.
Are you willing to take thisrisk and work towards just to be
respectful for one another?
Like what would it look like?
I love this.
I always tell my parents thiswhat would it look like for your
(25:42):
child to be in the same roomwith you and the other parent
and they don't have to pleaseeither one of you and they could
just be themselves and theydon't have to be afraid of what
one parent is going to say orwhat the other parent is going
to do, that you two have workedso hard to just respect each
other and be in that you couldhold yourself for 15, 20 minutes
(26:07):
in the same space for yourchild.
Like what would that look like?
What would it feel like?
And it's just like for theparent that hears that they're
like whoa, oh of course am Idoing this am I am is that?
Is that what I'm doing to mychild?
Am I the problem?
No, it's me, but in thatquestion I Very, very alpha, but
(26:29):
it's me.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
But what I love about that question is that you're
naming the fantasy and theemotion, the intensity of the
emotion, to balance it out intorealistically.
What would that look like?
Which is so beautiful?
A beautiful way of like.
How can we balance this?
Because you got together ormarried with one hope and you
(26:52):
are divorcing um, with adifferent set of values and
emotions, and and hurt emotions,uh, no one dreams about getting
married.
I used to, um, I used to doparental agreements and I used
to ask that question Like no onegets married with the idea of
like when are we going to getdivorced and what are we going
(27:15):
to fight about?
And in that fight, like I'mgoing to make your life so
miserable that we're going tofight about holidays?
Like no one does that becausein the honeymoon we're not
thinking about those things.
Yet here we are and I love whatyou said, which is true Judges
in my county the judge wassending already to us to do the
(27:38):
parental agreements, because thecourts are all about facts, not
emotion, and all of us inmental health we're in the
business of emotion.
How can I help you organize theemotions attached to this
experience and organize it in away that is less intensive for
you, so that you can function.
(27:59):
That's a nice way of sayinghealing, but that's exactly what
we do in that process.
So it's such a beautiful way ofyou asking them to neutralize
the fantasy, either of thevillain I always think about
Maria, like the villains andbring them into reality.
So, as you were talking, I waslike man.
(28:22):
This is so beautiful.
As you were talking, I was likeman.
This is so beautiful.
What is one thing thatsupervisees, besides all your
knowledge, that supervisees tendto look for when they seek you
out?
Is it just for support?
Is it for what forms am Imissing?
(28:42):
Is it for help me Like?
Is it all of the above?
What is it?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, it is.
It.
Is it all of the above?
What is it?
Yeah, it is.
It is part of all of the above.
I might have a better answerfor you in a few months, but I'm
actually bringing on a newclinician and it is a lot about
that, like, let me help youunderstand how to take this case
, and we're going to take itfrom ground zero up until, like,
(29:10):
you are fully comfortable andconfident in being a therapist.
I mean, you're a greatclinician already with coming
out of school and having thatfoundational theory knowledge.
So now let's kind of work at.
What do we need in these cases?
Right, first, you want to speakto both parents, as long as
(29:33):
that's allowed.
Right, there are.
It's important to note thatthere are cases where, if
there's a domestic violencerestraining order that's in
place currently, that you wantto make sure that you're abiding
by that.
But I would sit down with mysupervisee and, okay, let's work
(29:55):
this through.
First, we're going to there'ssteps.
Right, we're going to meet witheach parent.
You're going to do a consultcall with each parent.
Then the next step is yourfirst session is going to be a
parent session.
So you want to get contextinformation.
You want to get historicalinformation.
If you can get both parents inthe room, wonderful.
We will always push for bothparents in the room.
We're always going to push forboth parents on the same email
(30:18):
thread for scheduling Everythingthat is communicated to one
parent, the other parent needsto be included on that
communication.
Those are just ground rulesthat we are going to put in
place so that the family knowswhat our standard is and from
there we're going to start thenbuilding onto the case of seeing
(30:39):
the case from a bird's eye view, right Meeting with the parents
and then we meet with the child.
So the reason for me I don't,you know, I want to assume that
most play therapists ortherapists that work with
children work in this manner.
But for me it's reallyimportant to meet the parents
first, because if the parent hasany inclination that I am not
(31:04):
going to be a good fit for thatchild, I don't want to meet that
child.
I don't want to connect a bondbecause maybe the child may like
me.
I mean I'm pretty cool to meetthat child.
I don't want to connect a bondbecause maybe the child may like
me.
I mean I'm pretty cool and allyou know, but they may like me.
And what if the parent didn'tand they're like you're not
going to see her anymore?
Then that's a ruptured you know.
(31:24):
It could be a relationship thatis ruptured and trust and it
could lead to other issues thatthe child may have to process
later on in their therapeuticjourney.
So for me it's really importantto have that parent session and
once the parents say, yes, it'sa go, we'll bring the child.
(31:45):
Then I meet the child and evenwith the child I give them
agency.
I say, hey, it's so good tohave you here.
This is the playroom, this isyou know.
And I say, but if after todayor maybe we meet a couple of
times and you're like you knowwhat, but Anissa is not my cup
of tea or whatever the coollingo is, you know these days
(32:05):
you know what you can tell yourparent that you want to find
somebody else, and that's goingto be okay because we're here to
help you and we want to makesure that you find somebody that
fits for you.
So I give that child thatagency and generally you know
they stick and they stay becausethey love the playroom and I'm
(32:25):
playful, and so a lot of thatwork is done up front.
So for the trainees, all of that, to say that, for the
supervisees, the associates thatare coming into your practice
or that just want to learn, oreven a seasoned clinician that
wants to learn the framework ofworking with this population, it
(32:47):
is a we're going to slow itdown process.
It is a slow process.
We are not going to rush intotreatment.
We need to get a bird's eyeview of what this family's
system looks like.
How long have they been inlitigation?
What is the current process orwhere's the current status of
(33:09):
their separation?
How long have they been doingthis?
Who's the judge?
Right, like you want to get allof that because that's going to
give you a bird's eye view of,like whoa, these parents have
been at each other for years.
Okay, it's not.
It's not a fresh separation.
Maybe, it is.
And then you're like, okay,good, we're very early on, we're
(33:32):
not in the thick of litigationfor years and you hate each
other.
There's still hope.
So yeah, I think it's slowingit down, doing step-by-step and
then looking at it from a bird'seye view.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think it's just a foundational step up for yeah,
even the steps right, like theway that you just named it, I
was like, oh, this is like sobeautiful, you know.
Initial contact with parents,set up times for them to do
intakes, get all the courtorders, including restraining
orders, for you to know.
Make sure that we have theproper forms, consents, clarify
(34:11):
the communication includes allit's replied to all the time.
Everyone will be included,there will be no secrecies.
And then meeting the child togive autonomy to the child,
which in most cases like this,they don't have it because of
the fear of invisible loyaltiesand trying to please.
And a warm-up, conflict,beautiful foundation that you
have and trying to please and awarm or conflict, beautiful
(34:32):
foundation that you have andyou're giving to your supervises
.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Thank you.
What a gift, truly, truly agift, and it's so needed, so
needed.
Yeah, no, I love what you'redoing and I love that you you
know we've we connected and youshared that.
You've been able to talk aboutthis with others and another
podcast, and I think it's soimportant because I think high
(34:56):
conflict court involved cases isstill a big scary for many,
many clinicians in our field.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It is, and I I mean my hope is to be able to provide
right trainings and where wecan go into more in depth about
the steps and because it isneeded.
It's such a huge need,especially because I'm in
Southern California.
So I'm seeing a lot of courtorders ordering families to go
(35:28):
to therapy, whether it'sindividual therapy for the
parents, whether it'sco-parenting.
We call it conjoined therapy.
It's what most states callreunification therapy, but
California is a little moreprogressive in changing the
language around that.
But conjoined therapy,individual therapy for the child
, and in some cases it has to bea registered play therapist.
(35:52):
So I'm again seeing it morehere in Southern California that
these orders are coming out andwhen a parent is then given
that order and going out to lookfor that therapist, they're
being met with a wall becauseyeah.
Because the moment they say, ohwell, the court ordered that I
(36:12):
have to do individual therapy,I'm like, well, I don't take any
court mandated therapy.
I don't you know, if the courtordered you, I don't do it.
Even if it's an individualadult.
I've had experiences with that,where the therapist is like the
moment a court is said, thenthey don't take it.
I've also heard therapists thattake on a case and then they
(36:33):
find out that it's courtmandated and they're like I
already seen the child twice, Idon't want to take this case.
Like, how do I back out of this?
And I'm like you don't, right,like let me sit with you, we got
this, you know, thank you forreaching out, I'm here to
support you.
Have you asked for this?
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And so then it becomes aconsultation within colleagues.
But it is scary, it is thevillain in our profession.
(36:58):
And so if we can give voice to,if we can give a platform to
have that voice be heard, that,hey, we got this, we are skilled
, it doesn't have to be thevillain, right, we can be the
heroine at the end of the moviethat says, hey, this villain
(37:20):
didn't take me down, right, Iwas able to rise above it, and
we have the skills to do it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Oh, I love this, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
I hope our listeners reach outto you for consultations and I
hope that soon we see somethingin regards to training so that
we can all go take this trainingfrom you.
We can all benefit fromtraining, even when we think
like we don't work with thatpopulation like you do.
(37:47):
You're just not asking theright questions.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And you're going to.
They're going to show up.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, they will show up.
So thank you for all of youlisteners.
Just know that we will includeall of this information in our
podcast.
Please reach out to her andlook out.
Her trainings are coming.
They're hot out of the press.
You need that.
That's all I have to say.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yes, Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me Untilnext time.
Welcome back listeners.
So excited to have you for thisepisode of Heroes Welcome
Podcast.
I'm Marie Leclerc, your co-host.
I'm here today with my bestie.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
That's me.
I was going to say Berenice.
No, that's me, liliana, andwe're here with our special
guest.
How would you like to introduceyourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Well, thank you both for having me this morning.
My name is Berenice LeonFonseca it's a mouthful, but
this is who I am and I am achild therapist at heart.
That works more from a familysystems perspective heart, but
(00:48):
works more from a family systemsperspective.
And a twist with that is that Ialso navigate towards helping
families that are navigating thefamily separation process.
That is my niche, that is mysweet spot of working with
families that are navigatingdivorce, family separation,
court-mandated therapy all ofthose scary words that we hear
(01:10):
in our practices and ourprofession is what drives me to
do the work that I do.
All right, listeners everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Just take a deep breath.
I know she just triggered allof us, but it's so wonderful to
know that there are clinicianslike you who not only are
willing to do this work but leaninto and are really passionate
(01:41):
about doing this work Because,unfortunately, it's becoming
more and more of a request and aneed in, I would say, almost
100 of our communities.
Yeah, how did you fall intohigh conflict, because that's
something usually most of us runaway from.
Yeah, um, and you didn't runaway and in fact, you leaned in.
So how did that happen?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
yeah, yeah, I leaned in, not knowing that this really
was a need in our profession.
I do have a legal background.
I, in my undergraduate work,was pursuing a future in law,
(02:23):
and so I went the long route inschool.
I was married and traveled andthen I said, oh, I should
probably get an education.
And so I went to school a lotlater than my peers and so in my
undergrad I really lovedsociology.
I loved the knowledge of howsystems impact society, right.
(02:46):
So that really gravitatedtowards me.
And I had an emphasis incriminology which was like, oh,
there's a bigger system, right,like the judicial system and
incarceration, and so I was justreally fascinated by how
systems worked and theimplications it has on society,
communities, environments.
So with that I decided topursue law and in the interim,
(03:11):
because I was on the slow trackof my education, I got a
paralegal degree and worked as aparalegal in the judicial
system here in San Diego and didthat for many years as, again,
slow track to school, and thenrealized that I do not want to
be an attorney.
I was like, nope, this is not,you know, it was just stressful.
(03:35):
I experienced a lot of familiescoming in, stressed at the
system, the judicial systemitself, the system, the judicial
system itself, family law inparticular.
And so in that work I reallyfell in love with the stories
behind what was coming in.
And so, when I graduated with myundergrad and trying to figure
(03:56):
out what I was going to do withmy adult life, I then decided to
pursue a decided to pursue amaster's degree in marriage and
family therapy, and during thatcourse I loved working with kids
.
I love the idea of working withchildren, and so naturally, I
(04:16):
would get children that weregoing through family separation.
And because I have this legalbackground, I also had a
background in understanding thejudicial system, the language of
the court, the implications ofthe court, the stressors of the
court.
I really felt like I couldunderstand the language that the
(04:40):
parents were coming in with,and it made it easy for me to
feel like, oh, I know what anRFO is.
I know all the acronyms, right,I know a FOA.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I know.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And you know they throw all these things at you.
As a clinician who doesn't havethat background, you're like
what are they talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
It's a whole other language.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It's a whole other language.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So understanding the language made it a lot easier
for me.
So I did have that vantagepoint, but as a clinician it was
different, right as now, as aclinician, kind of on the other
side of the bench, if you will,it was.
It was a learning curve for me.
It's like, okay, wait, how do Ido this as a therapist?
(05:23):
Take off my paralegal hat andmy law hat and how do I help
these families with thetherapeutic hat?
And I think, Maria, I leaned inwith it because I knew a lot of
therapists weren't taking onthese cases and there was a tug
at my heart of like, well,somebody has to do it right, we
(05:46):
can't just leave families indespair, if you will.
And so I jumped in and I saidI'll do it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I love that I'm meeting more and more therapists
that have a differentbackground before their
counseling program, and I thinkthat's something that we didn't
used to talk about, and you'rehighlighting the benefit of it,
right, no shade for all of youwho went straight, who knew what
you wanted to do, but, come on,we got a lot of crap for not
(06:22):
having that straight road whenwe had a different background.
So kudos to you for leaning inand taking a niche that needs
our help.
So can I ask you something?
When we think about why do youthink our field specifically
play therapists when they thinkabout high conflict divorce,
(06:42):
they run away.
So what is the most like?
What is the theme?
What is the most fear that youhear about working with this
population?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I find it that it's not the population.
I find that we are afraid ofwhat's going to happen to us.
There you go.
Thank you for naming that.
Yeah, it is.
It's like when I hear highconflict, when I hear court
mandated, what I'm hearing isyou want my records, you want me
(07:13):
to testify.
Someone's going to file acomplaint to BBS?
Well, I'm in California, soours is the Board of Behavioral
Services.
Yeah, the BBS.
And so you know, my licensingboard is going to hear from
somebody.
My license is at risk.
All of these risks.
What I hear from therapists isI don't take these cases because
(07:35):
I want to protect myself, andthat's not why we came into this
field.
We are healers, we are peoplethat sit with, we want, we've
chosen.
I think this is so huge andthank you, liliana, for calling
this out I think it's so hugethat we have to remember why we
(07:57):
came into this profession,because it's not the pay, it's
not you know, it's not you know,know.
A lot of us are burnt out.
A lot of us are, um, we workreally hard and we want to be in
this position, so we come inwith this heart for people, um,
(08:18):
and when we hear somebody thatis being impacted by systems and
then we say no to them becausewe're afraid of what's going to
happen to us, that just doesn'tsit well, if we say it out loud,
right.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah Well, I think there's a lot of fear mongering,
right.
I think what we fear is blownout of proportion from what's
actual likely to happen.
Yes, right, like it's not theworst.
I mean, if you're involved inhelp in the helping field,
someone's going to have acomplaint against you at some
point in your career.
I think that we just need tonormalize that instead of fear
(08:54):
mongering, because it does.
It keeps healers and helpersout of those spaces where we're
actually really needed.
This is where we're actuallyreally needed.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah.
So for all of you who are new,the new cohort of therapists,
think about what you got fromyour instructors in your
master's program, which is don'tget grievance, don't take like
it was all this fear base of thethings that we couldn't do.
Oh yeah, they're going to takeat risk.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That means that we're willing to jump in to the fire
with them.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
With them right.
With them With them right.
It means like that, and thatthere's things that we can do in
order for us to understandwhat's our role right.
So you started with I have thisdegree prior to coming into
master's, so I learned thislanguage.
I learned what to do here andnow as a MFT thank you for being
(10:22):
among us and then like there'ssomething here and then.
How do I integrate both andhonoring the difference of both?
So what is one takeaway thatyou would like to share with our
listeners who are just starting, or you're in the season and
you avoid this population, butwhat is one nugget that you will
say take this from today.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I say that you can find support.
There's always going to be asupport system to hold you as a
clinician, and if you don't havethat readily accessible, look
for it, because it exists.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yeah, so it's, we're not in this alone.
We it's a very small population, if you will, of therapists,
like in your own communities.
You, you, we all kind of knoweach other.
But find, find that supportsystem when within your own
(11:24):
group of people or reach outlike, hey, I'm, I'm working with
high conflict divorce cases.
Do you know any other clinicianthat does this work that I can
lean in to for support?
And because we are all.
I've never found a therapistthat said no, I can't help you.
To another colleague.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
We're a champion of people andI have always felt, even in
taking on these cases, that Ihave my group of people that I
can lean in on.
I have found a consultationgroup that focuses only on
court-involved cases andcourt-involved therapists, and
so the support systems are outthere for you as a clinician, to
(12:22):
lean into.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Didn't have a legal background.
If you know, I work with a lotof my you know supervisees and
they've never even been to courtfor themselves and their
personal life, like the idea ofgoing to court, has just been so
big and villainized for them.
Where would someone start?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
One.
It would be finding thatsupport system.
If that's something that piquesyour interest, you know, find
another therapist that is doingthat work, get curious around
that work.
And also I'm sure that thattherapist has taken some type of
training with court-involvedtherapy.
There's an amazing training.
(13:05):
Not that I'm plugging in oranything but there's an amazing
training here in California thatI attended and it was even
myself with the background thatI have like to still learn from
others in the field.
I think is very, very important.
And so there are trainings outthere with this population.
(13:26):
So I say, connect with somebody, whether it doesn't necessarily
need to be a mentorship, butjust get curious around that
work.
What does it look like?
Maybe bring your fears to thatperson that feels comfortable
and safe and say, yeah, I'mreally, I'm interested, but I'm
scared.
And then get trained in thespecifics of that.
Right, we have trainings inspecific areas EMDR for children
(13:50):
, right, TheraPlay there can be.
There are trainings ofnavigating family separation and
family divorce that they canlean into as well.
So I say that would be just likethe basic first steps.
And then if you're like, okay,I really like this, this I feel
equipped, I feel like I havesome foundation where it's not
(14:13):
as shaky as maybe it was justthe idea in my head.
I think I want to start doingthis type of work, then it
really is making sure that youhave a mentor or a group,
consultation group, Because, asyou are new into this field with
this population in specific orspecifically, you want to make
(14:34):
sure that you really really havea solid foundation on support
for you navigating your ownfears, because it's really going
to be about that.
How do I navigate my own fearof like, oh, I received a
subpoena, what do I do next?
And to find yourself with agroup of people that have been
through that and can walk youthrough the steps, it just feels
(14:56):
so much more grounding.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
I find, too, that a lot of clinicians feel like
there's a power imbalance whenwe are being called upon by the
legal system.
I had a friend one time who isan attorney herself and she just
told me she was like Maria, wego to the same amount of school
that you do.
Our schooling is the same,they're just different topics.
(15:21):
She was like and you know me, Imake mistakes, it's going to
happen.
I make mistakes, it's gonnahappen.
Um, and that helps kind ofhumanize the other side because
and I don't think I'm alone inthinking that like it does feel
like there's a power imbalanceyeah and that we are like we're
the ones in trouble when we getthe subpoena.
That's what it feels like.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Right, it's our being called to the principal's
office yeah, and in all of this,right like what I tell my
supervisors is, when you are insystems in order to humanize and
understand systems, we all haveto remember what's the agenda
of each entity here.
So for all of us who are mentalhealth therapists, our agenda
(16:04):
is to help clients process andget to where they want to get.
Whatever that looks like.
For attorneys is to win cases,however they want to get there.
For social workers for like.
We can go on and on.
So I always tell and remind mysupervisees let's come back to
(16:25):
tell me what's the goal.
What's the goal of this meeting, what's the goal of this
session, what is the goal of?
So that you can have clarity inregards to what is it and how
can you prepare.
But what I love about what yousaid earlier, which is training
For all of you who are new andseasoned, we tend to forget that
(16:48):
is ongoing professionaldevelopment.
Everything that we do requirestraining, not the idea, like
when we get out of school, thatwe can go treat everyone and
help everyone.
Our master's program is just afoundation, a theory foundation.
Our master's program is just afoundation, a theory foundation.
That's it and it's the ongoingtraining.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
So I love that you highlighted that the core
involved training.
Yeah, I also love Liliana thatyou tied that in with and Maria,
how you guys tied in theseother systems, right, that it
does feel like a power, like, ohno, the court is telling me to
do this and it's like I'm not apart of their case, like I am
not a litigant in this familycourt case, so I am not ordered
(17:38):
to do anything.
Yes, right, I'm not a part ofthe case, I.
I am not ordered to do anything.
If it's a subpoena, that's alittle different.
But if a client comes to youwith we have this court order
the child needs to be inindividual therapy, we need to
find a therapist.
We'd like you take the case.
If it's not a good fit, you cansay no, you know.
(18:00):
If it's, if you don't have thespace for it, you can say no,
you can say no.
But I love Liliana, with thesystem of our roles, or the
understanding of our roles in asystem perspective, right.
So our role as therapists is tohelp process, to help, you know
(18:22):
, with the healing process,whatever that may look like, and
the attorney's position is tolitigate for their client, right
, it's to win, if you will, fortheir client and the court is
there to hear all of the sidesand ultimately make a decision.
So we all have a role in thissystem of this family that's
(18:43):
coming in, and I think that'sreally, really important to
understand.
And I think that's reallyreally important to understand.
And because the attorneys arepart of the system, I love
working with attorneys.
When I get a case, I make surethat I have a release of
information to speak to theattorneys, because part of it is
quieting their voice too.
(19:03):
Like, hey, you're doing moreharm than good here.
I know you're advocating foryour client.
That is what you get paid for.
I see that wholeheartedly.
But you know this may be anaggressive way of going about it
in the legal part.
That is then putting the childin distress.
Yeah Right, can you see it fromthe child's viewpoint?
(19:25):
I'm always trying to bring allthe systems back to the child's
viewpoint Parents alike,attorneys alike, and so
understanding their roles andseeing them as not scary
entities or scary positions inthe system, but really
collaborative pieces.
How can I collaborate with thesedifferent pieces of the family
(19:46):
system where it's going tobenefit the family and I always
lean in with that too when Ihave a call with the attorneys,
and I always have the attorneysat the same time.
I try to not just meet with oneattorney to eliminate any type
of biases, but I will say whatis it that you need from me?
(20:08):
That would be helpful.
And each, each attorney isgoing to come with their need of
their client.
So now I have a perspective oflike okay, now I know what their
angle is in litigation.
Right, I know now what they're,what they're fighting for on
behalf of their client.
And then attorneys generally are.
(20:28):
So they want to know and in myexperience they have also said
what Liliana said, like, hey,this is my role.
I don't know what you do, right, I can't, but I want to know.
I've had attorneys say, hey, Iwant to know how I could write
this order or how I can presentthe best order for the family to
(20:50):
the other attorney, so that wecan just not litigate in court
and stipulate.
So attorneys are willing towork with us and they want the
language, they want to know whatour positions are and they
don't want to put us in a hardplace.
So when we normalize that, theyare just human place.
(21:12):
So when we normalize that, theyare just human, like Maria said
, that have the same amount ofeducation in terms of years,
just different topics, differentways of viewing systems.
They're not scary becausethey're just like us.
They went, you know, theypursued higher education and
their fields are different, butthey are human and I think as
(21:33):
healers, as communicators, weare able to have access to that
piece of the system.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I think, extending the grace we extend, like
parents and others that are inthe systems right, like they're
doing the best they can withwhat they have.
They don't have the knowledgethat we have right, because
we'll see things like we'll seecourt orders or, you know, we'll
have requests come through andwe're like, oh, this makes no
(22:01):
sense, why, how did you get here?
There is no way.
This is not evendevelopmentally appropriate,
yeah, and I have to alwaysremind everybody and myself to
step back and be like they'renot doing this to be malicious.
They don't know any better.
They don't know any better.
And if we can be collaborative,then we'll see maybe fewer of
those really weird orders comethrough.
(22:23):
Maybe fewer of those reallyweird orders come through.
And I love that when you'veopened the door for dialogue,
they've been reallycollaborative with you and they
want that, they want thatknowledge so that they can be
more helpful.
I had shared that we arestarting locally.
We've started having meetingswith our family law judges, with
(22:44):
clinicians here in town, tokind of minimize some of these
fears, to clarify our role,their role, what does this mean
To talk about?
Hey, this was a really weirdorder, how did we get here?
And the judge at one point evensaid like tell me how you want
it written?
And we all just kind of werelike wait, what Really Really
(23:05):
you, you want it written.
And we all just kind of werelike wait, what Really Really
you want that from us?
Because even in these meetingswe've had one so far we all file
into the courtroom and it's alllike we all feel like we've
been called to the principal'soffice and part of the reason
we're having them there is tohelp normalize being in the
courtroom, being in thecourthouse, that it's not a big
(23:28):
scary thing, and so I think thatthat's lovely and I think we
need more clinicians willing todo this work.
I know in our own communitiesand those that I have
supervisees in, like since COVID, we've had more and more family
conflict and court-involvedcases come through and I just
(23:49):
don't see that changing.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I see more of it now and I wonder if it has to do
with, you know, just society'stake on normalizing therapy
right and how therapy is helpful.
And you know we've come a longway of the view in society of
(24:15):
what therapy is, what it is for,how it is beneficial.
And I think that the legalsystem is catching on to that
and saying wait a minute, youguys, I've seen you guys, I've
been, you have been in mycourtroom for two years like
enough, right.
And I think judges are kind ofgetting to the point where it's
like everyone needs therapy.
You know, parents are supposedto be an individual therapy, the
(24:37):
child is supposed to be anindividual therapy and there
also needs to be family therapy.
So at the end of the courts I'mseeing these orders like come
in and I'm like because they'rejust so caught up in the cycle
of the system of fighting eachother where really we need to
heal those ruptures.
(24:58):
We need to help them processthe pain, the hurt and move
towards.
What would co-parenting looklike with this parent that is
not co parentable?
That's my meetup word.
Yeah, this person is not.
I cannot, that would neverhappen.
(25:19):
But what would it look like ifwe work towards that.
Let's give it a shot.
I mean, you've been litigatingfor three years and that hasn't
helped, you know.
Are you willing to take thisrisk and work towards just to be
respectful for one another?
Like what would it look like?
I love this.
I always tell my parents thiswhat would it look like for your
(25:42):
child to be in the same roomwith you and the other parent
and they don't have to pleaseeither one of you and they could
just be themselves and theydon't have to be afraid of what
one parent is going to say orwhat the other parent is going
to do, that you two have workedso hard to just respect each
other and be in that you couldhold yourself for 15, 20 minutes
(26:07):
in the same space for yourchild.
Like what would that look like?
What would it feel like?
And it's just like for theparent that hears that they're
like whoa, oh of course am Idoing this am I am is that?
Is that what I'm doing to mychild?
Am I the problem?
No, it's me, but in thatquestion I Very, very alpha, but
(26:29):
it's me.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
But what I love about that question is that you're
naming the fantasy and theemotion, the intensity of the
emotion, to balance it out intorealistically.
What would that look like?
Which is so beautiful?
A beautiful way of like.
How can we balance this?
Because you got together ormarried with one hope and you
(26:52):
are divorcing um, with adifferent set of values and
emotions, and and hurt emotions,uh, no one dreams about getting
married.
I used to, um, I used to doparental agreements and I used
to ask that question Like no onegets married with the idea of
like when are we going to getdivorced and what are we going
(27:15):
to fight about?
And in that fight, like I'mgoing to make your life so
miserable that we're going tofight about holidays?
Like no one does that becausein the honeymoon we're not
thinking about those things.
Yet here we are and I love whatyou said, which is true Judges
in my county the judge wassending already to us to do the
(27:38):
parental agreements, because thecourts are all about facts, not
emotion, and all of us inmental health we're in the
business of emotion.
How can I help you organize theemotions attached to this
experience and organize it in away that is less intensive for
you, so that you can function.
(27:59):
That's a nice way of sayinghealing, but that's exactly what
we do in that process.
So it's such a beautiful way ofyou asking them to neutralize
the fantasy, either of thevillain I always think about
Maria, like the villains andbring them into reality.
So, as you were talking, I waslike man.
(28:22):
This is so beautiful.
As you were talking, I was likeman.
This is so beautiful.
What is one thing thatsupervisees, besides all your
knowledge, that supervisees tendto look for when they seek you
out?
Is it just for support?
Is it for what forms am Imissing?
(28:42):
Is it for help me Like?
Is it all of the above?
What is it?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, it is.
It.
Is it all of the above?
What is it?
Yeah, it is.
It is part of all of the above.
I might have a better answerfor you in a few months, but I'm
actually bringing on a newclinician and it is a lot about
that, like, let me help youunderstand how to take this case
, and we're going to take itfrom ground zero up until, like,
(29:10):
you are fully comfortable andconfident in being a therapist.
I mean, you're a greatclinician already with coming
out of school and having thatfoundational theory knowledge.
So now let's kind of work at.
What do we need in these cases?
Right, first, you want to speakto both parents, as long as
(29:33):
that's allowed.
Right, there are.
It's important to note thatthere are cases where, if
there's a domestic violencerestraining order that's in
place currently, that you wantto make sure that you're abiding
by that.
But I would sit down with mysupervisee and, okay, let's work
(29:55):
this through.
First, we're going to there'ssteps.
Right, we're going to meet witheach parent.
You're going to do a consultcall with each parent.
Then the next step is yourfirst session is going to be a
parent session.
So you want to get contextinformation.
You want to get historicalinformation.
If you can get both parents inthe room, wonderful.
We will always push for bothparents in the room.
We're always going to push forboth parents on the same email
(30:18):
thread for scheduling Everythingthat is communicated to one
parent, the other parent needsto be included on that
communication.
Those are just ground rulesthat we are going to put in
place so that the family knowswhat our standard is and from
there we're going to start thenbuilding onto the case of seeing
(30:39):
the case from a bird's eye view, right Meeting with the parents
and then we meet with the child.
So the reason for me I don't,you know, I want to assume that
most play therapists ortherapists that work with
children work in this manner.
But for me it's reallyimportant to meet the parents
first, because if the parent hasany inclination that I am not
(31:04):
going to be a good fit for thatchild, I don't want to meet that
child.
I don't want to connect a bondbecause maybe the child may like
me.
I mean I'm pretty cool to meetthat child.
I don't want to connect a bondbecause maybe the child may like
me.
I mean I'm pretty cool and allyou know, but they may like me.
And what if the parent didn'tand they're like you're not
going to see her anymore?
Then that's a ruptured you know.
(31:24):
It could be a relationship thatis ruptured and trust and it
could lead to other issues thatthe child may have to process
later on in their therapeuticjourney.
So for me it's really importantto have that parent session and
once the parents say, yes, it'sa go, we'll bring the child.
(31:45):
Then I meet the child and evenwith the child I give them
agency.
I say, hey, it's so good tohave you here.
This is the playroom, this isyou know.
And I say, but if after todayor maybe we meet a couple of
times and you're like you knowwhat, but Anissa is not my cup
of tea or whatever the coollingo is, you know these days
(32:05):
you know what you can tell yourparent that you want to find
somebody else, and that's goingto be okay because we're here to
help you and we want to makesure that you find somebody that
fits for you.
So I give that child thatagency and generally you know
they stick and they stay becausethey love the playroom and I'm
(32:25):
playful, and so a lot of thatwork is done up front.
So for the trainees, all of that, to say that, for the
supervisees, the associates thatare coming into your practice
or that just want to learn, oreven a seasoned clinician that
wants to learn the framework ofworking with this population, it
(32:47):
is a we're going to slow itdown process.
It is a slow process.
We are not going to rush intotreatment.
We need to get a bird's eyeview of what this family's
system looks like.
How long have they been inlitigation?
What is the current process orwhere's the current status of
(33:09):
their separation?
How long have they been doingthis?
Who's the judge?
Right, like you want to get allof that because that's going to
give you a bird's eye view of,like whoa, these parents have
been at each other for years.
Okay, it's not.
It's not a fresh separation.
Maybe, it is.
And then you're like, okay,good, we're very early on, we're
(33:32):
not in the thick of litigationfor years and you hate each
other.
There's still hope.
So yeah, I think it's slowingit down, doing step-by-step and
then looking at it from a bird'seye view.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think it's just a foundational step up for yeah,
even the steps right, like theway that you just named it, I
was like, oh, this is like sobeautiful, you know.
Initial contact with parents,set up times for them to do
intakes, get all the courtorders, including restraining
orders, for you to know.
Make sure that we have theproper forms, consents, clarify
(34:11):
the communication includes allit's replied to all the time.
Everyone will be included,there will be no secrecies.
And then meeting the child togive autonomy to the child,
which in most cases like this,they don't have it because of
the fear of invisible loyaltiesand trying to please.
And a warm-up, conflict,beautiful foundation that you
have and trying to please and awarm or conflict, beautiful
(34:32):
foundation that you have andyou're giving to your supervises
.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Thank you.
What a gift, truly, truly agift, and it's so needed, so
needed.
Yeah, no, I love what you'redoing and I love that you you
know we've we connected and youshared that.
You've been able to talk aboutthis with others and another
podcast, and I think it's soimportant because I think high
(34:56):
conflict court involved cases isstill a big scary for many,
many clinicians in our field.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It is, and I I mean my hope is to be able to provide
right trainings and where wecan go into more in depth about
the steps and because it isneeded.
It's such a huge need,especially because I'm in
Southern California.
So I'm seeing a lot of courtorders ordering families to go
(35:28):
to therapy, whether it'sindividual therapy for the
parents, whether it'sco-parenting.
We call it conjoined therapy.
It's what most states callreunification therapy, but
California is a little moreprogressive in changing the
language around that.
But conjoined therapy,individual therapy for the child
, and in some cases it has to bea registered play therapist.
(35:52):
So I'm again seeing it morehere in Southern California that
these orders are coming out andwhen a parent is then given
that order and going out to lookfor that therapist, they're
being met with a wall becauseyeah.
Because the moment they say, ohwell, the court ordered that I
(36:12):
have to do individual therapy,I'm like, well, I don't take any
court mandated therapy.
I don't you know, if the courtordered you, I don't do it.
Even if it's an individualadult.
I've had experiences with that,where the therapist is like the
moment a court is said, thenthey don't take it.
I've also heard therapists thattake on a case and then they
(36:33):
find out that it's courtmandated and they're like I
already seen the child twice, Idon't want to take this case.
Like, how do I back out of this?
And I'm like you don't, right,like let me sit with you, we got
this, you know, thank you forreaching out, I'm here to
support you.
Have you asked for this?
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And so then it becomes aconsultation within colleagues.
But it is scary, it is thevillain in our profession.
(36:58):
And so if we can give voice to,if we can give a platform to
have that voice be heard, that,hey, we got this, we are skilled
, it doesn't have to be thevillain, right, we can be the
heroine at the end of the moviethat says, hey, this villain
(37:20):
didn't take me down, right, Iwas able to rise above it, and
we have the skills to do it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Oh, I love this, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
I hope our listeners reach outto you for consultations and I
hope that soon we see somethingin regards to training so that
we can all go take this trainingfrom you.
We can all benefit fromtraining, even when we think
like we don't work with thatpopulation like you do.
(37:47):
You're just not asking theright questions.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And you're going to.
They're going to show up.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, they will show up.
So thank you for all of youlisteners.
Just know that we will includeall of this information in our
podcast.
Please reach out to her andlook out.
Her trainings are coming.
They're hot out of the press.
You need that.
That's all I have to say.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yes, Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me Untilnext time.
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