April 10, 2025 • 37 mins
What happens when the professional world of mental health meets the personal journey of neurodivergence? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Robert Jason Grant, who shares his profound experience of being diagnosed with sensory processing disorder as an adult. Dr. Grant opens up about the internalized ableism he faced and the role the autistic community played in his journey towards acceptance. We explore the often conditional acceptance of diversity in professional settings and the pressures neurodivergent professionals experience to conceal parts of their identity. This episode shines a light on the intricate dance between personal identity and professional life, challenging common misconceptions and advocating for a more inclusive environment.
Creating a supportive community is not just beneficial—it's essential. Dr. Grant and I discuss the importance of authentic allies in neurodiversity advocacy and the impact of sharing resources and experiences among neurodivergent professionals. We also dive into the urgent need for self-care to be integrated into professional licensing, drawing comparisons between U.S. and European workplace policies that either support or hinder well-being. This conversation is a call to action for ongoing advocacy and education to ensure that self-care and neurodiversity are prioritized. Tune in for valuable insights and encouragement as we navigate these pressing issues together.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria Diego (00:03):
Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCaradiego, and today I am joined
by my lovely co-host.
That's me?
Liliana Baylon (00:13):
I think that's me.
We are here with a specialguest.
So before we start and Iintroduce you, we were started
by saying how this idea of thepodcast actually surfaced when
we were in a table in communitywith him.
So, Robert, how would you liketo introduce yourself to all our
(00:33):
listeners?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (00:36):
I'll just introduce myself as Dr Robert
Jason Grant to the listeners.
And, yeah, to the listeners.
And yeah, almost a year ago,right, we were at this business
of therapy training, sitting atthe same table.
Yeah, and this idea manifestedfor you all.
Yeah, and look what you've donewith it.
(00:57):
Congratulations, so cool I waswaiting.
Liliana Baylon (01:03):
everyone who's listening.
I I was waiting for Robert tosay like they will not shut up,
they will not, but thank you sokind.
Yes.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:13):
I think that's awesome and I'm glad to
be here.
Happy to be here.
Liliana Baylon (01:16):
Thank you, I'm going to say, robert, and then
there's like this internaldialogue that is happening in my
mind.
Maria Diego (01:29):
Should I say Dr Robert, all the time?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:30):
should I say no, no, you could just say
Robert's fine, thank you, thankyou.
People call me all kinds ofthings.
They call me Robert, somepeople call me Jason.
Oh, they just go there, whichis totally okay.
I've even some people just gowith uh initials.
They'll just call me RJG andsome people call me Dr Grant.
But my brain answers to all ofthese things equally.
Liliana Baylon (01:52):
For everyone who's listening.
He's a doctor, Give him thecredit.
Okay, he wins.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:59):
Oh, I don't need the credit, it's okay.
Liliana Baylon (02:04):
So what are we going to talk about today,
Robert?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (02:08):
A great topic Really.
We're going to talk aboutneurodivergence, but
specifically beingneurodivergent as a professional
, especially in our field, inour work as mental health
professionals.
But, um, that presentation Iguess, if you will, I'm a mental
(02:32):
health professional or you knowother helping professionals.
This would apply to as well,and I'm also neurodivergent
myself, what that means and whatthat can look like.
You know the benefits, the coolthings about it.
Maybe some of the challengesmay come along with that as well
(02:52):
.
Maria Diego (02:53):
Yeah, I love that.
I think in just my ownexperience with you, like you're
known in the play therapy,realm right For neurodivergence
and trainings and education andbeing such a resource for that.
But I think this is a reallyimportant conversation to have,
as we are either late in lifefinding out or late in life
(03:18):
accepting and owning that partof our identity, and I still
feel like it's that kind oftricky line that we walk right
Of like I'm a professional in ahelping field and also these
parts of me are true too,because I think there's still a
stigma around a diagnosis as aprofessional.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (03:41):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I think when you are at my agewhich I won't reveal then you're
definitely probably latediagnosed like I was as an adult
, because the processes when Iwas a kid were pretty abysmal in
(04:02):
terms and so I didn't reallyunderstand me until I was an
adult and didn't get a officialformal diagnosis that put me in
a neurodivergent category untilI was an adult.
And so so much of this work forme started then and I remember
(04:29):
when I got I have sensoryprocessing disorder plus a few
other um, oddity things in theneurodivergent world, but that's
probably the main one Iidentify with.
And I remember when I got thatdiagnosis as an adult, I didn't
tell anybody, I didn't put thatin my bio, I didn't advertise
(04:52):
that, I didn't even tell familymembers because there was still
sort of this kind of shameassociated with it.
It was a little bit ofinternalized ableism, like I
should keep this to myself, andI think it was a mix of those
beliefs you know that I hadtaken on myself and then also
(05:14):
like, if I say this, will peopleyou know treat me differently?
Will they treat me even likeI'm more weird than I already am
, but not in a good, weird way.
So it was really when let's givecredit to the actual autistics
(05:36):
who really broughtneurodiversity to the forefront,
and when I started discoveringthat, talking about that, that I
started working on this withinmyself to get to a place where
it's like, yeah, I mean, I, thisis my identity and I want to
live this identity.
(05:56):
And it was really listening toso many of them, watching,
watching them, talking to them,reading their works that really
helped me get to this placewhere I could finally I remember
the first time I just even putthat I'm neurodivergent on my
bio felt so strange but so happyat the same time.
(06:17):
So, yeah, there's definitelythis historic context, but then
we still like you mentionedMaria still today.
You know, even though we're somuch stronger as a community, we
can still run into ableism ordiscrimination or just some kind
(06:44):
of weirdness that somebody elseputs on us because, you know,
we are putting our identity outthere.
Liliana Baylon (06:55):
Yeah, I love that Right, and even um.
I just heard Marshall.
Marshall always talks about umand and he was in an early
podcast with us.
But he was talking about, likethe parts that we hide because
they're not welcome.
Or coming from a generationthat told us we have to hide
those parts because they werenot welcome.
And even as you were talking, Ikeep thinking and they're still
(07:17):
not welcome.
They're welcome at aconvenience, they're welcome at
a price.
If I can use you, convenience,they're welcome at a price.
If I can use you, then Iwelcome you.
It sounds so dark when I say itout loud and I give myself
permission to be okay with thisbut yes but it is true is if, if
there's a benefit of me, umable body to use you, I welcome
(07:38):
you and embrace you.
But if they're not, thenthere's shame that comes with,
because how come you cannotbehave, how come you cannot do
this Like in that stereotypicalable?
And I think the scary part forall of us in this field is that
we have the tools to help ourclients but we're very
judgmental with each other.
Is that okay that I name that?
Maria Diego (08:02):
I think it's authentic, lilian, I think
that's been.
I think it's.
I think it's authentic, lillian, I think that that's been your
experience too, in circles.
I mean, we've, we've sharedsimilar experiences in similar
circles.
You know, a couple of thingscame up when you were talking to
Robert, and you know one wasthis reminds me back when you
know we, we weren't allowed tobe open about having our own
(08:23):
mental illness or being onmedications right for ADHD,
depression, anxiety, postpartum,whatever.
This feels similar, in line,and it also seems very much in
line with the conversationaround dynamic disabilities and
invisible illnesses,specifically in play therapy
feeling as though if you can'tphysically get on the floor,
(08:45):
then you can't be a playtherapist.
And I'm wondering if you'reseeing any similarities in our
profession around being aneurodiverse provider.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (08:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, when you both weresharing what you said, I thought
, well, this is diversity workin general, right, you always
have this awareness that comesto the forefront, which is
necessary.
And then you always have thegroup.
Well, you have the group thatdeny it, regardless, they're not
(09:21):
interested.
You know they're always goingto be the haters, regardless,
they're not interested.
You know they're always goingto be the haters.
But then you have this groupthat takes it on as a
performative act, which is kindof what Liliana was talking
about.
And then you have the groupthat actually, like, cares about
diversity and seeks it outbecause they value and it's not
(09:44):
just for a performative piece.
Yeah, so you always kind of runinto these three groups, right,
when you're putting yourself outthere in any form or type of
diversity, and you're, I guess,as prepared as you can be to
experience these three types ofpeople as you run into them.
And I'm not sure how betterthat's going to get, you know,
(10:08):
in society, it seems like Iwould like to believe that it's
going to get better, but then,but it's not gotten better in
thousands of years.
So, you know, you just kind ofalways have this manifestation.
But the good thing is focusingon the people who get it and not
focusing on the other groups.
(10:29):
Right, that's the part thatkeeps us encouraged and keeps us
believing.
Okay, this is so worthwhile.
Even though we encounter thisableism or this performative
person, we know there areauthentic people out there that
are really transformed andreally value what we're bringing
(10:51):
.
And understandingneurodivergence and caring about
it is just like what happenedto me is you are speaking to
another neurodivergent personwho is yet to really fully
realize that about themselvesand you're helping open that
(11:14):
door for them, and I think thatis huge yeah, yeah, I think so
too.
Maria Diego (11:20):
I think you know it goes along with that
marginalized you know populationum experience right, with that
marginalized populationexperience right, that it can be
difficult but it takes just afew really brave, really thick
skinned, with good supportpeople to stand there and go
like this is this is OK.
You, you can be both.
To let other people having thatshared experience go oh, maybe
I can do both.
To let other people having thatshared experience go oh, maybe I
(11:43):
can do both you know I don'thave to be alone in this,
because it can feel very alone,especially if you're surrounded
by the other groups of people,the performative or or the, the
haired, and just being able tofind someone else as an example,
as like that beacon of hope andlight, can be really, really
(12:09):
really important.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (12:16):
Yeah, I would say, you know, on this
topic, it probably is veryhelpful for most neurodivergent
professionals to find communitywith other neurodivergent
professionals.
You know people you know maybein person it could be colleagues
, it could be an online group orgroups but just to get
community with others that arekind of in the same position as
(12:36):
you, because I think that makesa huge difference, because you
are going to encounter thingsthat are not positive.
You're going to run into thisand it helps you to navigate
those things.
It certainly has me when you dohave a good community of fellow
neurodivergent professionalsthat you talk with, interact
(12:59):
with, hang out with, do lifewith, yeah, yeah.
Maria Diego (13:03):
I love that Because I think it's important to share
what's worked right, sharethose resources, share those
support people.
You know, I'm just eventhinking back to Liliana and I
like, when we started sharingour own you know chronic illness
and invisible illnesses, it waslike, hey, did you, do you know
about this particular heatingpad?
(13:23):
Did you know that I have onethat sits in my suitcase and it
always travels with me?
Right, just like those helpfulhints, or like, hey, I was also
in that situation.
This person at this place wasreally helpful in helping me
navigate that system.
Liliana Baylon (13:38):
And so.
Maria Diego (13:38):
I'm hearing some similarities with that and
having that community can bereally helpful because we are
working in larger systems withoverseeing governing bodies that
don't always make it easy forus to navigate when we are other
abled yes, yeah, and thebenefits are pretty numerous.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (14:06):
I mean there's also just the friendship
and the relationship and thefun.
For me, there is just a levelof natural unmasking that can
take place when I'm with afellow neurodivergent friend or
colleague.
That's really nice.
(14:26):
I certainly have neurotypicalfriends and I have some
neurotypical friends I can bepretty much myself with, which
is great.
But there is a level ofunderstanding you know.
Know, when you're with someonewho has just dealt with a lot of
(14:47):
the same things that you haveand navigated life this kind of
same way that you have, that'sjust really you need to have
that in there somewhere in themix of your community, because
it's a different level and it'san important level and I think
it's part of what helps keep yougoing.
(15:07):
When you are in those days ormoments where everything is
heightened because you'reneurodivergent and you really
are feeling how the systemsaren't designed for you and
you've really encountered thatableist behavior from someone,
(15:29):
it just you gotta be able to goto those people who are like
I've been there, I get it, I'velived it, I feel it with you and
that's just a special place tohave.
Liliana Baylon (15:41):
So, as all of you are preparing I'm assuming
I'm making the assumption, for alot of you are preparing to go
to conferences and the PlayTherapy Conference is coming up
right, which is, find yourpeople to help you regularly
co-regulate give me so muchanxiety.
There's so so much stimulation,so much stimulation, and you
(16:04):
are required to participate inorder to be part of and not have
, like you know, missing outsyndrome and to be seen, because
you also go to network and whatwe're suggesting here is look,
you are in your own process, youget to explore and grieve and
(16:26):
accept until you become who youwant to be, how you want to show
up and what parts you'reaccepting.
That's part of the griefprocess for all of us.
And then finding what Robert'susing is finding your own people
to build community, even whenwe go to those events, so that
they can help you co-regulate,help you name a lot of the times
(16:50):
what is happening for you, helpyou co-regulate, help you name
a lot of the times what ishappening for you, help you
advocate for change.
When you two were talking, I waslistening to a book author,
because I'm a bookworm, so Ilike to go to not only read but,
like I follow them.
That sounds like stalking, butI go to a fence where they're
presenting their material.
I'm a fangirl and it's okay, buthe was saying that he was
(17:13):
hopeful for the new generationand that brought me hope.
So I want to name that, he says, the new generation.
We tend to dismiss them becausethey're bringing all these new
ideas and acceptance and it's usadults who are rejecting it
because we are regressing to oldpatterns of systems of
(17:34):
expectations.
So he said we have to bepatient because it's this new
cohort who's going to come andchange things Right, and that
gave me hope.
That not just the idea from,like the queer community who
came and introduced us topronouns, I get to ask you, from
(17:55):
, uh, diversity, from anethnicity, uh point of view,
which is saying we are here, um,and we don't want to deny this
part anymore, yeah, um, theneurodiversity, which is like I
went too fast and with my accent, I was like, oh, got it.
But the version of thecommunity which is also saying
(18:17):
we are here and these are thethings that we need and we need
that Right.
So what is it that we need todo as presenters to be in
community with the participantswho are taking in?
How are we informing them andempowering them to advocate for
themselves?
And then, when we haveprivileges, which the three of
(18:39):
us have.
How are we advocating for thesechanges in the system that we
are in Right Like?
What else can we do to help thenew cohort that is coming in
not have a hard time like we did?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (18:55):
yeah, I mean, that's what we would hope
for, right, that it keepsgrowing and it keeps getting
better, yeah, and it keeps goingthe right direction.
And I think for neurodivergentpeople, there's always, there's
(19:20):
always this place of strongawareness of yourself in terms
of your system, like I think youguys have talked about this
before because it was created bya person with chronic illness.
But spirit theory, you know andlike.
So how much you know, how can Igive in this moment, in this
(19:45):
space, and how many spoons do Ihave?
And that's something thatneurodivergent people really
have to be aware of, because oursystem can get bombarded and
just turn us into a place wherewe're in a type of burnout but
we really cannot manifest, eventhough our cognitive brain, our
intellect, says we know weshould be doing this, we cannot
(20:09):
actually do it.
And I think about that.
I was just in a conversationwith somebody about this, about
advocacy, because advocacy takesa lot of spoons, and so I am
(20:36):
always in this place of tryingto figure out you know where and
how, when, balancing it, withnot bottoming myself out right
with the spoons and I think,sometimes the relentless and
repetitive like I have said, thesame thing in the same way,
maybe even to the same group ofpeople or the same system.
And I mean I just my spoons aregone just from sometimes that
process and trying to advocatefor change, but I'm not going to
(21:02):
stop.
It's just, you know, it's anawareness and I say that to not
just myself but anybodylistening who's neurodivergent,
who's trying to maybe moveforward in educating people,
increasing awareness, increasingacceptance that don't forget to
(21:23):
take care of yourself, becausethat's a real part of this and
you don't want to get to a placewhere Now you can't do anything
and it can happen easily.
The Adult world, some Moreautonomy, which is nice, I
(21:48):
always think about her or neuroneural divergent kids, who
really rarely get any autonomyand are just put into
environments where their systemis bombarded in a non-friendly
way in terms of their neuraldivergence and how hard it is.
That's why so many of them getdysregulated.
That's why you do that, becauseknow they can only take so much
(22:11):
and the system can take so much, and it's just a reality for us
as neurodivergent people untilwe get systems, especially big
systems, that we can walk intoand it's like, wow, this isn't
taking anything from me, youknow, I can just kind of be here
(22:32):
.
We're not there yet, and so itis important for you know
neurodiversity, affirming carefor you yourself, the
neurodivergent person, would beto recognize that and what it
looks like for you.
Do what you can.
Don't feel bad about what youcan't do, right, because you're
(22:56):
in the long race here, not theshort sprint.
Right, we need you in the gamefor the next several years, not
just this month or this week.
Maria Diego (23:10):
No, I love that, I do, and you know I.
I think you know something thatLilliana and I have talked
about a couple of times withsome of our guests is just this
disconnect.
You know, we're in a fieldwhere, like, all parts are
welcome.
We're in a field of like, youknow, set those boundaries for
yourself, and then then there'sthis disconnect for us doing
that for our clients, then toprofessional regulatory boards
(23:35):
and organizations doing that forus professionals.
We don't get that samereciprocity, leaving us in this
weird limbo system, right whenwe're pouring out our cup but
our cup's not being refilled bythose, by those other systems.
Would you say that you're alsoseeing that?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (23:54):
I've always saw that and I've always
thought that we were way toomedical model focused.
I think even then, I think evendoc, I think people in the
medical field are too medicalmodel focused.
Maria Diego (24:09):
Yes, and.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (24:12):
I've always had this thought in my head.
That pops up especially whenI'm renewing a license or
something.
There's a requirement for anethics class, there's a
requirement for a suicide course, which are all very important.
Absolutely I don't mind that.
But I always think, you know,one day, one day I'm'm gonna be
very happy because I'm gonna seethere's a requirement for a
(24:34):
self-care course.
That just what you were saying,that the organization, the
board, has put out we recognizeit's important that you're
taking care of yourself, andjust by even requiring a
training to redo iscommunicating that message.
Liliana Baylon (24:54):
maybe, maybe we'll see that one day we will
copy our friends in europe likewe have this right, but in
europe, think about how manycountries.
They said after five you willno longer be, uh, contacting um
your employees and if you do,we're gonna find you and we're
(25:15):
gonna give you this time offbecause you are required to go
and recharge and in that time,yes you will not check email
from work like it's policiesthat they have yes, and I'm like
please, same as everyone else,I have considered moving again.
That is healthy versus me, thatI'm in a power of a space of
(25:38):
supervising others.
I'm realizing that they'reworking in systems where there
are being abused.
If you're working towardslicensure, they dictate how many
clients, they dictate your timeoff, they tell you when to
answer the phone, they tell youthose are the things and I'm
like this is not okay.
And then we also move into theidea of when.
(26:00):
When we say like self-care, Iwas like what does that mean?
Cause in Colorado we do have tofill up a form for self-care.
I mean, it looks so nice.
Maria Diego (26:11):
Oh, I did not know this do I follow it right, but
at least the system is saying wewant you to be aware of that,
which is a step forward.
I mean, new mexico certainlydoes not have that.
My other credentialing boardsdon't have that as a requirement
(26:33):
.
Hold on.
Liliana Baylon (26:34):
But even when you said ethics and I was like,
okay, I'll bite.
What kind of ethics?
Because ethics is such a bigword everyone used.
And I was like, well, is itclinical ethics?
Is it self-care ethics?
Is it private practice ethics?
Is it diversity?
Like what kind of ethics?
So now, when anyone calls meand says, can you do ethics,
I'll be like what kind of you're?
Maria Diego (26:56):
so limited to?
Yeah, well, I will.
I will say I mean, I know, Iknow some regulatory boards that
we are all a part of, right,like neurodiversity is
considered like it does completelike the cultural subset of
requirements, so that's, I feellike a step in the right
direction.
Then they put us all in onebucket.
(27:17):
They do, they do.
But I'm thinking like, so it's,it's fall when we're recording
this.
Okay, we're getting ready to go.
Um, take my kids to the littlepumpkin patch corn maze thing
that happens in our town.
They will provide, if you needit, this and, like Meow Wolf up
(27:37):
in Albuquerque, they have like asensory bag that you can borrow
, that has like fidgets andearplugs and like dark
sunglasses that you can borrowfor your experience there to
help.
It's just an offering, right tohelp regulate and acknowledge
that you may have a differentneed.
What's it going to take for usto get that at professional
(27:59):
conferences?
Liliana Baylon (28:01):
And.
I was like am I going to getheadphones?
Because for me sound, by theway, it's just too much for me.
I get so dysregulated.
Um, and it will be lovely,right?
I just want you to know.
Uh, robert and maria in here,like my kids, not only they play
soccer, but we are seasonholders.
Do not call me up for tickets,we're season holders for the
(28:23):
rapids.
They actually have an area umfor um, if you have sensory
issues, like to go in there.
But guess what's happening now?
Kids are going in and playingthere, so I cannot use.
Yes, the public is not educatedin regards to who needs it.
Um, so there's more entitiestrying to do good things.
(28:44):
It's also being misused becausethere's not a lot of education
for the public, but conferences,mental health conferences.
For me, it's like how comeyou're not thinking of this?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (28:55):
Yeah, it is interesting to see, like, what
the changes in the growth lookslike.
Right To be around long enoughto have a perspective.
And I do appreciate all all thethings I run into because at
(29:16):
least I know like nothing washappening when I was a kid.
Liliana Baylon (29:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (29:23):
But I also recognize that some of it isn't
quite being done right.
And I guess in my head I thinkof well, you know it's.
I said this to Marshall once,marshall Louse, who you
referenced earlier.
I'm like you knowneurodiversity, the paradigm,
(29:45):
the movement.
It's sort of like if you werein the ocean by the Titanic and
if you ever had this experiencewhen you're swimming in water
you can't touch the ground.
It's sort of like you've gotyour hands up against the
Titanic and you're trying topush it while you're swimming
and you're trying to push itwhile you're swimming.
(30:05):
Like it's very challenging toget solid in place, change done,
but it does happen.
It just happens very slowly interms of, I think, what we want
to see, to see, and then it justspeaks more to why we're
(30:31):
talking about this right now andwhy we're doing what we're
doing, because it's so importantthat this keeps happening and
it keeps being done better,right, and I've seen that grow a
lot, but's no way.
But I don't want to besatisfied, right, I don't want
to be satisfied just with growsor something that's sort of like
(30:56):
an approximate of what we'regoing for.
So we keep advocating andworking and talking about it,
doing what you guys did.
I mean, one of the things Iloved about your podcast when I
went and looked at it, was howmuch time that you're devoting
to diversity needs and I'm likethat's great.
(31:19):
I mean, we just need more ofthis because it is so vast and
wide, even neural divergence.
I mean I couldn't sit here andrepresent all neural divergence
right there's just this, thiscommitment, the cultural
humility philosophy, right.
Maria Diego (31:37):
There's just this commitment to never stop
learning and I love that becauseI think that that and reject it
(32:01):
Right.
That's when we get stuck inthese systems that are broken
and don't work and it's like,well, it's, it's always been
this way or whatever.
The old adage is yeah, but I do, I think.
I think that's part of theprocess and and and thank you.
I mean that's part and point,like the whole point of this
podcast was Liliana and I werelike having these conversations
(32:22):
with people going.
More people need to hear this,more people need to know that
they're not alone in this.
More people we need.
This needs to be a louderconversation, not that we have,
you know, a following that'sgoing to, like, you know, march,
the Capitol Hill or anything.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (32:37):
You never know, you never know.
Maria Diego (32:40):
We got to start somewhere Right, and so I really
I do, I really appreciate that,and I know we're probably
getting ready to wrap up becauseLiliana is making that face at
me.
So before we, before we walkaway, do you have like a top,
like tip or like self-caremoment for someone who might be
listening, going like this thisis, this is hard to navigate
(33:03):
these systems.
Being a neurodivergent provider.
You said get a, find acommunity.
What's maybe one other thingthat they could do or that you
have found helpful?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (33:15):
I would say you know, seek out, try to
create, work toward, put thetime into to get autonomy
Because I think autonomy is aneurodivergent adult's best
friend.
And don't feel guilty for that,don't feel like it's frivolous
(33:39):
If you don't have it already.
Find the places where you canget it, because I think the more
autonomy you can have, it justmakes it so much easier than to
take care of yourself and to bein a good spoon place to be
fully activated when you'reactivated and it just helps you
(34:04):
create that kind of balance thatyou need as you go from day to
day, week to week.
That's going to be easier orharder for different people.
I think your task is just tofind what you can right now in
terms of really striving for.
Where can I and how can Ibecome more autonomous?
And remember the value youbring.
(34:27):
You know there is a benefit ofbeing a neurodivergent mental
health professional in workingwith neurodivergent clients.
There's a value there.
We have people call our clinicall the time seeking a
neurodiversity affirming and afellow neurodivergent therapist,
and so also just remember thevalue that you bring.
(34:50):
Yeah.
Liliana Baylon (34:52):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's been to all thediversity groups that we're
trying to get here right, whichis we exist, we exist, we're out
there.
Come so that you don't have todescribe, so that you don't have
to explain.
So it's a natural conversation,not only because of what we
know as professionals, butbecause of the shared experience
(35:15):
.
Maria Diego (35:17):
Well, claim our diversity as our superpower
right, like that's what I'mhearing from you, is like it can
be your superpower If we reallylearn to understand it and
embrace it and lean into it yeah, let's do that yeah absolutely
thank you, robert.
Liliana Baylon (35:34):
I'm hoping that you come back.
I'm hoping that we didn't scareyou yeah did you come back and
talk more, because we needvoices like yours in order to
say there, there's so manytopics that we can cover and
there's space for you as anarrative of what does it mean,
and, and, and that you don'thave to go hide yes, listen,
(35:57):
I'll be happy to come backanytime thank you to our
listeners.
Uh, we'll see you next time.
Till next time, bye, guys.
Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCaradiego, and today I am joined
by my lovely co-host.
That's me?
Liliana Baylon (00:13):
I think that's me.
We are here with a specialguest.
So before we start and Iintroduce you, we were started
by saying how this idea of thepodcast actually surfaced when
we were in a table in communitywith him.
So, Robert, how would you liketo introduce yourself to all our
(00:33):
listeners?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (00:36):
I'll just introduce myself as Dr Robert
Jason Grant to the listeners.
And, yeah, to the listeners.
And yeah, almost a year ago,right, we were at this business
of therapy training, sitting atthe same table.
Yeah, and this idea manifestedfor you all.
Yeah, and look what you've donewith it.
(00:57):
Congratulations, so cool I waswaiting.
Liliana Baylon (01:03):
everyone who's listening.
I I was waiting for Robert tosay like they will not shut up,
they will not, but thank you sokind.
Yes.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:13):
I think that's awesome and I'm glad to
be here.
Happy to be here.
Liliana Baylon (01:16):
Thank you, I'm going to say, robert, and then
there's like this internaldialogue that is happening in my
mind.
Maria Diego (01:29):
Should I say Dr Robert, all the time?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:30):
should I say no, no, you could just say
Robert's fine, thank you, thankyou.
People call me all kinds ofthings.
They call me Robert, somepeople call me Jason.
Oh, they just go there, whichis totally okay.
I've even some people just gowith uh initials.
They'll just call me RJG andsome people call me Dr Grant.
But my brain answers to all ofthese things equally.
Liliana Baylon (01:52):
For everyone who's listening.
He's a doctor, Give him thecredit.
Okay, he wins.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (01:59):
Oh, I don't need the credit, it's okay.
Liliana Baylon (02:04):
So what are we going to talk about today,
Robert?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (02:08):
A great topic Really.
We're going to talk aboutneurodivergence, but
specifically beingneurodivergent as a professional
, especially in our field, inour work as mental health
professionals.
But, um, that presentation Iguess, if you will, I'm a mental
(02:32):
health professional or you knowother helping professionals.
This would apply to as well,and I'm also neurodivergent
myself, what that means and whatthat can look like.
You know the benefits, the coolthings about it.
Maybe some of the challengesmay come along with that as well
(02:52):
.
Maria Diego (02:53):
Yeah, I love that.
I think in just my ownexperience with you, like you're
known in the play therapy,realm right For neurodivergence
and trainings and education andbeing such a resource for that.
But I think this is a reallyimportant conversation to have,
as we are either late in lifefinding out or late in life
(03:18):
accepting and owning that partof our identity, and I still
feel like it's that kind oftricky line that we walk right
Of like I'm a professional in ahelping field and also these
parts of me are true too,because I think there's still a
stigma around a diagnosis as aprofessional.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (03:41):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I think when you are at my agewhich I won't reveal then you're
definitely probably latediagnosed like I was as an adult
, because the processes when Iwas a kid were pretty abysmal in
(04:02):
terms and so I didn't reallyunderstand me until I was an
adult and didn't get a officialformal diagnosis that put me in
a neurodivergent category untilI was an adult.
And so so much of this work forme started then and I remember
(04:29):
when I got I have sensoryprocessing disorder plus a few
other um, oddity things in theneurodivergent world, but that's
probably the main one Iidentify with.
And I remember when I got thatdiagnosis as an adult, I didn't
tell anybody, I didn't put thatin my bio, I didn't advertise
(04:52):
that, I didn't even tell familymembers because there was still
sort of this kind of shameassociated with it.
It was a little bit ofinternalized ableism, like I
should keep this to myself, andI think it was a mix of those
beliefs you know that I hadtaken on myself and then also
(05:14):
like, if I say this, will peopleyou know treat me differently?
Will they treat me even likeI'm more weird than I already am
, but not in a good, weird way.
So it was really when let's givecredit to the actual autistics
(05:36):
who really broughtneurodiversity to the forefront,
and when I started discoveringthat, talking about that, that I
started working on this withinmyself to get to a place where
it's like, yeah, I mean, I, thisis my identity and I want to
live this identity.
(05:56):
And it was really listening toso many of them, watching,
watching them, talking to them,reading their works that really
helped me get to this placewhere I could finally I remember
the first time I just even putthat I'm neurodivergent on my
bio felt so strange but so happyat the same time.
(06:17):
So, yeah, there's definitelythis historic context, but then
we still like you mentionedMaria still today.
You know, even though we're somuch stronger as a community, we
can still run into ableism ordiscrimination or just some kind
(06:44):
of weirdness that somebody elseputs on us because, you know,
we are putting our identity outthere.
Liliana Baylon (06:55):
Yeah, I love that Right, and even um.
I just heard Marshall.
Marshall always talks about umand and he was in an early
podcast with us.
But he was talking about, likethe parts that we hide because
they're not welcome.
Or coming from a generationthat told us we have to hide
those parts because they werenot welcome.
And even as you were talking, Ikeep thinking and they're still
(07:17):
not welcome.
They're welcome at aconvenience, they're welcome at
a price.
If I can use you, convenience,they're welcome at a price.
If I can use you, then Iwelcome you.
It sounds so dark when I say itout loud and I give myself
permission to be okay with thisbut yes but it is true is if, if
there's a benefit of me, umable body to use you, I welcome
(07:38):
you and embrace you.
But if they're not, thenthere's shame that comes with,
because how come you cannotbehave, how come you cannot do
this Like in that stereotypicalable?
And I think the scary part forall of us in this field is that
we have the tools to help ourclients but we're very
judgmental with each other.
Is that okay that I name that?
Maria Diego (08:02):
I think it's authentic, lilian, I think
that's been.
I think it's.
I think it's authentic, lillian, I think that that's been your
experience too, in circles.
I mean, we've, we've sharedsimilar experiences in similar
circles.
You know, a couple of thingscame up when you were talking to
Robert, and you know one wasthis reminds me back when you
know we, we weren't allowed tobe open about having our own
(08:23):
mental illness or being onmedications right for ADHD,
depression, anxiety, postpartum,whatever.
This feels similar, in line,and it also seems very much in
line with the conversationaround dynamic disabilities and
invisible illnesses,specifically in play therapy
feeling as though if you can'tphysically get on the floor,
(08:45):
then you can't be a playtherapist.
And I'm wondering if you'reseeing any similarities in our
profession around being aneurodiverse provider.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (08:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, when you both weresharing what you said, I thought
, well, this is diversity workin general, right, you always
have this awareness that comesto the forefront, which is
necessary.
And then you always have thegroup.
Well, you have the group thatdeny it, regardless, they're not
(09:21):
interested.
You know they're always goingto be the haters, regardless,
they're not interested.
You know they're always goingto be the haters.
But then you have this groupthat takes it on as a
performative act, which is kindof what Liliana was talking
about.
And then you have the groupthat actually, like, cares about
diversity and seeks it outbecause they value and it's not
(09:44):
just for a performative piece.
Yeah, so you always kind of runinto these three groups, right,
when you're putting yourself outthere in any form or type of
diversity, and you're, I guess,as prepared as you can be to
experience these three types ofpeople as you run into them.
And I'm not sure how betterthat's going to get, you know,
(10:08):
in society, it seems like Iwould like to believe that it's
going to get better, but then,but it's not gotten better in
thousands of years.
So, you know, you just kind ofalways have this manifestation.
But the good thing is focusingon the people who get it and not
focusing on the other groups.
(10:29):
Right, that's the part thatkeeps us encouraged and keeps us
believing.
Okay, this is so worthwhile.
Even though we encounter thisableism or this performative
person, we know there areauthentic people out there that
are really transformed andreally value what we're bringing
(10:51):
.
And understandingneurodivergence and caring about
it is just like what happenedto me is you are speaking to
another neurodivergent personwho is yet to really fully
realize that about themselvesand you're helping open that
(11:14):
door for them, and I think thatis huge yeah, yeah, I think so
too.
Maria Diego (11:20):
I think you know it goes along with that
marginalized you know populationum experience right, with that
marginalized populationexperience right, that it can be
difficult but it takes just afew really brave, really thick
skinned, with good supportpeople to stand there and go
like this is this is OK.
You, you can be both.
To let other people having thatshared experience go oh, maybe
I can do both.
To let other people having thatshared experience go oh, maybe I
(11:43):
can do both you know I don'thave to be alone in this,
because it can feel very alone,especially if you're surrounded
by the other groups of people,the performative or or the, the
haired, and just being able tofind someone else as an example,
as like that beacon of hope andlight, can be really, really
(12:09):
really important.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (12:16):
Yeah, I would say, you know, on this
topic, it probably is veryhelpful for most neurodivergent
professionals to find communitywith other neurodivergent
professionals.
You know people you know maybein person it could be colleagues
, it could be an online group orgroups but just to get
community with others that arekind of in the same position as
(12:36):
you, because I think that makesa huge difference, because you
are going to encounter thingsthat are not positive.
You're going to run into thisand it helps you to navigate
those things.
It certainly has me when you dohave a good community of fellow
neurodivergent professionalsthat you talk with, interact
(12:59):
with, hang out with, do lifewith, yeah, yeah.
Maria Diego (13:03):
I love that Because I think it's important to share
what's worked right, sharethose resources, share those
support people.
You know, I'm just eventhinking back to Liliana and I
like, when we started sharingour own you know chronic illness
and invisible illnesses, it waslike, hey, did you, do you know
about this particular heatingpad?
(13:23):
Did you know that I have onethat sits in my suitcase and it
always travels with me?
Right, just like those helpfulhints, or like, hey, I was also
in that situation.
This person at this place wasreally helpful in helping me
navigate that system.
Liliana Baylon (13:38):
And so.
Maria Diego (13:38):
I'm hearing some similarities with that and
having that community can bereally helpful because we are
working in larger systems withoverseeing governing bodies that
don't always make it easy forus to navigate when we are other
abled yes, yeah, and thebenefits are pretty numerous.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (14:06):
I mean there's also just the friendship
and the relationship and thefun.
For me, there is just a levelof natural unmasking that can
take place when I'm with afellow neurodivergent friend or
colleague.
That's really nice.
(14:26):
I certainly have neurotypicalfriends and I have some
neurotypical friends I can bepretty much myself with, which
is great.
But there is a level ofunderstanding you know.
Know, when you're with someonewho has just dealt with a lot of
(14:47):
the same things that you haveand navigated life this kind of
same way that you have, that'sjust really you need to have
that in there somewhere in themix of your community, because
it's a different level and it'san important level and I think
it's part of what helps keep yougoing.
(15:07):
When you are in those days ormoments where everything is
heightened because you'reneurodivergent and you really
are feeling how the systemsaren't designed for you and
you've really encountered thatableist behavior from someone,
(15:29):
it just you gotta be able to goto those people who are like
I've been there, I get it, I'velived it, I feel it with you and
that's just a special place tohave.
Liliana Baylon (15:41):
So, as all of you are preparing I'm assuming
I'm making the assumption, for alot of you are preparing to go
to conferences and the PlayTherapy Conference is coming up
right, which is, find yourpeople to help you regularly
co-regulate give me so muchanxiety.
There's so so much stimulation,so much stimulation, and you
(16:04):
are required to participate inorder to be part of and not have
, like you know, missing outsyndrome and to be seen, because
you also go to network and whatwe're suggesting here is look,
you are in your own process, youget to explore and grieve and
(16:26):
accept until you become who youwant to be, how you want to show
up and what parts you'reaccepting.
That's part of the griefprocess for all of us.
And then finding what Robert'susing is finding your own people
to build community, even whenwe go to those events, so that
they can help you co-regulate,help you name a lot of the times
(16:50):
what is happening for you, helpyou co-regulate, help you name
a lot of the times what ishappening for you, help you
advocate for change.
When you two were talking, I waslistening to a book author,
because I'm a bookworm, so Ilike to go to not only read but,
like I follow them.
That sounds like stalking, butI go to a fence where they're
presenting their material.
I'm a fangirl and it's okay, buthe was saying that he was
(17:13):
hopeful for the new generationand that brought me hope.
So I want to name that, he says, the new generation.
We tend to dismiss them becausethey're bringing all these new
ideas and acceptance and it's usadults who are rejecting it
because we are regressing to oldpatterns of systems of
(17:34):
expectations.
So he said we have to bepatient because it's this new
cohort who's going to come andchange things Right, and that
gave me hope.
That not just the idea from,like the queer community who
came and introduced us topronouns, I get to ask you, from
(17:55):
, uh, diversity, from anethnicity, uh point of view,
which is saying we are here, um,and we don't want to deny this
part anymore, yeah, um, theneurodiversity, which is like I
went too fast and with my accent, I was like, oh, got it.
But the version of thecommunity which is also saying
(18:17):
we are here and these are thethings that we need and we need
that Right.
So what is it that we need todo as presenters to be in
community with the participantswho are taking in?
How are we informing them andempowering them to advocate for
themselves?
And then, when we haveprivileges, which the three of
(18:39):
us have.
How are we advocating for thesechanges in the system that we
are in Right Like?
What else can we do to help thenew cohort that is coming in
not have a hard time like we did?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (18:55):
yeah, I mean, that's what we would hope
for, right, that it keepsgrowing and it keeps getting
better, yeah, and it keeps goingthe right direction.
And I think for neurodivergentpeople, there's always, there's
(19:20):
always this place of strongawareness of yourself in terms
of your system, like I think youguys have talked about this
before because it was created bya person with chronic illness.
But spirit theory, you know andlike.
So how much you know, how can Igive in this moment, in this
(19:45):
space, and how many spoons do Ihave?
And that's something thatneurodivergent people really
have to be aware of, because oursystem can get bombarded and
just turn us into a place wherewe're in a type of burnout but
we really cannot manifest, eventhough our cognitive brain, our
intellect, says we know weshould be doing this, we cannot
(20:09):
actually do it.
And I think about that.
I was just in a conversationwith somebody about this, about
advocacy, because advocacy takesa lot of spoons, and so I am
(20:36):
always in this place of tryingto figure out you know where and
how, when, balancing it, withnot bottoming myself out right
with the spoons and I think,sometimes the relentless and
repetitive like I have said, thesame thing in the same way,
maybe even to the same group ofpeople or the same system.
And I mean I just my spoons aregone just from sometimes that
process and trying to advocatefor change, but I'm not going to
(21:02):
stop.
It's just, you know, it's anawareness and I say that to not
just myself but anybodylistening who's neurodivergent,
who's trying to maybe moveforward in educating people,
increasing awareness, increasingacceptance that don't forget to
(21:23):
take care of yourself, becausethat's a real part of this and
you don't want to get to a placewhere Now you can't do anything
and it can happen easily.
The Adult world, some Moreautonomy, which is nice, I
(21:48):
always think about her or neuroneural divergent kids, who
really rarely get any autonomyand are just put into
environments where their systemis bombarded in a non-friendly
way in terms of their neuraldivergence and how hard it is.
That's why so many of them getdysregulated.
That's why you do that, becauseknow they can only take so much
(22:11):
and the system can take so much, and it's just a reality for us
as neurodivergent people untilwe get systems, especially big
systems, that we can walk intoand it's like, wow, this isn't
taking anything from me, youknow, I can just kind of be here
(22:32):
.
We're not there yet, and so itis important for you know
neurodiversity, affirming carefor you yourself, the
neurodivergent person, would beto recognize that and what it
looks like for you.
Do what you can.
Don't feel bad about what youcan't do, right, because you're
(22:56):
in the long race here, not theshort sprint.
Right, we need you in the gamefor the next several years, not
just this month or this week.
Maria Diego (23:10):
No, I love that, I do, and you know I.
I think you know something thatLilliana and I have talked
about a couple of times withsome of our guests is just this
disconnect.
You know, we're in a fieldwhere, like, all parts are
welcome.
We're in a field of like, youknow, set those boundaries for
yourself, and then then there'sthis disconnect for us doing
that for our clients, then toprofessional regulatory boards
(23:35):
and organizations doing that forus professionals.
We don't get that samereciprocity, leaving us in this
weird limbo system, right whenwe're pouring out our cup but
our cup's not being refilled bythose, by those other systems.
Would you say that you're alsoseeing that?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (23:54):
I've always saw that and I've always
thought that we were way toomedical model focused.
I think even then, I think evendoc, I think people in the
medical field are too medicalmodel focused.
Maria Diego (24:09):
Yes, and.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (24:12):
I've always had this thought in my head.
That pops up especially whenI'm renewing a license or
something.
There's a requirement for anethics class, there's a
requirement for a suicide course, which are all very important.
Absolutely I don't mind that.
But I always think, you know,one day, one day I'm'm gonna be
very happy because I'm gonna seethere's a requirement for a
(24:34):
self-care course.
That just what you were saying,that the organization, the
board, has put out we recognizeit's important that you're
taking care of yourself, andjust by even requiring a
training to redo iscommunicating that message.
Liliana Baylon (24:54):
maybe, maybe we'll see that one day we will
copy our friends in europe likewe have this right, but in
europe, think about how manycountries.
They said after five you willno longer be, uh, contacting um
your employees and if you do,we're gonna find you and we're
(25:15):
gonna give you this time offbecause you are required to go
and recharge and in that time,yes you will not check email
from work like it's policiesthat they have yes, and I'm like
please, same as everyone else,I have considered moving again.
That is healthy versus me, thatI'm in a power of a space of
(25:38):
supervising others.
I'm realizing that they'reworking in systems where there
are being abused.
If you're working towardslicensure, they dictate how many
clients, they dictate your timeoff, they tell you when to
answer the phone, they tell youthose are the things and I'm
like this is not okay.
And then we also move into theidea of when.
(26:00):
When we say like self-care, Iwas like what does that mean?
Cause in Colorado we do have tofill up a form for self-care.
I mean, it looks so nice.
Maria Diego (26:11):
Oh, I did not know this do I follow it right, but
at least the system is saying wewant you to be aware of that,
which is a step forward.
I mean, new mexico certainlydoes not have that.
My other credentialing boardsdon't have that as a requirement
(26:33):
.
Hold on.
Liliana Baylon (26:34):
But even when you said ethics and I was like,
okay, I'll bite.
What kind of ethics?
Because ethics is such a bigword everyone used.
And I was like, well, is itclinical ethics?
Is it self-care ethics?
Is it private practice ethics?
Is it diversity?
Like what kind of ethics?
So now, when anyone calls meand says, can you do ethics,
I'll be like what kind of you're?
Maria Diego (26:56):
so limited to?
Yeah, well, I will.
I will say I mean, I know, Iknow some regulatory boards that
we are all a part of, right,like neurodiversity is
considered like it does completelike the cultural subset of
requirements, so that's, I feellike a step in the right
direction.
Then they put us all in onebucket.
(27:17):
They do, they do.
But I'm thinking like, so it's,it's fall when we're recording
this.
Okay, we're getting ready to go.
Um, take my kids to the littlepumpkin patch corn maze thing
that happens in our town.
They will provide, if you needit, this and, like Meow Wolf up
(27:37):
in Albuquerque, they have like asensory bag that you can borrow
, that has like fidgets andearplugs and like dark
sunglasses that you can borrowfor your experience there to
help.
It's just an offering, right tohelp regulate and acknowledge
that you may have a differentneed.
What's it going to take for usto get that at professional
(27:59):
conferences?
Liliana Baylon (28:01):
And.
I was like am I going to getheadphones?
Because for me sound, by theway, it's just too much for me.
I get so dysregulated.
Um, and it will be lovely,right?
I just want you to know.
Uh, robert and maria in here,like my kids, not only they play
soccer, but we are seasonholders.
Do not call me up for tickets,we're season holders for the
(28:23):
rapids.
They actually have an area umfor um, if you have sensory
issues, like to go in there.
But guess what's happening now?
Kids are going in and playingthere, so I cannot use.
Yes, the public is not educatedin regards to who needs it.
Um, so there's more entitiestrying to do good things.
(28:44):
It's also being misused becausethere's not a lot of education
for the public, but conferences,mental health conferences.
For me, it's like how comeyou're not thinking of this?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (28:55):
Yeah, it is interesting to see, like, what
the changes in the growth lookslike.
Right To be around long enoughto have a perspective.
And I do appreciate all all thethings I run into because at
(29:16):
least I know like nothing washappening when I was a kid.
Liliana Baylon (29:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (29:23):
But I also recognize that some of it isn't
quite being done right.
And I guess in my head I thinkof well, you know it's.
I said this to Marshall once,marshall Louse, who you
referenced earlier.
I'm like you knowneurodiversity, the paradigm,
(29:45):
the movement.
It's sort of like if you werein the ocean by the Titanic and
if you ever had this experiencewhen you're swimming in water
you can't touch the ground.
It's sort of like you've gotyour hands up against the
Titanic and you're trying topush it while you're swimming
and you're trying to push itwhile you're swimming.
(30:05):
Like it's very challenging toget solid in place, change done,
but it does happen.
It just happens very slowly interms of, I think, what we want
to see, to see, and then it justspeaks more to why we're
(30:31):
talking about this right now andwhy we're doing what we're
doing, because it's so importantthat this keeps happening and
it keeps being done better,right, and I've seen that grow a
lot, but's no way.
But I don't want to besatisfied, right, I don't want
to be satisfied just with growsor something that's sort of like
(30:56):
an approximate of what we'regoing for.
So we keep advocating andworking and talking about it,
doing what you guys did.
I mean, one of the things Iloved about your podcast when I
went and looked at it, was howmuch time that you're devoting
to diversity needs and I'm likethat's great.
(31:19):
I mean, we just need more ofthis because it is so vast and
wide, even neural divergence.
I mean I couldn't sit here andrepresent all neural divergence
right there's just this, thiscommitment, the cultural
humility philosophy, right.
Maria Diego (31:37):
There's just this commitment to never stop
learning and I love that becauseI think that that and reject it
(32:01):
Right.
That's when we get stuck inthese systems that are broken
and don't work and it's like,well, it's, it's always been
this way or whatever.
The old adage is yeah, but I do, I think.
I think that's part of theprocess and and and thank you.
I mean that's part and point,like the whole point of this
podcast was Liliana and I werelike having these conversations
(32:22):
with people going.
More people need to hear this,more people need to know that
they're not alone in this.
More people we need.
This needs to be a louderconversation, not that we have,
you know, a following that'sgoing to, like, you know, march,
the Capitol Hill or anything.
Dr. Robert J. Grant (32:37):
You never know, you never know.
Maria Diego (32:40):
We got to start somewhere Right, and so I really
I do, I really appreciate that,and I know we're probably
getting ready to wrap up becauseLiliana is making that face at
me.
So before we, before we walkaway, do you have like a top,
like tip or like self-caremoment for someone who might be
listening, going like this thisis, this is hard to navigate
(33:03):
these systems.
Being a neurodivergent provider.
You said get a, find acommunity.
What's maybe one other thingthat they could do or that you
have found helpful?
Dr. Robert J. Grant (33:15):
I would say you know, seek out, try to
create, work toward, put thetime into to get autonomy
Because I think autonomy is aneurodivergent adult's best
friend.
And don't feel guilty for that,don't feel like it's frivolous
(33:39):
If you don't have it already.
Find the places where you canget it, because I think the more
autonomy you can have, it justmakes it so much easier than to
take care of yourself and to bein a good spoon place to be
fully activated when you'reactivated and it just helps you
(34:04):
create that kind of balance thatyou need as you go from day to
day, week to week.
That's going to be easier orharder for different people.
I think your task is just tofind what you can right now in
terms of really striving for.
Where can I and how can Ibecome more autonomous?
And remember the value youbring.
(34:27):
You know there is a benefit ofbeing a neurodivergent mental
health professional in workingwith neurodivergent clients.
There's a value there.
We have people call our clinicall the time seeking a
neurodiversity affirming and afellow neurodivergent therapist,
and so also just remember thevalue that you bring.
(34:50):
Yeah.
Liliana Baylon (34:52):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's been to all thediversity groups that we're
trying to get here right, whichis we exist, we exist, we're out
there.
Come so that you don't have todescribe, so that you don't have
to explain.
So it's a natural conversation,not only because of what we
know as professionals, butbecause of the shared experience
(35:15):
.
Maria Diego (35:17):
Well, claim our diversity as our superpower
right, like that's what I'mhearing from you, is like it can
be your superpower If we reallylearn to understand it and
embrace it and lean into it yeah, let's do that yeah absolutely
thank you, robert.
Liliana Baylon (35:34):
I'm hoping that you come back.
I'm hoping that we didn't scareyou yeah did you come back and
talk more, because we needvoices like yours in order to
say there, there's so manytopics that we can cover and
there's space for you as anarrative of what does it mean,
and, and, and that you don'thave to go hide yes, listen,
(35:57):
I'll be happy to come backanytime thank you to our
listeners.
Uh, we'll see you next time.
Till next time, bye, guys.
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