January 23, 2025 • 35 mins
Julie Jacobs, a psychologist turned attorney, offers a treasure trove of insights for mental health providers seeking to navigate the often intimidating world of subpoenas. Ever wondered how to maintain composure when faced with legal documents demanding client information? This episode promises to equip therapists with the knowledge and confidence to tackle these challenges head-on. Julie's unique journey from psychology to law provides a fresh perspective on the intricacies of legal requests, particularly in the post-COVID landscape, where a new wave of therapists is emerging.
Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of subpoenas, distinguishing them from court orders and learning how to approach them with care. Julie underscores the importance of authorization, communication, and documentation while addressing the complexities of handling cases involving minors. She shares practical advice on consulting with legal or insurance professionals, the significance of discussing consent with clients, and the steps to take if a client revokes authorization. With Julie's guidance, therapists will feel empowered to manage the stress associated with subpoenas and make well-informed decisions to protect themselves and their clients.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back listeners to another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCardiego, and I'm joined today
by my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's me.
That's always me.
This is Liliana Valen, and weare here with a special guest.
I love Julie and I lovecollaborating with her.
So this is Julie Jacobs.
Julie, how will you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Julie Jacobs.
Let's see, I usually refer tomyself as a psychologist turned
attorney.
I practiced for about 12 yearsas a psychologist, ended up in a
couple of settings that tend tolead to burnout.
I joined the military afterSeptember 11th and I worked and
was active duty for a few yearsand then I worked at the Citadel
, which is a military collegedown in Charleston, south
(00:50):
Carolina.
I was well burnt out by thenafter about 10 years of that and
so, at 39 years old, decided togo to law school because why
not?
Like it's hard yeah, nothing ishard after working as a
psychologist in the militaryduring a war.
You know, it just kind of putseverything in perspective, um.
(01:11):
So yeah, that's what I went outto, came out to Boulder to go
to CU law, um, and loved it andwill never leave Colorado.
So here I am, uh, working,taking advantage of the
psychology and law background,and I basically work with mental
health providers in Colorado,helping them stay on the
straight and narrow ethics, riskmanagement, practice formation,
(01:34):
things like that, and I'm kindof one step removed from the
clinical work, which is okaywith me.
Right now.
I maintain both of thoselicenses.
I worked real hard for them.
I'm not giving them up, but,yeah, I just have landed in this
really lovely space.
I live in Lyons, so I get tosit in my home office and look
out the window at the birds inthe foothills.
So life is good, in spite ofall of the things that are
(01:57):
happening, and I love what I doand I love being connected to
the mental health providers herein Colorado.
I also work as a riskmanagement consultant for the
Trust, which is a bigprofessional liability insurance
company that works mostly withpsychologists, so I also spend
about 10 hours, 12 hours, a weektalking to psychologists from
all over the country about thesame stuff.
(02:18):
So I've heard some stories forsure.
I bet.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So, for all of you who are listening, when I was
thinking of this episode, Ireached out to Julie one because
I can, two because we worktogether and I was telling her
how we're noticing a new cohortof therapists coming in.
So, for all of you who arethere, after COVID there was a
lot of therapists who retire, alot of therapists who graduated.
(02:44):
There was a lot of therapistswho retire, a lot of therapists
who graduated and they'redealing with things that for
seasoned therapists, like thethree of us who are here, we're
like chill, it's not peekaboo,it's not the boogeyman, like
it's going to be OK.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
So we're going to be talking about subpoenas, so,
julie, tell us a little bit moreabout them.
Subpoenas I like to callsubpoenas a request.
With teeth, it's a recordrequest.
So there's two types ofsubpoenas.
There's either going to be asubpoena to produce a record or
subpoenas to appear and testifyeither at a deposition or at a
hearing, and sometimes you getone for both.
But essentially it's a request,like I said with teeth, it's
(03:30):
not a court order.
Okay, if a court order shows up,you must do what the court
order says or you may go to jail.
You will very rarely get acourt order.
Certainly you won't get a courtorder before you get a subpoena
.
So if you get a subpoena, justknow a subpoena will say scary
things, like you are herebycommanded to, and it will have
(03:55):
Latin on it.
Subpoena juices tecum, so itlooks really official and it'll
have a court caption.
So they look scary.
And if you're not used to thesepieces of paper, the piece of
paper can be scary.
But the thing to remember abouta subpoena is you will always
respond to a subpoena.
You will not always comply witha subpoena.
(04:17):
I like the difference yes, soyou can't ignore it.
And I have people who are likeno, I don't.
I hear this a lot, especiallyfrom seasoned psychologists
who've been doing this for like50 years.
I don't send my records, Idon't disclose my records.
Well, yeah, okay, you ought to,because if you don't then
you're breaking the law.
But you can't just ignore itand get a subpoena.
(04:39):
You can't say, oh, no, I'mgoing to pretend that didn't
happen.
You have to respond in some wayand I'll go with the subpoena
for records first, because thattends to be a lot more common.
So if you get a subpoena forrecords, remember it's a request
, you can't ignore it, but youstill need an authorization from
your client to disclose theinformation.
So, technically, here's a funfact about lawyers they don't
(05:06):
always follow the rules.
What, yes, it's, it's crazy.
Sometimes they're bullies andsometimes they just want to
scare you into doing the thing,and so technically in Colorado
you are required, if you aresending a subpoena for
privileged information andthat's what our records are
they're they're privileged, ourclients hold privilege you are
(05:29):
required to include anauthorization to release that
record.
Now I bet you both have gottenplenty of subpoenas that didn't
include authorizations with them.
Amen, yeah, so every time thathappens they are breaking the
rules.
So if you get a subpoena, firstof all, someone sending you a
(05:49):
subpoena in the mail is notproper service.
Someone emailing you a subpoenais not proper service unless
you have agreed to receive thatby mail or email.
Mail or email Okay.
So sometimes you'll you wouldprefer to get a subpoena in the
email versus some random processserver knocking on your door
handing it to you.
(06:09):
Especially during COVID, wewere all like, oh, no, email me,
that puppy, I don't want you atmy house.
Um, but if you get an email andyou haven't agreed, if you
hadn't signed a waiver ofpersonal service, technically
that subpoena was not properlyserved.
So technically you couldprobably ignore it.
(06:29):
I don't love that without doingsome kind of other step.
So you know, if you get asubpoena and it's not properly
served, you may be able to getaway with ignoring it.
They're probably going to findyou and serve you properly.
So you might want to addressthe situation anyway.
But please remember, don't doanything without authorization.
Okay.
(06:50):
So if you get a subpoena andit's got authorization from your
client to disclose the record,okay, then legally that's all
you need.
Ethically, I would say you wantto talk to your client about the
request, right?
Because to me this is a newinformed consent conversation
(07:11):
right, we think about recorddisclosure as disclosure,
releases of information, hipaa.
But you know, a client doesn'tnecessarily understand and
appreciate what it means toauthorize the disclosure of
their record, right?
Do they even know what's intheir record?
You know, unless they're goingthrough it with you every
session, they don't know whatyou've documented.
(07:32):
And so is it an informeddecision when they signed a
release of information in theirattorney's office to disclose
that information, was thatinformed?
Probably not.
It was probably informed by theattorney saying, hey, sign this
and I'll get.
I would say if it's a currentclient, I would have a
(07:54):
conversation with them from sortof an ethics informed consent
standpoint and say, hey, I gotthis subpoena and you did sign
an authorization to release therecord.
But can we talk about that?
Do you know what's in yourrecord?
Do you remember what we'vetalked about?
Do you want to review ittogether?
Do you have any questions?
Do you recognize that what's inthis record could hurt your
(08:15):
case?
Whatever your case is, and if,if, if your record blows up your
case, that's probably going toblow up our therapy relationship
.
So there's a lot of rippleeffects that people don't think
about and that it's, you know,to be fair to attorneys and I I
talk smack about attorneys allthe time, because I am one um.
It's not their job to doinformed consent, right they're?
(08:35):
Not thinking about that.
Their job is zealous advocacyto win their case, and so when
they're putting the pile ofreleases in front of their
client to have them sign, that'sthem doing their job.
That's not them doing our job,and we have a different job and
so slow down, talk to yourclient.
Do you know what this means?
And if they're like, yeah, Iget it, do you know what this
means?
And if they're like, yeah, Iget it.
And and I know what's in myrecord and I want you to release
(08:57):
this information and Irecognize those risks, document
that, because if you didn'tdocument, it didn't happen.
Um, but then you can discloseit.
Right, you've, you've you'vegiven them the opportunity to
ask questions.
You've you've had aconversation, you've discussed
the risks.
They've signed the release.
The record is theirs and that'sthe thing to remember the
record is theirs, it's not ours.
(09:18):
We are custodians of recordsthat belong to our clients and
they can choose to do whateverthey want.
And if they decide they want topublish it in the paper, you
can say that's probably not agood idea, but it's theirs to do
with what they want.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So I think that's a helpful reminder.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, people, I hear people all the time say it's my
record and I'm not a summary.
It's not your record.
Give me a.
Give me my damn record, sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
This is a perfect platform for that, but there's a
couple of things right First.
First of all, we are custodiansof records.
Please let it sink in.
They're paying you for aservice.
Please let it sink in, right.
And then the other major thingthat I think we should turn it
(10:08):
into shirts, julie, already inour um workshops.
That we do.
But if you don't document it,it didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Don't go back like stop it, stop it please, I love
that and I think that is helpfultoo.
I think one being informed onwhat a proper service of a
subpoena is, um, I mean, I've, II've had some wild experience.
We had one that was duct tapedto a window at the office, just
(10:43):
like with all the clientinformation showing out, just
duct taped to a window at ouroffice.
Cause that was that was fun Atour office, because that was fun
, that makes perfect sense.
I received a call once becauseit was during COVID, and then
our office was locked and theyneeded to serve me and I was
(11:04):
like that's great, let's arrangea time I'll come by the office.
No, no, I need to serve youright now.
Where are you?
I was like, oh, you're not Onecoming to my personal address
address, or two coming to thedoctors where I actually was.
You can wait, my man.
Nope, you will be found incontempt of court If I do not
(11:27):
serve you within 10 minutes.
That sounds like a you problem.
Not, I'm not I mean, but but Ican tell you when, when my
employee walked, you know, droveup to the office and saw a
subpoena duct taped to our frontwindow, panicked, panicked.
We had no idea how long it hadbeen there, who had seen it, who
actually put it there.
Absolute panic, absolute panic.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
And I hear about that a lot Like someone will have
you know you won't haveup-to-date registered agents.
So this is where the registeredagent comes in.
People, If you have an entityof any kind, you have to have a
registered agent.
That's who is going to getserved.
If you're ever received thissubpoena, it was mailed to my
(12:13):
old address or it was sent to myold office.
Someone accepted it and thenjust stuck it in an inbox and
didn't tell me, and so twomonths later.
The deadline has long sincepassed.
Technically, you could be heldin contempt of court because
some schmuck at the front desksaid yes, I will accept that
subpoena.
So if you have any kind of likesetup where you're not in the
(12:35):
office every day and peoplemight be accepting things on
your behalf, oh honey, tell themstraight up.
If you ever say yes and take anenvelope from someone, tell me
immediately because that can putyou at risk.
Now your defense would be Inever got it, but from the
process serving standpointsomeone accepted it.
That process server signed thataffidavit and said, yep, I
(12:56):
handed it to someone who saidthat they would give it to the
therapist.
So you want to be sure that youhave some sort of process in
place for people to notify youif they're picking things up on
your behalf.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I mean, I haven't heard.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I will say I do, I have never heard of any of my
folks actually going to jail oncontempt of court, right.
So that's the.
That's the thing they scare youwith.
Yeah, you still don't want tobe anywhere, but you're probably
.
The point of this is you'reprobably not going to go to jail
, so please don't panic.
That's not why we're sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And the purpose of this episode is not to scare you
, is to inform you, to empoweryou, oh.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Liliana, I don't think we can scare them.
They're already scared.
They're already scared, true.
True, they just need becausethey don't know, right, they
don't know.
And especially this cohort ofclinicians that studied and did
their externships during COVID.
Right, they didn't have like areal office experience for a lot
(13:53):
of this.
Right, they didn't have like areal office experience for a lot
of this.
And we're seeing so many morecourt involved cases on the
other side of COVID, at least inour community, than we did
previously.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yes, it's true, but even before we jump in, right.
So one of the lessons, please.
There's lessons in this episode.
Never sign or a set for anyone.
First of all, yeah, and two, ifyou do, which we're saying
don't, please notify them.
Yes, don't be a jerk.
Yes, immediately let's come back.
(14:31):
So, um, julie is being sayingfrom the beginning, there's
different types um of purposesfor the subpoena, which is is it
to produce a record or is it toappear with records, because
they they just don't want to seeyou people.
They want to see you with therecord.
So we're gonna, we're to havefun with this one now.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I'll say sometimes they screw up and they do a
subpoena to appear without asubpoena to produce, and if you
only get a subpoena to appearand not a subpoena to produce.
You do not produce that record.
You show up and you say I can'tanswer any questions because I
don't have the record.
Oops, bad lawyering.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
We get that a lot.
We get that a lot here.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
We get that a lot.
We get that a lot here.
Their work for them.
You bring what they tell you tobring and if they tell you to
bring your body, you bring yourbody.
And when they ask you aquestion, that you don't
remember.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
You say I don't remember because I don't have
the record, because you didn'tsubpoena it.
Oops, right again, that soundslike a you problem that's gonna
be the theme of this episode.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The other thing is please pay attention.
Let's say, if Julie is sayingdid you sign a waiver to receive
this by mail or email?
No, then what a pay attentionto this.
Two, you always need a releaseof information from the client.
And then, three, you have tohave a conversation.
(16:14):
I don't even know if that's theright order, I just realized
that, but you have to have aconversation with your client in
regards to that.
They understand their decisionto sign that consent.
Are they understanding thateverything is fair game in that
folder Versus?
(16:34):
I just want you to say thisthat that's not how it works.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
With former clients.
The conversation is an ethicalrequirement, not a legal
requirement.
So if it's a former client, youare not obligated.
If you've got a valid releaseof information, you're not
obligated.
If you've got a valid releaseof information, you're not
obligated to hunt them down andhave that conversation now.
Sometimes you might choose tobecause it's a particularly
sensitive situation.
(17:00):
But I have a lot of folks whoget subpoenas for records from
clients that it took them likesix months to terminate with and
they really, really do not wantto call, they don't want to
have contact with them.
They had to kind of titratedown and it took forever.
So that conversation is, Ithink, vital for current clients
, optional for former clients ifit pertains to a minor from
(17:22):
parents who have medicaldecision-making.
So usually both parents willneed to authorize a disclosure
and a lot of times you're in asituation where one parent will
and the other parent won't.
You're not going to discloseuntil you get both of those
(17:45):
parents on board or you get acourt order, and that's when you
would get a court order.
Let's say you get a subpoena.
You've got a parent who says,yes, disclose.
You've got a parent who says noway you respond in writing to
the subpoenaing attorneyasserting privilege and I can
tell you how to do that ifthat's useful.
But but, then the next thingthat would happen is the
(18:08):
attorneys are going to go tocourt, they're going to fight in
front of the judge and they'regoing to say your honor, this
record is relevant evidence andit needs to be disclosed.
And if the judge agrees, thenyou will get a court order that
says you are hereby ordered to,and it'll be signed by a judge.
It's usually an order grantingthe motion to compel release.
That's what it would be called.
(18:29):
Someone will have filed amotion to compel release and
then the judge will grant it andyou'll get that court order.
And then you do discloseinformation without
authorization if the judgeorders you to.
But always just slow down, takea timeout.
You're always better to notdisclose and be wrong than to
disclose and be wrong.
(18:50):
Because if you say no, i'm'mnot sure yet, give me another
day or two to consult, figureout what's going on, great.
but if you say oh, here you goand then a day later you realize
you shouldn't have, you can'tunring that bell, and so taking
a conservative stance ondisclosure is fine.
You don't want to wait sixmonths, but you can always hit
the pause button for a day ortwo and try to figure out what's
going on.
(19:10):
Consult with your, yourprofessional liability insurance
company, consult with yourlawyer, consult with your peers.
Figure out what's going onbefore you just send stuff out
willy-nilly.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
And document who you consulted with.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
If you didn't document it, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
By the way, when you're working with couples and
they're going through divorce,that's another example of you
need both of them to agree,because both of them are your
clients.
Yeah, not just one.
We can get into a whole rabbithole in regards to but who the
insurance is carrying, andthat's another episode.
People, that's not for today.
We're just talking aboutdocumentation today.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, and I appreciate that, do you?
Is there a?
And this might vary state tostate, but what is the timeframe
from being served to being toldto appear.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
That's a great question.
There should always be adeadline on the subpoena and
there shouldn't be what we callan undue burden imposed upon the
subpoena party.
So if you get a subpoena todayto compel the release of a
record in two days, that'sgenerally going to be too short
of a time.
That's an undue burden,especially if it's a big record
(20:26):
that you have to actuallycompile.
But there is no standardtimeframe for a subpoena.
There are standard time framesfor, like general records
releases under HIPAA.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So under HIPAA, if you get a written request for a,
record.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
You have 30 days to provide that information, to
respond to that request.
Some states have shorter timeframes Colorado doesn't, but
some states do.
The shortest one I've everheard is 15 days.
So even if you get a writtenrequest, that's another thing to
not panic about, right, andoftentimes you may get a request
from an attorney's officebefore you get a subpoena from
(21:03):
an attorney's office, right?
So you get an email from anattorney saying, hey, we are
formally requesting your record.
Well, that is no more validthan any person formally
requesting.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So that's like okay great.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I'm glad you're requesting my record.
If you haven't sent me arelease, I don't even have to
respond to this.
So, yeah, the timeframe for asubpoena is really based on the
deadline in the subpoena andthere will often be.
Sometimes you'll get a subpoenato produce and appear and the
production deadline will besooner than the appearance.
(21:38):
Right, they want the record intwo weeks, but the hearing is in
four weeks.
So you do want to read whatyou've got and even though it's
fairly dense legalese, it'sunderstandable and if they're
doing it right, there are twopages of instructions that are
in like lay language that tellyou what to do.
But a lot of times, like I said, the attorneys break the rules
(22:00):
and just send what they feellike sending and don't worry
about the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, no, that's helpful.
I know.
I know some of the panichappens because, like a couple
months ago, there was a subpoenauh received on thursday to
appear on monday and it was like, oh, that seems impossible, uh,
because we're also I mean,we're all booked clinicians,
right, so like we have full daysand it takes some time.
(22:27):
Um, so they receive a subpoenaand they listen to our podcast
and they know, okay, don't panic, what.
What do they do first?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Great question.
And again, we'll just stickwith the record subpoena for now
because it's a little morestraightforward.
But if it's a current client,talk to them.
If it's a minor, current minorclient talk to the parents hey
folks, I got this subpoena forthis record going on.
(23:04):
It's not necessarily yourbusiness, but you can inquire
you know, did you know this wascoming?
Sometimes patients, clients, arelike what?
I had no idea that was going tohappen.
They didn't remember signingthe release that's on your desk
right.
So definitely current clientconversation.
Here's the deal.
I got the subpoena.
You did sign a release.
And, like I said earlier, havethat risks and benefits kind of
conversation.
Do you really want to do thisIf they say no or if there was
(23:26):
no release?
So let's just say you've got asituation either one parent says
no, the client says no or therewas no release included.
You want to provide a writtenobjection to the subpoenaing
attorney, so you will eitheremail them or you'll send a
letter.
Remember those in the mail.
(23:52):
Yeah, those still happen.
And it'll say something like hi, attorney, I've received your
subpoena.
I can neither confirm nor denyknowing the person named in this
subpoena.
All of my records areprivileged and confidential.
They will only be disclosedwith proper authorization or a
court order.
Thanks and have a good day,love Julie.
So you're basically what you'redoing there from a formal legal
standpoint is you're assertingyou are objecting, asserting
(24:13):
privilege, on behalf of yourclient?
I don't know this person andeven if I did, I'm not sending
you anything without properauthorization or a court order.
And if it's a subpoena forproduction, you're done.
You have sent your writtenobjection.
They can't say you're incontempt of court, you didn't
ignore them, you've followed theprocess.
Then it's up to them.
The ball goes back into theattorney's court to either get
(24:35):
that authorization or to get acourt order and they may say
well, the client signed anauthorization in my office and
you will say I do not currentlyhave a valid authorization.
If your client did sign anauthorization and has changed
their mind, they need to revokethat in writing.
So they just need the samething quick email or a quick
letter to the attorney saying Ihereby revoke the authorization
(24:56):
signed X date.
Then the attorney can put thepieces together and figure out
what happened.
And then they've got to regroupand either get that court order
or let it go.
So, the response only needs tobe to the issuing attorney To
the issuing attorney and then itshould whenever the again, the
way the rules work is thatattorney should also be sending
(25:17):
that notice to everybody.
Now you could, if you wanted tocopy both attorneys, you could.
But the most important thing isto the subpoenaing attorney.
You'll get on the record thatyou have done what you're
supposed to do, and then theycan go fight about it later.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I like that.
So please, and then again,we're going to attach to the
podcast Julie's information Ifyou want to do a consultation
with her.
I have the privilege that someshit like that happens, and then
I'll just email Julie and I waslike okay, just so that I don't
not cuss in the email.
Help me put a nice reply to this, because it's crazy, the things
(25:54):
that we get.
So remember you as a therapistbreathe, take a step back, go
for a walk, drink some water orsomething else I'm not going to
say what, but like just chillbefore you come back.
You do pay for professionalinsurance.
(26:15):
Utilize them.
If you have an attorney, reachout to them.
But ask questions before youvomit and that's what I call the
vomit panic.
You throw up, you do so manythings and then later you're
like, oh shit, we don't wantthat right.
Like chill, we're teachingco-regulation skills to our
(26:36):
clients.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Utilize them and and we can normalize right.
This is not taught to us in ourprogramming.
We are not taught on our rightsas being served, as our rights
as clinicians in the courtroom.
We are not taught how torespond to a subpoena and it is
very scary.
They speak a different language, much like we speak a different
(27:00):
language, and the only thingthat we are taught in our
programs is that you will messup, you will go to jail and you
will lose your license For fiveyears you will go to jail.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I remember that number.
Oh man, good times.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think one.
We want to normalize that.
Yes, the panic happens, and thepanic happens to even-season,
seasoned clinicians.
It's going to become more andmore common to be in court
involved cases in our field, andwe have some tools.
There's places to go forinformation.
Julie is a resource.
Now you pay for liabilityinsurance.
(27:39):
You should get to know themvery well, what they can and
cannot do for you and then, yes,consult.
You should never practice in asilo, even if you're in private
practice, because weird shithappens and there is always
(27:59):
right.
Like Julie, we could sit hereall morning and go well, what if
this?
Well, what if this?
What if it's duct taped to thefront door when you get to work?
There's always going to be thisweird thing happening, and so I
think the invitation is to likeit's okay, breathe, gather up
(28:20):
your resources, reach out.
You don't have to justimmediately respond because I
think that's the other.
It's like the panic.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yes, yes, and, and you know the attorneys will.
You know they'll wait till thelast second, and then it's, it's
urgent to them.
But listen, just like it's.
That's more of a you problem,right?
Your failure to prepare doesnot create a crisis for me, it
means that you've screwed up.
Oopsie daisy, I am not going toget caught in your swirl, I am
going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I'm sorry that you're screwed right now.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I'm still not going to cancel all of my clients
tomorrow and drive 200 miles tothe courtroom.
It ain't happening.
And I will also say if you getone of those situations like
that where you get a subpoena onThursday to show up on Monday
and you don't necessarily havetime to do a bunch of formal
stuff but you just can't show up, you've got eight clients
booked and it's not happening.
(29:10):
Do something in writing, sendsomething, even if it's not
perfectly done.
A judge is almost certainly notgoing to find you in contempt
of court If you have at leastreached right out to the
attorney and said I just gotyour subpoena today and I can't
show up on Monday, and here'swhy.
And I just can't do it, it'simpossible.
And if you can remember to usethe word undue burden, great.
(29:33):
But what that will show is theymay get pissy and they may say
I'm going to, I'm going to filea motion for contempt of court
and you're just going to sayyour honor, I'm just over here
trying to do my job.
I had eight people counting onme and I couldn't do that and
it's not fair to do that to meand the judge is probably going
to is more likely to slap theattorney on the wrist than to do
(29:54):
anything to you, because that'sdisrespectful of another
professional who's just tryingto take care of people.
So again, don't ignore it.
But if you really can't show up, at least send something in
writing to, and you could evengo like hog wild and figure out
who the clerk of the judge isand send them an email and say
your honor, I'm scared, I don'tknow what to do, but I can't
show up, and so I'm just goingto let you know and I'm at your
(30:17):
mercy.
It's just they're not going tothrow you in jail for that,
they're just not.
And so you know we do haveboundaries and even if it sounds
scary, and even if it is,sometimes there are emergency
hearings and I get it related tocustody.
But I'll tell you what if thetherapist's testimony is the
thing that's?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
going to be determinative.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, you know that's a bigger mess than than you
need to deal with and you stillcan't make it.
You can't make the impossiblepossible.
So you do the best you can.
You be respectful, you beprofessional, you don't ignore
things.
But you do not necessarily haveto turn yourself into a
complete pretzel to meet therequirements that someone else's
urgency has created.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, I feel like we can go on and on and on and on
keeping track of time, and I waslike you cannot have, uh, the
do do you guys remember when wewere in school?
And they're like you cannotabandon clients, like, oh my god
.
So this is one of those whereit applies.
But, as we can go on and on,this is a topic that um is just
fascinating.
(31:16):
But what would be one word umjulie, or a summary that you
want our clinicians, ouraudience, to take from you today
, besides chill?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Self-care, whether that's related to this or
anything, and I think chillfalls right into that, and I
think always being able to pauseand not get caught up in
someone else's swirl falls intothat.
So when you are, when asituation drops into your lap
and your first instinct is topanic, breathe, stop, think,
(31:53):
care for yourself.
Consultation is self-care,breathing is self-care.
Taking a walk is self-care.
So I think you know that's mynew risk management strategy.
Number one is take care ofyourself, and that's not
directly related to what we'retalking about, but it's directly
related to everything.
So, um, yeah, just just toremember that, nothing.
(32:15):
There are very few things inthe world that are actual crises
that must be handled in thismoment.
And for you to take 10 minutesto do whatever it is that you
need to do, to regulate yourselfand to start thinking clearly,
just do that in everything we do, but especially when you get a
scary thing from an attorney,because attorneys are just
posturing like everybody elseand trying to scare you.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think it was helpful information.
At one point Someone told meyou know, attorneys go to school
the same length we do.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Less than me, less than a psychologist.
My law degree was three years.
My psychology degree was five,because it took me a little
extra time to get mydissertation done.
So yeah, I mean, look, all welearn to do in law school is
read a bunch of stuff, right?
I mean, attorneys are notmagicians, they are not geniuses
.
They're just people who went toschool, just like all of us are
(33:06):
.
Don't mythologize attorneys.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, I appreciate, I really appreciate that, and I
think it's really helpful too tolike we don't have to be
reactionary, we need to beintentional and mindful.
We do not need to bereactionary.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yep, amen.
And with that, folks, we got tothe end of our episode.
Please listen.
If you have any questions,please reach out to Julie.
Reach out to your professionalinsurance.
Thank you for listening, tillnext time, bye-bye.
Thanks for having me.
Welcome back listeners to another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCardiego, and I'm joined today
by my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's me.
That's always me.
This is Liliana Valen, and weare here with a special guest.
I love Julie and I lovecollaborating with her.
So this is Julie Jacobs.
Julie, how will you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Julie Jacobs.
Let's see, I usually refer tomyself as a psychologist turned
attorney.
I practiced for about 12 yearsas a psychologist, ended up in a
couple of settings that tend tolead to burnout.
I joined the military afterSeptember 11th and I worked and
was active duty for a few yearsand then I worked at the Citadel
, which is a military collegedown in Charleston, south
(00:50):
Carolina.
I was well burnt out by thenafter about 10 years of that and
so, at 39 years old, decided togo to law school because why
not?
Like it's hard yeah, nothing ishard after working as a
psychologist in the militaryduring a war.
You know, it just kind of putseverything in perspective, um.
(01:11):
So yeah, that's what I went outto, came out to Boulder to go
to CU law, um, and loved it andwill never leave Colorado.
So here I am, uh, working,taking advantage of the
psychology and law background,and I basically work with mental
health providers in Colorado,helping them stay on the
straight and narrow ethics, riskmanagement, practice formation,
(01:34):
things like that, and I'm kindof one step removed from the
clinical work, which is okaywith me.
Right now.
I maintain both of thoselicenses.
I worked real hard for them.
I'm not giving them up, but,yeah, I just have landed in this
really lovely space.
I live in Lyons, so I get tosit in my home office and look
out the window at the birds inthe foothills.
So life is good, in spite ofall of the things that are
(01:57):
happening, and I love what I doand I love being connected to
the mental health providers herein Colorado.
I also work as a riskmanagement consultant for the
Trust, which is a bigprofessional liability insurance
company that works mostly withpsychologists, so I also spend
about 10 hours, 12 hours, a weektalking to psychologists from
all over the country about thesame stuff.
(02:18):
So I've heard some stories forsure.
I bet.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So, for all of you who are listening, when I was
thinking of this episode, Ireached out to Julie one because
I can, two because we worktogether and I was telling her
how we're noticing a new cohortof therapists coming in.
So, for all of you who arethere, after COVID there was a
lot of therapists who retire, alot of therapists who graduated.
(02:44):
There was a lot of therapistswho retire, a lot of therapists
who graduated and they'redealing with things that for
seasoned therapists, like thethree of us who are here, we're
like chill, it's not peekaboo,it's not the boogeyman, like
it's going to be OK.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
So we're going to be talking about subpoenas, so,
julie, tell us a little bit moreabout them.
Subpoenas I like to callsubpoenas a request.
With teeth, it's a recordrequest.
So there's two types ofsubpoenas.
There's either going to be asubpoena to produce a record or
subpoenas to appear and testifyeither at a deposition or at a
hearing, and sometimes you getone for both.
But essentially it's a request,like I said with teeth, it's
(03:30):
not a court order.
Okay, if a court order shows up,you must do what the court
order says or you may go to jail.
You will very rarely get acourt order.
Certainly you won't get a courtorder before you get a subpoena
.
So if you get a subpoena, justknow a subpoena will say scary
things, like you are herebycommanded to, and it will have
(03:55):
Latin on it.
Subpoena juices tecum, so itlooks really official and it'll
have a court caption.
So they look scary.
And if you're not used to thesepieces of paper, the piece of
paper can be scary.
But the thing to remember abouta subpoena is you will always
respond to a subpoena.
You will not always comply witha subpoena.
(04:17):
I like the difference yes, soyou can't ignore it.
And I have people who are likeno, I don't.
I hear this a lot, especiallyfrom seasoned psychologists
who've been doing this for like50 years.
I don't send my records, Idon't disclose my records.
Well, yeah, okay, you ought to,because if you don't then
you're breaking the law.
But you can't just ignore itand get a subpoena.
(04:39):
You can't say, oh, no, I'mgoing to pretend that didn't
happen.
You have to respond in some wayand I'll go with the subpoena
for records first, because thattends to be a lot more common.
So if you get a subpoena forrecords, remember it's a request
, you can't ignore it, but youstill need an authorization from
your client to disclose theinformation.
So, technically, here's a funfact about lawyers they don't
(05:06):
always follow the rules.
What, yes, it's, it's crazy.
Sometimes they're bullies andsometimes they just want to
scare you into doing the thing,and so technically in Colorado
you are required, if you aresending a subpoena for
privileged information andthat's what our records are
they're they're privileged, ourclients hold privilege you are
(05:29):
required to include anauthorization to release that
record.
Now I bet you both have gottenplenty of subpoenas that didn't
include authorizations with them.
Amen, yeah, so every time thathappens they are breaking the
rules.
So if you get a subpoena, firstof all, someone sending you a
(05:49):
subpoena in the mail is notproper service.
Someone emailing you a subpoenais not proper service unless
you have agreed to receive thatby mail or email.
Mail or email Okay.
So sometimes you'll you wouldprefer to get a subpoena in the
email versus some random processserver knocking on your door
handing it to you.
(06:09):
Especially during COVID, wewere all like, oh, no, email me,
that puppy, I don't want you atmy house.
Um, but if you get an email andyou haven't agreed, if you
hadn't signed a waiver ofpersonal service, technically
that subpoena was not properlyserved.
So technically you couldprobably ignore it.
(06:29):
I don't love that without doingsome kind of other step.
So you know, if you get asubpoena and it's not properly
served, you may be able to getaway with ignoring it.
They're probably going to findyou and serve you properly.
So you might want to addressthe situation anyway.
But please remember, don't doanything without authorization.
Okay.
(06:50):
So if you get a subpoena andit's got authorization from your
client to disclose the record,okay, then legally that's all
you need.
Ethically, I would say you wantto talk to your client about the
request, right?
Because to me this is a newinformed consent conversation
(07:11):
right, we think about recorddisclosure as disclosure,
releases of information, hipaa.
But you know, a client doesn'tnecessarily understand and
appreciate what it means toauthorize the disclosure of
their record, right?
Do they even know what's intheir record?
You know, unless they're goingthrough it with you every
session, they don't know whatyou've documented.
(07:32):
And so is it an informeddecision when they signed a
release of information in theirattorney's office to disclose
that information, was thatinformed?
Probably not.
It was probably informed by theattorney saying, hey, sign this
and I'll get.
I would say if it's a currentclient, I would have a
(07:54):
conversation with them from sortof an ethics informed consent
standpoint and say, hey, I gotthis subpoena and you did sign
an authorization to release therecord.
But can we talk about that?
Do you know what's in yourrecord?
Do you remember what we'vetalked about?
Do you want to review ittogether?
Do you have any questions?
Do you recognize that what's inthis record could hurt your
(08:15):
case?
Whatever your case is, and if,if, if your record blows up your
case, that's probably going toblow up our therapy relationship
.
So there's a lot of rippleeffects that people don't think
about and that it's, you know,to be fair to attorneys and I I
talk smack about attorneys allthe time, because I am one um.
It's not their job to doinformed consent, right they're?
(08:35):
Not thinking about that.
Their job is zealous advocacyto win their case, and so when
they're putting the pile ofreleases in front of their
client to have them sign, that'sthem doing their job.
That's not them doing our job,and we have a different job and
so slow down, talk to yourclient.
Do you know what this means?
And if they're like, yeah, Iget it, do you know what this
means?
And if they're like, yeah, Iget it.
And and I know what's in myrecord and I want you to release
(08:57):
this information and Irecognize those risks, document
that, because if you didn'tdocument, it didn't happen.
Um, but then you can discloseit.
Right, you've, you've you'vegiven them the opportunity to
ask questions.
You've you've had aconversation, you've discussed
the risks.
They've signed the release.
The record is theirs and that'sthe thing to remember the
record is theirs, it's not ours.
(09:18):
We are custodians of recordsthat belong to our clients and
they can choose to do whateverthey want.
And if they decide they want topublish it in the paper, you
can say that's probably not agood idea, but it's theirs to do
with what they want.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So I think that's a helpful reminder.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, people, I hear people all the time say it's my
record and I'm not a summary.
It's not your record.
Give me a.
Give me my damn record, sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
This is a perfect platform for that, but there's a
couple of things right First.
First of all, we are custodiansof records.
Please let it sink in.
They're paying you for aservice.
Please let it sink in, right.
And then the other major thingthat I think we should turn it
(10:08):
into shirts, julie, already inour um workshops.
That we do.
But if you don't document it,it didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Don't go back like stop it, stop it please, I love
that and I think that is helpfultoo.
I think one being informed onwhat a proper service of a
subpoena is, um, I mean, I've, II've had some wild experience.
We had one that was duct tapedto a window at the office, just
(10:43):
like with all the clientinformation showing out, just
duct taped to a window at ouroffice.
Cause that was that was fun Atour office, because that was fun
, that makes perfect sense.
I received a call once becauseit was during COVID, and then
our office was locked and theyneeded to serve me and I was
(11:04):
like that's great, let's arrangea time I'll come by the office.
No, no, I need to serve youright now.
Where are you?
I was like, oh, you're not Onecoming to my personal address
address, or two coming to thedoctors where I actually was.
You can wait, my man.
Nope, you will be found incontempt of court If I do not
(11:27):
serve you within 10 minutes.
That sounds like a you problem.
Not, I'm not I mean, but but Ican tell you when, when my
employee walked, you know, droveup to the office and saw a
subpoena duct taped to our frontwindow, panicked, panicked.
We had no idea how long it hadbeen there, who had seen it, who
actually put it there.
Absolute panic, absolute panic.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
And I hear about that a lot Like someone will have
you know you won't haveup-to-date registered agents.
So this is where the registeredagent comes in.
People, If you have an entityof any kind, you have to have a
registered agent.
That's who is going to getserved.
If you're ever received thissubpoena, it was mailed to my
(12:13):
old address or it was sent to myold office.
Someone accepted it and thenjust stuck it in an inbox and
didn't tell me, and so twomonths later.
The deadline has long sincepassed.
Technically, you could be heldin contempt of court because
some schmuck at the front desksaid yes, I will accept that
subpoena.
So if you have any kind of likesetup where you're not in the
(12:35):
office every day and peoplemight be accepting things on
your behalf, oh honey, tell themstraight up.
If you ever say yes and take anenvelope from someone, tell me
immediately because that can putyou at risk.
Now your defense would be Inever got it, but from the
process serving standpointsomeone accepted it.
That process server signed thataffidavit and said, yep, I
(12:56):
handed it to someone who saidthat they would give it to the
therapist.
So you want to be sure that youhave some sort of process in
place for people to notify youif they're picking things up on
your behalf.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I mean, I haven't heard.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I will say I do, I have never heard of any of my
folks actually going to jail oncontempt of court, right.
So that's the.
That's the thing they scare youwith.
Yeah, you still don't want tobe anywhere, but you're probably
.
The point of this is you'reprobably not going to go to jail
, so please don't panic.
That's not why we're sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And the purpose of this episode is not to scare you
, is to inform you, to empoweryou, oh.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Liliana, I don't think we can scare them.
They're already scared.
They're already scared, true.
True, they just need becausethey don't know, right, they
don't know.
And especially this cohort ofclinicians that studied and did
their externships during COVID.
Right, they didn't have like areal office experience for a lot
(13:53):
of this.
Right, they didn't have like areal office experience for a lot
of this.
And we're seeing so many morecourt involved cases on the
other side of COVID, at least inour community, than we did
previously.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yes, it's true, but even before we jump in, right.
So one of the lessons, please.
There's lessons in this episode.
Never sign or a set for anyone.
First of all, yeah, and two, ifyou do, which we're saying
don't, please notify them.
Yes, don't be a jerk.
Yes, immediately let's come back.
(14:31):
So, um, julie is being sayingfrom the beginning, there's
different types um of purposesfor the subpoena, which is is it
to produce a record or is it toappear with records, because
they they just don't want to seeyou people.
They want to see you with therecord.
So we're gonna, we're to havefun with this one now.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I'll say sometimes they screw up and they do a
subpoena to appear without asubpoena to produce, and if you
only get a subpoena to appearand not a subpoena to produce.
You do not produce that record.
You show up and you say I can'tanswer any questions because I
don't have the record.
Oops, bad lawyering.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
We get that a lot.
We get that a lot here.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
We get that a lot.
We get that a lot here.
Their work for them.
You bring what they tell you tobring and if they tell you to
bring your body, you bring yourbody.
And when they ask you aquestion, that you don't
remember.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
You say I don't remember because I don't have
the record, because you didn'tsubpoena it.
Oops, right again, that soundslike a you problem that's gonna
be the theme of this episode.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The other thing is please pay attention.
Let's say, if Julie is sayingdid you sign a waiver to receive
this by mail or email?
No, then what a pay attentionto this.
Two, you always need a releaseof information from the client.
And then, three, you have tohave a conversation.
(16:14):
I don't even know if that's theright order, I just realized
that, but you have to have aconversation with your client in
regards to that.
They understand their decisionto sign that consent.
Are they understanding thateverything is fair game in that
folder Versus?
(16:34):
I just want you to say thisthat that's not how it works.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
With former clients.
The conversation is an ethicalrequirement, not a legal
requirement.
So if it's a former client, youare not obligated.
If you've got a valid releaseof information, you're not
obligated.
If you've got a valid releaseof information, you're not
obligated to hunt them down andhave that conversation now.
Sometimes you might choose tobecause it's a particularly
sensitive situation.
(17:00):
But I have a lot of folks whoget subpoenas for records from
clients that it took them likesix months to terminate with and
they really, really do not wantto call, they don't want to
have contact with them.
They had to kind of titratedown and it took forever.
So that conversation is, Ithink, vital for current clients
, optional for former clients ifit pertains to a minor from
(17:22):
parents who have medicaldecision-making.
So usually both parents willneed to authorize a disclosure
and a lot of times you're in asituation where one parent will
and the other parent won't.
You're not going to discloseuntil you get both of those
(17:45):
parents on board or you get acourt order, and that's when you
would get a court order.
Let's say you get a subpoena.
You've got a parent who says,yes, disclose.
You've got a parent who says noway you respond in writing to
the subpoenaing attorneyasserting privilege and I can
tell you how to do that ifthat's useful.
But but, then the next thingthat would happen is the
(18:08):
attorneys are going to go tocourt, they're going to fight in
front of the judge and they'regoing to say your honor, this
record is relevant evidence andit needs to be disclosed.
And if the judge agrees, thenyou will get a court order that
says you are hereby ordered to,and it'll be signed by a judge.
It's usually an order grantingthe motion to compel release.
That's what it would be called.
(18:29):
Someone will have filed amotion to compel release and
then the judge will grant it andyou'll get that court order.
And then you do discloseinformation without
authorization if the judgeorders you to.
But always just slow down, takea timeout.
You're always better to notdisclose and be wrong than to
disclose and be wrong.
(18:50):
Because if you say no, i'm'mnot sure yet, give me another
day or two to consult, figureout what's going on, great.
but if you say oh, here you goand then a day later you realize
you shouldn't have, you can'tunring that bell, and so taking
a conservative stance ondisclosure is fine.
You don't want to wait sixmonths, but you can always hit
the pause button for a day ortwo and try to figure out what's
going on.
(19:10):
Consult with your, yourprofessional liability insurance
company, consult with yourlawyer, consult with your peers.
Figure out what's going onbefore you just send stuff out
willy-nilly.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
And document who you consulted with.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
If you didn't document it, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
By the way, when you're working with couples and
they're going through divorce,that's another example of you
need both of them to agree,because both of them are your
clients.
Yeah, not just one.
We can get into a whole rabbithole in regards to but who the
insurance is carrying, andthat's another episode.
People, that's not for today.
We're just talking aboutdocumentation today.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, and I appreciate that, do you?
Is there a?
And this might vary state tostate, but what is the timeframe
from being served to being toldto appear.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
That's a great question.
There should always be adeadline on the subpoena and
there shouldn't be what we callan undue burden imposed upon the
subpoena party.
So if you get a subpoena todayto compel the release of a
record in two days, that'sgenerally going to be too short
of a time.
That's an undue burden,especially if it's a big record
(20:26):
that you have to actuallycompile.
But there is no standardtimeframe for a subpoena.
There are standard time framesfor, like general records
releases under HIPAA.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So under HIPAA, if you get a written request for a,
record.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
You have 30 days to provide that information, to
respond to that request.
Some states have shorter timeframes Colorado doesn't, but
some states do.
The shortest one I've everheard is 15 days.
So even if you get a writtenrequest, that's another thing to
not panic about, right, andoftentimes you may get a request
from an attorney's officebefore you get a subpoena from
(21:03):
an attorney's office, right?
So you get an email from anattorney saying, hey, we are
formally requesting your record.
Well, that is no more validthan any person formally
requesting.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So that's like okay great.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I'm glad you're requesting my record.
If you haven't sent me arelease, I don't even have to
respond to this.
So, yeah, the timeframe for asubpoena is really based on the
deadline in the subpoena andthere will often be.
Sometimes you'll get a subpoenato produce and appear and the
production deadline will besooner than the appearance.
(21:38):
Right, they want the record intwo weeks, but the hearing is in
four weeks.
So you do want to read whatyou've got and even though it's
fairly dense legalese, it'sunderstandable and if they're
doing it right, there are twopages of instructions that are
in like lay language that tellyou what to do.
But a lot of times, like I said, the attorneys break the rules
(22:00):
and just send what they feellike sending and don't worry
about the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, no, that's helpful.
I know.
I know some of the panichappens because, like a couple
months ago, there was a subpoenauh received on thursday to
appear on monday and it was like, oh, that seems impossible, uh,
because we're also I mean,we're all booked clinicians,
right, so like we have full daysand it takes some time.
(22:27):
Um, so they receive a subpoenaand they listen to our podcast
and they know, okay, don't panic, what.
What do they do first?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Great question.
And again, we'll just stickwith the record subpoena for now
because it's a little morestraightforward.
But if it's a current client,talk to them.
If it's a minor, current minorclient talk to the parents hey
folks, I got this subpoena forthis record going on.
(23:04):
It's not necessarily yourbusiness, but you can inquire
you know, did you know this wascoming?
Sometimes patients, clients, arelike what?
I had no idea that was going tohappen.
They didn't remember signingthe release that's on your desk
right.
So definitely current clientconversation.
Here's the deal.
I got the subpoena.
You did sign a release.
And, like I said earlier, havethat risks and benefits kind of
conversation.
Do you really want to do thisIf they say no or if there was
(23:26):
no release?
So let's just say you've got asituation either one parent says
no, the client says no or therewas no release included.
You want to provide a writtenobjection to the subpoenaing
attorney, so you will eitheremail them or you'll send a
letter.
Remember those in the mail.
(23:52):
Yeah, those still happen.
And it'll say something like hi, attorney, I've received your
subpoena.
I can neither confirm nor denyknowing the person named in this
subpoena.
All of my records areprivileged and confidential.
They will only be disclosedwith proper authorization or a
court order.
Thanks and have a good day,love Julie.
So you're basically what you'redoing there from a formal legal
standpoint is you're assertingyou are objecting, asserting
(24:13):
privilege, on behalf of yourclient?
I don't know this person andeven if I did, I'm not sending
you anything without properauthorization or a court order.
And if it's a subpoena forproduction, you're done.
You have sent your writtenobjection.
They can't say you're incontempt of court, you didn't
ignore them, you've followed theprocess.
Then it's up to them.
The ball goes back into theattorney's court to either get
(24:35):
that authorization or to get acourt order and they may say
well, the client signed anauthorization in my office and
you will say I do not currentlyhave a valid authorization.
If your client did sign anauthorization and has changed
their mind, they need to revokethat in writing.
So they just need the samething quick email or a quick
letter to the attorney saying Ihereby revoke the authorization
(24:56):
signed X date.
Then the attorney can put thepieces together and figure out
what happened.
And then they've got to regroupand either get that court order
or let it go.
So, the response only needs tobe to the issuing attorney To
the issuing attorney and then itshould whenever the again, the
way the rules work is thatattorney should also be sending
(25:17):
that notice to everybody.
Now you could, if you wanted tocopy both attorneys, you could.
But the most important thing isto the subpoenaing attorney.
You'll get on the record thatyou have done what you're
supposed to do, and then theycan go fight about it later.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I like that.
So please, and then again,we're going to attach to the
podcast Julie's information Ifyou want to do a consultation
with her.
I have the privilege that someshit like that happens, and then
I'll just email Julie and I waslike okay, just so that I don't
not cuss in the email.
Help me put a nice reply to this, because it's crazy, the things
(25:54):
that we get.
So remember you as a therapistbreathe, take a step back, go
for a walk, drink some water orsomething else I'm not going to
say what, but like just chillbefore you come back.
You do pay for professionalinsurance.
(26:15):
Utilize them.
If you have an attorney, reachout to them.
But ask questions before youvomit and that's what I call the
vomit panic.
You throw up, you do so manythings and then later you're
like, oh shit, we don't wantthat right.
Like chill, we're teachingco-regulation skills to our
(26:36):
clients.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Utilize them and and we can normalize right.
This is not taught to us in ourprogramming.
We are not taught on our rightsas being served, as our rights
as clinicians in the courtroom.
We are not taught how torespond to a subpoena and it is
very scary.
They speak a different language, much like we speak a different
(27:00):
language, and the only thingthat we are taught in our
programs is that you will messup, you will go to jail and you
will lose your license For fiveyears you will go to jail.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I remember that number.
Oh man, good times.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think one.
We want to normalize that.
Yes, the panic happens, and thepanic happens to even-season,
seasoned clinicians.
It's going to become more andmore common to be in court
involved cases in our field, andwe have some tools.
There's places to go forinformation.
Julie is a resource.
Now you pay for liabilityinsurance.
(27:39):
You should get to know themvery well, what they can and
cannot do for you and then, yes,consult.
You should never practice in asilo, even if you're in private
practice, because weird shithappens and there is always
(27:59):
right.
Like Julie, we could sit hereall morning and go well, what if
this?
Well, what if this?
What if it's duct taped to thefront door when you get to work?
There's always going to be thisweird thing happening, and so I
think the invitation is to likeit's okay, breathe, gather up
(28:20):
your resources, reach out.
You don't have to justimmediately respond because I
think that's the other.
It's like the panic.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yes, yes, and, and you know the attorneys will.
You know they'll wait till thelast second, and then it's, it's
urgent to them.
But listen, just like it's.
That's more of a you problem,right?
Your failure to prepare doesnot create a crisis for me, it
means that you've screwed up.
Oopsie daisy, I am not going toget caught in your swirl, I am
going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I'm sorry that you're screwed right now.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I'm still not going to cancel all of my clients
tomorrow and drive 200 miles tothe courtroom.
It ain't happening.
And I will also say if you getone of those situations like
that where you get a subpoena onThursday to show up on Monday
and you don't necessarily havetime to do a bunch of formal
stuff but you just can't show up, you've got eight clients
booked and it's not happening.
(29:10):
Do something in writing, sendsomething, even if it's not
perfectly done.
A judge is almost certainly notgoing to find you in contempt
of court If you have at leastreached right out to the
attorney and said I just gotyour subpoena today and I can't
show up on Monday, and here'swhy.
And I just can't do it, it'simpossible.
And if you can remember to usethe word undue burden, great.
(29:33):
But what that will show is theymay get pissy and they may say
I'm going to, I'm going to filea motion for contempt of court
and you're just going to sayyour honor, I'm just over here
trying to do my job.
I had eight people counting onme and I couldn't do that and
it's not fair to do that to meand the judge is probably going
to is more likely to slap theattorney on the wrist than to do
(29:54):
anything to you, because that'sdisrespectful of another
professional who's just tryingto take care of people.
So again, don't ignore it.
But if you really can't show up, at least send something in
writing to, and you could evengo like hog wild and figure out
who the clerk of the judge isand send them an email and say
your honor, I'm scared, I don'tknow what to do, but I can't
show up, and so I'm just goingto let you know and I'm at your
(30:17):
mercy.
It's just they're not going tothrow you in jail for that,
they're just not.
And so you know we do haveboundaries and even if it sounds
scary, and even if it is,sometimes there are emergency
hearings and I get it related tocustody.
But I'll tell you what if thetherapist's testimony is the
thing that's?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
going to be determinative.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, you know that's a bigger mess than than you
need to deal with and you stillcan't make it.
You can't make the impossiblepossible.
So you do the best you can.
You be respectful, you beprofessional, you don't ignore
things.
But you do not necessarily haveto turn yourself into a
complete pretzel to meet therequirements that someone else's
urgency has created.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, I feel like we can go on and on and on and on
keeping track of time, and I waslike you cannot have, uh, the
do do you guys remember when wewere in school?
And they're like you cannotabandon clients, like, oh my god
.
So this is one of those whereit applies.
But, as we can go on and on,this is a topic that um is just
fascinating.
(31:16):
But what would be one word umjulie, or a summary that you
want our clinicians, ouraudience, to take from you today
, besides chill?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Self-care, whether that's related to this or
anything, and I think chillfalls right into that, and I
think always being able to pauseand not get caught up in
someone else's swirl falls intothat.
So when you are, when asituation drops into your lap
and your first instinct is topanic, breathe, stop, think,
(31:53):
care for yourself.
Consultation is self-care,breathing is self-care.
Taking a walk is self-care.
So I think you know that's mynew risk management strategy.
Number one is take care ofyourself, and that's not
directly related to what we'retalking about, but it's directly
related to everything.
So, um, yeah, just just toremember that, nothing.
(32:15):
There are very few things inthe world that are actual crises
that must be handled in thismoment.
And for you to take 10 minutesto do whatever it is that you
need to do, to regulate yourselfand to start thinking clearly,
just do that in everything we do, but especially when you get a
scary thing from an attorney,because attorneys are just
posturing like everybody elseand trying to scare you.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think it was helpful information.
At one point Someone told meyou know, attorneys go to school
the same length we do.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Less than me, less than a psychologist.
My law degree was three years.
My psychology degree was five,because it took me a little
extra time to get mydissertation done.
So yeah, I mean, look, all welearn to do in law school is
read a bunch of stuff, right?
I mean, attorneys are notmagicians, they are not geniuses
.
They're just people who went toschool, just like all of us are
(33:06):
.
Don't mythologize attorneys.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, I appreciate, I really appreciate that, and I
think it's really helpful too tolike we don't have to be
reactionary, we need to beintentional and mindful.
We do not need to bereactionary.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yep, amen.
And with that, folks, we got tothe end of our episode.
Please listen.
If you have any questions,please reach out to Julie.
Reach out to your professionalinsurance.
Thank you for listening, tillnext time, bye-bye.
Thanks for having me.
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