June 12, 2025 • 40 mins
Ever wonder how law enforcement officers manage their roles' immense stress while maintaining their identities? Our insightful guest, Anjuli Raven Thompson, a licensed professional counselor supervisor, steps into the spotlight to share her fascinating journey as a mental health advocate for police officers. Inspired by her husband's lengthy career in law enforcement, Anjali has carved out a unique niche by integrating synergetic play therapy into her work, offering officers a tailored approach to mental health support.
Empathy and authenticity are at the heart of our conversation, and we emphasize the necessity of humanizing law enforcement personnel. By understanding the societal pressures and stigmas they face, we can better support officers in separating their identities from their professional roles. Like officers, Anjuli shares how therapists must navigate this delicate balance in their own lives. Through our discussion, we open a dialogue on the importance of seeing officers as individuals with intricate identities and experiences.
This episode also explores the evolving landscape of police departments, highlighting a move toward community-based policing and greater acceptance of mental health support. Anjuli touches upon the critical role of continuous learning and self-improvement within law enforcement, encouraging officers to engage with mental health resources to enhance their skills and performance. Focusing on fostering a supportive environment, we aim to empower officers and inspire positive changes for them and the communities they serve.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
welcome listeners to another episode of a hero's
welcome podcast.
We're very excited to have youtoday.
I'm your co-host, marila carriediego, and I'm here with my
lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
She's talking about me.
This is lillian raylan, uh, andwe are very excited today
because I have a special guest.
How, until how, do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
um, well, I guess, like I said, okay, so we were
just talking and a large part ofmy introduction is difficult
for me because I just introducedmyself as anjali um, but with
the the vibe of kind of what'sgoing on here today, we're going
to be definitely talking aboutwhat I do as far as being in the
counseling world, maybe being abusiness owner, and so I guess,
(00:48):
as far as credentials go, I'm alicensed professional counselor
supervisor.
I actually don't promote thatsupervision part because I find
it really hard at this point inmy career I'm still practicing
pretty hardcore.
So I don't promote that Isupervise because I feel like I
can't give as much time as Iwould like to give to my
supervisees, because I'm kind ofa sink or swim type of girl.
(01:10):
So I'm a licensed professionalcounseling supervisor.
I also am EMDR trained.
I'm a registered play therapist.
I do synergetic play.
I'm kind of all over the boardbecause I get bored very easily
and a large part of my niche, Iguess you could say, is heavily
(01:32):
involving me working with lawenforcement officers.
So my husband is a policeofficer.
He's been in law enforcementfor over 17 years and that's
kind of where my journey beganin this field.
I kind of became like the lawenforcement girl because I'm in
the club and um it's kind ofgrown from there.
(01:53):
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Like I said, first of all, you're not all over the
place, and that's what I loveabout you.
When we met um, do you want totell us how we met, because I
thought it was fucking hilarious, the best actually how long ago
was that?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
okay?
So we met at a play therapyconference.
It was really funny actually,because we were in terry cotman
class and, um, we were placed ina group in a family yeah and
there was a lot of movement andI'm definitely not like a let's
get out and move and dance andjellyfish around with these
people.
But we're at a play conference,right, we got to play.
(02:29):
And so we're in this group.
I happen to be placed withLiliana and Lisa Dion.
We have the best time, like wejust we were together.
And then Meredith, she was inthat, she was in our class,
right, yes, so we were literallythis family.
And then the rest of the timewe're like seeing each other at
(02:50):
the conference, we're like heyfam, hey fam, you know, like
we're family, whatever.
Well then I go into this, thisclass, and it's Lisa Dion's
class, and she gets up on stage.
I'm like who the like her stuff?
She's smart, she's smart.
Who are all these people, youknow?
So then over time, we just kindof like connected and grew and
(03:13):
then, um, we just we justclicked.
It was just a really good timeyeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So for all of you who are there who have not taken a
class with Terry, um, first ofall, if you know anything about
her, you know that it's a vibeand we all love her vibe.
And then in that group I had toturn around and faced you and
then you were supposed to justmimic whatever I did, and I was
like I ain't gonna so fuck withyou today.
(03:41):
And I did, and she joined meand we were just we couldn't
keep it straight.
I'm I'm surprised that I didnot pee my pants because you
just like went with it and thatwas our introduction.
So from that moment on,everyone thought that we knew
each other for years.
Yeah, but it was just thatclass, right.
(04:01):
So then I started asking youquestions so you share what your
husband did and I was like,well, tell me more.
I started learning how you weredoing trainings for the police
department and how you werehelping them from an SPT lens,
and then has expanded on how toattune, how to like understand
(04:24):
what they were going through andGod knows they were going
through a lot as well.
And then, like, you startsharing more and I was like, oh,
this is important work thatyou're doing and it still is.
So can you tell us a little bitmore of recent trainings that
you have done, or trainings thatyou have done and how the work
(04:45):
that you do being a mentalhealth therapist and being in
the club I love thatacknowledgement and being in the
club is helping you provideservices to them or trainings to
them?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
So what's interesting about this SPT lens is that a
lot of people on the outside I'mjust going to say on the
outside tend to focus on like,oh, look at those balloons, tend
to focus on what they see isthe issue, but really honestly,
in the field, like it's a job,you know what I mean.
(05:15):
So a lot of the time whatpeople don't look at is like
they're desensitized, and notnecessarily in a negative way,
to the things that they see.
Now, of course you've got, youknow, infant fatalities, officer
involved, shootings, differentthings like that that can be
heightened in nature, but forthe most part it was the same as
anybody that walks into myoffice and it's the breakdown of
the home, it's thedysregulation in the home.
(05:36):
And so synergetic play wasreally great because I'd already
done, I've done multipletrainings, I do peer support
stuff.
So peer support is cop to cop,but they always want me there
because I'm like a softer side.
Essentially I'm not always softbut I'm a softer side.
They listen to me more becauseI'm female.
(05:58):
But over the course of like mycareer, prior to even being in
like mental health, I worked inthe court system.
So a lot of my colleagues andfriends were also law
enforcement attorneys, so I'm inthat like legal world.
I worked for a judge for areally long time.
We did traffic court and so itwas really just relationships
that I built over the course oftime.
(06:19):
That kind of got me where I am.
And then they started askingfor me to come and speak and I
actually developed a trainingcalled 10 Deadly Errors in Law
Enforcement and it was off thisbook by.
It was called Code 10, officerDown, and I basically related
like the errors in lawenforcement to like mental
(06:40):
wellness, to try to bridge thetwo and speak to them in their
language so that I could alsode-stigmatize mental health in
the field.
And I actually got.
I had a really good friend Ibet it's about who you know too.
So I had a really good friendworking in the memorials, like
throughout the state of Alabama,who became like an advocate and
a coordinator with a virtualacademy which is a national
(07:01):
organization they provide freeCEUs to law enforcement and he
was like Anjali, you need tocome like teach through this
platform.
And I was like, okay, so Ibrought, I went up to Tennessee
and I was like it was hard forme because when I teach like
I've got to walk around and moveand you know the interaction is
like a huge part of likefeeling out like what you're
(07:24):
going to bring.
You know Lisa talks about thattoo, like, and at that point I'm
standing in between tape and Ican't move and I spoke for four
solid hours and I delivered mypresentation, but that
presentation is now likenational, so it's it's.
I still get emails to this dayof people who will like email me
from all over the US that likesaw it and all it is is really
(07:45):
just again, like stressmanagement.
It's destigmatizing what theysee.
It's asking the things thatLisa asked like well, what, if
you're OK, because you run intowith law enforcement, a lot of
people will claim I've gotpost-traumatic stress disorder.
Ok, well, that's also aperception most of the time and
we know that.
So I destigmatize that.
I definitely, like I do a lot ofnew higher evaluations now,
(08:09):
which are my most favorite thingto do.
So anytime you've got newbiepolice officers coming in, they
have to go through a psych.
Essentially, oh, okay, and Iactually have a template and I
kind of I'm looking for abaseline and I'm teaching them
about the nervous system andagain, spt across the board like
these are.
I normalize things.
I normalize that like I show upand I'm in my leggings and I'm
(08:31):
comfortable and I'm like this istherapy, like this is education
, and so my goal with them is toget them comfortable in a space
prior to entering the field andthen being highly aware of what
their baseline is prior toadjustments that occur, so that
over time if they need somethingand their baseline kind of
(08:51):
starts to waver, they actuallywill come back to me.
And it's been.
It's been awesome.
It was actually mandated almostthree years ago in the state of
Alabama that those evals are amandate in our state.
So I love that.
It's like I said, it's been fun.
I still I kind of hide more now, like I'm behind the scenes
(09:14):
working, but anytime there's abig like incident that occurs
like I will go and I will.
I'm still making relationshipswith all the different agencies
in our area, so it's just been areally fun thing.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So for all of them out there who, when you said,
like I'm hiding, I was like,well, you're not hiding, you're
in a different family than yourfamily.
So you're like super busybecause of your children?
Yes, right, so let's name thatout.
Because you're human, you are awife, you are a mother and
you're super busy because yourchildren are also super busy.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yes, big time athletes and I'm kind of
supporting their drive and, yeah, we're all very driven family,
so, but again, what's crazy is Imean I I'm very structured in
all of my things, but that doesleave little room for like extra
.
And I've gotten a lot bettertoo.
(10:08):
I've had people that will reachout and ask like, will you
teach on this or will you teachon anxiety in the classroom or
whatever?
And in the old days, like I'dbe like yeah, yeah, and I would
spend time developing,developing.
And then I realized, likeprobably two or three years ago,
I was like I don't want toteach on anything other than 10
deadly errors, like I want tolike hone in on that craft and
(10:30):
really promote that.
And so I've been saying no tocertain things and really kind
of just focusing on what I loveto teach on, which is that.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Which is a great message for anyone who's
listening out there.
Right, we just came from thebusiness of therapy.
We just came exactly discussingum.
For all of you who arelistening, business of therapy
is a program that lisa dion hasin addition to synergetic, which
is just helping you for two anda half days, three days, um, um
, if, if you uh decide to do theextra part, um, in regards to
(11:02):
um, what do you want to say yesto?
What do you say no to?
And metaphors that she usesthere.
But coming back to it, and Ithink that's why no, this is why
I know why I wanted to have youhere, because when we think
about police officers, we don'tthink of them as humans, and you
humanized them for me when Imet you and you were talking
about everything that yourhusband was going through, and
(11:27):
then how we can help them, howwe can talk about the stigma
that they have, the stigma thatthey deal, the projections as a
society that we tend to put onthem, when, in reality, it's not
them.
It's based on fears that we have, lack of knowledge that we have
not them.
It's based on fears that wehave, lack of knowledge that we
(11:48):
have and lack of understandingthe stressors that they have in
their job, which we all haveright.
So, for all of us who aretherapists and we're thinking,
what if a police officer comesand is seeking services?
How can I help them, how can Ihumanize them?
What is it that I need to knowabout their line of work?
That it has never crossed mymind, because if you're a play
(12:10):
therapist, you're just seekingtrainings about working with the
kiddos.
But what if their father?
What if their parents arepolice officers?
What is it that you need toknow about this system?
Yeah Right, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I think one of the biggest things also, you know,
lisa teaches like gettingyourself off the pedestal.
That's one of the biggestthings that I push and encourage
anybody to push when workingwith law enforcement.
It's easier for me, I think andthis is just me speaking from
my experience, just because,like I do live it, but also like
(12:44):
, so you know, they have thisidea that we were counselors on,
are on pedestals.
You know, like we're we'resubhuman at times.
For the love of God, we can'tbreak, we can't scream, we can't
be tired and overworkingourselves.
You know.
So it's like, weirdly, there'sa way to relate that, even as a
counselor to law enforcement andand kind of even say, like you
know, at the end of thebeginning phase of this is going
(13:06):
to be getting yourself off thepedestal.
Number one, because the worldplaces them on a pedestal, and
that's been super helpful for mepersonally, is trying to
separate the identity from thejob and work with the identity.
Because I tell people all thetime like this is like at the
end of the day, they you're abusiness move, that's the truth.
(13:28):
So I tell them, like you're abusiness move, they will replace
you the moment that you leave.
They don't.
It's not that they don't care,but it's kind of similar to even
running a group practice.
You know what I mean.
Like I love my counselors andwe are in the business of
feelings, but at the end of theday you're also a business move.
Like you're a 1099, you're acontractor, you can go, do
whatever you want, but you'restill a business move.
(13:50):
So you have to make sure thatyou're strong in your identity
outside of that field and it'sbeen.
That's really what I push withthat population, because I mean
I've worked with people from thebrand new baby 19 year old cops
who are like ready to changethe world, and then the cops
(14:10):
that are like 25 years in,literally asking themselves who
am I?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So there's a delayed response.
And who am I?
And my goal when I get themhere, as they're still in the
field, is to go ahead and figureout your identity prior to
retirement.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
So, if anything, it's again just de-stigmatizing,
like, okay, but who are yououtside of this job?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
yeah and getting them to actually kind of reflect in
on that versus what is wrongwith me yeah, I can see how that
might be difficult, oh gosh,when their job is really kind of
consuming, right like it is.
Um and two things like one isthe perception of police
(15:00):
officers, and in today's day andage it's not great.
They're not seen as safeindividuals, it's not seen as a
safe organization and we aregrouping them all together right
, yes, yes.
And so being able to like whoare you outside of this job and
(15:21):
how does that impact yourability to do your job and who
you are when you are putting onthat uniform, is very similar to
like who are we as therapistsoutside of putting on our you
know cardigan to be very clicheabout therapists, right, but I
think there's something to thatthat we I know and we've talked
(15:41):
about this before.
Liliato, in my training I was,I was told to check my identity
at the door and I was not me inthe clinic room, and you know
we're we're all speaking thesame synergetic language here
that we know that that's nottrue and that's not helpful,
right, that's not helpful, right.
(16:05):
So I can see you helping themfind their identity, not just
for themselves, forpost-retirement, but to keep
part of that humanity in a jobthat is very difficult to do is
not well supported by somecommunities, and keeping them
connected to that humanity pieceboth ways, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right.
So for all of you who arelistening, it's not that
different than the work that wealready do.
And the invitation is can yoube curious about this population
?
Because they're humans like youand me, right, and what we're
discussing today is like firstof all, let's get you off the
pedestal.
Um was your um, what's yourbaseline?
(16:48):
I love that a lot, actually.
What's your baseline so thatyou can recognize your
dysregulation?
What a beautiful invitation.
When you are dysregulated, whatcan you do to seek the support
that you need?
Either co-regulation, therapy,family, whatever it is, sports,
(17:10):
like, what is it that you need?
And then your identity who areyou outside this uniform and who
are you when you're in thatuniform?
What is required of you?
Both areas that is such aimportant work to do.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You feel heavy and it does take time for them to
trust that.
Like I said, you know, Ioperate also very maslow's.
Like, yeah, when I, when I saybaseline, I'm also looking at,
like you know, when people comein, I'm like okay, who's your
primary doctor?
And like why don't we make surethat your physical health is
(17:44):
good?
Yeah, because I mean I've hadclients who have come in
hallucinating because they'reiron loaders.
You know what I mean.
So like I'm very Maslow's, I'mvery ground from the bottom up,
so I make sure that they've gota good physical support system
when it comes to managing thatphysical health.
A good physical support systemwhen it comes to managing that
physical health, especiallybecause as stress starts to
(18:05):
compact, like you know, yourphysical health will start to
drain and then you lose sleep.
And so I mean there are timespeople will come in and I'm like
you don't drink enough waterand you're hungry.
You know like let's, let's geta routine around that and let's
orient to that part of you sothat when that part that you can
control is controlled well, theother parts are so much easier
(18:29):
to operate in.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And they um, they definitely receive that.
Well, it takes time because I'mlike I don't give a shit about
your problems, like I don't care, like you're, you're, you want
me to listen to you, but I'm notlistening to you until you
listen to me.
That's true.
That's where I'm at right nowand I work for some and I don't
work for others and for the mostpart, like people want the
truth, so I try to deliver thetruth pretty early on so that
(18:55):
they know and I teach themquickly how I operate.
Like I want you to feel betterquickly.
Have you ever seen stutz onnetflix?
Do?
you know who stutz is no, oh mygosh, do you know who?
Uh, what's that guy's name?
Jonah hill.
I know who that is.
Yeah, he does this.
There's this documentary onnetflix called stutz and it's
(19:17):
him with his therapist and Iknow it's hollywood, right, like
I'm sure who, who knows what.
All is real, but it seemspretty pretty real.
Okay, but Phil Stutz is also.
He's a psychologist in New York, like Jonah is one of his
clients and they do thisdocumentary together, which was
kind of taboo.
But Phil Stutz and the way heoperates is very much like that.
He was like you know, I'm goingthrough school, I'm hearing
everything that they're teachingme as a therapist and how to be
(19:39):
and how to operate, and samething that we've been kind of,
you know, broken with Lisa'steachings.
And he was like I noticed thatpeople are leaving and they're
not feeling okay and they're notfeeling better.
And he's like so I startedapproaching it from a different
angle and I told people thetruth up front, like this is
what you need to do, and if it'snot going to, if you're not
going to do it and you're notwilling to do it, say that, be
(19:59):
honest.
And so I've learned that overtime, the more honest you are,
even if there's risk for loss.
They're still going to rememberit, even if they decide that
you're not the fit.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, and how basic.
I was like how many of you whoare listening to us when we say
like, well, have you in, haveyou slept, have you been
drinking, have you beenhydrating?
And we're talking about water,and then others were like, oh
shit, no, we don't prioritizethat.
And how important, vital it is,and and how, because that
(20:34):
impacts how you feel and andyour capacity to respond.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So I think that's necessary for to even regulate
your nervous system, like it'sif you're dehydrated and your
system's already screaming.
And then you and I justrecently did an emdr training up
with annie monaco up in newyork.
Fabulous, love her, oh my gosh.
Yeah, and the way she operates.
I'm like there's on there, likeshe's like parts work.
(21:02):
We're not going to get thereuntil you do this Like, but it's
genuinely taking control of thebaseline so that as the things
come in that dysregulate youinto a dissociative part that
doesn't serve you well,necessarily, in that event you
can reorient to yourself.
So, it's brilliant stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And even when you said hydrate, I remember like
when we were hanging and all thebottles that you had, cause it
was water everywhere.
This woman hydrates and she'slike this is not enough.
I was like it is.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I've like traumatized myself with hydration stuff,
like I'm like, okay, what's thetruth?
Half my body weight when I'mthirsty, what is it, you know?
So I've even been working onlike that natural, like
intuitive part of me, that'slike yeah let me calm down a bit
when it comes to even thatwater pushing stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So I think that that goes to like societal messages
and even even medical messages,right, like it changes over time
.
Eggs are good for you.
Eggs are bad for you, right,like you need to have half your
body weight.
Actually, you only need eightglasses.
Well, what is a glass Like it?
It it's varied, right, as newinformation comes out, or who
(22:23):
you're listening to and whoyou're getting that information
from.
I think that that goes alongwith what is mental health,
right?
What is therapy really?
Look like, um, and I can seethat being extended to like what
is a police officer.
Yeah, what is the perception oflaw enforcement, right Cause we
(22:44):
have things that are likeprotect and serve, and then we
have shows like law and order,and then we have like really
what's happening in incommunities that that's not okay
, and then we have, you know, wealso have like really impactful
stories that show that they aregood people and like doing the
work and doing what they'resupposed to be doing.
So I think it's important to tobe like who are we listening to
(23:07):
?
Who are we getting that messagefrom?
And is it true?
Right, going back to theintuitiveness, is it true for us
?
Right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
and even beyond that right, because then is the
stereotypes that we're buildingaround professions or around
people?
Because when I think ofmilitary, when I think of police
officers, I think they aretrained to detach, they are
trained to do a job and societythem for doing that job, when
(23:41):
their training required you todo this.
So how do we help theindividual?
The same way that we're goingthrough a shift in mental health
, which is you get to show upand be you, you don't have to
have.
I love when you say like isthat why we all wear sweaters?
Part of like, oh, you're atherapist because you wear the
(24:02):
sweater.
Um, but um, it's.
How do we humanize and makesense of what is expected of
them because of their trainingand then the human side that
they have, that they don't getto show up, um, and I remember
um, working with the policeofficer and the first thing we
was doing emotionally focusedtherapy and the goal of
(24:25):
emotionally focused therapy,which is go to primary emotion.
And I remember talking to thisindividual and he said I cannot
afford to like completely be init, because as soon as I leave
here, I have to go and do this.
So then we started breaking itdown into parts what you were
(24:46):
saying, which is like, okay, inthis moment, when you are with
your significant other, what isit that is needed?
What are we asking of and howwe can be more?
How can we talk about parts sothat when you leave, you get to
put this part again because youhave to go function?
It's part of your survivalmechanism.
You are here with her.
(25:06):
What is it that we need whenyou're with your children?
What is it that you need?
Do they need the police officeror they need you?
So is this part?
But that helped me, because healso mentioned a book and I
don't have it here that I wentand read and I was crying when I
was reading and it was not theone that you mentioned um, code
10, um, but it was um and Iforgot the name of the book um.
(25:28):
But it helped me to humanizeand to make sense of oh, you
have to carry this defensemechanism all the time to do
what is required of you, whichis you know what you're teaching
now, which is what is it thatyou?
Which is you know what you'reteaching now, which is what is
it that you know about you,because you got the training on
how to be a police officer, gotit and it's going to be ongoing.
(25:48):
But what you're suggesting,which is how do we help
desensitize, first of all,mental health and then, in that
is, how do we help you treat thewhole person.
If I'm getting this right, whichis, tell me about your body,
what is it that it needs?
Are you resting?
Are you going to your wellnesscheck?
Are you eating?
(26:09):
Are you hydrating and we're nottalking about coffee, because
we all drink coffee, but, like,are you actually hydrating?
And, if so, when you come withme, what is it that you want to
accomplish with me?
Because I have an agenda when Ithink of mental health, but
what is it that you truly needfrom me?
What is it that you are awarewhen you're talking about your
baseline?
And then, what is it?
(26:30):
What is the goal of in orderfor you to go function in all
the parts that you'refunctioning?
And I think for me, since I metyou, which is, how do I
humanize what you want tohumanize and how do we work on
those defenses that you need inorder to survive?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Well, and law enforcement's filled with a lot
of shoulds, you know so.
So the thing about it too isone of the questions I ask.
Most of them is can youunderstand how you got here?
Because you've got they willget to the outside behavior.
How you got here because you'vegot they will get to the
outside behavior, which could beporn addiction and infidelity
and alcoholism and the copingright so like once they've
(27:09):
expanded to that style of coping, also even normalizing, how you
got to that style of coping.
You know, like the adrenaline,like you're essentially when
your nervous system is so usedto functioning at a higher state
.
Any time that you're actuallydown in a normal realm of
functioning it feels verydysregulating to you and you're
(27:30):
going to do anything you can tomake sure your nervous system is
creating that.
And it comes with all kinds ofdifferent things that anybody on
the outside would look at andshame because it's abnormal to
you.
Know, go out and do this or goout like constantly drink every
day.
So I try to get people to, evenin the beginning, like where
(27:53):
are you?
Like, let's normalize whereyou're at first.
Yeah, because if we can alsoslowly take control of the shame
cycle that comes in, whichcreates that obsession and the
compulsion, we can, we can doaway with the cycle of it.
We can understand how it gotthere and then we can work with
it, that we can reduce it.
So it's it's really hard to getpeople to understand like, oh,
(28:17):
that makes sense why I'maddicted to porn.
It makes sense that one of myvery first sexual experiences
was virtual.
You know, like it.
It makes sense that that's nowbeing reinforced because now
I've also tied my ejaculationwith regulating my nervous
system and anxiety that's beenbuilt up inside of me.
So it just takes time to getthem to get comfortable enough.
(28:37):
And now that comes with.
That's difficult too, as afemale work who works primarily
with males, because you've gotwives who also question like how
are you going in there and andtalking to your female therapist
about sex and ejaculation andokay.
So that's why I'm like, okay,well, let's also normalize this
for her.
(28:57):
Like let's get in here andunderstanding like what this is?
Because it comes with the wholeother level of they want to
trust you.
And then they sometimesquestion how can I trust you
with this but not get anybodyelse on the outside to
understand it?
yeah but I mean there's so manymultiple layers to every person
and then sometimes I get reallylucky and you know you've got
(29:17):
pretty solid.
You know police officers thatcome in that have had pretty
shitty lives and they'reextremely resilient individuals
that are very connected tothemselves and to their families
and they just soak up theknowledge and then they just
grow and grow and grow in thefield and those are the ones
that then become supervisors.
And then you know, if thosepeople are supervisors, well
(29:39):
then they're spreading all thelight that they naturally have
in them to their subordinates.
And so it's neat to learn eventhe different like police
departments and their structuresand like when I'm doing these
new hire evaluations, I'm likewhat police department are you
applying for?
You can almost tell if they'regoing to fit or not.
You're like, oh, that's notgoing to work there, son, you
(30:01):
know, like, but it's, it's justso neat to look at even the
police department as anindividual and to and to see the
structure of how they functionand who are the higher ups.
And that, and what I'm noticingtoo, is like a lot of the
people that are now in their 30sto 40s who are very, very open
to the newer, community-basedpolicing.
(30:24):
Things are getting a lot better.
Um, now, back in the day, youknow when there weren't body
cams and street justice andeveryone's you know old school
men duke it out.
You know like we settle it upfist to fist you know like that
was acceptable at a certain time.
You and now it's body cams andjudgment, and people are getting
(30:44):
better at being able tocommunity police.
But that also takes buildingrelationships with your
community, yeah, and so it'seven normalizing that with
people, and I'm finding morepeople between 30s and 40s are
very much more open to liketherapy and mental health and
wellness.
They're even trying to develop.
You've got police departmentsthat are wanting to develop like
(31:06):
mental health policy, and soI've been excited to help kind
of like sit with them and theirpolicies and look at it and be
like, hey, well, that'sbeautiful, but it also doesn't
fit here.
You know like that won't workbecause again, you still have to
operate like a business yeah soit's just, you know it's every
day is going to be an adjustmentand I think that as long as
(31:28):
there's more conversation aboutit and the more people that have
positive experiences where theycome in and they see that oh
okay, wait, they're talkingabout like stress management
then they get to share that andit becomes less of I'm crazy
yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I made a connection.
Police officers we have theseprojections to police officers,
um, and we don't humanize themthe same way that we therapists
do not humanize ourselves whenwe're working in different
settings, right?
So then, like the way that wetherapists do not humanize
ourselves when we're working indifferent settings, right?
So then, like the projectionsthat we have and I was like,
wait a minute they have toanswer to someone the same way
that we answer to agency workthat we do insurances, medicaid,
(32:12):
schools.
So it's not different than that.
They have to respond to asetting and they have to adjust
to the setting in order to makea living.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yes, the same way that we do.
Yes, that's exactly it, and sothat's why I also encourage
people, even as they're comingup, like like know yourself well
enough now to know that youdon't have to be a yes man
number one, like, if the valuesof this system don't fit your
(32:45):
values, this isn't the systemfor you.
There are plenty of othersystems to work within.
And so you've got some peoplewho their nervous systems
naturally fit with, like ahigher, high capacity, high
volume, paced environment, andthey're good with that because
they they're very calm in thathigher functioning setting.
And you've got some people whoaren't very good in that.
(33:06):
I need a smaller, like ruralbased community where it's
relationships and even thoughyou put old jim bob over here in
jail, like he's gonna call younext week and be like, hey, can
you come help me?
Like I need to come, I need togo down the road, so it's like
look at your system.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And if your values aren't fitting well this is the
Demartini value stuff too, youknow like if your values are not
aligning well with thedepartment and the structure of
the system that you're in, lookfor a different system, and
you're allowed to do thatbecause you want to be able to
(33:43):
function optimally, making moneyin a system that aligns well
with you, so that you can gohome and be with your family
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
So, for all of you who are listening, let's link it
into what you do.
So, if you're working withMedicaid and that that's not
longer speaks to your values,you may move to private pay.
If you're working with anagency and that's no longer
because of the experience theyhave, that may look like you
moving into.
You know, a different settingpolice officers.
(34:07):
This is what I'm learning.
I'm humanizing them so muchtoday.
Which part of our already I wasalready doing with you,
especially since we were havingthose personal phone calls, um,
in regards to tell me what yourhubby's doing and how he's
saying things.
How are you doing with him?
You know doing that.
How are your kids are doing?
Um, those part of the, theconnections that we were doing?
Um, but is?
(34:27):
Um?
It's a population that need ourhelp and it needs us, as
therapists, to understand thesettings that they work with,
the expectations that they havein those settings, the
projections of society and how,a lot of the times, when they
don't have a grounded identity,they may get lost pretty much.
(34:47):
I have to be this all the time.
They're helpers too.
They think that they have to beon all the time, not different
than what we therapists tend todo ourselves, which is think
that we have to go and be thereall the time, and I love that.
Part of your job is providingpsychoeducation in regards to
(35:09):
who you are, what's youridentity, who am I in this
system?
What is your baseline when itcomes to regulation,
dysregulation?
And then, what's your identityoutside, how your hierarchy of
needs, how those are being metin order for you to fully show
up, not only in your personalbut your professional side,
(35:31):
because they impact each other.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yes, and that gives them that you know, as you
connect the parts to you, youcan jump less and less in
between.
You know, as you connect theparts to you, how you can jump
less and less in between theredoesn't have to be a polarity so
much, as most of the most ofthe time people are you know,
police officers are also there.
They function based on theirschedule.
(35:53):
You know, it's on duty, offduty, on duty, off, duty, on, on
, off, off, on, on on flop, youknow.
So it's like I haven't teachthat too.
Like, okay, that is literallyfor your schedule.
Okay, there are parts of youagain universally that don't
need to just be off.
Yeah, and there's a reallygreat book.
It's called Emotional Survivalfor Law Enforcement.
(36:14):
It is a simple read.
That's the one that I read.
It's beautiful because it talksabout the hypervigilance roller
coaster.
It talks about the couch potatomode, like it's.
It's just, it's such a gooddepiction of the on off
mentality that we have to doaway with so that again you can
kind of show up and your partsaren't as, yeah, up and down,
(36:39):
yeah, and that it's officer down, code three, not ten.
There are ten errors, it's codethree.
I just remembered that.
But that's a good book writtenin the 80s, and he just
basically relates like gettingyourself in bad positions and
yeah, it's.
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
But yeah, oh god, this was so good.
Uh, my mind is like trying tolink information, thank you.
Thank you for what you do.
I know you're only doing it inAlabama, but and I know you
don't have capacity you statednot having capacity, but I hope
(37:15):
you keep expanding your trainingbecause it's needed nationwide.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yes, I definitely look forward to.
I've talked about.
I just I've talked about takingit further needed nationwide.
Yes, I definitely look forwardto.
I've talked about.
I've talked about taking itfurther than virtual academy and
actually like getting myselfout there eventually with law
enforcement where I can go andput myself more in the
conferences, but I just haven't.
I think that's in the next likefive-ish years maybe.
(37:39):
So, that's definitely a goal,but yeah, thank you all so much
for having me.
I love conversations like this.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Maria, any final thoughts before we go?
Speaker 1 (37:53):
We'd love that.
No, I'm just so thankful thatyou and others like you are
doing this work because it's youknow it's not for everybody.
Like you are doing this work,Um, cause it's you know it's not
for everybody.
Not everybody has the capacityto humanize, um, even in the
therapist chair.
Right, we all have our own um,struggles and populations, Um,
but this is so, so important andit's only going to become more
(38:14):
and more.
Right Like this isn't going tobe something that's just going
to be quickly.
You know you're going to reacha level and be like fine,
everything is good, I'm notneeded anymore.
Right, Like we all wish wecould work ourselves out of a
job.
Right, Like that, that's theideal goal.
But I'm just so thankful thatthat you have your foot in both
worlds and can speak thelanguage and translate it back
(38:37):
and forth, so that policeofficers have the ability and
the opportunity to learn fromyou and to learn for themselves,
to better themselves, whichthen, in turn, betters their
work.
Right, I just love that thankyou.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
So thank you for being here.
Listeners until next time.
Um, please take care and umthank you and really talk soon.
welcome listeners to another episode of a hero's
welcome podcast.
We're very excited to have youtoday.
I'm your co-host, marila carriediego, and I'm here with my
lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
She's talking about me.
This is lillian raylan, uh, andwe are very excited today
because I have a special guest.
How, until how, do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
um, well, I guess, like I said, okay, so we were
just talking and a large part ofmy introduction is difficult
for me because I just introducedmyself as anjali um, but with
the the vibe of kind of what'sgoing on here today, we're going
to be definitely talking aboutwhat I do as far as being in the
counseling world, maybe being abusiness owner, and so I guess,
(00:48):
as far as credentials go, I'm alicensed professional counselor
supervisor.
I actually don't promote thatsupervision part because I find
it really hard at this point inmy career I'm still practicing
pretty hardcore.
So I don't promote that Isupervise because I feel like I
can't give as much time as Iwould like to give to my
supervisees, because I'm kind ofa sink or swim type of girl.
(01:10):
So I'm a licensed professionalcounseling supervisor.
I also am EMDR trained.
I'm a registered play therapist.
I do synergetic play.
I'm kind of all over the boardbecause I get bored very easily
and a large part of my niche, Iguess you could say, is heavily
(01:32):
involving me working with lawenforcement officers.
So my husband is a policeofficer.
He's been in law enforcementfor over 17 years and that's
kind of where my journey beganin this field.
I kind of became like the lawenforcement girl because I'm in
the club and um it's kind ofgrown from there.
(01:53):
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Like I said, first of all, you're not all over the
place, and that's what I loveabout you.
When we met um, do you want totell us how we met, because I
thought it was fucking hilarious, the best actually how long ago
was that?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
okay?
So we met at a play therapyconference.
It was really funny actually,because we were in terry cotman
class and, um, we were placed ina group in a family yeah and
there was a lot of movement andI'm definitely not like a let's
get out and move and dance andjellyfish around with these
people.
But we're at a play conference,right, we got to play.
(02:29):
And so we're in this group.
I happen to be placed withLiliana and Lisa Dion.
We have the best time, like wejust we were together.
And then Meredith, she was inthat, she was in our class,
right, yes, so we were literallythis family.
And then the rest of the timewe're like seeing each other at
(02:50):
the conference, we're like heyfam, hey fam, you know, like
we're family, whatever.
Well then I go into this, thisclass, and it's Lisa Dion's
class, and she gets up on stage.
I'm like who the like her stuff?
She's smart, she's smart.
Who are all these people, youknow?
So then over time, we just kindof like connected and grew and
(03:13):
then, um, we just we justclicked.
It was just a really good timeyeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So for all of you who are there who have not taken a
class with Terry, um, first ofall, if you know anything about
her, you know that it's a vibeand we all love her vibe.
And then in that group I had toturn around and faced you and
then you were supposed to justmimic whatever I did, and I was
like I ain't gonna so fuck withyou today.
(03:41):
And I did, and she joined meand we were just we couldn't
keep it straight.
I'm I'm surprised that I didnot pee my pants because you
just like went with it and thatwas our introduction.
So from that moment on,everyone thought that we knew
each other for years.
Yeah, but it was just thatclass, right.
(04:01):
So then I started asking youquestions so you share what your
husband did and I was like,well, tell me more.
I started learning how you weredoing trainings for the police
department and how you werehelping them from an SPT lens,
and then has expanded on how toattune, how to like understand
(04:24):
what they were going through andGod knows they were going
through a lot as well.
And then, like, you startsharing more and I was like, oh,
this is important work thatyou're doing and it still is.
So can you tell us a little bitmore of recent trainings that
you have done, or trainings thatyou have done and how the work
(04:45):
that you do being a mentalhealth therapist and being in
the club I love thatacknowledgement and being in the
club is helping you provideservices to them or trainings to
them?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
So what's interesting about this SPT lens is that a
lot of people on the outside I'mjust going to say on the
outside tend to focus on like,oh, look at those balloons, tend
to focus on what they see isthe issue, but really honestly,
in the field, like it's a job,you know what I mean.
(05:15):
So a lot of the time whatpeople don't look at is like
they're desensitized, and notnecessarily in a negative way,
to the things that they see.
Now, of course you've got, youknow, infant fatalities, officer
involved, shootings, differentthings like that that can be
heightened in nature, but forthe most part it was the same as
anybody that walks into myoffice and it's the breakdown of
the home, it's thedysregulation in the home.
(05:36):
And so synergetic play wasreally great because I'd already
done, I've done multipletrainings, I do peer support
stuff.
So peer support is cop to cop,but they always want me there
because I'm like a softer side.
Essentially I'm not always softbut I'm a softer side.
They listen to me more becauseI'm female.
(05:58):
But over the course of like mycareer, prior to even being in
like mental health, I worked inthe court system.
So a lot of my colleagues andfriends were also law
enforcement attorneys, so I'm inthat like legal world.
I worked for a judge for areally long time.
We did traffic court and so itwas really just relationships
that I built over the course oftime.
(06:19):
That kind of got me where I am.
And then they started askingfor me to come and speak and I
actually developed a trainingcalled 10 Deadly Errors in Law
Enforcement and it was off thisbook by.
It was called Code 10, officerDown, and I basically related
like the errors in lawenforcement to like mental
(06:40):
wellness, to try to bridge thetwo and speak to them in their
language so that I could alsode-stigmatize mental health in
the field.
And I actually got.
I had a really good friend Ibet it's about who you know too.
So I had a really good friendworking in the memorials, like
throughout the state of Alabama,who became like an advocate and
a coordinator with a virtualacademy which is a national
(07:01):
organization they provide freeCEUs to law enforcement and he
was like Anjali, you need tocome like teach through this
platform.
And I was like, okay, so Ibrought, I went up to Tennessee
and I was like it was hard forme because when I teach like
I've got to walk around and moveand you know the interaction is
like a huge part of likefeeling out like what you're
(07:24):
going to bring.
You know Lisa talks about thattoo, like, and at that point I'm
standing in between tape and Ican't move and I spoke for four
solid hours and I delivered mypresentation, but that
presentation is now likenational, so it's it's.
I still get emails to this dayof people who will like email me
from all over the US that likesaw it and all it is is really
(07:45):
just again, like stressmanagement.
It's destigmatizing what theysee.
It's asking the things thatLisa asked like well, what, if
you're OK, because you run intowith law enforcement, a lot of
people will claim I've gotpost-traumatic stress disorder.
Ok, well, that's also aperception most of the time and
we know that.
So I destigmatize that.
I definitely, like I do a lot ofnew higher evaluations now,
(08:09):
which are my most favorite thingto do.
So anytime you've got newbiepolice officers coming in, they
have to go through a psych.
Essentially, oh, okay, and Iactually have a template and I
kind of I'm looking for abaseline and I'm teaching them
about the nervous system andagain, spt across the board like
these are.
I normalize things.
I normalize that like I show upand I'm in my leggings and I'm
(08:31):
comfortable and I'm like this istherapy, like this is education
, and so my goal with them is toget them comfortable in a space
prior to entering the field andthen being highly aware of what
their baseline is prior toadjustments that occur, so that
over time if they need somethingand their baseline kind of
(08:51):
starts to waver, they actuallywill come back to me.
And it's been.
It's been awesome.
It was actually mandated almostthree years ago in the state of
Alabama that those evals are amandate in our state.
So I love that.
It's like I said, it's been fun.
I still I kind of hide more now, like I'm behind the scenes
(09:14):
working, but anytime there's abig like incident that occurs
like I will go and I will.
I'm still making relationshipswith all the different agencies
in our area, so it's just been areally fun thing.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So for all of them out there who, when you said,
like I'm hiding, I was like,well, you're not hiding, you're
in a different family than yourfamily.
So you're like super busybecause of your children?
Yes, right, so let's name thatout.
Because you're human, you are awife, you are a mother and
you're super busy because yourchildren are also super busy.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yes, big time athletes and I'm kind of
supporting their drive and, yeah, we're all very driven family,
so, but again, what's crazy is Imean I I'm very structured in
all of my things, but that doesleave little room for like extra
.
And I've gotten a lot bettertoo.
(10:08):
I've had people that will reachout and ask like, will you
teach on this or will you teachon anxiety in the classroom or
whatever?
And in the old days, like I'dbe like yeah, yeah, and I would
spend time developing,developing.
And then I realized, likeprobably two or three years ago,
I was like I don't want toteach on anything other than 10
deadly errors, like I want tolike hone in on that craft and
(10:30):
really promote that.
And so I've been saying no tocertain things and really kind
of just focusing on what I loveto teach on, which is that.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Which is a great message for anyone who's
listening out there.
Right, we just came from thebusiness of therapy.
We just came exactly discussingum.
For all of you who arelistening, business of therapy
is a program that lisa dion hasin addition to synergetic, which
is just helping you for two anda half days, three days, um, um
, if, if you uh decide to do theextra part, um, in regards to
(11:02):
um, what do you want to say yesto?
What do you say no to?
And metaphors that she usesthere.
But coming back to it, and Ithink that's why no, this is why
I know why I wanted to have youhere, because when we think
about police officers, we don'tthink of them as humans, and you
humanized them for me when Imet you and you were talking
about everything that yourhusband was going through, and
(11:27):
then how we can help them, howwe can talk about the stigma
that they have, the stigma thatthey deal, the projections as a
society that we tend to put onthem, when, in reality, it's not
them.
It's based on fears that we have, lack of knowledge that we have
not them.
It's based on fears that wehave, lack of knowledge that we
(11:48):
have and lack of understandingthe stressors that they have in
their job, which we all haveright.
So, for all of us who aretherapists and we're thinking,
what if a police officer comesand is seeking services?
How can I help them, how can Ihumanize them?
What is it that I need to knowabout their line of work?
That it has never crossed mymind, because if you're a play
(12:10):
therapist, you're just seekingtrainings about working with the
kiddos.
But what if their father?
What if their parents arepolice officers?
What is it that you need toknow about this system?
Yeah Right, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I think one of the biggest things also, you know,
lisa teaches like gettingyourself off the pedestal.
That's one of the biggestthings that I push and encourage
anybody to push when workingwith law enforcement.
It's easier for me, I think andthis is just me speaking from
my experience, just because,like I do live it, but also like
(12:44):
, so you know, they have thisidea that we were counselors on,
are on pedestals.
You know, like we're we'resubhuman at times.
For the love of God, we can'tbreak, we can't scream, we can't
be tired and overworkingourselves.
You know.
So it's like, weirdly, there'sa way to relate that, even as a
counselor to law enforcement andand kind of even say, like you
know, at the end of thebeginning phase of this is going
(13:06):
to be getting yourself off thepedestal.
Number one, because the worldplaces them on a pedestal, and
that's been super helpful for mepersonally, is trying to
separate the identity from thejob and work with the identity.
Because I tell people all thetime like this is like at the
end of the day, they you're abusiness move, that's the truth.
(13:28):
So I tell them, like you're abusiness move, they will replace
you the moment that you leave.
They don't.
It's not that they don't care,but it's kind of similar to even
running a group practice.
You know what I mean.
Like I love my counselors andwe are in the business of
feelings, but at the end of theday you're also a business move.
Like you're a 1099, you're acontractor, you can go, do
whatever you want, but you'restill a business move.
(13:50):
So you have to make sure thatyou're strong in your identity
outside of that field and it'sbeen.
That's really what I push withthat population, because I mean
I've worked with people from thebrand new baby 19 year old cops
who are like ready to changethe world, and then the cops
(14:10):
that are like 25 years in,literally asking themselves who
am I?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So there's a delayed response.
And who am I?
And my goal when I get themhere, as they're still in the
field, is to go ahead and figureout your identity prior to
retirement.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
So, if anything, it's again just de-stigmatizing,
like, okay, but who are yououtside of this job?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
yeah and getting them to actually kind of reflect in
on that versus what is wrongwith me yeah, I can see how that
might be difficult, oh gosh,when their job is really kind of
consuming, right like it is.
Um and two things like one isthe perception of police
(15:00):
officers, and in today's day andage it's not great.
They're not seen as safeindividuals, it's not seen as a
safe organization and we aregrouping them all together right
, yes, yes.
And so being able to like whoare you outside of this job and
(15:21):
how does that impact yourability to do your job and who
you are when you are putting onthat uniform, is very similar to
like who are we as therapistsoutside of putting on our you
know cardigan to be very clicheabout therapists, right, but I
think there's something to thatthat we I know and we've talked
(15:41):
about this before.
Liliato, in my training I was,I was told to check my identity
at the door and I was not me inthe clinic room, and you know
we're we're all speaking thesame synergetic language here
that we know that that's nottrue and that's not helpful,
right, that's not helpful, right.
(16:05):
So I can see you helping themfind their identity, not just
for themselves, forpost-retirement, but to keep
part of that humanity in a jobthat is very difficult to do is
not well supported by somecommunities, and keeping them
connected to that humanity pieceboth ways, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right.
So for all of you who arelistening, it's not that
different than the work that wealready do.
And the invitation is can yoube curious about this population
?
Because they're humans like youand me, right, and what we're
discussing today is like firstof all, let's get you off the
pedestal.
Um was your um, what's yourbaseline?
(16:48):
I love that a lot, actually.
What's your baseline so thatyou can recognize your
dysregulation?
What a beautiful invitation.
When you are dysregulated, whatcan you do to seek the support
that you need?
Either co-regulation, therapy,family, whatever it is, sports,
(17:10):
like, what is it that you need?
And then your identity who areyou outside this uniform and who
are you when you're in thatuniform?
What is required of you?
Both areas that is such aimportant work to do.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You feel heavy and it does take time for them to
trust that.
Like I said, you know, Ioperate also very maslow's.
Like, yeah, when I, when I saybaseline, I'm also looking at,
like you know, when people comein, I'm like okay, who's your
primary doctor?
And like why don't we make surethat your physical health is
(17:44):
good?
Yeah, because I mean I've hadclients who have come in
hallucinating because they'reiron loaders.
You know what I mean.
So like I'm very Maslow's, I'mvery ground from the bottom up,
so I make sure that they've gota good physical support system
when it comes to managing thatphysical health.
A good physical support systemwhen it comes to managing that
physical health, especiallybecause as stress starts to
(18:05):
compact, like you know, yourphysical health will start to
drain and then you lose sleep.
And so I mean there are timespeople will come in and I'm like
you don't drink enough waterand you're hungry.
You know like let's, let's geta routine around that and let's
orient to that part of you sothat when that part that you can
control is controlled well, theother parts are so much easier
(18:29):
to operate in.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And they um, they definitely receive that.
Well, it takes time because I'mlike I don't give a shit about
your problems, like I don't care, like you're, you're, you want
me to listen to you, but I'm notlistening to you until you
listen to me.
That's true.
That's where I'm at right nowand I work for some and I don't
work for others and for the mostpart, like people want the
truth, so I try to deliver thetruth pretty early on so that
(18:55):
they know and I teach themquickly how I operate.
Like I want you to feel betterquickly.
Have you ever seen stutz onnetflix?
Do?
you know who stutz is no, oh mygosh, do you know who?
Uh, what's that guy's name?
Jonah hill.
I know who that is.
Yeah, he does this.
There's this documentary onnetflix called stutz and it's
(19:17):
him with his therapist and Iknow it's hollywood, right, like
I'm sure who, who knows what.
All is real, but it seemspretty pretty real.
Okay, but Phil Stutz is also.
He's a psychologist in New York, like Jonah is one of his
clients and they do thisdocumentary together, which was
kind of taboo.
But Phil Stutz and the way heoperates is very much like that.
He was like you know, I'm goingthrough school, I'm hearing
everything that they're teachingme as a therapist and how to be
(19:39):
and how to operate, and samething that we've been kind of,
you know, broken with Lisa'steachings.
And he was like I noticed thatpeople are leaving and they're
not feeling okay and they're notfeeling better.
And he's like so I startedapproaching it from a different
angle and I told people thetruth up front, like this is
what you need to do, and if it'snot going to, if you're not
going to do it and you're notwilling to do it, say that, be
(19:59):
honest.
And so I've learned that overtime, the more honest you are,
even if there's risk for loss.
They're still going to rememberit, even if they decide that
you're not the fit.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, and how basic.
I was like how many of you whoare listening to us when we say
like, well, have you in, haveyou slept, have you been
drinking, have you beenhydrating?
And we're talking about water,and then others were like, oh
shit, no, we don't prioritizethat.
And how important, vital it is,and and how, because that
(20:34):
impacts how you feel and andyour capacity to respond.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So I think that's necessary for to even regulate
your nervous system, like it'sif you're dehydrated and your
system's already screaming.
And then you and I justrecently did an emdr training up
with annie monaco up in newyork.
Fabulous, love her, oh my gosh.
Yeah, and the way she operates.
I'm like there's on there, likeshe's like parts work.
(21:02):
We're not going to get thereuntil you do this Like, but it's
genuinely taking control of thebaseline so that as the things
come in that dysregulate youinto a dissociative part that
doesn't serve you well,necessarily, in that event you
can reorient to yourself.
So, it's brilliant stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And even when you said hydrate, I remember like
when we were hanging and all thebottles that you had, cause it
was water everywhere.
This woman hydrates and she'slike this is not enough.
I was like it is.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I've like traumatized myself with hydration stuff,
like I'm like, okay, what's thetruth?
Half my body weight when I'mthirsty, what is it, you know?
So I've even been working onlike that natural, like
intuitive part of me, that'slike yeah let me calm down a bit
when it comes to even thatwater pushing stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So I think that that goes to like societal messages
and even even medical messages,right, like it changes over time
.
Eggs are good for you.
Eggs are bad for you, right,like you need to have half your
body weight.
Actually, you only need eightglasses.
Well, what is a glass Like it?
It it's varied, right, as newinformation comes out, or who
(22:23):
you're listening to and whoyou're getting that information
from.
I think that that goes alongwith what is mental health,
right?
What is therapy really?
Look like, um, and I can seethat being extended to like what
is a police officer.
Yeah, what is the perception oflaw enforcement, right Cause we
(22:44):
have things that are likeprotect and serve, and then we
have shows like law and order,and then we have like really
what's happening in incommunities that that's not okay
, and then we have, you know, wealso have like really impactful
stories that show that they aregood people and like doing the
work and doing what they'resupposed to be doing.
So I think it's important to tobe like who are we listening to
(23:07):
?
Who are we getting that messagefrom?
And is it true?
Right, going back to theintuitiveness, is it true for us
?
Right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
and even beyond that right, because then is the
stereotypes that we're buildingaround professions or around
people?
Because when I think ofmilitary, when I think of police
officers, I think they aretrained to detach, they are
trained to do a job and societythem for doing that job, when
(23:41):
their training required you todo this.
So how do we help theindividual?
The same way that we're goingthrough a shift in mental health
, which is you get to show upand be you, you don't have to
have.
I love when you say like isthat why we all wear sweaters?
Part of like, oh, you're atherapist because you wear the
(24:02):
sweater.
Um, but um, it's.
How do we humanize and makesense of what is expected of
them because of their trainingand then the human side that
they have, that they don't getto show up, um, and I remember
um, working with the policeofficer and the first thing we
was doing emotionally focusedtherapy and the goal of
(24:25):
emotionally focused therapy,which is go to primary emotion.
And I remember talking to thisindividual and he said I cannot
afford to like completely be init, because as soon as I leave
here, I have to go and do this.
So then we started breaking itdown into parts what you were
(24:46):
saying, which is like, okay, inthis moment, when you are with
your significant other, what isit that is needed?
What are we asking of and howwe can be more?
How can we talk about parts sothat when you leave, you get to
put this part again because youhave to go function?
It's part of your survivalmechanism.
You are here with her.
(25:06):
What is it that we need whenyou're with your children?
What is it that you need?
Do they need the police officeror they need you?
So is this part?
But that helped me, because healso mentioned a book and I
don't have it here that I wentand read and I was crying when I
was reading and it was not theone that you mentioned um, code
10, um, but it was um and Iforgot the name of the book um.
(25:28):
But it helped me to humanizeand to make sense of oh, you
have to carry this defensemechanism all the time to do
what is required of you, whichis you know what you're teaching
now, which is what is it thatyou?
Which is you know what you'reteaching now, which is what is
it that you know about you,because you got the training on
how to be a police officer, gotit and it's going to be ongoing.
(25:48):
But what you're suggesting,which is how do we help
desensitize, first of all,mental health and then, in that
is, how do we help you treat thewhole person.
If I'm getting this right, whichis, tell me about your body,
what is it that it needs?
Are you resting?
Are you going to your wellnesscheck?
Are you eating?
(26:09):
Are you hydrating and we're nottalking about coffee, because
we all drink coffee, but, like,are you actually hydrating?
And, if so, when you come withme, what is it that you want to
accomplish with me?
Because I have an agenda when Ithink of mental health, but
what is it that you truly needfrom me?
What is it that you are awarewhen you're talking about your
baseline?
And then, what is it?
(26:30):
What is the goal of in orderfor you to go function in all
the parts that you'refunctioning?
And I think for me, since I metyou, which is, how do I
humanize what you want tohumanize and how do we work on
those defenses that you need inorder to survive?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Well, and law enforcement's filled with a lot
of shoulds, you know so.
So the thing about it too isone of the questions I ask.
Most of them is can youunderstand how you got here?
Because you've got they willget to the outside behavior.
How you got here because you'vegot they will get to the
outside behavior, which could beporn addiction and infidelity
and alcoholism and the copingright so like once they've
(27:09):
expanded to that style of coping, also even normalizing, how you
got to that style of coping.
You know, like the adrenaline,like you're essentially when
your nervous system is so usedto functioning at a higher state
.
Any time that you're actuallydown in a normal realm of
functioning it feels verydysregulating to you and you're
(27:30):
going to do anything you can tomake sure your nervous system is
creating that.
And it comes with all kinds ofdifferent things that anybody on
the outside would look at andshame because it's abnormal to
you.
Know, go out and do this or goout like constantly drink every
day.
So I try to get people to, evenin the beginning, like where
(27:53):
are you?
Like, let's normalize whereyou're at first.
Yeah, because if we can alsoslowly take control of the shame
cycle that comes in, whichcreates that obsession and the
compulsion, we can, we can doaway with the cycle of it.
We can understand how it gotthere and then we can work with
it, that we can reduce it.
So it's it's really hard to getpeople to understand like, oh,
(28:17):
that makes sense why I'maddicted to porn.
It makes sense that one of myvery first sexual experiences
was virtual.
You know, like it.
It makes sense that that's nowbeing reinforced because now
I've also tied my ejaculationwith regulating my nervous
system and anxiety that's beenbuilt up inside of me.
So it just takes time to getthem to get comfortable enough.
(28:37):
And now that comes with.
That's difficult too, as afemale work who works primarily
with males, because you've gotwives who also question like how
are you going in there and andtalking to your female therapist
about sex and ejaculation andokay.
So that's why I'm like, okay,well, let's also normalize this
for her.
(28:57):
Like let's get in here andunderstanding like what this is?
Because it comes with the wholeother level of they want to
trust you.
And then they sometimesquestion how can I trust you
with this but not get anybodyelse on the outside to
understand it?
yeah but I mean there's so manymultiple layers to every person
and then sometimes I get reallylucky and you know you've got
(29:17):
pretty solid.
You know police officers thatcome in that have had pretty
shitty lives and they'reextremely resilient individuals
that are very connected tothemselves and to their families
and they just soak up theknowledge and then they just
grow and grow and grow in thefield and those are the ones
that then become supervisors.
And then you know, if thosepeople are supervisors, well
(29:39):
then they're spreading all thelight that they naturally have
in them to their subordinates.
And so it's neat to learn eventhe different like police
departments and their structuresand like when I'm doing these
new hire evaluations, I'm likewhat police department are you
applying for?
You can almost tell if they'regoing to fit or not.
You're like, oh, that's notgoing to work there, son, you
(30:01):
know, like, but it's, it's justso neat to look at even the
police department as anindividual and to and to see the
structure of how they functionand who are the higher ups.
And that, and what I'm noticingtoo, is like a lot of the
people that are now in their 30sto 40s who are very, very open
to the newer, community-basedpolicing.
(30:24):
Things are getting a lot better.
Um, now, back in the day, youknow when there weren't body
cams and street justice andeveryone's you know old school
men duke it out.
You know like we settle it upfist to fist you know like that
was acceptable at a certain time.
You and now it's body cams andjudgment, and people are getting
(30:44):
better at being able tocommunity police.
But that also takes buildingrelationships with your
community, yeah, and so it'seven normalizing that with
people, and I'm finding morepeople between 30s and 40s are
very much more open to liketherapy and mental health and
wellness.
They're even trying to develop.
You've got police departmentsthat are wanting to develop like
(31:06):
mental health policy, and soI've been excited to help kind
of like sit with them and theirpolicies and look at it and be
like, hey, well, that'sbeautiful, but it also doesn't
fit here.
You know like that won't workbecause again, you still have to
operate like a business yeah soit's just, you know it's every
day is going to be an adjustmentand I think that as long as
(31:28):
there's more conversation aboutit and the more people that have
positive experiences where theycome in and they see that oh
okay, wait, they're talkingabout like stress management
then they get to share that andit becomes less of I'm crazy
yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I made a connection.
Police officers we have theseprojections to police officers,
um, and we don't humanize themthe same way that we therapists
do not humanize ourselves whenwe're working in different
settings, right?
So then, like the way that wetherapists do not humanize
ourselves when we're working indifferent settings, right?
So then, like the projectionsthat we have and I was like,
wait a minute they have toanswer to someone the same way
that we answer to agency workthat we do insurances, medicaid,
(32:12):
schools.
So it's not different than that.
They have to respond to asetting and they have to adjust
to the setting in order to makea living.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yes, the same way that we do.
Yes, that's exactly it, and sothat's why I also encourage
people, even as they're comingup, like like know yourself well
enough now to know that youdon't have to be a yes man
number one, like, if the valuesof this system don't fit your
(32:45):
values, this isn't the systemfor you.
There are plenty of othersystems to work within.
And so you've got some peoplewho their nervous systems
naturally fit with, like ahigher, high capacity, high
volume, paced environment, andthey're good with that because
they they're very calm in thathigher functioning setting.
And you've got some people whoaren't very good in that.
(33:06):
I need a smaller, like ruralbased community where it's
relationships and even thoughyou put old jim bob over here in
jail, like he's gonna call younext week and be like, hey, can
you come help me?
Like I need to come, I need togo down the road, so it's like
look at your system.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And if your values aren't fitting well this is the
Demartini value stuff too, youknow like if your values are not
aligning well with thedepartment and the structure of
the system that you're in, lookfor a different system, and
you're allowed to do thatbecause you want to be able to
(33:43):
function optimally, making moneyin a system that aligns well
with you, so that you can gohome and be with your family
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
So, for all of you who are listening, let's link it
into what you do.
So, if you're working withMedicaid and that that's not
longer speaks to your values,you may move to private pay.
If you're working with anagency and that's no longer
because of the experience theyhave, that may look like you
moving into.
You know, a different settingpolice officers.
(34:07):
This is what I'm learning.
I'm humanizing them so muchtoday.
Which part of our already I wasalready doing with you,
especially since we were havingthose personal phone calls, um,
in regards to tell me what yourhubby's doing and how he's
saying things.
How are you doing with him?
You know doing that.
How are your kids are doing?
Um, those part of the, theconnections that we were doing?
Um, but is?
(34:27):
Um?
It's a population that need ourhelp and it needs us, as
therapists, to understand thesettings that they work with,
the expectations that they havein those settings, the
projections of society and how,a lot of the times, when they
don't have a grounded identity,they may get lost pretty much.
(34:47):
I have to be this all the time.
They're helpers too.
They think that they have to beon all the time, not different
than what we therapists tend todo ourselves, which is think
that we have to go and be thereall the time, and I love that.
Part of your job is providingpsychoeducation in regards to
(35:09):
who you are, what's youridentity, who am I in this
system?
What is your baseline when itcomes to regulation,
dysregulation?
And then, what's your identityoutside, how your hierarchy of
needs, how those are being metin order for you to fully show
up, not only in your personalbut your professional side,
(35:31):
because they impact each other.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yes, and that gives them that you know, as you
connect the parts to you, youcan jump less and less in
between.
You know, as you connect theparts to you, how you can jump
less and less in between theredoesn't have to be a polarity so
much, as most of the most ofthe time people are you know,
police officers are also there.
They function based on theirschedule.
(35:53):
You know, it's on duty, offduty, on duty, off, duty, on, on
, off, off, on, on on flop, youknow.
So it's like I haven't teachthat too.
Like, okay, that is literallyfor your schedule.
Okay, there are parts of youagain universally that don't
need to just be off.
Yeah, and there's a reallygreat book.
It's called Emotional Survivalfor Law Enforcement.
(36:14):
It is a simple read.
That's the one that I read.
It's beautiful because it talksabout the hypervigilance roller
coaster.
It talks about the couch potatomode, like it's.
It's just, it's such a gooddepiction of the on off
mentality that we have to doaway with so that again you can
kind of show up and your partsaren't as, yeah, up and down,
(36:39):
yeah, and that it's officer down, code three, not ten.
There are ten errors, it's codethree.
I just remembered that.
But that's a good book writtenin the 80s, and he just
basically relates like gettingyourself in bad positions and
yeah, it's.
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
But yeah, oh god, this was so good.
Uh, my mind is like trying tolink information, thank you.
Thank you for what you do.
I know you're only doing it inAlabama, but and I know you
don't have capacity you statednot having capacity, but I hope
(37:15):
you keep expanding your trainingbecause it's needed nationwide.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yes, I definitely look forward to.
I've talked about.
I just I've talked about takingit further needed nationwide.
Yes, I definitely look forwardto.
I've talked about.
I've talked about taking itfurther than virtual academy and
actually like getting myselfout there eventually with law
enforcement where I can go andput myself more in the
conferences, but I just haven't.
I think that's in the next likefive-ish years maybe.
(37:39):
So, that's definitely a goal,but yeah, thank you all so much
for having me.
I love conversations like this.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Maria, any final thoughts before we go?
Speaker 1 (37:53):
We'd love that.
No, I'm just so thankful thatyou and others like you are
doing this work because it's youknow it's not for everybody.
Like you are doing this work,Um, cause it's you know it's not
for everybody.
Not everybody has the capacityto humanize, um, even in the
therapist chair.
Right, we all have our own um,struggles and populations, Um,
but this is so, so important andit's only going to become more
(38:14):
and more.
Right Like this isn't going tobe something that's just going
to be quickly.
You know you're going to reacha level and be like fine,
everything is good, I'm notneeded anymore.
Right, Like we all wish wecould work ourselves out of a
job.
Right, Like that, that's theideal goal.
But I'm just so thankful thatthat you have your foot in both
worlds and can speak thelanguage and translate it back
(38:37):
and forth, so that policeofficers have the ability and
the opportunity to learn fromyou and to learn for themselves,
to better themselves, whichthen, in turn, betters their
work.
Right, I just love that thankyou.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
So thank you for being here.
Listeners until next time.
Um, please take care and umthank you and really talk soon.
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