February 21, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when the pressure to be "twice as perfect" meets the complexities of cultural identity? Join us as trauma therapist and author Vanessa Pezo unravels this very question in our latest episode. Vanessa's groundbreaking book, "The Latinx Guide to Liberation," provides a powerful framework for understanding the pressures Latinos face navigating American and Latino cultural expectations. Through the lens of iconic stories like "Selena" and the personal narratives of immigrants, Vanessa sheds light on the profound impact of historical and generational trauma. Her insights challenge prevailing stereotypes, urging us to honor the rich tapestry of immigration stories that underscore the invaluable contributions of the Latinx community.
Together, we explore the critical importance of community and a shared language in addressing acculturative stress and emotional complexity. Vanessa discusses the limitations of traditional diagnostic tools like the DSM in capturing the unique experiences of Latinos and other multicultural identities. Her advocacy for radical imagination invites us to envision a world beyond existing systems, fostering healing and connection in a fragmented society. As we celebrate the launch of Vanessa’s book, she shares the joyous anticipation of her next personal chapter, including the arrival of a new family member, reminding us of the power of embracing and celebrating our stories.
Buy the Latinx Guide to Liberation: Healing from Historical, Generational, and Individual Trauma at Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Use the code PEZO20 for 20% off. You can also find the book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and on Bookshop.org.Â
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria (00:02):
Welcome back listeners for another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, MarielaCaradiego, and I'm here with my
ever well-read co-host.
Liliana (00:12):
That's me, Princess Liliana.
I'm still adapting that namebecause I like it.
I'm just kidding.
This is Liliana Baylon.
I'm an LMFT, and we're herewith Vanessa.
Vanessa, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Vanessa (00:26):
Hello everyone.
My name is Vanessa Pezo, and Iam a trauma therapist based in
Long Beach, California.
I'm a Latina, I am Mexican onmy mom's side and Ecuadorian on
my dad's side, and I am theauthor of an upcoming book, the
Latinx Guide to LiberationHealing from Historical,
generational and IndividualTrauma, that is coming out today
(00:49):
, right February 21, 2025, wheneveryone will be hearing this
yes, so please, as soon as youhear this, go get the book.
Liliana (00:59):
Like I mentioned, I had the privilege of reading the
book before it went out and Ijust couldn't stop talking about
it.
I share with Vanessa, I sharewith Maria and I truly love the
work that you did on this book.
So thank you.
Maria (01:14):
Thank you.
You know it's important ifLiliana is reaching directly out
to the author of a book,because she reads a lot of books
and she does not contact all ofthe authors, so you know it's
an important read for her whenshe does that, and then it's
quick to share it with the restof our group.
So this is a book that needs tobe on your radar and this is
(01:35):
someone that you need to knowabout.
Liliana (01:38):
That's right.
So everyone is doing it.
Maria has a Maria.
Vanessa has a Maria too.
Vanessa has a big platform insocial media, but if you do not
know, we will include all hersocial media so that you can
contact her.
But yeah, vanessa is amazing inwhat she's posting online.
Vanessa, tell us a little bitabout your book.
(01:58):
If you wanted to describe it,how would you describe it?
Vanessa (02:03):
It's really a book for Latinos and so I actually open
it up.
The dedication is I do dedicateit to all of my fellow Latinos
who have ever struggled to feellike they are enough and at the
end of the day, that's reallywho.
I'm targeting this towards myfellow Latinos who have had
maybe similar and differentexperiences, such as mine
growing up in the US, and havehad to navigate all of the
(02:27):
complexities around identity andbelonging and enoughness.
I hope to just give backgroundand information that helps us
make a little bit more sense ofour experience and take off some
of that individual pressurethat it's this individual
problem If you don't feel likeyou fit in or you don't feel
(02:49):
like you're validated, and openit up to a bigger perspective
that shows us that a lot ofthat's by design and where it
comes from and how it impacts us.
Liliana (02:57):
I love that you jump in there because the chapter twice
as perfect.
When I started reading it whichis not fair for maria that she
has not read it, but she's gonnaget her her copies in when you
talk about the chapter and youuse the movie clip of selena, I
started laughing.
So, maria, have you everwatched, uh, the selena movie?
(03:18):
Yes, of course there is a aclip.
Is it okay if we talk about it?
Of course Okay.
So in the movie where Selena isgoing to give a concert, she was
excited she wants to go give aconcert in Mexico and then
realized that Selena does notspeak Spanish.
Welcome to all of us who do nothave a perfect Spanish because
we've been living in the US forso long.
(03:38):
And her dad I forgot theactor's name who portrays Thank
you, he goes twice as perfect.
How we have to be perfectenough here in the US and not
have an accent and speak perfectEnglish.
And then when we go to ourcountry of origin not just
(04:00):
Mexico then we need to have theperfect Spanish, because if not,
we're just never enough.
So the idea of twice as, twiceas perfect, it's something that
all of us who are Latinotherapists in the US or just
Latinos period.
Feel that pressure, it's one ofour core, like we have to be
enough in both worlds.
Vanessa (04:21):
Yeah yeah, no, I, when I was writing that chapter, I
thought like what is somethinglike an example of this, because
there's other terms people use,like something people will say
like ni de aquà ni de allá, andthat kind of has its own
sentiment and energy.
But I have always just thoughtthat the way he puts it there,
of having to be, he goes, wehave to be more Mexican than the
(04:42):
Mexicans and more American thanthe Americans, and this
double-sided pressure that's sointense that we feel and then
you often are like, well, Idon't measure up in either.
Liliana (04:52):
Yes, right, and even when you said it, I don't
measure up in neither Like thedrop that we all can get
familiar, either because you canidentify it or apply it as
gender inequality If you'refemale and it's just not enough.
Um, if it's uh, you know,whatever it applies in in so
many levels, not just inethnicity, but you're absolutely
(05:14):
right.
Um, that was like somethingthat I started laughing because
I identified, and then it waslike laughing, crying I.
I was like that's right, will Iever be enough?
Will I ever be enough?
Not enough Mexican and notenough American, because it's
always the other important.
The other chapter that I reallyenjoy and I'm going that in
(05:38):
chronological order is themigration stories matter.
Can you tell us a little bitmore?
Vanessa (05:44):
Yes, so I have a chapter in the book called
Immigration Stories Matter andthe idea around it is that in
the United States, andespecially now, we have these
narratives around immigrants andpeople talk about immigrants
obviously in a really negative,disrespectful and dehumanizing
way, as people who come in andthey're here to take or they
(06:06):
don't contribute to society, orthey are breaking laws or all of
these different tropes andstereotypes that we have around
immigration.
And I've always wanted in mywork with people to open up to
bigger perspectives, not just onyour individual experience and
not just on your familyexperience and not just on your
family experience, but likewhat's the context that all of
(06:28):
that happens within?
And so I talk about the waythat the United States has
intervened in countries aroundthe world, especially in Mexico
and Latin America, throughthings like their economic
policy, like NAFTA, the freetrade agreement between Mexico
and Canada, and also in theirdisruption of the political
systems in other countries, sofinancing coups, backing
(06:51):
right-wing militias,overthrowing governments, and
how that actually leads toimmigration.
And so I think I have a line inthe book that like eventually
people realize that one of thebest ways to avoid living in a
society where the United Statesis going to come in and
overthrow your government isthat you then have to live in
the United States.
(07:11):
That's one of the only ways toprotect yourselves from it.
And so people get like vilifiedas immigrants for wanting to
come to the United States forsafety, security or resources or
for you know a lot of otherreasons.
But why are they leaving homein the first place?
Right, most people would preferto stay in the place that they
(07:31):
have a connection to and ahistory in, but we have and when
I say we, I mean the UnitedStates have made it where people
are unable to do that, and so,you know, there is this
experience of really like forcedmigration, where you are really
unable to stay in the placethat you've maybe had
generations and generations andgenerations, and it's not
(07:53):
necessarily your fault.
The US plays a big role, yetwe're the ones that get targeted
and we're the ones that aremade to be the problem.
Maria (08:01):
When.
Americans are problem when whenamericans are immigrants
themselves.
Yes, I say as a as a as a whitewoman in the room all right, we
, we are, we are immigrants.
This was not our land, yeahright it would be really
convenient for us to forget thatyeah.
Vanessa (08:24):
And also the idea of you know, sometimes there's
those sentiments.
People who are anti-immigrationwill say, well, my ancestors
came here the right way, quote,unquote, the right way.
And so I do even talk a littlebit in that chapter about how
immigration policy changed overtime and became more restrictive
, and so sure, if you want tosay your grandparents or great
grandparents came the right way,what was the right way?
(08:46):
They showed up and there wasn'treally any narrative around
being documented andundocumented.
It wasn't until the immigrantswere Black and brown and not
white, basically that all of asudden we have this new
narrative around the right wayand create all of these systems
and rules and visas and caps andquotas, that, uh, we have the
(09:11):
narrative from today.
Maria (09:13):
Well, and you, you said it perfectly, we made them up
yeah the policies are made upbased on a handful of people's
preferences, beliefs, agendas,but they're made up right, so go
ahead.
I'm just I was super curious.
(09:33):
I know that this is this iscoming out and a lot of us uh, I
feel like it's very timely, butclearly the work went into it
before last month's uh, events,um, but I'm wondering what?
Because writing a book is nojoke.
This, this, is a labor of love.
Was there something inparticular that like lit the
(09:54):
fire for you to put pen to paperand put this out?
Vanessa (09:59):
I think the book is really a collection of a lot of
the things that I've been reallyfortunate to learn along the
way through my own journey ofhealing, through my own
education, and so I've been ableto almost like collect
information over time, and Ialways say to people sometimes I
will have an experience withone of my clients and I'll be
(10:20):
like, oh my God, I'm so glad Itook that class in community
college 10 years ago, cause nowI know what they're talking
about in this moment, likethings kind of unfold in a
particular way.
But one of the big motivatorsor I would say like catalyst is
maybe a better word I had acouple of TikTok videos that did
really well in maybe aroundlike 2022-ish, and one of them
(10:44):
was about a culture of stressthat like kind of twice as
perfect pressure and how, forLatinx people, we would assume
that coming to the US makestheir life better in a lot of
ways, and in some ways it does,but actually it can be really
harmful to our mental healthwhen we live in the US, and
there are some studies that showthe longer we're here in the US
(11:06):
, the worse our mental healthoutcomes get, and so I had made
some videos about that and I hada huge response and people were
relating to it so much and itopened up so many conversations.
And one thing people would askme is where can I learn more
about this?
And I would say, uh well, Imean you can read like this book
talks about this little bit ofit, and this article but it's
(11:29):
kind of an academic article, butit talks a little bit about it
and you know, there was no oneplace I could send people that
was written specifically forLatinos and that was written for
a general audience.
A lot of it had come from morelike textbooks and trainings in
school and academic journals.
And so I realized that therewas a huge need for something
(11:54):
that talked specifically to aLatinx audience about mental
health but that incorporated notjust like that kind of like
individual lens a lot ofself-help is but that really
brought in the cultural piecesand the societal pieces and the
historical pieces pieces and thehistorical pieces.
(12:18):
And so when the opportunityarose and I met an editor with
Jessica Kingsley publisher,who's my publisher, I just said
to myself you know, thisopportunity presented itself to
me and I should just take it, Ishould just run with it.
Liliana (12:28):
And it went fast and it's going to go on fast ever
since, but that's how it startedI love that and I am so
grateful for it, because we doneed, not only because of how
you broke down the chapters, butnot only just as Latinos
because we need to seerepresentation, but because of
what you just mentioned, whichis there's no class that we can
(12:50):
take in order to help us, notonly to make sense of what we're
working with, but what do wename it when in our training
proper trainings per se we don'thave this.
We only have stereotypes.
What you did in your book isyou humanize, and that's what we
need.
Can we be curious about theperson in front of me that comes
(13:13):
from Latin America or is just anewcomer?
And then, what is thedifference when I'm working with
one who is first generation,versus second generation, versus
third generation?
What you're just describingright, which is true, the third
generation is dealing withhigher levels of anxiety and
depression, and most people willsay but why?
(13:35):
Because you've been here, thelonger you're separated from
this generational trauma.
But it's the other stressorsthat come with.
You know some that we havementioned, but it is true in
regards to the longer that thisstays.
Now that it gets better, maybethe financial piece, maybe we
start building other stuff,maybe you're not living with the
cartels, but you know we haveother stuff dealing right now.
(13:57):
Yet is the mental health piecein regards to the third
generation and what they dealwith, that we don't get trained,
yeah.
Maria (14:08):
That continues to be one of our talking points, liliana,
is that when we talk aboutdiversity and we talk about
different cultures generally,what we're given is stereotypes
and not authentic experiences,and often not from the
population that we are talkingabout yeah, no, this is what I
love.
Liliana (14:27):
Uh, as I started following you a while back, that
sounds like I'm stalking you.
Maria (14:32):
She was, that's fine it's not stalking, it's fangirling.
Liliana (14:37):
Liliana fangirl but I've been following you for a
while.
So when I because I was like,how do I came across but it was
through the publisher that I gotto learn about you in the book
context that I was like, oh yeah, what you've been doing for us.
You've been doing this for awhile already, trying to make
sense and organize it in a waythat all of us were working with
(15:00):
this population, have a commonlanguage, but also, how do we
organize it for clients?
So you've been on it for awhile already.
Vanessa (15:11):
Yeah, and I mean, it's also even my own journey as a
therapist and working withLatinas and Latinos and Latinx
people, trying to understand howto present this to my clients
in a way that is empowering andhelps them in their own journey.
And I find that sometimes justhaving a name for something is
(15:32):
so powerful, because it's notjust this like mysterious
feeling I'm having and I don'tknow where it comes from, but
once I can say like, for example, the twice is perfect.
The mental health term for thatis acculturative stress.
Right, trying to balance twocultures at once creates
acculturative stress, and so nowI can actually name this as
(15:52):
something and there is power inthat right.
It's now something I can grasp,or I can kind of hold on to and
understand and be reflective ofthese opportunities to talk and
share our experiences, becausewe're not all experiencing them
in the same way, yes, but we arefeeling elements of them as a
(16:23):
collective.
Liliana (16:25):
Oh, love it.
Music to my ears, right.
Which is now you started namingthe different kinds of not only
traumas, but stress thatLatinos are dealing with, and
actually other cultures too,instead of when we go to the DSM
book and it's like can this fitthe PTSD, which is the umbrella
for everything that you're justnaming, and not having that
(16:47):
common language just with everyother therapist, because if I
say those terms, they'll be likewhat are you talking about?
Vanessa (17:01):
Is that in the DSM book?
Yet you have this ability inthis book again to name a lot of
these things.
Yeah, provide those definitions, and so I'm hopeful that you
know.
Just having that language in asense is empowering to some
people to be able to say this issomething that I can connect
with and relate to.
Maria (17:14):
I want to build community right.
I mean, that's one of thethings that Liliana shared, even
just in the beginning of thiswas like.
That spoke to my experience.
It was nice to hear it, but itwasn't just me, I'm not the only
one struggling with this oradjusting to this, and I can
only imagine I mean, we've seethis across our country.
But communities are so, soimportant now for people, for
(17:38):
individuals to find safety, tofind healing, to find connection
in a world that, while we'reconnected through the Internet,
feels very disjointed andisolated.
And isolated, yeah.
Liliana (17:51):
Yeah.
So I'm curious when I say isthere a chapter that you were
like, oh, this was either hardto write or one that you enjoyed
the most?
Vanessa (18:02):
Ooh, that's a great question.
I will say, a chapter that Ifound was hard to write, I think
, was the chapter on historicaltrauma.
It's just such a heavy topicand I wrote that chapter after I
had written the chapters oncolonization and the trauma of
colonization.
(18:22):
I had written the chapter onrace and white supremacy,
culture, and so to come to thechapter of really talking
directly about historical traumaand all that it entails, like
it said, there's so muchheaviness there and also it was
kind of putting all of thattogether of how does that live
on today in our culture and ourcommunities and our bodies, and
(18:44):
so I found myself really takingtime through that because it is
just a very big, you know, painfor all of us to contend with,
and so that's definitely where Inoticed myself really having to
take care and to kind of takethat on the slower side.
(19:06):
I had a lot of fun with a lot ofthe other chapters, right, the
twice is perfect chapter thatyou talked about with the
culture distress.
I love writing about thatbecause I find that that's
really one of those things thatpeople can really immediately
attach to, yeah, and not evenjust Latinos, right, but most
people can have and they canreflect on some time where they
(19:27):
could feel that kind of mismatch, even if it's just sometimes
like you might switch jobs andyou're going to a new job and
the culture at this new job isvery different from the one that
you've come from.
Or your family moves citiesright, and now you're in a very
different type of environmentthan you were before, and so
I've always loved that topicbecause I find it's really one
that really brings peopletogether right away.
(19:47):
I actually was just doing myaudio book and my director for
my audio book was an immigrantfrom New Zealand and when we
finished that chapter he waslike, wow, that's what I was
feeling, a culture of stress,and he had questions for me
about it and we talked about it,and so I love that even he was
able to connect.
So that was another fun one.
(20:08):
And then some of the laterchapters where I talk about like
when we need and kind of havingthis radical imagination for
liberation and what we want tocreate, I always really enjoy,
because that's part of like theart and the creativity of
seeking liberation is what couldbe a world we would build
outside of all of these systemsand what would healing really
(20:30):
look like, and that's a reallyamazing exercise to be able to
witness people take part in.
Maria (20:37):
Yeah, love it.
Beautiful, and I know today islaunch day for you, but what are
you working on?
What are you working on now?
What am I working on?
Vanessa (20:48):
now?
Yeah, but what are you workingon?
What are you working on now?
What am I working on now?
Well, you know, I really wantto just kind of enjoy this book
process and see what comes of it.
I've really felt like there hasbeen so much that's come into
this and it's been, I think, noteven just a personal sacrifice,
(21:11):
but like a family sacrifice,like with my husband's support
to me as I wrote this book.
So I'm happy to just kind ofwitness this book be out in the
world and not just an idea in myhead.
And I am also expecting a babyin April and so I'll be taking
some time, and so this is reallyjust a time for me to have.
You know, I was really hittingthe gas pedal for a long time
and now I think I'm gonna kindof just coast and see where life
takes me for a bit yeah,absolutely.
Maria (21:33):
I mean, you put one baby out into the world, you've got
another one coming.
Vanessa (21:36):
It's fair to be able to enjoy that process yeah, so
I'm excited for just this, thisnext chapter and what it will
bring, and I'm open to all of it.
Liliana (21:46):
Oh, love it, that's a nice affirmation.
I am open, right to all of it.
Oh, love it, that's a niceaffirmation.
I am open for all of it.
Oh God, is there something thatyou wish you would have added?
Now, as you're reflecting, asyou're doing, the audio that
you're like, I wish I would havetalked about this.
Vanessa (22:05):
I don't know that there's like any big topic that
I wish I would have added,because I think this is
something that I covered a lotof different stuff.
I will just say now so much hashappened since I turned in this
original manuscript, right?
So, even though it's now goingto be February 2025, this book
has really been done for almosta year and just gone back and
(22:26):
forth with the editing processfor almost a year and just gone
back and forth with the editingprocess.
And so just now, witheverything that's happening in
the United States, with thepolitical climate and just you
know, the fear and uncertaintythat we're all living with, I do
sometimes think like, well, Iwish I could have spoken to some
of this now more directly, butI don't know that any of us
(22:47):
really could have anticipatedthat this is where we would find
ourselves here at the beginningof 2025.
Maria (22:52):
Um, no, absolutely.
Vanessa (22:55):
Absolutely.
Maria (22:56):
And and I think this is one of those you know, you, you
put it out and then immediatelythe world continues and things
continue to happen.
I think it's the topic thatwill continuously be on the move
and adjusting and experienceswill continue to happen and
policies will be created andadapted.
And you know, and I think thatthis is going to become just a
(23:19):
living document out there forpeople, it's not an end all
point.
I think the discussion aboutculture and generational trauma,
colonization there isn't just aone-liner and then you know it
right, and it's never going tochange.
Vanessa (23:34):
I think this is really important to keep in mind too,
that this is going to be kind ofa living document that
continues to adapt and unravelas we experience all the changes
in the world that we have rightnow we experience all the
changes in the world that wehave right now, yeah, and I am
(23:55):
hopeful right that having alittle bit of a foundation of
historical trauma, generationaltrauma, individual trauma, you
know, culture distress, thatsome of those things people will
be able to say, well, I cankind of critically apply that to
what I'm seeing now, or maybehave a little bit of a different
lens that they can put towardssome of what's happening.
Because we really are beingexposed to such high levels of
(24:16):
stress right now and I thinkthat's on purpose right.
It's by design that they'regoing to throw all of this
negativity out and all of thesewild policies out and hope to
just put us into a space ofshutting down.
And perhaps, if we understandwhat's happening, we can make
more intentional decisions sothat we can avoid feeling
(24:39):
disconnected or shut down andhave routes we can take to find
agency and resource ourselves asneeded and have a bit of space
for ourselves to heal.
Still.
Liliana (24:51):
Beautiful, beautiful, stated.
So again, everyone, this is abook that is released today.
The Latin, the Latin, the Latinoh God, I cannot even pronounce
it.
The Latin X the Latin Guide toLiberation.
This is when I know that, one Ihad enough coffee.
Two, my brain wants to switchto Spanish.
(25:11):
Does that happen to you,vanessa?
When my brain is like no, sayit in Spanish, it just does this
on me.
So I'm like oh god you knowwhat?
Vanessa (25:23):
no, so my first language was Spanish and then,
um, I've been, I still speaksome Spanish and I am more
fluent in English now, over theyears, which is something we
talk about in the book too,about, like, how language
changes over generations.
But you know, even like theidea of the word Latinx, we have
to talk about in the book thehistory even of that, of why I
(25:43):
would use it, because that hasits own narrative and there's a
lot there too.
Liliana (25:50):
Oh, I think we can write a whole not even book,
right About labels, when itcomes to the labels that were
given here in the US, becausewhen you go to Latin America,
either you're Mexican or you'reHonduran.
Like you have this, you don'thave all these things, the
exception of the US.
So even as my brain was tryingto reconcile that cause, I was
(26:11):
like, oh my God, what is it?
But that's the whole newpodcast that we can totally do
and that's the whole new bookjust on labels that we're given
when we are othering.
But I'm so excited about yourbook, I'm so excited about
everyone reading this book.
I cannot say enough about it.
I wish you so many blessingswith this book and, again, thank
(26:36):
you for writing it, because weneed it more than ever.
Vanessa (26:40):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you both forhaving me and giving me space to
talk about it and to share thatwith your audience.
I hope people find it to behelpful or maybe even empowering
, and I have loved to talk toyou both today.
Maria (26:53):
Thank you so much.
We'll include all of yourcontact information and direct
links so that they can purchasetheir own copy and put together
their own book club and workthrough this very important text
you put out.
Thank, you.
Till next time, guys.
Vanessa (27:11):
Bye.
Maria (27:12):
Bye.
Welcome back listeners for another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, MarielaCaradiego, and I'm here with my
ever well-read co-host.
Liliana (00:12):
That's me, Princess Liliana.
I'm still adapting that namebecause I like it.
I'm just kidding.
This is Liliana Baylon.
I'm an LMFT, and we're herewith Vanessa.
Vanessa, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Vanessa (00:26):
Hello everyone.
My name is Vanessa Pezo, and Iam a trauma therapist based in
Long Beach, California.
I'm a Latina, I am Mexican onmy mom's side and Ecuadorian on
my dad's side, and I am theauthor of an upcoming book, the
Latinx Guide to LiberationHealing from Historical,
generational and IndividualTrauma, that is coming out today
(00:49):
, right February 21, 2025, wheneveryone will be hearing this
yes, so please, as soon as youhear this, go get the book.
Liliana (00:59):
Like I mentioned, I had the privilege of reading the
book before it went out and Ijust couldn't stop talking about
it.
I share with Vanessa, I sharewith Maria and I truly love the
work that you did on this book.
So thank you.
Maria (01:14):
Thank you.
You know it's important ifLiliana is reaching directly out
to the author of a book,because she reads a lot of books
and she does not contact all ofthe authors, so you know it's
an important read for her whenshe does that, and then it's
quick to share it with the restof our group.
So this is a book that needs tobe on your radar and this is
(01:35):
someone that you need to knowabout.
Liliana (01:38):
That's right.
So everyone is doing it.
Maria has a Maria.
Vanessa has a Maria too.
Vanessa has a big platform insocial media, but if you do not
know, we will include all hersocial media so that you can
contact her.
But yeah, vanessa is amazing inwhat she's posting online.
Vanessa, tell us a little bitabout your book.
(01:58):
If you wanted to describe it,how would you describe it?
Vanessa (02:03):
It's really a book for Latinos and so I actually open
it up.
The dedication is I do dedicateit to all of my fellow Latinos
who have ever struggled to feellike they are enough and at the
end of the day, that's reallywho.
I'm targeting this towards myfellow Latinos who have had
maybe similar and differentexperiences, such as mine
growing up in the US, and havehad to navigate all of the
(02:27):
complexities around identity andbelonging and enoughness.
I hope to just give backgroundand information that helps us
make a little bit more sense ofour experience and take off some
of that individual pressurethat it's this individual
problem If you don't feel likeyou fit in or you don't feel
(02:49):
like you're validated, and openit up to a bigger perspective
that shows us that a lot ofthat's by design and where it
comes from and how it impacts us.
Liliana (02:57):
I love that you jump in there because the chapter twice
as perfect.
When I started reading it whichis not fair for maria that she
has not read it, but she's gonnaget her her copies in when you
talk about the chapter and youuse the movie clip of selena, I
started laughing.
So, maria, have you everwatched, uh, the selena movie?
(03:18):
Yes, of course there is a aclip.
Is it okay if we talk about it?
Of course Okay.
So in the movie where Selena isgoing to give a concert, she was
excited she wants to go give aconcert in Mexico and then
realized that Selena does notspeak Spanish.
Welcome to all of us who do nothave a perfect Spanish because
we've been living in the US forso long.
(03:38):
And her dad I forgot theactor's name who portrays Thank
you, he goes twice as perfect.
How we have to be perfectenough here in the US and not
have an accent and speak perfectEnglish.
And then when we go to ourcountry of origin not just
(04:00):
Mexico then we need to have theperfect Spanish, because if not,
we're just never enough.
So the idea of twice as, twiceas perfect, it's something that
all of us who are Latinotherapists in the US or just
Latinos period.
Feel that pressure, it's one ofour core, like we have to be
enough in both worlds.
Vanessa (04:21):
Yeah yeah, no, I, when I was writing that chapter, I
thought like what is somethinglike an example of this, because
there's other terms people use,like something people will say
like ni de aquà ni de allá, andthat kind of has its own
sentiment and energy.
But I have always just thoughtthat the way he puts it there,
of having to be, he goes, wehave to be more Mexican than the
(04:42):
Mexicans and more American thanthe Americans, and this
double-sided pressure that's sointense that we feel and then
you often are like, well, Idon't measure up in either.
Liliana (04:52):
Yes, right, and even when you said it, I don't
measure up in neither Like thedrop that we all can get
familiar, either because you canidentify it or apply it as
gender inequality If you'refemale and it's just not enough.
Um, if it's uh, you know,whatever it applies in in so
many levels, not just inethnicity, but you're absolutely
(05:14):
right.
Um, that was like somethingthat I started laughing because
I identified, and then it waslike laughing, crying I.
I was like that's right, will Iever be enough?
Will I ever be enough?
Not enough Mexican and notenough American, because it's
always the other important.
The other chapter that I reallyenjoy and I'm going that in
(05:38):
chronological order is themigration stories matter.
Can you tell us a little bitmore?
Vanessa (05:44):
Yes, so I have a chapter in the book called
Immigration Stories Matter andthe idea around it is that in
the United States, andespecially now, we have these
narratives around immigrants andpeople talk about immigrants
obviously in a really negative,disrespectful and dehumanizing
way, as people who come in andthey're here to take or they
(06:06):
don't contribute to society, orthey are breaking laws or all of
these different tropes andstereotypes that we have around
immigration.
And I've always wanted in mywork with people to open up to
bigger perspectives, not just onyour individual experience and
not just on your familyexperience and not just on your
family experience, but likewhat's the context that all of
(06:28):
that happens within?
And so I talk about the waythat the United States has
intervened in countries aroundthe world, especially in Mexico
and Latin America, throughthings like their economic
policy, like NAFTA, the freetrade agreement between Mexico
and Canada, and also in theirdisruption of the political
systems in other countries, sofinancing coups, backing
(06:51):
right-wing militias,overthrowing governments, and
how that actually leads toimmigration.
And so I think I have a line inthe book that like eventually
people realize that one of thebest ways to avoid living in a
society where the United Statesis going to come in and
overthrow your government isthat you then have to live in
the United States.
(07:11):
That's one of the only ways toprotect yourselves from it.
And so people get like vilifiedas immigrants for wanting to
come to the United States forsafety, security or resources or
for you know a lot of otherreasons.
But why are they leaving homein the first place?
Right, most people would preferto stay in the place that they
(07:31):
have a connection to and ahistory in, but we have and when
I say we, I mean the UnitedStates have made it where people
are unable to do that, and so,you know, there is this
experience of really like forcedmigration, where you are really
unable to stay in the placethat you've maybe had
generations and generations andgenerations, and it's not
(07:53):
necessarily your fault.
The US plays a big role, yetwe're the ones that get targeted
and we're the ones that aremade to be the problem.
Maria (08:01):
When.
Americans are problem when whenamericans are immigrants
themselves.
Yes, I say as a as a as a whitewoman in the room all right, we
, we are, we are immigrants.
This was not our land, yeahright it would be really
convenient for us to forget thatyeah.
Vanessa (08:24):
And also the idea of you know, sometimes there's
those sentiments.
People who are anti-immigrationwill say, well, my ancestors
came here the right way, quote,unquote, the right way.
And so I do even talk a littlebit in that chapter about how
immigration policy changed overtime and became more restrictive
, and so sure, if you want tosay your grandparents or great
grandparents came the right way,what was the right way?
(08:46):
They showed up and there wasn'treally any narrative around
being documented andundocumented.
It wasn't until the immigrantswere Black and brown and not
white, basically that all of asudden we have this new
narrative around the right wayand create all of these systems
and rules and visas and caps andquotas, that, uh, we have the
(09:11):
narrative from today.
Maria (09:13):
Well, and you, you said it perfectly, we made them up
yeah the policies are made upbased on a handful of people's
preferences, beliefs, agendas,but they're made up right, so go
ahead.
I'm just I was super curious.
(09:33):
I know that this is this iscoming out and a lot of us uh, I
feel like it's very timely, butclearly the work went into it
before last month's uh, events,um, but I'm wondering what?
Because writing a book is nojoke.
This, this, is a labor of love.
Was there something inparticular that like lit the
(09:54):
fire for you to put pen to paperand put this out?
Vanessa (09:59):
I think the book is really a collection of a lot of
the things that I've been reallyfortunate to learn along the
way through my own journey ofhealing, through my own
education, and so I've been ableto almost like collect
information over time, and Ialways say to people sometimes I
will have an experience withone of my clients and I'll be
(10:20):
like, oh my God, I'm so glad Itook that class in community
college 10 years ago, cause nowI know what they're talking
about in this moment, likethings kind of unfold in a
particular way.
But one of the big motivatorsor I would say like catalyst is
maybe a better word I had acouple of TikTok videos that did
really well in maybe aroundlike 2022-ish, and one of them
(10:44):
was about a culture of stressthat like kind of twice as
perfect pressure and how, forLatinx people, we would assume
that coming to the US makestheir life better in a lot of
ways, and in some ways it does,but actually it can be really
harmful to our mental healthwhen we live in the US, and
there are some studies that showthe longer we're here in the US
(11:06):
, the worse our mental healthoutcomes get, and so I had made
some videos about that and I hada huge response and people were
relating to it so much and itopened up so many conversations.
And one thing people would askme is where can I learn more
about this?
And I would say, uh well, Imean you can read like this book
talks about this little bit ofit, and this article but it's
(11:29):
kind of an academic article, butit talks a little bit about it
and you know, there was no oneplace I could send people that
was written specifically forLatinos and that was written for
a general audience.
A lot of it had come from morelike textbooks and trainings in
school and academic journals.
And so I realized that therewas a huge need for something
(11:54):
that talked specifically to aLatinx audience about mental
health but that incorporated notjust like that kind of like
individual lens a lot ofself-help is but that really
brought in the cultural piecesand the societal pieces and the
historical pieces pieces and thehistorical pieces.
(12:18):
And so when the opportunityarose and I met an editor with
Jessica Kingsley publisher,who's my publisher, I just said
to myself you know, thisopportunity presented itself to
me and I should just take it, Ishould just run with it.
Liliana (12:28):
And it went fast and it's going to go on fast ever
since, but that's how it startedI love that and I am so
grateful for it, because we doneed, not only because of how
you broke down the chapters, butnot only just as Latinos
because we need to seerepresentation, but because of
what you just mentioned, whichis there's no class that we can
(12:50):
take in order to help us, notonly to make sense of what we're
working with, but what do wename it when in our training
proper trainings per se we don'thave this.
We only have stereotypes.
What you did in your book isyou humanize, and that's what we
need.
Can we be curious about theperson in front of me that comes
(13:13):
from Latin America or is just anewcomer?
And then, what is thedifference when I'm working with
one who is first generation,versus second generation, versus
third generation?
What you're just describingright, which is true, the third
generation is dealing withhigher levels of anxiety and
depression, and most people willsay but why?
(13:35):
Because you've been here, thelonger you're separated from
this generational trauma.
But it's the other stressorsthat come with.
You know some that we havementioned, but it is true in
regards to the longer that thisstays.
Now that it gets better, maybethe financial piece, maybe we
start building other stuff,maybe you're not living with the
cartels, but you know we haveother stuff dealing right now.
(13:57):
Yet is the mental health piecein regards to the third
generation and what they dealwith, that we don't get trained,
yeah.
Maria (14:08):
That continues to be one of our talking points, liliana,
is that when we talk aboutdiversity and we talk about
different cultures generally,what we're given is stereotypes
and not authentic experiences,and often not from the
population that we are talkingabout yeah, no, this is what I
love.
Liliana (14:27):
Uh, as I started following you a while back, that
sounds like I'm stalking you.
Maria (14:32):
She was, that's fine it's not stalking, it's fangirling.
Liliana (14:37):
Liliana fangirl but I've been following you for a
while.
So when I because I was like,how do I came across but it was
through the publisher that I gotto learn about you in the book
context that I was like, oh yeah, what you've been doing for us.
You've been doing this for awhile already, trying to make
sense and organize it in a waythat all of us were working with
(15:00):
this population, have a commonlanguage, but also, how do we
organize it for clients?
So you've been on it for awhile already.
Vanessa (15:11):
Yeah, and I mean, it's also even my own journey as a
therapist and working withLatinas and Latinos and Latinx
people, trying to understand howto present this to my clients
in a way that is empowering andhelps them in their own journey.
And I find that sometimes justhaving a name for something is
(15:32):
so powerful, because it's notjust this like mysterious
feeling I'm having and I don'tknow where it comes from, but
once I can say like, for example, the twice is perfect.
The mental health term for thatis acculturative stress.
Right, trying to balance twocultures at once creates
acculturative stress, and so nowI can actually name this as
(15:52):
something and there is power inthat right.
It's now something I can grasp,or I can kind of hold on to and
understand and be reflective ofthese opportunities to talk and
share our experiences, becausewe're not all experiencing them
in the same way, yes, but we arefeeling elements of them as a
(16:23):
collective.
Liliana (16:25):
Oh, love it.
Music to my ears, right.
Which is now you started namingthe different kinds of not only
traumas, but stress thatLatinos are dealing with, and
actually other cultures too,instead of when we go to the DSM
book and it's like can this fitthe PTSD, which is the umbrella
for everything that you're justnaming, and not having that
(16:47):
common language just with everyother therapist, because if I
say those terms, they'll be likewhat are you talking about?
Vanessa (17:01):
Is that in the DSM book?
Yet you have this ability inthis book again to name a lot of
these things.
Yeah, provide those definitions, and so I'm hopeful that you
know.
Just having that language in asense is empowering to some
people to be able to say this issomething that I can connect
with and relate to.
Maria (17:14):
I want to build community right.
I mean, that's one of thethings that Liliana shared, even
just in the beginning of thiswas like.
That spoke to my experience.
It was nice to hear it, but itwasn't just me, I'm not the only
one struggling with this oradjusting to this, and I can
only imagine I mean, we've seethis across our country.
But communities are so, soimportant now for people, for
(17:38):
individuals to find safety, tofind healing, to find connection
in a world that, while we'reconnected through the Internet,
feels very disjointed andisolated.
And isolated, yeah.
Liliana (17:51):
Yeah.
So I'm curious when I say isthere a chapter that you were
like, oh, this was either hardto write or one that you enjoyed
the most?
Vanessa (18:02):
Ooh, that's a great question.
I will say, a chapter that Ifound was hard to write, I think
, was the chapter on historicaltrauma.
It's just such a heavy topicand I wrote that chapter after I
had written the chapters oncolonization and the trauma of
colonization.
(18:22):
I had written the chapter onrace and white supremacy,
culture, and so to come to thechapter of really talking
directly about historical traumaand all that it entails, like
it said, there's so muchheaviness there and also it was
kind of putting all of thattogether of how does that live
on today in our culture and ourcommunities and our bodies, and
(18:44):
so I found myself really takingtime through that because it is
just a very big, you know, painfor all of us to contend with,
and so that's definitely where Inoticed myself really having to
take care and to kind of takethat on the slower side.
(19:06):
I had a lot of fun with a lot ofthe other chapters, right, the
twice is perfect chapter thatyou talked about with the
culture distress.
I love writing about thatbecause I find that that's
really one of those things thatpeople can really immediately
attach to, yeah, and not evenjust Latinos, right, but most
people can have and they canreflect on some time where they
(19:27):
could feel that kind of mismatch, even if it's just sometimes
like you might switch jobs andyou're going to a new job and
the culture at this new job isvery different from the one that
you've come from.
Or your family moves citiesright, and now you're in a very
different type of environmentthan you were before, and so
I've always loved that topicbecause I find it's really one
that really brings peopletogether right away.
(19:47):
I actually was just doing myaudio book and my director for
my audio book was an immigrantfrom New Zealand and when we
finished that chapter he waslike, wow, that's what I was
feeling, a culture of stress,and he had questions for me
about it and we talked about it,and so I love that even he was
able to connect.
So that was another fun one.
(20:08):
And then some of the laterchapters where I talk about like
when we need and kind of havingthis radical imagination for
liberation and what we want tocreate, I always really enjoy,
because that's part of like theart and the creativity of
seeking liberation is what couldbe a world we would build
outside of all of these systemsand what would healing really
(20:30):
look like, and that's a reallyamazing exercise to be able to
witness people take part in.
Maria (20:37):
Yeah, love it.
Beautiful, and I know today islaunch day for you, but what are
you working on?
What are you working on now?
What am I working on?
Vanessa (20:48):
now?
Yeah, but what are you workingon?
What are you working on now?
What am I working on now?
Well, you know, I really wantto just kind of enjoy this book
process and see what comes of it.
I've really felt like there hasbeen so much that's come into
this and it's been, I think, noteven just a personal sacrifice,
(21:11):
but like a family sacrifice,like with my husband's support
to me as I wrote this book.
So I'm happy to just kind ofwitness this book be out in the
world and not just an idea in myhead.
And I am also expecting a babyin April and so I'll be taking
some time, and so this is reallyjust a time for me to have.
You know, I was really hittingthe gas pedal for a long time
and now I think I'm gonna kindof just coast and see where life
takes me for a bit yeah,absolutely.
Maria (21:33):
I mean, you put one baby out into the world, you've got
another one coming.
Vanessa (21:36):
It's fair to be able to enjoy that process yeah, so
I'm excited for just this, thisnext chapter and what it will
bring, and I'm open to all of it.
Liliana (21:46):
Oh, love it, that's a nice affirmation.
I am open, right to all of it.
Oh, love it, that's a niceaffirmation.
I am open for all of it.
Oh God, is there something thatyou wish you would have added?
Now, as you're reflecting, asyou're doing, the audio that
you're like, I wish I would havetalked about this.
Vanessa (22:05):
I don't know that there's like any big topic that
I wish I would have added,because I think this is
something that I covered a lotof different stuff.
I will just say now so much hashappened since I turned in this
original manuscript, right?
So, even though it's now goingto be February 2025, this book
has really been done for almosta year and just gone back and
(22:26):
forth with the editing processfor almost a year and just gone
back and forth with the editingprocess.
And so just now, witheverything that's happening in
the United States, with thepolitical climate and just you
know, the fear and uncertaintythat we're all living with, I do
sometimes think like, well, Iwish I could have spoken to some
of this now more directly, butI don't know that any of us
(22:47):
really could have anticipatedthat this is where we would find
ourselves here at the beginningof 2025.
Maria (22:52):
Um, no, absolutely.
Vanessa (22:55):
Absolutely.
Maria (22:56):
And and I think this is one of those you know, you, you
put it out and then immediatelythe world continues and things
continue to happen.
I think it's the topic thatwill continuously be on the move
and adjusting and experienceswill continue to happen and
policies will be created andadapted.
And you know, and I think thatthis is going to become just a
(23:19):
living document out there forpeople, it's not an end all
point.
I think the discussion aboutculture and generational trauma,
colonization there isn't just aone-liner and then you know it
right, and it's never going tochange.
Vanessa (23:34):
I think this is really important to keep in mind too,
that this is going to be kind ofa living document that
continues to adapt and unravelas we experience all the changes
in the world that we have rightnow we experience all the
changes in the world that wehave right now, yeah, and I am
(23:55):
hopeful right that having alittle bit of a foundation of
historical trauma, generationaltrauma, individual trauma, you
know, culture distress, thatsome of those things people will
be able to say, well, I cankind of critically apply that to
what I'm seeing now, or maybehave a little bit of a different
lens that they can put towardssome of what's happening.
Because we really are beingexposed to such high levels of
(24:16):
stress right now and I thinkthat's on purpose right.
It's by design that they'regoing to throw all of this
negativity out and all of thesewild policies out and hope to
just put us into a space ofshutting down.
And perhaps, if we understandwhat's happening, we can make
more intentional decisions sothat we can avoid feeling
(24:39):
disconnected or shut down andhave routes we can take to find
agency and resource ourselves asneeded and have a bit of space
for ourselves to heal.
Still.
Liliana (24:51):
Beautiful, beautiful, stated.
So again, everyone, this is abook that is released today.
The Latin, the Latin, the Latinoh God, I cannot even pronounce
it.
The Latin X the Latin Guide toLiberation.
This is when I know that, one Ihad enough coffee.
Two, my brain wants to switchto Spanish.
(25:11):
Does that happen to you,vanessa?
When my brain is like no, sayit in Spanish, it just does this
on me.
So I'm like oh god you knowwhat?
Vanessa (25:23):
no, so my first language was Spanish and then,
um, I've been, I still speaksome Spanish and I am more
fluent in English now, over theyears, which is something we
talk about in the book too,about, like, how language
changes over generations.
But you know, even like theidea of the word Latinx, we have
to talk about in the book thehistory even of that, of why I
(25:43):
would use it, because that hasits own narrative and there's a
lot there too.
Liliana (25:50):
Oh, I think we can write a whole not even book,
right About labels, when itcomes to the labels that were
given here in the US, becausewhen you go to Latin America,
either you're Mexican or you'reHonduran.
Like you have this, you don'thave all these things, the
exception of the US.
So even as my brain was tryingto reconcile that cause, I was
(26:11):
like, oh my God, what is it?
But that's the whole newpodcast that we can totally do
and that's the whole new bookjust on labels that we're given
when we are othering.
But I'm so excited about yourbook, I'm so excited about
everyone reading this book.
I cannot say enough about it.
I wish you so many blessingswith this book and, again, thank
(26:36):
you for writing it, because weneed it more than ever.
Vanessa (26:40):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you both forhaving me and giving me space to
talk about it and to share thatwith your audience.
I hope people find it to behelpful or maybe even empowering
, and I have loved to talk toyou both today.
Maria (26:53):
Thank you so much.
We'll include all of yourcontact information and direct
links so that they can purchasetheir own copy and put together
their own book club and workthrough this very important text
you put out.
Thank, you.
Till next time, guys.
Vanessa (27:11):
Bye.
Maria (27:12):
Bye.
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