June 26, 2025 • 40 mins
Discover the transformative power of earned security in attachment theory with the insightful Clair Mellenthin, the brilliant mind behind Attachment-Centered Play Therapy. Clair unveils her pioneering research on the journey of registered play therapists, highlighting how their attachment histories deeply influence their professional and personal lives. This conversation offers a beacon of hope, emphasizing that early relationship patterns are not set in stone and can evolve through nurturing surrogate attachments like mentors and supervisors, showcasing the resilience of the human spirit.
We explore the significant impact of mentorship and its profound role in shaping successful careers in social work. Drawing from personal stories and experiences, the episode highlights gratitude to mentors who have acted as guiding lights, our "birthday candles" illuminating the path towards growth even in the darkest times. It’s a heartfelt reminder of the importance of positive influences and the encouragement to become the supportive figures we might have longed for ourselves, emphasizing that anyone can foster earned security through supportive relationships.
In the evolving landscape of supervision post-COVID-19, the necessity of authentic and safe relationships is more pressing than ever. This episode examines supervisors' challenges in connecting with newer generations accustomed to digital communication. By embracing a blend of emotional intelligence and innovative supervision training, inspired by thinkers like Brené Brown, we discuss creating an enriching, trust-based environment for growth. This conversation centers around the need for ongoing adaptation and learning to nurture secure, supportive supervisory relationships that allow supervisors and supervisees to thrive while acknowledging that trust and genuine connections are the cornerstones of such interactions.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back listeners for another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, maria LaCareDiego, and I'm joined today by
my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's me.
I'm not only the co-host.
I'm going to say that I'm yourattachment person, maria, for
today's topic.
I love that.
My name is Liliana Valon andI'm here with the amazing Claire
.
Claire, how would you like tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Claire Melantine.
I am the creator ofAttachment-Centered Play Therapy
and my lens like how I see theworld.
I've been a therapist now wejust were kind of figuring this
out the other day in a training.
I've been a social workerlonger in my adult life than
I've been not one.
(00:49):
Oh wow, isn't that wild.
So I've been in the field ofsocial work and play therapy now
for 24 years longer for thefield of social work but it is
kind of a crazy milestone tothink like I've been a social
worker longer than I haven'tbeen.
Yeah, that's amazing, not wild.
I mean it dates me.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I was like hello, then we need to do another
episode.
And what are you doing to takecare of your skin when you have
been in the field for 20 yearsand this is what you look for?
Like that's another episode.
We will come back.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Genetics now for like that's another.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We will come back genetics now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, that is huge.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Well, first of all, congratulations, and thank you,
and thank you for what you'vedone for the field of both
social work and play therapy so,um, thank you, claire.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I'm wondering, claire, for everyone, who's out
there?
Um, not who's out there,everyone is out there.
Anyone listening to thispodcast?
What is it we're going to talkabout today?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
So one of the things that I have just I'm wrapping up
currently COVID did crazythings to all of us and I
thought it was a great idea tojust like slip in a doctoral
program, so slide that in.
It won't be too disruptive toeverything else that I do.
You know such good intent tohad a good dose of humble pie.
(02:16):
But one of the things that I'vebeen researching so I actually
am just finishing is the firststudy ever done on the lived
experiences of registered playtherapists and how their
attachment history has kind ofshaped who they've become and
how they engage with clients andtheir families.
(02:37):
Um, and and so I'm reallyexcited, you know, to want to be
done with school, holy cow, butalso get some of this new
information that's coming outthere to the world, because it's
something that I'm sopassionate about and I love so
much.
But one of the really beautifulfindings that has been coming
(03:02):
from my study and from I did aqualitative research study, so
it's interviewing different playtherapists from all across the
country and you know these arecoming from all walks of life,
all you know, as different as wecould be right With our, where
our origin stories are and oneof the most beautiful things
coming from my research has beenthe importance and the power of
(03:26):
earned security in adulthoodand especially that role that a
mentor and a supervisor takes increating that for clinicians,
and I just think that that'ssomething that we don't really
talk about very much and I thinkthat could be a really fun way
to kind of kick off the podcasttoday.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I love that.
So for those that may not know,what do you mean by earned
security?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So what earned security is is you can come.
So basically you can come froma pretty disadvantaged early
upbringing in terms ofrelationship quality, so
children who have been exposedto abuse, neglect, unloving
parents and experiences withparental figures.
And what we used to think aboutin attachment theory is like
(04:14):
you were kind of destined tohave this disorganized,
disorientating experience inrelationships like throughout
your whole life because of theseearly beginnings.
And what contemporaryattachment science you know has
found over the last few decadesis you're not one.
We're so much more resilientthan that as humans and we're
(04:35):
not destined to repeat thepatterns of the past.
It's hard to change, but it'snot your destiny.
And so what Aaron Securityrefers to is finding the
surrogate attachment figures,other safe adults and even
sometimes older children orolder mentors, and sometimes
that comes in the form of afriendship, a lover, a mentor,
(04:57):
you know some surrogateattachment figure that really
can just create an experience ofsecurity with you and help fill
in all those holes fromchildhood.
And what happens is throughthese earned secure
relationships, then that childwho maybe didn't experience
secure attachment early in theirlife learns how to through
(05:18):
these other outsiderelationships.
And then there's like such coolresearch out there how that
shifts their parenting, itshifts the way that they're
interacting with the world, itshifts how they see themselves
and their experience ofthemselves and others.
And so I think that this, thisidea of insecurity, for me has
always been like holding up,like this big lantern of hope,
(05:42):
you know, especially with myclients who maybe didn't have
big beacons of hope growing up.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I love that you're doing this, especially because,
for all as we're talking aboutfrom the perspective of mentors
and supervisors and superviseesrelationship, we have this idea.
When we went to our master'sprogram and all of you who are
there, you know who you are.
You're not reading aboutattachment unless you have to,
so I'm calling you out, but allof us, when we went into our
(06:09):
master's program, we thoughtthat what both we suggested was
that you have that attachmentstyle and then you were doomed.
So most of us go into grief,thinking like my God.
We go into the fantasy, grief,anger, like all these things,
because we feel like we're doneand when, in reality, in the
(06:31):
last couple of years more than acouple of years the new
research that is emerging asyou're discussing, and the new
books that are coming out,they're saying we actually have
multiple attachment styles withdifferent people, which is such
a beautiful reframe of givinghope.
I love the lantern metaphorthat you use, which is exactly
it.
And then taking it to thispoint of the research that
(06:54):
you're doing in regards tosupervisees, mentors and
supervisors, how beautiful it isbecause we are in systems where
they're asking us to beprofessional all the time, to
attend to but not have awarenessof what is happening for you in
that session and in thatrelationship, how beautiful and
important job you're doing rightnow focusing on that.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Thanks.
I think that that's beensomething you know, being a
supervisor for the last twodecades.
That's remind us you know alittle bit, a little plus with
that.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Nobody do the math.
Nobody do the math.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You know, one of the things, especially in social
work, is there's not a lot oftraining on how to become a
supervisor.
You don't actually have to taketraining on how to be a
supervisor.
You have to be licensed for twoyears and it's like, okay,
great, go supervise In othermental health disciplines.
You know, my MFT friends knowthat.
Oh, you actually have to do alot of training on how to become
(08:03):
a supervisor.
Yes, you know, lpc, I think, isreally similar, where it's like
there's not a lot of training.
It's like do it if you want,but you don't really have to,
and so you know we have this.
So many people out there whohave such good intent and how to
supervise, but if you haven'tdone like your own work, or
(08:24):
you're not familiar withfamiliar with what supervision
could even entail, you know, Ithink a lot of times, like
everyone's doing the best thatthey know how to, and there's so
much more that goes insupervision besides just talking
about cases and doing paperwork, and you know, so much of this,
though, is dependent upon whatthe supervisor's training is
(08:45):
Right.
So if you were never trained inunderstanding
countertransference andtransference, for example, like
that, those aren't bad things,but they're actually amazing
tools to use in the same way assomebody else.
And I think, like the art ofpsychodynamic theory is
(09:06):
definitely going out of vogue,but those foundational elements
of of mental health, I'm likeall the theories come from this,
you know, and and I thinksometimes that part gets missed
you know how important theseexperiences, experiences like
the between and within that'shappening right, like it's not
(09:28):
just how what's coming up foryou or what you think about
what's coming up for somebodyelse, but figuring out, okay,
now, what's the in-between spaceand what is this really about.
And and I think whensupervisors take the time to get
to know the person, the soul ofthe therapist they're
supervising, and allow them toget to know you, it changes
(09:48):
everything.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think I know my ownexperience of being promoted to
supervisor was I was lasttherapist standing.
I didn't have additionaltraining, I didn't even at the
time have the want for saidresponsibilities.
I didn't even fully understandthe risks and liabilities I was
taking on in that new position.
(10:12):
And as I've got a couple ofyears not quite as many as you
as a supervisor, but under mybelt, what I see in my
mentorships and supervision isnew supervisors often will, like
we see, reflected with parents,right, like I'm either going to
replicate what was what Iexperienced or I'm going to
(10:32):
swing to the opposite end andtry to do everything different.
If I felt like that was anegative experience and that's
survival, right, like we knowthat that's, that's survival.
But I would love to see moreintentional work around building
up supervisors and trainingaround how to be a supervisor
(10:52):
that includes all of this andnot just how to watch
productivity and reviewdocumentation.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Right.
So I love that the three of usare in consensus of we need more
.
So, for all of you who arelistening out there, what Claire
and Maria are talking about iswhen you go to school and you're
like I want to become asupervisor, every state has
completely differentrequirements.
Some states you don't have todo anything.
In some states you do.
Most of us tend to besupervisors either of licensure
(11:28):
or credentialing, and mosttherapists still do not
understand the differencebetween the two.
And what you are suggesting, orwhat you're talking about here,
claire, is more than thelogistics of going through
checklists to meet requirementsfor licensure and credentialing.
What you're suggesting is howdo we build and empower
supervisees?
How do we mentor from arelational point of view?
(11:52):
Or, as Brené Brown, one of herlatest podcasts, was talking
about, we went from leadershipof task-oriented to
brain-oriented, toheart-oriented now.
So it's that relational piecethat you're discussing, and we
do have to show up in order togive a different template which
(12:14):
does what you're suggesting froman attachment perspective, in
order for them to see themselvesand trust themselves in this
development journey that theyare embarking on.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love that being heart centered.
That resonates so much with me.
You know, like how I, how Iapproach life, but I think
especially these relationships.
And you know, maria, I thinkthat you had a really good point
too.
You know, so much of ourtraining is what we experience,
(12:47):
right.
And so I can think back to myearly years.
I had a phenomenal, phenomenalexperience with a supervisor in
grad school, my other internship.
I was really grateful I hadother colleagues in there that
could help fill in the gaps,because it wasn't quite that
same level of relationship there.
(13:07):
And, and I'm so grateful thatother people could help fill in
the spaces that you know wherethere was gaps.
And those two experiencesdefinitely taught me the kind of
person I wanted to show up andbe, which was modeling.
After my first supervisor, youknow, I look back at that first
(13:31):
experience in social work and Ijust have so much gratitude
because I was surroundedsurrounded by mentors who
absolutely loved me.
I knew that I was loved.
They supported me, theystretched me, they challenged me
and they also took me undertheir wing.
(13:52):
And I say collectively, becausethat was my experience with
every licensed person that I wasworking with.
I had an amazing supervisor,but I also had this collection
of mentors that you know, reallypaved the pathway for what I'm
even doing, you know, taught meabout play therapy, gave me
(14:13):
language for this, had meexperience this, you know, and,
and set the stage for this wholeprofessional development of who
I, who I've become and continueto be coming.
You know, and, and I think back, if, like, my only experience
had been the opposite of that,what a different professional
(14:34):
development I may have had.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, for me it's like well,yes, of course, claire, your
focus on attachment andrelationships, because you had
that from the beginning in yourcareer path, at least.
Right, and and not everyone isas lucky, I think I'm more and
more I run into like people haveboth experiences, right, we
(14:58):
have.
We have some in the good columnand we have some in the well, I
learned a lot column, and Ithink I think both of those
things are true, and because wedo, we learn.
We learn from the good and fromthe bad, and I, you know, I'm I
know that this is part of yourresearch, but I'm wondering,
like are there a couple ofthings that you can share with
(15:19):
our listeners in terms of, likelittle nuggets that have come up
for you that you feel like, oh,this, people need to know about
this, mm-hmm yes, I'm likewhere do you even start?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So I think some of the things that have stood out
to me as a supervisor superviseeas well, as you know listening
to the stories from my research,which that was like a whole
nother level of just beautifulhumility, like such an honor for
people to share their storieswith me and to trust me with.
We weren't talking about easythings.
(15:57):
You know, talking about yourattachment history with a
stranger is something that is so, takes so much courage and is
so brave and and so reallythinking and wanting to honor
the participants in the study aswell, and so really thinking
and wanting to honor theparticipants in the study as
well, man, it's amazing, youknow, like I think about that
and like my heart just is sofull for them and for that
(16:21):
experience.
One of the stories you knowcoming from the research was
there's been a few differentones, you know where the earned
security started actually bybeing a teenager and being
forced to go to therapy andfinding their first earned
security experience through thattherapeutic relationship with
(16:44):
their therapist and, for thefirst time, having an adult
truly see them for who they are,love them as they are,
experience this worth anddignity of a person where
they've never had an adult treatthem in that way before.
Yeah, and it was through thatexperience of having this
(17:08):
beautiful therapeuticrelationship that that planted
the seed of this is what I wantto do, and there were a few
similar stories.
Most of the therapists in myresearch study did not come from
idealistic upbringing.
You know that thing that wealways say like oh, we're all
(17:33):
wounded healers.
You know, like there's, there'ssome truth in this Out of all my
participants, I had two peoplethat you know kind of
self-identified, having a secureattachment growing up with
their caregivers and theirparents.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Wow, but I think that that's a good representation,
right Like that's an honestrepresentation, yep.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And for all the other ones, right, like this idea of
earned security, seeds began tobe planted and other safe
grownups, right.
That kind of paved the way oflike I want to become somebody
that I never had.
I want to be a safe grownupbecause I didn't have one.
I had this beautiful experiencewith a therapist or with a
(18:17):
mentor, or with a teacher or afriend or a lover, whatever this
was.
I want to be that because Ididn't have that, you know.
And so as we talk about theways that we're shaped and how
we become like, you know thesepathways, you know, one of the
things that I oftentimes teach,you know, when we're talking
(18:38):
about attachment and attachmenttheory is I usually, you know,
kind of refer to these keypeople as birthday candles.
And so you know, like, the wayI conceptualize this is like if
you have one little tiny cakecandle, one little birthday
candle, and you're all alone inthe dark, it's not enough to see
what's out in front of you,like in the distance, but it's
(18:59):
enough to see what's right hereand through our life we go
around collecting birthdaycandles, and if you have a
handful of birthday candles,that becomes a torch, and so
when you're alone in a darkspace.
That is enough to see what'sahead of you and ways to help
(19:22):
pave you, you know, pave a safepathway forward.
And listening to the storiesabout how important these
different mentors and thesesupervisors and these safe
grownups, you know likeoftentimes, especially when
you're working with a little oneor you're in contact with
another human, they might be ina big person body but they're
still in that really woundedlittle person world.
You may have no idea thatyou're making a difference.
(19:44):
Yeah, like men, because they'renot going to show you.
You know, and it's, it's notuntil you've been in
relationship for years, monthsand years and maybe even as well
after that time has ended.
And you know this is one ofthose things like being in the
(20:06):
field as long as I have, youknow, like there's been times
where I've gotten a graduationannouncement or a letter or a
marriage announcement or youknow, you know you've been in
the field for a really, really,really long time.
If they bring their child tocome see you and all these years
they've been carrying thisbirthday candle of this was a
(20:27):
safe place for me.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
That is powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's powerful.
I think, uh, even in our roleas a play therapist or a
therapist, that it doesn'tmatter the credential that you
have, we tend to minimize whatwe do because we're focusing on
we're focusing on task um, thetherapy session, the treatment
plan, the so on and so forththat we tend to forget how we
are secure base for our clientsand secure base for our
(21:00):
supervisees or our mentorees,and we forget that relational
piece.
And you're highlighting ittoday.
You are lighting on a candletoday to say, hey, did you
remember this piece?
You are lighting on a candletoday to say, hey, did you
remember this piece?
And in that intent of you know,I always ask in my supervision
trainings what is the failedsense that you want to create in
(21:21):
supervision?
What was the failed sense foryou?
And any time that we go intothe group activity, you know
what they share is this is whatI like, this is what I don't
like, this is what I want toduplicate, what I don't like,
this is what I want to replicate.
And I was like perfect, butthat intention, what is it that
we have to do to?
To create a secure base of?
(21:41):
Go explore, I'll be here rightwhich is like go free, and in
that, for us as supervisors andmentors, we are working on
earning that security because weare creating a different
template for them that hopefullythey get to duplicate, not only
(22:03):
with their clients but laterwith their supervisors too.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Absolutely, and I love that idea that we're
earning that.
Yeah, just as much as they areRight, because I mean we can be
like I'm safe here, come engagewith me, I'm so nice, right.
But without relationship, and atrue relationship, an authentic
relationship safety cannot beestablished.
(22:29):
You know one of the things Ilove that Steve Pargeas has
taught over the years, you know,but he says our, our brains.
First question, wherever wewalk into, is am I safe, am I
safe?
Am I safe?
Am I safe, am I safe?
Yeah, right.
So we all have like thesebeacons out there of like
where's my safe places, Where'smy safe people?
And and as soon as you find,you know that that safety in
(22:54):
there, it's like your wholebody's like okay, I can relax, I
can be fine, we're okay.
You know, but those earlystages of supervision may not
feel that way for either one ofyou.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
yeah, and I think I think it's important that we can
recognize that.
I think it's important thatwe're saying it out loud,
because I think there's thismisconception of like, of course
I'm safe, I'm a supervisor,right, and we can all sit here
and laugh going.
I had supervisors who were notsafe people.
And just because you've been inthe field longer or you have
(23:28):
this title or this credentialdoes not automatically the
assumption is not that you are asafe person.
That is still something thatneeds to be earned.
That is something that you know.
There may be ruptures andrepairs that still need to
happen.
Right, like it is, it is verymuch a relationship that we are
creating and I think being ableto, as a supervisor and as a
mentor of other supervisors,being like it's okay that
(23:51):
they're not fully trusting youthat's, that's actually a really
healthy response to this newrelationship.
Right, because instantattachment isn't always the
safest either.
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Right, and, as we always teach our people, rapport
is different from relationship.
Yes, right, and I thinksometimes it's easy to miss that
because, like, oh, we justjacked together.
This is great, you know, andbecause it feels good on the
surface, it's easy to stay therefor both the supervisor and the
(24:24):
supervisee.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Surface is the safest point of view, right?
I always picture like thatrelationship being like my head
is above water and everythingelse is hidden, because, one, I
don't have the template and then, two, I am not sure that I can
trust you that way yet, right?
So that's why I said earnsecurity from a supervisor
standpoint of you, because it ismy job to work on that
(24:51):
relationship so that I createsafety, so that you feel safe
enough to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, and I love that Like
, yeah, I was picturing like aboat on water right and like
surface level is, it can besunshine and rainbows.
But like we're going to have todo hard work, we're going to
have to talk about tough stuff.
I'm going to have to, like, toethe line for some things.
I might have to be moredisciplinary, depending on your
supervision.
You know roles and requirements, and that only is going to be
(25:23):
effective and helpful if there'sa relationship here that feels
safe for both of us.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, right, right.
And I think sometimes forsupervisors that's hard Like I.
You know I've been consultingwith several people over the
last couple of years, you know,with kind of like this this
makes me sound so old the newergeneration of 30s, but you know
(25:49):
who grew up with social mediaand with the internet and with
all these things that I mean itdoes make me sound so old
talking about this, but you knowthey're a different breed, at
your fingertips, as well asbeing trained on TikTok.
You know, dr, tiktok and ofeverything is a boundary,
(26:10):
everything is toxic, everythingis like these big, huge black
and white statements and helpinghelping them understand like,
oh, but there's like so muchthat goes into this, and
figuring out again this idea ofsafety, because if you have
grown up learning that, like, inorder to resolve conflict, you
chop somebody off, like youblock them and you don't have to
(26:32):
deal with it and you never haveto be uncomfortable, like I
mean, my kids all have grown upthat way, you know and where
it's like, oh guys, that's nothow relationships work.
You have to be able to do thesethings and have uncomfortable
experiences, and that means forus, as a supervisor, we have to
be willing to have uncomfortableexperiences while maintaining
(26:53):
safety and stability, which Ithink it's easy to want to cut
that off Right and be like, oh,you make me so uncomfortable or
this is such a big headache or Idon't know how to reach you and
connect to you.
You know, like I think thatthat's a really valid experience
that a lot of supervisors arehaving right now too.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely there is there, there
are generations right withinour, within our field.
Um, you know, I know insupervision consultation that I
do, now we, we talk a lot aboutthose that that went through
school during covid and, likeit's, they had just a different
education and experience thanthan we did.
(27:33):
Right, like I've mentionedbefore another on other episodes
, like I'm, I'm old enough tosay, like, when I went to grad
school it was still very much.
You check yourself at the door,you were a blank slate, you do
not have a personality, you donot have a life outside of this
office, right, and we've come sofar and we'll continue to go
right with technologyadvancements and information
advancements which, again, Ithink, claire, this is such
(27:56):
important work and I don't knowwhat came to you and called to
you to do this work and thisresearch, but I think it's so
important because it's not beingtalked about Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And, yeah, you know, honestly, coming to this was
because of my experiences asbeing a supervisor and like
themes came up that I expected,just because attachment theory
is like my orientation of how Isee the world.
But I was, you know, it wasinteresting and I was grateful.
(28:29):
I'm grateful for my supervisor,right, my dissertation chair,
you know, because originally I'mlike, oh, here's all these
themes that are coming up, andhe's like you're looking at this
from the lens of a supervisor.
Go back to the research andlook to the story for the person
, like your job is to be talkingabout their experiences, not
what your experience of theirexperiences, which how often do
(28:52):
we get caught up in that becomesour truth, right, like, well,
my experience of your experienceas what is happening.
So this is where, like mismatchcan happen and these attachment
ruptures and supervision canhappen so easily too, you know,
and and so for him to be kind oflike, point me in some very
(29:14):
grateful, but you know it's,it's a piece of humble pie to be
like, oh, my little friend,you're looking at this in a
totally different lens than whatyou're supposed to be doing
right now.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You know, and two weeks you just did we're going
to have to redo them.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, pretty much that's what it was, but I was so
grateful for that because I wasreading everything through the
lens of a supervisor and througha therapist because like that's
, that's my job, like that'swhat I do, you know.
And so going back to being liketrying kind of resettling that
researcher hat it, like it wasamazing the shift that could
(29:50):
happen, and like I stoppedgetting in my own way, you know,
and it made me think about, youknow, my role as a supervisor
how often this probably happensand I'm not aware of it.
Sure, sure, you know.
And how often maybe theselittle ruptures are occurring
and we're not aware of it orit's easy to brush it off of
like oh, I was just having a badday and not coming back to do
(30:11):
the repair of, hey, I'm so sorryI was late, you know, I'm I'm
so sorry we had this, you know,technology glitch, I, you know,
like going back and doing theselittle repairs, like we have to
be modeling this with oursupervisors too, because that's
also how we create security andattachment and it's easy to kind
(30:32):
of blow off the little thingsbecause you're focused on the
big things or what you think isthe most important thing instead
of what's actually there underthe surface.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Because even in those statements, I was like oh my
God, from a cultural perspective, you're talking about
gaslighting microaggressions.
I'm like, this doesn't matter,what are you talking about?
Um.
But then, like, since youstarted this episode, I'm like,
oh claire, what are you gonna doabout leadership?
Then, what is it that you'reworking on?
Because you're absolutely right, we don't have it, um, not in
(31:09):
any supervision training,because even as, uh, I think
Maria and I were both AMFTapproved supervisors.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not an AMFT, but it's approved.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, I was going to say like, yeah, right, so that's
at least 18 months that you'rereading you're writing.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It felt like a mini dissertation.
It was.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
That's what it was considered.
Mine wasn't anything near tothat.
In Utah we have a little lowerstandards of what you have to be
, but yes, I know it's like that.
But that supervision experienceis way different than doing
like a six hour CEU course oflike you can be a supervisor now
.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Like that's cute when I hear that I was like, well,
that's so cute, supervisor.
Now, like that's cute when Ihear that I was like, well,
that's so cute.
Um, for all of you who are notseeing me, because you guys are
listening to us, um, I tend touse my hands and my face a lot
because I was like, oh, that isso cute.
Okay, uh, call me when you havethe reality check.
(32:10):
Um, but even when we take thetraining, then later we have to
go do refreshers.
We're not off the hook, um, andand usually is a weekend where
we have to go keep our livesagain and remember the trauma of
reviewing all of that stuff.
So, welcome, claire, to thatnightmare.
Um, we cannot wait for you totell us about your refresher.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
But enjoyable.
I am sorry there's like someawesome trainers in Utah that
just make it actually kind offun.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Okay, we're not gonna hate you at this point.
But okay, next time we'll go toUtah.
As you're talking, I'm like,wow, what a great opportunity
that you're going to have to goand take our supervision
training and infuse theattachment lens Right and
(33:04):
actually talk, as Brené Brown istalking about leadership, not
from a task management, not froma micromanagement, which is
what associations are doing, butto combining right brain and
heart.
Yeah, I cannot wait to see whatyou're going to create here.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
It's kind of fun to like yeah, I'm like there's been
some things percolating, butfirst I need to just graduate
before I start anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
But one bite at a time.
One bite at a time.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Exactly, but no, it is, and like the thought of, you
know, being able to just shedsome light on this, because we
don't talk about this stuff, youknow, and we don't talk about
the importance of this in in therelationship and why
relationship matters, and so Ithink that you know this is,
(33:57):
it's a, it's a next chapter.
You know it's going to be funto see kind of like where, the,
where we start growing this, howI start growing this.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
I think it's so powerful that what was true in
early childhood doesn't mean itwill always be true for you
because that had been themessage for so long.
Right, oh, that was yourchildhood.
Well, this is as good as itgets Buckle up right, and so
being able to have to be able toshift that message, both in the
mental health world and inattachment in general, but also,
(34:28):
you know, in pivoting thattowards supervisees and mentors
and being able to be like Iunderstand that that has been
your story to date.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
There's still hope that change can happen and it
can be better, it can bedifferent.
Yeah, kudos, kudos Again,claire, like one.
Thank you for being here too.
I am so grateful that you'retalking about this, because
every association is going tohave to send you requests after
you graduate, like trainings,because we do need them.
So I'm wondering, as we'reclosing um for today's episode,
(35:03):
what would be one thing that,what wisdom nugget that you want
to share with supervisors whoare listening today?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think, show up, like with your heart, and and
allow for a genuine relationshipto be developed, like I think a
lot of people are afraid ofdoing that, um, I think a lot of
humans are afraid of doing thator feel that like, oh, because
(35:32):
I'm you know, I'm your boss uphere, I'm your supervisor.
It's not appropriate to have afriendship or, you know,
whatever the rules andboundaries may be, and
relationship, though, can bespecific to that supervisee
supervisor relationship, youknow.
And so I think the first partthat that happens is we're not
(35:53):
blank slates, like you have tocome up in all of your authentic
messiness and wonderful bitsand pieces and the rough edges
and all of the things that makeus all human, but show up, like,
let them see you in yourhumanness so that you can see
them, and I think you will walkaway from this feeling so much
(36:17):
more fulfilled when you can havethat relationship yourself as a
supervisor.
Like.
There is an interesting threadlike what should I give?
What's a gift?
I should give my supervisorLike on Facebook a few days ago,
you know, and there's peoplethat are like, hawking their
wares and like, oh, buy this,buy this, buy this, and I'm like
you, like you're the gift, likejust who you are, as you are,
(36:42):
like and your growth anddevelopment, like that's the
gift.
And I think that when we canremember that, like that's what
keeps us all in the field isthese moments of connection.
You know, and we're kind oflaughing at a training I was
speaking at over the weekend andsomebody asked, like how many
(37:02):
people do you think you'vesupervised in Utah?
I'm like, oh my gosh, in like20 something years, I have no
idea, like no idea.
Um, it'd be, you know, kind offun to like think back and like
try to figure this out.
But you know, it's like we,each of us, have an opportunity
to help this next up-and-cominggeneration to do better and be
(37:23):
better and and help the world.
I mean, that's why we're all inthis, right, yeah again, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Thank you for your wisdom, um, thank you for
showing up and thank you foreven giving us a different model
, which is exactly what you'redoing when it comes to
mentorship and supervision.
Uh, maria, anything else do youwant to add before we go?
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I mean, just what a gift, claire, you are, the gift
um.
I love that you were able toshare um.
But yeah, I think you know themetaphors of the lantern I
always refer to as like we'replanting seeds that we never may
see fully bloom and we have totrust that they're they're doing
it.
But but we have to.
We have to do our stuff toplant the seed too.
(38:08):
Um, we have to.
We have to do our stuff so thatwe can show up authentically,
um, but yeah, what a, what agift you are and continue to be
to our field.
So thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
That's so sweet For our listeners who are out there.
We will include Claire'sinformation in our podcast so
you can reach out if you arelucky enough and privileged
enough to get a spot forconsultations with her.
But if not, please go to hertrainings so we will include her
website so you can see whenshe's doing training, so that
you can go and borrow some ofthat greatness from her.
(38:43):
Until next time, please takecare.
Bye.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Bye, thank you.
Welcome back listeners for another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, maria LaCareDiego, and I'm joined today by
my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's me.
I'm not only the co-host.
I'm going to say that I'm yourattachment person, maria, for
today's topic.
I love that.
My name is Liliana Valon andI'm here with the amazing Claire
.
Claire, how would you like tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Claire Melantine.
I am the creator ofAttachment-Centered Play Therapy
and my lens like how I see theworld.
I've been a therapist now wejust were kind of figuring this
out the other day in a training.
I've been a social workerlonger in my adult life than
I've been not one.
(00:49):
Oh wow, isn't that wild.
So I've been in the field ofsocial work and play therapy now
for 24 years longer for thefield of social work but it is
kind of a crazy milestone tothink like I've been a social
worker longer than I haven'tbeen.
Yeah, that's amazing, not wild.
I mean it dates me.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I was like hello, then we need to do another
episode.
And what are you doing to takecare of your skin when you have
been in the field for 20 yearsand this is what you look for?
Like that's another episode.
We will come back.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Genetics now for like that's another.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We will come back genetics now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, that is huge.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Well, first of all, congratulations, and thank you,
and thank you for what you'vedone for the field of both
social work and play therapy so,um, thank you, claire.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I'm wondering, claire, for everyone, who's out
there?
Um, not who's out there,everyone is out there.
Anyone listening to thispodcast?
What is it we're going to talkabout today?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
So one of the things that I have just I'm wrapping up
currently COVID did crazythings to all of us and I
thought it was a great idea tojust like slip in a doctoral
program, so slide that in.
It won't be too disruptive toeverything else that I do.
You know such good intent tohad a good dose of humble pie.
(02:16):
But one of the things that I'vebeen researching so I actually
am just finishing is the firststudy ever done on the lived
experiences of registered playtherapists and how their
attachment history has kind ofshaped who they've become and
how they engage with clients andtheir families.
(02:37):
Um, and and so I'm reallyexcited, you know, to want to be
done with school, holy cow, butalso get some of this new
information that's coming outthere to the world, because it's
something that I'm sopassionate about and I love so
much.
But one of the really beautifulfindings that has been coming
(03:02):
from my study and from I did aqualitative research study, so
it's interviewing different playtherapists from all across the
country and you know these arecoming from all walks of life,
all you know, as different as wecould be right With our, where
our origin stories are and oneof the most beautiful things
coming from my research has beenthe importance and the power of
(03:26):
earned security in adulthoodand especially that role that a
mentor and a supervisor takes increating that for clinicians,
and I just think that that'ssomething that we don't really
talk about very much and I thinkthat could be a really fun way
to kind of kick off the podcasttoday.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I love that.
So for those that may not know,what do you mean by earned
security?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So what earned security is is you can come.
So basically you can come froma pretty disadvantaged early
upbringing in terms ofrelationship quality, so
children who have been exposedto abuse, neglect, unloving
parents and experiences withparental figures.
And what we used to think aboutin attachment theory is like
(04:14):
you were kind of destined tohave this disorganized,
disorientating experience inrelationships like throughout
your whole life because of theseearly beginnings.
And what contemporaryattachment science you know has
found over the last few decadesis you're not one.
We're so much more resilientthan that as humans and we're
(04:35):
not destined to repeat thepatterns of the past.
It's hard to change, but it'snot your destiny.
And so what Aaron Securityrefers to is finding the
surrogate attachment figures,other safe adults and even
sometimes older children orolder mentors, and sometimes
that comes in the form of afriendship, a lover, a mentor,
(04:57):
you know some surrogateattachment figure that really
can just create an experience ofsecurity with you and help fill
in all those holes fromchildhood.
And what happens is throughthese earned secure
relationships, then that childwho maybe didn't experience
secure attachment early in theirlife learns how to through
(05:18):
these other outsiderelationships.
And then there's like such coolresearch out there how that
shifts their parenting, itshifts the way that they're
interacting with the world, itshifts how they see themselves
and their experience ofthemselves and others.
And so I think that this, thisidea of insecurity, for me has
always been like holding up,like this big lantern of hope,
(05:42):
you know, especially with myclients who maybe didn't have
big beacons of hope growing up.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I love that you're doing this, especially because,
for all as we're talking aboutfrom the perspective of mentors
and supervisors and superviseesrelationship, we have this idea.
When we went to our master'sprogram and all of you who are
there, you know who you are.
You're not reading aboutattachment unless you have to,
so I'm calling you out, but allof us, when we went into our
(06:09):
master's program, we thoughtthat what both we suggested was
that you have that attachmentstyle and then you were doomed.
So most of us go into grief,thinking like my God.
We go into the fantasy, grief,anger, like all these things,
because we feel like we're doneand when, in reality, in the
(06:31):
last couple of years more than acouple of years the new
research that is emerging asyou're discussing, and the new
books that are coming out,they're saying we actually have
multiple attachment styles withdifferent people, which is such
a beautiful reframe of givinghope.
I love the lantern metaphorthat you use, which is exactly
it.
And then taking it to thispoint of the research that
(06:54):
you're doing in regards tosupervisees, mentors and
supervisors, how beautiful it isbecause we are in systems where
they're asking us to beprofessional all the time, to
attend to but not have awarenessof what is happening for you in
that session and in thatrelationship, how beautiful and
important job you're doing rightnow focusing on that.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Thanks.
I think that that's beensomething you know, being a
supervisor for the last twodecades.
That's remind us you know alittle bit, a little plus with
that.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Nobody do the math.
Nobody do the math.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You know, one of the things, especially in social
work, is there's not a lot oftraining on how to become a
supervisor.
You don't actually have to taketraining on how to be a
supervisor.
You have to be licensed for twoyears and it's like, okay,
great, go supervise In othermental health disciplines.
You know, my MFT friends knowthat.
Oh, you actually have to do alot of training on how to become
(08:03):
a supervisor.
Yes, you know, lpc, I think, isreally similar, where it's like
there's not a lot of training.
It's like do it if you want,but you don't really have to,
and so you know we have this.
So many people out there whohave such good intent and how to
supervise, but if you haven'tdone like your own work, or
(08:24):
you're not familiar withfamiliar with what supervision
could even entail, you know, Ithink a lot of times, like
everyone's doing the best thatthey know how to, and there's so
much more that goes insupervision besides just talking
about cases and doing paperwork, and you know, so much of this,
though, is dependent upon whatthe supervisor's training is
(08:45):
Right.
So if you were never trained inunderstanding
countertransference andtransference, for example, like
that, those aren't bad things,but they're actually amazing
tools to use in the same way assomebody else.
And I think, like the art ofpsychodynamic theory is
(09:06):
definitely going out of vogue,but those foundational elements
of of mental health, I'm likeall the theories come from this,
you know, and and I thinksometimes that part gets missed
you know how important theseexperiences, experiences like
the between and within that'shappening right, like it's not
(09:28):
just how what's coming up foryou or what you think about
what's coming up for somebodyelse, but figuring out, okay,
now, what's the in-between spaceand what is this really about.
And and I think whensupervisors take the time to get
to know the person, the soul ofthe therapist they're
supervising, and allow them toget to know you, it changes
(09:48):
everything.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think I know my ownexperience of being promoted to
supervisor was I was lasttherapist standing.
I didn't have additionaltraining, I didn't even at the
time have the want for saidresponsibilities.
I didn't even fully understandthe risks and liabilities I was
taking on in that new position.
(10:12):
And as I've got a couple ofyears not quite as many as you
as a supervisor, but under mybelt, what I see in my
mentorships and supervision isnew supervisors often will, like
we see, reflected with parents,right, like I'm either going to
replicate what was what Iexperienced or I'm going to
(10:32):
swing to the opposite end andtry to do everything different.
If I felt like that was anegative experience and that's
survival, right, like we knowthat that's, that's survival.
But I would love to see moreintentional work around building
up supervisors and trainingaround how to be a supervisor
(10:52):
that includes all of this andnot just how to watch
productivity and reviewdocumentation.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Right.
So I love that the three of usare in consensus of we need more
.
So, for all of you who arelistening out there, what Claire
and Maria are talking about iswhen you go to school and you're
like I want to become asupervisor, every state has
completely differentrequirements.
Some states you don't have todo anything.
In some states you do.
Most of us tend to besupervisors either of licensure
(11:28):
or credentialing, and mosttherapists still do not
understand the differencebetween the two.
And what you are suggesting, orwhat you're talking about here,
claire, is more than thelogistics of going through
checklists to meet requirementsfor licensure and credentialing.
What you're suggesting is howdo we build and empower
supervisees?
How do we mentor from arelational point of view?
(11:52):
Or, as Brené Brown, one of herlatest podcasts, was talking
about, we went from leadershipof task-oriented to
brain-oriented, toheart-oriented now.
So it's that relational piecethat you're discussing, and we
do have to show up in order togive a different template which
(12:14):
does what you're suggesting froman attachment perspective, in
order for them to see themselvesand trust themselves in this
development journey that theyare embarking on.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love that being heart centered.
That resonates so much with me.
You know, like how I, how Iapproach life, but I think
especially these relationships.
And you know, maria, I thinkthat you had a really good point
too.
You know, so much of ourtraining is what we experience,
(12:47):
right.
And so I can think back to myearly years.
I had a phenomenal, phenomenalexperience with a supervisor in
grad school, my other internship.
I was really grateful I hadother colleagues in there that
could help fill in the gaps,because it wasn't quite that
same level of relationship there.
(13:07):
And, and I'm so grateful thatother people could help fill in
the spaces that you know wherethere was gaps.
And those two experiencesdefinitely taught me the kind of
person I wanted to show up andbe, which was modeling.
After my first supervisor, youknow, I look back at that first
(13:31):
experience in social work and Ijust have so much gratitude
because I was surroundedsurrounded by mentors who
absolutely loved me.
I knew that I was loved.
They supported me, theystretched me, they challenged me
and they also took me undertheir wing.
(13:52):
And I say collectively, becausethat was my experience with
every licensed person that I wasworking with.
I had an amazing supervisor,but I also had this collection
of mentors that you know, reallypaved the pathway for what I'm
even doing, you know, taught meabout play therapy, gave me
(14:13):
language for this, had meexperience this, you know, and,
and set the stage for this wholeprofessional development of who
I, who I've become and continueto be coming.
You know, and, and I think back, if, like, my only experience
had been the opposite of that,what a different professional
(14:34):
development I may have had.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, for me it's like well,yes, of course, claire, your
focus on attachment andrelationships, because you had
that from the beginning in yourcareer path, at least.
Right, and and not everyone isas lucky, I think I'm more and
more I run into like people haveboth experiences, right, we
(14:58):
have.
We have some in the good columnand we have some in the well, I
learned a lot column, and Ithink I think both of those
things are true, and because wedo, we learn.
We learn from the good and fromthe bad, and I, you know, I'm I
know that this is part of yourresearch, but I'm wondering,
like are there a couple ofthings that you can share with
(15:19):
our listeners in terms of, likelittle nuggets that have come up
for you that you feel like, oh,this, people need to know about
this, mm-hmm yes, I'm likewhere do you even start?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So I think some of the things that have stood out
to me as a supervisor superviseeas well, as you know listening
to the stories from my research,which that was like a whole
nother level of just beautifulhumility, like such an honor for
people to share their storieswith me and to trust me with.
We weren't talking about easythings.
(15:57):
You know, talking about yourattachment history with a
stranger is something that is so, takes so much courage and is
so brave and and so reallythinking and wanting to honor
the participants in the study aswell, and so really thinking
and wanting to honor theparticipants in the study as
well, man, it's amazing, youknow, like I think about that
and like my heart just is sofull for them and for that
(16:21):
experience.
One of the stories you knowcoming from the research was
there's been a few differentones, you know where the earned
security started actually bybeing a teenager and being
forced to go to therapy andfinding their first earned
security experience through thattherapeutic relationship with
(16:44):
their therapist and, for thefirst time, having an adult
truly see them for who they are,love them as they are,
experience this worth anddignity of a person where
they've never had an adult treatthem in that way before.
Yeah, and it was through thatexperience of having this
(17:08):
beautiful therapeuticrelationship that that planted
the seed of this is what I wantto do, and there were a few
similar stories.
Most of the therapists in myresearch study did not come from
idealistic upbringing.
You know that thing that wealways say like oh, we're all
(17:33):
wounded healers.
You know, like there's, there'ssome truth in this Out of all my
participants, I had two peoplethat you know kind of
self-identified, having a secureattachment growing up with
their caregivers and theirparents.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Wow, but I think that that's a good representation,
right Like that's an honestrepresentation, yep.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And for all the other ones, right, like this idea of
earned security, seeds began tobe planted and other safe
grownups, right.
That kind of paved the way oflike I want to become somebody
that I never had.
I want to be a safe grownupbecause I didn't have one.
I had this beautiful experiencewith a therapist or with a
(18:17):
mentor, or with a teacher or afriend or a lover, whatever this
was.
I want to be that because Ididn't have that, you know.
And so as we talk about theways that we're shaped and how
we become like, you know thesepathways, you know, one of the
things that I oftentimes teach,you know, when we're talking
(18:38):
about attachment and attachmenttheory is I usually, you know,
kind of refer to these keypeople as birthday candles.
And so you know, like, the wayI conceptualize this is like if
you have one little tiny cakecandle, one little birthday
candle, and you're all alone inthe dark, it's not enough to see
what's out in front of you,like in the distance, but it's
(18:59):
enough to see what's right hereand through our life we go
around collecting birthdaycandles, and if you have a
handful of birthday candles,that becomes a torch, and so
when you're alone in a darkspace.
That is enough to see what'sahead of you and ways to help
(19:22):
pave you, you know, pave a safepathway forward.
And listening to the storiesabout how important these
different mentors and thesesupervisors and these safe
grownups, you know likeoftentimes, especially when
you're working with a little oneor you're in contact with
another human, they might be ina big person body but they're
still in that really woundedlittle person world.
You may have no idea thatyou're making a difference.
(19:44):
Yeah, like men, because they'renot going to show you.
You know, and it's, it's notuntil you've been in
relationship for years, monthsand years and maybe even as well
after that time has ended.
And you know this is one ofthose things like being in the
(20:06):
field as long as I have, youknow, like there's been times
where I've gotten a graduationannouncement or a letter or a
marriage announcement or youknow, you know you've been in
the field for a really, really,really long time.
If they bring their child tocome see you and all these years
they've been carrying thisbirthday candle of this was a
(20:27):
safe place for me.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
That is powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's powerful.
I think, uh, even in our roleas a play therapist or a
therapist, that it doesn'tmatter the credential that you
have, we tend to minimize whatwe do because we're focusing on
we're focusing on task um, thetherapy session, the treatment
plan, the so on and so forththat we tend to forget how we
are secure base for our clientsand secure base for our
(21:00):
supervisees or our mentorees,and we forget that relational
piece.
And you're highlighting ittoday.
You are lighting on a candletoday to say, hey, did you
remember this piece?
You are lighting on a candletoday to say, hey, did you
remember this piece?
And in that intent of you know,I always ask in my supervision
trainings what is the failedsense that you want to create in
(21:21):
supervision?
What was the failed sense foryou?
And any time that we go intothe group activity, you know
what they share is this is whatI like, this is what I don't
like, this is what I want toduplicate, what I don't like,
this is what I want to replicate.
And I was like perfect, butthat intention, what is it that
we have to do to?
To create a secure base of?
(21:41):
Go explore, I'll be here rightwhich is like go free, and in
that, for us as supervisors andmentors, we are working on
earning that security because weare creating a different
template for them that hopefullythey get to duplicate, not only
(22:03):
with their clients but laterwith their supervisors too.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Absolutely, and I love that idea that we're
earning that.
Yeah, just as much as they areRight, because I mean we can be
like I'm safe here, come engagewith me, I'm so nice, right.
But without relationship, and atrue relationship, an authentic
relationship safety cannot beestablished.
(22:29):
You know one of the things Ilove that Steve Pargeas has
taught over the years, you know,but he says our, our brains.
First question, wherever wewalk into, is am I safe, am I
safe?
Am I safe?
Am I safe, am I safe?
Yeah, right.
So we all have like thesebeacons out there of like
where's my safe places, Where'smy safe people?
And and as soon as you find,you know that that safety in
(22:54):
there, it's like your wholebody's like okay, I can relax, I
can be fine, we're okay.
You know, but those earlystages of supervision may not
feel that way for either one ofyou.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
yeah, and I think I think it's important that we can
recognize that.
I think it's important thatwe're saying it out loud,
because I think there's thismisconception of like, of course
I'm safe, I'm a supervisor,right, and we can all sit here
and laugh going.
I had supervisors who were notsafe people.
And just because you've been inthe field longer or you have
(23:28):
this title or this credentialdoes not automatically the
assumption is not that you are asafe person.
That is still something thatneeds to be earned.
That is something that you know.
There may be ruptures andrepairs that still need to
happen.
Right, like it is, it is verymuch a relationship that we are
creating and I think being ableto, as a supervisor and as a
mentor of other supervisors,being like it's okay that
(23:51):
they're not fully trusting youthat's, that's actually a really
healthy response to this newrelationship.
Right, because instantattachment isn't always the
safest either.
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Right, and, as we always teach our people, rapport
is different from relationship.
Yes, right, and I thinksometimes it's easy to miss that
because, like, oh, we justjacked together.
This is great, you know, andbecause it feels good on the
surface, it's easy to stay therefor both the supervisor and the
(24:24):
supervisee.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Surface is the safest point of view, right?
I always picture like thatrelationship being like my head
is above water and everythingelse is hidden, because, one, I
don't have the template and then, two, I am not sure that I can
trust you that way yet, right?
So that's why I said earnsecurity from a supervisor
standpoint of you, because it ismy job to work on that
(24:51):
relationship so that I createsafety, so that you feel safe
enough to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, and I love that Like
, yeah, I was picturing like aboat on water right and like
surface level is, it can besunshine and rainbows.
But like we're going to have todo hard work, we're going to
have to talk about tough stuff.
I'm going to have to, like, toethe line for some things.
I might have to be moredisciplinary, depending on your
supervision.
You know roles and requirements, and that only is going to be
(25:23):
effective and helpful if there'sa relationship here that feels
safe for both of us.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, right, right.
And I think sometimes forsupervisors that's hard Like I.
You know I've been consultingwith several people over the
last couple of years, you know,with kind of like this this
makes me sound so old the newergeneration of 30s, but you know
(25:49):
who grew up with social mediaand with the internet and with
all these things that I mean itdoes make me sound so old
talking about this, but you knowthey're a different breed, at
your fingertips, as well asbeing trained on TikTok.
You know, dr, tiktok and ofeverything is a boundary,
(26:10):
everything is toxic, everythingis like these big, huge black
and white statements and helpinghelping them understand like,
oh, but there's like so muchthat goes into this, and
figuring out again this idea ofsafety, because if you have
grown up learning that, like, inorder to resolve conflict, you
chop somebody off, like youblock them and you don't have to
(26:32):
deal with it and you never haveto be uncomfortable, like I
mean, my kids all have grown upthat way, you know and where
it's like, oh guys, that's nothow relationships work.
You have to be able to do thesethings and have uncomfortable
experiences, and that means forus, as a supervisor, we have to
be willing to have uncomfortableexperiences while maintaining
(26:53):
safety and stability, which Ithink it's easy to want to cut
that off Right and be like, oh,you make me so uncomfortable or
this is such a big headache or Idon't know how to reach you and
connect to you.
You know, like I think thatthat's a really valid experience
that a lot of supervisors arehaving right now too.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely there is there, there
are generations right withinour, within our field.
Um, you know, I know insupervision consultation that I
do, now we, we talk a lot aboutthose that that went through
school during covid and, likeit's, they had just a different
education and experience thanthan we did.
(27:33):
Right, like I've mentionedbefore another on other episodes
, like I'm, I'm old enough tosay, like, when I went to grad
school it was still very much.
You check yourself at the door,you were a blank slate, you do
not have a personality, you donot have a life outside of this
office, right, and we've come sofar and we'll continue to go
right with technologyadvancements and information
advancements which, again, Ithink, claire, this is such
(27:56):
important work and I don't knowwhat came to you and called to
you to do this work and thisresearch, but I think it's so
important because it's not beingtalked about Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And, yeah, you know, honestly, coming to this was
because of my experiences asbeing a supervisor and like
themes came up that I expected,just because attachment theory
is like my orientation of how Isee the world.
But I was, you know, it wasinteresting and I was grateful.
(28:29):
I'm grateful for my supervisor,right, my dissertation chair,
you know, because originally I'mlike, oh, here's all these
themes that are coming up, andhe's like you're looking at this
from the lens of a supervisor.
Go back to the research andlook to the story for the person
, like your job is to be talkingabout their experiences, not
what your experience of theirexperiences, which how often do
(28:52):
we get caught up in that becomesour truth, right, like, well,
my experience of your experienceas what is happening.
So this is where, like mismatchcan happen and these attachment
ruptures and supervision canhappen so easily too, you know,
and and so for him to be kind oflike, point me in some very
(29:14):
grateful, but you know it's,it's a piece of humble pie to be
like, oh, my little friend,you're looking at this in a
totally different lens than whatyou're supposed to be doing
right now.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You know, and two weeks you just did we're going
to have to redo them.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, pretty much that's what it was, but I was so
grateful for that because I wasreading everything through the
lens of a supervisor and througha therapist because like that's
, that's my job, like that'swhat I do, you know.
And so going back to being liketrying kind of resettling that
researcher hat it, like it wasamazing the shift that could
(29:50):
happen, and like I stoppedgetting in my own way, you know,
and it made me think about, youknow, my role as a supervisor
how often this probably happensand I'm not aware of it.
Sure, sure, you know.
And how often maybe theselittle ruptures are occurring
and we're not aware of it orit's easy to brush it off of
like oh, I was just having a badday and not coming back to do
(30:11):
the repair of, hey, I'm so sorryI was late, you know, I'm I'm
so sorry we had this, you know,technology glitch, I, you know,
like going back and doing theselittle repairs, like we have to
be modeling this with oursupervisors too, because that's
also how we create security andattachment and it's easy to kind
(30:32):
of blow off the little thingsbecause you're focused on the
big things or what you think isthe most important thing instead
of what's actually there underthe surface.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Because even in those statements, I was like oh my
God, from a cultural perspective, you're talking about
gaslighting microaggressions.
I'm like, this doesn't matter,what are you talking about?
Um.
But then, like, since youstarted this episode, I'm like,
oh claire, what are you gonna doabout leadership?
Then, what is it that you'reworking on?
Because you're absolutely right, we don't have it, um, not in
(31:09):
any supervision training,because even as, uh, I think
Maria and I were both AMFTapproved supervisors.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not an AMFT, but it's approved.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, I was going to say like, yeah, right, so that's
at least 18 months that you'rereading you're writing.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It felt like a mini dissertation.
It was.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
That's what it was considered.
Mine wasn't anything near tothat.
In Utah we have a little lowerstandards of what you have to be
, but yes, I know it's like that.
But that supervision experienceis way different than doing
like a six hour CEU course oflike you can be a supervisor now
.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Like that's cute when I hear that I was like, well,
that's so cute, supervisor.
Now, like that's cute when Ihear that I was like, well,
that's so cute.
Um, for all of you who are notseeing me, because you guys are
listening to us, um, I tend touse my hands and my face a lot
because I was like, oh, that isso cute.
Okay, uh, call me when you havethe reality check.
(32:10):
Um, but even when we take thetraining, then later we have to
go do refreshers.
We're not off the hook, um, andand usually is a weekend where
we have to go keep our livesagain and remember the trauma of
reviewing all of that stuff.
So, welcome, claire, to thatnightmare.
Um, we cannot wait for you totell us about your refresher.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
But enjoyable.
I am sorry there's like someawesome trainers in Utah that
just make it actually kind offun.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Okay, we're not gonna hate you at this point.
But okay, next time we'll go toUtah.
As you're talking, I'm like,wow, what a great opportunity
that you're going to have to goand take our supervision
training and infuse theattachment lens Right and
(33:04):
actually talk, as Brené Brown istalking about leadership, not
from a task management, not froma micromanagement, which is
what associations are doing, butto combining right brain and
heart.
Yeah, I cannot wait to see whatyou're going to create here.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
It's kind of fun to like yeah, I'm like there's been
some things percolating, butfirst I need to just graduate
before I start anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
But one bite at a time.
One bite at a time.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Exactly, but no, it is, and like the thought of, you
know, being able to just shedsome light on this, because we
don't talk about this stuff, youknow, and we don't talk about
the importance of this in in therelationship and why
relationship matters, and so Ithink that you know this is,
(33:57):
it's a, it's a next chapter.
You know it's going to be funto see kind of like where, the,
where we start growing this, howI start growing this.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
I think it's so powerful that what was true in
early childhood doesn't mean itwill always be true for you
because that had been themessage for so long.
Right, oh, that was yourchildhood.
Well, this is as good as itgets Buckle up right, and so
being able to have to be able toshift that message, both in the
mental health world and inattachment in general, but also,
(34:28):
you know, in pivoting thattowards supervisees and mentors
and being able to be like Iunderstand that that has been
your story to date.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
There's still hope that change can happen and it
can be better, it can bedifferent.
Yeah, kudos, kudos Again,claire, like one.
Thank you for being here too.
I am so grateful that you'retalking about this, because
every association is going tohave to send you requests after
you graduate, like trainings,because we do need them.
So I'm wondering, as we'reclosing um for today's episode,
(35:03):
what would be one thing that,what wisdom nugget that you want
to share with supervisors whoare listening today?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think, show up, like with your heart, and and
allow for a genuine relationshipto be developed, like I think a
lot of people are afraid ofdoing that, um, I think a lot of
humans are afraid of doing thator feel that like, oh, because
(35:32):
I'm you know, I'm your boss uphere, I'm your supervisor.
It's not appropriate to have afriendship or, you know,
whatever the rules andboundaries may be, and
relationship, though, can bespecific to that supervisee
supervisor relationship, youknow.
And so I think the first partthat that happens is we're not
(35:53):
blank slates, like you have tocome up in all of your authentic
messiness and wonderful bitsand pieces and the rough edges
and all of the things that makeus all human, but show up, like,
let them see you in yourhumanness so that you can see
them, and I think you will walkaway from this feeling so much
(36:17):
more fulfilled when you can havethat relationship yourself as a
supervisor.
Like.
There is an interesting threadlike what should I give?
What's a gift?
I should give my supervisorLike on Facebook a few days ago,
you know, and there's peoplethat are like, hawking their
wares and like, oh, buy this,buy this, buy this, and I'm like
you, like you're the gift, likejust who you are, as you are,
(36:42):
like and your growth anddevelopment, like that's the
gift.
And I think that when we canremember that, like that's what
keeps us all in the field isthese moments of connection.
You know, and we're kind oflaughing at a training I was
speaking at over the weekend andsomebody asked, like how many
(37:02):
people do you think you'vesupervised in Utah?
I'm like, oh my gosh, in like20 something years, I have no
idea, like no idea.
Um, it'd be, you know, kind offun to like think back and like
try to figure this out.
But you know, it's like we,each of us, have an opportunity
to help this next up-and-cominggeneration to do better and be
(37:23):
better and and help the world.
I mean, that's why we're all inthis, right, yeah again, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Thank you for your wisdom, um, thank you for
showing up and thank you foreven giving us a different model
, which is exactly what you'redoing when it comes to
mentorship and supervision.
Uh, maria, anything else do youwant to add before we go?
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I mean, just what a gift, claire, you are, the gift
um.
I love that you were able toshare um.
But yeah, I think you know themetaphors of the lantern I
always refer to as like we'replanting seeds that we never may
see fully bloom and we have totrust that they're they're doing
it.
But but we have to.
We have to do our stuff toplant the seed too.
(38:08):
Um, we have to.
We have to do our stuff so thatwe can show up authentically,
um, but yeah, what a, what agift you are and continue to be
to our field.
So thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
That's so sweet For our listeners who are out there.
We will include Claire'sinformation in our podcast so
you can reach out if you arelucky enough and privileged
enough to get a spot forconsultations with her.
But if not, please go to hertrainings so we will include her
website so you can see whenshe's doing training, so that
you can go and borrow some ofthat greatness from her.
(38:43):
Until next time, please takecare.
Bye.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Bye, thank you.
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