March 13, 2025 • 35 mins
Explore the transformative world of play therapy with our insightful guest, Jackie Flynn, a passionate mental health counselor and play therapist from Central Florida. In this enlightening episode, we unpack the power of play therapy to heal psychological trauma across all ages, thanks to the brain's remarkable ability to adapt and change. Jacqueline shares her inspirational journey and dedication to making mental health resources more accessible, especially within BIPOC communities. Recognized by EMDRIA for her advocacy, she elucidates the profound therapeutic value of play, underscoring it as a vital healing process rather than just a method to engage children.
Join us as we dive into the intricacies of therapeutic relationships and the importance of authenticity in therapy. Drawing insights from renowned experts like Marshall Lyles and Lisa Dion, we emphasize creating safe, agenda-free spaces where clients can freely express themselves. Jackie Flynn, discusses the normalization of human imperfection and the importance of empathy in therapeutic settings. Discover how play therapy can be applied beyond children to couples and families, fostering deeper connections and improving the quality of life. With insights into Dr. Siegel’s "connect and redirect" approach, this episode is an invitation to view behaviors as survival adaptations and harness the healing power of play.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria Diego (00:02):
Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCardiego, and I'm joined by my
lovely co-host.
Liliana Baylon (00:11):
That's me, the lovely Liliana Baylon.
That's right, I'm owning itthis morning and we are here
with the fabulous, jackie.
Maria Diego (00:21):
I own it too?
Liliana Baylon (00:22):
We do.
How will you want to introduceyourself for whoever is out
there that they don't know aboutyou, which is kind of hard to
believe?
But how would you want tointroduce yourself for whoever
does not know about you?
Jackie Flynn (00:36):
Well, I'm a human.
I live in Florida, CentralFlorida.
I have two kids and now twodogs.
I really love my family,especially my kids.
I'm here with my daughter todayworking.
So one of my big passions isplay therapy.
(00:58):
So I'm a mental healthcounselor and I'm a play
therapist, and also I loveworking with people that are in
pain, so I'm a trauma therapist.
So I specialize in EMDR therapyas a type of therapy that
really helps people justintegrate their psychological
(01:19):
trauma, like our digestivesystem digest food.
It's pretty amazing how itworks.
It works with kids.
I love nature.
I love reading.
I'm getting better at writing.
I thought I loved writing tillI was writing a book and I was
like this is kind of hard.
So I'm a risk taker and I lovethe sunrise.
(01:41):
I think that's probably themost important things about me
so far and I love the sunrise.
Liliana Baylon (01:44):
I think that's probably the most important
things about me so far.
Love it.
So, for anyone who's up there,if you follow Jackie on social
media, she will post videos ofFlorida with sunrise and they're
so gorgeous.
It's like mindfulness in thatmoment for all of us who follow
you.
Jackie Flynn (02:00):
Oh gosh, that's great to think about.
It's so pretty it's hard not toshare it.
Liliana Baylon (02:06):
And before we start with the topic, for
everyone who's listening there,Jackie got recognized by EMDRIA
this year.
Do you want to tell them youraward?
Jackie Flynn (02:15):
Oh my goodness, I feel so honored and it's
interesting.
I was a little surprisedbecause I feel like people have
helped me so much and I gotrecognized through the MDREA
Advocacy Award for helpingothers, specifically BIPOC
communities, and being able tohelp people get consultation and
training and just have accessto resources and credentialing
(02:41):
that they wouldn't haveotherwise.
So to get that, I was like, ohmy goodness, I literally cried
because it's like the mostspecial thing to have somebody
say those nice things about me.
But it's interesting, peoplehave done that for me so it
really didn't seem like I wasdoing intentionally as much as
it seems like the whole EMDRcommunity has this vibe of where
(03:05):
we just help each other out andI just felt like another one of
the helpers.
So to get that was like wow.
Liliana Baylon (03:14):
You are deserving of, and thank you,
thank you for helping ourcommunity.
So, jackie, what is it thatwe're going to be talking about
this morning.
What is it that we're going tobe talking about this morning?
Jackie Flynn (03:24):
Well, for years I've worked as a play therapist
and I know that play and I knewright from the beginning that's
why I wanted to be a playtherapist.
I knew that play had thiscapacity to heal children that
otherwise wouldn't be able toget the mental health support,
(03:45):
but I never really knew why playwas healing.
I knew what it helped with, butwhy is it helpful?
So I dug into the neuroscienceof it and I found myself saying
the same phrase over and overagain in consultation and
therapy, as a consultation andsupervision Play is the therapy.
Play, I mean.
(04:05):
I think a lot of times,especially before people even go
into the field of mental health, they think, well, play is just
a way to get a child to talk,just to give like help, them to
feel comfortable so they canwork on what they need to work
on.
But in reality it truly is thetherapy, therapy and it works
with all ages, from little bittybaby all the way up until until
(04:31):
you die.
Really, the brain isneuroplastic.
So I'd like to talk about howplay is the therapy when we're
working with kids and families,and even I use it in my couples
work because I think ourtendency and this kind of like
my main foundation.
Our tendency is to think well,I need to do something, I need
(04:53):
to give something, and as ateacher I used to be a teacher
the big thing was I need a goodworksheet or I need something
for them to do, when in reality,it is the shared experience of
play.
This togetherness, this beingauthentic, helps the nervous
system to get on track.
It's how we're wired.
(05:13):
That's what I like, and it's notalways fun, but it's
therapeutic.
Liliana Baylon (05:18):
I love that.
But I love what do you think,Maria?
Because I love where you wentin, which is we the three of us
are registered, play therapistsupervisors right, and we
believe in play.
We truly do.
But you just hit the nail whenyou said I knew that play
therapy had the capacity to heal, but I didn't understood why.
(05:40):
Yeah, it's funny because in ourfield they has been so much
money loving.
Why is it worth?
Is it okay if I say loving,because that's exactly what it
is?
Um, there's a whole book aboutit and all of us have read it
right, the tenets of flighttherapy.
Yet it doesn't make sense.
(06:01):
How do we sell it?
We memorize, yeah, but we don'ttruly understand.
So I love that you went there.
Which is, how do we integrateit so that when we're talking,
we're so passionate about itbecause we understand from the
part of the brain?
Jackie Flynn (06:20):
Yeah, when you said how do we sell it?
That's like where we're reallyat home, because I was like I
don't know how to explain thisto parents.
I just know that it helps.
It helps and that's not enough.
I promise you this is going tohelp.
But why are you playing?
This is a lot of time, a lot ofmoney, they're having some big
(06:42):
behaviors, they're in pain.
They're having some bigbehaviors, they're in pain.
Why are you playing?
I'm like, but it helps, that'snot a good enough answer, like
what's happening?
That, and then when I like it'sreally simple, what's happening
.
I mean simple.
It's complex, but you canexplain it.
And play allows us to experiencesafety and distress at the same
(07:03):
time, so that we can have, wecan have this opportunity, and
y'all are plate therapysupervisors, so I know we're all
like, uh, we're on this big,let the child struggle so that
they can have this opportunityfor success.
And so it's not alwaysnecessarily fun, but it's.
(07:23):
It's pretty amazing how it canwiden that window of tolerance.
It can help people expressthings that otherwise would be
expressible.
It could help us connect withpeople in ways that's otherwise
inaccessible.
Just because it's too raw andsometimes it's too buried.
It could be like you know, somekind of you think of trauma can
(07:48):
happen when we are dissociatedbecause things were just too
much, maybe we just went intothis hyper arousal, then this
equivalent of the emotionalbreaker blew in the nervous
system and shut down to hyperarousal, so it could even be in
dissociative states.
People can have traumapre-verbal, before they even
(08:09):
have that part of the brain thatis developed.
And think about that couldhappen in real early childhood,
that can happen in birth processor it can happen in utero or
this is kind of mind-blowing tothink about before conception,
like in intergenerational trauma.
It can be carried down throughlike painful that gives me like
(08:34):
chills to think about it likepainful generations have endured
so much.
It gets carried down throughthe cells and then the child is
taught from a very early agethat the world is safe or the
world's not safe or whatever theworldview is.
And play lets us access thatwhere words can't even go, and
(08:55):
words are amazing but they limitus and they're very much
influenced by culturaldifferences, much influenced by
cultural differences.
So to have this humility to beable to connect with someone as
a human and not be limited byjust phrases that are meaningful
to some and not to others.
Play gives us all of that andmore.
Maria Diego (09:18):
I love that.
I love that so much.
I think that is one of thethings I tell parents and I tell
supervisees to tell parents isyou know, as an adult, have you
ever had an experience wherewords failed?
You Like you just didn't havethe words to express what was
going on for you.
That's true for kids all of thetime, right, like even their
(09:41):
happy emotions.
They don't fully have theverbiage to fully.
I love that you talk about playbeing the therapy because it's
relational and it's experientialand just in being, rather than
a product.
Right, like I know, like youknow, referring back to your
(10:02):
teacher years, I know, comingout of early grad programs,
right, it's like here's aworksheet, here's the goal,
here's the thing we're going todo so that you get better the
goal.
Liliana Baylon (10:16):
Here's the thing we're going to do so that you
get better.
Now we're talking about right,the system.
I I also love that, by the way,maria, when jackie was talking
about it feels like I need to dosomething.
Well, that's the system.
Telling a mental healththerapist by evidence, by right,
when you send in our language,by the models that we choose, is
(10:36):
you have to show me.
Are we stuck?
Are we at the beginning?
Are we advancing?
How do you know?
So there's this cheat that youhave to follow or you have to
provide in order for me to track, because in that system we're
working on the medical modelthat tells us what to do and how
(10:57):
to do it, and the limit onsessions that we can do right,
so I need to do something comesfrom a very colonized mentality
in regards to how are you goingto show me right?
Jackie Flynn (11:12):
Yeah, and I I think too, like from a client's
perspective.
I mean all that documentationis not my favorite, but from a
client's perspective you canfeel if somebody's like truly
with you.
I love marshall lyles.
Y'all know him.
(11:33):
For anyone listening thathasn't heard of Marshall Lyles,
he's one of the best humans thatever, ever like, was born.
But one of his things I learnedfrom him is like don't go into
it with agenda, like I need thisand this and this to happen,
and don't gauge our value andour effectiveness as a therapist
(11:55):
based on somebody's healing,because people heal in their own
time.
So me to come in to like you'regoing to not be anxious in
three weeks from now and you'regoing to sleep through the night
in four weeks from now and yourare going to tell me that
you're 40% more relaxed duringdinner time.
(12:16):
It just doesn't make sense.
It takes the humanity out of itand I understand the need for
tracking, data and stuff, but itreally doesn't necessarily jive
with humanity and what theyneed is another human that's
authentic.
I know we have this commonadmiration for Lisa Dion's work
(12:40):
in synergetic play therapy andone thing, and I think I learned
so much about life from her,not even necessarily just about
play therapy.
But one thing that I reallytook away is is authenticity.
We show up as humans and I knowbefore we got on this recording
lilliana, you mentioned aboutthat like bringing uh, coming
(13:02):
into therapy as a blank spacejust isn't a reality.
That like takes away ourhumanity.
If that was the case, thenrobots could do this therapy
right and they and they'retrying, but they're not great at
it.
They need somebody that couldshare their nervous systems with
them and also share theknowledge and the felt sense of
(13:25):
this is hard and I see what'shappening here and I could feel
you and breathe through it.
It's like a big deal.
Maria Diego (13:33):
It's the therapy Absolutely, and I love that too.
Right, you both, in expressivetherapies, you know whether
that's art and sand tray and inplay, right, it removes the
agenda when we are able to belike this is my space, you can
do what you need to in thisspace and I'm going to be here
with you in it.
Right, so we can chuck theagenda, which you know insurance
(13:57):
companies don't love, themedical model doesn't love,
parents don't love, Schoolsystems don't love.
But we know that's what works,yeah, right.
We can talk to Johnny about hisanger outbursts for an hour
every week.
Liliana Baylon (14:10):
That's not going to get us where you want us to
be this is where, for all of you, who is the new cohort coming
out and you're like what do youmean?
I'm talking to johnny aboutanger and he still is getting
angry like I don't understand.
We talk about it for twosessions.
How come johnny is notimproving?
And when we're smiling assupervisors?
(14:33):
And when we're smiling assupervisors, we're smiling
because we remember the failedsense of that frustration of not
knowing how to help our clients, when in reality, our job as
mental health therapist hasnever been to fix, because that
implies there's something wrongwith you.
Yeah, as mental healththerapists, how can I be with
(14:54):
you so that I can show youdifferent ways and you get to
pick?
Your nervous system gets topick what is the best way for
you.
Jackie Flynn (15:07):
I love that and rolling back the years like
we've been there.
We've been there.
That's a scary place and it's areality that a workbook feels
like a lifeline it's like I'mwith this, 14 year old and I am
so nervous I have all theseworksheets just right here for
me but in reality I mean we allstart somewhere and that and
(15:30):
it's not even I love.
I actually love like um work, Imake workbooks like I love um
directive pieces, but that hasto come after the relational
safety.
So from like a nervous systemor brain perspective you really
connect right hemisphere toright hemisphere and you help to
(15:53):
explore and add safety, exploreall the pain, allow that
expression to happen and thentogether you like cross this
bridge of the corpus callosum,like holding hands, and then you
go into the left hemispherewhich for kids is not even fully
developed until mid to latetwenties.
So we don't want to rely toomuch on that.
But once the safety is thereand once expression's there,
(16:17):
then they have more access tothe higher level thinking part
of their brains and then theycan get the information.
If we start off with that, thenwe're going to fall short and
maybe even make therapy notaccessible for them.
If they have a bad experience,they may have a bad taste in the
mouth for therapy forever andtherapy is pretty cool.
(16:38):
It can change lives.
Maria Diego (16:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I think one of the things thatyou're talking about I put it as
play therapists.
One of our first jobs with ourclients is to make sure that
we're known as not just anotheradult in their life.
We are a different type ofadult in their life, right,
because we don't rely on heavyverbiage we don't.
(17:00):
We're not punitive we're not,you know.
We're not a punishment, youknow, although parents like to
be like, you know, you're goingto go see Miss Maria because you
got in trouble this week, right?
So part of our that buildingsafety, though, is proving that
we're a different type of anadult in their life, and that's
hard for everyone to trust, for,you know, initially it's hard
(17:22):
for kids to trust, it's hard forthe adults in the room to trust
, but I think that that speaksto that relational piece, and
that sense of safety is becausewe behave differently as play
therapists.
Jackie Flynn (17:35):
Oh, it's so good.
I never thought about thatbefore, about we're showing up
differently than what they'reused to and change is a cue of
danger.
So we need to add lots ofopportunity for safety, but
being able to be different.
Then we can allow for thosestories to unfold, we can allow
(17:55):
them to say the things, do thethings that they need to do to
process, to integrate thiswithout shutting it down,
because I do show up verydifferent as a therapist than I
do as a parent.
I never thought about, like I'm, I'm gonna start explaining it,
like because that normalizesfor parents, be like I can't do
(18:19):
that.
That's, that's where we come in, that's why we're here.
Liliana Baylon (18:23):
It's the normalization for parents, right
, when parents come in and thenshare with us.
I tend to normalize look, I amper se, the fun person person
because I am allowing your childto come and explore and be and
there's no judgment in regardsto you have to clean up.
You have to do it this waybecause I'm attuning to what is
it that is showing up in theroom and what is it that needs
(18:45):
to be processed.
And you got the harder jobbecause I only get your child
maybe for one hour a week, ifright.
So it's just a snapshot of whatyou get to experience every day
and society has differentexpectations for you.
Society is telling you yourchild is a representation of you
(19:05):
, so therefore your child has togo through all these checklists
.
That's a lot of projectionsonto you that they're not fair
and they're not realistic.
Therefore, society is settingyou up to fail, to never be
worthy of, and the person that Iknow that is showing up for
here bringing your child totherapy, is worthy of love and
(19:26):
empathy.
Jackie Flynn (19:27):
Oh, that's beautiful because it's
parenting's heart.
Liliana Baylon (19:32):
That's beautiful because it's parenting's heart.
Yes, For all of us.
Our text, by the way, Jackie'sbeen like my child, my child
help me, Because we need eachother also to normalize those
parts that we don't get to talkabout as therapists or the
parents fantasize.
They create this fantasy thatwe are the perfect parents.
(19:54):
Yes, I am so far removed fromthat.
Maria Diego (19:59):
Trust.
When my kids are old enough andlistening to this podcast, they
will attest and they willcomment that is not fact, I have
older children Like Jackie.
Liliana Baylon (20:11):
So my children are 26 and 21.
And what they say about me isnot kind.
And then I start laughing.
I'm like, yeah, sounds aboutright.
Jackie Flynn (20:23):
It's humbling.
I remember, like years ago,that I even have an experience
in the grocery store and thenseeing this is when I was a
teacher seeing one of my theparents at the school and I was
like, uh-oh, we need to pull ittogether, let's turn around.
(20:45):
And there was this almost likeand I think this really speaks
to how it is before we normalizethe humanity in it that, like,
we're people too, but that'swhat makes us effective that's
what makes it so good yeah, yeah, we're flawed, we have.
We have imperfections andcelebrate those instead of
(21:08):
squishing them out.
But it is when somebody seesyou in the um, in the grocery
store and it's like oh, there'smrs jones, oh, we were just in a
meeting talking about how tohelp her kid not do the same
thing that I'm struggling withright at this very moment I know
all of you.
Liliana Baylon (21:28):
Uh, I was gonna say, but I remember one time in
target I saw, saw a parent.
I was like me too, girl Me.
I was like I have two choices.
I can go into shame what am Imodeling with that?
Or I can go into like, oh yeah,me too you have any ideas in
this moment, because right now,I'm just a parent.
(21:49):
So normalizing it right BecauseI love the conversation that
we're having, which is one playis what is healing for any
individual, jackie.
You're saying not only fromchildhood to when we die, but
it's also the ability to.
Can I model with, can I attunewith you, can I model with, can
(22:13):
I attune with you, can I makesense of for you and can I show
you a different way that wecould co-regulate together while
you're expressing what you needBecause I want to honor that
and I want to model how can youadvocate for your needs and for
the way that you regulate?
I will not project onto you howyou should regulate.
(22:33):
There's many systems doing thatalready.
Jackie Flynn (22:37):
Yeah, yeah, because that leads to inadequacy
.
I'm not good enough and I thinkplay really just embeds that
felt sense of I matter, I'mworthy, I'm good enough.
I'm worth spending time with.
I'm likable.
I'm good enough, I'm worthspending time with.
I'm likable, I'm lovable.
It's a unique experience theway that we play with these
(23:00):
people.
I would even do it with mycouples and adults.
Oh yes.
Maria Diego (23:04):
I love doing play therapy with couples and family
systems.
That's so fun Because it getsit initially, makes especially
like older teens and up rightadults, couples, families.
It makes everyone reallyuncomfortable and I'm like this
is where I get to do the work,right, like you're not going to
be comfortable in here and thatlets me get in.
But, jackie, you know, westarted this conversation too
(23:27):
about talking like how do wetell parents, how do we tell
bigger systems why you know thewhy behind what we do?
How do we?
Because, like we're talkingabout like generational traumas
right, we were talking like evenon the cellular level because
we can't sit there and say inthis 55 minutes I'm holding
(23:49):
space for not only what they'veexperienced in their little
lives but also the generationaltrauma.
My brain has neuro neuronsturned on and so it's actively
creating safety for your kiddo.
We, I am following, I amtracking, I am relaying that
they're important and whatthey're like.
We can't say all this.
Jackie Flynn (24:13):
What did she just?
Maria Diego (24:14):
say how can we share with parents systems in a
way?
Have you found verbiage?
Jackie Flynn (24:23):
Yeah, I think of it as an elevator pitch.
So you know, like elevatortakes a certain amount depending
on what building you're in.
I'm sure it varies.
But imagine we're in, say, a10-story building.
But imagine we're in, say, a10-story building and I hop on
the elevator with someone andthey're telling me about
(24:46):
something that their child isstruggling with and in this
scenario I want to share aboutplate therapy.
I really lean on I mean in somany ways, but I lean on Dr
Siegel's connect and redirect soI take in what they're needing,
or really just connect in whatthey're experiencing, some
empathic Like oh, so you saidlike it's hard to even get your
child up to go to school andthere's some big behavior.
(25:10):
Oh gosh, it does soundfrustrating.
You know what I want to tell youabout a type of therapy that
allows and I listen to whatthey've kind of in this elevator
pitch scenario, whateverthey've tried, and you know they
feel felt, they feel heard, andthen I'll offer it to their
left hemisphere there's thistype of therapy, it's play
(25:33):
therapy and it's a therapy thathelps us go way beyond words.
It helps to recalibrate thenervous system, it widens the
window of tolerance and one bigway that we do that is, allow an
(26:02):
opportunity to express thatbypasses people's limits of what
can and can't be done.
So there's opportunities toexpress in ways that otherwise
wouldn't even be available tothem, and sometimes with kids it
allows us to access what'sinaccessible through words
because of brain development.
And then I slip into many of myclients say that it's like they
can see their child, sometimesfor the first time, because the
(26:22):
behavior gets in the way of lifeand quality of life, because
they're adaptations for survival.
Really there's a function, andI do say it more eloquently than
that in the brand, but it'sthis organic flow of connect.
This is what you're experiencing.
I see you, I feel you, I hearyou.
Hey, let me tell you about thiscool thing that can help, and
(26:46):
this is what it is, and this iswhat some other clients say and
then just allow for theirresponse.
Maria Diego (26:54):
I love that Because it's the same path, right?
It's the same process that wedo with the clients in our room
(27:18):
dimension.
Jackie Flynn (27:18):
I'm like hold on, let's lift the hood and see
what's going on first, before westart getting all these plans.
That's going to cost high moneyand all these resources.
I know kids aren't cars andit's not that simple, but we
don't want to barrel in with.
Every kid that has troublesleeping through the night needs
intervention.
A, b and C.
They need some human connection.
They need safety added and ahuman to just really
(27:39):
conceptualize their case with asmuch of a clear clinical
picture, including interactivity, where they can feel in their
nervous system.
We can kind of feel what it'slike to be that kid.
Lisa Dion says and this is whenI asked her a question one time
about like Dion says and this iswhen I asked her a question one
(28:00):
time about like a lot of timeswe work with adopted adoptees
and we don't have history and itcan seem really difficult to
work with someone and you don'tknow their early childhood
history.
And she's like in all actuality, in play therapy, specifically
synergetic play therapy, is whatshe's created.
That we love is amazing.
You, the child hands you theworld like.
(28:21):
You can feel what it's like tobe them and that informs you
where to go next.
So I think important to ourfield is to continuously just
keep on learning, explore andconnect with those and inspire
you.
And it's not necessarily thatone therapy type of the many
types of play therapy, not onethat's better than another.
(28:43):
You align with what's authenticto you and then you can show up
authentically.
So some therapists are moreprescriptive in nature and some
are very non-directive.
I consider myself a littletowards non-directive but not a
purist.
So I think that piece of justbeing able to truly be aware
(29:06):
that we're humans and we havevalue just because we can show
up in a very, say, unconditional, positive regard is one of the
terms we learn in grad school.
It's like they can be who theyare to a certain limit.
Another thing Lisa Dion teachesis boundaries are really about
the therapist, about how muchcan we allow before we don't
(29:29):
feel safe or it doesn't feellike it's okay.
I feel like it's a bigcommercial for Lisa, but I love
her.
She's like I've learned so muchabout the nervous system and
plate therapy from her and thenjust studying, like Dr Siegel,
reading Alan Shor's books andyou know Porges' Polyvagal
Theory and all of these, just DrPerry's looking at it all, from
(29:53):
piecing together what seems toalign with how I show up, and it
works.
You see, people heal from bigthings.
Liliana Baylon (30:01):
Yeah, and I think we will end up because I
was like, oh my God, and we cankeep going right, which I hope
that you come back and talk tous, continue talking to us and
to our listeners, jackie.
But I think what we'resuggesting is play is healing.
Yeah, as therapists are comingin into this field, you will be
(30:23):
pressured by systems to be apurist.
Yeah, to focus on checklists,to focus on evidence base, to
focus on, and that's just noise.
It is helpful for you to beaware and that's just noise.
It is helpful for you to beaware, but it's just noise.
The invitation from Jackie, if Icapture this right, is what
(30:44):
we're building is the capacityof awareness, organization,
validation of why thosebehaviors were needed.
Using the analogy of a card,when you hear everything that is
wrong with your car, it'soverwhelming.
Yet when you break it down forme and make me feel sane, I will
pay for all those car fixes,even though I will hate it, but
(31:07):
because I know what's going tocome at the end.
So coming to therapy is exactlythat creating capacity not to
model, not to focus on whateverything is wrong, but to
learn about your child and thewisdom right of the nervous
system in a survival state.
Jackie Flynn (31:27):
Oh that's so good, that's beautiful.
We should put some music behindthat.
That's it in a nutshell.
That makes me a littleemotional because that's big
work.
Maria Diego (31:38):
that's like brain science right there yeah, I
think the other invitation,jackie, that you're offering is
that our humanness is the valueboth for providers, for
supervisors, for clients and forparents, right for everyone
involved.
That our humanness is the valuethat we get to bring and that
we get to offer.
Jackie Flynn (31:59):
Yeah, that's it.
That's it Our humanness.
I love it and I feel it fromy'all Like I feel the warmth and
the connection even through,even though we're in all in
different places.
But, yeah, that I would say,that's at the very core our
humanness.
It's a biological imperative tobe with another human being,
and that's what Dr Porges tellsus and Dr Peter Levine, the
(32:24):
creator of the somaticexperiencing therapy, in the
book Trauma Through a Child'sEyes I think that's the name of
it.
He says the difference betweenwhether a child is traumatized
or not is were they with anothersafe.
I can't remember exactly, butwere they alone or were they
(32:44):
with someone else?
And when we can allow them toexpress and be truly with them,
then we can be that agent ofchange.
I think about what Fred Rogerssaid look for the helpers.
We could be the helpers.
Liliana Baylon (33:01):
Yeah, oh Jackie, what a beautiful way to close
it.
Look for the helpers, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Maria, you want to add?
Maria Diego (33:11):
anything.
I mean, I don't think there'smuch more.
Jackie, Thank you so so much.
I know you're also in the midstof hurricane cleanup, so for
you to take the time to stillmeet with us and to share with
our listeners these little gemsof knowledge, I think is so
(33:31):
wonderful and so kind of you,and I hope you come back.
I think we have more to talkabout.
Jackie Flynn (33:37):
Oh, I feel so honored, and you know this is
called the Heroes Welcome.
You know who some heroes areLiliana and Maria that y'all
doing this, you're making theworld a better place.
Being able to get informationout like this, that's beautiful.
I love that.
It's just such a giving, just away to just help everyone.
(34:01):
That is accessible, doesn'tcost any money.
It's through through um, thepodcast avenues.
It's.
You're making the world abetter place, so I want to thank
you.
Maria Diego (34:10):
To be part of this is a huge honor oh well, thank
you, and, as a hero, thank youfor coming on today.
Liliana Baylon (34:20):
We really appreciate it Until next time
listeners.
Until then, Bye.
Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, marielaCardiego, and I'm joined by my
lovely co-host.
Liliana Baylon (00:11):
That's me, the lovely Liliana Baylon.
That's right, I'm owning itthis morning and we are here
with the fabulous, jackie.
Maria Diego (00:21):
I own it too?
Liliana Baylon (00:22):
We do.
How will you want to introduceyourself for whoever is out
there that they don't know aboutyou, which is kind of hard to
believe?
But how would you want tointroduce yourself for whoever
does not know about you?
Jackie Flynn (00:36):
Well, I'm a human.
I live in Florida, CentralFlorida.
I have two kids and now twodogs.
I really love my family,especially my kids.
I'm here with my daughter todayworking.
So one of my big passions isplay therapy.
(00:58):
So I'm a mental healthcounselor and I'm a play
therapist, and also I loveworking with people that are in
pain, so I'm a trauma therapist.
So I specialize in EMDR therapyas a type of therapy that
really helps people justintegrate their psychological
(01:19):
trauma, like our digestivesystem digest food.
It's pretty amazing how itworks.
It works with kids.
I love nature.
I love reading.
I'm getting better at writing.
I thought I loved writing tillI was writing a book and I was
like this is kind of hard.
So I'm a risk taker and I lovethe sunrise.
(01:41):
I think that's probably themost important things about me
so far and I love the sunrise.
Liliana Baylon (01:44):
I think that's probably the most important
things about me so far.
Love it.
So, for anyone who's up there,if you follow Jackie on social
media, she will post videos ofFlorida with sunrise and they're
so gorgeous.
It's like mindfulness in thatmoment for all of us who follow
you.
Jackie Flynn (02:00):
Oh gosh, that's great to think about.
It's so pretty it's hard not toshare it.
Liliana Baylon (02:06):
And before we start with the topic, for
everyone who's listening there,Jackie got recognized by EMDRIA
this year.
Do you want to tell them youraward?
Jackie Flynn (02:15):
Oh my goodness, I feel so honored and it's
interesting.
I was a little surprisedbecause I feel like people have
helped me so much and I gotrecognized through the MDREA
Advocacy Award for helpingothers, specifically BIPOC
communities, and being able tohelp people get consultation and
training and just have accessto resources and credentialing
(02:41):
that they wouldn't haveotherwise.
So to get that, I was like, ohmy goodness, I literally cried
because it's like the mostspecial thing to have somebody
say those nice things about me.
But it's interesting, peoplehave done that for me so it
really didn't seem like I wasdoing intentionally as much as
it seems like the whole EMDRcommunity has this vibe of where
(03:05):
we just help each other out andI just felt like another one of
the helpers.
So to get that was like wow.
Liliana Baylon (03:14):
You are deserving of, and thank you,
thank you for helping ourcommunity.
So, jackie, what is it thatwe're going to be talking about
this morning.
What is it that we're going tobe talking about this morning?
Jackie Flynn (03:24):
Well, for years I've worked as a play therapist
and I know that play and I knewright from the beginning that's
why I wanted to be a playtherapist.
I knew that play had thiscapacity to heal children that
otherwise wouldn't be able toget the mental health support,
(03:45):
but I never really knew why playwas healing.
I knew what it helped with, butwhy is it helpful?
So I dug into the neuroscienceof it and I found myself saying
the same phrase over and overagain in consultation and
therapy, as a consultation andsupervision Play is the therapy.
Play, I mean.
(04:05):
I think a lot of times,especially before people even go
into the field of mental health, they think, well, play is just
a way to get a child to talk,just to give like help, them to
feel comfortable so they canwork on what they need to work
on.
But in reality it truly is thetherapy, therapy and it works
with all ages, from little bittybaby all the way up until until
(04:31):
you die.
Really, the brain isneuroplastic.
So I'd like to talk about howplay is the therapy when we're
working with kids and families,and even I use it in my couples
work because I think ourtendency and this kind of like
my main foundation.
Our tendency is to think well,I need to do something, I need
(04:53):
to give something, and as ateacher I used to be a teacher
the big thing was I need a goodworksheet or I need something
for them to do, when in reality,it is the shared experience of
play.
This togetherness, this beingauthentic, helps the nervous
system to get on track.
It's how we're wired.
(05:13):
That's what I like, and it's notalways fun, but it's
therapeutic.
Liliana Baylon (05:18):
I love that.
But I love what do you think,Maria?
Because I love where you wentin, which is we the three of us
are registered, play therapistsupervisors right, and we
believe in play.
We truly do.
But you just hit the nail whenyou said I knew that play
therapy had the capacity to heal, but I didn't understood why.
(05:40):
Yeah, it's funny because in ourfield they has been so much
money loving.
Why is it worth?
Is it okay if I say loving,because that's exactly what it
is?
Um, there's a whole book aboutit and all of us have read it
right, the tenets of flighttherapy.
Yet it doesn't make sense.
(06:01):
How do we sell it?
We memorize, yeah, but we don'ttruly understand.
So I love that you went there.
Which is, how do we integrateit so that when we're talking,
we're so passionate about itbecause we understand from the
part of the brain?
Jackie Flynn (06:20):
Yeah, when you said how do we sell it?
That's like where we're reallyat home, because I was like I
don't know how to explain thisto parents.
I just know that it helps.
It helps and that's not enough.
I promise you this is going tohelp.
But why are you playing?
This is a lot of time, a lot ofmoney, they're having some big
(06:42):
behaviors, they're in pain.
They're having some bigbehaviors, they're in pain.
Why are you playing?
I'm like, but it helps, that'snot a good enough answer, like
what's happening?
That, and then when I like it'sreally simple, what's happening
.
I mean simple.
It's complex, but you canexplain it.
And play allows us to experiencesafety and distress at the same
(07:03):
time, so that we can have, wecan have this opportunity, and
y'all are plate therapysupervisors, so I know we're all
like, uh, we're on this big,let the child struggle so that
they can have this opportunityfor success.
And so it's not alwaysnecessarily fun, but it's.
(07:23):
It's pretty amazing how it canwiden that window of tolerance.
It can help people expressthings that otherwise would be
expressible.
It could help us connect withpeople in ways that's otherwise
inaccessible.
Just because it's too raw andsometimes it's too buried.
It could be like you know, somekind of you think of trauma can
(07:48):
happen when we are dissociatedbecause things were just too
much, maybe we just went intothis hyper arousal, then this
equivalent of the emotionalbreaker blew in the nervous
system and shut down to hyperarousal, so it could even be in
dissociative states.
People can have traumapre-verbal, before they even
(08:09):
have that part of the brain thatis developed.
And think about that couldhappen in real early childhood,
that can happen in birth processor it can happen in utero or
this is kind of mind-blowing tothink about before conception,
like in intergenerational trauma.
It can be carried down throughlike painful that gives me like
(08:34):
chills to think about it likepainful generations have endured
so much.
It gets carried down throughthe cells and then the child is
taught from a very early agethat the world is safe or the
world's not safe or whatever theworldview is.
And play lets us access thatwhere words can't even go, and
(08:55):
words are amazing but they limitus and they're very much
influenced by culturaldifferences, much influenced by
cultural differences.
So to have this humility to beable to connect with someone as
a human and not be limited byjust phrases that are meaningful
to some and not to others.
Play gives us all of that andmore.
Maria Diego (09:18):
I love that.
I love that so much.
I think that is one of thethings I tell parents and I tell
supervisees to tell parents isyou know, as an adult, have you
ever had an experience wherewords failed?
You Like you just didn't havethe words to express what was
going on for you.
That's true for kids all of thetime, right, like even their
(09:41):
happy emotions.
They don't fully have theverbiage to fully.
I love that you talk about playbeing the therapy because it's
relational and it's experientialand just in being, rather than
a product.
Right, like I know, like youknow, referring back to your
(10:02):
teacher years, I know, comingout of early grad programs,
right, it's like here's aworksheet, here's the goal,
here's the thing we're going todo so that you get better the
goal.
Liliana Baylon (10:16):
Here's the thing we're going to do so that you
get better.
Now we're talking about right,the system.
I I also love that, by the way,maria, when jackie was talking
about it feels like I need to dosomething.
Well, that's the system.
Telling a mental healththerapist by evidence, by right,
when you send in our language,by the models that we choose, is
(10:36):
you have to show me.
Are we stuck?
Are we at the beginning?
Are we advancing?
How do you know?
So there's this cheat that youhave to follow or you have to
provide in order for me to track, because in that system we're
working on the medical modelthat tells us what to do and how
(10:57):
to do it, and the limit onsessions that we can do right,
so I need to do something comesfrom a very colonized mentality
in regards to how are you goingto show me right?
Jackie Flynn (11:12):
Yeah, and I I think too, like from a client's
perspective.
I mean all that documentationis not my favorite, but from a
client's perspective you canfeel if somebody's like truly
with you.
I love marshall lyles.
Y'all know him.
(11:33):
For anyone listening thathasn't heard of Marshall Lyles,
he's one of the best humans thatever, ever like, was born.
But one of his things I learnedfrom him is like don't go into
it with agenda, like I need thisand this and this to happen,
and don't gauge our value andour effectiveness as a therapist
(11:55):
based on somebody's healing,because people heal in their own
time.
So me to come in to like you'regoing to not be anxious in
three weeks from now and you'regoing to sleep through the night
in four weeks from now and yourare going to tell me that
you're 40% more relaxed duringdinner time.
(12:16):
It just doesn't make sense.
It takes the humanity out of itand I understand the need for
tracking, data and stuff, but itreally doesn't necessarily jive
with humanity and what theyneed is another human that's
authentic.
I know we have this commonadmiration for Lisa Dion's work
(12:40):
in synergetic play therapy andone thing, and I think I learned
so much about life from her,not even necessarily just about
play therapy.
But one thing that I reallytook away is is authenticity.
We show up as humans and I knowbefore we got on this recording
lilliana, you mentioned aboutthat like bringing uh, coming
(13:02):
into therapy as a blank spacejust isn't a reality.
That like takes away ourhumanity.
If that was the case, thenrobots could do this therapy
right and they and they'retrying, but they're not great at
it.
They need somebody that couldshare their nervous systems with
them and also share theknowledge and the felt sense of
(13:25):
this is hard and I see what'shappening here and I could feel
you and breathe through it.
It's like a big deal.
Maria Diego (13:33):
It's the therapy Absolutely, and I love that too.
Right, you both, in expressivetherapies, you know whether
that's art and sand tray and inplay, right, it removes the
agenda when we are able to belike this is my space, you can
do what you need to in thisspace and I'm going to be here
with you in it.
Right, so we can chuck theagenda, which you know insurance
(13:57):
companies don't love, themedical model doesn't love,
parents don't love, Schoolsystems don't love.
But we know that's what works,yeah, right.
We can talk to Johnny about hisanger outbursts for an hour
every week.
Liliana Baylon (14:10):
That's not going to get us where you want us to
be this is where, for all of you, who is the new cohort coming
out and you're like what do youmean?
I'm talking to johnny aboutanger and he still is getting
angry like I don't understand.
We talk about it for twosessions.
How come johnny is notimproving?
And when we're smiling assupervisors?
(14:33):
And when we're smiling assupervisors, we're smiling
because we remember the failedsense of that frustration of not
knowing how to help our clients, when in reality, our job as
mental health therapist hasnever been to fix, because that
implies there's something wrongwith you.
Yeah, as mental healththerapists, how can I be with
(14:54):
you so that I can show youdifferent ways and you get to
pick?
Your nervous system gets topick what is the best way for
you.
Jackie Flynn (15:07):
I love that and rolling back the years like
we've been there.
We've been there.
That's a scary place and it's areality that a workbook feels
like a lifeline it's like I'mwith this, 14 year old and I am
so nervous I have all theseworksheets just right here for
me but in reality I mean we allstart somewhere and that and
(15:30):
it's not even I love.
I actually love like um work, Imake workbooks like I love um
directive pieces, but that hasto come after the relational
safety.
So from like a nervous systemor brain perspective you really
connect right hemisphere toright hemisphere and you help to
(15:53):
explore and add safety, exploreall the pain, allow that
expression to happen and thentogether you like cross this
bridge of the corpus callosum,like holding hands, and then you
go into the left hemispherewhich for kids is not even fully
developed until mid to latetwenties.
So we don't want to rely toomuch on that.
But once the safety is thereand once expression's there,
(16:17):
then they have more access tothe higher level thinking part
of their brains and then theycan get the information.
If we start off with that, thenwe're going to fall short and
maybe even make therapy notaccessible for them.
If they have a bad experience,they may have a bad taste in the
mouth for therapy forever andtherapy is pretty cool.
(16:38):
It can change lives.
Maria Diego (16:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I think one of the things thatyou're talking about I put it as
play therapists.
One of our first jobs with ourclients is to make sure that
we're known as not just anotheradult in their life.
We are a different type ofadult in their life, right,
because we don't rely on heavyverbiage we don't.
(17:00):
We're not punitive we're not,you know.
We're not a punishment, youknow, although parents like to
be like, you know, you're goingto go see Miss Maria because you
got in trouble this week, right?
So part of our that buildingsafety, though, is proving that
we're a different type of anadult in their life, and that's
hard for everyone to trust, for,you know, initially it's hard
(17:22):
for kids to trust, it's hard forthe adults in the room to trust
, but I think that that speaksto that relational piece, and
that sense of safety is becausewe behave differently as play
therapists.
Jackie Flynn (17:35):
Oh, it's so good.
I never thought about thatbefore, about we're showing up
differently than what they'reused to and change is a cue of
danger.
So we need to add lots ofopportunity for safety, but
being able to be different.
Then we can allow for thosestories to unfold, we can allow
(17:55):
them to say the things, do thethings that they need to do to
process, to integrate thiswithout shutting it down,
because I do show up verydifferent as a therapist than I
do as a parent.
I never thought about, like I'm, I'm gonna start explaining it,
like because that normalizesfor parents, be like I can't do
(18:19):
that.
That's, that's where we come in, that's why we're here.
Liliana Baylon (18:23):
It's the normalization for parents, right
, when parents come in and thenshare with us.
I tend to normalize look, I amper se, the fun person person
because I am allowing your childto come and explore and be and
there's no judgment in regardsto you have to clean up.
You have to do it this waybecause I'm attuning to what is
it that is showing up in theroom and what is it that needs
(18:45):
to be processed.
And you got the harder jobbecause I only get your child
maybe for one hour a week, ifright.
So it's just a snapshot of whatyou get to experience every day
and society has differentexpectations for you.
Society is telling you yourchild is a representation of you
(19:05):
, so therefore your child has togo through all these checklists
.
That's a lot of projectionsonto you that they're not fair
and they're not realistic.
Therefore, society is settingyou up to fail, to never be
worthy of, and the person that Iknow that is showing up for
here bringing your child totherapy, is worthy of love and
(19:26):
empathy.
Jackie Flynn (19:27):
Oh, that's beautiful because it's
parenting's heart.
Liliana Baylon (19:32):
That's beautiful because it's parenting's heart.
Yes, For all of us.
Our text, by the way, Jackie'sbeen like my child, my child
help me, Because we need eachother also to normalize those
parts that we don't get to talkabout as therapists or the
parents fantasize.
They create this fantasy thatwe are the perfect parents.
(19:54):
Yes, I am so far removed fromthat.
Maria Diego (19:59):
Trust.
When my kids are old enough andlistening to this podcast, they
will attest and they willcomment that is not fact, I have
older children Like Jackie.
Liliana Baylon (20:11):
So my children are 26 and 21.
And what they say about me isnot kind.
And then I start laughing.
I'm like, yeah, sounds aboutright.
Jackie Flynn (20:23):
It's humbling.
I remember, like years ago,that I even have an experience
in the grocery store and thenseeing this is when I was a
teacher seeing one of my theparents at the school and I was
like, uh-oh, we need to pull ittogether, let's turn around.
(20:45):
And there was this almost likeand I think this really speaks
to how it is before we normalizethe humanity in it that, like,
we're people too, but that'swhat makes us effective that's
what makes it so good yeah, yeah, we're flawed, we have.
We have imperfections andcelebrate those instead of
(21:08):
squishing them out.
But it is when somebody seesyou in the um, in the grocery
store and it's like oh, there'smrs jones, oh, we were just in a
meeting talking about how tohelp her kid not do the same
thing that I'm struggling withright at this very moment I know
all of you.
Liliana Baylon (21:28):
Uh, I was gonna say, but I remember one time in
target I saw, saw a parent.
I was like me too, girl Me.
I was like I have two choices.
I can go into shame what am Imodeling with that?
Or I can go into like, oh yeah,me too you have any ideas in
this moment, because right now,I'm just a parent.
(21:49):
So normalizing it right BecauseI love the conversation that
we're having, which is one playis what is healing for any
individual, jackie.
You're saying not only fromchildhood to when we die, but
it's also the ability to.
Can I model with, can I attunewith you, can I model with, can
(22:13):
I attune with you, can I makesense of for you and can I show
you a different way that wecould co-regulate together while
you're expressing what you needBecause I want to honor that
and I want to model how can youadvocate for your needs and for
the way that you regulate?
I will not project onto you howyou should regulate.
(22:33):
There's many systems doing thatalready.
Jackie Flynn (22:37):
Yeah, yeah, because that leads to inadequacy
.
I'm not good enough and I thinkplay really just embeds that
felt sense of I matter, I'mworthy, I'm good enough.
I'm worth spending time with.
I'm likable.
I'm good enough, I'm worthspending time with.
I'm likable, I'm lovable.
It's a unique experience theway that we play with these
(23:00):
people.
I would even do it with mycouples and adults.
Oh yes.
Maria Diego (23:04):
I love doing play therapy with couples and family
systems.
That's so fun Because it getsit initially, makes especially
like older teens and up rightadults, couples, families.
It makes everyone reallyuncomfortable and I'm like this
is where I get to do the work,right, like you're not going to
be comfortable in here and thatlets me get in.
But, jackie, you know, westarted this conversation too
(23:27):
about talking like how do wetell parents, how do we tell
bigger systems why you know thewhy behind what we do?
How do we?
Because, like we're talkingabout like generational traumas
right, we were talking like evenon the cellular level because
we can't sit there and say inthis 55 minutes I'm holding
(23:49):
space for not only what they'veexperienced in their little
lives but also the generationaltrauma.
My brain has neuro neuronsturned on and so it's actively
creating safety for your kiddo.
We, I am following, I amtracking, I am relaying that
they're important and whatthey're like.
We can't say all this.
Jackie Flynn (24:13):
What did she just?
Maria Diego (24:14):
say how can we share with parents systems in a
way?
Have you found verbiage?
Jackie Flynn (24:23):
Yeah, I think of it as an elevator pitch.
So you know, like elevatortakes a certain amount depending
on what building you're in.
I'm sure it varies.
But imagine we're in, say, a10-story building.
But imagine we're in, say, a10-story building and I hop on
the elevator with someone andthey're telling me about
(24:46):
something that their child isstruggling with and in this
scenario I want to share aboutplate therapy.
I really lean on I mean in somany ways, but I lean on Dr
Siegel's connect and redirect soI take in what they're needing,
or really just connect in whatthey're experiencing, some
empathic Like oh, so you saidlike it's hard to even get your
child up to go to school andthere's some big behavior.
(25:10):
Oh gosh, it does soundfrustrating.
You know what I want to tell youabout a type of therapy that
allows and I listen to whatthey've kind of in this elevator
pitch scenario, whateverthey've tried, and you know they
feel felt, they feel heard, andthen I'll offer it to their
left hemisphere there's thistype of therapy, it's play
(25:33):
therapy and it's a therapy thathelps us go way beyond words.
It helps to recalibrate thenervous system, it widens the
window of tolerance and one bigway that we do that is, allow an
(26:02):
opportunity to express thatbypasses people's limits of what
can and can't be done.
So there's opportunities toexpress in ways that otherwise
wouldn't even be available tothem, and sometimes with kids it
allows us to access what'sinaccessible through words
because of brain development.
And then I slip into many of myclients say that it's like they
can see their child, sometimesfor the first time, because the
(26:22):
behavior gets in the way of lifeand quality of life, because
they're adaptations for survival.
Really there's a function, andI do say it more eloquently than
that in the brand, but it'sthis organic flow of connect.
This is what you're experiencing.
I see you, I feel you, I hearyou.
Hey, let me tell you about thiscool thing that can help, and
(26:46):
this is what it is, and this iswhat some other clients say and
then just allow for theirresponse.
Maria Diego (26:54):
I love that Because it's the same path, right?
It's the same process that wedo with the clients in our room
(27:18):
dimension.
Jackie Flynn (27:18):
I'm like hold on, let's lift the hood and see
what's going on first, before westart getting all these plans.
That's going to cost high moneyand all these resources.
I know kids aren't cars andit's not that simple, but we
don't want to barrel in with.
Every kid that has troublesleeping through the night needs
intervention.
A, b and C.
They need some human connection.
They need safety added and ahuman to just really
(27:39):
conceptualize their case with asmuch of a clear clinical
picture, including interactivity, where they can feel in their
nervous system.
We can kind of feel what it'slike to be that kid.
Lisa Dion says and this is whenI asked her a question one time
about like Dion says and this iswhen I asked her a question one
(28:00):
time about like a lot of timeswe work with adopted adoptees
and we don't have history and itcan seem really difficult to
work with someone and you don'tknow their early childhood
history.
And she's like in all actuality, in play therapy, specifically
synergetic play therapy, is whatshe's created.
That we love is amazing.
You, the child hands you theworld like.
(28:21):
You can feel what it's like tobe them and that informs you
where to go next.
So I think important to ourfield is to continuously just
keep on learning, explore andconnect with those and inspire
you.
And it's not necessarily thatone therapy type of the many
types of play therapy, not onethat's better than another.
(28:43):
You align with what's authenticto you and then you can show up
authentically.
So some therapists are moreprescriptive in nature and some
are very non-directive.
I consider myself a littletowards non-directive but not a
purist.
So I think that piece of justbeing able to truly be aware
(29:06):
that we're humans and we havevalue just because we can show
up in a very, say, unconditional, positive regard is one of the
terms we learn in grad school.
It's like they can be who theyare to a certain limit.
Another thing Lisa Dion teachesis boundaries are really about
the therapist, about how muchcan we allow before we don't
(29:29):
feel safe or it doesn't feellike it's okay.
I feel like it's a bigcommercial for Lisa, but I love
her.
She's like I've learned so muchabout the nervous system and
plate therapy from her and thenjust studying, like Dr Siegel,
reading Alan Shor's books andyou know Porges' Polyvagal
Theory and all of these, just DrPerry's looking at it all, from
(29:53):
piecing together what seems toalign with how I show up, and it
works.
You see, people heal from bigthings.
Liliana Baylon (30:01):
Yeah, and I think we will end up because I
was like, oh my God, and we cankeep going right, which I hope
that you come back and talk tous, continue talking to us and
to our listeners, jackie.
But I think what we'resuggesting is play is healing.
Yeah, as therapists are comingin into this field, you will be
(30:23):
pressured by systems to be apurist.
Yeah, to focus on checklists,to focus on evidence base, to
focus on, and that's just noise.
It is helpful for you to beaware and that's just noise.
It is helpful for you to beaware, but it's just noise.
The invitation from Jackie, if Icapture this right, is what
(30:44):
we're building is the capacityof awareness, organization,
validation of why thosebehaviors were needed.
Using the analogy of a card,when you hear everything that is
wrong with your car, it'soverwhelming.
Yet when you break it down forme and make me feel sane, I will
pay for all those car fixes,even though I will hate it, but
(31:07):
because I know what's going tocome at the end.
So coming to therapy is exactlythat creating capacity not to
model, not to focus on whateverything is wrong, but to
learn about your child and thewisdom right of the nervous
system in a survival state.
Jackie Flynn (31:27):
Oh that's so good, that's beautiful.
We should put some music behindthat.
That's it in a nutshell.
That makes me a littleemotional because that's big
work.
Maria Diego (31:38):
that's like brain science right there yeah, I
think the other invitation,jackie, that you're offering is
that our humanness is the valueboth for providers, for
supervisors, for clients and forparents, right for everyone
involved.
That our humanness is the valuethat we get to bring and that
we get to offer.
Jackie Flynn (31:59):
Yeah, that's it.
That's it Our humanness.
I love it and I feel it fromy'all Like I feel the warmth and
the connection even through,even though we're in all in
different places.
But, yeah, that I would say,that's at the very core our
humanness.
It's a biological imperative tobe with another human being,
and that's what Dr Porges tellsus and Dr Peter Levine, the
(32:24):
creator of the somaticexperiencing therapy, in the
book Trauma Through a Child'sEyes I think that's the name of
it.
He says the difference betweenwhether a child is traumatized
or not is were they with anothersafe.
I can't remember exactly, butwere they alone or were they
(32:44):
with someone else?
And when we can allow them toexpress and be truly with them,
then we can be that agent ofchange.
I think about what Fred Rogerssaid look for the helpers.
We could be the helpers.
Liliana Baylon (33:01):
Yeah, oh Jackie, what a beautiful way to close
it.
Look for the helpers, thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Maria, you want to add?
Maria Diego (33:11):
anything.
I mean, I don't think there'smuch more.
Jackie, Thank you so so much.
I know you're also in the midstof hurricane cleanup, so for
you to take the time to stillmeet with us and to share with
our listeners these little gemsof knowledge, I think is so
(33:31):
wonderful and so kind of you,and I hope you come back.
I think we have more to talkabout.
Jackie Flynn (33:37):
Oh, I feel so honored, and you know this is
called the Heroes Welcome.
You know who some heroes areLiliana and Maria that y'all
doing this, you're making theworld a better place.
Being able to get informationout like this, that's beautiful.
I love that.
It's just such a giving, just away to just help everyone.
(34:01):
That is accessible, doesn'tcost any money.
It's through through um, thepodcast avenues.
It's.
You're making the world abetter place, so I want to thank
you.
Maria Diego (34:10):
To be part of this is a huge honor oh well, thank
you, and, as a hero, thank youfor coming on today.
Liliana Baylon (34:20):
We really appreciate it Until next time
listeners.
Until then, Bye.
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