May 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Unlock the secrets of intergenerational trauma with Milagros "Mili" Sarmiento Shoemaker, a distinguished therapist who bridges cultures from Argentina to the United States. Have you ever wondered how the experiences of your ancestors shape your life today? This episode promises insights into understanding trauma as a survival mechanism that transcends generations, using historical contexts, like wars and migrations, to illustrate the invisible threads connecting us to our past.
Our conversation with Mili dives deep into the layers of generational healing, where we explore the unique privilege and responsibility our generation holds in addressing and integrating the unresolved issues of our ancestors. By embracing the complex dynamics between victims and perpetrators in our family histories, we underscore the importance of empathy and grace in understanding where we come from. This episode sheds light on how acknowledging these inherited patterns paves the way for future generations to face new challenges unencumbered by the weight of the past.
We conclude with an exploration of how therapists can harness the power of communication and resource-sharing to unravel their clients' intergenerational trauma. Mili shares poignant examples that highlight the significant impact of incorporating family systems into therapeutic practices. Not only do we discuss how these insights can prevent children from being unfairly pathologized, but we also reflect on the mutual growth experienced by both therapists and clients. Join us in this enlightening journey that promises to break the cycle of unspoken trauma and foster a deeper understanding of our shared human experience.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome listeners back for another episode of a
Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, MariaLaquera-Diego, and I'm joined
today by my co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's me, Liliana Bailon, and we are here with
Mili Mili, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Well, my name is Mili , but really my name is Milagros
, but I go by Mili because it'smuch easier.
Sarmiento is my last name andthen I also use my husband's
name, so it's SarmientoShoemaker, and that says a lot
about me.
I am an Argentine that lives inthe US.
I'm a therapist, I'm an LPC inthe state of Colorado.
(00:41):
I am a registered play therapysupervisor.
I started seeing kids when Istarted my career and now I'm
seeing many families and adults,not many kids, and I don't know
.
I don't know.
That's a little bit about me.
I guess you're going to have asense of who I am when we start
to have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So for everyone who's out there, and you're like wait
, what?
So Millie's an outstanding.
And I tell her because that'show I met her, that's how I know
her, but Millie and I are fromLatin America, I'm from Mexico,
she's from Argentina, and that'show we started, just knowing
each other and then asking whatdo you think about this concept
or what do you think about this?
(01:23):
And that's how we created aconnection.
But it was through SynergeticPlay Therapy where we met.
Yep, so the three of us haveLisa Dion in common.
Yes, so, millie, what is itthat we're going to be talking
about today?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So today we're going to talk about intergenerational
trauma, which I feel that is ahot topic, like I feel that is
something that nowadays a lot ofpeople like bring it up.
So we're going to talk aboutintergenerational trauma and the
patterns that at least I seeand this is a conversation that
I would love to have with thetwo of you the patterns that we
see in the clinical space, sohow intergenerational that we
(02:05):
see in the clinical space, sohow intergenerational trauma
shows up in the clinical spaceand even in today's society.
But we can even start justtalking about, like, what we see
as therapists and, of course,define what the heck
intergenerational trauma is.
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you.
I was just thinking even beforewe started recording, when you
said your little girls werewatching Encanto, and I was like
that is the perfect example ofintergenerational trauma.
But give us an example of whatdo you see in your practice.
How is it showing up with thefamilies that you're serving?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So let's start by defining what is
intergenerational trauma, and wecannot define intergenerational
trauma without defining firstwhat the heck is trauma, right?
So let's just come out with avery simple description of what
trauma is.
Trauma is any experience rightthat for the person that is
(03:00):
experiencing the experience istoo much, too fast, right?
So too much is coming at you,and when you're going through a
traumatic experience or an event, your nervous system, your
brain, your body needs toexclude information out and
(03:21):
hyper-focus onto something inorder to make it through, in
order to survive.
So trauma is, in my opinion, isthe perfect survival mechanism
that we developed as humanity inorder to survive generation
from generation.
So the trauma is not so muchthe event itself, but more so
(03:42):
how that person, the eventitself, but more so how that
person internalized thatexperience and what that person
needed, unconsciously, to liveout of the experience in order
to make it through.
Would you all agree that thatis trauma?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I love that definition.
Okay, so then, if we talk aboutintergenerational trauma.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
It means that.
So then, if we talk aboutintergenerational trauma, it
means that intergenerationaltrauma is imagine from our past
generations.
Right, our ancestors, they alsoexperienced trauma.
I once heard, I once watchedthis video that I think
describes it beautifully.
So I am in my 40s, liliana, youare in your what 40s.
(04:29):
Maria, you are in your what 40s?
Or, maria, you are in your 40s.
Okay, so we're gonna, we'regonna, we're gonna.
The three of us agree that ourgreat-grandparents, so our
bisabuelos, they depend.
I'm my parent.
My great-grandparents were fromSpain, from Bolivia, yours from
Mexico.
Right, I don't know, maria,where you're from, but we can.
I don't know, maria, whereyou're from, but we can agree
that that generation were eitherin war, fighting war, or they
(04:52):
were migrating into newterritories because of war.
So all that generation wasabout war, surviving guerra.
When I pronounce it in English,it doesn't come out as good,
but guerra, right, they werelike fighting war.
So those are our greatgrandparents, and you can
imagine that that generationleft a lot of information out.
(05:13):
They needed to excludeinformation in order to make it
through.
That generation didn't reallyask themselves oh, what do I
feel like eating today?
Oh, what do I feel like eatingtoday?
Oh, what do I feel likelistening today?
I'm gonna listen to classicmusic right now.
They were just fighting fortheir lives.
Okay, then our grandparentsgeneration came in and our
(05:37):
grandparents, uh, they werestill worse, but not as many,
and they dedicated their energyand their lives to make a living
.
Right, they were making aliving.
Many of our grandparents wereeither like factory workers
right, factory workers or theywere just doing different types
(06:01):
of professions not professionslike farming, different types of
professions likenon-professions, farming,
different types of works thattoday we have more options, but
our grandparents, their goal ortheir purpose in life was to
make a living.
And then our parents came inand I don't know your parents'
story, but we can say that ourparents' generation.
(06:24):
They were able to either choosea career or choose a profession
, maybe different from whattheir parents were able to, to
choose right.
And then here we come, and thenour generation comes right.
Which is interesting that in ourgeneration there is so many
(06:44):
options for so many things,right, think about, like, all
the options that we have fortherapy.
We have so many podcasts thattalk about mental health you
name it right.
We have so many.
Still, accessibility is anissue, right?
It's not that everyone hasaccess to mental health services
, but we have so many servicesfor mental health need, right?
(07:07):
So our generation is in charge,or our purpose is to integrate
it all, so to fill what theyneeded.
So what our ancestors needed toexclude in order to survive,
(07:29):
needed to exclude in order tosurvive in today, today's
generation, our generation, weare.
It's not random why, at first,we're having this conversation.
There are so many, uh, placesin the world where, like this is
a thing like integrating andaddressing intergenerational
trauma, and it is because ofthat, because our you know those
that came before us.
They couldn't, they needed toput their attention, their focus
on someone, something else.
(07:50):
Right Now, we have theprivilege to be able to talk
about these, to be able to go totherapy, to be able to talk
about things that we didn'tbefore.
Let's think about.
In today's society, there's somany things that we talk about
that we didn't talk about then.
For example, sexual abuse.
(08:11):
Sexual abuse when I was a kid,that wasn't a thing, not that it
didn't happen, we just didn'ttalk about it.
Or sexuality in general.
We didn't talk about genderidentity.
We didn't talk about that.
We didn't talk about even war.
We didn't talk about thosecountries that were in war.
(08:34):
At least, that was myexperience.
Growing up.
I lived in a bubble where wedidn't talk about many things.
All of those things were stillhappening.
In Argentina, for example, wedidn't talk about abortion.
Abortion is not even legal inArgentina.
And today, of course, there isa big movement that is fighting
(08:56):
these two movements one thatfights for abortion and one that
fights against abortion.
So what I'm trying to say isthat even in today's society,
we're giving voice to many ofthese symptoms, to many of these
challenges that existed before,like domestic violence.
Domestic violence has been athing since we are a species.
(09:18):
We have so many nonprofits, somany organizations that protect
victims or that helpperpetrators to, you know, like
(09:39):
work through their stuff so theycan change right how they
relate with people, but anyway.
So what I'm trying to say withthis is that our generation is a
generation that is not incharge.
Generation is a generation thatis not in charge.
I don't want to say that we arein charge, but we have the
privilege to connect with all ofthat, to make space for it and
to integrate it, so our kidsdon't have to continue to
re-experience, repeat patternsthat we can talk about.
You know we can talk about thatnow if you want to, like how
(10:00):
intergenerational trauma showsup in general.
What like now we're talkingabout, like from a intellectual
perspective, right Like thatprevious generation didn't
integrate is getting repeated intoday's reality.
And then, if you want, we cantalk about like what we're
seeing, that we're making senseof this information.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I love this.
This is so helpful, thisframework and this lens, because
I think the other thing we'vebeen we've said on a couple of
other interviews is like thisstuff is not new, right, these
things that we are dealing with,these symptoms that we are
seeing, these traumas that weare processing, these are not
new experiences for us as aspecies, or even as a country
(10:46):
species, or even as a country.
But why like I get that all thetime, you know well why are we
talking about it now?
Why is this such a big deal now?
Why and partly, we didn't havethe language right you were
talking about, like sexualityand even child abuse or spousal
abuse, like we didn't have thelanguage back then.
And I think I really love thisbecause it wasn't, that wasn't
the most important thing goingon for that generation at the
time.
So it was dropped Right.
(11:08):
And I think that's helpful too,to have some grace and
understanding for pastgenerations, because, I mean,
we're recording this the nightbefore the election season and I
know you know things areheightened right now.
But one of the things thatkeeps coming up, at least in our
practice, is why is this mymess to clean up?
I didn't, you know, like thenewer generations are like why
(11:31):
is it on us to parent my parentswho are of different beliefs,
or having to explain mentalhealth to my parents or to older
generations when they just wantto brush it under the rug?
Still, and it's really helpfulto be able to have some grace
and go, because it wasn'timportant to them.
They had bigger things on theirplate and we have the privilege
(11:52):
now to be in a safer space, tobe able to fight some of these
battles and to look at some ofthese things and to do some of
this integration in this work.
I love that, so I think.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Judy's sorry, go ahead.
So, for everyone who's out there, just pause, because the
conversation is going really,really fast and this is huge,
not just because where we are inthis moment and what may happen
this week, but I have never andI love that you said it, maria
which is we didn't have thelanguage.
Millie, what you said and I,like highlighted it which is our
(12:26):
generation purpose is tointegrate to, is to process and
integrate, because pastgenerations they didn't have the
privilege and I love the wordthat you're using in regards to
what was happening when theywere growing up that they needed
to exclude a lot of things justto survive.
(12:47):
We, this generation, especiallythe three of us who are here,
who are in our 40s, we'retalking about, we have the
privilege to be able to process,because we're saying we don't
want our children to continuerepeating these patterns and if
we can help them to start tohave a different issue, we're
(13:09):
going to call it an issue, adifferent issue that they get to
take on and to work on, becausethey're not dealing with, you
know, the stuff that ourancestors were dealing with, if
it was migration, if it wascrime, if it whatever it was,
even the financial burdens thatthey had, like they don't have
(13:29):
to do that.
They're in a different lens, adifferent view.
So again, let us think in, foreveryone who's listening, our
generation purpose is to processand integrate what our
ancestors went through that ishuge and integrate what our
ancestors went through.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That is huge.
That is huge.
And for some of us we come fromfamilies or ancestors that they
were the perpetrators.
They were the ones that killedpeople, many people, right, for
(14:06):
some of us we are part of afamily and it's not from a
family constellation perspective, which is the one philosophy
that I follow in my practice asother philosophies and
approaches but it's not thatmaybe one generation was, let's
say, let's call it a perpetrator, and maybe the generation
before were the victims and thenthe generation before were the
perpetrators.
(14:26):
Is this dance between it's notthat you are the bad ones and
I'm the good one you are theperpetrator and I'm the victim?
Can you own it in yourself?
Can you look back?
Can you look around, like lookand study your family history,
and can you how do I say thiswithout creating lots of tension
(14:49):
but can you be grateful fromwhere you come from?
And being grateful means canyou integrate both the good and
the bad, because it's reallyeasy to write to say I come from
a, I'm just going to makesomething up.
I come from a family where youknow we were victims of the
Holocaust, right, and of coursethat has.
(15:10):
We know the pain, that of theHolocaust right, and of course
that has.
We know the pain that thatsystem carries and all of that
right.
I can totally love that and begrateful for my ancestors, but
how challenging at least for me,mili would it be to own and to
be grateful for my Nazis.
So let's say that my family'smembers, my ancestors, were
(15:31):
Nazis, right, and to know that Icome from them and to honor
them no, not honor what they did, that is different.
It's not that we are honoringcrime, that is not the message.
But the message is not random,at least from this perspective,
the family that you were born inand can you again own and be
(15:53):
grateful for those that camebefore you, that it wasn't easy
for them and it doesn't meanthat we are again honoring their
crimes.
We're just saying yes, becausewhat you were saying, maria,
about many people saying why dowe have to clean up?
You know, this is not our mess.
It's, let's say, our parents'mess or like someone else's mess
(16:15):
.
Well, actually it's humanity'smess and as long as you're a
human, it impacts you and you'reresponsible for it.
At least I can speak for myselfand that's how I view it.
Whatever is going on in myworld today that affects my life
, that affects my kids, thataffects my community.
I'm a part of it.
So let's study and let's getcurious about our ancestors.
(16:39):
And can we be one with them?
Because this is not what we'redoing.
We are separating and we'resaying we don't belong or we
don't.
You know, we're not alike andwe don't want to be like them,
but part of us continues torepeat what we did because we
are an extension of them.
So it's just about like I don'tknow.
(17:01):
In my opinion, it's curiosity,becoming curious of your roots.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Think about everyone who's listening.
So think about everyone who'slistening.
Think about when a family comesin and they say and you ask
questions.
Part of your intake is you'reworking with a child and you
realize that that parent wasphysically abused, because that
generation was dealing not onlywith a different set of rules in
regards to parenting, butwhatever they were going through
(17:26):
.
And then now the parent is likeI don't want my child to go
through this, that's why we'rehere in therapy.
And then when they'redysregulated, they hit.
So this is repeating a patternwhere we can see ourselves as
villains.
I'm going to use Maria's wordright now for not being able to
stop myself.
But what is the wisdom inhumanizing my parents for what I
(17:51):
went through, trying tointegrate what I learned, trying
to integrate what my familywent through and be able to
embrace the good and the bad andwhy we tend to repeat what we
repeat.
And then what is it that nolonger is serving us and what is
it that we can change it?
So the conversation is learning, so that we can take
(18:14):
accountability, we can processand we can change.
It's not that we're changingour DNA, but it is that we're
changing family patterns, and Ithink that's what you're
suggesting, millie, with thisdiscussion.
Which is, what is it theEuropeans are doing when they
say especially when youmentioned the Holocaust, I was
thinking like they're not sayingthis didn't happen.
(18:34):
Germany is not saying thisdidn't happen.
Germany is saying let's learnfrom it so that we don't repeat
these aspects of our historyanymore.
They're not rejecting it,they're not in denial it didn't
happen, let's not talk about it.
They're saying this is what wedid, this is what we were going
(18:55):
through, and let's make surethat we don't repeat it.
That's the integration in theprocess, that's the process and
the integration per se, wouldyou say, mili, am I getting it?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I was just thinking about.
I've been reading a book that isa little bit controversy about.
You know this topic.
It talks about perpetrators andvictims and what he says, this
guy, what he says is that he'scurious about you know, like,
whenever you talk about victimsright, let's say, you go and you
(19:33):
may see for example, in mycountry we had a big war in 1982
in argentina and you go to aspecific place and you see all
the names of all the soldiersthat died in that war, but you
don't see all the names of allthe perpetrators, all the let's
quote unquote like bad people.
So what this guy says in thisbook is that about the Holocaust
and the you know, what happenedwith the Nazis and the Jewish
(19:55):
community is that we see a lotof Jewish names on these walls
but we never see thepreparator's name.
And in order for us tointegrate this, we need to see
both sides, not just the victims.
We need to see their names,because seeing and reading their
names is a way of them beingresponsible for what they did,
(20:16):
and that matters.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, I agree, I think it also brings in an
opportunity for healing forthose right, because if there is
no name, if there is no image,if there is no acknowledgement
of the other people right, right, then it's very easy then to
slip into like well, did itreally happen?
Was it really that bad, likeyou know, and that those
messages can get perpetuated inthat way.
(20:39):
So I think I think that's areally interesting concept
because we are quick to you know, and history is written by the
survivors and the successors.
But I think it's also reallyinteresting to just kind of note
, like what are we doing when weare distancing or eliminating
the other side, because itclearly has not been serving us
(21:02):
or we wouldn't be having thisconversation, we wouldn't be in
this position for our generationand future generations?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
That's right, I have two thingsin mind.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah, I'm thinking also of time, so we can take
this conversation into.
You know, what are we?
What we're seeing in ourpractice?
We're going to talk about whatis going on in the U?
S, like from the U?
S history, because we alsorepeat patterns here, right?
Not just you know, like we'retalking about what happened,
right?
(21:35):
Of course, the Nazis and theJewish community impacted the
whole world, but there's alsosome like social issues in the
US that continue to repeat thatwe tiptoe around.
So we're going to talk aboutlike something more uh, I don't
know less, I don't know what'sthe word.
We're going to talk about theclinical space or we're going to
(21:57):
talk about what is going on intoday's I think that whatever we
decide right, they're gonna beum, fear-based because everyone
tries to like.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That doesn't happen, even in our field, when, even
when you mention, likegenerationally, families tend to
have issues with sexual abuse,with racism, with a dv, with,
like all these things, bullying,with like all these things that
bring cases to our clinicalpractice, we tend to say, like,
(22:28):
not this part, we're going tofocus on this part.
So even in that, we're repeatinghistorically what we have done.
So if we zoom out from anintergenerational trauma, what
we're saying is that sometimeswe are even excluding
information because we're notready to process into interests
(22:49):
and we tend to super focus onone area, because that's the
capacity that we have, eitherbecause we're not aware, because
we don't want to process andwe're not ready to integrate.
Yeah, and in that, in our field, we'll continue to have the
same patterns, right, even if wezoom out, because we can say
(23:10):
society, us, we can talk family,system, but we can also say in
our field we also have thisissue because we're in denial,
because we're not ready toprocess, we're not ready to
integrate, to pass the baton tothe new cohort so that they can
have a different perspective andthey can have a different fight
(23:32):
per se.
You see this enough that wejust did yes.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Think about this In the state of Colorado.
This is how we exclude.
In my opinion, in the state ofColorado, you need to be at
least right, like when you getto the age of 12, you don't need
parent consent to do therapy.
So what are we doing astherapists?
We are saying to the parents Ipersonally, if I work with a
(24:02):
12-year-old, I work with theparents, but that's how I work,
right?
But from a systemic perspective, the system is saying we don't
need the parents, we're going toput them here aside, we're just
going to work with the kid.
That is a way of excluding, notworking with a client
(24:24):
systemically, which, in myopinion, that's the way to do it
in order to see change.
Right, but that's also themessage that kids get from out
there, right, yeah, you don'tneed your parents for consent.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Come and see me, so let's bring it to the system in
our field being played there,which he says let me teach you
how to work with the child, butnot with the system.
Yeah, we're doing cut off.
Yes, that's right, therapist,we're naming it.
The three of us are naming ithave to work with the system.
Yes, you have to work with thesystem to help help the client
(25:00):
in front of you, and that mayinclude having family sessions
with the purpose to help theclient with whatever the issue
is.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
And having sessions.
I know that not for all playtherapies it's comfortable to
have the parents in the room.
So it's something that sometherapies may need to, just if
they want to work moresystematically to develop right,
like to learn how to be morecomfortable with parents.
But just to start, like, whenyou conceptualize, let's say, an
issue, a symptom, can you startto conceptualize it from a
(25:32):
systemic perspective?
So, for example, I want toshare an example, if that's okay
.
So there is this person in thefamily conservation field.
His name is Stefan Hausner andhe says that parents exclude
their kids, feel attracted to.
(25:53):
I'm going to give you anexample.
I'm going to give you anexample.
I once was doing an intake witha family.
They wanted their six-year-oldto come to therapy because she
was having some suicide ideation, and because I work from this
(26:18):
perspective in my intake, myfirst question was parents were
in the in the intake and I askedthem directly have you ever,
the two of you, thought aboutkilling yourself?
Have you had thoughts about?
And mom's starting to cry?
Yeah, when I was 18, I wentthrough a really hard time, but
we never talk about it.
Okay, I explained this conceptto them.
(26:39):
Your kid is bringing intotoday's life aspects of your
past that haven't been fullyintegrated yet.
Let's do a few play therapysessions, but just know that my
(26:59):
work is with the two of you, aslong as you can make space for
this to talk about suicide, totalk about depression, to tell
them not necessarily tell themwhat happened to you, maybe now,
but maybe in a few years.
So we were able to identify inthat first intake issue and what
my mom shared was like, and mymom had history of depression
(27:23):
and I think someone in thesystem committed suicide.
So, from a family conservationperspective, how do we bring
light into that?
By bringing and talking aboutthat family member that
committed suicide.
So, from a family conservationperspective, those that are
excluded in the system, or theexperiences that are excluded in
(27:43):
the system, influence the onesthat are alive, the ones that
are in today's reality.
So, from this perspective, it'sabout connecting the dots right
, like the same with sexualabuse.
Sexual abuse is systemic.
It never happens as an not innever.
You never know, right Like, Icannot say it never, but it's
(28:05):
not usually an isolated event.
So the same thing with sexualabuse.
When I have an intake with aparents that are, you know
bringing a kid that has beensexually abused.
I ask directly have you beensexually abused as a kid?
And it's usually either mom ordad that starts to cry and says,
yes, that was my experiencegrowing up, but I never told
(28:25):
anyone.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
First of all, mom, if you're listening, I just want
you to know.
This is why, whatever you leftout, I picked it up and even as
you said it right, and we can bejoking and I was like, oh, so
that's why this child pickedthis, like got it.
So even in that, we can haveeasily make sense of three
generations, right?
I love this example, millie,because a lot of the times,
(28:51):
again, because they feel that weare, especially when we say I
am a play therapist, right?
I think it was the last podcastthat we recorded, maria, where
we said we don't tend to talk toeach other.
If we are LMFT and LPCs, wedon't talk to each other, we
don't share resources.
(29:11):
And then, if you narrow it downof like, oh, we're play
therapists, then we don't sharewith LMFTs, we don't share with
LPCs, like, we just don't share.
And this is information, millie, that I feel like, yes, how do
we talk to each other so that wecan share?
Have you considered, not justas an LPC but as a play
therapist, have you considered,how intergenerational trauma is
(29:34):
showing up and why the need toinclude the system is important,
not only for intake history,but we want to make sense of
make sense of the purpose, right, when you said, whatever the
parents exclude, the child isattracted to man.
I quoted that one right awaybecause I was like this is not
(29:56):
mine.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I stole that, but you can take it I stole that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
But you can take it Like this is gold, because
that's how patterns show up inour offices and we don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And I love that, millie, because your approach
right.
Otherwise, that six-year-oldgirl is now pathologized for
having suicidal ideations.
Um is penned to become theoutcast, the black sheep.
The problem when she is simplythe symptom carrier of past
(30:32):
generations, um, not talkingabout their own experiences,
their own um, you know from fromthe norm, from the healthy
right, and I think it goes backto that.
Like that, it, it's ourgeneration who are like no more,
no more, we're not doing this,we're not going to continue to
pass this down to our kids.
(30:53):
And as a provider, you'regiving a template to other
clinician, or clinicians be ableto say, like you know, if
they're coming in with this, I,I can build up the skills to
clinicians be able to say, likeyou know, if they're coming in
with this, I, I can build up theskills to just be able to ask,
point blank mom, dad, who inyour history, or was it you that
has experienced suicidalideations or completed suicides
(31:14):
in either family side?
But yeah, it needs to be thatsimple, it needs to be that
simple instead.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It needs to be that simple Instead of us tiptoeing.
And it's simple and, of course,like and when you ask the right
question, the person on theother side feels seen, it's not
that they're like feeling Inever with this, I never had a
client that was offended bythose questions.
They were feeling like, okay, Iget to talk about this, for
(31:39):
example, I get to talk aboutthis.
For example, I have a briefexample.
I was doing an intake with a dadfor a six-year-old.
He wanted her to come totherapy because when she was two
, mom died right, and so when Iwas doing the intake, I asked
him so what's going on?
And he said well, at night,every time we go to bed, she
(32:00):
says that she wants to die.
She says that she wants to gowith mom.
So I asked him how much do youtalk about mom?
Now, in our family, we don'ttalk about mom.
We don't talk about death,right, death people.
I said does she have a pictureof mom?
Does she know what mom lookslike?
Not really.
I said okay, homework, print apicture of mom, put it in her
(32:26):
bedroom and let her talk aboutmom and bring mom in today's
reality, tell her stories aboutmom when she was pregnant with
her right, like as simple asthat.
And he was someone that he said, okay, I'm going to, I'm going
to follow you.
He went, he printed in thepicture the next day, he put in
his in her bedroom and she neveragain, ever, said that she
wanted to kill herself.
(32:47):
Never.
It's that simple, it's not thatcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, it's so powerful though.
It's so powerful right, boththe recognizing and the asking,
and then the power that comesfrom just a little bit of
understanding andacknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's huge, that congruency, that attunement,
right Like that understanding of, in order to simplify it for
caretakers, simple exercisesthat they can do at home in
order to make it explicit andstart conversations.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
such a beautiful task , mili that we can all do right.
And going back to us therapists, we also have our patterns
through our clients.
That connects to our ownhistory, so that this is the
next phrase that so our clientssometimes bring light into that
(33:49):
that we exclude.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I have to say that, sorry for interrupting me, but I
have to say, like when LisaDeanne started teaching us that
I was like mm-mm, I'm not readyfor this.
I don't know if you remember,cause sometimes we will sit
close by each other, cause youknow that I, I was like I'm not
ready for this.
I don't know if you remember,because sometimes we will sit
close by each other, because youknow that I talk a lot, but
like when, when she will startlike talking about, you know,
system carrier, what you know,the clients that we're
(34:13):
attracting into our practice,and I was like that cannot be it
.
That cannot be it and it tookme a while.
So, for everyone who'slistening out there, what
Millie's talking about issomething that it took us a
while to integrate in order tomake sense of.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Absolutely, but we hear that all the time, right as
supervisors too.
It's like, well, I don'tunderstand how I ended up with a
caseload full of fill in theblank here and it's lovely to be
able to like, oh I'm I'mwondering what that's reflecting
of your own experiences thatyou yourself have not completely
integrated, or you'recontinuing to actively try to
(34:51):
hide.
Um, sometimes the the universecan get real loud with messages
if we're ignoring them or they,they think your family carried
right, because sometimes it wasnot you.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
They remember-.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
The intergenerational trauma reflects also in your
case.
It's not just what happened toyou directly.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, because I was going to say I remember asking
Lisa, but I haven't gone throughthis and it took me a while
Like, oh, this is not mine yetI'm carrying it, Got it.
But it takes a while because wehave to be able to be open, to
be curious, even askingquestions of family that a lot
(35:35):
of times we don't talk about,not just because they're secrets
, because they're shame orbecause they were not shared
right period.
So, millie, I'm wondering wewere going to put information,
how people to, how othertherapists can contact you,
because I think you're doingamazing trainings and everyone
(35:56):
needs to know about you.
But is what is one thing thatyou want them to know about you
before we say goodbye today, notforever.
Today I'm sure you're comingback.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And my invitation.
I don't know if something thatI want them to know about me,
but my invitation is for for allall the listeners to get
curious, to like to get outsideof the box, like, like this work
.
If you are sitting in yourheart and you are, you know,
connected with your roots andwith who you are, it's so much
(36:29):
more I don't know, it flows,it's much easier.
You won't burn out if you are,you know, working from that
place.
So my invitation is to justopen your heart and really get
curious about where you comefrom and those aspects of your
history that haven't beenintegrated yet.
And integration means it'sanother opportunity to to to let
(36:50):
that experience, to make spacefor it, to be able to be in
relationship with it.
So that's what I want to, how Iwant to end.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Oh, that was beautiful, Maria.
Anything that you want to add?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I love that.
Yeah, I'm going to justpiggyback off of that and
encourage especially playtherapists, who tend to just
prefer working with the child,to welcome in the whole system
and be curious of the entiresystem that that child might be
representing and bringing forthbut is not the only owner of
(37:24):
whatever the complaints orproblem behaviors might be.
Everyone's going to come to thesystem side.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Thank you, millie, for honoring us with your
presence today.
Listeners, please make sure onthe bottom of the podcast you
will have Mila's informationthere.
Contact her, do consultationswith her.
She is an outstanding therapist.
Reach out to her and remembershe's bilingual, so whatever
language you need, like she willbe able to help you here, mila.
(37:56):
Thank you and until next time.
Thank you, edith.
Welcome listeners back for another episode of a
Heroes Welcome podcast.
I'm your co-host, MariaLaquera-Diego, and I'm joined
today by my co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's me, Liliana Bailon, and we are here with
Mili Mili, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Well, my name is Mili , but really my name is Milagros
, but I go by Mili because it'smuch easier.
Sarmiento is my last name andthen I also use my husband's
name, so it's SarmientoShoemaker, and that says a lot
about me.
I am an Argentine that lives inthe US.
I'm a therapist, I'm an LPC inthe state of Colorado.
(00:41):
I am a registered play therapysupervisor.
I started seeing kids when Istarted my career and now I'm
seeing many families and adults,not many kids, and I don't know
.
I don't know.
That's a little bit about me.
I guess you're going to have asense of who I am when we start
to have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
So for everyone who's out there, and you're like wait
, what?
So Millie's an outstanding.
And I tell her because that'show I met her, that's how I know
her, but Millie and I are fromLatin America, I'm from Mexico,
she's from Argentina, and that'show we started, just knowing
each other and then asking whatdo you think about this concept
or what do you think about this?
(01:23):
And that's how we created aconnection.
But it was through SynergeticPlay Therapy where we met.
Yep, so the three of us haveLisa Dion in common.
Yes, so, millie, what is itthat we're going to be talking
about today?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So today we're going to talk about intergenerational
trauma, which I feel that is ahot topic, like I feel that is
something that nowadays a lot ofpeople like bring it up.
So we're going to talk aboutintergenerational trauma and the
patterns that at least I seeand this is a conversation that
I would love to have with thetwo of you the patterns that we
see in the clinical space, sohow intergenerational that we
(02:05):
see in the clinical space, sohow intergenerational trauma
shows up in the clinical spaceand even in today's society.
But we can even start justtalking about, like, what we see
as therapists and, of course,define what the heck
intergenerational trauma is.
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you.
I was just thinking even beforewe started recording, when you
said your little girls werewatching Encanto, and I was like
that is the perfect example ofintergenerational trauma.
But give us an example of whatdo you see in your practice.
How is it showing up with thefamilies that you're serving?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So let's start by defining what is
intergenerational trauma, and wecannot define intergenerational
trauma without defining firstwhat the heck is trauma, right?
So let's just come out with avery simple description of what
trauma is.
Trauma is any experience rightthat for the person that is
(03:00):
experiencing the experience istoo much, too fast, right?
So too much is coming at you,and when you're going through a
traumatic experience or an event, your nervous system, your
brain, your body needs toexclude information out and
(03:21):
hyper-focus onto something inorder to make it through, in
order to survive.
So trauma is, in my opinion, isthe perfect survival mechanism
that we developed as humanity inorder to survive generation
from generation.
So the trauma is not so muchthe event itself, but more so
(03:42):
how that person, the eventitself, but more so how that
person internalized thatexperience and what that person
needed, unconsciously, to liveout of the experience in order
to make it through.
Would you all agree that thatis trauma?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I love that definition.
Okay, so then, if we talk aboutintergenerational trauma.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
It means that.
So then, if we talk aboutintergenerational trauma, it
means that intergenerationaltrauma is imagine from our past
generations.
Right, our ancestors, they alsoexperienced trauma.
I once heard, I once watchedthis video that I think
describes it beautifully.
So I am in my 40s, liliana, youare in your what 40s.
(04:29):
Maria, you are in your what 40s?
Or, maria, you are in your 40s.
Okay, so we're gonna, we'regonna, we're gonna.
The three of us agree that ourgreat-grandparents, so our
bisabuelos, they depend.
I'm my parent.
My great-grandparents were fromSpain, from Bolivia, yours from
Mexico.
Right, I don't know, maria,where you're from, but we can.
I don't know, maria, whereyou're from, but we can agree
that that generation were eitherin war, fighting war, or they
(04:52):
were migrating into newterritories because of war.
So all that generation wasabout war, surviving guerra.
When I pronounce it in English,it doesn't come out as good,
but guerra, right, they werelike fighting war.
So those are our greatgrandparents, and you can
imagine that that generationleft a lot of information out.
(05:13):
They needed to excludeinformation in order to make it
through.
That generation didn't reallyask themselves oh, what do I
feel like eating today?
Oh, what do I feel like eatingtoday?
Oh, what do I feel likelistening today?
I'm gonna listen to classicmusic right now.
They were just fighting fortheir lives.
Okay, then our grandparentsgeneration came in and our
(05:37):
grandparents, uh, they werestill worse, but not as many,
and they dedicated their energyand their lives to make a living
.
Right, they were making aliving.
Many of our grandparents wereeither like factory workers
right, factory workers or theywere just doing different types
(06:01):
of professions not professionslike farming, different types of
professions likenon-professions, farming,
different types of works thattoday we have more options, but
our grandparents, their goal ortheir purpose in life was to
make a living.
And then our parents came inand I don't know your parents'
story, but we can say that ourparents' generation.
(06:24):
They were able to either choosea career or choose a profession
, maybe different from whattheir parents were able to, to
choose right.
And then here we come, and thenour generation comes right.
Which is interesting that in ourgeneration there is so many
(06:44):
options for so many things,right, think about, like, all
the options that we have fortherapy.
We have so many podcasts thattalk about mental health you
name it right.
We have so many.
Still, accessibility is anissue, right?
It's not that everyone hasaccess to mental health services
, but we have so many servicesfor mental health need, right?
(07:07):
So our generation is in charge,or our purpose is to integrate
it all, so to fill what theyneeded.
So what our ancestors needed toexclude in order to survive,
(07:29):
needed to exclude in order tosurvive in today, today's
generation, our generation, weare.
It's not random why, at first,we're having this conversation.
There are so many, uh, placesin the world where, like this is
a thing like integrating andaddressing intergenerational
trauma, and it is because ofthat, because our you know those
that came before us.
They couldn't, they needed toput their attention, their focus
on someone, something else.
(07:50):
Right Now, we have theprivilege to be able to talk
about these, to be able to go totherapy, to be able to talk
about things that we didn'tbefore.
Let's think about.
In today's society, there's somany things that we talk about
that we didn't talk about then.
For example, sexual abuse.
(08:11):
Sexual abuse when I was a kid,that wasn't a thing, not that it
didn't happen, we just didn'ttalk about it.
Or sexuality in general.
We didn't talk about genderidentity.
We didn't talk about that.
We didn't talk about even war.
We didn't talk about thosecountries that were in war.
(08:34):
At least, that was myexperience.
Growing up.
I lived in a bubble where wedidn't talk about many things.
All of those things were stillhappening.
In Argentina, for example, wedidn't talk about abortion.
Abortion is not even legal inArgentina.
And today, of course, there isa big movement that is fighting
(08:56):
these two movements one thatfights for abortion and one that
fights against abortion.
So what I'm trying to say isthat even in today's society,
we're giving voice to many ofthese symptoms, to many of these
challenges that existed before,like domestic violence.
Domestic violence has been athing since we are a species.
(09:18):
We have so many nonprofits, somany organizations that protect
victims or that helpperpetrators to, you know, like
(09:39):
work through their stuff so theycan change right how they
relate with people, but anyway.
So what I'm trying to say withthis is that our generation is a
generation that is not incharge.
Generation is a generation thatis not in charge.
I don't want to say that we arein charge, but we have the
privilege to connect with all ofthat, to make space for it and
to integrate it, so our kidsdon't have to continue to
re-experience, repeat patternsthat we can talk about.
You know we can talk about thatnow if you want to, like how
(10:00):
intergenerational trauma showsup in general.
What like now we're talkingabout, like from a intellectual
perspective, right Like thatprevious generation didn't
integrate is getting repeated intoday's reality.
And then, if you want, we cantalk about like what we're
seeing, that we're making senseof this information.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I love this.
This is so helpful, thisframework and this lens, because
I think the other thing we'vebeen we've said on a couple of
other interviews is like thisstuff is not new, right, these
things that we are dealing with,these symptoms that we are
seeing, these traumas that weare processing, these are not
new experiences for us as aspecies, or even as a country
(10:46):
species, or even as a country.
But why like I get that all thetime, you know well why are we
talking about it now?
Why is this such a big deal now?
Why and partly, we didn't havethe language right you were
talking about, like sexualityand even child abuse or spousal
abuse, like we didn't have thelanguage back then.
And I think I really love thisbecause it wasn't, that wasn't
the most important thing goingon for that generation at the
time.
So it was dropped Right.
(11:08):
And I think that's helpful too,to have some grace and
understanding for pastgenerations, because, I mean,
we're recording this the nightbefore the election season and I
know you know things areheightened right now.
But one of the things thatkeeps coming up, at least in our
practice, is why is this mymess to clean up?
I didn't, you know, like thenewer generations are like why
(11:31):
is it on us to parent my parentswho are of different beliefs,
or having to explain mentalhealth to my parents or to older
generations when they just wantto brush it under the rug?
Still, and it's really helpfulto be able to have some grace
and go, because it wasn'timportant to them.
They had bigger things on theirplate and we have the privilege
(11:52):
now to be in a safer space, tobe able to fight some of these
battles and to look at some ofthese things and to do some of
this integration in this work.
I love that, so I think.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Judy's sorry, go ahead.
So, for everyone who's out there, just pause, because the
conversation is going really,really fast and this is huge,
not just because where we are inthis moment and what may happen
this week, but I have never andI love that you said it, maria
which is we didn't have thelanguage.
Millie, what you said and I,like highlighted it which is our
(12:26):
generation purpose is tointegrate to, is to process and
integrate, because pastgenerations they didn't have the
privilege and I love the wordthat you're using in regards to
what was happening when theywere growing up that they needed
to exclude a lot of things justto survive.
(12:47):
We, this generation, especiallythe three of us who are here,
who are in our 40s, we'retalking about, we have the
privilege to be able to process,because we're saying we don't
want our children to continuerepeating these patterns and if
we can help them to start tohave a different issue, we're
(13:09):
going to call it an issue, adifferent issue that they get to
take on and to work on, becausethey're not dealing with, you
know, the stuff that ourancestors were dealing with, if
it was migration, if it wascrime, if it whatever it was,
even the financial burdens thatthey had, like they don't have
(13:29):
to do that.
They're in a different lens, adifferent view.
So again, let us think in, foreveryone who's listening, our
generation purpose is to processand integrate what our
ancestors went through that ishuge and integrate what our
ancestors went through.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That is huge.
That is huge.
And for some of us we come fromfamilies or ancestors that they
were the perpetrators.
They were the ones that killedpeople, many people, right, for
(14:06):
some of us we are part of afamily and it's not from a
family constellation perspective, which is the one philosophy
that I follow in my practice asother philosophies and
approaches but it's not thatmaybe one generation was, let's
say, let's call it a perpetrator, and maybe the generation
before were the victims and thenthe generation before were the
perpetrators.
(14:26):
Is this dance between it's notthat you are the bad ones and
I'm the good one you are theperpetrator and I'm the victim?
Can you own it in yourself?
Can you look back?
Can you look around, like lookand study your family history,
and can you how do I say thiswithout creating lots of tension
(14:49):
but can you be grateful fromwhere you come from?
And being grateful means canyou integrate both the good and
the bad, because it's reallyeasy to write to say I come from
a, I'm just going to makesomething up.
I come from a family where youknow we were victims of the
Holocaust, right, and of coursethat has.
(15:10):
We know the pain, that of theHolocaust right, and of course
that has.
We know the pain that thatsystem carries and all of that
right.
I can totally love that and begrateful for my ancestors, but
how challenging at least for me,mili would it be to own and to
be grateful for my Nazis.
So let's say that my family'smembers, my ancestors, were
(15:31):
Nazis, right, and to know that Icome from them and to honor
them no, not honor what they did, that is different.
It's not that we are honoringcrime, that is not the message.
But the message is not random,at least from this perspective,
the family that you were born inand can you again own and be
(15:53):
grateful for those that camebefore you, that it wasn't easy
for them and it doesn't meanthat we are again honoring their
crimes.
We're just saying yes, becausewhat you were saying, maria,
about many people saying why dowe have to clean up?
You know, this is not our mess.
It's, let's say, our parents'mess or like someone else's mess
(16:15):
.
Well, actually it's humanity'smess and as long as you're a
human, it impacts you and you'reresponsible for it.
At least I can speak for myselfand that's how I view it.
Whatever is going on in myworld today that affects my life
, that affects my kids, thataffects my community.
I'm a part of it.
So let's study and let's getcurious about our ancestors.
(16:39):
And can we be one with them?
Because this is not what we'redoing.
We are separating and we'resaying we don't belong or we
don't.
You know, we're not alike andwe don't want to be like them,
but part of us continues torepeat what we did because we
are an extension of them.
So it's just about like I don'tknow.
(17:01):
In my opinion, it's curiosity,becoming curious of your roots.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Think about everyone who's listening.
So think about everyone who'slistening.
Think about when a family comesin and they say and you ask
questions.
Part of your intake is you'reworking with a child and you
realize that that parent wasphysically abused, because that
generation was dealing not onlywith a different set of rules in
regards to parenting, butwhatever they were going through
(17:26):
.
And then now the parent is likeI don't want my child to go
through this, that's why we'rehere in therapy.
And then when they'redysregulated, they hit.
So this is repeating a patternwhere we can see ourselves as
villains.
I'm going to use Maria's wordright now for not being able to
stop myself.
But what is the wisdom inhumanizing my parents for what I
(17:51):
went through, trying tointegrate what I learned, trying
to integrate what my familywent through and be able to
embrace the good and the bad andwhy we tend to repeat what we
repeat.
And then what is it that nolonger is serving us and what is
it that we can change it?
So the conversation is learning, so that we can take
(18:14):
accountability, we can processand we can change.
It's not that we're changingour DNA, but it is that we're
changing family patterns, and Ithink that's what you're
suggesting, millie, with thisdiscussion.
Which is, what is it theEuropeans are doing when they
say especially when youmentioned the Holocaust, I was
thinking like they're not sayingthis didn't happen.
(18:34):
Germany is not saying thisdidn't happen.
Germany is saying let's learnfrom it so that we don't repeat
these aspects of our historyanymore.
They're not rejecting it,they're not in denial it didn't
happen, let's not talk about it.
They're saying this is what wedid, this is what we were going
(18:55):
through, and let's make surethat we don't repeat it.
That's the integration in theprocess, that's the process and
the integration per se, wouldyou say, mili, am I getting it?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I was just thinking about.
I've been reading a book that isa little bit controversy about.
You know this topic.
It talks about perpetrators andvictims and what he says, this
guy, what he says is that he'scurious about you know, like,
whenever you talk about victimsright, let's say, you go and you
(19:33):
may see for example, in mycountry we had a big war in 1982
in argentina and you go to aspecific place and you see all
the names of all the soldiersthat died in that war, but you
don't see all the names of allthe perpetrators, all the let's
quote unquote like bad people.
So what this guy says in thisbook is that about the Holocaust
and the you know, what happenedwith the Nazis and the Jewish
(19:55):
community is that we see a lotof Jewish names on these walls
but we never see thepreparator's name.
And in order for us tointegrate this, we need to see
both sides, not just the victims.
We need to see their names,because seeing and reading their
names is a way of them beingresponsible for what they did,
(20:16):
and that matters.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, I agree, I think it also brings in an
opportunity for healing forthose right, because if there is
no name, if there is no image,if there is no acknowledgement
of the other people right, right, then it's very easy then to
slip into like well, did itreally happen?
Was it really that bad, likeyou know, and that those
messages can get perpetuated inthat way.
(20:39):
So I think I think that's areally interesting concept
because we are quick to you know, and history is written by the
survivors and the successors.
But I think it's also reallyinteresting to just kind of note
, like what are we doing when weare distancing or eliminating
the other side, because itclearly has not been serving us
(21:02):
or we wouldn't be having thisconversation, we wouldn't be in
this position for our generationand future generations?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
That's right, I have two thingsin mind.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah, I'm thinking also of time, so we can take
this conversation into.
You know, what are we?
What we're seeing in ourpractice?
We're going to talk about whatis going on in the U?
S, like from the U?
S history, because we alsorepeat patterns here, right?
Not just you know, like we'retalking about what happened,
right?
(21:35):
Of course, the Nazis and theJewish community impacted the
whole world, but there's alsosome like social issues in the
US that continue to repeat thatwe tiptoe around.
So we're going to talk aboutlike something more uh, I don't
know less, I don't know what'sthe word.
We're going to talk about theclinical space or we're going to
(21:57):
talk about what is going on intoday's I think that whatever we
decide right, they're gonna beum, fear-based because everyone
tries to like.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That doesn't happen, even in our field, when, even
when you mention, likegenerationally, families tend to
have issues with sexual abuse,with racism, with a dv, with,
like all these things, bullying,with like all these things that
bring cases to our clinicalpractice, we tend to say, like,
(22:28):
not this part, we're going tofocus on this part.
So even in that, we're repeatinghistorically what we have done.
So if we zoom out from anintergenerational trauma, what
we're saying is that sometimeswe are even excluding
information because we're notready to process into interests
(22:49):
and we tend to super focus onone area, because that's the
capacity that we have, eitherbecause we're not aware, because
we don't want to process andwe're not ready to integrate.
Yeah, and in that, in our field, we'll continue to have the
same patterns, right, even if wezoom out, because we can say
(23:10):
society, us, we can talk family,system, but we can also say in
our field we also have thisissue because we're in denial,
because we're not ready toprocess, we're not ready to
integrate, to pass the baton tothe new cohort so that they can
have a different perspective andthey can have a different fight
(23:32):
per se.
You see this enough that wejust did yes.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Think about this In the state of Colorado.
This is how we exclude.
In my opinion, in the state ofColorado, you need to be at
least right, like when you getto the age of 12, you don't need
parent consent to do therapy.
So what are we doing astherapists?
We are saying to the parents Ipersonally, if I work with a
(24:02):
12-year-old, I work with theparents, but that's how I work,
right?
But from a systemic perspective, the system is saying we don't
need the parents, we're going toput them here aside, we're just
going to work with the kid.
That is a way of excluding, notworking with a client
(24:24):
systemically, which, in myopinion, that's the way to do it
in order to see change.
Right, but that's also themessage that kids get from out
there, right, yeah, you don'tneed your parents for consent.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Come and see me, so let's bring it to the system in
our field being played there,which he says let me teach you
how to work with the child, butnot with the system.
Yeah, we're doing cut off.
Yes, that's right, therapist,we're naming it.
The three of us are naming ithave to work with the system.
Yes, you have to work with thesystem to help help the client
(25:00):
in front of you, and that mayinclude having family sessions
with the purpose to help theclient with whatever the issue
is.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
And having sessions.
I know that not for all playtherapies it's comfortable to
have the parents in the room.
So it's something that sometherapies may need to, just if
they want to work moresystematically to develop right,
like to learn how to be morecomfortable with parents.
But just to start, like, whenyou conceptualize, let's say, an
issue, a symptom, can you startto conceptualize it from a
(25:32):
systemic perspective?
So, for example, I want toshare an example, if that's okay
.
So there is this person in thefamily conservation field.
His name is Stefan Hausner andhe says that parents exclude
their kids, feel attracted to.
(25:53):
I'm going to give you anexample.
I'm going to give you anexample.
I once was doing an intake witha family.
They wanted their six-year-oldto come to therapy because she
was having some suicide ideation, and because I work from this
(26:18):
perspective in my intake, myfirst question was parents were
in the in the intake and I askedthem directly have you ever,
the two of you, thought aboutkilling yourself?
Have you had thoughts about?
And mom's starting to cry?
Yeah, when I was 18, I wentthrough a really hard time, but
we never talk about it.
Okay, I explained this conceptto them.
(26:39):
Your kid is bringing intotoday's life aspects of your
past that haven't been fullyintegrated yet.
Let's do a few play therapysessions, but just know that my
(26:59):
work is with the two of you, aslong as you can make space for
this to talk about suicide, totalk about depression, to tell
them not necessarily tell themwhat happened to you, maybe now,
but maybe in a few years.
So we were able to identify inthat first intake issue and what
my mom shared was like, and mymom had history of depression
(27:23):
and I think someone in thesystem committed suicide.
So, from a family conservationperspective, how do we bring
light into that?
By bringing and talking aboutthat family member that
committed suicide.
So, from a family conservationperspective, those that are
excluded in the system, or theexperiences that are excluded in
(27:43):
the system, influence the onesthat are alive, the ones that
are in today's reality.
So, from this perspective, it'sabout connecting the dots right
, like the same with sexualabuse.
Sexual abuse is systemic.
It never happens as an not innever.
You never know, right Like, Icannot say it never, but it's
(28:05):
not usually an isolated event.
So the same thing with sexualabuse.
When I have an intake with aparents that are, you know
bringing a kid that has beensexually abused.
I ask directly have you beensexually abused as a kid?
And it's usually either mom ordad that starts to cry and says,
yes, that was my experiencegrowing up, but I never told
(28:25):
anyone.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
First of all, mom, if you're listening, I just want
you to know.
This is why, whatever you leftout, I picked it up and even as
you said it right, and we can bejoking and I was like, oh, so
that's why this child pickedthis, like got it.
So even in that, we can haveeasily make sense of three
generations, right?
I love this example, millie,because a lot of the times,
(28:51):
again, because they feel that weare, especially when we say I
am a play therapist, right?
I think it was the last podcastthat we recorded, maria, where
we said we don't tend to talk toeach other.
If we are LMFT and LPCs, wedon't talk to each other, we
don't share resources.
(29:11):
And then, if you narrow it downof like, oh, we're play
therapists, then we don't sharewith LMFTs, we don't share with
LPCs, like, we just don't share.
And this is information, millie, that I feel like, yes, how do
we talk to each other so that wecan share?
Have you considered, not justas an LPC but as a play
therapist, have you considered,how intergenerational trauma is
(29:34):
showing up and why the need toinclude the system is important,
not only for intake history,but we want to make sense of
make sense of the purpose, right, when you said, whatever the
parents exclude, the child isattracted to man.
I quoted that one right awaybecause I was like this is not
(29:56):
mine.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I stole that, but you can take it I stole that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
But you can take it Like this is gold, because
that's how patterns show up inour offices and we don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And I love that, millie, because your approach
right.
Otherwise, that six-year-oldgirl is now pathologized for
having suicidal ideations.
Um is penned to become theoutcast, the black sheep.
The problem when she is simplythe symptom carrier of past
(30:32):
generations, um, not talkingabout their own experiences,
their own um, you know from fromthe norm, from the healthy
right, and I think it goes backto that.
Like that, it, it's ourgeneration who are like no more,
no more, we're not doing this,we're not going to continue to
pass this down to our kids.
(30:53):
And as a provider, you'regiving a template to other
clinician, or clinicians be ableto say, like you know, if
they're coming in with this, I,I can build up the skills to
clinicians be able to say, likeyou know, if they're coming in
with this, I, I can build up theskills to just be able to ask,
point blank mom, dad, who inyour history, or was it you that
has experienced suicidalideations or completed suicides
(31:14):
in either family side?
But yeah, it needs to be thatsimple, it needs to be that
simple instead.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It needs to be that simple Instead of us tiptoeing.
And it's simple and, of course,like and when you ask the right
question, the person on theother side feels seen, it's not
that they're like feeling Inever with this, I never had a
client that was offended bythose questions.
They were feeling like, okay, Iget to talk about this, for
(31:39):
example, I get to talk aboutthis.
For example, I have a briefexample.
I was doing an intake with a dadfor a six-year-old.
He wanted her to come totherapy because when she was two
, mom died right, and so when Iwas doing the intake, I asked
him so what's going on?
And he said well, at night,every time we go to bed, she
(32:00):
says that she wants to die.
She says that she wants to gowith mom.
So I asked him how much do youtalk about mom?
Now, in our family, we don'ttalk about mom.
We don't talk about death,right, death people.
I said does she have a pictureof mom?
Does she know what mom lookslike?
Not really.
I said okay, homework, print apicture of mom, put it in her
(32:26):
bedroom and let her talk aboutmom and bring mom in today's
reality, tell her stories aboutmom when she was pregnant with
her right, like as simple asthat.
And he was someone that he said, okay, I'm going to, I'm going
to follow you.
He went, he printed in thepicture the next day, he put in
his in her bedroom and she neveragain, ever, said that she
wanted to kill herself.
(32:47):
Never.
It's that simple, it's not thatcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, it's so powerful though.
It's so powerful right, boththe recognizing and the asking,
and then the power that comesfrom just a little bit of
understanding andacknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's huge, that congruency, that attunement,
right Like that understanding of, in order to simplify it for
caretakers, simple exercisesthat they can do at home in
order to make it explicit andstart conversations.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
such a beautiful task , mili that we can all do right.
And going back to us therapists, we also have our patterns
through our clients.
That connects to our ownhistory, so that this is the
next phrase that so our clientssometimes bring light into that
(33:49):
that we exclude.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I have to say that, sorry for interrupting me, but I
have to say, like when LisaDeanne started teaching us that
I was like mm-mm, I'm not readyfor this.
I don't know if you remember,cause sometimes we will sit
close by each other, cause youknow that I, I was like I'm not
ready for this.
I don't know if you remember,because sometimes we will sit
close by each other, because youknow that I talk a lot, but
like when, when she will startlike talking about, you know,
system carrier, what you know,the clients that we're
(34:13):
attracting into our practice,and I was like that cannot be it
.
That cannot be it and it tookme a while.
So, for everyone who'slistening out there, what
Millie's talking about issomething that it took us a
while to integrate in order tomake sense of.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Absolutely, but we hear that all the time, right as
supervisors too.
It's like, well, I don'tunderstand how I ended up with a
caseload full of fill in theblank here and it's lovely to be
able to like, oh I'm I'mwondering what that's reflecting
of your own experiences thatyou yourself have not completely
integrated, or you'recontinuing to actively try to
(34:51):
hide.
Um, sometimes the the universecan get real loud with messages
if we're ignoring them or they,they think your family carried
right, because sometimes it wasnot you.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
They remember-.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
The intergenerational trauma reflects also in your
case.
It's not just what happened toyou directly.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, because I was going to say I remember asking
Lisa, but I haven't gone throughthis and it took me a while
Like, oh, this is not mine yetI'm carrying it, Got it.
But it takes a while because wehave to be able to be open, to
be curious, even askingquestions of family that a lot
(35:35):
of times we don't talk about,not just because they're secrets
, because they're shame orbecause they were not shared
right period.
So, millie, I'm wondering wewere going to put information,
how people to, how othertherapists can contact you,
because I think you're doingamazing trainings and everyone
(35:56):
needs to know about you.
But is what is one thing thatyou want them to know about you
before we say goodbye today, notforever.
Today I'm sure you're comingback.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And my invitation.
I don't know if something thatI want them to know about me,
but my invitation is for for allall the listeners to get
curious, to like to get outsideof the box, like, like this work
.
If you are sitting in yourheart and you are, you know,
connected with your roots andwith who you are, it's so much
(36:29):
more I don't know, it flows,it's much easier.
You won't burn out if you are,you know, working from that
place.
So my invitation is to justopen your heart and really get
curious about where you comefrom and those aspects of your
history that haven't beenintegrated yet.
And integration means it'sanother opportunity to to to let
(36:50):
that experience, to make spacefor it, to be able to be in
relationship with it.
So that's what I want to, how Iwant to end.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Oh, that was beautiful, Maria.
Anything that you want to add?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I love that.
Yeah, I'm going to justpiggyback off of that and
encourage especially playtherapists, who tend to just
prefer working with the child,to welcome in the whole system
and be curious of the entiresystem that that child might be
representing and bringing forthbut is not the only owner of
(37:24):
whatever the complaints orproblem behaviors might be.
Everyone's going to come to thesystem side.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Thank you, millie, for honoring us with your
presence today.
Listeners, please make sure onthe bottom of the podcast you
will have Mila's informationthere.
Contact her, do consultationswith her.
She is an outstanding therapist.
Reach out to her and remembershe's bilingual, so whatever
language you need, like she willbe able to help you here, mila.
(37:56):
Thank you and until next time.
Thank you, edith.
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