April 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Join us for a compelling conversation with Sybil Cummin, a licensed professional counselor whose expertise in domestic violence sheds light on a topic often misunderstood. Sybil takes us beyond the physical aspects of abuse, highlighting the more subtle yet equally damaging forms of control and manipulation that can infiltrate relationships. From financial manipulation to spiritual abuse, Sybil unpacks the various ways one partner can exert power over another, urging us to recognize these signs early on.
We challenge societal stereotypes and cultural misconceptions that simplify domestic abuse to mere physical violence between heterosexual partners. Sybil and I delve into the complexities of how abuse can cross all boundaries of gender and demographics, bringing to light issues like immigration status being used as a tool for control. We also confront the damaging effects of victim blaming, particularly the insidious question of "why didn't you leave?" and explore the ongoing struggles faced by survivors, especially those with children.
For mental health professionals, this episode is a call to action. Sybil stresses the necessity of proper training and preparation when working with victims of domestic violence. We discuss the often-overlooked connection between domestic violence and other mental health issues, drawing parallels with the manipulative tactics of cults. This episode urges therapists to seek additional resources and training, equipping themselves to understand better and address the complexities of domestic violence within the broader context of societal structures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back listeners for another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, mariaLaquer-Diego, and I am joined by
my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was going to say Sibyl, but no, it's me, Sibyl
Baylor.
I have not had my coffee before, just bear with me.
And we are here with Sibyl.
Sibyl, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, there's so many ways to do that, so many ways
to introduce myself.
I have elevator pitch.
I am a licensed professionalcounselor, approved clinical
supervisor, but I reallyspecialize in working with
families where there has beenabuse, neglect and domestic
violence in the home, and so Irun a small group practice in
(00:53):
the Denver metro area and I alsoI host a podcast and have a
community specific for thispopulation, and I'm really
passionate about teaching othermental health professionals the
real like the good, the bad andthe ugly of what domestic
violence actually looks like,Because when I got started I
(01:16):
didn't know, I had no clue whatit looked like, and so I want
you all out there listening toreally understand what it looks
like, what to do maybe when thescary comes up for you.
This population can be reallyfrustrating to work with as well
.
So all of those things I wantto kind of shout out from the
(01:38):
rooftops about.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I love that.
I love that, so should we startwith.
What does it?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
look like, yeah, it can.
Right, like when I we talked alittle bit offline about this is
that when I was in grad school,I had like one class where
there was like 30 minutes ofwhat domestic violence was, and
the only thing I took from thatis don't do couples work when
there's domestic violence Movingon Right, yep, and so I'm like,
(02:08):
ok, but I have no idea how toassess for that, what does it
look like?
Is this woman going to comeinto my office with a black eye,
like what even is that?
And so the term domesticviolence even is a bad term, and
people use intimate partnerviolence.
Some of the cool kids terms isnarcissistic abuses out there.
(02:31):
That's like that's out there.
A newer term that I really likeit's not even that newer, but
newer to the kind of wideraudience is coercive control.
So that is really what's goingon.
And then there are elements ofviolence as a part of it, and so
(02:52):
people, right like people thinkit's going to look like
physical violence.
And yes, that happens, itabsolutely happens, way more
than we'd like to believe ithappens.
And what domestic violenceactually looks like is when one
partner is holding power andcontrol, in whatever way that
looks like over their otherpartner.
(03:15):
So that can be throughfinancial means, it can be
through like emotional andpsychological manipulation.
It can be using the kids, itcan be using threats, it can be,
you know, using the peoplearound them.
The term is flying monkeys isto use other people to continue
(03:36):
to harm and to abuse the person.
It can be in spiritual innature, so using like scripture
or other forms of kind ofreligion is more often used to
harm the person and have controlover the person.
(03:56):
Sexual abuse and threats ofsexual coercion is all in there
as well.
So really, any time where onepartner is purposefully,
willfully, trying to havecontrol over their partner, that
is an element of that coercivecontrol and domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So all of you breathe as you're listening because
you're like wait, what?
What?
That's right.
So there's a misconception whenwe go even to trainings about
domestic violence, where theytend to focus on one aspects of
the umbrella term, which isdomestic violence.
But what civil is sharing withall of you is that it's more
(04:41):
than it's actually about control.
Let me see if I captureeverything that you were talking
about, which is we're talkingabout physical abuse, sexual
abuse, emotional abuse,intimidation, which that will
include immigration status, isisand verbal abuse, coercion,
threats, blame using maleprivilege, economic abuse and
what I never considered wasreligion abuse.
(05:03):
I love that today, not that Ilove it, but I love it Actually.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
no, I don't love that .
Speaker 2 (05:12):
So it's more than it's not just like all of us
therapists who like to use theterm PTSD, no domestic violence.
There's so many layers that goon, yes.
So we want you to breathe, moveyour body and recognize that
it's not that simple when we'reusing this term.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think the part that's really
hard to stomach for a lot oftherapists, specifically because
we are supposed to be traumainformed everybody, because we
are supposed to betrauma-informed everybody so
when someone is kind ofperpetrating abuses, we would
really like to look at the whyare they doing that?
And this must be childhoodtrauma and they don't have
(05:54):
attachment they didn't get.
So yes to a lot of those things.
And the abuse they're doing iswillful and it's really
strategic and it starts at thefirst date, or even before, or
even before At the firstinteraction.
It already starts.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, whew.
I wish all of you could saythis yeah, gross, right, which
is like ugh.
Then now it's automaticallychanged.
Right, yeah, which is true, istrue, right.
We live in a patriarchy world,and it is when you are starting
those dates and we get soexcited.
But it's more than that, right?
(06:37):
This is if you're focusing withadults, if you're focusing with
children.
It's even the way that wemanipulate children in order to
believe Right.
So it's all this, and I throwthe immigration one, because
it's the one that I tend to seemore in my practice.
Yes, which is how it is used tocontrol a person.
(06:57):
So in this one, it doesn'tmatter the gender, it just
happens a lot, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, I've seen that very often.
To where right.
So someone from a differentcountry is here on a visa and
they fall in love with theirsoulmate and I say that
facetiously and they let theirvisa lapse because there is the
(07:23):
promise of marriage, there isthe promise of this amazing
better life.
And visa lapses and now theyare not here legally and now
they cannot seek help.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a lot of itthat you know.
I think we also were up againstwhat our programming trains us
and the lack thereof.
We're also up against, like popculture and media, portrayals
of domestic violence and whatthat looks like and the reality
(07:58):
of the situation.
Right Even.
Still, most portrayals ofdomestic violence is physical
abuse between a male partner anda female partner, where the
male partner is the perpetrator.
That's not all that it can looklike, right.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah, because, right, we have and this is
(08:42):
location specific, likegeographic specific or not
married to a blue collar workerwho's going to come home, crack
open a beer and beat her.
Yeah, like, that's the like,what we think, that's what we're
kind of taught, that's whatwe're shown, and that is not
what I see every day in myoffice, in my community.
(09:03):
It doesn't discriminate age,education, financial, race,
ethnicity.
There's differences within thatright.
So, like, what it looks likemay be different depending on
these different characteristicsor demographics.
We have male victims, we havefemale victims who are abused by
(09:25):
female partners.
Right, we, it doesn'tdiscriminate.
And that's why I think it's sotricky, because you won't even
know as a client that you are avictim of abuse, because you
don't look like that, you don'tfit the mold.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think that's exactly when wetalk about culture, when we talk
about the stereotypes that wecreate in regards to a niche,
right?
So when you were describingthat, Sibyl, I was thinking like
oh, I saw that in a movie, butit's not purple movies, right?
And unfortunately, sometimeswhen we go to training, when we
(10:04):
go to trainings, we continuewith that stereotype.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So I love that you're naming.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
No, it doesn't look like that because that's the
reality of the work.
When we work with thispopulation.
It will never look like thatand I love that you started with
.
A lot of times we're trying tomake sense of why are they doing
what they're doing?
And then the next question andtell me if I'm wrong goes into
but why they have not left, whyare they staying?
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yes, yes, yes, and that is right.
So if you are a therapist oryou're just like a human being,
don't ask that question.
Thank you, right, it is like alot of the trauma work that I do
(10:53):
with my clients in my practiceis around not the abuse that
happened from their partner.
It is about the abuse theyreceived when they reached out
for help, yeah, and from ourlarger system and from family
and friends who did this verymild victim blaming.
It's right, like from theoutside it seems really mild,
but it is.
It cuts deeper than my clientswho have had a gun held to their
face.
Yeah, it is worse that someonethey loved and cared about with
(11:17):
like a scowl is like why thefuck didn't you leave, like I
would have left the first time,right?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
it's really harmful.
So much shaming there, right,just with that statement.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yes, and it reinforces why women
traditionally women, but victimsdon't speak up and it takes
them so long.
Right, because that is the fearthat they're going to be met
with judgment where they'regoing to be met with.
Well, why didn't you?
Or I would have done itdifferently.
Or you know, when I was in myundergrad program, I worked at
(11:53):
our local domestic violenceshelter and one of the first
things I mean this was this wasa little bit ago, but like back
then, the statistic was it tookit.
It took a woman eight times tofully leave and not return to
that relationship.
You know, I can't imagine now,because back then we didn't have
social media, like we havesocial media now because I'm old
(12:15):
but I think that that's part ofit too is like we're being
exposed to all of these messagesthat can be so shaming that if
you do reach out heaven forbidto your loved ones, families and
friends or a professionalcounselor and are met with
victim blaming.
What are we?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
doing.
Yeah, it's horrifying Some ofthe things that I've heard from,
yes, professionals, and I thinksomething that we as and this
is actually I have like asubspecialty in my practice um,
is so we as a mental healthcommunity are like, oh, thank
(12:56):
God, they, they left, they leftthe relationship If they share
children with their partner.
There's no leaving it, reallythere is no leaving.
That post-separation abuse is adifferent kind of hell, is the
language of my clients, and thesystem not only allows but
(13:17):
supports it to happen.
Men find themselves as they havechildren.
They were never hit right,Because if there was that police
report that they could bring tocourt, sometimes, let's be real
, that actually doesn't matter.
But right in the criminal case,it's like, wow, you should have
(13:41):
no contact with this abusiveperson.
Here is an order of protection,they cannot come within 100
yards of you, they should nevercommunicate with you.
And then we show up in familycourt and they're like, oh,
actually you're going to need totalk every day about your child
and you're going to need toco-parent and make it just great
(14:02):
and we're not even going tolook at abuse.
That's happening.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Which is exhausting.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
As a therapist, it yes reading those documents and
and realizing that the systemwas never set up to support, in
this case, let's say the, thecaretaker who's taking care of
their children.
Yeah and um, it's just, oursystems are exhausting.
Can I say that out loud again?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yes, yes and right.
So I know, liliana, you workwith kids.
Maria, I don't know if you workwith kids or not.
Yes, and guess what there's?
The majority of childtherapists out there do not
accept these cases when theyknow that they are in family
court, and so these kids don'thave support, the protective
(14:56):
parents don't have support, andthen our family court system is
just the biggest dumpster firethat can be of all the biases
that could ever be there.
They're there, of all thebiases that could ever be there.
They're there.
And so you know, sometimes andthis sounds horrible it makes
sense for victims to not leave.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I have to share this piece, which is I have.
Everyone who knows about meknows that I take too many
trainings.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
That's where I spend my money.
That's okay, because this is mymoney.
Acknowledging is the first step,lilian.
I'm very proud of you, thankyou.
Second part is the besttraining I ever took was not
from mental health therapists.
(15:38):
We have an organization here inColorado that used to do this
trainings.
I'm kind of reaching out andsay, like, can you do this?
But maybe it's going to beusable.
I don't know, but the besttraining I ever took was from
Family Tree, which is anorganization that helps and
supports these families inregards to trainings, in regards
(16:00):
to housing, in regards to likeit's, all these things.
So, anyway, my training withthem went like this it was five
days training, by the way, thatat the end there was a role play
which I had to leave.
I was the victim.
I have so much money left in myaccount.
I had a child, I had a pet andthere was no hotel that will
(16:21):
take us.
I ran out of money and I had nochoice but to go back.
I never forgot that role playbecause I try, and everything
that I knew cognitively andeverything that I needed and
everything I knew emotionallytold me that I was going to have
to suck it up for the well ofmy child.
In that moment and in thatmoment I understood, I embody
(16:44):
what it was like to be in thatposition and no matter what I
knew, what I was going to haveto support, because I was so
alienated, I was not allowed tohave Work history, I was not
allowed to Like in that roleplay that I was like oh shit,
the system set me up so that Icould not escape.
(17:05):
Yep, I hated the training.
I cried so much After that rolerole play, but it was the best
training because they neverasked stupid questions and I
never created stereotypes.
Um, because I understood inthat moment what was that like
to be in that position yeah andright, it's like we are.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
We get inundated by messaging as well, right, not
just our clients.
And so we have this belief thatthere are these systems that
are set up to protect, like lawenforcement, family court, child
protection, right, the criminalcourt system.
(17:54):
All of these you know placesare meant to protect and have
the best interest of children.
Is their taught, is like theirslogan, right, that's in family
court, whereas it's it'sactually not true.
So if you are there and youwrite like I put call 911 on my
safety plans and there's moreconversation than that, what has
your experience been withpolice?
Yeah, right, because it honestly, and this is so heartbreaking,
(18:19):
but it depends on who shows upat your door Whether you as the
victim are going to get arrested, or whether the perpetrator is
going to be arrested, or whetheranyone's going to be arrested
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Can we add these two?
Sybil, Because in my experienceI've worked with people of
color.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
As soon as they see you, or if you have an accent,
or if all these things.
You are screwed.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yes, yes.
So it brings up a client that Iworked with.
It was a Black woman and so,yes, we're safety planning
because the risk factors werehorrific for homicide.
So if there's strangulation,they will say choking.
They're not going to saystrangulation.
So if they've been choked, theyneed a safety plan.
Yesterday, other than a firearmbeing used as a weapon during
(19:08):
an abusive incident,strangulation is the highest
predictor of homicide.
So, just so folks know thatwhen you're out there.
But it was a Black woman with aBlack partner, black male
partner who was pretty large,and Black sons in her home.
So, as we're creating a safetyplan and I'm like, hey, we, we
(19:32):
need to put, we're going to call911 on there, and she's like
never going to happen.
And I was like, and I'm superaware.
I am super aware because she'slike my partner might wind up
dead, my children might wind updead, I might wind up dead, I
don't know, because the fear isreal, it's valid, and so we need
(19:56):
to not just write like, yeah,this sounds horrible, but I'll
put it out there.
We need to have 911 on thatsafety plan to protect us.
Yes, that's why it is there.
It is protecting me as thetherapist that I did the thing
in my safety plan.
They may not call 911, and weneed to know why For their own
(20:17):
safety.
Yeah, we need to know why andwe need to put that out there.
Because they may not put thatout there, right, and they may
just nod their head and smileand put 911 on their safety plan
, but then they don't actuallyknow what to do because they're
not going to call 911.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Right, right, that's such a good point?
Yeah, and I think it's.
I think it is important thatyou know we we want these
systems in place to do what wewant them to do and to be
protective.
You know, I know here in ourcommunity it also can depend on
how many times 911 has beencalled to your house.
The response that you get whenthey get called out and who
(20:55):
calls, can make a difference.
Yeah, I'm wondering what else Imean.
I think the strangulationtidbit that you just dropped is
going to be brand newinformation for many of our
listeners, is going to be brandnew information for many of our
listeners.
But where should cliniciansstart so that we are not
(21:16):
perpetuating the damage, we'renot perpetuating the victim
shaming and blaming Other than?
I mean we'll list you or incontact information, but where
can someone start to get moreinformation and better
understanding?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And so there are like amazingagencies like Family Tree.
I work with Family Tree thatLiliana shared before.
They are fabulous and you arenot maybe in Jefferson County,
colorado, where Family Tree islocated, so you might want to
not use just Family Tree.
There is a website, it's calleddomesticsheltersorg.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So you can search your state, you can search your
county, city, and it willprovide you the agency in your
area.
But other than that, they andthey're not paying me to talk
about them, but they're awesome,they have a ton of resources,
they have amazing articles, theyhave webinars, they have free
(22:19):
resources that you can attendall the time, all the time, and
so they have.
They are partnered with.
I can't remember the agencyname, but it is a specific
organization that focuses onstrangulation.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And so, if you are interested in learning about
those risk factors, they havespecific webinars on that.
They have specific webinars onfamily court which, fyi, I got
to lead one of those Nice.
Which, fyi, I got to lead oneof those Nice.
But they have amazing resourceson that site and they will send
you.
The site will send you whereyou need to go.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I love that Beautiful .
So again, right.
So from the beginning we'retalking about there's a lot of
myths, like stereotypes, andfirst of all, can I go back, um,
and say we as therapists havethese fantasies, um, and I love
them because where the world isgonna be perfect, everything is
(23:19):
gonna be fair and just.
And then we go into trainingfor our master's program and
we're like, oh, my god, I'm soready to go change the world.
And then we start taking theseterms.
We're like I'm not gonna workwith that population thank you
for naming that table, which ismost of the therapists are like
I will not work with couplesbecause of this.
I will not work with childrenbecause of this beautiful.
(23:41):
That is the privilege.
Good for you to live in thatbubble.
The reality is that they comein, and part of this podcast is
how do we prepare you so that,one, you have awareness.
Two, you don't panic and thereare resources out there, and so
(24:03):
that we don't continue withthose messages that add to the
shame, that add to the guilt,that add to even the religion?
I never crossed my mind untilyou said it and that's not gonna
go away now, because I'm like,yeah, that was, religion is
being used in the big time inour society.
Because even when you said it,I was like holy cow.
(24:25):
That's why my grandma used totell me that's your cross, you
have to carry it right.
And that was like, oh, I cannotleave, because then god is
gonna be mad.
God is like sauna clothes,they're watching everywhere
every day and, um, family maynot be supported because then
(24:45):
you are leaving, you arebreaking those, those walls, and
then the system is not set upto help you, because the system
was not for women, by women.
It was set up by men, for men.
I was just reading an article inTexas.
What is suggested there inregards to marriages?
I will not go into it becausethis is not a political.
I was like holy cow.
People chill, they're goingback and they're using religion
(25:10):
in that perspective.
Yeah, and I was going to saysomething so inappropriate, but
I'm going to keep it.
But what you're talking abouttoday is all the therapists
listening out there one.
It is scary to work with thispopulation and you don't have to
work with them, but you do haveto have a list of referrals.
(25:32):
That is ethical practice foryou to have a list of referrals
to share out, or even resourcessuch as domestic sheltersorg.
Thank you for sharing that withus today.
But there's things that you cando in order for be prepared for
the what if?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, yeah, and when.
It's interesting.
You brought that up when I wasstarted to do trainings for
mental health professionalsbecause I struggled to find
referral sources when I was fullor my practice was full, and so
I would do these.
And this was before COVID, solive trainings, which, oh
hallelujah, I love it, like inperson, and when I would ask
(26:10):
people who were there justbecause I would do free
trainings, because I was likey'all need to know this.
And they're like but Sybil, Idon't work with domestic
violence.
And so I'd be like, well, howmany clients do you typically
see in a week?
And they're like, oh, I don'tknow, 20, 25, whatever it might
be.
I was like, if you see 20female clients in a week, five
of them are victims of domesticviolence or will be Two and a
(26:35):
half of them.
If they are all 20 men, two anda half of them will be a victim
of domestic violence or will be.
So you actually do work withthat.
But that may not be why they'recoming in, because they don't
know that they are being abused.
So they're coming in foranxiety, they're coming in for
(26:57):
postpartum depression, they'recoming in for these other
illnesses or ailments or mentalhealth issues.
But what's actually going on,or in addition to, is domestic
violence right?
Like, yeah, you're going to beanxious if someone you were
never right, they're talkingtrash about you, they're
isolating you from everyone youknow and there's a threat that
(27:18):
they're going to physically harmyou every day?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yep, I'd be pretty anxious too.
Yeah, anxiety seems like anormal reaction to that
situation.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Very normal reaction, right, and so they may be
coming in because they believethat there is something
inherently wrong with them,because that's what they've been
told over and, over and over bytheir partner.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And yet it's actually domestic violence.
That is what is going on, right?
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, because if they don't know and the clinician
doesn't know what to look for,then we're all dancing around it
, yeah, and very often when I'mdoing consultations with
clinicians are like, well, Idon't think he's abusive, but
he's an asshole.
With, clinicians are like, well, I don't think he's abusive,
but he's an asshole, and so it'sreally looking at like, okay,
(28:08):
so he might be just an asshole.
Yep, let's look at it.
But are there elements ofcoercion?
Right?
What does that look like?
Domestic violence has beendeemed a cult of one.
That is something that has beenkind of a metaphor or something
, because the things that workto build cults, that is the
exact same things that work tohave a successful and I air
(28:30):
quoted that domestic violencerelationship.
It's the same types of grooming, the same types of coercion
that allow people to become cultmembers as a victim of domestic
violence.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That is fascinating, and I mean duh right Like yes,
yes, of course, of course.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, but it's like we don't want to think
about that because we're likecults are so rare and that's so
weird.
And it like, right, it keeps tothink about that because we're
like cults are so rare andthat's so weird.
And it like, right, it keeps usfeeling safe that this isn't
happening.
And the cult of one andsometimes it's not just the one
right, because they'll gathertheir, their followers, to help
abuse and, to you know, keepthis person in line, which might
(29:16):
be, you know, faith-based, likemembers of their religion, or
even their faith leader, or theother moms at the school at the
pickup lines.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, they may use all these different methods to
keep the person stuck andisolated, so they can't leave
and what I tend to see most andtell me if you have seen it too
in your practice, which is mostpeople have a hard time
separating like profession andthen how they show up at home.
(29:49):
So he's a good police officer.
There's no way he's a goodteacher.
There's.
He's a good coach.
There's no way.
You're yes, which I'm like areyou kidding me?
You cannot separate.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Someone can have a profession and be good at it,
and they can suck at home yeahand even and this is like
grosser to me, probably becauseof who I work with but like, but
he's a good dad.
Yeah, but no, but he's a gooddad.
He's ab, like, but he's a gooddad.
Yeah, but no, but he's a gooddad.
He's abusing her, but he's agood dad.
Yeah, in my true of.
(30:26):
And this is not just like myvalue system, this is what I see
every day.
If it is someone who is abusingthe other parent of the child,
they cannot be what I wouldconsider a good parent, because
they are incapable, for the mostpart, of unconditional care and
(30:49):
love.
Love will always have stringsattached.
It doesn't mean that they willalways be unsafe to the child,
but they are not a good parent.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
And so that is really really hard to kind of wrap
your head around and like whenwe?
And it'll go super dark, superdark.
So if we are looking at thehomicide cases we've had,
unfortunately, unfortunately alot of recent ones the media
portrayals will be family mankilled, family of five.
(31:23):
You're like that's a fuckingfamily man, what are you talking
about?
Or like we could have neverknown that he would do murder,
suicide, his ex, his ex-partner,his child, and you're like,
excuse me, actually everypredictor was present, everybody
(31:44):
, like they were all there, theywere there right.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And so it's like fantasy of relationships and how
, as a society, we fight so hardto maintain comfort.
Do not show me that, becausethis is my bubble and I want to
stay here.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yep, yes.
And so for us doing theclinical work, we actually need
to know the ugly.
We need to take care ofourselves knowing the ugly.
We don't necessarily have toshare all of the ugly with our
clients it is.
(32:28):
It is for us to bewell-informed so that we can
help our clients not be in thenews of like that and they
already know some of it.
We don't.
It's not our job to rub salt intheir wound, be like oh, do you
know?
Family court, you're likelygoing to lose your kids if you
bring up domestic violence.
Did you know that?
No, no, we need to know thatwe're going to support them in
(32:49):
very different ways than sharingall the scary.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Beautiful.
Oh my God.
I see Maria like nodding,taking out.
She's like she's taking it in.
She's like I'm ready for moreof this.
Sibyl, what is one thing thatyou want our audience to take
from this episode?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
haven't talked about it specifically but the one
thing as a mental healthprovider, that if you do this or
know this, you will help yourperson.
It is not ethical for us toreplicate the power and control
dynamic of the abusiverelationship.
And so if we see them as likethese victims, and they're
broken and they can't makedecisions, and we try to make
(33:43):
decisions for them, we arereplicating that power and
control dynamic.
So, yes, it is hard to sit andhear that they are not going to
leave.
They're going back.
You're like, oh gosh, likethey're going to like it's going
to continue.
They're going back.
You're like, oh gosh, likethey're going to like it's going
to continue.
They're going to keep gettingabused.
How can I keep doing this work?
How can I show up?
It is their choice to stay ornot to stay.
(34:07):
It is their, their experts ontheir experience.
They are the experts on theirexperience.
And so, even while I'm anexpert on domestic violence and
coercive control, what it lookslike, they know and this sounds
backwards they know how to staysafe enough.
Yeah, and we have to trust thatthey can stay safe enough, and
(34:31):
so we just can't make thosechoices for them.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh, beautiful, right.
So please, for all of you whoare are listening, it's not our
job to project.
It's not our job to beresentful because they know how
to survive.
Yeah, our job is just to sitwith them.
It's just to empower them andsupport them how it works for
(34:56):
them, not for you and youragenda as a therapist.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Just very similar to our play therapy listeners,
right Like we don't do for, weempower them to do the best for
themselves, which isn't may notalways be what we would choose
for them, but it's not ourchoice to make.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, yeah and right the.
The thing that is stripped froma victim of domestic violence
is their sense of autonomy andsense of self.
And so if they get one placewhere they get to make choices
and try that on again and figureout who they are, that is,
(35:35):
that's my job is to be thatplace for them and that safe
person for them.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, beautiful, incredible.
Oh, sibyl, thank you so muchfor being here with us today and
for sharing your knowledge withour audience, audience.
Just so you know, we're goingto include again, like we do in
other podcasts, Sibylinformation.
Just know that I will includethe name of her podcast.
This is a podcast that you wantto go listen to so that you can
(36:02):
learn more about it and thenyou can reach out to civil for
training opportunities, forconsultation opportunities.
Please know, as she shared withus some aesthetics, which is
you are working with thispopulation.
You just do not know what tolook for, and that's okay.
Our training was not set up forthat, and when I mean our
(36:23):
training is our master's program, because they were just giving
us so much information inregards to models.
Now it's our responsibility togo and get trained to show up
for our clients.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, incredible, sybil.
Thank you so much for beinghere thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
It's like the louder I can shout it from the rooftops
, the more people will be helpedyeah and the more therapists
will not feel scared out oftheir freaking minds doing the
work I mean, you can be scared,just don't pee in your pants,
okay right thank you, thank youlisteners, until next time.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Till then,
Welcome back listeners for another episode of
a Heroes Welcome podcast.
I am your co-host, mariaLaquer-Diego, and I am joined by
my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was going to say Sibyl, but no, it's me, Sibyl
Baylor.
I have not had my coffee before, just bear with me.
And we are here with Sibyl.
Sibyl, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, there's so many ways to do that, so many ways
to introduce myself.
I have elevator pitch.
I am a licensed professionalcounselor, approved clinical
supervisor, but I reallyspecialize in working with
families where there has beenabuse, neglect and domestic
violence in the home, and so Irun a small group practice in
(00:53):
the Denver metro area and I alsoI host a podcast and have a
community specific for thispopulation, and I'm really
passionate about teaching othermental health professionals the
real like the good, the bad andthe ugly of what domestic
violence actually looks like,Because when I got started I
(01:16):
didn't know, I had no clue whatit looked like, and so I want
you all out there listening toreally understand what it looks
like, what to do maybe when thescary comes up for you.
This population can be reallyfrustrating to work with as well
.
So all of those things I wantto kind of shout out from the
(01:38):
rooftops about.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I love that.
I love that, so should we startwith.
What does it?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
look like, yeah, it can.
Right, like when I we talked alittle bit offline about this is
that when I was in grad school,I had like one class where
there was like 30 minutes ofwhat domestic violence was, and
the only thing I took from thatis don't do couples work when
there's domestic violence Movingon Right, yep, and so I'm like,
(02:08):
ok, but I have no idea how toassess for that, what does it
look like?
Is this woman going to comeinto my office with a black eye,
like what even is that?
And so the term domesticviolence even is a bad term, and
people use intimate partnerviolence.
Some of the cool kids terms isnarcissistic abuses out there.
(02:31):
That's like that's out there.
A newer term that I really likeit's not even that newer, but
newer to the kind of wideraudience is coercive control.
So that is really what's goingon.
And then there are elements ofviolence as a part of it, and so
(02:52):
people, right like people thinkit's going to look like
physical violence.
And yes, that happens, itabsolutely happens, way more
than we'd like to believe ithappens.
And what domestic violenceactually looks like is when one
partner is holding power andcontrol, in whatever way that
looks like over their otherpartner.
(03:15):
So that can be throughfinancial means, it can be
through like emotional andpsychological manipulation.
It can be using the kids, itcan be using threats, it can be,
you know, using the peoplearound them.
The term is flying monkeys isto use other people to continue
(03:36):
to harm and to abuse the person.
It can be in spiritual innature, so using like scripture
or other forms of kind ofreligion is more often used to
harm the person and have controlover the person.
(03:56):
Sexual abuse and threats ofsexual coercion is all in there
as well.
So really, any time where onepartner is purposefully,
willfully, trying to havecontrol over their partner, that
is an element of that coercivecontrol and domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So all of you breathe as you're listening because
you're like wait, what?
What?
That's right.
So there's a misconception whenwe go even to trainings about
domestic violence, where theytend to focus on one aspects of
the umbrella term, which isdomestic violence.
But what civil is sharing withall of you is that it's more
(04:41):
than it's actually about control.
Let me see if I captureeverything that you were talking
about, which is we're talkingabout physical abuse, sexual
abuse, emotional abuse,intimidation, which that will
include immigration status, isisand verbal abuse, coercion,
threats, blame using maleprivilege, economic abuse and
what I never considered wasreligion abuse.
(05:03):
I love that today, not that Ilove it, but I love it Actually.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
no, I don't love that .
Speaker 2 (05:12):
So it's more than it's not just like all of us
therapists who like to use theterm PTSD, no domestic violence.
There's so many layers that goon, yes.
So we want you to breathe, moveyour body and recognize that
it's not that simple when we'reusing this term.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think the part that's really
hard to stomach for a lot oftherapists, specifically because
we are supposed to be traumainformed everybody, because we
are supposed to betrauma-informed everybody so
when someone is kind ofperpetrating abuses, we would
really like to look at the whyare they doing that?
And this must be childhoodtrauma and they don't have
(05:54):
attachment they didn't get.
So yes to a lot of those things.
And the abuse they're doing iswillful and it's really
strategic and it starts at thefirst date, or even before, or
even before At the firstinteraction.
It already starts.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, whew.
I wish all of you could saythis yeah, gross, right, which
is like ugh.
Then now it's automaticallychanged.
Right, yeah, which is true, istrue, right.
We live in a patriarchy world,and it is when you are starting
those dates and we get soexcited.
But it's more than that, right?
(06:37):
This is if you're focusing withadults, if you're focusing with
children.
It's even the way that wemanipulate children in order to
believe Right.
So it's all this, and I throwthe immigration one, because
it's the one that I tend to seemore in my practice.
Yes, which is how it is used tocontrol a person.
(06:57):
So in this one, it doesn'tmatter the gender, it just
happens a lot, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, I've seen that very often.
To where right.
So someone from a differentcountry is here on a visa and
they fall in love with theirsoulmate and I say that
facetiously and they let theirvisa lapse because there is the
(07:23):
promise of marriage, there isthe promise of this amazing
better life.
And visa lapses and now theyare not here legally and now
they cannot seek help.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a lot of itthat you know.
I think we also were up againstwhat our programming trains us
and the lack thereof.
We're also up against, like popculture and media, portrayals
of domestic violence and whatthat looks like and the reality
(07:58):
of the situation.
Right Even.
Still, most portrayals ofdomestic violence is physical
abuse between a male partner anda female partner, where the
male partner is the perpetrator.
That's not all that it can looklike, right.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah, because, right, we have and this is
(08:42):
location specific, likegeographic specific or not
married to a blue collar workerwho's going to come home, crack
open a beer and beat her.
Yeah, like, that's the like,what we think, that's what we're
kind of taught, that's whatwe're shown, and that is not
what I see every day in myoffice, in my community.
(09:03):
It doesn't discriminate age,education, financial, race,
ethnicity.
There's differences within thatright.
So, like, what it looks likemay be different depending on
these different characteristicsor demographics.
We have male victims, we havefemale victims who are abused by
(09:25):
female partners.
Right, we, it doesn'tdiscriminate.
And that's why I think it's sotricky, because you won't even
know as a client that you are avictim of abuse, because you
don't look like that, you don'tfit the mold.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think that's exactly when wetalk about culture, when we talk
about the stereotypes that wecreate in regards to a niche,
right?
So when you were describingthat, Sibyl, I was thinking like
oh, I saw that in a movie, butit's not purple movies, right?
And unfortunately, sometimeswhen we go to training, when we
(10:04):
go to trainings, we continuewith that stereotype.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So I love that you're naming.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
No, it doesn't look like that because that's the
reality of the work.
When we work with thispopulation.
It will never look like thatand I love that you started with
.
A lot of times we're trying tomake sense of why are they doing
what they're doing?
And then the next question andtell me if I'm wrong goes into
but why they have not left, whyare they staying?
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yes, yes, yes, and that is right.
So if you are a therapist oryou're just like a human being,
don't ask that question.
Thank you, right, it is like alot of the trauma work that I do
(10:53):
with my clients in my practiceis around not the abuse that
happened from their partner.
It is about the abuse theyreceived when they reached out
for help, yeah, and from ourlarger system and from family
and friends who did this verymild victim blaming.
It's right, like from theoutside it seems really mild,
but it is.
It cuts deeper than my clientswho have had a gun held to their
face.
Yeah, it is worse that someonethey loved and cared about with
(11:17):
like a scowl is like why thefuck didn't you leave, like I
would have left the first time,right?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
it's really harmful.
So much shaming there, right,just with that statement.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yes, and it reinforces why women
traditionally women, but victimsdon't speak up and it takes
them so long.
Right, because that is the fearthat they're going to be met
with judgment where they'regoing to be met with.
Well, why didn't you?
Or I would have done itdifferently.
Or you know, when I was in myundergrad program, I worked at
(11:53):
our local domestic violenceshelter and one of the first
things I mean this was this wasa little bit ago, but like back
then, the statistic was it tookit.
It took a woman eight times tofully leave and not return to
that relationship.
You know, I can't imagine now,because back then we didn't have
social media, like we havesocial media now because I'm old
(12:15):
but I think that that's part ofit too is like we're being
exposed to all of these messagesthat can be so shaming that if
you do reach out heaven forbidto your loved ones, families and
friends or a professionalcounselor and are met with
victim blaming.
What are we?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
doing.
Yeah, it's horrifying Some ofthe things that I've heard from,
yes, professionals, and I thinksomething that we as and this
is actually I have like asubspecialty in my practice um,
is so we as a mental healthcommunity are like, oh, thank
(12:56):
God, they, they left, they leftthe relationship If they share
children with their partner.
There's no leaving it, reallythere is no leaving.
That post-separation abuse is adifferent kind of hell, is the
language of my clients, and thesystem not only allows but
(13:17):
supports it to happen.
Men find themselves as they havechildren.
They were never hit right,Because if there was that police
report that they could bring tocourt, sometimes, let's be real
, that actually doesn't matter.
But right in the criminal case,it's like, wow, you should have
(13:41):
no contact with this abusiveperson.
Here is an order of protection,they cannot come within 100
yards of you, they should nevercommunicate with you.
And then we show up in familycourt and they're like, oh,
actually you're going to need totalk every day about your child
and you're going to need toco-parent and make it just great
(14:02):
and we're not even going tolook at abuse.
That's happening.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Which is exhausting.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
As a therapist, it yes reading those documents and
and realizing that the systemwas never set up to support, in
this case, let's say the, thecaretaker who's taking care of
their children.
Yeah and um, it's just, oursystems are exhausting.
Can I say that out loud again?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yes, yes and right.
So I know, liliana, you workwith kids.
Maria, I don't know if you workwith kids or not.
Yes, and guess what there's?
The majority of childtherapists out there do not
accept these cases when theyknow that they are in family
court, and so these kids don'thave support, the protective
(14:56):
parents don't have support, andthen our family court system is
just the biggest dumpster firethat can be of all the biases
that could ever be there.
They're there, of all thebiases that could ever be there.
They're there.
And so you know, sometimes andthis sounds horrible it makes
sense for victims to not leave.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I have to share this piece, which is I have.
Everyone who knows about meknows that I take too many
trainings.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
That's where I spend my money.
That's okay, because this is mymoney.
Acknowledging is the first step,lilian.
I'm very proud of you, thankyou.
Second part is the besttraining I ever took was not
from mental health therapists.
(15:38):
We have an organization here inColorado that used to do this
trainings.
I'm kind of reaching out andsay, like, can you do this?
But maybe it's going to beusable.
I don't know, but the besttraining I ever took was from
Family Tree, which is anorganization that helps and
supports these families inregards to trainings, in regards
(16:00):
to housing, in regards to likeit's, all these things.
So, anyway, my training withthem went like this it was five
days training, by the way, thatat the end there was a role play
which I had to leave.
I was the victim.
I have so much money left in myaccount.
I had a child, I had a pet andthere was no hotel that will
(16:21):
take us.
I ran out of money and I had nochoice but to go back.
I never forgot that role playbecause I try, and everything
that I knew cognitively andeverything that I needed and
everything I knew emotionallytold me that I was going to have
to suck it up for the well ofmy child.
In that moment and in thatmoment I understood, I embody
(16:44):
what it was like to be in thatposition and no matter what I
knew, what I was going to haveto support, because I was so
alienated, I was not allowed tohave Work history, I was not
allowed to Like in that roleplay that I was like oh shit,
the system set me up so that Icould not escape.
(17:05):
Yep, I hated the training.
I cried so much After that rolerole play, but it was the best
training because they neverasked stupid questions and I
never created stereotypes.
Um, because I understood inthat moment what was that like
to be in that position yeah andright, it's like we are.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
We get inundated by messaging as well, right, not
just our clients.
And so we have this belief thatthere are these systems that
are set up to protect, like lawenforcement, family court, child
protection, right, the criminalcourt system.
(17:54):
All of these you know placesare meant to protect and have
the best interest of children.
Is their taught, is like theirslogan, right, that's in family
court, whereas it's it'sactually not true.
So if you are there and youwrite like I put call 911 on my
safety plans and there's moreconversation than that, what has
your experience been withpolice?
Yeah, right, because it honestly, and this is so heartbreaking,
(18:19):
but it depends on who shows upat your door Whether you as the
victim are going to get arrested, or whether the perpetrator is
going to be arrested, or whetheranyone's going to be arrested
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Can we add these two?
Sybil, Because in my experienceI've worked with people of
color.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
As soon as they see you, or if you have an accent,
or if all these things.
You are screwed.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yes, yes.
So it brings up a client that Iworked with.
It was a Black woman and so,yes, we're safety planning
because the risk factors werehorrific for homicide.
So if there's strangulation,they will say choking.
They're not going to saystrangulation.
So if they've been choked, theyneed a safety plan.
Yesterday, other than a firearmbeing used as a weapon during
(19:08):
an abusive incident,strangulation is the highest
predictor of homicide.
So, just so folks know thatwhen you're out there.
But it was a Black woman with aBlack partner, black male
partner who was pretty large,and Black sons in her home.
So, as we're creating a safetyplan and I'm like, hey, we, we
(19:32):
need to put, we're going to call911 on there, and she's like
never going to happen.
And I was like, and I'm superaware.
I am super aware because she'slike my partner might wind up
dead, my children might wind updead, I might wind up dead, I
don't know, because the fear isreal, it's valid, and so we need
(19:56):
to not just write like, yeah,this sounds horrible, but I'll
put it out there.
We need to have 911 on thatsafety plan to protect us.
Yes, that's why it is there.
It is protecting me as thetherapist that I did the thing
in my safety plan.
They may not call 911, and weneed to know why For their own
(20:17):
safety.
Yeah, we need to know why andwe need to put that out there.
Because they may not put thatout there, right, and they may
just nod their head and smileand put 911 on their safety plan
, but then they don't actuallyknow what to do because they're
not going to call 911.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Right, right, that's such a good point?
Yeah, and I think it's.
I think it is important thatyou know we we want these
systems in place to do what wewant them to do and to be
protective.
You know, I know here in ourcommunity it also can depend on
how many times 911 has beencalled to your house.
The response that you get whenthey get called out and who
(20:55):
calls, can make a difference.
Yeah, I'm wondering what else Imean.
I think the strangulationtidbit that you just dropped is
going to be brand newinformation for many of our
listeners, is going to be brandnew information for many of our
listeners.
But where should cliniciansstart so that we are not
(21:16):
perpetuating the damage, we'renot perpetuating the victim
shaming and blaming Other than?
I mean we'll list you or incontact information, but where
can someone start to get moreinformation and better
understanding?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And so there are like amazingagencies like Family Tree.
I work with Family Tree thatLiliana shared before.
They are fabulous and you arenot maybe in Jefferson County,
colorado, where Family Tree islocated, so you might want to
not use just Family Tree.
There is a website, it's calleddomesticsheltersorg.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So you can search your state, you can search your
county, city, and it willprovide you the agency in your
area.
But other than that, they andthey're not paying me to talk
about them, but they're awesome,they have a ton of resources,
they have amazing articles, theyhave webinars, they have free
(22:19):
resources that you can attendall the time, all the time, and
so they have.
They are partnered with.
I can't remember the agencyname, but it is a specific
organization that focuses onstrangulation.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And so, if you are interested in learning about
those risk factors, they havespecific webinars on that.
They have specific webinars onfamily court which, fyi, I got
to lead one of those Nice.
Which, fyi, I got to lead oneof those Nice.
But they have amazing resourceson that site and they will send
you.
The site will send you whereyou need to go.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I love that Beautiful .
So again, right.
So from the beginning we'retalking about there's a lot of
myths, like stereotypes, andfirst of all, can I go back, um,
and say we as therapists havethese fantasies, um, and I love
them because where the world isgonna be perfect, everything is
(23:19):
gonna be fair and just.
And then we go into trainingfor our master's program and
we're like, oh, my god, I'm soready to go change the world.
And then we start taking theseterms.
We're like I'm not gonna workwith that population thank you
for naming that table, which ismost of the therapists are like
I will not work with couplesbecause of this.
I will not work with childrenbecause of this beautiful.
(23:41):
That is the privilege.
Good for you to live in thatbubble.
The reality is that they comein, and part of this podcast is
how do we prepare you so that,one, you have awareness.
Two, you don't panic and thereare resources out there, and so
(24:03):
that we don't continue withthose messages that add to the
shame, that add to the guilt,that add to even the religion?
I never crossed my mind untilyou said it and that's not gonna
go away now, because I'm like,yeah, that was, religion is
being used in the big time inour society.
Because even when you said it,I was like holy cow.
(24:25):
That's why my grandma used totell me that's your cross, you
have to carry it right.
And that was like, oh, I cannotleave, because then god is
gonna be mad.
God is like sauna clothes,they're watching everywhere
every day and, um, family maynot be supported because then
(24:45):
you are leaving, you arebreaking those, those walls, and
then the system is not set upto help you, because the system
was not for women, by women.
It was set up by men, for men.
I was just reading an article inTexas.
What is suggested there inregards to marriages?
I will not go into it becausethis is not a political.
I was like holy cow.
People chill, they're goingback and they're using religion
(25:10):
in that perspective.
Yeah, and I was going to saysomething so inappropriate, but
I'm going to keep it.
But what you're talking abouttoday is all the therapists
listening out there one.
It is scary to work with thispopulation and you don't have to
work with them, but you do haveto have a list of referrals.
(25:32):
That is ethical practice foryou to have a list of referrals
to share out, or even resourcessuch as domestic sheltersorg.
Thank you for sharing that withus today.
But there's things that you cando in order for be prepared for
the what if?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, yeah, and when.
It's interesting.
You brought that up when I wasstarted to do trainings for
mental health professionalsbecause I struggled to find
referral sources when I was fullor my practice was full, and so
I would do these.
And this was before COVID, solive trainings, which, oh
hallelujah, I love it, like inperson, and when I would ask
(26:10):
people who were there justbecause I would do free
trainings, because I was likey'all need to know this.
And they're like but Sybil, Idon't work with domestic
violence.
And so I'd be like, well, howmany clients do you typically
see in a week?
And they're like, oh, I don'tknow, 20, 25, whatever it might
be.
I was like, if you see 20female clients in a week, five
of them are victims of domesticviolence or will be Two and a
(26:35):
half of them.
If they are all 20 men, two anda half of them will be a victim
of domestic violence or will be.
So you actually do work withthat.
But that may not be why they'recoming in, because they don't
know that they are being abused.
So they're coming in foranxiety, they're coming in for
(26:57):
postpartum depression, they'recoming in for these other
illnesses or ailments or mentalhealth issues.
But what's actually going on,or in addition to, is domestic
violence right?
Like, yeah, you're going to beanxious if someone you were
never right, they're talkingtrash about you, they're
isolating you from everyone youknow and there's a threat that
(27:18):
they're going to physically harmyou every day?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yep, I'd be pretty anxious too.
Yeah, anxiety seems like anormal reaction to that
situation.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Very normal reaction, right, and so they may be
coming in because they believethat there is something
inherently wrong with them,because that's what they've been
told over and, over and over bytheir partner.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And yet it's actually domestic violence.
That is what is going on, right?
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, because if they don't know and the clinician
doesn't know what to look for,then we're all dancing around it
, yeah, and very often when I'mdoing consultations with
clinicians are like, well, Idon't think he's abusive, but
he's an asshole.
With, clinicians are like, well, I don't think he's abusive,
but he's an asshole, and so it'sreally looking at like, okay,
(28:08):
so he might be just an asshole.
Yep, let's look at it.
But are there elements ofcoercion?
Right?
What does that look like?
Domestic violence has beendeemed a cult of one.
That is something that has beenkind of a metaphor or something
, because the things that workto build cults, that is the
exact same things that work tohave a successful and I air
(28:30):
quoted that domestic violencerelationship.
It's the same types of grooming, the same types of coercion
that allow people to become cultmembers as a victim of domestic
violence.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That is fascinating, and I mean duh right Like yes,
yes, of course, of course.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, but it's like we don't want to think
about that because we're likecults are so rare and that's so
weird.
And it like, right, it keeps tothink about that because we're
like cults are so rare andthat's so weird.
And it like, right, it keeps usfeeling safe that this isn't
happening.
And the cult of one andsometimes it's not just the one
right, because they'll gathertheir, their followers, to help
abuse and, to you know, keepthis person in line, which might
(29:16):
be, you know, faith-based, likemembers of their religion, or
even their faith leader, or theother moms at the school at the
pickup lines.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, they may use all these different methods to
keep the person stuck andisolated, so they can't leave
and what I tend to see most andtell me if you have seen it too
in your practice, which is mostpeople have a hard time
separating like profession andthen how they show up at home.
(29:49):
So he's a good police officer.
There's no way he's a goodteacher.
There's.
He's a good coach.
There's no way.
You're yes, which I'm like areyou kidding me?
You cannot separate.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Someone can have a profession and be good at it,
and they can suck at home yeahand even and this is like
grosser to me, probably becauseof who I work with but like, but
he's a good dad.
Yeah, but no, but he's a gooddad.
He's ab, like, but he's a gooddad.
Yeah, but no, but he's a gooddad.
He's abusing her, but he's agood dad.
Yeah, in my true of.
(30:26):
And this is not just like myvalue system, this is what I see
every day.
If it is someone who is abusingthe other parent of the child,
they cannot be what I wouldconsider a good parent, because
they are incapable, for the mostpart, of unconditional care and
(30:49):
love.
Love will always have stringsattached.
It doesn't mean that they willalways be unsafe to the child,
but they are not a good parent.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
And so that is really really hard to kind of wrap
your head around and like whenwe?
And it'll go super dark, superdark.
So if we are looking at thehomicide cases we've had,
unfortunately, unfortunately alot of recent ones the media
portrayals will be family mankilled, family of five.
(31:23):
You're like that's a fuckingfamily man, what are you talking
about?
Or like we could have neverknown that he would do murder,
suicide, his ex, his ex-partner,his child, and you're like,
excuse me, actually everypredictor was present, everybody
(31:44):
, like they were all there, theywere there right.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And so it's like fantasy of relationships and how
, as a society, we fight so hardto maintain comfort.
Do not show me that, becausethis is my bubble and I want to
stay here.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yep, yes.
And so for us doing theclinical work, we actually need
to know the ugly.
We need to take care ofourselves knowing the ugly.
We don't necessarily have toshare all of the ugly with our
clients it is.
(32:28):
It is for us to bewell-informed so that we can
help our clients not be in thenews of like that and they
already know some of it.
We don't.
It's not our job to rub salt intheir wound, be like oh, do you
know?
Family court, you're likelygoing to lose your kids if you
bring up domestic violence.
Did you know that?
No, no, we need to know thatwe're going to support them in
(32:49):
very different ways than sharingall the scary.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Beautiful.
Oh my God.
I see Maria like nodding,taking out.
She's like she's taking it in.
She's like I'm ready for moreof this.
Sibyl, what is one thing thatyou want our audience to take
from this episode?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
haven't talked about it specifically but the one
thing as a mental healthprovider, that if you do this or
know this, you will help yourperson.
It is not ethical for us toreplicate the power and control
dynamic of the abusiverelationship.
And so if we see them as likethese victims, and they're
broken and they can't makedecisions, and we try to make
(33:43):
decisions for them, we arereplicating that power and
control dynamic.
So, yes, it is hard to sit andhear that they are not going to
leave.
They're going back.
You're like, oh gosh, likethey're going to like it's going
to continue.
They're going back.
You're like, oh gosh, likethey're going to like it's going
to continue.
They're going to keep gettingabused.
How can I keep doing this work?
How can I show up?
It is their choice to stay ornot to stay.
(34:07):
It is their, their experts ontheir experience.
They are the experts on theirexperience.
And so, even while I'm anexpert on domestic violence and
coercive control, what it lookslike, they know and this sounds
backwards they know how to staysafe enough.
Yeah, and we have to trust thatthey can stay safe enough, and
(34:31):
so we just can't make thosechoices for them.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh, beautiful, right.
So please, for all of you whoare are listening, it's not our
job to project.
It's not our job to beresentful because they know how
to survive.
Yeah, our job is just to sitwith them.
It's just to empower them andsupport them how it works for
(34:56):
them, not for you and youragenda as a therapist.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Just very similar to our play therapy listeners,
right Like we don't do for, weempower them to do the best for
themselves, which isn't may notalways be what we would choose
for them, but it's not ourchoice to make.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, yeah and right the.
The thing that is stripped froma victim of domestic violence
is their sense of autonomy andsense of self.
And so if they get one placewhere they get to make choices
and try that on again and figureout who they are, that is,
(35:35):
that's my job is to be thatplace for them and that safe
person for them.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, beautiful, incredible.
Oh, sibyl, thank you so muchfor being here with us today and
for sharing your knowledge withour audience, audience.
Just so you know, we're goingto include again, like we do in
other podcasts, Sibylinformation.
Just know that I will includethe name of her podcast.
This is a podcast that you wantto go listen to so that you can
(36:02):
learn more about it and thenyou can reach out to civil for
training opportunities, forconsultation opportunities.
Please know, as she shared withus some aesthetics, which is
you are working with thispopulation.
You just do not know what tolook for, and that's okay.
Our training was not set up forthat, and when I mean our
(36:23):
training is our master's program, because they were just giving
us so much information inregards to models.
Now it's our responsibility togo and get trained to show up
for our clients.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, incredible, sybil.
Thank you so much for beinghere thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
It's like the louder I can shout it from the rooftops
, the more people will be helpedyeah and the more therapists
will not feel scared out oftheir freaking minds doing the
work I mean, you can be scared,just don't pee in your pants,
okay right thank you, thank youlisteners, until next time.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Till then,
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