October 23, 2025 • 44 mins
Erika brings Dungeons & Dragons into therapy sessions, creating transformative healing experiences for clients through role-playing games and character development.
• Using D&D with clients to build characters and create new therapy modalities
• Personal journey with D&D helping develop real-world skills like confrontation
• Client's story of choosing friendship over combat reveals therapeutic needs
• Facing resistance from traditional play therapy circles despite proven effectiveness
• Creating accessible D&D sand tray therapy tools for therapists with no gaming experience
• Challenging therapy systems that reject innovation they don't understand
• Advocating for evolution in play therapy to meet clients where they are
Try incorporating elements of role-playing games into your work with clients. Consider how games provide narrative frameworks that enable clients to express their needs and process emotions in ways that traditional therapy might not reach.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maria (00:02):
Welcome back listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm so excited.
Today I have my lovely co-hostwith me.
Liliana (00:13):
I thought that you were going to talk about Erica,
right?
And I was like, oh my God, metoo.
I'm here, liliana Bela.
I am the beautiful co-host, asMaria introduced me, and we're
here with a special guest.
Erica, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Erika (00:31):
I'm Erica and I'm a big fat nerd and I feel like that
social worker and a registeredplay therapist supervisor and
advanced certified in Adlerianplay therapy.
(00:51):
Wow, and and yeah, and I'm abig geek and like I love that
about myself and I embrace itand yeah, and what's not to
embrace?
Liliana (01:08):
Excuse me, I think that's the best credential right
.
Yes, so, erica, what are wetalking about this morning?
What are we learning from youthis morning?
Erika (01:20):
Well, I think one thing unique that I do and not that
I'm the only one that does it,because I know I'm not but I of
like Dungeons and Dragons withclients, whether that's building
(01:51):
a character and seeing, like,okay, what can we get out of
this character, how can we usethis character?
Or, you know, creating a wholenew modality to experience
therapy through Dungeons andDragons.
You know it's I just I love thegame.
I kind of like I live my lifein the game.
(02:15):
I think in terms of Dungeonsand Dragons.
A lot of times it's very weirdfor me at like I'll be like
thinking about my or goingthrough my day and something
will happen.
I'm like I failed a dex checkright there or something, and
like I just I think in Dungeonsand Dragons and so when I can
(02:38):
incorporate it into things, Iget really excited.
Liliana (02:42):
I'm excited just seeing your faces.
You're describing this.
Maria (02:47):
I love it.
So, Liliana, do you have anyexperience with D&D Dungeons
Dragons?
I don't Okay.
Liliana (02:54):
I'm a virgin in this topic, okay.
Maria (02:57):
I know.
Liliana (02:58):
Erica's like.
Maria (02:59):
I'll take you here.
We'll take good care of you,liliana.
Thank you, because I want toshare, because I also one of the
things that I I mean, I adoreerica.
This is not a surprise toanybody, I hope, um, but erica
is one idol for me.
Who?
Because when I, when I startedmy dungeon dragons journey, it
(03:22):
was high school, so it was along time ago.
I know, high school, so it wasa long time ago.
I know I look pretty, but itwas a long time ago.
It was in the time where, youknow, dungeons and Dragons was
not really popular.
It was the outcast group.
I was allowed to play sometimes,but my character was dictated
by the group because I was theonly female right Like, females
(03:44):
were still not really themajority of players not the
majority of players, I don'tthink but we were not common
players and when we were, wewere helpers or healers and that
was our role.
My experience is like that's ifyou want to play, that's what
you have to do.
So it wasn't until much laterin my adult life that I started
like tiptoeing back into it,because that experience was just
(04:06):
so rough.
And Erica is someone who justembodies D&D and being a geek
and being a nerd and it justradiates from her in a way that
I think is it's so therapeuticand healing to be around that
when she was like, oh yeah, I dothis stuff in my practice, I
was like, of course you do, ofcourse you do.
(04:28):
I couldn't imagine you doingtherapy in any other way, and I
have to recognize that that'snot always easy.
Being a geek, being a nerd,doing D&D and alternative quote
unquote, alternative things intherapy sessions is not still
widely accepted or an easy placeto be.
Liliana (04:52):
I think I love that right, which is how associations
or how our field.
Let's start with our field.
It's not ready for alternativetherapy.
They keep thinking of this isthe only way to do therapy, as
if we're all the same, have thesame needs, have the same gender
(05:14):
, have the same abilities ordisabilities, have the same
barriers.
This idea that this model workswith everyone and for everyone
is just a fantasy.
Yes, right.
So I love that you're usingeither the images that you bring
(05:35):
in, the language that you'rebringing in, because I assume
I'm making the assumption thatclients feel connected to this
because they're integratingconstantly as they're working,
and then you're bringing this.
It's this beautiful integrationthat I'm picturing that is
happening for them.
Erika (05:53):
Yes, and that's kind of how it started for me, like how
I decided like, hey, this hasgot some therapeutic value.
Yeah, um, I was playing in myown campaign.
So like I didn't start playingD&D until 2016.
I had never heard of it, like Ididn't know anything about it,
(06:17):
and one of my husband's umfriends from like growing up,
who he's still connected to,said, hey, hey, do you guys want
to play D&D?
And I was like what?
I have no idea what this is.
And so he, he told us about it.
I was like, yeah, we can giveit a try.
And so we started our campaigntwo weeks after Alan Rickman
(06:38):
died.
And the reason that's importantwas because, like that was very
impactful for me, was becauselike that was very impactful for
me.
And so, like my character, hername was Alana and the town that
she grew up in was Rickmana andeverything about her was tied
to him somehow, and it ended upbeing just this whole thing.
(07:00):
But I would have to look backat my notes and my my notebook.
So our campaign that we played,our story that we played, was
five and a half years long.
So I got to, I got to embodythis character fairly
consistently every other weekend, for I mean, we usually started
(07:24):
about one o'clock in theafternoon and we would play
sometimes until midnight.
Yeah, so every other weekend Igot to step into this person.
Liliana (07:34):
Yeah.
Erika (07:35):
Every for about five and a half years, and I was our note
taker.
So, like, my binder is like,you know what is that?
About three inches is like that.
You know what is that aboutthree inches like it's, it's
pretty big.
Um, so I would say, probably acouple of years, two to three
years into it, I had thisexperience where I knew this
(08:00):
confrontation between mycharacter and another character
was going to happen.
And confrontation is not, isnot Erica's strong suit.
Yeah, alana, alana can doconfrontation though, um, when
she has to.
And this was this was going tobe one that needed to happen and
it was going to happen.
And so in between the two weeks, I was like playing through
(08:22):
these scenarios in my head.
I'm like, okay, well, if thisother character says this, then
Alana can say this, and if thecharacter says this, then Alana
can say this.
And I practiced and practicedin my head for two weeks and
then it happened.
And it happened, like thescenarios that I played out
happened.
(08:43):
And on the way home that was oneof our later sessions and I
remember turning to my husbandand I was like, holy shit, I did
that, I did that and I wasshaking the whole time, yeah,
and my heart was beating so fast, like I remember this and it
was beating so hard.
But I remember thinking like Idid that, yeah, and it probably
(09:09):
took me at least another year toto see some other changes in me
and I was like, yeah, there'sgotta be a way to bring this
into therapy.
I love that.
And so I started doing someresearch, which there's not
there.
There's more now, yeah, there'smore on the mental health side
(09:32):
than there was on the playtherapy side, and really there
still is not much on the playtherapy side which baffles the
crap out of me because it's agame.
It's a game.
Yeah, pulls the crap out of mebecause it's a game.
It's a game, yeah, that's I.
You know there are some peopledoing some work in grad school.
(09:52):
That is we're trying to.
We're trying to remedy that, um, and so I just I started
incorporating it slowly, I will,in my biggest barrier, slowly,
I well, in my biggest barrier,and I think for especially for
(10:13):
women, is being the DM, likebeing the storyteller there,
because it's a lot like, it's alot of pressure, yeah, it is so
much pressure and so like to bethe storyteller, to be the one
who had who has to like, feellike you have all the answers
and have everything planned outand know, you know, almost be
like you have to be on all thetime and once number one.
(10:34):
Once I got over that, it's okayif I pause and have to look
something up like I can be humanand say I need a second yeah,
that helped.
That helped.
But I also ran um uh, acampaign for my friends to kind
of get my my feet under me, andthen I was able to take it into
(10:55):
the therapy.
Maria (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, well, you have practicing and you know,
and we.
I believe that Liliana and Iboth, when we, when we teach and
do trainings on whatever topic,we always incorporate.
Now, you have to do it now,right now, you're going to do it
and practice it.
Right, and that's what you weredoing.
You were needing to practice itand embody it before you bring
it into the therapy room.
I I can't tell you how, like,when I look back at the journey
(11:23):
of this and even just your story, it's like it's baffling to me
that it took us so long to putthese two forces together.
Right, because it is a game,but, more importantly, it's
narrative therapy.
There you go, thank you.
D&d is narrative therapy and Iknow there isn't like a
sanctioned narrative playtherapy thing, you know, even
(11:43):
though it's one of those.
Liliana (11:46):
But let's pause.
First of all, all for all ofyou who are like this is not
play therapy, screw you.
Tell me and show mehistorically what was play
therapy, um, then we can have aconversation about it.
So, truly, yes, you know.
Back off, however, when youwere talking, erica, and coming
back to you, maria, which Iwrote oh, you're doing exposure
(12:06):
therapy, you're doing narrativetherapy.
That's what I wrote right away,like what the hell are you?
What are they talking about?
Erika (12:12):
this is what you're doing absolutely yeah, and the the
thing that I have learned,especially with my clients, is
they will take it, oh yeah, theywill take it where they need it
.
Even if I have and not thatthis has ever happened before I
(12:36):
will have this, this lovelylittle battle, planned out, and
it never happens because myclient needs to do something
else.
They need to make friends withthis spider, isn't that?
Maria (12:51):
therapy, though.
Yeah, we could have the bestplan for a session and the
client comes in and takes itwhere they need to go.
Erika (12:58):
Yes, and you like, as you know, as a therapist, dm, I
need to have the wherewithal,the insight to know when I need
to let the client.
You know, I had a client who Ihad these, these three giant
(13:19):
spiders set up for him to fighthis character.
To fight he's like can I do ananimal handling check?
And so an animal handling checkis like can I see if I can get
close to this spider or animal,whatever, but in this case it
was a spider Can I get see if Ican get close to the spider and
either pet it or, you know, tryand make friends?
(13:41):
Like wanted to get close to it?
Yeah, I was like you can, cantry.
So he rolls the dice and addssome modifiers and it I had a
number in my mind and failed.
He wanted to do it again and itfailed again.
And then he wanted to do it athird time and I was like okay,
this is important, this isimportant to this kid, that this
(14:03):
six.
Yeah, I was like okay, this isimportant, this is important to
this kid, that this six.
I was like, thankfully, rolledhigh the next time.
I was like okay, you succeed.
What do you want to do now?
Liliana (14:11):
Yeah.
Erika (14:12):
He's like I want to make friends with the spider, so then
I get rid of the other spiders.
I'm like, okay, this is.
This is not happening.
These other spiders were notfighting spiders today.
Liliana (14:23):
Yeah.
Erika (14:25):
And so we finished doing what we did in the cave and he
comes out of the cave andthere's another.
There's another character likethat I was playing and he raises
his hands.
So I was doing teletherapy withthis client.
He raises his hands on theother side of the screen and
says I made a friend.
Oh, and I, like this kid didnot need to fight freaking
(14:46):
spiders today.
This kid needed to make afriend and so that I mean I had
this whole plan and, like we doin there in any other, this kid
took it where he needed it to goand it was beautiful and that
spider stayed with him for theentire time oh I love this, I
(15:07):
love it.
Maria (15:08):
And if you I mean if you've heard any of our talks or
if you've seen me inpresentation, you know like um
big nerd, big nerd, I own it,wear my crown proudly, erica,
why?
I mean we could go into likethe whole history of dnd, but we
don't have time for that.
Like the satanic panic, right.
We could go into like the wholehistory of D&D, but we don't
have time for that.
Like the Santana Panic, right.
We could go into all of that.
(15:29):
That's like six episodes initself.
But I'm curious your experiencewith other professionals, other
groups of therapists, othertherapists in general, when you
try to share that this is whatyou do in sessions, when you're
not speaking to other geektherapists is that accepted and
(15:50):
how does that go?
Erika (15:53):
it depends um, some um, in some places, um, they're very
accepting of us.
So, like, um, I have, I have afriend that I I often present
with and him and I, um, it'svery interesting because
(16:17):
typically, if it's not a playtherapy specific organization or
conference, they're like yes,like gimme, gimme, gimme.
Yeah, we have really struggledto.
So him and I together, andmyself, just like on my own,
(16:39):
have really struggled to kind ofbreak into the play therapy
world with this idea of usingD&D, which I find so it baffles
me, it really really baffles me.
Yeah, and you know, I'm stillreally trying to figure out why,
(17:02):
excuse me and some of the youknow, if it's not a geek play
therapy thing.
So of course, that's likethat's different, yeah, play
(17:24):
therapy.
So those two things obviouslyare going to go together.
But you know, some of the playtherapy things I have been able
to kind of get my foot in thedoor has been because of other
people, like they've it.
It hasn't even been me puttingmy, my name into the basket.
It's been them saying, hey, youneed to come do this thing, and
(17:45):
I say, okay, yeah, um, and I'mnot, I don't know, you know, and
it's it's so interesting againto me like last year at the uh,
the play therapy conference,like the big play therapy
conference.
I was going up the escalator andI have these D and D skirts
(18:07):
that I got at comic-con from thelegging lass.
Oh, she's amazing.
I freaking love her stuff and Ispent so much money there.
Um, so I was wearing one of myD and D skirts and Paris
Goodyear Brown happened to be onthe escalator behind me and
she's like I really like yourskirt.
I was like, thank you, I, youknow I really love D&D.
(18:30):
And she said my son juststarted playing and he really
enjoys it.
And I was like, has he like,has he gotten anything out of it
yet?
And she's like, you know, Ithink he maybe has.
I can see how it can be reallytherapeutic and I was like huh,
what a wild concept, wildconcept, and I kind of wanted to
(18:54):
say can you make a publicservice announcement about that,
because I feel like peoplewould listen to you.
Liliana (19:01):
People don't know me, like right yet, but, but I but I
think, no, let's, let, can.
I'm gonna name the elephant inthe room, because why not?
Is it harold?
Are we naming it?
Yes, I love that, but I think,like you're naming things that
still have not been named in ourfield, specifically in play
(19:23):
therapy.
One is that we still have theold timers I'm not even calling
the originals anymore the oldtimers who are adhering to.
This is what we're familiar,this is what we're comfortable.
Anything else it's rejected.
So that's one part Two, thatour field, specifically the
(19:45):
association, it's about who dothey like and therefore they'll
be invited.
So this idea like, oh, you gothrough this process, they're
going to bend me, they're likethat's okay.
But like, submit your proposalBullshit.
But like so major proposalbullshit.
(20:08):
There is the process of who dowe like, who we can mold, who we
, and it's like the we whichwe're not included.
So therefore, yes, you needsomeone to hold the door for you
so that you can come in, butit's still they can hold the
door.
But if they're not advocating,if they're not doing public
(20:30):
announcements, if they're notchanging that old trajectory,
nothing will change.
Patterns will continue, becausethat what systems were set up
to hold these barriers.
Maria (20:44):
I'm going to go quiet.
I feel like part of it is thatthey reject what they don't
understand, and this is true formany, many systems, many, many
organizations, right, if?
Liliana (20:59):
they do not understand it, or it?
Maria (21:00):
does not immediately spark an interest for them, then
it's dismissed.
And in when we talk about playtherapy specifically, I feel
like that boggles my mind evenmore right, because play therapy
harps on.
Play is the language the childgets to lead.
Yes your child is.
This is the same.
I think digital play therapy isin a similar vein, but they've
(21:21):
gotten much farther than geekplay therapy has so far.
But I think it's like well, Idon't play D&D, I don't like
that type of gaming.
I don't game, I don't do.
Well, we can have a wholepodcast on play therapy.
It's not playing.
I think that's part of it is.
I don't understand it.
(21:41):
It's not something I enjoy.
So therefore, it is rejectedand is invalid.
There you go.
I'm going to pause, erica.
What do you want to say?
Erika (21:52):
No, I agree, and I think that it's so frustrating because
, you know, I even looked at andI brought this up to an
individual who I trust withinthe association with the
conference and how it'sfrustrating that I see the exact
(22:15):
, exact word for word, exactsame presentations year after
year.
And, yes, I, I fully understandthat there are certain things
that like that we that need tobe at the conference, yes, we
foundations are important.
Yes, the probation is importantwe need foundation stuff, we
(22:36):
need ethics stuff.
Yes, we do, and there should bea the bulk of it being how are
we moving our field forward?
Yeah, what are what are wedoing that's new and innovative?
What are we doing?
You know just what are we doingthat's new?
Yeah, because you know when Igo, you know, this year I I'm
(23:01):
like I have two full days whereI'm not doing anything because
there was nothing that sparkedmy interest.
Yes, yeah, and so I'm actuallythose two days I'm taking my D&D
stuff and I'm like who wants todo some one shots?
Maria (23:19):
Who wants to play?
Liliana (23:21):
Beautiful.
Erika (23:22):
Yeah, some one shots.
Who wants to play beautiful?
Yeah, because you know I'm notgoing to spend money on
something that does not spark myinterest and that I'm not
interested that I don't need.
Maria (23:31):
Yeah, I love that, I love that and I do.
I mean, I want to kind of alsocircle back to this idea that
you are being pulled into spaces, because I think that's a very
common first experience.
And you know, and I think youknow, Mrs, you're going to hear
(23:53):
this audio.
You won't see the video, butyou'll see Erica's picture.
Erica, you pass as a white woman, and so as do I, and I think we
get invitations to tables basedon that.
Sometimes you know and I know Iknow you well enough that I
feel like I can say that you andI both take that privilege and
(24:17):
we use it to jam our foot in thedoor and hold it open for the
people who actually need to beat the table.
Yes, right, you and I have lotsto contribute, but we're not
the voices that need to be atthese tables.
90% of the time, we're the onesthat get the invitation, but I
know I use my invitation to holdmy hand out and pull the voice
(24:37):
that needs to be there with me.
Whether they like it or not,they need the association.
Not liking it?
Yeah, well, I mean, we have, wehave a little bit of time.
We can't do this.
We could do this for hours, butwhy, why?
Why are we not?
Why are we not inviting theright people to the table?
(24:59):
Why is it, when there's a newidea, that feels dangerous and
scary instead of being curious?
Liliana (25:08):
which.
Maria (25:08):
I feel like the stance for play therapists is a natural
curiosity, yeah.
Liliana (25:17):
That was a big one, Erica.
Maria (25:18):
I know it was a big question.
Erika (25:20):
I think it comes back to the not.
I think it comes back to thenot To.
I think it's a couple of things.
I think it comes back, numberone, to the not understanding,
to the not to the notunderstanding what things are.
And also, I think it comes tonot wanting to rock the boat.
(25:43):
Yeah, because there are so manythings going on in our country
right now, in our country numberone In our world.
Number two Absolutely there are.
(26:12):
I think that there are peoplewho I'm deliberately choosing my
words carefully because forlots of reasons but I think that
there are people in power whoare letting certain things get
in the way of the bigger pictureand are doing more harm than
(26:34):
good.
Yes, and instead of kind oftaking a step back and saying,
hey, maybe, maybe, maybe, Ieither need to step aside and
let someone who backspace just alittle bit.
(26:57):
Um, I read this book, I was, Iwas, uh, I don't know, given
this book is a homework to readand it's called liminal thinking
.
I can not remember the authorat the by the, at like right now
, um, but it was brilliant andwhat it did for me.
(27:19):
I don't really, honestly, knowthat I learned anything
differently from it, but what itdid for me was it gave me words
to describe the way that Ithink.
Yeah, and so in this book hetalked about how people have
blind spots and so kind of how Iconceptualize this is like we
(27:41):
all kind of live in our ownlittle.
There are individuals who havelike see-through snow globes and
they can see.
They can see the things goingon around them.
They might have a black spothere and there, that those are
(28:01):
their blind spots or those arethe spots that they are
intentionally not willing to see.
So, like I definitely have ahave a few spots where I'm like
I am not going to look at thatright now, I am not willing to
listen to your perspective onthis right now, because I am so
(28:28):
entrenched in my own and Ibelieve that if I open this
blind spot like yours is goingto do harm to mine.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely believe thatthere are a handful of people,
(28:50):
maybe maybe lots of people, whohave mostly black snow globes
with only little pinpricks thatthey can see out of.
Yeah, and I sometimes feel likethose are the people who get put
in charge of things.
Yeah, and I think that issometimes why we're not invited
(29:17):
to the table.
Yeah, community invited to thetable.
Because it's different andbecause it's not understood and
because it's not traditional.
Right, when that's kind ofbullshit, because it is, yes,
(29:44):
we're just calling it somethingdifferent, like we're owning the
geekness of it.
We're owning all of that andwe're banding together,
demanding to be seen instead oftrying to fit in with everyone
else.
Maria (30:02):
I love that analogy.
It gives so much grace becauseI can often get rooted into this
.
Because I can often get rootedinto this, they're actively
(30:27):
choosing to reject this, whichmay be know how to fix this.
You're going to take the peopleand you're going to make them
play a campaign with you.
They have the experience ofwhat D&D, because I think that's
part of it is that they'rerejecting it without trying it,
without knowing what it is.
(30:47):
They've based it on whateverconcept they have.
When they hear the word D&D,which is still like for some,
it's you know, it's Satan panic,it's dirty teenage boys in
basements, it's you know what Imean.
And I mean my invitation nowwould be come play, come play,
play, play a one shot shot withErica and then make a decision
(31:12):
Right.
At least become informed beforeyou make a decision that's so
harmful to so many.
Liliana (31:21):
Well, and it's an idea right, because we're talking
about a generation, everyonewho's in power, which is the
generation that grew up with.
You play outside, you play withgame boards, you like nature
all of that is great, but thisis how you play.
So the idea of playingdigitally, like in a game, and
now you've seen like theseactual, tangible things that
(31:44):
they perceive like that's theonly way.
Because of that, they rejectanything else, because of their
template.
The invitation that you'redoing is like the world is
evolving and as we are evolving,we do not want to be left
behind.
The question is how do we adaptto what is happening and invite
(32:06):
others, and how do we integrateethically from the lens of
exposure and narrative therapy,and integrate this to help the
generation that is doing this,versus rejecting and then
becoming outdated, which is thefear that they have.
That's why they hold on topower to be outdated, and that's
(32:30):
exactly what they're working sohard for, right?
So I love even when you saidlike oh, they're morons, I'll
call them out for you.
And because they only hang outwith the same people, read the
same shit, do the same over andover again, like that's why
there's no expansion, there's nolearning, there's no curiosity.
(32:53):
I'll do it for you.
I'll take that for you.
Maria (32:56):
Well, we've talked, we've named it before, liliana that
often people in those positionsof power either have never done
clinical work so they don'tthey're making decisions on work
that they don't do, or it'sbeen a long time since they've
done clinical work and they'renot familiar with the landscape
of what we're doing and how ourclients are presenting today.
Liliana (33:18):
Or let's name the third one, which is the holding to
patriarchy principles.
So that's the third one.
Erika (33:27):
Well, and that's kind of you know, the, the, the bridge.
Yeah, is it okay if I talkabout the, the Sanjay thing that
I Go for it?
Yeah, okay.
So I last year at the Kansasplay therapy conference, Last
year at the Kansas Play TherapyConference, sophia Ansari was
(33:50):
our speaker and the first dayshe did superheroes, she did her
superhero training, which I had.
Actually that was the first timeI had ever met Sophia in person
.
I met her for the first timeever during COVID, virtually and
(34:12):
did the super superherotraining.
So it was fun to have likenumber one, get to finally meet
her in person and then get to dothat in person.
And then the second day she didsand tray.
Um, and her and I got to bereally good friends from that
sand, from that virtual training, until I mean now, but anyway,
um, so during the sand traytraining she, in front of you
know the whole conference, sheturns to me.
(34:35):
She's like Erica, you shouldfigure out how to put Dungeons
and Dragons in the sand tray,and then she keeps going on and
she keeps, like you know, doingher thing.
Just a little nugget of geniusdropped in your lap, yeah of
genius dropped in your lap, yeah, so it took me about a year to
(34:57):
to put this idea together, tofigure out, okay, how can?
Because it wouldn't leave.
It would not leave my brain.
Yep, Like, I'm going to figureout how to freaking do this
because I think that's brilliantnumber one, and you know, I
know that there are people outthere who they like, actually do
campaigns in this end, which Ithink is cool.
(35:18):
But I wanted this to bedifferent.
I wanted this to be a lot moresimplified, so what I did is it
took me about a year to figureout okay, how can this be
translatable to every singleplay?
therapist's office oh wow, what,what all elements can I take
(35:40):
from traditional dungeons anddragons and put into this thing?
And then how in the hell am Igoing to teach it, like to make
sense, to people who have neverplayed?
Yeah, and so I did that.
I did it, yeah, and there's, um, I have an amazing, amazing
(36:06):
friend who is like spatiallyorganized I guess I don't know
if that's the best way to saythat, but like I struggle to see
things on paper and so, like Idrew out like the character
sheet on a piece of graph paperand that's, that's legit, what I
(36:29):
was going to use and just typethings out in outline format, in
word, and I was showing it toher one day.
Um, cause I know that shereally loves, and she's like
Erica, do you want me to makethat pretty for you?
And I was like, can you do that?
And she's like, yeah, Iactually enjoy doing that.
(36:52):
And I was like that's amazing.
So she did, and it's beautiful,it is so beautiful.
And so I'm oh gosh, a monthfrom tomorrow, I'm doing my very
first training on like teachinghow to do this.
(37:14):
I ran so before I even did anyof that, I, my, my child is 15.
Um, and I took them to myoffice.
I was like okay, can you, canyou just help me run through
this, like I want to make surethat it works as good in
practice as it does in my brain,cause sometimes things don't
work as well in practice as theydo in my brain.
(37:35):
And after we were done this isthe best compliment I probably
will ever get in my life aboutthis my child said to me mom,
you're a really good DM to memom, you're a really good DM and
I was like thank you, baby.
Liliana (37:58):
Yeah, that is a badge of honor.
I will frame that.
Maria (38:03):
Ask his signature because we don't get those comments
from our children, Erica.
I want to just highlight andbecause I know Liliana is going
to give me the signal that weneed to wrap up, I know this.
I just want to highlight thatwe've been able to talk through
the sense of rejection, thisdismissive downplay, no, no, no,
you're not welcome.
This is not okay.
(38:23):
And you have doubled down andbasically said F you.
I have found a way to make thisin a way that you can't argue
with this.
You can't argue with this,because on paper and in practice
, this works and that you'veused foundational, you've used
all the boxes that they want youto check, but you not only were
(38:46):
like this works and I want tokeep doing this.
You have doubled down and arenow creating spaces for other
therapists to feel empowered andeducated and trained enough to
do the same thing for theirclients.
Erika (38:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and that's why that'slike that was the goal with this
.
I'm like, ok, so you know iskind of like, how can I get more
people into this?
And like, how can I get like astepping stone in between into
this?
And like how can I get like astepping stone in between?
I have no idea what the hellI'm doing with this to.
Okay, I want to learn more.
Yeah, because it there is a lotlike there's a lot a lot
(39:20):
there's a lot and I'm like okay,what you know, can this be an
in-between?
and I think that it's.
Can this be an in-between?
And I think that it's simpleenough.
I think it's simple.
I'm hoping.
I tried to make it as simple aspossible.
I love that and I really,really think it is.
Maria (39:42):
But you've made it bite-sized.
I mean you have to.
Erika (39:48):
Yes, I have made it super , super bite-sized, um, and I
don't know, I think it's, I feellike I, I feel like it's
something.
I feel like it's something thatcan be really useful for people
and that that therapists, whohave no idea what Dungeons and
Dragons is, that they they'relike oh, this is, this is really
cool, this is very cool.
Liliana (40:10):
So you said a month for now, tell me what day, because
I'm gonna go, as I, as, as Ishare with all of you at the
beginning, I'm a virgin in this.
I'll go to your training.
Um, it's.
Erika (40:18):
April or not April Jesus.
I was like wait a minute,august 8th, um, and it'll be.
It'll be, uh, virtually, andthe what I think is going to be
really cool is my, my sweetchild, oh crap.
Maria (40:37):
Just had a realization happen.
Erika (40:41):
Okay, it may not be my sweet child, because I just
realized my parents wanted my.
They, my parents, take all thegrandbabies for a few days out
of the summer to have, um.
My maiden name is jones, sothey have jones camp, nice, um,
and it's during that time.
So I will find, I'm going tofind another kid.
(41:04):
It was going to be my kid, um,now I don't think it could be my
kid because my kid's going topick Jones Camp over.
But I'm going to have someonethere to do like a demonstration
because I want people to seethis in practice and to see me
fumble, because I'm going tofumble, it's beautiful.
Maria (41:25):
It's realistic.
And this is just the firstoffering.
So if this doesn't get posteduntil after and you feel like
you've missed out.
You haven't.
You haven't Just follow Erica.
We'll include her socials andcatch her on the next one,
because, erica, what a gift, yes, oh my gosh, what a gift.
I mean, we've converted Liliana.
It's going to happen.
(41:48):
It's going to happen it's gonnahappen.
Liliana (41:56):
It's gonna happen.
So please, uh, come back andtalk to us more about this,
because we do need you, we doneed.
I mean, that was the wholepurpose of the conversation
between maria and I,specifically with the podcast,
which is, how do we keep uminviting others so they can come
and share their gifts?
Because play therapy is notjust one model and play therapy
is more than one way.
If we truly are curious and wetruly believe that we have to
(42:19):
allow the children to lead, thenthat means that we continuously
have to be adapting to whatkids are doing and exposed to,
and playing and learning.
So.
So it's up to us to do itdifferently.
So thank you for being a voice,for being a light and showing
us how to.
Maria (42:38):
Erica, thank you so much.
You are truly I mean, I feelhonored and blessed to have you
in my life, both personally andprofessionally.
But what a gift you are, and Ihope that you do come back,
maybe even after your firsttraining, so we can see how it
goes and what you need insupport, because this is not the
end.
This is simply the beginningfor you, and I'm, I'm excited
(43:01):
for this journey.
I really, really am, yes, thank, you.
Erika (43:05):
I'm excited too.
I appreciate it.
Maria (43:07):
Well, thanks for being here, Erica.
Thank you Until next time, guys.
Welcome back listeners to another episode of a Heroes
Welcome podcast.
I'm so excited.
Today I have my lovely co-hostwith me.
Liliana (00:13):
I thought that you were going to talk about Erica,
right?
And I was like, oh my God, metoo.
I'm here, liliana Bela.
I am the beautiful co-host, asMaria introduced me, and we're
here with a special guest.
Erica, how do you want tointroduce yourself to our
audience?
Erika (00:31):
I'm Erica and I'm a big fat nerd and I feel like that
social worker and a registeredplay therapist supervisor and
advanced certified in Adlerianplay therapy.
(00:51):
Wow, and and yeah, and I'm abig geek and like I love that
about myself and I embrace itand yeah, and what's not to
embrace?
Liliana (01:08):
Excuse me, I think that's the best credential right
.
Yes, so, erica, what are wetalking about this morning?
What are we learning from youthis morning?
Erika (01:20):
Well, I think one thing unique that I do and not that
I'm the only one that does it,because I know I'm not but I of
like Dungeons and Dragons withclients, whether that's building
(01:51):
a character and seeing, like,okay, what can we get out of
this character, how can we usethis character?
Or, you know, creating a wholenew modality to experience
therapy through Dungeons andDragons.
You know it's I just I love thegame.
I kind of like I live my lifein the game.
(02:15):
I think in terms of Dungeonsand Dragons.
A lot of times it's very weirdfor me at like I'll be like
thinking about my or goingthrough my day and something
will happen.
I'm like I failed a dex checkright there or something, and
like I just I think in Dungeonsand Dragons and so when I can
(02:38):
incorporate it into things, Iget really excited.
Liliana (02:42):
I'm excited just seeing your faces.
You're describing this.
Maria (02:47):
I love it.
So, Liliana, do you have anyexperience with D&D Dungeons
Dragons?
I don't Okay.
Liliana (02:54):
I'm a virgin in this topic, okay.
Maria (02:57):
I know.
Liliana (02:58):
Erica's like.
Maria (02:59):
I'll take you here.
We'll take good care of you,liliana.
Thank you, because I want toshare, because I also one of the
things that I I mean, I adoreerica.
This is not a surprise toanybody, I hope, um, but erica
is one idol for me.
Who?
Because when I, when I startedmy dungeon dragons journey, it
(03:22):
was high school, so it was along time ago.
I know, high school, so it wasa long time ago.
I know I look pretty, but itwas a long time ago.
It was in the time where, youknow, dungeons and Dragons was
not really popular.
It was the outcast group.
I was allowed to play sometimes,but my character was dictated
by the group because I was theonly female right Like, females
(03:44):
were still not really themajority of players not the
majority of players, I don'tthink but we were not common
players and when we were, wewere helpers or healers and that
was our role.
My experience is like that's ifyou want to play, that's what
you have to do.
So it wasn't until much laterin my adult life that I started
like tiptoeing back into it,because that experience was just
(04:06):
so rough.
And Erica is someone who justembodies D&D and being a geek
and being a nerd and it justradiates from her in a way that
I think is it's so therapeuticand healing to be around that
when she was like, oh yeah, I dothis stuff in my practice, I
was like, of course you do, ofcourse you do.
(04:28):
I couldn't imagine you doingtherapy in any other way, and I
have to recognize that that'snot always easy.
Being a geek, being a nerd,doing D&D and alternative quote
unquote, alternative things intherapy sessions is not still
widely accepted or an easy placeto be.
Liliana (04:52):
I think I love that right, which is how associations
or how our field.
Let's start with our field.
It's not ready for alternativetherapy.
They keep thinking of this isthe only way to do therapy, as
if we're all the same, have thesame needs, have the same gender
(05:14):
, have the same abilities ordisabilities, have the same
barriers.
This idea that this model workswith everyone and for everyone
is just a fantasy.
Yes, right.
So I love that you're usingeither the images that you bring
(05:35):
in, the language that you'rebringing in, because I assume
I'm making the assumption thatclients feel connected to this
because they're integratingconstantly as they're working,
and then you're bringing this.
It's this beautiful integrationthat I'm picturing that is
happening for them.
Erika (05:53):
Yes, and that's kind of how it started for me, like how
I decided like, hey, this hasgot some therapeutic value.
Yeah, um, I was playing in myown campaign.
So like I didn't start playingD&D until 2016.
I had never heard of it, like Ididn't know anything about it,
(06:17):
and one of my husband's umfriends from like growing up,
who he's still connected to,said, hey, hey, do you guys want
to play D&D?
And I was like what?
I have no idea what this is.
And so he, he told us about it.
I was like, yeah, we can giveit a try.
And so we started our campaigntwo weeks after Alan Rickman
(06:38):
died.
And the reason that's importantwas because, like that was very
impactful for me, was becauselike that was very impactful for
me.
And so, like my character, hername was Alana and the town that
she grew up in was Rickmana andeverything about her was tied
to him somehow, and it ended upbeing just this whole thing.
(07:00):
But I would have to look backat my notes and my my notebook.
So our campaign that we played,our story that we played, was
five and a half years long.
So I got to, I got to embodythis character fairly
consistently every other weekend, for I mean, we usually started
(07:24):
about one o'clock in theafternoon and we would play
sometimes until midnight.
Yeah, so every other weekend Igot to step into this person.
Liliana (07:34):
Yeah.
Erika (07:35):
Every for about five and a half years, and I was our note
taker.
So, like, my binder is like,you know what is that?
About three inches is like that.
You know what is that aboutthree inches like it's, it's
pretty big.
Um, so I would say, probably acouple of years, two to three
years into it, I had thisexperience where I knew this
(08:00):
confrontation between mycharacter and another character
was going to happen.
And confrontation is not, isnot Erica's strong suit.
Yeah, alana, alana can doconfrontation though, um, when
she has to.
And this was this was going tobe one that needed to happen and
it was going to happen.
And so in between the two weeks, I was like playing through
(08:22):
these scenarios in my head.
I'm like, okay, well, if thisother character says this, then
Alana can say this, and if thecharacter says this, then Alana
can say this.
And I practiced and practicedin my head for two weeks and
then it happened.
And it happened, like thescenarios that I played out
happened.
(08:43):
And on the way home that was oneof our later sessions and I
remember turning to my husbandand I was like, holy shit, I did
that, I did that and I wasshaking the whole time, yeah,
and my heart was beating so fast, like I remember this and it
was beating so hard.
But I remember thinking like Idid that, yeah, and it probably
(09:09):
took me at least another year toto see some other changes in me
and I was like, yeah, there'sgotta be a way to bring this
into therapy.
I love that.
And so I started doing someresearch, which there's not
there.
There's more now, yeah, there'smore on the mental health side
(09:32):
than there was on the playtherapy side, and really there
still is not much on the playtherapy side which baffles the
crap out of me because it's agame.
It's a game.
Yeah, pulls the crap out of mebecause it's a game.
It's a game, yeah, that's I.
You know there are some peopledoing some work in grad school.
(09:52):
That is we're trying to.
We're trying to remedy that, um, and so I just I started
incorporating it slowly, I will,in my biggest barrier, slowly,
I well, in my biggest barrier,and I think for especially for
(10:13):
women, is being the DM, likebeing the storyteller there,
because it's a lot like, it's alot of pressure, yeah, it is so
much pressure and so like to bethe storyteller, to be the one
who had who has to like, feellike you have all the answers
and have everything planned outand know, you know, almost be
like you have to be on all thetime and once number one.
(10:34):
Once I got over that, it's okayif I pause and have to look
something up like I can be humanand say I need a second yeah,
that helped.
That helped.
But I also ran um uh, acampaign for my friends to kind
of get my my feet under me, andthen I was able to take it into
(10:55):
the therapy.
Maria (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, well, you have practicing and you know,
and we.
I believe that Liliana and Iboth, when we, when we teach and
do trainings on whatever topic,we always incorporate.
Now, you have to do it now,right now, you're going to do it
and practice it.
Right, and that's what you weredoing.
You were needing to practice itand embody it before you bring
it into the therapy room.
I I can't tell you how, like,when I look back at the journey
(11:23):
of this and even just your story, it's like it's baffling to me
that it took us so long to putthese two forces together.
Right, because it is a game,but, more importantly, it's
narrative therapy.
There you go, thank you.
D&d is narrative therapy and Iknow there isn't like a
sanctioned narrative playtherapy thing, you know, even
(11:43):
though it's one of those.
Liliana (11:46):
But let's pause.
First of all, all for all ofyou who are like this is not
play therapy, screw you.
Tell me and show mehistorically what was play
therapy, um, then we can have aconversation about it.
So, truly, yes, you know.
Back off, however, when youwere talking, erica, and coming
back to you, maria, which Iwrote oh, you're doing exposure
(12:06):
therapy, you're doing narrativetherapy.
That's what I wrote right away,like what the hell are you?
What are they talking about?
Erika (12:12):
this is what you're doing absolutely yeah, and the the
thing that I have learned,especially with my clients, is
they will take it, oh yeah, theywill take it where they need it
.
Even if I have and not thatthis has ever happened before I
(12:36):
will have this, this lovelylittle battle, planned out, and
it never happens because myclient needs to do something
else.
They need to make friends withthis spider, isn't that?
Maria (12:51):
therapy, though.
Yeah, we could have the bestplan for a session and the
client comes in and takes itwhere they need to go.
Erika (12:58):
Yes, and you like, as you know, as a therapist, dm, I
need to have the wherewithal,the insight to know when I need
to let the client.
You know, I had a client who Ihad these, these three giant
(13:19):
spiders set up for him to fighthis character.
To fight he's like can I do ananimal handling check?
And so an animal handling checkis like can I see if I can get
close to this spider or animal,whatever, but in this case it
was a spider Can I get see if Ican get close to the spider and
either pet it or, you know, tryand make friends?
(13:41):
Like wanted to get close to it?
Yeah, I was like you can, cantry.
So he rolls the dice and addssome modifiers and it I had a
number in my mind and failed.
He wanted to do it again and itfailed again.
And then he wanted to do it athird time and I was like okay,
this is important, this isimportant to this kid, that this
(14:03):
six.
Yeah, I was like okay, this isimportant, this is important to
this kid, that this six.
I was like, thankfully, rolledhigh the next time.
I was like okay, you succeed.
What do you want to do now?
Liliana (14:11):
Yeah.
Erika (14:12):
He's like I want to make friends with the spider, so then
I get rid of the other spiders.
I'm like, okay, this is.
This is not happening.
These other spiders were notfighting spiders today.
Liliana (14:23):
Yeah.
Erika (14:25):
And so we finished doing what we did in the cave and he
comes out of the cave andthere's another.
There's another character likethat I was playing and he raises
his hands.
So I was doing teletherapy withthis client.
He raises his hands on theother side of the screen and
says I made a friend.
Oh, and I, like this kid didnot need to fight freaking
(14:46):
spiders today.
This kid needed to make afriend and so that I mean I had
this whole plan and, like we doin there in any other, this kid
took it where he needed it to goand it was beautiful and that
spider stayed with him for theentire time oh I love this, I
(15:07):
love it.
Maria (15:08):
And if you I mean if you've heard any of our talks or
if you've seen me inpresentation, you know like um
big nerd, big nerd, I own it,wear my crown proudly, erica,
why?
I mean we could go into likethe whole history of dnd, but we
don't have time for that.
Like the satanic panic, right.
We could go into like the wholehistory of D&D, but we don't
have time for that.
Like the Santana Panic, right.
We could go into all of that.
(15:29):
That's like six episodes initself.
But I'm curious your experiencewith other professionals, other
groups of therapists, othertherapists in general, when you
try to share that this is whatyou do in sessions, when you're
not speaking to other geektherapists is that accepted and
(15:50):
how does that go?
Erika (15:53):
it depends um, some um, in some places, um, they're very
accepting of us.
So, like, um, I have, I have afriend that I I often present
with and him and I, um, it'svery interesting because
(16:17):
typically, if it's not a playtherapy specific organization or
conference, they're like yes,like gimme, gimme, gimme.
Yeah, we have really struggledto.
So him and I together, andmyself, just like on my own,
(16:39):
have really struggled to kind ofbreak into the play therapy
world with this idea of usingD&D, which I find so it baffles
me, it really really baffles me.
Yeah, and you know, I'm stillreally trying to figure out why,
(17:02):
excuse me and some of the youknow, if it's not a geek play
therapy thing.
So of course, that's likethat's different, yeah, play
(17:24):
therapy.
So those two things obviouslyare going to go together.
But you know, some of the playtherapy things I have been able
to kind of get my foot in thedoor has been because of other
people, like they've it.
It hasn't even been me puttingmy, my name into the basket.
It's been them saying, hey, youneed to come do this thing, and
(17:45):
I say, okay, yeah, um, and I'mnot, I don't know, you know, and
it's it's so interesting againto me like last year at the uh,
the play therapy conference,like the big play therapy
conference.
I was going up the escalator andI have these D and D skirts
(18:07):
that I got at comic-con from thelegging lass.
Oh, she's amazing.
I freaking love her stuff and Ispent so much money there.
Um, so I was wearing one of myD and D skirts and Paris
Goodyear Brown happened to be onthe escalator behind me and
she's like I really like yourskirt.
I was like, thank you, I, youknow I really love D&D.
(18:30):
And she said my son juststarted playing and he really
enjoys it.
And I was like, has he like,has he gotten anything out of it
yet?
And she's like, you know, Ithink he maybe has.
I can see how it can be reallytherapeutic and I was like huh,
what a wild concept, wildconcept, and I kind of wanted to
(18:54):
say can you make a publicservice announcement about that,
because I feel like peoplewould listen to you.
Liliana (19:01):
People don't know me, like right yet, but, but I but I
think, no, let's, let, can.
I'm gonna name the elephant inthe room, because why not?
Is it harold?
Are we naming it?
Yes, I love that, but I think,like you're naming things that
still have not been named in ourfield, specifically in play
(19:23):
therapy.
One is that we still have theold timers I'm not even calling
the originals anymore the oldtimers who are adhering to.
This is what we're familiar,this is what we're comfortable.
Anything else it's rejected.
So that's one part Two, thatour field, specifically the
(19:45):
association, it's about who dothey like and therefore they'll
be invited.
So this idea like, oh, you gothrough this process, they're
going to bend me, they're likethat's okay.
But like, submit your proposalBullshit.
But like so major proposalbullshit.
(20:08):
There is the process of who dowe like, who we can mold, who we
, and it's like the we whichwe're not included.
So therefore, yes, you needsomeone to hold the door for you
so that you can come in, butit's still they can hold the
door.
But if they're not advocating,if they're not doing public
(20:30):
announcements, if they're notchanging that old trajectory,
nothing will change.
Patterns will continue, becausethat what systems were set up
to hold these barriers.
Maria (20:44):
I'm going to go quiet.
I feel like part of it is thatthey reject what they don't
understand, and this is true formany, many systems, many, many
organizations, right, if?
Liliana (20:59):
they do not understand it, or it?
Maria (21:00):
does not immediately spark an interest for them, then
it's dismissed.
And in when we talk about playtherapy specifically, I feel
like that boggles my mind evenmore right, because play therapy
harps on.
Play is the language the childgets to lead.
Yes your child is.
This is the same.
I think digital play therapy isin a similar vein, but they've
(21:21):
gotten much farther than geekplay therapy has so far.
But I think it's like well, Idon't play D&D, I don't like
that type of gaming.
I don't game, I don't do.
Well, we can have a wholepodcast on play therapy.
It's not playing.
I think that's part of it is.
I don't understand it.
(21:41):
It's not something I enjoy.
So therefore, it is rejectedand is invalid.
There you go.
I'm going to pause, erica.
What do you want to say?
Erika (21:52):
No, I agree, and I think that it's so frustrating because
, you know, I even looked at andI brought this up to an
individual who I trust withinthe association with the
conference and how it'sfrustrating that I see the exact
(22:15):
, exact word for word, exactsame presentations year after
year.
And, yes, I, I fully understandthat there are certain things
that like that we that need tobe at the conference, yes, we
foundations are important.
Yes, the probation is importantwe need foundation stuff, we
(22:36):
need ethics stuff.
Yes, we do, and there should bea the bulk of it being how are
we moving our field forward?
Yeah, what are what are wedoing that's new and innovative?
What are we doing?
You know just what are we doingthat's new?
Yeah, because you know when Igo, you know, this year I I'm
(23:01):
like I have two full days whereI'm not doing anything because
there was nothing that sparkedmy interest.
Yes, yeah, and so I'm actuallythose two days I'm taking my D&D
stuff and I'm like who wants todo some one shots?
Maria (23:19):
Who wants to play?
Liliana (23:21):
Beautiful.
Erika (23:22):
Yeah, some one shots.
Who wants to play beautiful?
Yeah, because you know I'm notgoing to spend money on
something that does not spark myinterest and that I'm not
interested that I don't need.
Maria (23:31):
Yeah, I love that, I love that and I do.
I mean, I want to kind of alsocircle back to this idea that
you are being pulled into spaces, because I think that's a very
common first experience.
And you know, and I think youknow, Mrs, you're going to hear
(23:53):
this audio.
You won't see the video, butyou'll see Erica's picture.
Erica, you pass as a white woman, and so as do I, and I think we
get invitations to tables basedon that.
Sometimes you know and I know Iknow you well enough that I
feel like I can say that you andI both take that privilege and
(24:17):
we use it to jam our foot in thedoor and hold it open for the
people who actually need to beat the table.
Yes, right, you and I have lotsto contribute, but we're not
the voices that need to be atthese tables.
90% of the time, we're the onesthat get the invitation, but I
know I use my invitation to holdmy hand out and pull the voice
(24:37):
that needs to be there with me.
Whether they like it or not,they need the association.
Not liking it?
Yeah, well, I mean, we have, wehave a little bit of time.
We can't do this.
We could do this for hours, butwhy, why?
Why are we not?
Why are we not inviting theright people to the table?
(24:59):
Why is it, when there's a newidea, that feels dangerous and
scary instead of being curious?
Liliana (25:08):
which.
Maria (25:08):
I feel like the stance for play therapists is a natural
curiosity, yeah.
Liliana (25:17):
That was a big one, Erica.
Maria (25:18):
I know it was a big question.
Erika (25:20):
I think it comes back to the not.
I think it comes back to thenot To.
I think it's a couple of things.
I think it comes back, numberone, to the not understanding,
to the not to the notunderstanding what things are.
And also, I think it comes tonot wanting to rock the boat.
(25:43):
Yeah, because there are so manythings going on in our country
right now, in our country numberone In our world.
Number two Absolutely there are.
(26:12):
I think that there are peoplewho I'm deliberately choosing my
words carefully because forlots of reasons but I think that
there are people in power whoare letting certain things get
in the way of the bigger pictureand are doing more harm than
(26:34):
good.
Yes, and instead of kind oftaking a step back and saying,
hey, maybe, maybe, maybe, Ieither need to step aside and
let someone who backspace just alittle bit.
(26:57):
Um, I read this book, I was, Iwas, uh, I don't know, given
this book is a homework to readand it's called liminal thinking
.
I can not remember the authorat the by the, at like right now
, um, but it was brilliant andwhat it did for me.
(27:19):
I don't really, honestly, knowthat I learned anything
differently from it, but what itdid for me was it gave me words
to describe the way that Ithink.
Yeah, and so in this book hetalked about how people have
blind spots and so kind of how Iconceptualize this is like we
(27:41):
all kind of live in our ownlittle.
There are individuals who havelike see-through snow globes and
they can see.
They can see the things goingon around them.
They might have a black spothere and there, that those are
(28:01):
their blind spots or those arethe spots that they are
intentionally not willing to see.
So, like I definitely have ahave a few spots where I'm like
I am not going to look at thatright now, I am not willing to
listen to your perspective onthis right now, because I am so
(28:28):
entrenched in my own and Ibelieve that if I open this
blind spot like yours is goingto do harm to mine.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely believe thatthere are a handful of people,
(28:50):
maybe maybe lots of people, whohave mostly black snow globes
with only little pinpricks thatthey can see out of.
Yeah, and I sometimes feel likethose are the people who get put
in charge of things.
Yeah, and I think that issometimes why we're not invited
(29:17):
to the table.
Yeah, community invited to thetable.
Because it's different andbecause it's not understood and
because it's not traditional.
Right, when that's kind ofbullshit, because it is, yes,
(29:44):
we're just calling it somethingdifferent, like we're owning the
geekness of it.
We're owning all of that andwe're banding together,
demanding to be seen instead oftrying to fit in with everyone
else.
Maria (30:02):
I love that analogy.
It gives so much grace becauseI can often get rooted into this
.
Because I can often get rootedinto this, they're actively
(30:27):
choosing to reject this, whichmay be know how to fix this.
You're going to take the peopleand you're going to make them
play a campaign with you.
They have the experience ofwhat D&D, because I think that's
part of it is that they'rerejecting it without trying it,
without knowing what it is.
(30:47):
They've based it on whateverconcept they have.
When they hear the word D&D,which is still like for some,
it's you know, it's Satan panic,it's dirty teenage boys in
basements, it's you know what Imean.
And I mean my invitation nowwould be come play, come play,
play, play a one shot shot withErica and then make a decision
(31:12):
Right.
At least become informed beforeyou make a decision that's so
harmful to so many.
Liliana (31:21):
Well, and it's an idea right, because we're talking
about a generation, everyonewho's in power, which is the
generation that grew up with.
You play outside, you play withgame boards, you like nature
all of that is great, but thisis how you play.
So the idea of playingdigitally, like in a game, and
now you've seen like theseactual, tangible things that
(31:44):
they perceive like that's theonly way.
Because of that, they rejectanything else, because of their
template.
The invitation that you'redoing is like the world is
evolving and as we are evolving,we do not want to be left
behind.
The question is how do we adaptto what is happening and invite
(32:06):
others, and how do we integrateethically from the lens of
exposure and narrative therapy,and integrate this to help the
generation that is doing this,versus rejecting and then
becoming outdated, which is thefear that they have.
That's why they hold on topower to be outdated, and that's
(32:30):
exactly what they're working sohard for, right?
So I love even when you saidlike oh, they're morons, I'll
call them out for you.
And because they only hang outwith the same people, read the
same shit, do the same over andover again, like that's why
there's no expansion, there's nolearning, there's no curiosity.
(32:53):
I'll do it for you.
I'll take that for you.
Maria (32:56):
Well, we've talked, we've named it before, liliana that
often people in those positionsof power either have never done
clinical work so they don'tthey're making decisions on work
that they don't do, or it'sbeen a long time since they've
done clinical work and they'renot familiar with the landscape
of what we're doing and how ourclients are presenting today.
Liliana (33:18):
Or let's name the third one, which is the holding to
patriarchy principles.
So that's the third one.
Erika (33:27):
Well, and that's kind of you know, the, the, the bridge.
Yeah, is it okay if I talkabout the, the Sanjay thing that
I Go for it?
Yeah, okay.
So I last year at the Kansasplay therapy conference, Last
year at the Kansas Play TherapyConference, sophia Ansari was
(33:50):
our speaker and the first dayshe did superheroes, she did her
superhero training, which I had.
Actually that was the first timeI had ever met Sophia in person
.
I met her for the first timeever during COVID, virtually and
(34:12):
did the super superherotraining.
So it was fun to have likenumber one, get to finally meet
her in person and then get to dothat in person.
And then the second day she didsand tray.
Um, and her and I got to bereally good friends from that
sand, from that virtual training, until I mean now, but anyway,
um, so during the sand traytraining she, in front of you
know the whole conference, sheturns to me.
(34:35):
She's like Erica, you shouldfigure out how to put Dungeons
and Dragons in the sand tray,and then she keeps going on and
she keeps, like you know, doingher thing.
Just a little nugget of geniusdropped in your lap, yeah of
genius dropped in your lap, yeah, so it took me about a year to
(34:57):
to put this idea together, tofigure out, okay, how can?
Because it wouldn't leave.
It would not leave my brain.
Yep, Like, I'm going to figureout how to freaking do this
because I think that's brilliantnumber one, and you know, I
know that there are people outthere who they like, actually do
campaigns in this end, which Ithink is cool.
(35:18):
But I wanted this to bedifferent.
I wanted this to be a lot moresimplified, so what I did is it
took me about a year to figureout okay, how can this be
translatable to every singleplay?
therapist's office oh wow, what,what all elements can I take
(35:40):
from traditional dungeons anddragons and put into this thing?
And then how in the hell am Igoing to teach it, like to make
sense, to people who have neverplayed?
Yeah, and so I did that.
I did it, yeah, and there's, um, I have an amazing, amazing
(36:06):
friend who is like spatiallyorganized I guess I don't know
if that's the best way to saythat, but like I struggle to see
things on paper and so, like Idrew out like the character
sheet on a piece of graph paperand that's, that's legit, what I
(36:29):
was going to use and just typethings out in outline format, in
word, and I was showing it toher one day.
Um, cause I know that shereally loves, and she's like
Erica, do you want me to makethat pretty for you?
And I was like, can you do that?
And she's like, yeah, Iactually enjoy doing that.
(36:52):
And I was like that's amazing.
So she did, and it's beautiful,it is so beautiful.
And so I'm oh gosh, a monthfrom tomorrow, I'm doing my very
first training on like teachinghow to do this.
(37:14):
I ran so before I even did anyof that, I, my, my child is 15.
Um, and I took them to myoffice.
I was like okay, can you, canyou just help me run through
this, like I want to make surethat it works as good in
practice as it does in my brain,cause sometimes things don't
work as well in practice as theydo in my brain.
(37:35):
And after we were done this isthe best compliment I probably
will ever get in my life aboutthis my child said to me mom,
you're a really good DM to memom, you're a really good DM and
I was like thank you, baby.
Liliana (37:58):
Yeah, that is a badge of honor.
I will frame that.
Maria (38:03):
Ask his signature because we don't get those comments
from our children, Erica.
I want to just highlight andbecause I know Liliana is going
to give me the signal that weneed to wrap up, I know this.
I just want to highlight thatwe've been able to talk through
the sense of rejection, thisdismissive downplay, no, no, no,
you're not welcome.
This is not okay.
(38:23):
And you have doubled down andbasically said F you.
I have found a way to make thisin a way that you can't argue
with this.
You can't argue with this,because on paper and in practice
, this works and that you'veused foundational, you've used
all the boxes that they want youto check, but you not only were
(38:46):
like this works and I want tokeep doing this.
You have doubled down and arenow creating spaces for other
therapists to feel empowered andeducated and trained enough to
do the same thing for theirclients.
Erika (38:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and that's why that'slike that was the goal with this
.
I'm like, ok, so you know iskind of like, how can I get more
people into this?
And like, how can I get like astepping stone in between into
this?
And like how can I get like astepping stone in between?
I have no idea what the hellI'm doing with this to.
Okay, I want to learn more.
Yeah, because it there is a lotlike there's a lot a lot
(39:20):
there's a lot and I'm like okay,what you know, can this be an
in-between?
and I think that it's.
Can this be an in-between?
And I think that it's simpleenough.
I think it's simple.
I'm hoping.
I tried to make it as simple aspossible.
I love that and I really,really think it is.
Maria (39:42):
But you've made it bite-sized.
I mean you have to.
Erika (39:48):
Yes, I have made it super , super bite-sized, um, and I
don't know, I think it's, I feellike I, I feel like it's
something.
I feel like it's something thatcan be really useful for people
and that that therapists, whohave no idea what Dungeons and
Dragons is, that they they'relike oh, this is, this is really
cool, this is very cool.
Liliana (40:10):
So you said a month for now, tell me what day, because
I'm gonna go, as I, as, as Ishare with all of you at the
beginning, I'm a virgin in this.
I'll go to your training.
Um, it's.
Erika (40:18):
April or not April Jesus.
I was like wait a minute,august 8th, um, and it'll be.
It'll be, uh, virtually, andthe what I think is going to be
really cool is my, my sweetchild, oh crap.
Maria (40:37):
Just had a realization happen.
Erika (40:41):
Okay, it may not be my sweet child, because I just
realized my parents wanted my.
They, my parents, take all thegrandbabies for a few days out
of the summer to have, um.
My maiden name is jones, sothey have jones camp, nice, um,
and it's during that time.
So I will find, I'm going tofind another kid.
(41:04):
It was going to be my kid, um,now I don't think it could be my
kid because my kid's going topick Jones Camp over.
But I'm going to have someonethere to do like a demonstration
because I want people to seethis in practice and to see me
fumble, because I'm going tofumble, it's beautiful.
Maria (41:25):
It's realistic.
And this is just the firstoffering.
So if this doesn't get posteduntil after and you feel like
you've missed out.
You haven't.
You haven't Just follow Erica.
We'll include her socials andcatch her on the next one,
because, erica, what a gift, yes, oh my gosh, what a gift.
I mean, we've converted Liliana.
It's going to happen.
(41:48):
It's going to happen it's gonnahappen.
Liliana (41:56):
It's gonna happen.
So please, uh, come back andtalk to us more about this,
because we do need you, we doneed.
I mean, that was the wholepurpose of the conversation
between maria and I,specifically with the podcast,
which is, how do we keep uminviting others so they can come
and share their gifts?
Because play therapy is notjust one model and play therapy
is more than one way.
If we truly are curious and wetruly believe that we have to
(42:19):
allow the children to lead, thenthat means that we continuously
have to be adapting to whatkids are doing and exposed to,
and playing and learning.
So.
So it's up to us to do itdifferently.
So thank you for being a voice,for being a light and showing
us how to.
Maria (42:38):
Erica, thank you so much.
You are truly I mean, I feelhonored and blessed to have you
in my life, both personally andprofessionally.
But what a gift you are, and Ihope that you do come back,
maybe even after your firsttraining, so we can see how it
goes and what you need insupport, because this is not the
end.
This is simply the beginningfor you, and I'm, I'm excited
(43:01):
for this journey.
I really, really am, yes, thank, you.
Erika (43:05):
I'm excited too.
I appreciate it.
Maria (43:07):
Well, thanks for being here, Erica.
Thank you Until next time, guys.
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