April 11, 2024 • 26 mins
Honing In On Intimacy w/ Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife
In this episode, Jen engages in a compelling dialogue with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, an LDS sex therapist, to delve into topics of sexuality, intimacy, and identity. Dr. Finlayson-Fife shares insights into her unique approach to enhancing intimacy in relationships, the impact of personal identity on sexual dynamics within marriage, and the challenges couples face in fostering a deeply connected sexual relationship. Key discussions include the significance of confronting personal and relationship adversities, understanding the role of honesty and integrity in intimate connections, and strategies for overcoming obstacles to sexual intimacy. Dr. Finlayson-Fife also touches upon her personal journey, including confronting the challenges of parenting a child on the autism spectrum and how such experiences shape personal growth and values. Additionally, she highlights available resources, including her online courses, podcast 'Room for Two,' and her participation in broader discussions on authentic leadership and overcoming societal 'shoulds.'
00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Today's Special Guest 01:13 A Unique Conversation with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife 04:41 Exploring Identity, Sexuality, and Intimacy with Dr. Finlayson-Fife 10:58 The Role of Identity in Sexual Activity and Intimacy 13:56 Overcoming Obstacles in Sexual Relationships 19:46 The Power of Adversity and Growth in Relationships 24:53 Final Thoughts and Where to Find Dr. Finlayson-Fife
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Navigating Adversity and Finding Intimacy: A Deep Dive with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife
In a world where challenges can refine our character and relationships, the journey to understanding intimacy and overcoming adversity is a pivotal one. In a recent podcast episode, I had the enlightening opportunity to sit down with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife, an LDS sex therapist known for her insightful perspectives on sexuality, intimacy, and relationships. Our conversation delved into the depths of identity, core values, and the transformative power of facing adversity head-on.
### Unveiling Intimacy Through Identity
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife highlighted the intrinsic connection between identity and intimacy. She emphasized how our sense of self and willingness to be vulnerable play a crucial role in fostering deep connections with our partners. The ability to be truly knowable and to know our partners, even in moments of discomfort, is key to developing authentic intimacy.
### Confronting Adversity: A Path to Growth
One of the most impactful aspects of our conversation was Dr. Finlayson Fife's reflection on personal adversity and its role in shaping her journey. She shared a poignant story of her experience with her child being diagnosed with autism, which brought forth deep-seated insecurities and fears related to success and validation. Through this adversity, she confronted her own need for validation through her children and faced the choice to embrace acceptance and love over shame and fear.
### The Complexity of Overcoming Sexual Challenges
As a sex therapist, Dr. Finlayson Fife shed light on the obstacles that can inhibit sexual relationships and functioning in marriages. She addressed the role of sexual shame, the importance of self-revelation in intimacy, and the courage required to navigate challenges together as a couple. Her insights highlighted the need for honesty, humility, and a willingness to confront discomfort in order to foster healthy sexual relationships.
### Strengthening Relationships Through Adversity
While adversity can present significant challenges, Dr. Finlayson Fife emphasized that it can also pave the way for greater strength and resilience in relationships. By facing adversity head-on, couples have the opportunity to rebuild and grow together, creating a more intimate and vibrant partnership. She st
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Hey, hey, anotherThursday, another episode.
I am so excited to introduceto you today's guest, Dr.
Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe.
If you're not familiar with her, she isan LDS sex therapist, and it was really
neat to talk to her and learn from her.
She said that this interview wasa little bit unique because the
questions were different thanthe ones she normally gets asked.
(00:44):
And it was cool to look througha lens of identity as we talked
about sexuality and intimacy.
See you.
Something I learned from Dr.
Finlayson Fife is that she has anarchive of all the podcast episodes she's
been a guest on listed on her website.
I think that's a really neat idea justto listen to her different conversations
(01:05):
and so you can find those on her website.
I will be emulating that soonbecause I really like that idea.
Without further ado, we will goto my conversation with Jennifer.
Hello, I am here with Dr.
Jennifer Finlayson Five.
How are you today?
Good.
Good.
It's fun to share the same name.
(01:27):
Sometimes I tell people that Jen isshort for generic because there's
so many Jennifers, but we'reall unique individuals, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, we will just start with anintroduction of you and then we'll go into
your work and how you serve individuals.
So what is a favorite hobby of yours?
Uh, probably just decorating and making.
(01:50):
My house and yard look nice.
I I love doing that whenI have the time to do it.
So yeah, yes, right That's the keyword there when we have the time.
That's such a fun creative outlet.
I love that What are some of the hatsthat you wear in your daily life?
well Not a lot more than my workis so much of my life at this point
(02:12):
because my kids are now out of thehouse, but I'm still very much in
the, so I'm in the hat of being ainstructor and coach and podcaster and
I'm, you know, and writer and author.
I'm working on a book right now thatI'm really pushing to get finished
in the next month or so or two.
But but a parent you know, I'min conversation with my kids
(02:34):
quite a bit, even though theylive remotely most of the time.
And, you know, I mean, it's interesting.
I just, my mom's.
recently and was ill.
So it was caregiver and, youknow, figuring out the best
place to get the care she needed.
And, you know, just a lot of those kindsof tasks over the last year or more.
(02:58):
So, but that role hasshifted now a little bit.
So anyway, but, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
Where do you live right now?
I'm in Vermont currently.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, what is one of your core values?
What do you feel like drives you the most?
That's
(03:19):
a really good question.
And just something I have to thinkabout for a second, core value.
I mean,
I really value, you know, honesty andintegrity, which is different than
saying I'm always honest and alwayshave integrity, but I have a great
deal of respect for it in humanitybecause it takes a lot of courage.
(03:42):
And so I love.
about people who've stood up and done theright thing, even when they were, they
had a lot of personal costs for doing it.
I, it always moves me when I see peoplebe honest in ways that are painful
or kind of puncturing of their egoor what they want to have be true.
(04:04):
Cause I know how much courage it takes,but the beauty that's also in it and
the freedom that comes through it.
And so, It's just something that I thinkmy heart has always kind of connected to,
even though it's taking me time as I grewup to kind of understand what it was about
that that felt so important and promising.
(04:27):
So I would say that's a fundamental value.
Yeah, that's good.
And I love the distinction youmade there that you value it, but
you're not perfect at it becauseyou're all striving to be better.
Yes.
But I love that that's a value of yours.
Yeah.
So my podcast centers around adversityand how challenges refine our character.
When is a time that you experiencedsome adversity and how did it shape you?
(04:50):
Well, I mean, one that just stands outis that, you know, I think, I think that
when I, one of the things that I didas a young person was try to establish
myself as legitimate through success.
(05:12):
And I married into a family that'svery academically successful.
And I was always a hard worker,but I didn't feel like I was
necessarily academically gifted orjust, you know, so I had a little
bit of insecurity about that.
And, uh, and so, you know, I thinkthe, what the adversity was is that my
(05:34):
first child was diagnosed with autismor she was on the autism spectrum.
And.
For me, it really kind of broughtright to the surface a kind of an
unarticulated value that was not goingto, I was not going to be able to
maintain, which is, you know, that yourchildren will prove that you're capable
(06:00):
or that, you know, I mean, I know thissounds so lame cause it wasn't one I
would have admitted to myself, but itwas like exactly my fear was there.
I had.
My in laws and their children, you know,and the grandkids and so on were just
exceptional and exceptionally bright.
And my first child wasa special needs child.
Now, I mean, I know that just soundsterrible, but I, but for my insecure self,
(06:23):
this was a kind of like, am I enough?
Is it sort of about me and sort of makingwho my beautiful child was somehow a
measure of me that I felt shame about.
And so it kind ofgratefully, to be honest.
(06:43):
Just brought right to the head this issuethat I had a choice to make about whether
or not I was going to feel ashamed of orfearful around who my child was or whether
or not I was going to truly accept himand love him and get over myself, right?
And get over this need or desire to provesomething to myself through my children.
(07:09):
And so it was a crisisand it wasn't just that.
There was also the crisis of, amI going to be able to parent him?
Am I going to be able togive him what he needs?
Is he going to have a fulfilling life?
I mean, there were a lot of things beyondthat particular issue, but it really made
me kind of have to address it sort ofstraight up and see how it was operating
in me and that I was not proud of it.
(07:29):
I did not respect it in myself.
I, I knew it was unloving and self focusedand that I had to grow up around it.
And it wasn't like the lasttime I confronted that issue.
I still confront the issue.
It still will come up for me at times.
And I'm like, Jennifer, we've beenthrough this, like, however, uh, I don't
(07:49):
know that, had I not had that sort ofacute sort of challenge to a desire of
mine, That I I'm, I'm in ways gratefulfor it because it kind of pressures you
to confront something and get strongerand more loving and more decent.
Yeah.
Wow.
I love that example.
(08:10):
I feel like that's very relatable becausea lot of people see their children as
reflection of themselves, but reallythey're such unique individuals.
And it's funny.
I hear people say, Oh yeah, this isthe child that makes me look good.
You know, because really theyare who they are and they're
beautiful in many different ways.
So that's, that's great.
Okay, let's move into what you do andI have heard your name for years and
(08:34):
years And so it's it's an honor toto be meeting with you and talking
with you So do you want to explainin your own words what you do?
And then we'll go into alittle bit of the questions.
Sure.
So, I Let's see.
The fastest way to say what I do is thatI teach and coach couples and individuals
about how to develop more capacity forintimacy and And what I mean by intimacy
(09:01):
is the ability to be an honest, openhearted connection with a beloved other.
And you'd think, well, intimacy,I'm all about, I love intimacy.
It's great.
You know, most of us think that we're,cause what we mostly like is validation
and we tend to like closeness, butintimacy is this sort of ability to
tolerate really being knowable andreally knowing another person who
(09:25):
is going to be different than you.
That's not there to just validateyou and make you feel good.
That sometimes is frustratinglydifferent than you.
And so it's very connected to developinga greater capacity to love and know.
And so I having grown up as a Latter daySaint and seeing some of the strengths
(09:48):
and liabilities of the faith traditionhave really worked a lot with Latter
day Saints around some of the meaningsthat many of us inherited that have
worked against developing greater.
capacity for love and intimacy and whatare some of our teachings and beliefs
(10:08):
that actually facilitate growing inour capacity to love and know another.
And so I do a lot of teaching andcoaching and podcasting on topics that
aren't just related to Latter day Saints.
Of course, that's just been a kind ofa focus of mine, but our very human
Challenges and very human questionsabout how do we really become
(10:32):
capable of a deep form of monogamy?
How do we really become capableof intimate friendship, which is a
capacity, it's something you grow.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's beautiful.
I'm so glad I had you describe it because,you know, I hear your name and it's
like, Oh yeah, she's a sex therapist,but there's so much more beyond that.
(10:53):
And, and the definition is huge.
So thank you.
So my season this year inmy podcast is identity.
So I was wondering how identity relates tosexual activity in marriage or intimacy.
Oh, that's a good question.
So, you know, it, it very much relatesfirst of all, to the question of
(11:16):
intimacy and because how we feel aboutourselves And our ability to sustain
our sense of self while we're inhonest connection with others is highly
related to our capacity for intimacy.
And so when we have a fragile sense ofself or our identity is kind of limited,
(11:40):
we kind of will do one of three things.
We'll either avoidintimate connection, right?
We just, we might be sexual, butwe don't let our spouse in on
who we are and how we feel and.
We limit the amount of contact or wego and try to get love and validation
(12:01):
and approval so you can even be higherdesire for sexual contact, but it's
coming out of a neediness, like, I wantyou to love me and make me feel okay
about me, or you can see what I say.
You avoid your pressure or you just outof your need to feel needed or your need
to feel that someone feels okay about you.
(12:21):
Okay.
You maybe go along with and you're sexual,but you're not really wanting to be there,
but you do it because you don't wantthe displeasure or the lack of approval.
And so we can do any of these things,but of course, if you're in a committed
relationship and it's built on afoundational premise of attraction and
(12:47):
desire and sexual exclusivity, Right.
Then our challenges around how doI actually create something that's
mutually desirable and how do we createsomeplace where we can actually be
together, those challenges around yoursense of self or your identity come
(13:07):
up right away in intimate contact,because, you know, if you're struggling
with your sense of self, it's going toplay out in either high and low desire
dynamics or very avoidant sexuality.
Or just very limited intimacy.
So, so much of the work that I'm doingwith people is about helping them really
(13:29):
look at the stability and the solidnessof their sense of self and what their
intimate partnership is revealingabout where they're weak in this way.
And so I kind of use thecontext of a couple to work
with the individual's growth.
Yeah, that's great.
And.
That kind of leads into the nextquestion of what obstacles are there
(13:53):
to, sorry, let me say that again.
That leads into the next question of whatobstacles are there to inhibit the sexual
relationship or functioning in a marriage?
Well, there, there's the kind of obstaclethat I think a lot of people know about
and assume, which is just sexual shame.
You know, you grow up in a context or afamily that says, you know, sexuality is
(14:15):
a bad thing and you know, only bad peoplewant to be sexual or whatever, and And
you can just not want to develop or exposethis part of yourself, but you can also
out of sexual shame, be a high desireperson that's even kind of compulsive
about sexuality because you're tryingto get validation from the other person.
(14:39):
So sexual shame is certainly one of them.
And that can come from a familyculture, a faith culture, but it's also
about a willingness to be intimate.
And what I mean by that, just kind ofgoing back to the core value I talked
about in the beginning, if you're goingto marry someone and have an intimate
(14:59):
relationship with you, they're not goingto just be applauding all the time, right?
They're going to be like,Hey, that kind of sucks.
I don't really like that about you.
And I think you're being kindof selfish or whatever it is.
And a lot of us need that withlike, how dare you, you know,
you're supposed to love me.
You know, you promised at the,at the altar that you were
going to love me no matter what.
And we don't really want.
(15:21):
To confront that.
What would be difficultabout living with us?
What would be undesirable about us?
What, you know, how we'reactually impacting our partner.
And so intimacy doesn't always feel good.
It actually pressuresus to face ourselves.
And so if we're unwilling to dothat, because again, it takes a lot
(15:42):
of courage and it takes humility.
It takes a willingness to say.
Okay.
You may have a point.
And, and to let your ego be lessimportant than what is true.
And so that takes courage.
And a lot of people have courage.
I mean, I, I've worked with people who'vecome out of the most dire situations,
(16:03):
but they have a lot of courage andthey're willing to face things honestly.
And they're willing to liveas honestly as they can.
And they have a lot of faith in.
In the reality of goodness, you know,so they, they really push themselves.
And then I've worked with peoplethat have come out of pretty good
situations, but their ego is primary.
(16:24):
They don't want to take the hitof saying, look, I really am doing
something that's hurtful or wrong.
And instead they stay in a kind ofvictim entitlement where they're
just always blaming everybody else.
Uh, their spouse included for theirproblems and they don't really grow.
So while a lot of people say theywant intimacy and what they really
(16:47):
want is approval and you know,most of us don't want intimacy.
I mean, intimacy can be prettyharrowing sometimes because it's a
willingness to be honest and knowable.
Yeah.
So what happens when you feel likeit's your partner's work to do?
You're, you've done the work,but you're waiting for your
partner to kind of catch up.
You just have to be patient and,and have a conversation about it.
(17:10):
Sure.
That's kind of a tough questionbecause first of all, a lot of us
think we're just waiting patientlywhen in fact, you know, we're not as
charming as we may think, or we maynot be as far ahead as we may think.
What I do think is often true is thereseems to be an imbalance in desire
to address the relationship, right?
So one person's just like, I don'twant to deal with your unhappiness.
(17:35):
I don't want to deal with the marriage.
It just, you know, let'snot talk about it and so on.
And you can't make someone love you.
You can't make someone grow.
You can't make someoneinvest in a process.
But you can be intimate yourself.
And by intimate, I mean, self revealing.
What we often do is go over and try tomanipulate or get our spouse to do it,
(17:58):
or, you know, try to, you know, pressurethem to do what we want them to do.
All of which is very understandable.
It tends to just justify resistance.
What's much harder is figuringout who am I going to be in this
situation, given that I don't havecontrol over my spouse's choices.
(18:19):
And we can be honest, you know, wecan say, Hey I am deeply disappointed
in your unwillingness to address ourmarriage or our sexual relationship.
I love you.
I want something better for us.
I recognize I am part of this problem.
(18:41):
But I cannot lie that this isnot deeply disappointing and
telling about kind of what you're,what you're willing to do here.
Now, I don't mean you'retrying to punish them.
I'm saying you're sayingsomething honest about what you
see, if that is what you see.
Okay.
Cause there can be many,many different scenarios.
Because what I have found is the lessyou going over the line and trying to get
(19:05):
the other person to want the right thing.
And the more you're willing to see whothey are and see yourself and control your
own choices with more integrity, the morethat actually pressures the other person.
Because as long as they see you tryingto get them to read this thing or
listen to this podcast or whatever, theydon't have to actually make a decision.
(19:26):
They can just either complywith you or resist you.
But if they see you moving forward, Right.
Or being honest and acknowledgingwhat you see that can be pressuring
because it makes the other personrealize I have a decision to make.
Am I going to step in or not?
Yeah, that's good.
(19:46):
So do you feel like when there'ssexual adversity or challenges to
overcome that it makes the couplestronger on the other side or what
have you seen in that instance?
It can, it certainly doesn't always,I mean, you know, some people meet
their adversity with resentment and.
Pessimism and anger.
(20:07):
You know, a lot of us come into crisisat some point in a marriage around what
we thought marriage or family life wasgoing to be, and then what it is, right?
Which is something more limited orsomething that's been disappointing.
And the real question of humanityis, you know, I teach a course called
strengthening your relationship.
And my thesis of this course is.
(20:29):
How you handle yourself whenyou're not getting what you
want determines the marriage.
Because in reality, marriageis about gaps of connection.
Disappointments.
It's not just like running off in thefield together and if you made the right
match everybody's just happily ever after.
I mean we wish.
But that's just nothingclose to what marriage is.
Marriage is about two differentpeople who were attracted to each
(20:52):
other because they are different.
Male and female usually, right?
Even in same sex couples, people arecoming together because they're different.
And so, that's just a lot of difference.
And so, the way you handle not gettingwhat you want or your spouse seeing things
a different way is going to really shapewhat the friendship or partnership is.
(21:16):
And so, Again, some people meet this withresentment and I'm going to go get you
know, go into another relationship orjust build intimacy with my friends and
close off or my children and shut you out.
Or I'm going to take my disappointmentshere and grow and figure out like,
(21:37):
who am I in this partnership?
Who am I in this sexual relationship?
What can I learn from it?
And I have a lot of couples who arewilling to buckle down and do the
hard work of looking at themselves.
Even in pretty dire situationswhere there's been infidelity or
deep deep, you know What could beconsidered a real justification
(21:57):
to not look at yourself at all?
That I've worked with people who arelike, I'm really everything's on the
table I'm willing to look at who wehave been how we got here and how
are we gonna go forward differently?
And when couples do that, I mean theyreally go forward differently like that
the break in the marriage or the crisisor whatever is often the sort of new
(22:19):
found it's the the old foundation kindof crumbles and they're able to rebuild
something stronger and better and reallycreate a more intimate more alive marriage
and you know very few people enjoy thecrisis but most people will look back and
say okay i don't know how else we wouldhave gotten here or That, at least at a
(22:46):
minimum, even if we could have learned itanother way, I'm grateful to it because
it was the springboard into a different,more mature, more intimate partnership.
Yes, I agree fully.
There's a quote that says, I wouldn'tpray for it, but I wouldn't trade it.
And so I love that just beingable to step past it and
rebuild in a more beautiful way.
(23:09):
And then I feel like that'ssuch a great takeaway.
Just how are you showing up in adversity,any kind, but it's been neat to look at it
through a sexual or intimate lens today.
And so I was wondering if you had afavorite quote or mantra that guides
what you do or that comes to mind.
There are so many.
Well, one that I say a lot, you know,I, I don't necessarily have like mantras
(23:32):
all the time in my head, but one that Isay sometimes that I think is absolutely
true is what you most need is as a youngyoung in quote, what you most need is,
and this is a paraphrase, this is notexactly it, but what you most need is
hiding in places you least want to look.
And that is often like it's in the crisis,it's in the rubble, it's in the adversity.
(23:53):
It's like, what I actually need tolearn here is, is hiding in this.
that what I expected fell apart,because it fell apart for a reason.
And it's hard sometimes to thenlook and say, what, what is it
that I need to see about myself?
And our human inclinationis to just get away from it.
It hurts.
It feels bad.
I don't want to see that, but our soulsneed it because if we can see what's
(24:18):
true, the truth sets us free, right?
The truth helps us grow.
into a person who's more solid, who'smore capable of being knowable, who's
more at peace with herself or himself.
So we need that information,but it never feels good, right?
It never, well, I should say sometimesmaybe it does, but if the truth is
(24:41):
you're just amazing, but usuallythe truth has information that's
invalidating of the world as we know it.
And that hurts.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
This has been a fabulous conversation.
I know I took away a lot of insights.
Where can people findyou and your courses?
Uh, they can find me at finlayson fife.
(25:03):
com and I have five online courses.
I've made them specific foran LDS audience, but they are
not LDS, uh, how to say it.
I have that context in mind, butthey're not really heavy on the,
on theology and things like that.
So a lot of people who arenot LDS by the courses.
I also have a podcast called Room forTwo where I'm working with couples, uh,
(25:26):
real couples, their voices are distorted.
They take on pseudonyms, but I'mworking with real couples around
relationship issues, very commonrelationship issues around sexuality,
marriage, raising kids and so on.
So, and then I just have a freepodcast, which is a collection of.
A podcast like this where I'mtalking with different people, but
(25:47):
you can find it all on the website.
So great.
Thank you.
That is so awesome.
I can imagine it's so helpful tohear other people getting advice
because you can take those thingsand apply them to your relationship.
So Thank you for thework that you're doing.
That's so fascinating.
I I just honor what you do.
Thank you so much.
Yes Okay Thank you for listening.
(26:09):
Speaking of podcasts, guests, andepisodes that I've been on, I was
on the Mosaic Network podcast.
Such a phenomenal network.
It is a space for authentic leadersto rise and share what they know.
So you can check out myrecent episode on there.
It was also, uh, an extension of thespeech I gave recently at the MOM Summit.
(26:31):
The shoulds that we carry.
Thank you as always to Blanefrom Ride the Wave Media.
Check out his podcast, The BestPodcast in Utah Radio Daybreak.
Make sure to follow me onInstagram at A is for Adversity
and I'll talk to you next week.
Bye!
Hey, hey, anotherThursday, another episode.
I am so excited to introduceto you today's guest, Dr.
Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe.
If you're not familiar with her, she isan LDS sex therapist, and it was really
neat to talk to her and learn from her.
She said that this interview wasa little bit unique because the
questions were different thanthe ones she normally gets asked.
(00:44):
And it was cool to look througha lens of identity as we talked
about sexuality and intimacy.
See you.
Something I learned from Dr.
Finlayson Fife is that she has anarchive of all the podcast episodes she's
been a guest on listed on her website.
I think that's a really neat idea justto listen to her different conversations
(01:05):
and so you can find those on her website.
I will be emulating that soonbecause I really like that idea.
Without further ado, we will goto my conversation with Jennifer.
Hello, I am here with Dr.
Jennifer Finlayson Five.
How are you today?
Good.
Good.
It's fun to share the same name.
(01:27):
Sometimes I tell people that Jen isshort for generic because there's
so many Jennifers, but we'reall unique individuals, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, we will just start with anintroduction of you and then we'll go into
your work and how you serve individuals.
So what is a favorite hobby of yours?
Uh, probably just decorating and making.
(01:50):
My house and yard look nice.
I I love doing that whenI have the time to do it.
So yeah, yes, right That's the keyword there when we have the time.
That's such a fun creative outlet.
I love that What are some of the hatsthat you wear in your daily life?
well Not a lot more than my workis so much of my life at this point
(02:12):
because my kids are now out of thehouse, but I'm still very much in
the, so I'm in the hat of being ainstructor and coach and podcaster and
I'm, you know, and writer and author.
I'm working on a book right now thatI'm really pushing to get finished
in the next month or so or two.
But but a parent you know, I'min conversation with my kids
(02:34):
quite a bit, even though theylive remotely most of the time.
And, you know, I mean, it's interesting.
I just, my mom's.
recently and was ill.
So it was caregiver and, youknow, figuring out the best
place to get the care she needed.
And, you know, just a lot of those kindsof tasks over the last year or more.
(02:58):
So, but that role hasshifted now a little bit.
So anyway, but, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
Where do you live right now?
I'm in Vermont currently.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, what is one of your core values?
What do you feel like drives you the most?
That's
(03:19):
a really good question.
And just something I have to thinkabout for a second, core value.
I mean,
I really value, you know, honesty andintegrity, which is different than
saying I'm always honest and alwayshave integrity, but I have a great
deal of respect for it in humanitybecause it takes a lot of courage.
(03:42):
And so I love.
about people who've stood up and done theright thing, even when they were, they
had a lot of personal costs for doing it.
I, it always moves me when I see peoplebe honest in ways that are painful
or kind of puncturing of their egoor what they want to have be true.
(04:04):
Cause I know how much courage it takes,but the beauty that's also in it and
the freedom that comes through it.
And so, It's just something that I thinkmy heart has always kind of connected to,
even though it's taking me time as I grewup to kind of understand what it was about
that that felt so important and promising.
(04:27):
So I would say that's a fundamental value.
Yeah, that's good.
And I love the distinction youmade there that you value it, but
you're not perfect at it becauseyou're all striving to be better.
Yes.
But I love that that's a value of yours.
Yeah.
So my podcast centers around adversityand how challenges refine our character.
When is a time that you experiencedsome adversity and how did it shape you?
(04:50):
Well, I mean, one that just stands outis that, you know, I think, I think that
when I, one of the things that I didas a young person was try to establish
myself as legitimate through success.
(05:12):
And I married into a family that'svery academically successful.
And I was always a hard worker,but I didn't feel like I was
necessarily academically gifted orjust, you know, so I had a little
bit of insecurity about that.
And, uh, and so, you know, I thinkthe, what the adversity was is that my
(05:34):
first child was diagnosed with autismor she was on the autism spectrum.
And.
For me, it really kind of broughtright to the surface a kind of an
unarticulated value that was not goingto, I was not going to be able to
maintain, which is, you know, that yourchildren will prove that you're capable
(06:00):
or that, you know, I mean, I know thissounds so lame cause it wasn't one I
would have admitted to myself, but itwas like exactly my fear was there.
I had.
My in laws and their children, you know,and the grandkids and so on were just
exceptional and exceptionally bright.
And my first child wasa special needs child.
Now, I mean, I know that just soundsterrible, but I, but for my insecure self,
(06:23):
this was a kind of like, am I enough?
Is it sort of about me and sort of makingwho my beautiful child was somehow a
measure of me that I felt shame about.
And so it kind ofgratefully, to be honest.
(06:43):
Just brought right to the head this issuethat I had a choice to make about whether
or not I was going to feel ashamed of orfearful around who my child was or whether
or not I was going to truly accept himand love him and get over myself, right?
And get over this need or desire to provesomething to myself through my children.
(07:09):
And so it was a crisisand it wasn't just that.
There was also the crisis of, amI going to be able to parent him?
Am I going to be able togive him what he needs?
Is he going to have a fulfilling life?
I mean, there were a lot of things beyondthat particular issue, but it really made
me kind of have to address it sort ofstraight up and see how it was operating
in me and that I was not proud of it.
(07:29):
I did not respect it in myself.
I, I knew it was unloving and self focusedand that I had to grow up around it.
And it wasn't like the lasttime I confronted that issue.
I still confront the issue.
It still will come up for me at times.
And I'm like, Jennifer, we've beenthrough this, like, however, uh, I don't
(07:49):
know that, had I not had that sort ofacute sort of challenge to a desire of
mine, That I I'm, I'm in ways gratefulfor it because it kind of pressures you
to confront something and get strongerand more loving and more decent.
Yeah.
Wow.
I love that example.
(08:10):
I feel like that's very relatable becausea lot of people see their children as
reflection of themselves, but reallythey're such unique individuals.
And it's funny.
I hear people say, Oh yeah, this isthe child that makes me look good.
You know, because really theyare who they are and they're
beautiful in many different ways.
So that's, that's great.
Okay, let's move into what you do andI have heard your name for years and
(08:34):
years And so it's it's an honor toto be meeting with you and talking
with you So do you want to explainin your own words what you do?
And then we'll go into alittle bit of the questions.
Sure.
So, I Let's see.
The fastest way to say what I do is thatI teach and coach couples and individuals
about how to develop more capacity forintimacy and And what I mean by intimacy
(09:01):
is the ability to be an honest, openhearted connection with a beloved other.
And you'd think, well, intimacy,I'm all about, I love intimacy.
It's great.
You know, most of us think that we're,cause what we mostly like is validation
and we tend to like closeness, butintimacy is this sort of ability to
tolerate really being knowable andreally knowing another person who
(09:25):
is going to be different than you.
That's not there to just validateyou and make you feel good.
That sometimes is frustratinglydifferent than you.
And so it's very connected to developinga greater capacity to love and know.
And so I having grown up as a Latter daySaint and seeing some of the strengths
(09:48):
and liabilities of the faith traditionhave really worked a lot with Latter
day Saints around some of the meaningsthat many of us inherited that have
worked against developing greater.
capacity for love and intimacy and whatare some of our teachings and beliefs
(10:08):
that actually facilitate growing inour capacity to love and know another.
And so I do a lot of teaching andcoaching and podcasting on topics that
aren't just related to Latter day Saints.
Of course, that's just been a kind ofa focus of mine, but our very human
Challenges and very human questionsabout how do we really become
(10:32):
capable of a deep form of monogamy?
How do we really become capableof intimate friendship, which is a
capacity, it's something you grow.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's beautiful.
I'm so glad I had you describe it because,you know, I hear your name and it's
like, Oh yeah, she's a sex therapist,but there's so much more beyond that.
(10:53):
And, and the definition is huge.
So thank you.
So my season this year inmy podcast is identity.
So I was wondering how identity relates tosexual activity in marriage or intimacy.
Oh, that's a good question.
So, you know, it, it very much relatesfirst of all, to the question of
(11:16):
intimacy and because how we feel aboutourselves And our ability to sustain
our sense of self while we're inhonest connection with others is highly
related to our capacity for intimacy.
And so when we have a fragile sense ofself or our identity is kind of limited,
(11:40):
we kind of will do one of three things.
We'll either avoidintimate connection, right?
We just, we might be sexual, butwe don't let our spouse in on
who we are and how we feel and.
We limit the amount of contact or wego and try to get love and validation
(12:01):
and approval so you can even be higherdesire for sexual contact, but it's
coming out of a neediness, like, I wantyou to love me and make me feel okay
about me, or you can see what I say.
You avoid your pressure or you just outof your need to feel needed or your need
to feel that someone feels okay about you.
(12:21):
Okay.
You maybe go along with and you're sexual,but you're not really wanting to be there,
but you do it because you don't wantthe displeasure or the lack of approval.
And so we can do any of these things,but of course, if you're in a committed
relationship and it's built on afoundational premise of attraction and
(12:47):
desire and sexual exclusivity, Right.
Then our challenges around how doI actually create something that's
mutually desirable and how do we createsomeplace where we can actually be
together, those challenges around yoursense of self or your identity come
(13:07):
up right away in intimate contact,because, you know, if you're struggling
with your sense of self, it's going toplay out in either high and low desire
dynamics or very avoidant sexuality.
Or just very limited intimacy.
So, so much of the work that I'm doingwith people is about helping them really
(13:29):
look at the stability and the solidnessof their sense of self and what their
intimate partnership is revealingabout where they're weak in this way.
And so I kind of use thecontext of a couple to work
with the individual's growth.
Yeah, that's great.
And.
That kind of leads into the nextquestion of what obstacles are there
(13:53):
to, sorry, let me say that again.
That leads into the next question of whatobstacles are there to inhibit the sexual
relationship or functioning in a marriage?
Well, there, there's the kind of obstaclethat I think a lot of people know about
and assume, which is just sexual shame.
You know, you grow up in a context or afamily that says, you know, sexuality is
(14:15):
a bad thing and you know, only bad peoplewant to be sexual or whatever, and And
you can just not want to develop or exposethis part of yourself, but you can also
out of sexual shame, be a high desireperson that's even kind of compulsive
about sexuality because you're tryingto get validation from the other person.
(14:39):
So sexual shame is certainly one of them.
And that can come from a familyculture, a faith culture, but it's also
about a willingness to be intimate.
And what I mean by that, just kind ofgoing back to the core value I talked
about in the beginning, if you're goingto marry someone and have an intimate
(14:59):
relationship with you, they're not goingto just be applauding all the time, right?
They're going to be like,Hey, that kind of sucks.
I don't really like that about you.
And I think you're being kindof selfish or whatever it is.
And a lot of us need that withlike, how dare you, you know,
you're supposed to love me.
You know, you promised at the,at the altar that you were
going to love me no matter what.
And we don't really want.
(15:21):
To confront that.
What would be difficultabout living with us?
What would be undesirable about us?
What, you know, how we'reactually impacting our partner.
And so intimacy doesn't always feel good.
It actually pressuresus to face ourselves.
And so if we're unwilling to dothat, because again, it takes a lot
(15:42):
of courage and it takes humility.
It takes a willingness to say.
Okay.
You may have a point.
And, and to let your ego be lessimportant than what is true.
And so that takes courage.
And a lot of people have courage.
I mean, I, I've worked with people who'vecome out of the most dire situations,
(16:03):
but they have a lot of courage andthey're willing to face things honestly.
And they're willing to liveas honestly as they can.
And they have a lot of faith in.
In the reality of goodness, you know,so they, they really push themselves.
And then I've worked with peoplethat have come out of pretty good
situations, but their ego is primary.
(16:24):
They don't want to take the hitof saying, look, I really am doing
something that's hurtful or wrong.
And instead they stay in a kind ofvictim entitlement where they're
just always blaming everybody else.
Uh, their spouse included for theirproblems and they don't really grow.
So while a lot of people say theywant intimacy and what they really
(16:47):
want is approval and you know,most of us don't want intimacy.
I mean, intimacy can be prettyharrowing sometimes because it's a
willingness to be honest and knowable.
Yeah.
So what happens when you feel likeit's your partner's work to do?
You're, you've done the work,but you're waiting for your
partner to kind of catch up.
You just have to be patient and,and have a conversation about it.
(17:10):
Sure.
That's kind of a tough questionbecause first of all, a lot of us
think we're just waiting patientlywhen in fact, you know, we're not as
charming as we may think, or we maynot be as far ahead as we may think.
What I do think is often true is thereseems to be an imbalance in desire
to address the relationship, right?
So one person's just like, I don'twant to deal with your unhappiness.
(17:35):
I don't want to deal with the marriage.
It just, you know, let'snot talk about it and so on.
And you can't make someone love you.
You can't make someone grow.
You can't make someoneinvest in a process.
But you can be intimate yourself.
And by intimate, I mean, self revealing.
What we often do is go over and try tomanipulate or get our spouse to do it,
(17:58):
or, you know, try to, you know, pressurethem to do what we want them to do.
All of which is very understandable.
It tends to just justify resistance.
What's much harder is figuringout who am I going to be in this
situation, given that I don't havecontrol over my spouse's choices.
(18:19):
And we can be honest, you know, wecan say, Hey I am deeply disappointed
in your unwillingness to address ourmarriage or our sexual relationship.
I love you.
I want something better for us.
I recognize I am part of this problem.
(18:41):
But I cannot lie that this isnot deeply disappointing and
telling about kind of what you're,what you're willing to do here.
Now, I don't mean you'retrying to punish them.
I'm saying you're sayingsomething honest about what you
see, if that is what you see.
Okay.
Cause there can be many,many different scenarios.
Because what I have found is the lessyou going over the line and trying to get
(19:05):
the other person to want the right thing.
And the more you're willing to see whothey are and see yourself and control your
own choices with more integrity, the morethat actually pressures the other person.
Because as long as they see you tryingto get them to read this thing or
listen to this podcast or whatever, theydon't have to actually make a decision.
(19:26):
They can just either complywith you or resist you.
But if they see you moving forward, Right.
Or being honest and acknowledgingwhat you see that can be pressuring
because it makes the other personrealize I have a decision to make.
Am I going to step in or not?
Yeah, that's good.
(19:46):
So do you feel like when there'ssexual adversity or challenges to
overcome that it makes the couplestronger on the other side or what
have you seen in that instance?
It can, it certainly doesn't always,I mean, you know, some people meet
their adversity with resentment and.
Pessimism and anger.
(20:07):
You know, a lot of us come into crisisat some point in a marriage around what
we thought marriage or family life wasgoing to be, and then what it is, right?
Which is something more limited orsomething that's been disappointing.
And the real question of humanityis, you know, I teach a course called
strengthening your relationship.
And my thesis of this course is.
(20:29):
How you handle yourself whenyou're not getting what you
want determines the marriage.
Because in reality, marriageis about gaps of connection.
Disappointments.
It's not just like running off in thefield together and if you made the right
match everybody's just happily ever after.
I mean we wish.
But that's just nothingclose to what marriage is.
Marriage is about two differentpeople who were attracted to each
(20:52):
other because they are different.
Male and female usually, right?
Even in same sex couples, people arecoming together because they're different.
And so, that's just a lot of difference.
And so, the way you handle not gettingwhat you want or your spouse seeing things
a different way is going to really shapewhat the friendship or partnership is.
(21:16):
And so, Again, some people meet this withresentment and I'm going to go get you
know, go into another relationship orjust build intimacy with my friends and
close off or my children and shut you out.
Or I'm going to take my disappointmentshere and grow and figure out like,
(21:37):
who am I in this partnership?
Who am I in this sexual relationship?
What can I learn from it?
And I have a lot of couples who arewilling to buckle down and do the
hard work of looking at themselves.
Even in pretty dire situationswhere there's been infidelity or
deep deep, you know What could beconsidered a real justification
(21:57):
to not look at yourself at all?
That I've worked with people who arelike, I'm really everything's on the
table I'm willing to look at who wehave been how we got here and how
are we gonna go forward differently?
And when couples do that, I mean theyreally go forward differently like that
the break in the marriage or the crisisor whatever is often the sort of new
(22:19):
found it's the the old foundation kindof crumbles and they're able to rebuild
something stronger and better and reallycreate a more intimate more alive marriage
and you know very few people enjoy thecrisis but most people will look back and
say okay i don't know how else we wouldhave gotten here or That, at least at a
(22:46):
minimum, even if we could have learned itanother way, I'm grateful to it because
it was the springboard into a different,more mature, more intimate partnership.
Yes, I agree fully.
There's a quote that says, I wouldn'tpray for it, but I wouldn't trade it.
And so I love that just beingable to step past it and
rebuild in a more beautiful way.
(23:09):
And then I feel like that'ssuch a great takeaway.
Just how are you showing up in adversity,any kind, but it's been neat to look at it
through a sexual or intimate lens today.
And so I was wondering if you had afavorite quote or mantra that guides
what you do or that comes to mind.
There are so many.
Well, one that I say a lot, you know,I, I don't necessarily have like mantras
(23:32):
all the time in my head, but one that Isay sometimes that I think is absolutely
true is what you most need is as a youngyoung in quote, what you most need is,
and this is a paraphrase, this is notexactly it, but what you most need is
hiding in places you least want to look.
And that is often like it's in the crisis,it's in the rubble, it's in the adversity.
(23:53):
It's like, what I actually need tolearn here is, is hiding in this.
that what I expected fell apart,because it fell apart for a reason.
And it's hard sometimes to thenlook and say, what, what is it
that I need to see about myself?
And our human inclinationis to just get away from it.
It hurts.
It feels bad.
I don't want to see that, but our soulsneed it because if we can see what's
(24:18):
true, the truth sets us free, right?
The truth helps us grow.
into a person who's more solid, who'smore capable of being knowable, who's
more at peace with herself or himself.
So we need that information,but it never feels good, right?
It never, well, I should say sometimesmaybe it does, but if the truth is
(24:41):
you're just amazing, but usuallythe truth has information that's
invalidating of the world as we know it.
And that hurts.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
This has been a fabulous conversation.
I know I took away a lot of insights.
Where can people findyou and your courses?
Uh, they can find me at finlayson fife.
(25:03):
com and I have five online courses.
I've made them specific foran LDS audience, but they are
not LDS, uh, how to say it.
I have that context in mind, butthey're not really heavy on the,
on theology and things like that.
So a lot of people who arenot LDS by the courses.
I also have a podcast called Room forTwo where I'm working with couples, uh,
(25:26):
real couples, their voices are distorted.
They take on pseudonyms, but I'mworking with real couples around
relationship issues, very commonrelationship issues around sexuality,
marriage, raising kids and so on.
So, and then I just have a freepodcast, which is a collection of.
A podcast like this where I'mtalking with different people, but
(25:47):
you can find it all on the website.
So great.
Thank you.
That is so awesome.
I can imagine it's so helpful tohear other people getting advice
because you can take those thingsand apply them to your relationship.
So Thank you for thework that you're doing.
That's so fascinating.
I I just honor what you do.
Thank you so much.
Yes Okay Thank you for listening.
(26:09):
Speaking of podcasts, guests, andepisodes that I've been on, I was
on the Mosaic Network podcast.
Such a phenomenal network.
It is a space for authentic leadersto rise and share what they know.
So you can check out myrecent episode on there.
It was also, uh, an extension of thespeech I gave recently at the MOM Summit.
(26:31):
The shoulds that we carry.
Thank you as always to Blanefrom Ride the Wave Media.
Check out his podcast, The BestPodcast in Utah Radio Daybreak.
Make sure to follow me onInstagram at A is for Adversity
and I'll talk to you next week.
Bye!
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