Arrested Development: The Generational Trauma of Emotionally Immature Parents

Episode Transcript
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends the podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
Hello, so today we are going tobuild on our topic from last
week, which was immaturity, butthis time we are kicking it over
to Kibby's expertise and reallya huge KulaMind of , which is

(00:22):
emotionally immature parents andthe effects of that on kids and
what to do if that's yoursituation.
So I'm just going to kick itright over to Kibby KulaMind us
what can do for people withemotionally immature parents.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:36):
Lots of stuff .
So this has gotten so popularbecause it's like a mixture of
narcissistic parents andemotional toxicity.
It's like people are justrealizing that their parents
didn't give them the emotionalsupport that they needed and
that might've been a range fromlike their parents were
neglectful and just like didn'tgive them the support to like

(00:57):
emotionally abusive.
So a lot of you have reachedout saying that you struggle
with that and you're trying tomake sense of that as adults,
trying to navigate relationshipsand having your own kids, but
also realizing how emotionallystunted your parents were.

(01:18):
KulaMind, this is exactly whatwe do.
We're building a community forpeople who struggle with this,
with emotionally immatureparents.
And also, if you need support,like if you need one-on-one
direct coaching and help withskills with this, with
navigating your relationshipwith emotionally immature
anybody in your life, anemotionally immature loved one

(01:41):
it could be your parent, itcould be a sibling.
You might recognize it assaying you have someone in your
life who's toxic and you need toset boundaries with them or you
need to be able to like stepaway and get some space without
feeling a lot of guilt ormanaging their emotional
explosions.
That is all what we do andthat's all what we help with.
So if you just want to talk tome and see you know if we're a

(02:05):
good fit for what you need,check us out on KulaMind.
com, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-d.
com, and also you could book acall with me for free in the
link in the show notes.

Perfect, okay.
So where should we start?
Should we talk about, like,what emotional immaturity in
parents looks like?

Yeah, I think piggybacking off of what we
were talking about last time,which is that emotion
dysregulation like people havingtrouble managing their emotions
in healthy ways it's basicallyemotional immaturity has got a
lot of tension in romanticrelationships, as we talked
about, and friendships, but alsoit's extra damaging in parents.
So I mean just starting therelike emotional immaturity in
parents can be really reallydamaging to the whole family.

Yeah, I mean, the problem is like if,
when you're a little kid andyou're developing and you're met
with emotional immaturity, howare you even supposed to
emotionally develop?
Because everything that's beingmodeled for you is, I'm not not
everything, but like a lot.
You know, a lot of it isdamaging or chaotic, and so I
give big kudos to kids who areable to kind of overcome this.
Kudos to kids who were able tokind of overcome this.

(03:26):
Yeah, survive it really.

I think we talked about this in the
narcissistic parents episode andI think emotional immaturity is
a little bit less judgmental.
I'm only starting to reallyunderstand this emotional
immaturity in parents becoming aparent myself, because now I'm
really face to face with whatimmaturity actually is right
it's having these intenseemotions and really not knowing

(03:51):
what to do about it, and it'sawful for everyone involved.
The difference is that kidsactually learn and they actually
grow up hopefully and learnregulation skills.
So that's really the differencethere.

But well, and they don't have the same
kind of power over you as aparent does.
Yeah, well, I mean, in someways you can't leave them, you
have to do everything they say,just kidding kind of it's it's.

it's interesting because I was like,
why is narcissistic parents oremotional immaturity so popular
these days on Google searches,on social media?
Like it's just like such apopular thing to talk about.
And the way I'm wrapping myhead around it is that there's
it's like our generation havelike the boomer generation as

(04:43):
parents, right, and they hadtheir parents, they were raised
by their parents, and I thinkthat the generation above the
boomers, like our grandparents,were at war, you know.
So they were like reallytraumatized.
They either weren't there dead,saw horrible things, like it's
just like a, it was like aglobal trauma.
So survival was the main goalright, it was just.

Not only that, but they grew up in the
depression.
And, like you know, all mygrandparents grew up in the
depression and then livedthrough World War II and fought
in World War II.

So yeah, we really have not much.
I mean, we do have something tocomplain about, but if you
really think about that, oh thatyeah, and it's just like when
you, when you get to a placewhere survival is the most
important thing, there's only afew emotions and a few needs
that you have to attend to.
Right, you just, you just get ajob, you earn a living, you

(05:39):
have kids, you protect them, youmake sure there's a roof over
their head, like, like, that's,that's it.
And so my impression is thatboomer generation learned what
you do to be successful andhappy is get a job, a good,
steady career, keep moving up.
Um, get a family, 2.5 kids anda picket fence.

(06:00):
Um, go to good school, getprestigious things like good
marks, and then that's it right.
And although that generation, aparent's generation, didn't get
their emotional needs met, thesame way they didn't get to be
listened to and empathized withand taught to understand what

(06:20):
they're feeling.
It's like buck up, you can doit, just work harder.
You know, don't cry, I'll giveyou something to cry about.
Like that's literally like agrand, like a grandparents thing
they used to say like you know,I'll give you something to cry
about.
So then you just have, likethis ripple effects of this
emotional trauma coming down tous.

(06:41):
And so now we're like, hey,there's more to life than just
getting into a good college andgetting a high paying job.
We could get those things, butwe might be horribly depressed.
And now what?
So now we want to, now we'reinterested in mental health, now
we're interested in feelingheard and seen and emotionally
supported right.
So there's a real big culturalshift.

(07:02):
That's not anyone else's fault,but I think that our generation
is really feeling the effectsof having immature parents.

Yeah, I mean, I just think at like.
At any previous point inhistory, life was like loads
harder than it is today.
And this is the Benjamin.
Oh my God, how am I phrasingthe name of our founding father,
benjamin Franklin?
You know, I am a statesman, sothat my son can be a doctor and

(07:32):
then his son can be an artist.
Just you know?
Something like that.
And so there's this sense thatwe're moving towards our
self-actualization state.

(07:53):
Of course, the interestingthing is that it's unclear if if
we are moving towards thatstate or if we're moving into
like kind of a coddled statewhich sort of passes
self-actualization by and veersinto like other dangerous
territory.
But the point is like it feelslike parenting is supposed to be
kind of reaching thisactualized state like parents

(08:14):
have the well, not all parents,but a lot of parents have like
much easier lives than they didin the past, just because of
technology, um, and having moremoney and lower child mortality,
lower everybody mortality,higher literacy, more skills, um

(08:34):
and so.
But that has happened at suchan like an astronomically fast
rate that the parenting stylesof our parents are going to be
so different from the parentingstyles of us and so different
from their parents.
So I just I just think there'sa lot that we can't understand
about, like where our parentswere coming from and vice versa.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just it.
It seems a little bit moreclear that our generation and
lower, like Gen Z, we care alittle bit more about the
emotional health right, Mentalhealth is getting more popular
and there's just more awarenessaround happiness and being happy
whatever that means you kind ofsee it with our choices in

(09:14):
romantic relationships.
We're a little bit moreinterested, at least vocally,
looking for a partner whorespects you and cares about you
and makes you feel loved andeverything like that, and it's a
little bit less like I don'tcare, I just want to find a guy
with a good job.
I don't care if he emotionallyabuses me.
Right, that's a little.
At least we don't say that outloud anymore, so you're talking

(09:36):
about four stages.
Um there, um, to reallyunderstand emotional immaturity
without just pure judgment.
I really like Dr LindsayGibson's Emotional Immaturity
book.
Let me look at the actual titleof the name.

(09:58):
Okay, so the book is calledAdult Children of Emotionally
Immature Parents.
It used to be really popularand then it's gotten way more
popular now as like a resurgence, and the model is really nice.
It's really clean.
I think the book is really easyto read, relatable.
It feels like it has some likeevidence base without getting

(10:22):
too in the weeds of like eitherpopsicology.
Anyway, it's a very good bookbut the model breaks down four
different types of emotionallyimmature parents.
So the four are the emotionalparent, the driven parent, the
passive and the rejecting Right.

(10:45):
The passive and the rejectingright um, the emotional parent
is kind of what you, what itsounds like, almost kind of a
bpd flare, completely dominatedby emotions, um, self-absorbed,
that they need to be coddled.
Um, they're kind of dependenton other people, very childlike
and unstable, and then ifsomeone doesn't parent them or

(11:14):
rescue them, then they feel likethey're being abandoned.

So that seems like pretty BPD to me.
Yeah, I mean this feels likethe kind of construct we've been
talking a lot about on thispodcast and yeah, it certainly
takes its toll, because then thekid had to always defer to the
parents emotions yeah, insteadof having like a instead of

(11:38):
having their parent be like acontainer for them and you know,
being kind of solid anddependable yeah, yeah, I think
this is, this one is interesting.

I've gotten we've gotten a couple people uh
reaching out to cool a mind withthese, this emotional type of
parent and it's there's it?
people feel so torn about itbecause, um, the emotional
parent has this like childlikequality.
They they're like they're thefun parent, they like they're
the one that plays games and issilly and is unfiltered.

(12:10):
A lot of people say, like theyhave, my mom has no filter, my
dad has no filter to describethe emotional parent.
So they're like fun andcharming in that like childlike
way.
But then it's like that chaos,that kind of emotional chaos of
a toddler, right, it's just likesuddenly they snap and suddenly
they fly off the handle and yousee that the kids of these kind

(12:36):
of parents becoming reallyparentified.
They were really responsible.
They really almost have to takethe disciplinarian role right.
They have to keep the thedisciplinarian role right.
They have to like keep thingsin, in control.
Um, I remember having to likeescort my parent out of like
concerts and public.
Oh, my god, I was just thinkingabout like.

(12:57):
There was this one horribletime when we went to an elton
john concert.
Uh, this is probably the mostlike.
It just popped in my head.
We went to an Elton Johnconcert and this person my
parents stood up and screamed atElton John while he was giving
a speech about his AIDS charity.

(13:20):
I basically had to grab themand pull them down to the seat
so we wouldn't get kicked out.
It was just like.
It's like it's what I would dowith a toddler, right.
It's just like sit down, youknow, stop it, get yourself
under control, right?
And yeah, as you're saying,like, the power dynamic of this
childlike figure having thepower over you is especially

(13:45):
terrifying.

Yeah, I mean not not knowing if you can
rely on your parent to keep yousafe is really scary.
Having to forfeit your ownchildhood in many ways in order
to keep both you and yourparents safe is that's a huge
sacrifice.
And I, and then I think on topof this, like I know, one thing

(14:09):
I experienced just in in peoplewith this personality type is
like you have the anger and thefrustration, but you also have a
lot of guilt because you areput in the caretaker role, and
when you are the caretaker ofsomebody else who is childlike,

(14:30):
then it's hard not to feel amothering kind of relationship
with them and then it's so hardto pull away or to set
boundaries or limits becauseyou're like, oh, what can?
How can I just like, hurt thislittle kid?

yeah, yeah, it's like, oh, they're, they're
really destructive and theyactually have hurt me, or I'm
embarrassed, whatever.
But like they they mean well,or they didn't mean it, or they
don't know what they're doing,they can't control it, they
can't help it, right?
It is this like thishelplessness in them that really

(15:03):
pulls at your heartstrings andmakes that yeah, that that torn
feeling of like feeling like youreally want to set boundaries
and, just like you know, stepaway, but also feeling really,
really bad about it.
So, yeah, this is a hardpresentation.
It's really really tricky andit's interesting too.
I feel like the emotionalparents that I've heard of do

(15:28):
really well with their own kidsat younger ages.
So they might really enjoyhaving a baby or a young kid
because they're actually likewell matched.
But when the kid starts toindividuate, grow up, become
their own person, then thatemotional parents really
struggles because not only isthe emotional development

(15:48):
outstripping theirs, but theyfeel less and less like they can
relate to their child.

Yeah, I mean I would think that raising
a child if that's your emotionaldevelopment would be difficult,
because I mean, I can see theargument for like, yeah, we're
more similar in some ways whenwe're two, when the baby's two,
but a two-year-old does not givea shit about your feelings.
So it's interesting thinkingabout, like, how they would

(16:16):
handle that and maybe they wouldhave the wherewithal to say,
well, that's because they're twoand maybe that's why, as they
get older, it's like, oh, youactually have kind of a brain
and personality that I that hasmoral reasoning and that
therefore I'm more capable ofbeing hurt by but yeah, I don't

(16:39):
know how you can handle a kidsaying I hate you mommy, when
you don't have they cannot yepno, you're really actually like,
you're making me realizesomething, that it's like the
blind leading the blind.

And I, when, when, when jackson, my son,
loses, loses it, I go to a placethat's like hyper regulated,
like even a little bit too much,like I'm like both Alex and I
will just get really calm and belike it's okay, it's okay,
we're here, calm down, likewe're really like Ooh, we're
gonna Um.

(17:17):
But I didn't remember that whenI was a kid.
I maybe, like my memoriesprobably start around five or
six, so it's hard to rememberwhat happens when I was a baby,
but I remember getting upset ortantruming and then my parent
would also tantrum, like I havememories of us co tantruming
together, right, Like like.
Oh fine, you're going to do this.

(17:37):
Then I'm leaving, right, likeso, and Dr Becky um, it's like,
call it child psychologist who's, like you know, an influencer
psychologist.
She had a really nice metaphorfor this.
It's kind of like if you're onan airplane and you don't know
how to fly airplanes or how theywork and you trust the pilot to

(18:00):
be that person, and then youfeel turbulence and you go, oh
my God, we're like we're goingto fall.
Usually the pilot gets on the.
It's like it's okay, it's Northwind, that's coming from the
blah, blah, blah.
But if they go, oh my God,we're going to die, right, and
everyone gets upset.

(18:20):
It's like you want that parentto be the one who is at least I
don't want to say regulated,like not have emotions, but
regulated in the sense thatthey're not scared and they're
still in control.
They're still like wise mind orthe prefrontal cortex online
that everyone could be upset,but like, as a parent, I got

(18:41):
this, I got you, you're not indanger, you know.
Like this is a feeling, it willpass, we're going to be okay,
and the emotional parent can'tdo that.

Yikes, that is such a good metaphor.

Okay.
Driven All right, yes, yes, thedriven parent.
So this, the driven parents,interesting, it's like.
It's kind of what you imagine,really goal oriented.
This feels a little bit likethe critical, almost like the
the classic narcissistic parent.
Their success and prestigereflects on them, right, so

(19:15):
you're controlling very like,almost like be perfect in
society.
That's what I'm interpreting it, but it's very much like
achieve, achieve thingsinterpreting it, but it's very
much like achieve, achievethings.
And what I find interesting isthat we talk a lot of people
have talked about, oh, I thinkmy parent is narcissistic.
But if you really look into thedifferent kinds of narcissistic

(19:38):
parents, there's that likeemotional parent, who's
self-absorbed, right, like myneeds are more important, oh my
God.
But then there's the other kindof parent narcissistic parent,
who's self-absorbed but is likeI care about meeting standards,
right, and I feel like those getmixed up a lot because they are
.
But there's actually thesedifferent subtypes.

(19:59):
That is interesting.

Why is this considered emotional immaturity
?
For the parent to be reallyachievement oriented?

That's really an interesting question.
I think that it's to theexclusion of the other parts of
the healthy emotional behaviors.
Right Like it's, so it's okay.
All of these are okay to beright to be like passive, you
know, like to be emotional isnot a bad thing.
But if it's like a dominant, ifit's a dominant parenting

(20:34):
quality, that that is what allyou have, instead of actually
seeing the kid and responding totheir needs and emotions, and
all that matters is goal,getting a goal, then that's the
immature part.

Yeah, I mean, I see, I certainly see how
it's a problem.
I think I'm trying tounderstand it as like
emotionally immature.
I mean I suppose if you are, ifeverything is sort of
sacrificed to to meet, um,everything is sacrificed at the
altar of achievement, thenthere's a kind of uh like

(21:12):
undeveloped, or um, like yeah,like an undeveloped sense of
like, yeah, like an undevelopedsense of life, success,
components of happiness likewhat I mean it's kind of like
using achievement as a proxy forhappiness yeah, for happiness,

(21:34):
or connection or anything, oranything else without seeing the
pitfalls of that and thelimitations of that, I guess
yeah, going back on what we saidlast time in our last episode
emotionally immaturity.

Emotional immaturity is a lot about one
thing.
It's a lot about not ignoringcomplexity and nuance and being
really simplistic and being likethis is all good and this is
all bad, you're an enemy, you're, this is the victim, I'm good,
I'm good, right, and so there'sa lot of in in making these

(22:08):
simple judgment, emotionaljudgments.
It's wiping out a lot of thehumanity and the and the like
personhood of the kid yeah, Isuppose it also puts the.

It's like it's sort of an external locus
of control, like if I achieve,or if my kid achieves, then
we'll be safe, we'll have thestatus we need to survive like.
There's not much of an internalsense of like I can accept it's
, it's we must achieve in orderto be respected, admired, and
then like safe in the socialworld.
And there's there's not much oflike.

(22:43):
No, we can be safe because wecan, you know, regulate and
understand each other andunderstand ourselves and and
kind of navigate through thisworld.

Because we have internal tools, and I think
also this is more of apsychodynamic term, but I think
there's like this narcissisticextension of yourself.
I think that's really theproblem, right, wanting your kid
to be successful or whateveryou know, that's that's one
thing, but to be like yoursuccess reflects on me and I'm

(23:17):
going to make you successful andI'm going to expect you to be
successful in this veryparticular way.
It's just another version ofignoring that kid's emotional
life.
Right, whether I'm freaking outand I'm very emotional, or if
I'm like you must do well onthis one thing you must get into
the college that I went to,right, it's still like me, me,

(23:37):
me, me, me.
And here's like the simple waythat I see it I'm just
completely ignore you as a wholehuman being with different
needs, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's a driven parent.
Um, then there's the passiveparent.
I feel like this is reallyinteresting.

(24:00):
This is one that's moreavoidant of conflict, almost
going to look like the niceparent, but, um, and I feel like
this is the kind of parent whotends to enable another, more
abusive parent, right, the onewho's just like, doesn't see

(24:21):
problems, let's just be happy.
Not there, maybe, physicallynot there, right, it's just like
ignores the kid's emotionallife by ignoring it and
sometimes even like pleasantlyso.

Yeah, it's interesting.
I was like I was thinking aboutthe menendez brothers when
you're talking about this and ohyeah, people are always like,
why did they shoot kittymenendez?
Um, but sometimes thatpassivity can do almost as much
damage as abuse, because you'relooking to this person to

(25:00):
protect you and care enough toprotect you and they're just not
there and they're like allowingyou know, allowing things to
happen.
I mean, I think in a way lessextreme version, this might be
the parent who doesn't regulatebedtime, you know, who doesn't't
discipline, who just sort oflike lets things unfold so that

(25:24):
the kid will not be mad at themor not object.
And the problem is then the kidgrows up without structure and I
remember once I had a friendwho had a daughter, but the
daughter lived like mostly withher mom and the daughter's 13 at
the time.
And I had this conversationwith her because my friend who
was her father it was very fun,he was very permissive and she

(25:47):
said to me she's like I wish hewere less permissive, like I
wish he um, I don't rememberwhat the example exactly was,
but I had never heard a kid, andespecially a teen, like want
more structure from theirparents like want discipline, um
, but yeah, she had picked up onthat, like because you know

(26:09):
that your parent uh cares and istrying when they contain you
what did that?

what did that person say like what kind of
active, active parenting do theywant?

I think she wanted regulated meal times and
bedtime and like rules where itwasn't just like hey, you're at
dad's house, time to party,like let's have fun and you know
like maybe homework help, um,just some sort of structure to
her day.
Like come home from school, dohomework help from dad, like he

(26:48):
gets food ready, what about aton?

kind of reminds me of um, like there's
just like a string of 90s moviesthat featured like this kind of
parent, like liar, liar, likejim carrey and mrs doubtfire,
like all you know.
All these characters were likeoh, they're like good,
well-meaning dads and the mom islike this, you know, like ball
and chain, like disciplinarian,but when, but when I watch those

(27:19):
movies now, I'm like dude, youcan't have like a zoo, come to
your house.
As for the birthday party andhaving, there's like there's one
scene in that, in Mrs Doubtfire, where like the symbol of that
things have gone awry andthere's not good parenting is
like there's one kid at thatparty, there's like animals
everywhere in the house andthere's a kid on the table like

(27:44):
dancing and that's a sign oflike, whoa, like.

It must be enormously frustrating for the
other parent too to have to bethe unfun one.
Yeah, I mean, who wants to bethe disciplinarian, you know?

yeah, I know, it's just so much easier to
walk.
Walk away like this is justlike pure avoidance, um, or just
like, oh, be happy.
That's also just as emotionallydamaging.
So just be happy, it's fine ohyour dad means.

well, isn't about just having some, some
creature in your house that justlikes you all the time and is
fun to play with Like you haveto?
You have to invest in the workto help that child grow up
effectively.

Um, this one is just you know what.
I guess I'm a little confusedbecause, um, this feels like the
passive parent, but it's alittle bit like.
It's a little bit it feels alittle bit more bitter, like the
rejecting, the rejectingparents, like I don't want to be

(28:53):
close to anyone, I want to bealone.
Um, everyone's getting in myway, everyone's like too chaotic
, messy and you have to listento me, right, it's just kind of
like family.
That's kind of how I picturethe rejecting parent, but it
does kind of feel like a passiveparent, but I guess a passive

(29:15):
parent has a little bit moreroom to be pleasant.

Yeah, but the passive parent can be fun,
right?
I mean yeah.
But, the rejecting parent isrejecting the child in some way.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

It's almost just like push away.
It's like not only justavoidance, but it's like pushing
away.
No, thank you.
Mm-hmm push away.
It's like not only justavoidance, but it's like pushing
away.
No, thank you.
And the example in the trainingthat I did on this, the example
of the rejecting parent isNancy, who is Tony Soprano's mom

(29:53):
and the Sopranos.
Who's just like this old lady,who's just like grumpy, who's
just like like.
Who's just like this old lady,who's just like grumpy, who's
just like, like, like grumpy,like the grumpy parent that
would suck to grow up with.
Yeah, I'd take passion drivenany day over someone who seems
like they have no interest in meyeah, yeah, but at least, at

(30:16):
least with a direct rejectingparent, you could kind of do
what you want right?
Like if they don directrejecting parent, you could kind
of do what you want right.
Like if they don't care aboutyou, you could kind of do
whatever you want, whereas thedriven parent wants to control
you.
They really care about what youdo.
They want to know who you'redating.
They want to know where.
Like, what job did you get?
You know, like they they'remore.
They're more meddlesome thanthe rejecting and passive parent
, wholesome than the rejecting apassive parent.

I mean, I'm trying to figure out what my
dad had.
He was pretty neglected by hisparents and kind of hated his
mother growing up and his momwould do things like sunbathe
nude in the backyard and havesex with other men in the house
and my dad would like see it.
What?

(30:59):
Yeah, Not so yeah, so my dadwas just.
My dad grew up in Bermuda andhe was just always like outside
playing, doing his own thing,and now he's not in touch at all
with his in any of his emotions.
So, um, he wasn't helped toemotionally or socially develop
at all.
Um, but I don't know if therewas a quality to his parents

(31:23):
that was just like you know, getaway, go away, or if they just
didn't give a fuck.

Yeah, maybe just like passive or neglectful.
I mean, I guess it's hard totell what people are unless you
see what these parents do.
When the child has a need, whenthe child is crying or needs
some support, what does a parentdo?
Do they walk away?
Do they say it's okay, be happy.
Or do they freak out?
Or do they say it's okay, youjust got to work harder and get

(31:54):
you know?
Like, what do they do inresponse to that emotion,
besides for validating and beingthere with that emotion?

Right, yeah , I just don't think they were
there for him.

I don't get a sense that they ever helped him
through an emotional experience.

I mean, maybe that's not true, but he
came home from boarding schoolone day and his father drove him
to a different house and saidhey, this is your step mom and
your three-year-old sister justhadn't told him for three years
oh my god, oh my god, what what?

I've heard of the story, but it is so crazy
when you say it.
How did he react in that moment?

I divorced your mom.
We're done.
My dad doesn't remember minding.
I mean, this is the thing.
There's something, there's adisconnect.
He doesn't remember.

He said I don't mind or he didn't mention
how he responded oh no, I'veasked.

I was like, are you upset um?
And he's like, no, I don'tthink so, like how the hell
could, because he didn't likehis mother.
So I see, I guess he was justlike cool, it's like an
improvement.
I would do this too, yeahthat's so funny.

Yeah, oh, poor guy, your dad's lovely too.
It's sometimes when you talkabout like why, why are you in
parts of your family, like youknow, most stoical, but actually
, like I find you guys reallywarm.
It's just like you don't likecollapse into distress.
Yeah, so you're just, like youknow, non-emotional in the

(33:37):
negative way.

My mom's emotional.
I mean I am emotional, it'sjust usually in response to like
personal distress versus likewatching movies and crying.
But I did cry and drinking.

But yeah, my dad is emotional in a way he
just can't.

I don't think he has any idea what to do
with other people's emotions.
Probably has.
Has any any idea what to dowith other people's emotions?
Probably has.
Nobody had any idea what to dowith his, so he was just like uh
, I guess I'll just go to thebeach and hunt crabs or whatever
if I'm feeling sad hey, I mean,that's really what we would
tell our clients too, like, ifyou can go to the beach and hunt

(34:18):
for crabs, do it like.

That sounds great.
But again, I get what you mean.
What would?
How do you respond when youwere upset or when when your
siblings were upset?

I mean, I remember him when I was really
young like holding me and cryingholding me and like patting my
back a couple times, but I don'tthink he would know what to say
.
I would always go to my momLike I don't feel like anything
was missing from my childhood oremotional development because I
had my mom, um, and she wasquite validating, um, but yeah,

(34:54):
and then my brothers probablyjust made fun of me.

Cool, yeah, that's what brothers do how do
you work through your emotionsthese days?

well, I mean I often vent to friends.
I mean I'll certainly cry itout if there's something to cry
out.
But I do a lot of ruminating atfriends.
I mean I try I try to keep thatcurtailed enough so that my
friends won't be driven insane.
Um, but I don't know.

(35:32):
I mean I feel like for most likelow level, normal stuff, I mean
I use like pretty healthycoping skills.
I mean I'm a huge cognitiverestructure, like I'm reframing.
I reframe shit constantly in myhead.
I think about like every singleangle, like is this personal?
Is it not personal?
It's probably not.
I try to not catastrophize orthings like that.

(35:54):
So I guess that's kind of likemy first response, um, but I am.
I mean, it's just like a lot ofthings I'm able to just kind of
say.
You know what.
I'm not going to think aboutthat right now.
It's not going to be helpful,but obviously, like the more
intense the thing is, the moreI'm likely to be like Kimmy,
listen to me, talk about thesame thing 800 times and you're
very good at being like how doyou feel about that?

(36:17):
Again, what other feelings?
are the same ones, okay tell methe same ones like okay, no, you
evolve like I think, that's whyI?

ask periodically because, like, when
you feel something like I couldsee that you've worked, you're
working through it, because,like, I'll ask you the next day
like how are you doing with that?
And you'll, you'll be like same, but then you'll have like
another insight into it.
So you do use your brain a lotwhen it comes to emotions.
Oh for sure, yeah yeah yeah,yeah, yeah, I think it's really

(36:50):
interesting how.
So thinking about like what?
How does it impact kids?
Like what happens to kids withemotionally immature parents?
Um, and I'm sure there's notjust four ways that these
parents are immature, but Ithink it's like the.
The idea is like they can'thandle emotional distress,

(37:11):
uncomfortable emotions, and theyavoid it in different ways and
they ignore the full range ofemotions or just like I'm going
to shut off and just like noteven engage in certain ones.
And so often in the book, in thebook of the about the immature,
emotionally immature parents,it talks a lot about how kids do

(37:35):
whatever they can to survivethis Right, and so naturally
they fall into different roles.
That, and they call it the roleself.
They fall into different rolesthat maintain the family dynamic
, whether it's to satisfy theirown needs or to make their
parents happy.
They like adopt a certain umrole in the family, and that

(37:57):
that ranges.
That ranges too, but there'sthese.
It could be like the, thegolden child who's parentified
right, the one who gets all theA's and is so responsible, takes
care of the whole house, like Ieven you know if I'm thinking
about a lot of families thatI've worked with, who are

(38:17):
patients that I've worked with,who have like, really like,
abusive parents or reallyemotional parents.
There's something about asibling or or them themselves
taking on the, the parent role,like they.
They they're ones who took themto school, to the other
siblings to school, or they arethe ones who calm down the
parents so that you know theywouldn't blow things up Right.

(38:38):
So there's there's sometimeslike the fixers, um, or there's
a scapegoat, uh, where thescapegoat is the one who takes
all the blame, right, and I feellike there's different
scapegoats.
There's there's a scapegoat oflike they're the bad child.
That, basically, is like blamedfor all the bad stuff.

(38:59):
But there's also the scapegoatof like this is the identified
patient, um, it's interestingwith family, family therapy,
I've learned that when there isone kid in the family, that's
the sick one, we gotta, we'rehere to fix this kid.
It's usually not just the kid,it's usually the system that

(39:20):
they're just pointing to thisone as the one to blame.
So that's so sad, isn't it?

Well, yeah, I mean, but that's why like I
mean.
That's why like when you like,oh my God, what am I trying to
say?
That's why, like when youwouldn't like, oh my god, what
am I trying to say?
Child psychology is usuallyworking with parents or like
family therapy, so that it's notjust like, okay, this kid is
like uniquely fucked, it's likewhat is what is happening in

(39:50):
this system?

that is, but that's not always to say that
like the family is to blame fora kid being having mental health
problems no, but it happens alot with dysfunctional families
right where um one one figure isgoing to hold all the all the
blame.
Um, in making sense of my ownchildhood, I was like talking to

(40:11):
my therapist a lot and thinkingand talking to some of my
childhood friends about this andI I I see this coming up.
I mean this is kind of the.
The tricky part of this, likegenerational trauma, of
emotional um immaturity, is thatI am getting more in contact
with um the the things that I'mworking through through my

(40:33):
parenting, and I'm terrified ofmy kid being the bad child.
And I didn't, I didn'tunderstand it at first, but I
got a call from our preschoolteacher and every time I got to
get a call from the school, I'mterrified.
And I'm terrified because I'mscared of them saying you know,

(40:57):
jackson did this and this andthis.
He's a bad kid.
Like you know, you have to fixit.
He's acting out and and I wasjust like obsessed with that.
Like every time I get a calland Alex is always like what are
you talking about?
Like it's going to be funny,he's a great kid, what's what's
wrong?
And I'm like why am I so scaredof that?
I'm like I think I really didadopt a scapegoat in some ways

(41:22):
like a scapegoat role.
There's a little golden childish, because I also like navigated
through things by being likeacademically focused, but I do
see myself as like the bad one,the rebellious one.
I do see myself as like the badone, the rebellious one, and

(41:46):
actually sometimes when I getvalidation and like approval
from systems or something, Ifeel like uncomfortable.
And yeah, I just realized, andmy childhood friend told me,
that I was constantly trying todo the right thing but I was
always seen as the bad kid by myparents, like they said.
I'll show you the text message.
She was like you know, you werealways called like disobedient,

(42:10):
too stubborn, too forceful, toomuch in some way, and I kept
trying to be better.
I just kept trying to be like agood kid and doing all the
right things.
I still got yelled at and Ithink I carried that until now
Like damn worried that I'm goingto pass it to my kid.

Was that from both parents?

I think I passively felt that from my dad
because he got this new familyand this family, in comparison,
seems so good, like they wouldjust sit and read together.
There's no conflict, those kidsare great, they're like lovely,
there's a lovely family, andI'm like this storm right coming

(42:57):
in, fighting with my mom, um,and having and like literally
getting kicked out of my mom'shouse and having to live there,
right.
So I was like I was like theblack sheep by proxy.
I don't think that actually, acouple times my dad told me I
was a bad kid, but I think lateron he still respected my
rebelliousness, um, so he heactually like didn't see those

(43:20):
qualities as bad.

But you're so set up.
I mean, I know how, like, howare you supposed to be in your
dad's family when you're dealingwith so much chaos at home?

I don't know.
I felt really bad because Ifelt like I was bringing the
black cloud, which I was toldmany times that I was.
That I and I was.
I like I would have a fightwith my mom and I would go over
to my dad's house and my momwould call and there'd be
screaming, you know, there Iwould just bring this, you know,
emotional chaos over there.
And so there's there was thisfeeling of like you know, kibbe

(43:59):
and her mom, you, you know, thisis going on now.
So I definitely felt like I'mthe bad, I bring badness to this
world.

It's just so obvious in listening to the
story that you don't bring thebadness.
It was the person who was thenpursuing you, kicking you out
and then pursuing you.

the person who was then pursuing you,
kicking you out and thenpursuing you.
Yeah, now I know that, as a39-year-old, having my own kids
and getting a PhD in clinicalpsychology, now I know that
maybe I wasn't all bad, maybe.

I contributed to the badness, but
I didn't make it Such a bummer.
I mean, I feel like most people, if they at least saw how you
turned out I haven't known youfor your whole life would be
like, yeah, dream daughter I wasa nightmare.

I really was.
I really was.
I tantrumed.
When I was a teen, my boyfriendand I would have screaming
fights on the street where I'drun sobbing.
I did that at age 23.
We'll see if we all think thatI thought were abnormal, but

(45:05):
yeah, I mean, I think I heldthat for a while, being the
scapegoat, and I think thatthat's what helped me.
Sometimes, when it comes todoing DBT or being screamed at
or something like that, I'm likeyeah, I deserve this, it's fine
, I'm used to this, I'm used tobeing screamed at or something
like that, I'm like, yeah, Ideserve this, it's fine.
Like, I'm used to this, I'm usedto being yelled at um, it's,
it's all right I know I feellike this I feel like this

(45:28):
podcast has become like kibberealizes levels of emotional
abuse, but yeah, it's weird whyI'm so drawn to this topic what

(45:51):
was your childhood like?

I was like, well, they wanted me to be thin
, but otherwise it's pretty good.
Kibbe, how was your childhood?

I mean, you had some stuff too.
I mean, like we didn't even getto the pranks that people
played on you.
We'll do that in another yeah,anyway.
Well, let's all downplay ourwhat we went through.
But back to the role self ofscapegoat.
The problem with the, theserole selves, I mean, I think we
all kind of have to do somethinglike, I think, at any family,

(46:24):
the kids, everyone you know hasa role, right, it's like this,
this kid's of the artist andthis kid's the, the quiet one,
right.
But the dysfunction is if thekids are locked into it.
Right, if you, if you like I dolike almost seek out situations

(46:47):
where you become that scapegoatagain, or that caretaker again
or the fixer, right, the goldenchild, if you're constantly like
I got to be this because that'swhat people want from me and
that's what will keep my mom anddad happy and my siblings safe
and me safe.
This is, you know, I got towhatever and not being able to

(47:08):
be like you know what, that waswhat I had to do and not being
able to be like you know what.
That was what I had to do tosurvive that family and to
appease my parents, who weren'table to handle complexity and me
becoming not the golden childor not that whatever.
But yeah, that healing willlook like exploring the

(47:31):
different parts of yourself thanthat role self.

Yeah, I, I would just think that, like if
you, if you, if this resonateswith you, it would be such an
eye-opener to be like, holy shit, like I've been playing out
this role based on like a familydynamic and have been either
like blaming myself for thingsor seeing myself in a particular

(47:56):
way just because of likesomeone in my family couldn't,
couldn't, give me the yeah, yeah, the stability I needed in the
warmth that I needed.
So we've got the entire oldscacapegoat and who else?

I mean, I think there are different ones.
There are, there's actually andthere's different.
Actually there's differentsubtypes of like, let's say, the
Golden Child, like there's thebeautiful one, right, you know
something about that, missbachelor my entire, all of my

(48:37):
siblings, were trying to be thatthough okay, so you all have
that role that.
No, I mean like I think didn'tyou mention that some of your
siblings had a little bit moreemphasis on their career or like
work competency siblings?

had a little bit more emphasis on
their career or like workcompetency, uh, only because my
two oldest siblings were themost academically successful.
But I think Andrew and I werepretty equally like obsessed
with the idea that I mean, likemy brother, andrew I think has
some damage that he wasn'tacademically like oriented um,
and he like calls himself theblack sheep of the family.

(49:14):
He happens to be very goodlooking, so like he it gets to
be the beautiful one.

But I don't, I don't think that was his
emphasis necessarily interestingsaying yeah, I, I think it's,
yeah, I think it's probably lessof like what roles come out and
more like the rigidity withthese roles and are the do the
kids feel allowed to becomedifferent types of people, right

(49:41):
?
The other, the other roles thatpop up are the invisible child,
which is also, I think iscalled the lost child, like the
one who's just absent, who triesto disappear in the background,
who tries to quote, like notdraw attention to myself.
That's why I hear my invisiblechild clients say, like I just
tried to be good and quiet andjust not draw attention to

(50:03):
myself, right.
And there's also likepeacekeepers or mediators, the
ones who are stuck sometimes inbetween mom and dad tell your
father this and this and this.
Or the one who, like I've had apatient who, like would
literally throw herself inbetween her parents to get them

(50:24):
to stop fighting.
Like would grab, like theywould threaten to, like you know
, call, you, call, you know whatwas it?
They were doing all sorts ofthreats to call the police, to
call like their company andbreak it all down.
So they have nothing, right,and she would actually have to
launch herself in front of themand grab their phones or hold

(50:46):
them down or something.
And this poor girl was like Ifeel so much anxiety around
relationships and work and Idon't really know why.
I had a pretty good upbringing.

We can normalize anything.

Yeah, it literally was normal for her.
She was like oh, this is whatparents do, like they were just,
they just fought a lot.

Yeah, well then, no shit, she doesn't want
to get married, I mean, or havea relationship subconsciously.
Yeah, I wouldn't be signing upfor that shit either, I know.

Yeah, it feels like, and I imagine how
hard it must be to imagine arelationship like that without
that mediator role, right, whenit's just like you two and all
the blueprint you have is liketwo people fighting.

Um, you know you're like, oh god, like a
ton of work if you know thatyou're the mediator, so you have
to be both that and probablygoing to be in fights like let.

Interesting is like they talk.
I'm really anxious about, youknow, getting successful at work
, getting this promotion Right,and they're like so driven to do
it.
And then when they start tofeel like, oh wait, this is a
coping mechanism and there'smore to me than just this coping
mechanism, then I think whenthey do a little healing, it's

(52:28):
interesting to watch them goback into their families for,
like, thanksgiving or Christmasand then adopt that role and
then feel like that anxiety orthat like almost kind of like
disappointment in themselvesthat they're like yeah, I had to
do that, I had to put on thatmask around them.
Yeah, so it's interestingaround them.

(52:51):
Yeah, so it's interesting.
Yeah, I think that.
Um, so, talking about like,what do you do when you have an
emotionally immature parent?
just you know, reaching out tocool a mind and getting us, or
how it's such a broad, it's sucha broad thing.

Right, it's hard to be like here's a tip
when it's like, well, what kindof emotionally immature parent
and like, what role did you play?
And, um, you know, how has thataffected you today?
And like, is this parentsomebody you need to set
boundaries with, or is thisparent somebody that's like you
know, like not causing massiveproblems in your adulthood?
So it's, it's hard, um, but Ido think like learning to talk

(53:31):
about these things and these out, like these elements in your
own development, can really helpyou be in relation to other
people, because if you noticesome of your patterns coming up,
or if you notice this rolecoming up for you, then it is
going to be enormously helpfulto be able to communicate that

(53:53):
helpful to be able tocommunicate that.

Yeah, yeah, I think that even just listening
to these different types andidentifying what resonates and
being like oh you know, it's.
Sometimes it could come witheither direction, either like
more anger towards that parentor more compassion, like're
they're this driven criticalparent and I just thought there

(54:15):
was a bad person who hated me,but actually it's like an
immature person who's likescared of emotional complexity.

Um, or you know sorry, no, I just wanted to
make a note about the drivenparent I.
It seems to me that there couldbe a cultural element here, and
I mean, for instance, we talkabout tiger moms.
That is like, as we don't youknow, that's that's referring to
like a specific, not a superspecific, ethnicity.
But I just wonder if sometimeswhat we're encountering isn't

(54:46):
necessarily emotional immaturitybut a needed adaptation to an
environment.
I mean, if you think aboutBeijing and how many people are
there, if you don't six, if youdon't accomplish things and
achieve, then you can have apretty poor standard of living,
and so some of this might belike this is how I've learned to

(55:07):
survive, and in this, in aflourishing society, you don't
need rigidity to the same degree.
But we might not be.
You know, your parent may nothave grown up in a flourishing
society.
They might have grown up in aplace where, if you don't
achieve, you're fucked, and sothey're going to pass that on

(55:29):
and so they're going to passthat on.

Yeah, I think that I think a big takeaway
from this conversation is thatthese may not be necessarily bad
people.
I mean some emotionallyimmature parents can be very
abusive and and like malignant,where they kind of enjoy and

(55:53):
have no empathy and actuallyenjoy hurting people.
But a lot of them can just belike little kids inside and
they've adapted and did whatthey can to survive and whatever
society dictated what thatmeant, right, like a driven
parent, okay, you just needed toget a good job to survive In
war times.
You can't be afraid or sad or,you know, wondering about your
inner life.

(56:14):
Like you've just got to likeliterally survive, right, so it
just.
It just means that there wassomething that was emphasized
more heavily which led to astunting and a less development
and less attention on anotherpart of them.
A stunting and a lessdevelopment and less attention
on another part of them.
All right, if they're, ifthey're so focused to getting

(56:34):
married and have a kid, theymight not be like right, like a
lot of like moms in the boomergeneration are just like I just
like wear makeup all the time, Ido my hair and I marry a guy
with a good, with a good, stablecareer and who could provide
and have two kids and make surethat they're fed and they go to

(56:56):
school Right.
And you know that's whatthey've learned to survive.
And there's other parts of them, like anger and sadness and
conflict about all that.
It's just like no, no, no, no,I'm not going to deal with that
conflict about all that.

It's just like no, no, no, we're not gonna
deal with that.
Yeah, so I mean there was a lotof compassion we had for these
parents because they were I mean, they grew up in their own stew
, right like they.
They got this way from, youknow, from their own set of
circumstances and anddevelopment and so you know, I
mean understanding.
That can be helpful.
But there is a lot of pain heretoo and there's, I think,

(57:34):
understandable resentment inmany circumstances and it's
really something to to work onCause when we're talking about,
like how your parents raised youman.
That has heavy, that hasimplications all over the place.

Yeah, for sure.
And I think there's a lot ofgrieving when it comes to like,
oh, my parent was likeemotionally immature and just
didn't give me what I needed,didn't give me those boundaries,
like it was too passive,couldn't regulate.
Like there could be somesadness of maybe for them, like
that's sad for them to have tobe that sunted, but also for you

(58:13):
, because you were looking forsomeone to guide you and teach
you how to deal with thesedifficult emotions that they
just didn't know how to fly theplane.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, kimmy .
Where can our listeners findout more about the roles, for
instance, in these types ofparents?

Yeah, I think that just check out this book.
I really, I really do love thisbook.
I'll say it again, I don't linkit to the show notes, but it is
Adult Children of EmotionallyImmature Parents by Dr Lindsay
Gibson, and, yeah, they justgive a really nice breakdown of
the different kinds ofemotionally immature parents,

(58:52):
what they look like and what itdoes to the adult kids.
And I think it's you know, thehealing process of this is
possible and I think the firststep that we talk about is
awareness and the grieving andthen also just exploring for
yourself the different sides ofyou, beyond the role self, like

(59:15):
where, if you were the fixer allthe time, like maybe there's a
time and place to not be thefixer but be the one who's cared
for, or to not do is, do not dothe common thing that people

(59:38):
tend to do, which is, oh, butthey mean well, they're your
parents, they love you.
I've gotten that over the yearsso much.
And I know where it's, I knowwhere it comes from, because
they're like, they can see thelove in the parent and usually
it really does look like amismatch, right, like these
parents who are emotionallyimmature, wanted like love and

(59:59):
want to do well, they're tryingtheir best but they just don't
have the capacity.
But there is sometimes, likethis, emphasis on, um, the roles
and the expectations of theroles.
Right, I'm your parent, youshould listen to me, even though
I'm acting like a child, youshould listen to me and I know
that there was a little bit moreemphasized in the generations

(01:00:20):
before.
Like, respect your elders.
Do this if you're the parent,never talk back to, but I think
we're, especially when you havean immature parent.
That feels weird.
It's like, well, you, youdidn't, you weren't like the
parent that I was looking for.
So why are you looking to me tofulfill my child role?
Um, but it also what it does iswipe out the emotional

(01:00:42):
complexity of the personhood.
Right, it's your, it's yourparent, it's your father,
forgive him, he means.
Well, he's your dad, you shouldtalk to him.
It's like, if he's abusive,right, then what you're telling
is that person is obligated tobe abused and I, I think that I
think that at this um, the waythat our society's values have

(01:01:07):
have evolved to be more aboutmutual respect and earned
respect, that whole role,obligation, doesn't have a place
anymore.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:16):
Yeah Well, I think that's a beautiful place
to end.
So check out that book andcheck out Cool Mind if this is
something you are strugglingwith.
Kb's program is designed forthese kinds of issues, and we'll
see you next week.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of

(01:01:37):
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