December 18, 2024 • 64 mins
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When you grow up in a household where love feels conditional, and your sense of self-worth hinges on meeting impossibly high standards. In this episode, we discuss the challenges faced by those who have navigated life with narcissistic parents. We explore the emotional scars left by such upbringing, including struggles with low self-esteem and attachment issues. We also discuss how our personal and clinical experiences fueled our inspiration to build KulaMind, a community platform dedicated to helping people foster healthier relationships and developing a sense of self-worth coming from a family affected by mental illness.
We discuss what narcissistic tendencies can look like in our parents, where societal pressures and a parent's unmet emotional needs often overshadow genuine concern. highlight the universal healing fantasy—a deep-seated longing for unconditional love and understanding from emotionally unavailable parents. This narrative is interwoven with stories of past traumas passed down through generations, emphasizing the need to address these patterns to heal and move forward. With insights drawn from Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) principles, we offer practical advice for balancing power and connection in relationships, stressing the importance of vulnerability and empathy.
Tune in to discover tools for healing from narcissistic abuse and reclaiming your self-worth. If you are struggling with this yourself, join KulaMind, a supportive community dedicated to guiding you on this transformative journey.
*Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn more.
Resources:
- Take this quiz to learn more about how narcissistic your parents were to you: Parent Narcissism Quiz
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, Little Helpers.
Today, Kibbe and I arereturning to our favorite topic,
but we didn't realize that whatmost of you are looking for is
actually help with this topic.
But in didn't realize that whatmost of you are looking for is
actually help with this topic,but in relation to a different
person.
So in doing some research forCooler Mind, we asked you all
who in your life do you need themost help with, and with what
(00:37):
disorder, and the overwhelmingresponse that we got was
narcissistic parents.
So today we're going to talkabout what are the effects of
having narcissistic parents andwhat might this be like for you,
for your relationships.
How might that show up?
And again like how maybe it'sbest to deal with your parents
(00:58):
or set boundaries with yourparents and maybe also empathize
with them.
So, Kibbe, I'll turn it over toyou first, Talk about what
you're developing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, I couldn't believe how popular the topic is
of narcissistic parents.
I think a lot of people arestruggling with this.
Talking to our community, whatwe've learned is people are
talking about parents who arereally self-involved and
emotionally unavailable oremotionally dysregulated.
So that could look likeborderline personality disorder.
(01:30):
It could look like some parentwho has an addiction, is just
like not around, not available,or just just so focused on their
own needs that they're notthere for the person.
So I think when people saynarcissistic parents in general,
they're meaning parents whoweren't emotionally there for
them.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I mean I think you know just from, like, my
interaction with people I don'tentirely know.
I think that's a good way todefine it for the purposes of
this conversation, becausenarcissism is a concept that is
so either overused or there'sjust a massive number of
narcissists walking around ourplanet and I don't know which is
true, but um, but at the end ofthe day, it's a spectrum, and
(02:15):
so all of our parents displaysome sort of narcissistic traits
.
I mean, mine do.
I will as a parent, but Iessentially don't see my parents
as people who couldn't put myneeds first.
And I think that's the majordifference when we talk about
truly narcissistic parentsversus maybe like boomer parents
(02:38):
who have certain expectationsof their kids, and really that a
lot of the hurt that comes inis noticing that, yes, at times
they seem to delight theirparents, at times their parents
make big gestures and declaretheir love and are basically
(02:59):
around, but there's just thissense that when push comes to
shove, in a lot of ways parentswill not put their needs of the
child first.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, that emotional deprivation seems to be a big
theme and people like us whostruggle with growing up in an
environment where they feelemotionally unappreciated right
(03:31):
Like you feel feeling unseen,feeling like they don't belong,
feeling really lonely, eventhough their family life might
not have been traumatic orabusive.
It just they grow up feelinglike they're not worthwhile,
they have low self-esteem, theyconstantly are chasing
emotionally unavailable partners.
So, cool Mind.
We're really focusing onbuilding what someone like that
(03:55):
needs, like the skills toactually be seen and be loved
and to take care of your ownemotions and to fill that void
in healthy ways instead of maybethose toxic cycles that people
get in.
So it's just a really near anddear thing to our hearts because
thinking about what we want forcool of mind, it's really like
(04:16):
how can we help people the waywe were helped?
I personally was helped with alot of therapy, a lot of really
good strategies and supportaround me, and I've really grown
up with a narcissistic home, soto speak, and had a lot of
really unhealthy relationship,attachment patterns, so to speak
, flip-flopping from likeanxious to avoid it and all that
(04:38):
stuff, but really learning theskills I actually had to love
and be loved and I think samefor you right.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean I would not classify my home as
narcissistic, but a little bitgrandiose in certain ways.
But of course I've struggledwith men and dating and feeling
valuable to other people andincompetent and asserting my
worth at times, and I think thatthat's a very common story, so
(05:07):
it's.
I mean, I think most people canreally use these kinds of
strategies and support.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
So you know, before we reallydive into this topic, I'll say
that in Kula Mind we are we'rebuilding a community where we'll
do webinars and a lot of give,a lot of resources and
educational, like Q&A's, sopeople can learn what narcissism
is, what is self-esteem, whatare relationships, how do you
actually make changes in those,but also through one on one
(05:36):
coaching and really anything youneed.
So we're really buildingwhatever people need to really
learn these skills and make themstick, building whatever people
need to really learn theseskills and, like, make them
stick.
If you're curious about that,you could go to coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
Or actually now we put in theshow notes a place where you
could text me and Jacquelinedirectly.
(05:56):
So there's like a send a text.
Yeah, there's a send a textbutton at the very top, just
like tap on that, you could talkto us and just, even if you
want to, just like ask questionsor say hey, just shoot us a
text there.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay, well, so when we're like thinking about this
topic, I got a lot of questionsfrom followers that I want to
answer within this episode, andthe big thrust that I got from
the questions was how do I makethem understand that what
they're doing is wrong or thatthey're hurting my feelings or
(06:29):
something or other?
And I don't know if this iswhere we want to start with this
episode, but I do want toacknowledge that I think a big
part of growing up with anarcissistic parent is that your
own perspective doesn't getvalidated, taken seriously,
prioritized, and so there's thishuge just I mean, there's a
(06:52):
really big need to be heard byother people and a kind of
potentially dysregulated way ofgetting heard.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It almost seems like I mean the way it felt like for
me was.
It almost seems like I mean theway it felt like for me was I
didn't really get someone totake care of me in the way I
needed to when I was a kid andso I really really want that.
I really really wanted thatgrowing up, but then didn't
trust it when I got it.
So there's this real push andpull of like I need to be
(07:22):
something special or dosomething special for anyone to
actually give a shit about meand then if I don't do those
things at full throttle all thetime, my whole world will come
crashing down and no one willactually want me.
Then I wouldn't trust actualintimacy, Like I wouldn't trust
act.
When someone says they love me,I'm like, yeah, you know, I
would feel good.
(07:42):
But there's a back of my mindthat was like, yeah, but you
know, yeah, but it's, it's onlybecause I did something that you
liked.
It's only what I did for you.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, it's it's confusing because, in a way,
like friendship is about whatyou do for other people, like if
you are a good listener, if youare a good carer, or if you are
a good listener, if you are agood carer, or if you are a
generous, or if you arecharismatic whatever.
You know what I mean.
Like if you have something tooffer, then another person is
(08:18):
going to want to pick that upyou for what you produce, rather
than who you are.
That it's maybe.
Just it's hard to know.
Like, yes, I give things andthat's important in a
relationship, but is there, howdo I know that there's any love
for me as a human being in thisas well.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, this is something we talked about before
with unconditional love.
Is that even real?
Like, if you are a terribleperson, if you're a terrible kid
, you know, do you deserveunconditional love?
I mean, I don't have the answerfor that, but looking at the
literature, the five differentcharacteristics of a parent
who's narcissistic is one, lackof empathy, two, grandiosity.
(08:59):
Three, criticism.
Four, control, manipulation,and five, parentification.
So really all of those differentqualities are about like this
person wants to needs some sortof like, admiration and certain
kind of status or certain kindof special status in order to be
(09:22):
worthy of in its special status, in order to be worthy.
And so what they do to the kidis that they devalue them like,
really criticize them wheneverthey don't fulfill that standard
, really focus on the showinessand don't attune to the kid's
needs, right.
And so I still don't know theanswer about the, you know,
(09:43):
unconditional love.
But I I do know, being a parent, you really have to work hard
to put their needs above yours,like if you're tired, if you're
bummed out, if you need likeaffection or whatever, and that
kid is crying or in distress,like you need to show up for
them, like you need to just likeput your stuff aside and then
(10:04):
and then help the kid.
I mean not 100% of the time,but like that's the role of the
mom, and if they don't do that,then this like reversal happens,
where the kid becomes theparent.
Gratification, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I it's.
It's interesting.
I was thinking about thisdistinction earlier.
I was like okay, my parents,when I said my family's a little
bit grandiose.
What I mean is that there is asense that the whole family is
supposed to uphold the egos ofeach one of the members, so like
we are all supposed to bebeautiful and successful and
(10:42):
therefore reflect on like eachother that way, like it's overly
important.
Well, but it's.
But it's interesting, right,like yeah.
So yes, there's pressure to tobe a certain level of a couple
of characteristics, yeah, but Iwouldn't say the coldness is
there, the control, themanipulation, the
parentification, thevictimization, any of that,
(11:05):
which is why, to me, my familyjust feels a little bit boomer,
like, um, there was hugepressure to be thin all
throughout, like the 90s and the80s, and I think that that's
like part of my family and wewere taught like you should do
(11:29):
big things, you have big brains,use them, don't.
And a lot of this I'm like I'mprobably going to pass on to my
own kids.
I mean maybe differentlystylistically, but I am going to
have expectations and I knowyou'll have expectations of
Jackson, expectations, and Iknow you'll have expectations of
Jackson, um.
So so yeah, in a way, I'm like,okay, I've had to live up to a
(11:51):
standard that is sometimes alittle bit unforgiving, but when
I haven't reached it, have Igotten criticism?
Yes, but I wouldn't say I'vefelt loved less, um, and I
wouldn't say I've had to, likeapologize for not meeting that
standard yeah um or like and andthat's a weird thing to say
(12:14):
like I'm sorry, mom, that I'mnot thin enough like, of course
not.
but at the same time, I think alot of people who grew up with
narcissistic parents findthemselves in this role where
they are constantly apologizingfor existing, constantly
apologizing for not being thenarcissistic supply that they
are there to be.
If they produce any kind ofnarcissistic injury in their
(12:38):
parents, then it can be WorldWar III and they have to grovel
and submit and erase themselvesin a certain way, and when you
do that long enough, that'sreally dysregulating.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean you're a really interesting example
because your family does havehigh standards for social
markers of success, right Likeprofessionally and physically,
and yet they still have thesecret ingredient of like loving
you and loving their kids right.
(13:13):
So what did that?
When you said, if you didn'tmeet that standard, they might
say something, but you didn'tfeel less love Like what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
something.
But you didn't feel less love.
Like what does that look like?
Um, I can tell that my parentsor sibling I think it's really
just one sibling are botheredthat I should be a little bit
hotter, but and they might saysomething about it.
But ultimately it's not likeI'm frozen out.
(13:45):
It's not like I don't make mymother like laugh with delight.
It's not like my mother missesme any less or wants to see me
any less.
And when I said to her, I saidto her she sent me this message
after I'd gained weight.
That was like truly kind ofabsurd.
And I said to her somethinglike mom, you're acting as if I
have cancer and I'm refusingchemotherapy.
Like when she talked to meabout why I wasn't losing weight
(14:08):
and she's felt so guilty aboutthat ever since.
And she's brought it upno-transcript.
(14:36):
And you know, like I didn'tmeet her standard for sexual
chastity either.
But when I talk about it shedoesn't like get cold and
rejecting and disdainful.
She usually actually jokes withme about it and she has done a
lot of work.
I can tell to like come aroundand accept it, even though it's
(14:59):
something that she was raised tofind really important and
something that makes her verynervous, like if her daughters
have sex with men who don't lovethem, you know.
So, yeah, I I feel like I'vepushed my mom's standards in
many ways and ultimately she'svery proud of me, but I never
felt like I was truly riskingany kind of real rejection.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Did you feel the emotional responsiveness Like
when I was reading the researchum narcissistic parents are high
in control and standards andcriticism, but they don't
respond to their kids needs.
Do you feel like?
I mean, what does it look likewhen you're, when you have a
(15:45):
need and you turn to your family?
What did they?
How did they respond?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
They take it serious.
I mean, the person I wouldprobably go to is my mother, but
I've gone to various members ofmy family.
They take it seriously, theymake time for it.
She'll, she'll talk to meexhaustively about it if I need
her to, and sometimes shedoesn't get it quite right, but
she, you know, the time is there, the energy spent is there.
(16:11):
Um, she doesn't like turnaround and make it about her or
say, well, this is, you know,when I went through this, unless
it's productive, um, and youknow, I mean I think that
there's like this is apsychobabble term, but there's
like affect matching, you know,I mean I think that there's like
this is a psychobabbly term,but there's like affect matching
.
You know I mean she's notwriting me off or sort of
scoffing at me or telling me toget over it that's awesome
(16:34):
that's nice yeah, no, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, I mean I had, I had.
Like it's weird because when Ireally reflect on it now, I come
from a long line of narcissists.
I mean my dad was had a lot ofnarcissistic traits, my mom does
, and my grandmother, my mom'smom, definitely did, and my
mom's mom was the quintessentialnarcissist.
Um, I loved her like I really.
(16:59):
I really she was a really nicegrandma and usually narcissistic
parents are actually reallynice to the grandkids because
they don't have.
The problem with the kids isthat the kids.
You'll see when you have kids,jacqueline, it's like this.
What is this called?
It's like ego extension,narcissistic projection, that's
(17:19):
what it is.
Narcissistic projection whereyour flaws, like the kid, is
like yourself, so you are justas hard on them as you are on
yourself and like yeah, so theybecome like an extension of you.
So that sucks if you are hard onyourself, but with my grandma
she was really nice to me butshe, um, was like a tiny little
(17:41):
asian chinese lady and when Ireally think about it it's
pretty amazing.
She was like a tiny littleAsian Chinese lady and when I
really think about it it'spretty amazing.
She was like a seamstress,tailor's daughter in Cincinnati,
just like.
I think she was abused in manyways and worked her way up to
Hong Kong and the life that sheled and she was really like
(18:05):
social climbing in some ways,like she really liked um, she
really liked it when peoplepraised her.
She really you know, uh, youknow, like got in with people
that she thought were highstatus and she would be really
withholding of her affection.
She would with my mom and hersiblings.
(18:26):
She would praise one and thenshe would praise another one to
one of the kids.
Right, she would like tell mymom how great her sister was and
then, like talk shit aboutother kids.
So she would like curry favoramongst the different siblings
and they would have to reallywork hard to get her attention
and so she was like this largerthan life person that everyone
(18:47):
was like fighting for theirattention and so that just left
not much for the kids and I sawthat as a survival mechanism.
Right, a lot of narcissists Imean, for as much as we talk
about the toxic blah, blah, blahnarcissism is often like a
defense mechanism, right, it'slike I went through trauma or
had a bad background and therewas just one thing I could do to
(19:10):
actually keep me safe and loved.
Like I'm gonna do that hard andmake sure everyone else that I
love does that hard.
So my grandma definitely wasthe narcissistic parent and I
could see the effects on my mom.
Like I could see how she willalways go through life and this
is the thing that breaks myheart she'll always go through
life feeling unloved yeah, Imean you could say that most of
(19:36):
narcissism is a defensemechanism.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Um, I mean, there's healthy narcissism but, yeah,
yeah, when you, when you don'tfeel as though who you actually
are is something that can beloved by other people because
that's how you've been treatedthrough your formative years,
then you're going to figure outwhat you think can be loved and
project that as much as possible.
(19:59):
But being loved for aprojection of yourself isn't
very filling, um, and it'srickety and liable to be
fractured and when that happensit's extremely threatening.
What if you can see through theprojection to the unlovable,
(20:21):
damaged self inside?
And then what if I have to seethrough the projection towards
the unlivable, damaged selfinside?
And then what if I have to seethrough the projection towards
the unlovable, damaged selfinside and can no longer be the
projection, then what does thatmean?
I'm now completely vulnerableand threatened and, and that is
just such a tension that doesn'tleave a lot of room for
anything else.
(20:42):
You know, it's interesting whenI was thinking about would
narcissistic parents ever putthe needs of their child above
themselves?
I could see a narcissisticparent taking a bullet for their
child.
I could see narcissisticparents putting the needs of
their child above their own incertain ways, but I don't know
if they can put the emotionalneeds of the child above their
(21:03):
own in certain ways.
But I don't know if they canput the emotional needs of the
child above their own, becausethat's what's actually
threatened in them.
I could see putting theirchild's physical welfare above
their own, their safety abovetheir own, but the emotional
needs when, when you spend allof your time and energy
(21:26):
protecting yourself from everbeing seen and suddenly you are
being criticized for whatsomething you did, then that is
that's the threat.
Is there?
I'm being seen, not the project, because the perfect projection
is perfect.
The projection can't doanything wrong.
(21:46):
So if I'm being criticized, itmeans I've been seen.
Oh my god, absolutely not.
That is what I protect myselfagainst at all costs.
I don't go there.
You deal with that on your own.
You that those must be your badfeelings.
Projection that that wouldn'tdo that thing.
That's not possible.
It must be your bad feelings.
Projection that wouldn't dothat thing, that's not possible.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It must be your fault .
Go Interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
So you're saying that emotionalneeds are like vulnerability or
are like I mean it's also likewhat do you mean by emotional
needs?
I think that could be really.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I mean, if somebody like narcissism, it's
like we act as if it's this veryclear-cut thing, but I don't
think it.
If we think about my ex-fiancee, for example, yeah, it's not
like all of my emotional needswere neglected.
If I needed a hug, if I um hada shitty day, uh, if I needed
(22:45):
someone to celebrate with me, hecould usually do those things,
unless it came at a cost tohimself, and especially if the
cost to himself wasacknowledging a defect in
himself.
And that's the one thing thenarcissist cannot do Interesting
.
So if you're a narcissist and Isay to you, hey, it hurt my
(23:08):
feelings when you x, or like,hey, could you do the dishes?
There's a sink full of them.
Why you know?
Like, why can't you help memore?
Or I need you to show up for mewithout inserting yourself,
like, do you know what I mean?
Like, if there's any kind ofcriticism behind the need, it's,
(23:29):
it's unlikely to be met.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, because it's so fragile,right, their sense of self-worth
is so tied to a specific thing.
And it's interesting thinkingabout your ex because your ex
and I both I remember relatingto him with the narcissism being
around your professional everlike your intelligence or your
(23:55):
professional output, right,productivity in some ways, like
him being useful, him being likedoing things well or something
was something that was veryproud of.
So like, if that one thing wascriticized, I'm not just that,
you know, it's also control overyou was really important too,
right.
That's like a narcissistic thing.
They need control over anotherperson.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
If I were his narcissistic supply, if I was
the person who provided him withan idealized view of himself,
for one thing, I mean, I thoughthe was like a perfect human
being when I first met him.
Um, if I was this like prettygirl that made him look good and
like made him look like hecould get high status women, um
(24:42):
then it was very, verythreatening.
If I would go elsewhere withthat.
He was very afraid that I wouldcheat on him.
I was very afraid that I wouldbring that supply to somebody
else and therefore bring himshame and destroy his ego and
yada, yada, yada.
I'm not saying that's the onlyreason people fear that they'll
be cheated on, but when you'redoing everything in your power
(25:02):
to control another person, itsuggests that there's something
more to the story than just yeahthat would be a betrayal of our
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's been so long since we've talked about him and
now all those memories areflooding back, so interesting.
But yeah, it's like the, theother person, the narcissistic
supply, the kid, the girlfriend,whatever.
It's this feeling of beingobjectified, right, it's like
your emotional needs might bemet or your needs might be met,
but if it's, if it's in serviceof them, right, like if he meets
(25:37):
your emotional needs and it'slike responsive and loving and
whatever.
When you're, when you're sadthat that keeps you close, right
, it's like the stuff that wouldI mean, I it's.
It's weird because I'm starting,it's starting to feel like an
addiction, right, I've kind ofsaid this before but, it's this,
it's this sense from thisparent, like there is one thing
(26:01):
that they need, like food, likethey're acting like they're
starving and they need food.
And when, when you're starving,all you can think about is just
fulfilling that basic need.
And it almost seems like whenthere's, when narcissistic
parents are starved of theadmiration or validation or
attention that they need likefood, everything else dims.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And it's.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's funny because it's like what was it about my
mom that felt similar now toback then, when she was drinking
?
Like things that are changeddramatically since she's gotten
sober.
However, there's somethingabout it that felt that still
feels really like.
I still feel it a lot and itreally bothers me.
Um, and it's this feeling thatthere's something else that is
(26:48):
more important than what's goingon with me.
Right, like if I, if I, if myemotional and before it was
alcohol and now it's like love,which is confusing because it's
like she's warm and she's lovingand she is responsive and
empathetic, and yet I sense thatit's not about me, which is the
most annoying part, like whenshe says I love you, or when I I
(27:10):
even want her and need her andshe responds to me.
It's, it feels less like thisis a mom who's paying attention
to their kids needs and they'regoing to do it.
It's like she's finally gettingthe food, she's getting a snack
, and she's like all in, um, andI resent it, so it's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
When we think about addiction, people become
addicted to the thing.
Sometimes it's because there'sactual physical addiction that
goes on.
But in general when there's anaddiction, you're addicted to
what makes you feel safe.
So alcohol makes you feel safebecause you can.
It helps you avoid hardemotions and hard experiences,
(27:50):
it helps you avoid socialawkwardness, it helps you avoid
shame, it helps you avoid allsorts of things, right, because
you're just drinking, you'rejust fucking yourself up, you're
putting yourself out of yourmisery, and when that is taken
away from the addict, there's abig gaping vacuum there.
(28:15):
What now is going to make youfeel safe?
Well, hopefully a whole bunchof other stuff that comes in,
like great social support andmeaning and a fulfilling career,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But if you don't really fillthat back up, it's hard.
If you don't really fill thatback up, it's hard.
And if you're narcissistic,you're narcissistic probably
(28:37):
because you have a big gapingvacuum in your life from early
childhood and so, yeah, I meanthe addict is so fully focused
on getting the thing that makesthem feel safe they are all
threat detection that if that'staken away, it's chaos, there's
lying, there's violence, there'syou's, you know, tantrums,
there's a lot of things.
And so now, yeah, your momdidn't doesn't have the alcohol
to make her feel safe, butwhat's her big game?
(28:57):
Vacuum is lovability.
So I I think that going forlove and affection would make
some sense, but it sounds likeyou're experiencing not it not
as her putting love into you,but her extracting love from you
and putting it into herself,and that's not about you yeah,
it's so confusing it really isto feel safe.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah yeah, I think that vulnerable narcissists are
really tricky like this.
I think your ex is, like youknow, tricky because of like
this, my mom, where if theiraddiction is love, it's so
confusing because it's like, wow, they love me so much.
They and the worst is like thegaslighting.
The gaslighting, but I mean Iwill hear people to this day say
(29:42):
your mom loves you so much.
She's just so sad because sheloves you so much.
And I'm like how can I explainto anyone that her loving me is
somehow the most unloving thingI could feel, right like it did
it.
Just it feels aggressive whenshe loves me, because it's not
(30:02):
like you know, if I need space,if I need rest, if I need space,
if I need rest, if I needsomething else, she'll get angry
with me.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And it's like.
It's like no I to to feel lovedand to actually feel like you
are a loving parent, likerespect, what I need in that
moment, Like I was, literally Ijust had my mastectomy, my, I
had my boobs amputated, I hadtubes coming out of me, like
(30:32):
literally, like plastic tubescoming out of my chest.
I was so exhausted, I was so inpain and drugged up and I was
asking for can Jackson come playhere with you instead of going
to your house?
And she just yelled at me andit just like she's still to this
day.
Like, literally today I wastexting with her.
She still doesn't understandwhy I'm taking space so it's
(30:56):
just like oh gosh, she loves meso much.
She wanted to play with you know, play with my kid and be a
great grandmother.
How terrible, like that's what.
That's what she's tellingeveryone.
I'm like I I needed somethingfrom her and my most vulnerable
and I didn't.
I I not only didn't get it, butI got backlash for saying that I
(31:18):
needed something and and Ithink this is this is like a
suspicion of mine I think itbothered her that I was in a
position of so much need that itdefinitely would trump whatever
she needed at the time.
Right like her need to playwith jackson in her house was
not as important as, like me,recovering from cancer and
(31:40):
surgery.
Right like I mean, now I'msounding entitled right now, but
like you know what I mean likehaving your breasts amputated.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That's fucked up.
That's fucked up.
That's a time when a daughterneeds support from her mother
and other people.
But, like you, you had anexperience that was incredibly
fundamental.
You are literally vulnerable.
You are literally going throughsomething traumatic.
Your body is currently beingtraumatized and there, where was
(32:15):
, where was the comfort of amother?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
that's horrible what was so weird is like, right, I'm
getting like uncomfortableright now, like I'm really every
time we bring this I know I'vebeen talking about this in past
couple episodes because it'sreally.
It really got under my skin andI like that night like cried.
I was so depressed for likethat week and I'm feeling like
really uncomfortable now, almostlike I could feel my anxious
(32:42):
thoughts, but it's just it.
All I want to do is just likescream out to her, right, like
all of my I I learned this iscalled like a healing fantasy,
where you, if your parentdoesn't see you, you fantasize
about doing something that islike shakes them out of it or or
(33:05):
them getting treatment orwhatever, that they finally turn
around and go.
Oh, my god, I'm so sorry.
I, I didn't know you were, Ididn't know I hurt you this
badly.
I, I was hurting and I neededsomething, but I, I, I'm sorry
and I'll do better.
And I like I just fantasizeobsessively over like yelling at
(33:27):
her these things and like maybethis is what I'm doing right
now.
Right, but on the podcast, likescreaming out my pain more, so
to speak.
But oh, it's hard that it just,it doesn't like it, it doesn't
go away.
I mean, I I try my best to likeaccept her for who she is and
yet there's still like thatlittle child version.
(33:49):
That's just like hey, like Ineed stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
It's a massive ask to just accept your mother for
this kind of limitation.
I mean, what you just said I'msure is the most relatable thing
that anybody with narcissisticparents has ever heard.
Like, I mean, that was okay.
There were three sets ofquestions that I got when I
asked followers.
One was basically what you'retalking about, like how can I
(34:18):
get through to them?
And it's not, and you know it'ssad because the narcissistic
parent is going to hear that aslike, how can I criticize them
and make them understand they'rewrong?
But it's?
That's actually not that, that'snot the need, that's being.
That's not the wish fulfillment.
The wish fulfillment is how canI genuinely connect with you?
(34:39):
I can't do that if we'refundamentally not agreeing on
the premises of our relationship.
Like, if you can'tfundamentally see that I need
comfort and safety when I'mrecovering from cancer, you know
, especially right aftermastectomy then how can I ever
(35:01):
expect to relate to you?
If my needs are fundamentallythat unmet, then what kind of
relationship or closeness can weever hope to have If you can't
it's like accept what I'm saying?
I mean, there's really a bidfor connection there, but it's
just getting totally missed bythe parent, as you just want to.
(35:25):
You just want to put me down,you just want to assert power
over me.
They can never let themselves bedisempowered not the person in
control, maybe because they'vebeen victimized when they were
like that in the past.
I mean it.
It's understandable from somesense, but it's extremely sad
that there's just, it's just soimpossible to have a genuine
(35:51):
relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, I mean I, at least my experience is like when
you do what you were saying,where you're doing a bid for
connection, like, hey, when youcriticize me or you do this
thing, or you know, listen to myneeds, needs, I really want you
, I really want my mom.
Um, people in the communityhave been saying that their
(36:14):
parents have gone.
Oh, fine, I can't do anything.
Right, like I can't.
Fine, you don't look, I'm theworst parent.
I just I'm just saying thesethings to, to to make you, you,
the best that I possibly could,but, fine, I'm a terrible, but,
like the, the, the collapse intoshame with the criticism, right
(36:35):
, they don't even say, oh, thisthing, that I did hurt your
feelings and let me try, try mybest to meet your need.
It's just like fine, it's justlike throwing your hands up and
walking away from the whole,from the whole thing, which is
worse that's that I mean.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I think that's two, for two reasons.
One is if you are genuinelythinking that only the
projection of yourself is trulylovable, then what has been
exposed is your true self.
Then you're going to collapseinto shame because your true
self is unlovable and so okaythat you've just seen it.
There you go.
The other thing is just like.
It's a very strong techniquefor getting the love and
(37:13):
affection and reassurance back.
Yeah, because we've talkedabout this.
As soon as she says I'm just theworst mother, you're gonna say
no, that's not true, you're awonderful mother so yeah exactly
, exactly, super, superfrustrating, and I think this,
like this conversation, broughtup a second set of questions,
(37:36):
which was do our parents trulylove us?
And and that's a really sadquestion, and my heart kind of
broke when I read that- yeah,yeah can a narcissistic parent
actually love?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
and that's a complicated question to answer
yeah, and I, I mean, I'mthinking about it now.
I'm trying to put the frameworkof addiction in there, right?
Like my mom admitted tochoosing alcohol for me
sometimes like she would.
(38:11):
She would be actually getting ashipment of vodka to the house
and she didn't want me to see,so she would pick a fight to
throw me out.
So she would, she wouldactually choose, I mean, and
also like I really respect thatshe admitted that to me um, yeah
, I'm surprised she admittedthat to you.
I, yeah, it was part of part ofher sobriety work, but, um, so I
(38:34):
respect that.
But can an addict love someone?
I mean that that's a that's atough thing to figure out
because, like then you're likewhat is love and what is it the
love that the person needs?
And if it's like that person'sbrain is just in like a radar
mode of like I need to get thisthing, I need to get food, I
(38:56):
need to get the drug, I need toget the love, I need to get it,
whatever, then everything elsebecomes less important.
And I mean, I do thinknarcissistic parents love their
kids.
Their love just seems to bechanneled into I want the best
for my kid, and maintaining thatlike perfect self is the way to
(39:19):
do it.
It's a way to keep everyonesafe, it's a way to keep me safe
.
It's a way you know, like ifthey're just like zeroing in on
the one thing they know is worksfor them, so they do but it's
just not.
It's just it doesn't feel likelove.
I guess it doesn't feel likewhat you need.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, I think it's really important with this
question in particular, to keepin mind that it's a spectrum.
So when we talk about like, cannarcissists love?
Well, what do we mean exactlyby narcissist?
How narcissistic are we talkingabout?
I mean, and and it brings up somany construct challenges what
do we mean by love?
My response would be if you weredealing with somebody who
fundamentally cannot put yourneeds first ever, then that
(40:00):
doesn't mean that they don'tappreciate you, like you feel
attached to you, um, and believethat they love you, feel
attached to you and believe thatthey love you, but it may not
be a love that feelsparticularly meaningful to you.
And what do we do with that?
A lot of times when we talkabout love sometimes it's so
(40:24):
funny people will mean vastlydifferent things.
Um, when we say I'm in love,that usually means I am so
enamored with the projection ofwho you are that I've gotten to
know of your good traits, youknow, like, of the feelings that
, the feelings that happen in mewhen I experience you, and that
(40:47):
is what I call love.
And sometimes, when we say love, we mean somebody who is able
to unconditionally andsacrificially put you first, and
those are like vastly differentdefinitions.
I would think that people whoare narcissists are able to feel
enamored by the, byexperiencing you, you know.
(41:11):
Now, maybe some of them can't,but we're talking extreme end
and individuals at this pointbut I would.
I would think that, like,narcissistic parents can
sometimes put their kids needabove theirs.
Maybe I mean again, dependingon what it is like.
You'll see, for instance,you'll see a lot of narcissistic
(41:33):
parents working themselves todeath to provide, like, a
certain life for their kids andthat it that is a kind of love,
that is a kind of sacrifice.
I mean it's some people wouldsay it's a huge sacrifice.
So I don't know.
I mean I think when we arelooking at, like, when we have
narcissistic parents and thechoice is cut them out of your
(42:00):
life totally or accept thesituation, accept the
relationship and figure outwhere, where acceptance can look
like appreciation, it might bean understanding of they can't
meet these needs, they can meetthese other needs.
When they meet these otherneeds, it is an expression of
(42:20):
love.
When they can't meet theseother, like these first needs,
it's not necessarily that theydon't love me, but that they are
so threatened by meeting myneeds.
Their sense of safety is sothreatened that they can't
figure out how to do it.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Something like that yeah, yeah, it's leading into
acceptance.
By the way, when we talk aboutthat, narcissism is on a
spectrum there.
There is that scale that wefound, the perceived maternal
narcissism scale.
I'll put that in the show notesso if people are like, how
narcissistic was my parent, youcould play around with that and
and see how much your parent isactually narcissists.
(42:59):
But no, I think you're right.
I think it's.
I think it's a lot ofacceptance and leaning into what
our parents are capable of.
And every single parent isflawed, right.
They're like it's part ofactually natural development to
grow up thinking that yourparents are gods and then, when
you're in your adolescence,you're like, wait a minute,
(43:22):
they're just like stupid peoplethat are.
You know they don't know whatthey're doing and a lot of your
development is making up forthose flaws and accepting them.
Right, and we're we're a littlebit better.
With different kinds ofdisorders or illnesses, like if
your parent got you know, godforbid Alzheimer's or some other
(43:45):
kind of condition where they'relimited, you're definitely
going to feel frustrated, you'regoing to feel sad, you're going
to feel like they can't meetyour needs.
You're going to feel thatdistance and grief, but you
might not be as like expectingof them to fill that need.
You're going to accept that alittle bit more.
I mean, who knows?
(44:05):
But with the narcissistic parentthey might be smart, they might
be attuned, they might beactually be good at empathy.
That's the crazy part is, likethere's so much lack of empathy
and narcissism, but some of themare just really good socially
and so it's confusing.
Like my mom is like reallyreally perceptive socially and
(44:26):
yet I'm like then why can't yousee how much this is hurting me?
Like it, it blows my mind.
Yeah, yeah, so there, so I, I'mbetter when I accept that like
she has had a lot of emotionaldevelopment problems and she
can't meet the needs that I, Iwish that she could, um, but
(44:48):
then there are times when I fallback into expecting and hoping
that she would, and that's whenI get particularly disappointed.
So, just set your expectationslow and you'll not get
disappointed.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean it's upsetting.
It's upsetting to have to setyour expectations low with the
person who's supposed to giveyou the most love in the world
it might also be like a boomergeneration thing too.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I mean, estrangement is on the rise.
We talked about this before,where the, the generation above
us, were like get a job, uh, getyou know, have stricter gender
roles, like have kids, andthat's the way to happy life.
And now we're like I don't carethat you've, like I don't care
(45:35):
about climbing the ladder, Ijust wish that you would pay
attention to me, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
so it's just like difference in needs it's funny
when we say boomer generation,it's probably more accurate to
say that the boomer generationis much more representative of
every other generation that camebefore.
It's just that there's been arapid like, uh, rapidly evolving
in mental health and parentingscience basically parenting
(46:01):
psychology and now we havedifferent expectations of what
parents give us, um and and alot of social mobility.
That maybe didn't exist in thesame way before, where boomers
like raised us saying you can beanything you want to be, so go
be astronauts, whereas before itwas like you can at best be an
(46:22):
accountant or like work in myelectricity business or whatever
.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Simpler times and now it's like, literally you can oh
my god getting into the contentcreation world.
I mean you could literally geta career as a 20 something year
old being on social media.
I mean like you literally getpaid to be seen.
I mean the value of being seennow and seen for your authentic
(46:49):
self is all messed up.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
I desperately want TikTok to get banned, but
anyways, that's another story.
So one of the things that Ithink the research is pretty
incontrovertible about is thatwhen you have narcissistic
parents, you are likely to forman insecure attachment of some
sort when you are older.
So the third set of questionsthat we got was I really liked
(47:13):
this.
It was how can I prevent thenarcissistic behaviors that were
modeled for me and that Ilearned from showing up in my
new relationships?
So not just like how can Iprevent myself from dating
narcissists, but like how can Inot be a narcissist when that's
what was modeled?
Defensiveness was modeled forme, stonewalling, silent
(47:37):
treatment, you know, likegrandiosity, arrogance,
entitlement.
If that's modeled for you, it'sreally hard.
And again like if you'retreated like you bring your
parent happiness or pride whenyou perform well or accomplish,
(47:57):
then how can you learn to letdown your guard and be seen for
just the normal you that isn'talways perfecting or trying or
accomplishing.
So I think that's a rich placefor discussion yeah, how?
Speaker 2 (48:21):
how do you not pass down the narcissism,
generational trauma?
Uh?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I, I think, yeah, I think, I think that's a big part
.
And then I also think that whatwe're talking about with
conditional and unconditionallove is how can you prevent
yourself from expecting a spouseto fulfill the role that the
parent was supposed to fill?
That would also be an addendum.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I see that the people who try to
break that, I mean likenarcissists, like kids of
narcissists, tend to try to datenarcissists and then when they
try to date someone who's niceand emotionally attuned and
emotionally available, boringyeah, it's like you know, like
(49:04):
someone says like oh, it makesme, it gives me the ick, like
they, they want it too much andit's just like I mean, yeah,
there's just.
There actually is something thatfeels so good about being
infatuated with this person,feels so out of reach, and then
you win them and then you likeworked for you, earn that love,
(49:26):
whereas someone who just likegives it freely, you're like
this is worth nothing.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I mean just like well , yeah, if you were taught your
whole life that like you'reloved for performing well, and
then somebody just likes you forwho you are, that doesn't like,
that doesn't make any kind ofsense.
But when somebody finally seesyou after you have won their
affection and done cartwheelsfor them like you have for your
parent, then that makes senseand oh my god, I got it this
(49:53):
time.
I won, I like I.
I performed enough that I wonthe game yeah oh my god, wait, I
didn't win the game.
Now you're mad at me and nowyou're telling me I have to
perform better.
Okay, okay, well, I'm used tothis too.
Well, okay, and I'll performbetter and I'll try and try and
try.
And, oh my god, you're saying Idid something wrong and it's
all my fault, and this is also afamiliar dynamic.
Okay, I'll try and try and tryand try.
Um, so that would be more ofthe probably anxious attachment
(50:21):
dance man, we could get a whole.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
We should do a whole episode on this, like how to
actually change attachmentpatterns.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's a whole area we've done episodes on that we
have, we have.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
but I kind of dug into it a little bit more and
it's it's really interesting.
Actually.
I mean I like I liked what yousaid before about safety, about
that narcissism is a way tosafety which I didn't think
about before.
I was thinking about is morelike the dopamine hit.
But I think safety makes moresense when we think of
attachment, like what do we doto feel safe, like going to our
(50:54):
parent and having them attend toour needs?
Is a is a safety mechanism,right?
And then we have this blueprintfor what does what keeps us
safe?
Being beautiful, beingperforming, being perfect, right
, like like that's what Ilearned like mommy likes right,
being perfectly useful andloving or whatever.
(51:14):
And then so you have to rewirewhat safety means.
So it's a little bit closer to,I think, like PTSD and anxiety
treatments where someone's like,oh, danger, I have to you know,
(51:36):
like how do I?
How do I tell my brain to stopbeing afraid?
So I think it's rewiring thatit's instead of like safety, and
for me it's like for a while itfelt safe to chase a guy's
affection, like that felt likethe thing to do, the right way
to get love and I don't know,like I think that there's a lot
of like long-term work that getsyou there, but I know that both
(51:57):
of us broke that pattern andactually with men that are very
different and actually like likeus, for us, um, so it's
possible, it's just like.
I mean, this merits like a wholeother discussion, but it takes
practice and it takes like.
It takes like a disillusionmentof that chase, right, like as
(52:18):
you're saying like, ooh, myparents don't approve of me for
you know, when I did cartwheelsand tricks, but this new person
does, like, don't do that, don't, don't think that you could
fulfill that hole in the currentpeople.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
Right, it's about like, grieving that missing
block yeah, I mean there's a bigwhat we call like reenactment.
Um, people who come fromdamaged relational histories
often try to reenact thosehistories in the present.
So if I could not win theaffection of my father, then I'm
(52:54):
going to reenact that samesetup and see if I can win it in
different relationships.
And the trick is realizing thatthe reason you couldn't win it
wasn't because you weren't goodenough, it's because the game
was rigged.
There was no way of winning itin the first place.
And so if you continuereenacting it, you're going to
continue reenacting riggedsetups, rigged games and you're
(53:17):
going to keep losing over andover and over again.
New.
And work probably with atherapist on what is the
discomfort and the threat that Ifeel when somebody treats me
(53:40):
well, when somebody ispredictable.
Why does that?
Is it truly boredom that I'mfeeling, or is it actually a
different kind of discomfortthat looks like boredom, kind of
discomfort that looks likeboredom but is actually
something more akin to likedisbelief that they could
(54:00):
actually love me, or you know,it's just whatever's going on.
When we're thinking about then,when you become maybe more than
more avoidant type, or when youstart taking on traits of the
narcissist yourself, then I mean, first of all, for the people
who ask that question, likebravo, that's the first step and
(54:23):
probably the most massive stepin actually not doing that,
because if you're able to say Ithink I might be doing something
damaging and I don't want to dothat, then you have a much
higher likelihood of not doingit than somebody who refuses to
admit or see that they doanything wrong ever, but
(54:49):
probably examine it.
I mean, the number one kind ofhallmark trait of narcissism is
entitlement and so noticing, Ithink, entitlement and where
that comes up and what it means,you know like can you actually
feel safe and valuable in aworld where you're not special
(55:11):
by decree, where you're notspecial by decree, interesting?
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, part of that narcissistic parent blueprint is
like, at least for me, that Ihad to get over.
Was it led to the belief ofonly one person can have needs
at a time?
If one person has a need,another, the other person cannot
, and usually it's me who cannothave that Right.
(55:37):
So part of if narcissists tendto make narcissists, so there's
like narcissistic traits thatpass down, and so if you are
noticing narcissistic traits inyourself, know that it, you know
, comes from that feeling ofdeprived and the feeling of fear
that if I'm myself, that noone's going to love me.
(55:58):
But then actually when you'rewith people, try to be
empathetic, right Like actuallyattuned to their needs.
Put yours aside for a moment,but know that just because you
are attending to someone else'sneeds doesn't mean yours don't
don't matter anymore.
You could both have needs andactually being empathetic to
someone else lets that person beempathetic to you.
(56:21):
Right like empathy, becauseempathy, if I attune to you and
I care about what you need inthe right relationships, you
should get that back right.
That's actually like where youactually meet and connect yeah
so people could have the spacefor both feelings.
That makes sense, or am I justblabbering?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
no, it makes total sense.
I was thinking.
My favorite, one of my favoriteparts about being with jason is
that when I am a bitch to him,I feel safe enough to take some
time myself and and say, okay,why was I just a bitch to Jason?
You know what?
I think it's because Iinterpreted what he said in this
(56:58):
way and that's probably not thecorrect way, and I think I
wanted to grab a little bit ofpower over him and like make him
sorry that he said that thing,even though it wasn't very fair.
And then I feel safe enough togo trot over to Jason and say,
hey, the reason I was a bitch toyou just then was because I
interpreted what you said in aspecific way wasn't really a
(57:20):
fair interpretation.
And then what I wanted to dowas say something that would
hurt.
Like I'm able to basically layout what happened in my head
because I know that he's notgoing to use that and weaponize
it against me and that he willallow himself to take that, but
(57:41):
also then meet my need right.
So like I can meet his need ofmaybe apologizing that I was a
bitch, while also getting my ownneed met, that I need
reassurance, or whatever thefuck started the whole thing in
the first place.
I need reassurance, or whateverthe fuck started the whole
thing in the first place.
So when you can, yeah, seethings as not a zero-sum game,
as, like, I can attend to youand in attending to you actually
(58:04):
there would probably be morespace for than you to attend to
me then you're gonna wind upwith a better product.
And so I think that a lot ofpeople who are extremely
defended see admitting wrong orcatering to another person as
(58:26):
lowering themselves in power andlosing control.
That's why I brought up thatexample With my last
relationship.
I don't think that he would haveever been able to admit to me
what was really going on in hishead, because he would be afraid
that that would weaken himself.
It was such a battlefield everytime we were trying to get
(58:49):
needs met, because there wassuch a currying for power and
control.
Yeah, and when you can allowyourself to actually be head
bowed a little bit, you knowlike, oh, your needs are
important.
Right now, I did somethingwrong.
I can actually, you know, cometo you and ask you for
(59:09):
forgiveness, or like, tell youthat I'm a human being who's
fallible and makes mistakes anddoesn't get it right all the
time, that's actually much morepowerful.
It's a sign of healthyself-esteem, it's a it's a sign
of healthy relationship building.
So I guess I would maybe examine, like, if you feel like you
(59:30):
need to maintain power in adisagreement over forming
connection, what is the threatof being less powerful in that
interaction?
Sometimes there's a realfucking threat, you know,
because sometimes, if you, ifyou know that if you lose power,
the other person willmanipulate that, then I also
(59:51):
wouldn't want to lose any power,but that's not always the case.
And then opposite action.
I would just also think youknow, like, if you cannot be
happy for somebody else'ssuccess, just fake it in a
really big way.
Buy the gifts, do thethoughtful thing, even if you're
(01:00:12):
in conversation and this isawkward at first like, create a
ratio in your head of how manyquestions you need to ask them
versus how many you're beingasked, and just stick to that
ratio yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I like that opposite action to envy, which is to
promote that other other peoplelike lift other people up and
you were stuck.
You will start to rewire yourbrain from a dopamine head or
like safety of I gotta win,right, I gotta win and that's
the way I get love.
That's why no right collaborate, lift everyone else up.
(01:00:47):
We're a team and we're not.
It's not like a race, yeah so Ireally like connection over ego
, like that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
I think that's the theme of yeah, one of my
favorite dbt principles is amindfulness principle of
effectiveness do what is goingto get you towards your goal,
not what is going to make youfeel more powerful.
Like it.
I said to your friend, I saidto our friend once we were
(01:01:16):
arguing about like, should hehave paid the bill for the girl?
And I was like of course youshould have.
And he was like, no, for thesereasons.
And I was like, do you want tobe right or do you want to get
laid?
And that is that we've heardthis like do you want to be
right or do you x?
Like, yeah, that is a goodprinciple to use.
(01:01:37):
Is your behavior going to resultin you being quote-unquote
right or is it going to resultin you getting more connection
and love?
Um, and that doesn't alwaysmean surrender and uh, accept
all blame, like that's the otherend.
Sometimes that also won't giveyou more love, because you're
degrading your own self-respectand esteem.
(01:01:58):
So it's a difficult dance andthis is why I would suggest,
like, go to therapy if you'restruggling with this, because
you have all these differentpsychosocial needs to balance.
But if the true goal isconnection and intimacy, then
power and control cannot be anequal goal and if you don't want
(01:02:19):
to go to therapy, join.
Cool of mind, of course, but Ithink cool of mind and therapy
can work in conjunction.
Yeah, definitely, yeah, um, Iwould never be promoting
something that would result inpeople not seeking therapy.
Kippy, as you know, that wouldbe at odds with the way that we
(01:02:41):
see our perfect self, yeah.
So I think that's all for me.
Do you have anything to add?
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
No, so I think that's all for me.
Do you have anything to add?
No, I, uh, I could repeat thatif you want to tell us about
your narcissistic parent journeyuh, texas, directly, it's like
in the show notes.
You could just click on likesend a text um, join cool mind
for more tips and skills andhandholding through changing
(01:03:15):
your attachment patterns and,you know, healing from
narcissistic abuse.
And what was the last one?
Oh yeah, um, I'm gonna put theuh narcissism scale on our show
notes so if you're wondering hownarcissistic is your mom really
, you could check it out and youcould get a little quiz and see
how damaged you really are.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Oh well, if you would like to be our narcissistic
supply, please give us afive-star rating on Spotify.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation to
(01:03:59):
the accuracy of the informationfeatured in this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation All right, yeah,
that one, I believe only and donot constitute the practice of
medical or any otherprofessional judgment, advice,
diagnosis or treatment, andshould not be considered or used
(01:04:19):
as a substitute for theindependent professional
judgment, advice, diagnosis ortreatment of a duly licensed and
qualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
presented or mentioned in thispodcast, and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
Hey, Little Helpers.
Today, Kibbe and I arereturning to our favorite topic,
but we didn't realize that whatmost of you are looking for is
actually help with this topic.
But in didn't realize that whatmost of you are looking for is
actually help with this topic,but in relation to a different
person.
So in doing some research forCooler Mind, we asked you all
who in your life do you need themost help with, and with what
(00:37):
disorder, and the overwhelmingresponse that we got was
narcissistic parents.
So today we're going to talkabout what are the effects of
having narcissistic parents andwhat might this be like for you,
for your relationships.
How might that show up?
And again like how maybe it'sbest to deal with your parents
(00:58):
or set boundaries with yourparents and maybe also empathize
with them.
So, Kibbe, I'll turn it over toyou first, Talk about what
you're developing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, I couldn't believe how popular the topic is
of narcissistic parents.
I think a lot of people arestruggling with this.
Talking to our community, whatwe've learned is people are
talking about parents who arereally self-involved and
emotionally unavailable oremotionally dysregulated.
So that could look likeborderline personality disorder.
(01:30):
It could look like some parentwho has an addiction, is just
like not around, not available,or just just so focused on their
own needs that they're notthere for the person.
So I think when people saynarcissistic parents in general,
they're meaning parents whoweren't emotionally there for
them.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I mean I think you know just from, like, my
interaction with people I don'tentirely know.
I think that's a good way todefine it for the purposes of
this conversation, becausenarcissism is a concept that is
so either overused or there'sjust a massive number of
narcissists walking around ourplanet and I don't know which is
true, but um, but at the end ofthe day, it's a spectrum, and
(02:15):
so all of our parents displaysome sort of narcissistic traits
.
I mean, mine do.
I will as a parent, but Iessentially don't see my parents
as people who couldn't put myneeds first.
And I think that's the majordifference when we talk about
truly narcissistic parentsversus maybe like boomer parents
(02:38):
who have certain expectationsof their kids, and really that a
lot of the hurt that comes inis noticing that, yes, at times
they seem to delight theirparents, at times their parents
make big gestures and declaretheir love and are basically
(02:59):
around, but there's just thissense that when push comes to
shove, in a lot of ways parentswill not put their needs of the
child first.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, that emotional deprivation seems to be a big
theme and people like us whostruggle with growing up in an
environment where they feelemotionally unappreciated right
(03:31):
Like you feel feeling unseen,feeling like they don't belong,
feeling really lonely, eventhough their family life might
not have been traumatic orabusive.
It just they grow up feelinglike they're not worthwhile,
they have low self-esteem, theyconstantly are chasing
emotionally unavailable partners.
So, cool Mind.
We're really focusing onbuilding what someone like that
(03:55):
needs, like the skills toactually be seen and be loved
and to take care of your ownemotions and to fill that void
in healthy ways instead of maybethose toxic cycles that people
get in.
So it's just a really near anddear thing to our hearts because
thinking about what we want forcool of mind, it's really like
(04:16):
how can we help people the waywe were helped?
I personally was helped with alot of therapy, a lot of really
good strategies and supportaround me, and I've really grown
up with a narcissistic home, soto speak, and had a lot of
really unhealthy relationship,attachment patterns, so to speak
, flip-flopping from likeanxious to avoid it and all that
(04:38):
stuff, but really learning theskills I actually had to love
and be loved and I think samefor you right.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean I would not classify my home as
narcissistic, but a little bitgrandiose in certain ways.
But of course I've struggledwith men and dating and feeling
valuable to other people andincompetent and asserting my
worth at times, and I think thatthat's a very common story, so
(05:07):
it's.
I mean, I think most people canreally use these kinds of
strategies and support.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
So you know, before we reallydive into this topic, I'll say
that in Kula Mind we are we'rebuilding a community where we'll
do webinars and a lot of give,a lot of resources and
educational, like Q&A's, sopeople can learn what narcissism
is, what is self-esteem, whatare relationships, how do you
actually make changes in those,but also through one on one
(05:36):
coaching and really anything youneed.
So we're really buildingwhatever people need to really
learn these skills and make themstick, building whatever people
need to really learn theseskills and, like, make them
stick.
If you're curious about that,you could go to coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
Or actually now we put in theshow notes a place where you
could text me and Jacquelinedirectly.
(05:56):
So there's like a send a text.
Yeah, there's a send a textbutton at the very top, just
like tap on that, you could talkto us and just, even if you
want to, just like ask questionsor say hey, just shoot us a
text there.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay, well, so when we're like thinking about this
topic, I got a lot of questionsfrom followers that I want to
answer within this episode, andthe big thrust that I got from
the questions was how do I makethem understand that what
they're doing is wrong or thatthey're hurting my feelings or
(06:29):
something or other?
And I don't know if this iswhere we want to start with this
episode, but I do want toacknowledge that I think a big
part of growing up with anarcissistic parent is that your
own perspective doesn't getvalidated, taken seriously,
prioritized, and so there's thishuge just I mean, there's a
(06:52):
really big need to be heard byother people and a kind of
potentially dysregulated way ofgetting heard.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It almost seems like I mean the way it felt like for
me was.
It almost seems like I mean theway it felt like for me was I
didn't really get someone totake care of me in the way I
needed to when I was a kid andso I really really want that.
I really really wanted thatgrowing up, but then didn't
trust it when I got it.
So there's this real push andpull of like I need to be
(07:22):
something special or dosomething special for anyone to
actually give a shit about meand then if I don't do those
things at full throttle all thetime, my whole world will come
crashing down and no one willactually want me.
Then I wouldn't trust actualintimacy, Like I wouldn't trust
act.
When someone says they love me,I'm like, yeah, you know, I
would feel good.
(07:42):
But there's a back of my mindthat was like, yeah, but you
know, yeah, but it's, it's onlybecause I did something that you
liked.
It's only what I did for you.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, it's it's confusing because, in a way,
like friendship is about whatyou do for other people, like if
you are a good listener, if youare a good carer, or if you are
a good listener, if you are agood carer, or if you are a
generous, or if you arecharismatic whatever.
You know what I mean.
Like if you have something tooffer, then another person is
(08:18):
going to want to pick that upyou for what you produce, rather
than who you are.
That it's maybe.
Just it's hard to know.
Like, yes, I give things andthat's important in a
relationship, but is there, howdo I know that there's any love
for me as a human being in thisas well.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, this is something we talked about before
with unconditional love.
Is that even real?
Like, if you are a terribleperson, if you're a terrible kid
, you know, do you deserveunconditional love?
I mean, I don't have the answerfor that, but looking at the
literature, the five differentcharacteristics of a parent
who's narcissistic is one, lackof empathy, two, grandiosity.
(08:59):
Three, criticism.
Four, control, manipulation,and five, parentification.
So really all of those differentqualities are about like this
person wants to needs some sortof like, admiration and certain
kind of status or certain kindof special status in order to be
(09:22):
worthy of in its special status, in order to be worthy.
And so what they do to the kidis that they devalue them like,
really criticize them wheneverthey don't fulfill that standard
, really focus on the showinessand don't attune to the kid's
needs, right.
And so I still don't know theanswer about the, you know,
(09:43):
unconditional love.
But I I do know, being a parent, you really have to work hard
to put their needs above yours,like if you're tired, if you're
bummed out, if you need likeaffection or whatever, and that
kid is crying or in distress,like you need to show up for
them, like you need to just likeput your stuff aside and then
(10:04):
and then help the kid.
I mean not 100% of the time,but like that's the role of the
mom, and if they don't do that,then this like reversal happens,
where the kid becomes theparent.
Gratification, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I it's.
It's interesting.
I was thinking about thisdistinction earlier.
I was like okay, my parents,when I said my family's a little
bit grandiose.
What I mean is that there is asense that the whole family is
supposed to uphold the egos ofeach one of the members, so like
we are all supposed to bebeautiful and successful and
(10:42):
therefore reflect on like eachother that way, like it's overly
important.
Well, but it's.
But it's interesting, right,like yeah.
So yes, there's pressure to tobe a certain level of a couple
of characteristics, yeah, but Iwouldn't say the coldness is
there, the control, themanipulation, the
parentification, thevictimization, any of that,
(11:05):
which is why, to me, my familyjust feels a little bit boomer,
like, um, there was hugepressure to be thin all
throughout, like the 90s and the80s, and I think that that's
like part of my family and wewere taught like you should do
(11:29):
big things, you have big brains,use them, don't.
And a lot of this I'm like I'mprobably going to pass on to my
own kids.
I mean maybe differentlystylistically, but I am going to
have expectations and I knowyou'll have expectations of
Jackson, expectations, and Iknow you'll have expectations of
Jackson, um.
So so yeah, in a way, I'm like,okay, I've had to live up to a
(11:51):
standard that is sometimes alittle bit unforgiving, but when
I haven't reached it, have Igotten criticism?
Yes, but I wouldn't say I'vefelt loved less, um, and I
wouldn't say I've had to, likeapologize for not meeting that
standard yeah um or like and andthat's a weird thing to say
(12:14):
like I'm sorry, mom, that I'mnot thin enough like, of course
not.
but at the same time, I think alot of people who grew up with
narcissistic parents findthemselves in this role where
they are constantly apologizingfor existing, constantly
apologizing for not being thenarcissistic supply that they
are there to be.
If they produce any kind ofnarcissistic injury in their
(12:38):
parents, then it can be WorldWar III and they have to grovel
and submit and erase themselvesin a certain way, and when you
do that long enough, that'sreally dysregulating.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean you're a really interesting example
because your family does havehigh standards for social
markers of success, right Likeprofessionally and physically,
and yet they still have thesecret ingredient of like loving
you and loving their kids right.
(13:13):
So what did that?
When you said, if you didn'tmeet that standard, they might
say something, but you didn'tfeel less love Like what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
something.
But you didn't feel less love.
Like what does that look like?
Um, I can tell that my parentsor sibling I think it's really
just one sibling are botheredthat I should be a little bit
hotter, but and they might saysomething about it.
But ultimately it's not likeI'm frozen out.
(13:45):
It's not like I don't make mymother like laugh with delight.
It's not like my mother missesme any less or wants to see me
any less.
And when I said to her, I saidto her she sent me this message
after I'd gained weight.
That was like truly kind ofabsurd.
And I said to her somethinglike mom, you're acting as if I
have cancer and I'm refusingchemotherapy.
Like when she talked to meabout why I wasn't losing weight
(14:08):
and she's felt so guilty aboutthat ever since.
And she's brought it upno-transcript.
(14:36):
And you know, like I didn'tmeet her standard for sexual
chastity either.
But when I talk about it shedoesn't like get cold and
rejecting and disdainful.
She usually actually jokes withme about it and she has done a
lot of work.
I can tell to like come aroundand accept it, even though it's
(14:59):
something that she was raised tofind really important and
something that makes her verynervous, like if her daughters
have sex with men who don't lovethem, you know.
So, yeah, I I feel like I'vepushed my mom's standards in
many ways and ultimately she'svery proud of me, but I never
felt like I was truly riskingany kind of real rejection.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Did you feel the emotional responsiveness Like
when I was reading the researchum narcissistic parents are high
in control and standards andcriticism, but they don't
respond to their kids needs.
Do you feel like?
I mean, what does it look likewhen you're, when you have a
(15:45):
need and you turn to your family?
What did they?
How did they respond?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
They take it serious.
I mean, the person I wouldprobably go to is my mother, but
I've gone to various members ofmy family.
They take it seriously, theymake time for it.
She'll, she'll talk to meexhaustively about it if I need
her to, and sometimes shedoesn't get it quite right, but
she, you know, the time is there, the energy spent is there.
(16:11):
Um, she doesn't like turnaround and make it about her or
say, well, this is, you know,when I went through this, unless
it's productive, um, and youknow, I mean I think that
there's like this is apsychobabble term, but there's
like affect matching, you know,I mean I think that there's like
this is a psychobabbly term,but there's like affect matching
.
You know I mean she's notwriting me off or sort of
scoffing at me or telling me toget over it that's awesome
(16:34):
that's nice yeah, no, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, I mean I had, I had.
Like it's weird because when Ireally reflect on it now, I come
from a long line of narcissists.
I mean my dad was had a lot ofnarcissistic traits, my mom does
, and my grandmother, my mom'smom, definitely did, and my
mom's mom was the quintessentialnarcissist.
Um, I loved her like I really.
(16:59):
I really she was a really nicegrandma and usually narcissistic
parents are actually reallynice to the grandkids because
they don't have.
The problem with the kids isthat the kids.
You'll see when you have kids,jacqueline, it's like this.
What is this called?
It's like ego extension,narcissistic projection, that's
(17:19):
what it is.
Narcissistic projection whereyour flaws, like the kid, is
like yourself, so you are justas hard on them as you are on
yourself and like yeah, so theybecome like an extension of you.
So that sucks if you are hard onyourself, but with my grandma
she was really nice to me butshe, um, was like a tiny little
(17:41):
asian chinese lady and when Ireally think about it it's
pretty amazing.
She was like a tiny littleAsian Chinese lady and when I
really think about it it'spretty amazing.
She was like a seamstress,tailor's daughter in Cincinnati,
just like.
I think she was abused in manyways and worked her way up to
Hong Kong and the life that sheled and she was really like
(18:05):
social climbing in some ways,like she really liked um, she
really liked it when peoplepraised her.
She really you know, uh, youknow, like got in with people
that she thought were highstatus and she would be really
withholding of her affection.
She would with my mom and hersiblings.
(18:26):
She would praise one and thenshe would praise another one to
one of the kids.
Right, she would like tell mymom how great her sister was and
then, like talk shit aboutother kids.
So she would like curry favoramongst the different siblings
and they would have to reallywork hard to get her attention
and so she was like this largerthan life person that everyone
(18:47):
was like fighting for theirattention and so that just left
not much for the kids and I sawthat as a survival mechanism.
Right, a lot of narcissists Imean, for as much as we talk
about the toxic blah, blah, blahnarcissism is often like a
defense mechanism, right, it'slike I went through trauma or
had a bad background and therewas just one thing I could do to
(19:10):
actually keep me safe and loved.
Like I'm gonna do that hard andmake sure everyone else that I
love does that hard.
So my grandma definitely wasthe narcissistic parent and I
could see the effects on my mom.
Like I could see how she willalways go through life and this
is the thing that breaks myheart she'll always go through
life feeling unloved yeah, Imean you could say that most of
(19:36):
narcissism is a defensemechanism.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Um, I mean, there's healthy narcissism but, yeah,
yeah, when you, when you don'tfeel as though who you actually
are is something that can beloved by other people because
that's how you've been treatedthrough your formative years,
then you're going to figure outwhat you think can be loved and
project that as much as possible.
(19:59):
But being loved for aprojection of yourself isn't
very filling, um, and it'srickety and liable to be
fractured and when that happensit's extremely threatening.
What if you can see through theprojection to the unlovable,
(20:21):
damaged self inside?
And then what if I have to seethrough the projection towards
the unlivable, damaged selfinside?
And then what if I have to seethrough the projection towards
the unlovable, damaged selfinside and can no longer be the
projection, then what does thatmean?
I'm now completely vulnerableand threatened and, and that is
just such a tension that doesn'tleave a lot of room for
anything else.
(20:42):
You know, it's interesting whenI was thinking about would
narcissistic parents ever putthe needs of their child above
themselves?
I could see a narcissisticparent taking a bullet for their
child.
I could see narcissisticparents putting the needs of
their child above their own incertain ways, but I don't know
if they can put the emotionalneeds of the child above their
(21:03):
own in certain ways.
But I don't know if they canput the emotional needs of the
child above their own, becausethat's what's actually
threatened in them.
I could see putting theirchild's physical welfare above
their own, their safety abovetheir own, but the emotional
needs when, when you spend allof your time and energy
(21:26):
protecting yourself from everbeing seen and suddenly you are
being criticized for whatsomething you did, then that is
that's the threat.
Is there?
I'm being seen, not the project, because the perfect projection
is perfect.
The projection can't doanything wrong.
(21:46):
So if I'm being criticized, itmeans I've been seen.
Oh my god, absolutely not.
That is what I protect myselfagainst at all costs.
I don't go there.
You deal with that on your own.
You that those must be your badfeelings.
Projection that that wouldn'tdo that thing.
That's not possible.
It must be your bad feelings.
Projection that wouldn't dothat thing, that's not possible.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It must be your fault .
Go Interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
So you're saying that emotionalneeds are like vulnerability or
are like I mean it's also likewhat do you mean by emotional
needs?
I think that could be really.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I mean, if somebody like narcissism, it's
like we act as if it's this veryclear-cut thing, but I don't
think it.
If we think about my ex-fiancee, for example, yeah, it's not
like all of my emotional needswere neglected.
If I needed a hug, if I um hada shitty day, uh, if I needed
(22:45):
someone to celebrate with me, hecould usually do those things,
unless it came at a cost tohimself, and especially if the
cost to himself wasacknowledging a defect in
himself.
And that's the one thing thenarcissist cannot do Interesting
.
So if you're a narcissist and Isay to you, hey, it hurt my
(23:08):
feelings when you x, or like,hey, could you do the dishes?
There's a sink full of them.
Why you know?
Like, why can't you help memore?
Or I need you to show up for mewithout inserting yourself,
like, do you know what I mean?
Like, if there's any kind ofcriticism behind the need, it's,
(23:29):
it's unlikely to be met.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, because it's so fragile,right, their sense of self-worth
is so tied to a specific thing.
And it's interesting thinkingabout your ex because your ex
and I both I remember relatingto him with the narcissism being
around your professional everlike your intelligence or your
(23:55):
professional output, right,productivity in some ways, like
him being useful, him being likedoing things well or something
was something that was veryproud of.
So like, if that one thing wascriticized, I'm not just that,
you know, it's also control overyou was really important too,
right.
That's like a narcissistic thing.
They need control over anotherperson.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
If I were his narcissistic supply, if I was
the person who provided him withan idealized view of himself,
for one thing, I mean, I thoughthe was like a perfect human
being when I first met him.
Um, if I was this like prettygirl that made him look good and
like made him look like hecould get high status women, um
(24:42):
then it was very, verythreatening.
If I would go elsewhere withthat.
He was very afraid that I wouldcheat on him.
I was very afraid that I wouldbring that supply to somebody
else and therefore bring himshame and destroy his ego and
yada, yada, yada.
I'm not saying that's the onlyreason people fear that they'll
be cheated on, but when you'redoing everything in your power
(25:02):
to control another person, itsuggests that there's something
more to the story than just yeahthat would be a betrayal of our
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's been so long since we've talked about him and
now all those memories areflooding back, so interesting.
But yeah, it's like the, theother person, the narcissistic
supply, the kid, the girlfriend,whatever.
It's this feeling of beingobjectified, right, it's like
your emotional needs might bemet or your needs might be met,
but if it's, if it's in serviceof them, right, like if he meets
(25:37):
your emotional needs and it'slike responsive and loving and
whatever.
When you're, when you're sadthat that keeps you close, right
, it's like the stuff that wouldI mean, I it's.
It's weird because I'm starting,it's starting to feel like an
addiction, right, I've kind ofsaid this before but, it's this,
it's this sense from thisparent, like there is one thing
(26:01):
that they need, like food, likethey're acting like they're
starving and they need food.
And when, when you're starving,all you can think about is just
fulfilling that basic need.
And it almost seems like whenthere's, when narcissistic
parents are starved of theadmiration or validation or
attention that they need likefood, everything else dims.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And it's.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's funny because it's like what was it about my
mom that felt similar now toback then, when she was drinking
?
Like things that are changeddramatically since she's gotten
sober.
However, there's somethingabout it that felt that still
feels really like.
I still feel it a lot and itreally bothers me.
Um, and it's this feeling thatthere's something else that is
(26:48):
more important than what's goingon with me.
Right, like if I, if I, if myemotional and before it was
alcohol and now it's like love,which is confusing because it's
like she's warm and she's lovingand she is responsive and
empathetic, and yet I sense thatit's not about me, which is the
most annoying part, like whenshe says I love you, or when I I
(27:10):
even want her and need her andshe responds to me.
It's, it feels less like thisis a mom who's paying attention
to their kids needs and they'regoing to do it.
It's like she's finally gettingthe food, she's getting a snack
, and she's like all in, um, andI resent it, so it's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
When we think about addiction, people become
addicted to the thing.
Sometimes it's because there'sactual physical addiction that
goes on.
But in general when there's anaddiction, you're addicted to
what makes you feel safe.
So alcohol makes you feel safebecause you can.
It helps you avoid hardemotions and hard experiences,
(27:50):
it helps you avoid socialawkwardness, it helps you avoid
shame, it helps you avoid allsorts of things, right, because
you're just drinking, you'rejust fucking yourself up, you're
putting yourself out of yourmisery, and when that is taken
away from the addict, there's abig gaping vacuum there.
(28:15):
What now is going to make youfeel safe?
Well, hopefully a whole bunchof other stuff that comes in,
like great social support andmeaning and a fulfilling career,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But if you don't really fillthat back up, it's hard.
If you don't really fill thatback up, it's hard.
And if you're narcissistic,you're narcissistic probably
(28:37):
because you have a big gapingvacuum in your life from early
childhood and so, yeah, I meanthe addict is so fully focused
on getting the thing that makesthem feel safe they are all
threat detection that if that'staken away, it's chaos, there's
lying, there's violence, there'syou's, you know, tantrums,
there's a lot of things.
And so now, yeah, your momdidn't doesn't have the alcohol
to make her feel safe, butwhat's her big game?
(28:57):
Vacuum is lovability.
So I I think that going forlove and affection would make
some sense, but it sounds likeyou're experiencing not it not
as her putting love into you,but her extracting love from you
and putting it into herself,and that's not about you yeah,
it's so confusing it really isto feel safe.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah yeah, I think that vulnerable narcissists are
really tricky like this.
I think your ex is, like youknow, tricky because of like
this, my mom, where if theiraddiction is love, it's so
confusing because it's like, wow, they love me so much.
They and the worst is like thegaslighting.
The gaslighting, but I mean Iwill hear people to this day say
(29:42):
your mom loves you so much.
She's just so sad because sheloves you so much.
And I'm like how can I explainto anyone that her loving me is
somehow the most unloving thingI could feel, right like it did
it.
Just it feels aggressive whenshe loves me, because it's not
(30:02):
like you know, if I need space,if I need rest, if I need space,
if I need rest, if I needsomething else, she'll get angry
with me.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And it's like.
It's like no I to to feel lovedand to actually feel like you
are a loving parent, likerespect, what I need in that
moment, Like I was, literally Ijust had my mastectomy, my, I
had my boobs amputated, I hadtubes coming out of me, like
(30:32):
literally, like plastic tubescoming out of my chest.
I was so exhausted, I was so inpain and drugged up and I was
asking for can Jackson come playhere with you instead of going
to your house?
And she just yelled at me andit just like she's still to this
day.
Like, literally today I wastexting with her.
She still doesn't understandwhy I'm taking space so it's
(30:56):
just like oh gosh, she loves meso much.
She wanted to play with you know, play with my kid and be a
great grandmother.
How terrible, like that's what.
That's what she's tellingeveryone.
I'm like I I needed somethingfrom her and my most vulnerable
and I didn't.
I I not only didn't get it, butI got backlash for saying that I
(31:18):
needed something and and Ithink this is this is like a
suspicion of mine I think itbothered her that I was in a
position of so much need that itdefinitely would trump whatever
she needed at the time.
Right like her need to playwith jackson in her house was
not as important as, like me,recovering from cancer and
(31:40):
surgery.
Right like I mean, now I'msounding entitled right now, but
like you know what I mean likehaving your breasts amputated.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That's fucked up.
That's fucked up.
That's a time when a daughterneeds support from her mother
and other people.
But, like you, you had anexperience that was incredibly
fundamental.
You are literally vulnerable.
You are literally going throughsomething traumatic.
Your body is currently beingtraumatized and there, where was
(32:15):
, where was the comfort of amother?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
that's horrible what was so weird is like, right, I'm
getting like uncomfortableright now, like I'm really every
time we bring this I know I'vebeen talking about this in past
couple episodes because it'sreally.
It really got under my skin andI like that night like cried.
I was so depressed for likethat week and I'm feeling like
really uncomfortable now, almostlike I could feel my anxious
(32:42):
thoughts, but it's just it.
All I want to do is just likescream out to her, right, like
all of my I I learned this iscalled like a healing fantasy,
where you, if your parentdoesn't see you, you fantasize
about doing something that islike shakes them out of it or or
(33:05):
them getting treatment orwhatever, that they finally turn
around and go.
Oh, my god, I'm so sorry.
I, I didn't know you were, Ididn't know I hurt you this
badly.
I, I was hurting and I neededsomething, but I, I, I'm sorry
and I'll do better.
And I like I just fantasizeobsessively over like yelling at
(33:27):
her these things and like maybethis is what I'm doing right
now.
Right, but on the podcast, likescreaming out my pain more, so
to speak.
But oh, it's hard that it just,it doesn't like it, it doesn't
go away.
I mean, I I try my best to likeaccept her for who she is and
yet there's still like thatlittle child version.
(33:49):
That's just like hey, like Ineed stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
It's a massive ask to just accept your mother for
this kind of limitation.
I mean, what you just said I'msure is the most relatable thing
that anybody with narcissisticparents has ever heard.
Like, I mean, that was okay.
There were three sets ofquestions that I got when I
asked followers.
One was basically what you'retalking about, like how can I
(34:18):
get through to them?
And it's not, and you know it'ssad because the narcissistic
parent is going to hear that aslike, how can I criticize them
and make them understand they'rewrong?
But it's?
That's actually not that, that'snot the need, that's being.
That's not the wish fulfillment.
The wish fulfillment is how canI genuinely connect with you?
(34:39):
I can't do that if we'refundamentally not agreeing on
the premises of our relationship.
Like, if you can'tfundamentally see that I need
comfort and safety when I'mrecovering from cancer, you know
, especially right aftermastectomy then how can I ever
(35:01):
expect to relate to you?
If my needs are fundamentallythat unmet, then what kind of
relationship or closeness can weever hope to have If you can't
it's like accept what I'm saying?
I mean, there's really a bidfor connection there, but it's
just getting totally missed bythe parent, as you just want to.
(35:25):
You just want to put me down,you just want to assert power
over me.
They can never let themselves bedisempowered not the person in
control, maybe because they'vebeen victimized when they were
like that in the past.
I mean it.
It's understandable from somesense, but it's extremely sad
that there's just, it's just soimpossible to have a genuine
(35:51):
relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, I mean I, at least my experience is like when
you do what you were saying,where you're doing a bid for
connection, like, hey, when youcriticize me or you do this
thing, or you know, listen to myneeds, needs, I really want you
, I really want my mom.
Um, people in the communityhave been saying that their
(36:14):
parents have gone.
Oh, fine, I can't do anything.
Right, like I can't.
Fine, you don't look, I'm theworst parent.
I just I'm just saying thesethings to, to to make you, you,
the best that I possibly could,but, fine, I'm a terrible, but,
like the, the, the collapse intoshame with the criticism, right
(36:35):
, they don't even say, oh, thisthing, that I did hurt your
feelings and let me try, try mybest to meet your need.
It's just like fine, it's justlike throwing your hands up and
walking away from the whole,from the whole thing, which is
worse that's that I mean.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I think that's two, for two reasons.
One is if you are genuinelythinking that only the
projection of yourself is trulylovable, then what has been
exposed is your true self.
Then you're going to collapseinto shame because your true
self is unlovable and so okaythat you've just seen it.
There you go.
The other thing is just like.
It's a very strong techniquefor getting the love and
(37:13):
affection and reassurance back.
Yeah, because we've talkedabout this.
As soon as she says I'm just theworst mother, you're gonna say
no, that's not true, you're awonderful mother so yeah exactly
, exactly, super, superfrustrating, and I think this,
like this conversation, broughtup a second set of questions,
(37:36):
which was do our parents trulylove us?
And and that's a really sadquestion, and my heart kind of
broke when I read that- yeah,yeah can a narcissistic parent
actually love?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
and that's a complicated question to answer
yeah, and I, I mean, I'mthinking about it now.
I'm trying to put the frameworkof addiction in there, right?
Like my mom admitted tochoosing alcohol for me
sometimes like she would.
(38:11):
She would be actually getting ashipment of vodka to the house
and she didn't want me to see,so she would pick a fight to
throw me out.
So she would, she wouldactually choose, I mean, and
also like I really respect thatshe admitted that to me um, yeah
, I'm surprised she admittedthat to you.
I, yeah, it was part of part ofher sobriety work, but, um, so I
(38:34):
respect that.
But can an addict love someone?
I mean that that's a that's atough thing to figure out
because, like then you're likewhat is love and what is it the
love that the person needs?
And if it's like that person'sbrain is just in like a radar
mode of like I need to get thisthing, I need to get food, I
(38:56):
need to get the drug, I need toget the love, I need to get it,
whatever, then everything elsebecomes less important.
And I mean, I do thinknarcissistic parents love their
kids.
Their love just seems to bechanneled into I want the best
for my kid, and maintaining thatlike perfect self is the way to
(39:19):
do it.
It's a way to keep everyonesafe, it's a way to keep me safe
.
It's a way you know, like ifthey're just like zeroing in on
the one thing they know is worksfor them, so they do but it's
just not.
It's just it doesn't feel likelove.
I guess it doesn't feel likewhat you need.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, I think it's really important with this
question in particular, to keepin mind that it's a spectrum.
So when we talk about like, cannarcissists love?
Well, what do we mean exactlyby narcissist?
How narcissistic are we talkingabout?
I mean, and and it brings up somany construct challenges what
do we mean by love?
My response would be if you weredealing with somebody who
fundamentally cannot put yourneeds first ever, then that
(40:00):
doesn't mean that they don'tappreciate you, like you feel
attached to you, um, and believethat they love you, feel
attached to you and believe thatthey love you, but it may not
be a love that feelsparticularly meaningful to you.
And what do we do with that?
A lot of times when we talkabout love sometimes it's so
(40:24):
funny people will mean vastlydifferent things.
Um, when we say I'm in love,that usually means I am so
enamored with the projection ofwho you are that I've gotten to
know of your good traits, youknow, like, of the feelings that
, the feelings that happen in mewhen I experience you, and that
(40:47):
is what I call love.
And sometimes, when we say love, we mean somebody who is able
to unconditionally andsacrificially put you first, and
those are like vastly differentdefinitions.
I would think that people whoare narcissists are able to feel
enamored by the, byexperiencing you, you know.
(41:11):
Now, maybe some of them can't,but we're talking extreme end
and individuals at this pointbut I would.
I would think that, like,narcissistic parents can
sometimes put their kids needabove theirs.
Maybe I mean again, dependingon what it is like.
You'll see, for instance,you'll see a lot of narcissistic
(41:33):
parents working themselves todeath to provide, like, a
certain life for their kids andthat it that is a kind of love,
that is a kind of sacrifice.
I mean it's some people wouldsay it's a huge sacrifice.
So I don't know.
I mean I think when we arelooking at, like, when we have
narcissistic parents and thechoice is cut them out of your
(42:00):
life totally or accept thesituation, accept the
relationship and figure outwhere, where acceptance can look
like appreciation, it might bean understanding of they can't
meet these needs, they can meetthese other needs.
When they meet these otherneeds, it is an expression of
(42:20):
love.
When they can't meet theseother, like these first needs,
it's not necessarily that theydon't love me, but that they are
so threatened by meeting myneeds.
Their sense of safety is sothreatened that they can't
figure out how to do it.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Something like that yeah, yeah, it's leading into
acceptance.
By the way, when we talk aboutthat, narcissism is on a
spectrum there.
There is that scale that wefound, the perceived maternal
narcissism scale.
I'll put that in the show notesso if people are like, how
narcissistic was my parent, youcould play around with that and
and see how much your parent isactually narcissists.
(42:59):
But no, I think you're right.
I think it's.
I think it's a lot ofacceptance and leaning into what
our parents are capable of.
And every single parent isflawed, right.
They're like it's part ofactually natural development to
grow up thinking that yourparents are gods and then, when
you're in your adolescence,you're like, wait a minute,
(43:22):
they're just like stupid peoplethat are.
You know they don't know whatthey're doing and a lot of your
development is making up forthose flaws and accepting them.
Right, and we're we're a littlebit better.
With different kinds ofdisorders or illnesses, like if
your parent got you know, godforbid Alzheimer's or some other
(43:45):
kind of condition where they'relimited, you're definitely
going to feel frustrated, you'regoing to feel sad, you're going
to feel like they can't meetyour needs.
You're going to feel thatdistance and grief, but you
might not be as like expectingof them to fill that need.
You're going to accept that alittle bit more.
I mean, who knows?
(44:05):
But with the narcissistic parentthey might be smart, they might
be attuned, they might beactually be good at empathy.
That's the crazy part is, likethere's so much lack of empathy
and narcissism, but some of themare just really good socially
and so it's confusing.
Like my mom is like reallyreally perceptive socially and
(44:26):
yet I'm like then why can't yousee how much this is hurting me?
Like it, it blows my mind.
Yeah, yeah, so there, so I, I'mbetter when I accept that like
she has had a lot of emotionaldevelopment problems and she
can't meet the needs that I, Iwish that she could, um, but
(44:48):
then there are times when I fallback into expecting and hoping
that she would, and that's whenI get particularly disappointed.
So, just set your expectationslow and you'll not get
disappointed.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean it's upsetting.
It's upsetting to have to setyour expectations low with the
person who's supposed to giveyou the most love in the world
it might also be like a boomergeneration thing too.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I mean, estrangement is on the rise.
We talked about this before,where the, the generation above
us, were like get a job, uh, getyou know, have stricter gender
roles, like have kids, andthat's the way to happy life.
And now we're like I don't carethat you've, like I don't care
(45:35):
about climbing the ladder, Ijust wish that you would pay
attention to me, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
so it's just like difference in needs it's funny
when we say boomer generation,it's probably more accurate to
say that the boomer generationis much more representative of
every other generation that camebefore.
It's just that there's been arapid like, uh, rapidly evolving
in mental health and parentingscience basically parenting
(46:01):
psychology and now we havedifferent expectations of what
parents give us, um and and alot of social mobility.
That maybe didn't exist in thesame way before, where boomers
like raised us saying you can beanything you want to be, so go
be astronauts, whereas before itwas like you can at best be an
(46:22):
accountant or like work in myelectricity business or whatever
.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Simpler times and now it's like, literally you can oh
my god getting into the contentcreation world.
I mean you could literally geta career as a 20 something year
old being on social media.
I mean like you literally getpaid to be seen.
I mean the value of being seennow and seen for your authentic
(46:49):
self is all messed up.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
I desperately want TikTok to get banned, but
anyways, that's another story.
So one of the things that Ithink the research is pretty
incontrovertible about is thatwhen you have narcissistic
parents, you are likely to forman insecure attachment of some
sort when you are older.
So the third set of questionsthat we got was I really liked
(47:13):
this.
It was how can I prevent thenarcissistic behaviors that were
modeled for me and that Ilearned from showing up in my
new relationships?
So not just like how can Iprevent myself from dating
narcissists, but like how can Inot be a narcissist when that's
what was modeled?
Defensiveness was modeled forme, stonewalling, silent
(47:37):
treatment, you know, likegrandiosity, arrogance,
entitlement.
If that's modeled for you, it'sreally hard.
And again like if you'retreated like you bring your
parent happiness or pride whenyou perform well or accomplish,
(47:57):
then how can you learn to letdown your guard and be seen for
just the normal you that isn'talways perfecting or trying or
accomplishing.
So I think that's a rich placefor discussion yeah, how?
Speaker 2 (48:21):
how do you not pass down the narcissism,
generational trauma?
Uh?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I, I think, yeah, I think, I think that's a big part
.
And then I also think that whatwe're talking about with
conditional and unconditionallove is how can you prevent
yourself from expecting a spouseto fulfill the role that the
parent was supposed to fill?
That would also be an addendum.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I see that the people who try to
break that, I mean likenarcissists, like kids of
narcissists, tend to try to datenarcissists and then when they
try to date someone who's niceand emotionally attuned and
emotionally available, boringyeah, it's like you know, like
(49:04):
someone says like oh, it makesme, it gives me the ick, like
they, they want it too much andit's just like I mean, yeah,
there's just.
There actually is something thatfeels so good about being
infatuated with this person,feels so out of reach, and then
you win them and then you likeworked for you, earn that love,
(49:26):
whereas someone who just likegives it freely, you're like
this is worth nothing.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I mean just like well , yeah, if you were taught your
whole life that like you'reloved for performing well, and
then somebody just likes you forwho you are, that doesn't like,
that doesn't make any kind ofsense.
But when somebody finally seesyou after you have won their
affection and done cartwheelsfor them like you have for your
parent, then that makes senseand oh my god, I got it this
(49:53):
time.
I won, I like I.
I performed enough that I wonthe game yeah oh my god, wait, I
didn't win the game.
Now you're mad at me and nowyou're telling me I have to
perform better.
Okay, okay, well, I'm used tothis too.
Well, okay, and I'll performbetter and I'll try and try and
try.
And, oh my god, you're saying Idid something wrong and it's
all my fault, and this is also afamiliar dynamic.
Okay, I'll try and try and tryand try.
Um, so that would be more ofthe probably anxious attachment
(50:21):
dance man, we could get a whole.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
We should do a whole episode on this, like how to
actually change attachmentpatterns.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's a whole area we've done episodes on that we
have, we have.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
but I kind of dug into it a little bit more and
it's it's really interesting.
Actually.
I mean I like I liked what yousaid before about safety, about
that narcissism is a way tosafety which I didn't think
about before.
I was thinking about is morelike the dopamine hit.
But I think safety makes moresense when we think of
attachment, like what do we doto feel safe, like going to our
(50:54):
parent and having them attend toour needs?
Is a is a safety mechanism,right?
And then we have this blueprintfor what does what keeps us
safe?
Being beautiful, beingperforming, being perfect, right
, like like that's what Ilearned like mommy likes right,
being perfectly useful andloving or whatever.
(51:14):
And then so you have to rewirewhat safety means.
So it's a little bit closer to,I think, like PTSD and anxiety
treatments where someone's like,oh, danger, I have to you know,
(51:36):
like how do I?
How do I tell my brain to stopbeing afraid?
So I think it's rewiring thatit's instead of like safety, and
for me it's like for a while itfelt safe to chase a guy's
affection, like that felt likethe thing to do, the right way
to get love and I don't know,like I think that there's a lot
of like long-term work that getsyou there, but I know that both
(51:57):
of us broke that pattern andactually with men that are very
different and actually like likeus, for us, um, so it's
possible, it's just like.
I mean, this merits like a wholeother discussion, but it takes
practice and it takes like.
It takes like a disillusionmentof that chase, right, like as
(52:18):
you're saying like, ooh, myparents don't approve of me for
you know, when I did cartwheelsand tricks, but this new person
does, like, don't do that, don't, don't think that you could
fulfill that hole in the currentpeople.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
Right, it's about like, grieving that missing
block yeah, I mean there's a bigwhat we call like reenactment.
Um, people who come fromdamaged relational histories
often try to reenact thosehistories in the present.
So if I could not win theaffection of my father, then I'm
(52:54):
going to reenact that samesetup and see if I can win it in
different relationships.
And the trick is realizing thatthe reason you couldn't win it
wasn't because you weren't goodenough, it's because the game
was rigged.
There was no way of winning itin the first place.
And so if you continuereenacting it, you're going to
continue reenacting riggedsetups, rigged games and you're
(53:17):
going to keep losing over andover and over again.
New.
And work probably with atherapist on what is the
discomfort and the threat that Ifeel when somebody treats me
(53:40):
well, when somebody ispredictable.
Why does that?
Is it truly boredom that I'mfeeling, or is it actually a
different kind of discomfortthat looks like boredom, kind of
discomfort that looks likeboredom but is actually
something more akin to likedisbelief that they could
(54:00):
actually love me, or you know,it's just whatever's going on.
When we're thinking about then,when you become maybe more than
more avoidant type, or when youstart taking on traits of the
narcissist yourself, then I mean, first of all, for the people
who ask that question, likebravo, that's the first step and
(54:23):
probably the most massive stepin actually not doing that,
because if you're able to say Ithink I might be doing something
damaging and I don't want to dothat, then you have a much
higher likelihood of not doingit than somebody who refuses to
admit or see that they doanything wrong ever, but
(54:49):
probably examine it.
I mean, the number one kind ofhallmark trait of narcissism is
entitlement and so noticing, Ithink, entitlement and where
that comes up and what it means,you know like can you actually
feel safe and valuable in aworld where you're not special
(55:11):
by decree, where you're notspecial by decree, interesting?
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, part of that narcissistic parent blueprint is
like, at least for me, that Ihad to get over.
Was it led to the belief ofonly one person can have needs
at a time?
If one person has a need,another, the other person cannot
, and usually it's me who cannothave that Right.
(55:37):
So part of if narcissists tendto make narcissists, so there's
like narcissistic traits thatpass down, and so if you are
noticing narcissistic traits inyourself, know that it, you know
, comes from that feeling ofdeprived and the feeling of fear
that if I'm myself, that noone's going to love me.
(55:58):
But then actually when you'rewith people, try to be
empathetic, right Like actuallyattuned to their needs.
Put yours aside for a moment,but know that just because you
are attending to someone else'sneeds doesn't mean yours don't
don't matter anymore.
You could both have needs andactually being empathetic to
someone else lets that person beempathetic to you.
(56:21):
Right like empathy, becauseempathy, if I attune to you and
I care about what you need inthe right relationships, you
should get that back right.
That's actually like where youactually meet and connect yeah
so people could have the spacefor both feelings.
That makes sense, or am I justblabbering?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
no, it makes total sense.
I was thinking.
My favorite, one of my favoriteparts about being with jason is
that when I am a bitch to him,I feel safe enough to take some
time myself and and say, okay,why was I just a bitch to Jason?
You know what?
I think it's because Iinterpreted what he said in this
(56:58):
way and that's probably not thecorrect way, and I think I
wanted to grab a little bit ofpower over him and like make him
sorry that he said that thing,even though it wasn't very fair.
And then I feel safe enough togo trot over to Jason and say,
hey, the reason I was a bitch toyou just then was because I
interpreted what you said in aspecific way wasn't really a
(57:20):
fair interpretation.
And then what I wanted to dowas say something that would
hurt.
Like I'm able to basically layout what happened in my head
because I know that he's notgoing to use that and weaponize
it against me and that he willallow himself to take that, but
(57:41):
also then meet my need right.
So like I can meet his need ofmaybe apologizing that I was a
bitch, while also getting my ownneed met, that I need
reassurance, or whatever thefuck started the whole thing in
the first place.
I need reassurance, or whateverthe fuck started the whole
thing in the first place.
So when you can, yeah, seethings as not a zero-sum game,
as, like, I can attend to youand in attending to you actually
(58:04):
there would probably be morespace for than you to attend to
me then you're gonna wind upwith a better product.
And so I think that a lot ofpeople who are extremely
defended see admitting wrong orcatering to another person as
(58:26):
lowering themselves in power andlosing control.
That's why I brought up thatexample With my last
relationship.
I don't think that he would haveever been able to admit to me
what was really going on in hishead, because he would be afraid
that that would weaken himself.
It was such a battlefield everytime we were trying to get
(58:49):
needs met, because there wassuch a currying for power and
control.
Yeah, and when you can allowyourself to actually be head
bowed a little bit, you knowlike, oh, your needs are
important.
Right now, I did somethingwrong.
I can actually, you know, cometo you and ask you for
(59:09):
forgiveness, or like, tell youthat I'm a human being who's
fallible and makes mistakes anddoesn't get it right all the
time, that's actually much morepowerful.
It's a sign of healthyself-esteem, it's a it's a sign
of healthy relationship building.
So I guess I would maybe examine, like, if you feel like you
(59:30):
need to maintain power in adisagreement over forming
connection, what is the threatof being less powerful in that
interaction?
Sometimes there's a realfucking threat, you know,
because sometimes, if you, ifyou know that if you lose power,
the other person willmanipulate that, then I also
(59:51):
wouldn't want to lose any power,but that's not always the case.
And then opposite action.
I would just also think youknow, like, if you cannot be
happy for somebody else'ssuccess, just fake it in a
really big way.
Buy the gifts, do thethoughtful thing, even if you're
(01:00:12):
in conversation and this isawkward at first like, create a
ratio in your head of how manyquestions you need to ask them
versus how many you're beingasked, and just stick to that
ratio yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I like that opposite action to envy, which is to
promote that other other peoplelike lift other people up and
you were stuck.
You will start to rewire yourbrain from a dopamine head or
like safety of I gotta win,right, I gotta win and that's
the way I get love.
That's why no right collaborate, lift everyone else up.
(01:00:47):
We're a team and we're not.
It's not like a race, yeah so Ireally like connection over ego
, like that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
I think that's the theme of yeah, one of my
favorite dbt principles is amindfulness principle of
effectiveness do what is goingto get you towards your goal,
not what is going to make youfeel more powerful.
Like it.
I said to your friend, I saidto our friend once we were
(01:01:16):
arguing about like, should hehave paid the bill for the girl?
And I was like of course youshould have.
And he was like, no, for thesereasons.
And I was like, do you want tobe right or do you want to get
laid?
And that is that we've heardthis like do you want to be
right or do you x?
Like, yeah, that is a goodprinciple to use.
(01:01:37):
Is your behavior going to resultin you being quote-unquote
right or is it going to resultin you getting more connection
and love?
Um, and that doesn't alwaysmean surrender and uh, accept
all blame, like that's the otherend.
Sometimes that also won't giveyou more love, because you're
degrading your own self-respectand esteem.
(01:01:58):
So it's a difficult dance andthis is why I would suggest,
like, go to therapy if you'restruggling with this, because
you have all these differentpsychosocial needs to balance.
But if the true goal isconnection and intimacy, then
power and control cannot be anequal goal and if you don't want
(01:02:19):
to go to therapy, join.
Cool of mind, of course, but Ithink cool of mind and therapy
can work in conjunction.
Yeah, definitely, yeah, um, Iwould never be promoting
something that would result inpeople not seeking therapy.
Kippy, as you know, that wouldbe at odds with the way that we
(01:02:41):
see our perfect self, yeah.
So I think that's all for me.
Do you have anything to add?
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
No, so I think that's all for me.
Do you have anything to add?
No, I, uh, I could repeat thatif you want to tell us about
your narcissistic parent journeyuh, texas, directly, it's like
in the show notes.
You could just click on likesend a text um, join cool mind
for more tips and skills andhandholding through changing
(01:03:15):
your attachment patterns and,you know, healing from
narcissistic abuse.
And what was the last one?
Oh yeah, um, I'm gonna put theuh narcissism scale on our show
notes so if you're wondering hownarcissistic is your mom really
, you could check it out and youcould get a little quiz and see
how damaged you really are.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Oh well, if you would like to be our narcissistic
supply, please give us afive-star rating on Spotify.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation to
(01:03:59):
the accuracy of the informationfeatured in this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation All right, yeah,
that one, I believe only and donot constitute the practice of
medical or any otherprofessional judgment, advice,
diagnosis or treatment, andshould not be considered or used
(01:04:19):
as a substitute for theindependent professional
judgment, advice, diagnosis ortreatment of a duly licensed and
qualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
presented or mentioned in thispodcast, and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
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