December 3, 2025 • 50 mins
Ever feel a conversation snap from “let’s talk” to “we’re yelling” in seconds? When you find yourself butting heads with someone over a "sensitive" topic, it can seem impossible to get on the same page. In this episode, I unpack a research-backed way to dissolve stalemates and actually influence change without steamrolling the person you love. The trick isn’t the perfect comeback: it’s validation, or "tactical empathy."
I talk about the clinical science behind validation that reveals why it's so powerful biologically. Then I talk through practical steps for using validation to go from talking AT each other to talking TO each other. These strategies lowers defensiveness, overwhelm, and hostility. Then, I walk through everyday examples (from talking about drinking and mental health to bedtime battles with a stubborn toddler)and show how to pivot from adversaries to teammates facing the same problem.
I also cover what to do when someone shuts down entirely, how to validate the wall itself, and why this approach is especially powerful with sadness and shame. If you’ve been stuck in circular fights, these tools can open a path to collaboration, progress, and a little peace at home.
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends, a podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
Hey little helpers, it's Dr.
Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people youlove.
Coolamine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
(00:22):
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs, or setting boundaries.
Even if you're just curious andwant to chat about it, book a
free call with me by going tothe link in the show notes or
going to kulamind.com,K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click
get started.
Thank you and enjoy the show.
Welcome back, little helpers.
Today I'm going to talk abouthow you can get through to
(00:44):
someone when things get heated.
So how to break out of back andforth conflicts that don't
really go anywhere.
Um, how to calm down andactually get on the same page.
So it's a stressful topic, butI'm actually really happy to be
out here in upstate New York ina lodge with this amazing
background of mountains.
Maybe you can see in thebackground.
(01:04):
So anyone watching on YouTubewill get this lovely view.
So you're checking this out onYouTube, it's really beautiful.
Uh so kulamind, we've beentalking a lot about what to do
when you're always butting headswith someone you're close to.
So if you have someone in yourlife who is struggling with
(01:25):
emotions or their mental health,fights are really common,
right?
Like, even though you're tryingto help, there might be some
just you might be deadlocked oncertain topics.
Like they might think that yourtone of voice or the way that
you're telling them to go totherapy makes them feel really
(01:46):
judged.
And they scream and they lashout and they say no, right?
And then you're, you findyourself like in a heated debate
every single time.
And I've been talking to peoplea lot about what to do when you
just feel like whenever there'slike a certain topic comes up
or there's a trigger that comesup, it's just deadlock where you
(02:09):
can't see eye to eye.
You want to get on the samepage so you can move forward,
but both sides are just like youand that other person are just
stuck in the way you're seeingit and cannot move forward,
cannot get on the same page,cannot collaborate on what to do
next.
I'm hearing this a lot when itcomes to talking to loved ones
(02:32):
about getting help or theirmental health symptoms.
Like hearing a lot when itcomes to telling your child or
your partner, hey, I think yourdrinking is kind of out of
control.
You know, I, you know, I thinkthat you're drinking a little
bit too much, or I think this isaffecting your mood.
(02:54):
You know, I think you shouldcut back or get help.
And the other person goes, no,it's not that problem, and leave
me alone, and everything likethat.
And no matter what, that topiccomes up of drinking or their
mental health, it just, it justcollapses.
It just doesn't go anywhere.
And so it's tough because oftenthose are really important
(03:16):
topics, but then people justlearn to just avoid it.
They're like, there's no waythat I can make any movement
here, and it just makes thingsworse.
So I just won't talk about it.
And that's where resentmentbuilds, right?
Where you just have all theseelephants in the room where you
feel like you can't even touchit because it's just too hot.
You have to touch it with apoker.
I've also heard people talk alot about this in response to my
(03:40):
last episode that I talkedabout projection.
So often someone can readsomething into and interpret
your actions, yourcommunication, your behavior in
a certain way.
And they might be upset aboutit, right?
And then when they get upsetabout it, we might respond like,
(04:03):
no, I didn't mean that, orhere's why I did that.
Here's why it isn't bad.
But then you just you don't seeeye to eye, you can't get past
it.
It just evolves in a hugefight.
Common thing that I have withmy mom about that is whenever I
say no, you know, to somethingthat she's asking, right?
(04:24):
Like um being able to visit orsee my child, and I say no, she
interprets that as punishment orthat I'm doing something
against her, right?
She kind of reads this kind ofhostility in that.
And every time when she says,like, why are you punishing me?
What why are you doing this tome?
(04:44):
There's it feels like there'snothing I can say to make her
feel better or to like see myside, right?
Which is just like, no, it'sjust inconvenient.
It's not about you, it's notabout a relationship.
I just say no for anotherreason.
Right.
She's reading this likehostility from me, this like,
you know, me pushing her away orpunishing her when I don't have
(05:08):
that intention.
And the back and forth is like,wait a minute.
She is upset because the wayshe's interpreting my no, like
why I say no.
So I will make her feel betterby clarifying that that's not
what I meant, right?
Like that'll make her feelbetter to tell her that she's
wrong.
And then always that just getsa deadlock because the more I
(05:31):
try to clarify and argue anddefend my side, the worse the
fight gets.
And I'm just like, what?
Like, what do you do?
What do you do?
And this is just, it's such ahot, a hot topic when you're
dealing with someone with mentalillness, because sometimes what
they're struggling with is morethan just you or that moment or
(05:53):
just that topic.
It's almost like you you'retouching the tip of the iceberg,
and then you're there's a wholelike mountain underneath it,
right?
There's all this pain, all thisstruggle that it might be
sparked by that oneconversation, but it just feels
like this impasse, right?
So I think like I'm thinkingabout what strategies can we use
(06:15):
when you feel like there's anemotional impasse, when a topic
just leads to shutdown andexplosion and doesn't move
forward.
I would say that if you feellike you are stuck in a back and
forth impasse, a deadlock withsomeone you love, where every
time you talk about something,it blows up.
(06:36):
I would say the first,actually, the first strategy is
to think to yourself, what is mygoal here?
I say that with every type ofconflict where emotions can take
over so quickly.
So even before we get there,even before you bring up the
conversation, think to yourself,what do I want to get out of
(06:58):
this?
What is the most importantthing?
I know that we have a lot ofdifferent goals, like I want to
be heard, I want us to getcloser, I want them to get
therapy, I want them to calmdown and see that I love them,
right?
There's a lot of goals.
But sometimes before like a hottopic is brought up, you think
to yourself, okay, if there'sone thing that I accomplish with
(07:20):
this conversation, what wouldthat be?
Right?
It could just be like, you knowwhat?
If I just can, you know, ifthey can open up the idea to get
help for their drinking, andthey might hate me, it might be
ugly, it might be difficult, butif they are willing to just
look into detox centers, I'mhappy.
(07:41):
Or it could be like, you know,the holidays are coming up.
I don't care if my dad sees myperspective on politics.
I just want the actualChristmas day and the gift
unwrapping to be smooth aspossible for the kids, right?
Like, of course, you would wantto all come together and share
(08:03):
opinions and have a lovely,lovely Christmas and it'd be
picture perfect.
But in those kind ofsituations, the best thing to do
is pause yourself and think ifthere's one thing, one outcome
that I could shoot for, it'd bethis, right?
And just focus on that.
And grieve and let go of therest because we can only do one
(08:24):
thing at a time.
So think about your goal willbe the first strategy.
The main strategy that is so,so helpful is validation.
And I know that on thispodcast, we've talked about
validation a lot.
We've had episodes on it,almost every episode about like
(08:44):
how to deal with your loved onesstruggling mental health.
We always say validate,validate, right?
Um, but then it's actually alot harder to put into practice.
It's a it's a very simple skillthat is so hard to master,
especially in high-intensitysituations with high drama, lots
(09:05):
of anger, lots of overwhelm, isand or feeling attacked, right?
It's so hard to validatesomeone else.
So let me just let me justclarify what validation is.
Like a step-by-step, here iswhat validation is.
Validation is communicating tosomeone that you understand
(09:27):
their emotional experience.
Okay.
So you see and recognize whatthey're feeling, and you
communicate to them that itmakes sense.
There's logic behind it.
I kind of get your perspective.
So it's basically empathy pluscommunicating that empathy,
right?
Um I know that sounds sosimple.
(09:51):
Like I say it all the time, andpeople go like nodding them.
So here's another way to thinkabout it.
I love this book.
I'm holding it up so you cansee it in YouTube, but it's it's
one of my favorite books foremotional intelligence.
It's called Never Split theDifference by Chris Voss.
So this is actually a bookabout negotiation.
Chris Voss is an expert innegotiating in hostage
(10:14):
situations, right?
When a terrorist has takensomeone for ransom and you have
to negotiate them to uh the FBIhas to negotiate with them in
order to um keep that personsafe, right?
So I love that you can we canget so much of how do you talk
someone down from the ledge, soto speak, when emotions run
(10:37):
high, when you have to get onthe same page, when you have to
influence what's going on.
You can't, you you, I mean,he's talking about situations
that are so high emotionaltensity, so stressful, and yet
the outcome is really important,right?
Keep that hot hostage safe.
You can't just like argue andwalk away.
You have to get you have to geton the same page and influence
(10:58):
a situation, get control.
So even he says that one of hisfavorite strategies, it's
called tactical empathy, which Ithink it's another word for
validation.
And this is his definition.
He's basically saying anacademic way of saying that
empathy is paying attention toanother human being, asking what
(11:19):
they're feeling, and making acommitment to understanding
their world.
I love that definition.
Making a commitment tounderstanding their world.
Okay.
And so his definition istactical empathy is
understanding the feelings andmindset of another in a moment,
and also hearing what is behindthose feelings so that you can
(11:43):
increase your influence in allthe moments that follow.
Whoa.
Okay.
So even if the idea ofvalidating someone who's
screaming at you sounds likeridiculous, even in hostage
negotiation situations, tacticalempathy or validation, whatever
you want to call it, is a keyskill.
(12:04):
I'll tell you why.
So there's actually such a coolstudy showing that um when you
validate someone else and whenyou validate their feelings, it
actually brings down theiremotion.
It actually helps people calmdown.
So if someone is at a 10 out of10 angry and you validate their
(12:27):
emotion, their anger, and maybewhat's underneath the hurt and
the other emotions and feelingsbehind what's going on with
anger, then there's actuallyevidence showing that heart rate
goes down, skin conductancegoes down, meaning that they're
less sweaty.
So physiologically, emotionsget calmer and are soothed when
(12:48):
you validate.
Whoa.
To our knowledge, validation isthe only skill that we have to
regulate someone else'semotions.
And I'll say that again.
As psychologists and clinicalscientists, we only know of one
(13:13):
skill to regulate someone else'sfeelings.
And that's validation.
So saying, hey, I see youremotions, I see what you're
feeling, and I understand whyyou're feeling it, it's the only
thing that we can do to helpsomeone else feel soothed, to
help calm them down in thatmoment, to get a feeling of
(13:35):
relief.
Now, it doesn't shut down theiremotion, right?
It doesn't, you know, itdoesn't get them to stop feeling
things.
But you know that, you know,that feeling when someone is at
10 out of 10 angry oroverwhelmed, and it's almost
like there's a wall around them,right?
That like they're they're nothearing you, they're not,
they're just like in fight orflight mode.
There, you can't get through tothem, right?
(13:57):
They're arguing, they'redefensive, validating their
feelings and saying, hey, I seewhat you're feeling in it, and
making a commitment tounderstanding your world.
You get this feeling of relief.
That wall comes down, that wallsoftens.
They're they're still feelingthat emotion, because emotions
take time to work through, butthey are more open to you,
(14:18):
right?
Empathy begets empathy.
So when you calm down, when youfeel seen and understood, you
calm down and you're more opento what is this person in front
of me saying?
What is their feedback?
All right.
So there's actually a reallycool study that I love by
Schenck and colleagues in 2011where they had people come in
(14:41):
and do a hard math test or, youknow, these kind of math
problems.
And they had an experimenterwho was either randomized to
invalidate their feelings orvalidate their feelings.
And invalidation looks like, asyou can imagine, treating that
person's emotions as not real,uh, not understandable, not
(15:04):
logical, wrong, invalid, right?
So if you know, if people aredoing these math problems,
they're supposed to be verydifficult and frustrating.
And the experimenter comescomes over and says, Oh, why do
you feel so stressed about this?
This is easy.
Other people are having aneasier time.
It's not a big deal.
In that study, their emotions,their stress response got more
(15:30):
intense when they wereinvalidated.
So their skin conductance meansthey got more sweaty and their
heart raced more.
And so they're, and they theydescribe their experiences like
more distressing and moreunpleasant.
So getting invalidated actuallymade their emotions more
intense.
On the opposite, when they gotvalidated, when they said, when
the experimenter came over andgoes, oh gosh, you know, like
(15:53):
it's okay and makes sense thatyou're stressed out and
frustrated by these mathproblems.
A lot of other people also feelthis way.
It's totally normal.
It actually soothed distress,right?
They, they, their heart ratewent down, their skin conditions
went down, they start to feelmore calm.
So biologically, this works.
And I say that this is the onlyskill that we have to calm
(16:17):
someone else down.
You're like, wait a minute,what I tell my, you know, I tell
people to like take a deepbreath and calm down.
I take a walk.
Yes, you can walk someonethrough strategies that they can
do to calm down.
You could be like, hey, take adeep breath.
And then you're instructingsomeone to regulate.
But this is just like you'renot having them do anything.
(16:39):
You are just doing something toinfluence their emotions.
Okay.
It is so powerful.
Is if you master it, if you'regood at validation, doors open
up.
I really think that that is oneof the most useful skills I've
learned as a therapist.
You know, all of my eight yearsof training to become a
(17:01):
therapist, um, validation is oneof my like my most valuable
skills.
And I can't always access it,right?
I can't always do it right.
There's certain situationswhere I can't actually apply
validation skills and it isalways backfired, it's always,
especially in the situation withmy mom.
Um, but if you're able to justthink of it logically and say,
(17:26):
okay, if my outcome, if thishelps me get to my goal, right?
If this helps me get throughChristmas with no fights or
something like that, to keep thepeace.
Um, or if it's worth it to getthat person to open up to the
idea that they need treatment,they need help for their
drinking, validation might bethe key.
(17:49):
It might be worth it.
It might be worth dealing withtheir own feelings coming up and
being like, okay, I'm justgonna use the validation skill
right now, tactical empathy,seeing and communicating,
understanding for what they'refeeling.
And I'll explain how that howwe do that.
But what it also does is notonly help people calm themselves
(18:11):
in the moment, but it actuallyhelps that person slow down and
identify and label their ownemotions, right?
Like we always say whenemotions run high, name it to
tame it.
Meaning emotions get regulatedwhen they're labeled, when you
have a word for them, when youknow what you're feeling, right?
(18:35):
Like if I'm, I always use thethe example of hunger.
It's like if I'm hungry and I'mjust feeling really intensely
starving, I might feel kind ofoverwhelmed by it.
And I'm just, oh, I'm gonna eatanything.
But if I know what I'm hungryfor, then it there's an even
change in how I experience thathunger.
I'm like, oh no, I'm actuallyreally thirsty.
(18:55):
Oh, and as soon as I label it,it's like, wow, I'm feeling that
my mouth is dry and I'm I'mlooking at all the glasses of
water around me.
It's like, oh, when you tune into what you're really feeling
and what you need, then it'seasier to make sense of what
you're feeling, right?
It's a signal of thirst, notjust general hunger or general
(19:17):
feeling of need, right?
So validating and saying, hey,I see what you're feeling, it
makes sense.
That's so organizing forpeople.
So it really helps to breakthat wall down, to soften that
wall in your back and forthfight, right?
So instead of like buttingheads, it's like, okay, I'm
gonna bring down these wallshere so we can move forward, we
(19:38):
could change the conversationafter this.
Um, empathy and validation alsoenhances trust and closeness,
right?
And also influences how muchinfluence you have over the
situation.
And I want to say fully likeyou can control or manipulate
someone, but if you want, ifyou're like, I gotta get this
person to do something, like asituation that I'm dealing with
(20:02):
right now is that our son, who'sa three-year-old, he just
won't, he says no to everything.
He's just every single thing.
No, no, no, no.
Every step.
You don't know how frustratingit is, unless you have kids, to
get through like a normalbedtime routine with someone
actively resisting it.
Someone like you're like, doyou want to put on a diaper?
(20:24):
No.
You wanna put on a pajamashirt?
No.
You want to brush your teeth?
No, no, no.
You want to go to bed?
No.
And I just I have really lowpatience for this.
My husband is way better atthis, but I'm like, no, you
gotta come on.
Or I just kind of sit like lethim win, right?
It's either like I'm I'm tryingto get him to do something, and
(20:47):
if he says no, then I'm like,oh, fine, okay, I'll wait till
he feels like it.
But sometimes like we gotta gethim to bed, right?
He's gotta listen to me.
So in those moments, validatingand saying, Oh, I see that
you're tired and frustrated, youknow, it could go a long way
because, or even reallyaccurately labeling for a
three-year-old is harder, butlike that you want to play, you
(21:10):
want control, you don't want meto leave, you're scared of the
dark, right?
The feelings that are actuallyleading to the no, if I'm able
to validate that, it worksamazing.
The times that I've been like,he's like, no, I don't want to
brush my teeth, I don't want togo to bed.
And I, and if I go, come on,you gotta, right?
It's just like, it's just gonnamake us into back and forth,
(21:34):
right?
We're just polarized, we'rebutting heads, it's impasse.
No, no, no.
But if I'm able to say, like,hey, buddy, I understand you're
tired, you're frustrated, youdon't want to go to bed.
And I also see that are youscared of the dark?
Maybe you're scared of thedark, and you'll be like, Yeah.
And then I see that he softensa little bit.
He doesn't fully do what I sayin that moment, but I could see
(21:58):
that it changes uh hishard-headedness, right?
It just like softens thestubbornness just a little bit.
He has my kid, so he doesn'tsoften that much, which is
unfortunate.
So if when in doubt, if youfeel like emotions are running
high, or you're in in impasseand you're just like in
(22:18):
deadlock, try validating.
I know that seems weird becauseand whenever I mention this, it
sounds easier.
It's like, okay, great, yeah,whatever.
But when you're in the heat ofthe moment and you are at odds
with someone, it feels weird tovalidate their experience, to
(22:41):
like say yes to something thatthey're telling you about their
perspective.
Some people feel like it islike if I validate their their
feelings, um, it's gonna getworse.
They're gonna feel like they'reright and they're going to get
even more upset.
And I'm I'm just almost addingfuel to the fire.
That is not what actuallyhappens by science.
(23:05):
Um even validating theiremotions, even if in your mind
you think they're wrong forfeeling this.
Um, like for example, if my sonis like, no, no, no, I don't
want to, you know, I don't wantto go to bed.
And I say, I say that you don'twant to go to bed.
I might be afraid that speakingthat out loud or uh, you know,
(23:27):
showing that you understand oracknowledge that might make it
worse, right?
And I was like, then he reallywon't go to bed.
But actually, no, when someonefeels seen and understood,
actually they get a lot moreflexible with it.
They don't have to defendthemselves and be the champion
of that, right?
They're like, oh, you see ittoo.
So, you know, yeah, we could bea little more flexible.
So it has this counterintuitiveeffect of actually opening
(23:52):
someone up, right?
And the reason why this worksis social baseline theory.
So Jim Cohn is a really coolresearcher.
Um, he's at the University ofVirginia, I don't know where he
is now, but he had this reallycool studies about how human
beings are so social that weshare resources.
(24:12):
Um, and we share resources andwe have survived because we are
so social.
We have worked together.
We've made cities, communities,civilizations.
We're the most social primatesout there, and we're able to
survive through sharing theload, like being by each other's
(24:33):
side.
Um, he has such cool studieswhere uh two people, uh a
subject, a participant will lookat a mountain and the
experimental will say, like, howhow hard is it to climb that
mountain?
And that person will be like,Oh yeah, it looks really, really
hard.
And if you just have someonestanding next to you looking at
(24:56):
the same mountain, and if youask them the same thing, like
how hard is it to climb thatmountain?
Even just having someone nextto you that you trust will
change your physical perceptionof the mountain.
You're like, oh, it's not thathigh, it's doable, I can walk
it, right?
I'm I'm summarizing this.
(25:17):
I think the study was a littlebit more like precise and
quantitative than that.
But the point is that if youfeel like you have someone on
your side helping you with aproblem, that problem actually
seems a lot less stressful andchallenging, right?
You have more resources whenyou have someone next to you
seeing what you're seeing.
(25:38):
So it's the difference between,like, if let's say I, you know,
you point to someone and say,hey, climb this mountain, and
they're like, it's really hard.
And you're like, no, you justgotta climb the mountain is the
best thing, right?
That person's gonna be like,it's really hard.
And they're gonna scream moreand more the more they're
invalidated.
But if you stand next to themand say, Oh, I see, I could see,
(26:02):
I understand why you wouldthink that is a really hard
mountain, a mountain to climb.
Suddenly that person hassomeone else seeing the problem
through their eyes.
And then suddenly you go fromlike a person who's just
standing over you and yelling atyou like an adversary, to
someone who is with you.
(26:23):
And that automatically shiftsyour whole orientation to that
person, right?
Someone you're like, oh, thisperson's on my side, they're my
team member.
Now I have more resources, nowI can handle anything.
And I trust that that teammember can see things from my
perspective and understand whatI'm dealing with here.
So that's what validation is.
And I'll kind of go through thesteps of how to actually
(26:45):
validate.
Okay.
So this is a breakdown of howto validate step by step, how to
use tactical empathy step bystep.
The first step is find a partof someone's experience to
validate.
I usually just say emotions.
Um, you could validatesomeone's thoughts, beliefs,
(27:07):
opinions, actions, what they do.
You could be like, yeah, Itotally understand that um, you
know, you're refusing to brushyour teeth because, you know,
you you want to play, right?
Those are all validating thethoughts and behaviors, right?
But emotional experience isgoing to be the biggest bang for
(27:28):
your book.
So saying, I get that you'refeeling upset.
I get, I see that you'refeeling angry.
Oh, you're furious.
That makes sense.
You feel so overwhelmed.
Yeah, I could see why you thinkthis is overwhelming.
Right.
So even labeling, you couldjust, if they have given you any
(27:51):
emotions, any words to describetheir emotions, you could just
repeat it back.
Right.
If they're like, I'm done withthis, you could be like, I get
that you're done with this.
I get that you feel done.
unknown (28:03):
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:03):
If they're not giving any emotions, you can
ask.
You, you know, they're like,ah, this situation and that
situation, then you'd be like,what's going on?
What do you what are youfeeling right now?
What does it make you, whatdoes it bring up for you?
And if they're like, Well, Ijust I'm just furious.
And it's like, yeah, I get whyyou're furious.
So try to label their emotion.
(28:24):
Um don't say you feel this, butif you're not sure, you can
say, like, it seems like you'reupset with me, or it seems like
you're really stressed out.
Is that right?
So you can actually turn thispart into a question, like, what
are you feeling?
What is this emotion you'refeeling?
(28:45):
Okay, let's validate it.
Let's, let's, let's make senseout of it, right?
Um, and if they're like, no,that's not what I'm feeling, you
just go with what they'refeeling.
I don't want to, I don't wantto talk about it.
Okay, makes sense, you don'twant to talk about it.
Right?
So just meeting them wherethey're at.
So find part of someone'sexperience to validate.
(29:08):
And the second one is find thelogic in it.
Why does it make sense?
It might not make sense to you,but why are they feeling that
way?
What came before and what ishappening that is leading to
this emotional reaction?
Could be like, yeah, given yourtrauma history, of course you'd
(29:30):
feel upset at the idea of uhbeing criticized, right?
Or yeah, you're like running onno sleep.
Of course you're tired, ofcourse you're of course you're
overwhelmed, right?
Or an easy phrase to say islike given, yeah, yeah, it makes
sense you're feeling this way,given what you're going through,
(29:53):
right?
Sometimes even just that isvalidating.
Like if you know, I I talked tomy Sister-in-law or my husband,
and I'm like, oh, I'm I'm justI'm not feeling good.
I don't know, blah blah blah.
Like I'm feeling down, I'mfeeling doubt, anxious,
doubtful.
And they might just have thebigger perspective to see see
(30:14):
beyond my like in the momentemotion.
Oh, yeah, given that you'vebeen working so hard, or given
that you're worried about this,or you just had a tough
conversation, so you feeldrained.
Yeah, of course you'd befeeling like this.
It's like, oh wow, you justhelped me make sense of what I'm
feeling, right?
Commitment to understandingsomeone else's world.
(30:35):
It's like they are committed tolike seeing what what my
experience emotional experienceis and why it makes sense,
right?
It's a very logical um exercisebecause it actually is like,
oh, emotions are not popping outof nowhere.
It's actually a anunderstandable reaction to what
(30:57):
just happened, why their beliefsystem, their what they've been
through before.
So communicating yourunderstanding with words,
actions, don't you make you dothis based on what is authentic
to you and that person.
And you got to do it genuinely.
You can't be like, I understandwhy you're feeling this way,
but you could be like, yeah, Iget that you're feeling this
(31:20):
because it seems reallystressful.
Or even just paying attentionis validating, right?
Like, what are you feeling?
Like asking questions is alsovalidating because again, it's
making a commitment tounderstanding that person's
world.
What are you feeling right now?
Why is it so hard?
What about it hurts so much?
(31:42):
And then you pay attention andreflect back what they're what
they're telling you, say whytheir experiences make sense and
be brief about it.
I wouldn't say, I would saythat it might not work as well
if you go, yeah, I get that youhave this going on and this
going on and this going on, andthen you know, we got into a
(32:03):
fight last year, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
Like you might know that, butyou might be like, given all
that you're going through andhow hard this time is, I get why
you're just saying no, no, noto me.
I get that.
I get why you're feeling likefrustrated.
All right.
Be a little bit brief, butunder but be understanding.
Um, and another way to do it islike, you know, you gotta be
(32:25):
vulnerable.
You gotta match them where theyare, right?
Like you can validate with justyour tone or your face.
If some I do this all the timein therapy when I want to um, I
want to hear more of whatsomeone my patients are saying,
and I don't want to interruptthem, but I also want to
validate.
I might like, this is withinZoom world, it really helps
(32:48):
because it's just right on myface, but I just I will nod, I
will make a face based on whatfeeling.
Like if they're telling me asad story, I'll, you know, I'll
feel the sadness and I'll I'llhave the sad face.
And I might say, like, oh,mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Or if they're telling me anangry story, I'd be like, yeah,
(33:11):
oh my God, what?
You know, so I so even justaffect matching, right?
Just mimicking and showing I'mcommitting to understanding what
you're feeling.
I'm there with you, standingnext to you, looking at that
mountain.
That could be validation.
I don't know how to say much,be like, yeah, that makes sense.
I get that, right?
So those are the steps ofvalidation and tactical empathy.
(33:36):
One, find the target of whatyou're validating.
Emotions are the best one.
Two, find the logic at it.
And three, communicating,showing that person that you
understand, not just keeping inyour head and being like, well,
yeah, but you're wrong anyway.
Just like they should know I'mon their side.
No, actually say it.
And you know it's working.
(33:57):
I love, I love when Chris Vosssays this.
You know it's working when youget the magic words.
That's right.
So I love that in Never Splitthe Difference, Chris Voss will
say that you know that tacticalempathy is working when you get
the that's right response.
(34:18):
So unfortunately, you're notgonna get totally like them
being like, oh, you're right.
I'm totally, you know, thankyou for validating.
I feel great, I feel perfect.
But you might see a softening,right?
That wall coming down.
And that person might say,Yeah, that's right.
I I often may not see thatthat's right, but I get the, I
(34:41):
feel the wall coming down, andthey might explain more of their
experience, right?
If they go, oh, and then thishappened and you're doing this,
and you may, you know, you arejudging me if you and I go, I I
see that you're really hurt bysomething I said.
They're like, yeah, and youknow, I was hoping that you'd
understand and you didn't, andblah, blah, blah.
(35:02):
So even if you're just gettingthem to open up more about their
experience, that is themresponding to, okay, I get, I
see that you're trying tounderstand my side.
Right.
Okay, I'm gonna give you moreon my side.
Right.
That's when you know, ah, it'sworking.
If you're not getting that, ifyou're getting shut down, like,
(35:24):
no, that's not, oh no, then youneed to validate more.
You need to maybe ask morequestions or try to validate a
different part of theiremotions.
Or maybe something that youknow is um underneath what
you're seeing.
Like if they're angry and youknow that sadness or hurt are
underneath, it'd be like, yeah,I understand why you're furious.
Yeah, I also can really imaginethat you're feeling scared.
(35:48):
And that makes sense.
It's totally normal to feelscared in this situation, right?
And then you so you see thatsoftness.
And here's a here's an advancedtip.
If someone's someone's shuttingyou out, right?
No, I don't want to talk aboutit.
No, you're wrong.
I don't I don't know what I'mfeeling, right?
This kind of wall.
(36:09):
Validate the wall, validate thefeeling of the wall.
Okay.
I I get that you don't want totalk about it.
I get that you don't know whatyou're feeling.
It's hard, it's hard to figurethat out right now when things
are so intense.
Whoa, right?
So you might be even validatingon validating the shutdown, the
feelings that lead up toshutdown.
Right?
(36:30):
This is like if you're able todo that, that is so it works
wonders.
So that is step-by-stepvalidation.
The mistakes that people tendto make when they validate are
the first one I see is alwaysthey go, it's more of a mistake
of what they think aboutvalidation.
(36:51):
Because validation online islike used all I keep using all
online, but like I think inpopular conversation now, people
are using the word validationto mean just agreeing, right?
Like, I can't validate them.
They're being crazy, they'resaying all these things that
aren't aren't true.
Validating is not agreeing.
Okay.
(37:11):
So even if you're seeingsomeone yell at you and accuse
you of things that you don'tremember happening, um, you
don't say, Yeah, you're right.
I was being a jerk and I was,you know, judging you and making
you wanting you for you to feelterrible.
You're right.
I'm validating you.
No, no, no.
(37:32):
It's I see that you're you'reyou look at the emotion, like,
oh, they're angry, they're hurt,they're, you know, whatever,
and say, I understand why youfeel hurt given that you thought
I was judging you.
You could just you could juststop with the I I see that
you're hurt and it makes sense.
(37:52):
Let's talk about it, right?
But you could also validatethat they have a thought.
You might not agree with thatthought or that belief, right?
You don't be like, yeah, I'm ajerk.
You'd be like, I I totallyunderstand why you feel hurt
given that you think I'm being ajerk.
(38:14):
Right?
You're validating their theirtheir world.
So that's one mistake thatpeople tend to make is I have to
agree with everything they'resaying.
It doesn't make any sense.
No, you just have to find theiremotional experience, the
kernel of truth, and be like, II acknowledge it, I see it, and
(38:35):
I get why you're having that.
Or I might not get it, but I'mnot committed to figuring it out
with you, right?
Um the other mistake peoplemake is jumping into problem
solving or cheerleading or someother kind of really helpful
behavior, right?
(38:55):
So this is this is where peopleget stuck a lot.
I mean, there's a I'm I'mactually gonna link this um
video to the show notes.
So it's gonna be if you want towatch.
It's called Is Not About theNail.
It's a really funny skit wherea man is sitting with his um his
partner and she's saying, Oh, Ihave a I have a headache and uh
(39:15):
so much pressure and I don'tknow what to do and it feels
awful.
And he's looking at her faceand there's a nail coming out of
her head.
It's like a joke, but there's aliterally a nail coming out of
her head in this video.
And he's like, Yeah, you have anail in your head.
Like, let's just take it out.
And she's like, No, that's notwhat I mean.
And so you could see theimpasse happening, right?
(39:37):
And he kept being like, I'mtrying to help you here.
Take that nail out and you willstop feeling these things.
And she's like, No, I just wantyou to listen.
And in that moment, hevalidated, like, yeah, okay,
that sounds hard.
And she was like, Thank you.
So even when you are trying tobe helpful, that can be a lot of
(39:59):
impasses.
I mean, I I know that thesituation often comes up with
someone you care about, right?
Otherwise, why would you keepgetting like butting heads about
something?
Right.
It might be something like, I'mtrying to do something good for
us, or I'm trying to convinceyou of seeing my side that would
ultimately make us closer.
You could see that I love youand I care about you.
(40:20):
I'm not judging you, or um,this decision would be good for
us, or getting help would bebetter for you, right?
So we jump into the problemsolving and like advice giving.
But that is the same thing aswatching someone you love trying
to walk up that mountain andsaying, oh, just it's no big
deal.
Just walk up that mountain.
You just one foot of the rightof the other.
(40:41):
It's so easy.
And that person goes, You'renot seeing this from my side
yet.
You're not seeing thechallenges that I'm facing.
Even if, even if you were togive the same exact advice, even
if you just stand next to themand see how hard that mountain
looks, saying, okay, one foot infront of the other will go a
longer way, right?
So, first, before you jump intoproblem solving, commit to
(41:04):
seeing the problem from theirperspective.
And I know, I know that whenI'm saying this, you're like,
but I want for them to see myperspective.
Like, I don't care, I don'tlike their, you know, I don't
want to validate their emotions.
And when I talk about this,sometimes people rightly so say,
I don't want to validate whensomeone is being hurtful to me.
(41:27):
Like, what if they're beinglike abusive and they're not
seeing my side?
And that is a lot of whathappens with these impasses.
When two people feel a strongemotion and they don't feel
heard by the other person,they're gonna scream louder,
right?
I want this.
No, I want this, no, I so italmost becomes like a
(41:51):
competition for who's gonna beheard, right?
Whose side are we gonna takeright now?
Who's right?
And when you get into thatbattle, then no one's hearing
each other.
You're just both gonna lose.
Right.
So actually, there is researchshowing that when someone feels
(42:11):
like they're being empathizedwith, they're more likely to
extend empathy to someone else.
So if you're like, I want thisperson to see my side, I want
them to commit to understandingmy world.
What doesn't work is keepscreaming louder and louder and
louder.
That just creates a problem.
(42:33):
But is for you to take you tobe the bigger person, you to
take the step and go, okay, Iunderstand, I see what you're
feeling and I understand it.
Don't say, but this is how Ifeel, because that almost
negates what you what you firstsaid.
But they're like, okay, I seeand I understand technical
empathy.
There we go.
I I'm seeing your side.
(42:54):
You can watch them soften, andthen they'd be more open to
yours.
Right?
At that point, you can offer, Iget you're feeling this way, it
makes sense to me.
Let get that that's right, seethe softening, and then and then
you look at this the mountaintogether.
(43:14):
This is the problem that we'redealing with.
At that point, then you cankind of bring in I statements to
describe your side, like I feelthis, I'm reacting to this, I
really think that this isimportant, right?
But actually, if um, and andthat that's a really important
part.
You want to validate, validate,soften, get on the same page,
(43:37):
and even you can pictureyourselves looking at a mountain
together, right?
Like, if two, if you'restruggling with a loved one who
is, you know, drinking a lot andyou're trying, you both, you
both have the same problem.
You and your loved one have thesame problem.
You want that person to behappy.
(43:57):
They want to be happy, theyjust think that drinking is this
is the way there, right?
So you have different paths onthe mountain to the same thing
where it's just like they justwant to feel relief from their
pain.
Um, and so you're like, Itotally get why, you know, when
you're feeling anxious, whenyou're feeling bad, you drink.
I understand that you'refeeling like it's scared of
(44:19):
giving that up, you know, andI'm seeing you get more and more
unhappy.
I'm seeing you withdraw more,I'm seeing you um hurt yourself
more.
I'm scared about that.
That makes me worried.
What do you think?
So after you validate and geton the same page, look at that
mountain together.
(44:39):
So really look at it like I'mlooking at this problem
together.
This is a neutral thing thatwe're looking at together and
taking on together.
At that point, then you couldshare how you're feeling and
then share options.
And this is a really coolstrategy here.
Share options like within therealm of what you want, but give
(45:02):
them options to choose from.
So if you're like, I reallywant this person to get
treatment, I want them to go getinto a detox center and quit
drinking, you'd be like, Well,what do you think?
I'm, you know, we're worriedabout your happiness.
What do you think?
Uh do you think it makes senseto go to a therapist or like a
detox center or a substanceabuse um clinic?
(45:25):
Or what about um a runningclub, right?
Like you can offer suggestionswithin your goal, they achieve
your goal, but let that personmake that choice among those
options.
There is research showing thatif you give someone options and
(45:45):
they choose one, they're waymore likely to do it and commit
to it than if they feel likesomeone told them or forced them
to do it.
Right.
So you could the sneaky thingis give the options that you
want, right?
Um, I try this on my son, itnever really works.
But you it if it's like, I wanthim to get his teeth brushed,
(46:07):
it's like validate.
All right, we got, you know,you you're bread, you have sugar
all over your teeth.
We gotta work on that.
We gotta deal with that.
Um, do you want to brush yourbrush your teeth or do you want
mommy to brush your teeth?
Right?
You're still achieving thatgoal of brushing teeth, but
you're giving you're giving anoption.
So they have they exerciseagency.
(46:29):
So they feel like, not feellike they are a partner with you
in figuring out a solutiontogether to this problem, right?
So those are my those are mytips for how to get through to
someone.
So if you just feel like I haveto talk about this problem or
(46:49):
this topic, and we always buttheads and I'm dreading it, and
it's not gonna go out, alwaysends up terribly, always ends up
in an explosion.
Remember those those skills.
One, figure out what your goalis.
What do you want to get out ofthis?
What do you what is the onething that if you achieved,
you'd be like, all right, I'lltake it.
Two, tactical empathy orvalidation.
(47:11):
The steps are one, find theiremotion or ask about it.
Just just find what they'refeeling, think about why it
makes sense, commit tounderstanding their world, and
then communicating thatunderstanding and do that enough
until you get that that'sright, that relief, that
(47:33):
softening.
And then you look at theproblem together and you'd be
like, what can we do about this?
Here are a couple options thatI'm thinking about.
What do you think?
Right?
Try that out.
I really want to hear how thatgoes.
Um, I will link also neversplit the difference,
negotiating as if your life uhdepended on it by Chris Voss.
(47:56):
Um another thing, too, is thatif you're like, wow, that's
never gonna work.
This is not this.
I I know my loved one, uh, Iknow my sister, I know my my
son, like they're so emotionallyintense.
Like, you know, if I validate,it just explodes.
There's a really cool studythat I just read by Quo and
(48:20):
colleagues that was published in2022.
I'll also link this one thatsays that when you validate
someone who have has emotiondysregulation, have trouble um
dealing with their emotions, ifyou validate their emotions, it
actually goes really well.
They feel really good about itif they were feeling sadness or
(48:40):
shame.
So if you're dealing withsomeone who's just emotionally
dysregulated, struggling withtheir emotions, and they're
feeling sad or ashamed,validation is so powerful.
Part of it is because if theyfeel sadness or shame, having
like someone on their sidefeeling resourced, feeling seen
and understood is solving theproblem, right?
(49:02):
It's like, oh, I feel, I feelseen, I feel, I feel heard, I
feel accepted for my experience.
I'm not alone.
That could be so powerful.
So again, uh never split thedifference by Chris Voss.
I'll link it in the in the shownotes.
And uh, if you want to practicevalidation, you can leave a
(49:23):
five-star rating on ApplePodcasts or Spotify and share
this with a friend.
I really want these skills tojust be out there for anyone who
needs it.
So send this as someone whocould really benefit from
getting a little movement andgetting on the same page with
someone.
Well, I will see you next week.
Bye guys.
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(49:46):
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Thank you.
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends, a podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
Hey little helpers, it's Dr.
Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people youlove.
Coolamine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
(00:22):
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs, or setting boundaries.
Even if you're just curious andwant to chat about it, book a
free call with me by going tothe link in the show notes or
going to kulamind.com,K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click
get started.
Thank you and enjoy the show.
Welcome back, little helpers.
Today I'm going to talk abouthow you can get through to
(00:44):
someone when things get heated.
So how to break out of back andforth conflicts that don't
really go anywhere.
Um, how to calm down andactually get on the same page.
So it's a stressful topic, butI'm actually really happy to be
out here in upstate New York ina lodge with this amazing
background of mountains.
Maybe you can see in thebackground.
(01:04):
So anyone watching on YouTubewill get this lovely view.
So you're checking this out onYouTube, it's really beautiful.
Uh so kulamind, we've beentalking a lot about what to do
when you're always butting headswith someone you're close to.
So if you have someone in yourlife who is struggling with
(01:25):
emotions or their mental health,fights are really common,
right?
Like, even though you're tryingto help, there might be some
just you might be deadlocked oncertain topics.
Like they might think that yourtone of voice or the way that
you're telling them to go totherapy makes them feel really
(01:46):
judged.
And they scream and they lashout and they say no, right?
And then you're, you findyourself like in a heated debate
every single time.
And I've been talking to peoplea lot about what to do when you
just feel like whenever there'slike a certain topic comes up
or there's a trigger that comesup, it's just deadlock where you
(02:09):
can't see eye to eye.
You want to get on the samepage so you can move forward,
but both sides are just like youand that other person are just
stuck in the way you're seeingit and cannot move forward,
cannot get on the same page,cannot collaborate on what to do
next.
I'm hearing this a lot when itcomes to talking to loved ones
(02:32):
about getting help or theirmental health symptoms.
Like hearing a lot when itcomes to telling your child or
your partner, hey, I think yourdrinking is kind of out of
control.
You know, I, you know, I thinkthat you're drinking a little
bit too much, or I think this isaffecting your mood.
(02:54):
You know, I think you shouldcut back or get help.
And the other person goes, no,it's not that problem, and leave
me alone, and everything likethat.
And no matter what, that topiccomes up of drinking or their
mental health, it just, it justcollapses.
It just doesn't go anywhere.
And so it's tough because oftenthose are really important
(03:16):
topics, but then people justlearn to just avoid it.
They're like, there's no waythat I can make any movement
here, and it just makes thingsworse.
So I just won't talk about it.
And that's where resentmentbuilds, right?
Where you just have all theseelephants in the room where you
feel like you can't even touchit because it's just too hot.
You have to touch it with apoker.
I've also heard people talk alot about this in response to my
(03:40):
last episode that I talkedabout projection.
So often someone can readsomething into and interpret
your actions, yourcommunication, your behavior in
a certain way.
And they might be upset aboutit, right?
And then when they get upsetabout it, we might respond like,
(04:03):
no, I didn't mean that, orhere's why I did that.
Here's why it isn't bad.
But then you just you don't seeeye to eye, you can't get past
it.
It just evolves in a hugefight.
Common thing that I have withmy mom about that is whenever I
say no, you know, to somethingthat she's asking, right?
(04:24):
Like um being able to visit orsee my child, and I say no, she
interprets that as punishment orthat I'm doing something
against her, right?
She kind of reads this kind ofhostility in that.
And every time when she says,like, why are you punishing me?
What why are you doing this tome?
(04:44):
There's it feels like there'snothing I can say to make her
feel better or to like see myside, right?
Which is just like, no, it'sjust inconvenient.
It's not about you, it's notabout a relationship.
I just say no for anotherreason.
Right.
She's reading this likehostility from me, this like,
you know, me pushing her away orpunishing her when I don't have
(05:08):
that intention.
And the back and forth is like,wait a minute.
She is upset because the wayshe's interpreting my no, like
why I say no.
So I will make her feel betterby clarifying that that's not
what I meant, right?
Like that'll make her feelbetter to tell her that she's
wrong.
And then always that just getsa deadlock because the more I
(05:31):
try to clarify and argue anddefend my side, the worse the
fight gets.
And I'm just like, what?
Like, what do you do?
What do you do?
And this is just, it's such ahot, a hot topic when you're
dealing with someone with mentalillness, because sometimes what
they're struggling with is morethan just you or that moment or
(05:53):
just that topic.
It's almost like you you'retouching the tip of the iceberg,
and then you're there's a wholelike mountain underneath it,
right?
There's all this pain, all thisstruggle that it might be
sparked by that oneconversation, but it just feels
like this impasse, right?
So I think like I'm thinkingabout what strategies can we use
(06:15):
when you feel like there's anemotional impasse, when a topic
just leads to shutdown andexplosion and doesn't move
forward.
I would say that if you feellike you are stuck in a back and
forth impasse, a deadlock withsomeone you love, where every
time you talk about something,it blows up.
(06:36):
I would say the first,actually, the first strategy is
to think to yourself, what is mygoal here?
I say that with every type ofconflict where emotions can take
over so quickly.
So even before we get there,even before you bring up the
conversation, think to yourself,what do I want to get out of
(06:58):
this?
What is the most importantthing?
I know that we have a lot ofdifferent goals, like I want to
be heard, I want us to getcloser, I want them to get
therapy, I want them to calmdown and see that I love them,
right?
There's a lot of goals.
But sometimes before like a hottopic is brought up, you think
to yourself, okay, if there'sone thing that I accomplish with
(07:20):
this conversation, what wouldthat be?
Right?
It could just be like, you knowwhat?
If I just can, you know, ifthey can open up the idea to get
help for their drinking, andthey might hate me, it might be
ugly, it might be difficult, butif they are willing to just
look into detox centers, I'mhappy.
(07:41):
Or it could be like, you know,the holidays are coming up.
I don't care if my dad sees myperspective on politics.
I just want the actualChristmas day and the gift
unwrapping to be smooth aspossible for the kids, right?
Like, of course, you would wantto all come together and share
(08:03):
opinions and have a lovely,lovely Christmas and it'd be
picture perfect.
But in those kind ofsituations, the best thing to do
is pause yourself and think ifthere's one thing, one outcome
that I could shoot for, it'd bethis, right?
And just focus on that.
And grieve and let go of therest because we can only do one
(08:24):
thing at a time.
So think about your goal willbe the first strategy.
The main strategy that is so,so helpful is validation.
And I know that on thispodcast, we've talked about
validation a lot.
We've had episodes on it,almost every episode about like
(08:44):
how to deal with your loved onesstruggling mental health.
We always say validate,validate, right?
Um, but then it's actually alot harder to put into practice.
It's a it's a very simple skillthat is so hard to master,
especially in high-intensitysituations with high drama, lots
(09:05):
of anger, lots of overwhelm, isand or feeling attacked, right?
It's so hard to validatesomeone else.
So let me just let me justclarify what validation is.
Like a step-by-step, here iswhat validation is.
Validation is communicating tosomeone that you understand
(09:27):
their emotional experience.
Okay.
So you see and recognize whatthey're feeling, and you
communicate to them that itmakes sense.
There's logic behind it.
I kind of get your perspective.
So it's basically empathy pluscommunicating that empathy,
right?
Um I know that sounds sosimple.
(09:51):
Like I say it all the time, andpeople go like nodding them.
So here's another way to thinkabout it.
I love this book.
I'm holding it up so you cansee it in YouTube, but it's it's
one of my favorite books foremotional intelligence.
It's called Never Split theDifference by Chris Voss.
So this is actually a bookabout negotiation.
Chris Voss is an expert innegotiating in hostage
(10:14):
situations, right?
When a terrorist has takensomeone for ransom and you have
to negotiate them to uh the FBIhas to negotiate with them in
order to um keep that personsafe, right?
So I love that you can we canget so much of how do you talk
someone down from the ledge, soto speak, when emotions run
(10:37):
high, when you have to get onthe same page, when you have to
influence what's going on.
You can't, you you, I mean,he's talking about situations
that are so high emotionaltensity, so stressful, and yet
the outcome is really important,right?
Keep that hot hostage safe.
You can't just like argue andwalk away.
You have to get you have to geton the same page and influence
(10:58):
a situation, get control.
So even he says that one of hisfavorite strategies, it's
called tactical empathy, which Ithink it's another word for
validation.
And this is his definition.
He's basically saying anacademic way of saying that
empathy is paying attention toanother human being, asking what
(11:19):
they're feeling, and making acommitment to understanding
their world.
I love that definition.
Making a commitment tounderstanding their world.
Okay.
And so his definition istactical empathy is
understanding the feelings andmindset of another in a moment,
and also hearing what is behindthose feelings so that you can
(11:43):
increase your influence in allthe moments that follow.
Whoa.
Okay.
So even if the idea ofvalidating someone who's
screaming at you sounds likeridiculous, even in hostage
negotiation situations, tacticalempathy or validation, whatever
you want to call it, is a keyskill.
(12:04):
I'll tell you why.
So there's actually such a coolstudy showing that um when you
validate someone else and whenyou validate their feelings, it
actually brings down theiremotion.
It actually helps people calmdown.
So if someone is at a 10 out of10 angry and you validate their
(12:27):
emotion, their anger, and maybewhat's underneath the hurt and
the other emotions and feelingsbehind what's going on with
anger, then there's actuallyevidence showing that heart rate
goes down, skin conductancegoes down, meaning that they're
less sweaty.
So physiologically, emotionsget calmer and are soothed when
(12:48):
you validate.
Whoa.
To our knowledge, validation isthe only skill that we have to
regulate someone else'semotions.
And I'll say that again.
As psychologists and clinicalscientists, we only know of one
(13:13):
skill to regulate someone else'sfeelings.
And that's validation.
So saying, hey, I see youremotions, I see what you're
feeling, and I understand whyyou're feeling it, it's the only
thing that we can do to helpsomeone else feel soothed, to
help calm them down in thatmoment, to get a feeling of
(13:35):
relief.
Now, it doesn't shut down theiremotion, right?
It doesn't, you know, itdoesn't get them to stop feeling
things.
But you know that, you know,that feeling when someone is at
10 out of 10 angry oroverwhelmed, and it's almost
like there's a wall around them,right?
That like they're they're nothearing you, they're not,
they're just like in fight orflight mode.
There, you can't get through tothem, right?
(13:57):
They're arguing, they'redefensive, validating their
feelings and saying, hey, I seewhat you're feeling in it, and
making a commitment tounderstanding your world.
You get this feeling of relief.
That wall comes down, that wallsoftens.
They're they're still feelingthat emotion, because emotions
take time to work through, butthey are more open to you,
(14:18):
right?
Empathy begets empathy.
So when you calm down, when youfeel seen and understood, you
calm down and you're more opento what is this person in front
of me saying?
What is their feedback?
All right.
So there's actually a reallycool study that I love by
Schenck and colleagues in 2011where they had people come in
(14:41):
and do a hard math test or, youknow, these kind of math
problems.
And they had an experimenterwho was either randomized to
invalidate their feelings orvalidate their feelings.
And invalidation looks like, asyou can imagine, treating that
person's emotions as not real,uh, not understandable, not
(15:04):
logical, wrong, invalid, right?
So if you know, if people aredoing these math problems,
they're supposed to be verydifficult and frustrating.
And the experimenter comescomes over and says, Oh, why do
you feel so stressed about this?
This is easy.
Other people are having aneasier time.
It's not a big deal.
In that study, their emotions,their stress response got more
(15:30):
intense when they wereinvalidated.
So their skin conductance meansthey got more sweaty and their
heart raced more.
And so they're, and they theydescribe their experiences like
more distressing and moreunpleasant.
So getting invalidated actuallymade their emotions more
intense.
On the opposite, when they gotvalidated, when they said, when
the experimenter came over andgoes, oh gosh, you know, like
(15:53):
it's okay and makes sense thatyou're stressed out and
frustrated by these mathproblems.
A lot of other people also feelthis way.
It's totally normal.
It actually soothed distress,right?
They, they, their heart ratewent down, their skin conditions
went down, they start to feelmore calm.
So biologically, this works.
And I say that this is the onlyskill that we have to calm
(16:17):
someone else down.
You're like, wait a minute,what I tell my, you know, I tell
people to like take a deepbreath and calm down.
I take a walk.
Yes, you can walk someonethrough strategies that they can
do to calm down.
You could be like, hey, take adeep breath.
And then you're instructingsomeone to regulate.
But this is just like you'renot having them do anything.
(16:39):
You are just doing something toinfluence their emotions.
Okay.
It is so powerful.
Is if you master it, if you'regood at validation, doors open
up.
I really think that that is oneof the most useful skills I've
learned as a therapist.
You know, all of my eight yearsof training to become a
(17:01):
therapist, um, validation is oneof my like my most valuable
skills.
And I can't always access it,right?
I can't always do it right.
There's certain situationswhere I can't actually apply
validation skills and it isalways backfired, it's always,
especially in the situation withmy mom.
Um, but if you're able to justthink of it logically and say,
(17:26):
okay, if my outcome, if thishelps me get to my goal, right?
If this helps me get throughChristmas with no fights or
something like that, to keep thepeace.
Um, or if it's worth it to getthat person to open up to the
idea that they need treatment,they need help for their
drinking, validation might bethe key.
(17:49):
It might be worth it.
It might be worth dealing withtheir own feelings coming up and
being like, okay, I'm justgonna use the validation skill
right now, tactical empathy,seeing and communicating,
understanding for what they'refeeling.
And I'll explain how that howwe do that.
But what it also does is notonly help people calm themselves
(18:11):
in the moment, but it actuallyhelps that person slow down and
identify and label their ownemotions, right?
Like we always say whenemotions run high, name it to
tame it.
Meaning emotions get regulatedwhen they're labeled, when you
have a word for them, when youknow what you're feeling, right?
(18:35):
Like if I'm, I always use thethe example of hunger.
It's like if I'm hungry and I'mjust feeling really intensely
starving, I might feel kind ofoverwhelmed by it.
And I'm just, oh, I'm gonna eatanything.
But if I know what I'm hungryfor, then it there's an even
change in how I experience thathunger.
I'm like, oh no, I'm actuallyreally thirsty.
(18:55):
Oh, and as soon as I label it,it's like, wow, I'm feeling that
my mouth is dry and I'm I'mlooking at all the glasses of
water around me.
It's like, oh, when you tune into what you're really feeling
and what you need, then it'seasier to make sense of what
you're feeling, right?
It's a signal of thirst, notjust general hunger or general
(19:17):
feeling of need, right?
So validating and saying, hey,I see what you're feeling, it
makes sense.
That's so organizing forpeople.
So it really helps to breakthat wall down, to soften that
wall in your back and forthfight, right?
So instead of like buttingheads, it's like, okay, I'm
gonna bring down these wallshere so we can move forward, we
(19:38):
could change the conversationafter this.
Um, empathy and validation alsoenhances trust and closeness,
right?
And also influences how muchinfluence you have over the
situation.
And I want to say fully likeyou can control or manipulate
someone, but if you want, ifyou're like, I gotta get this
person to do something, like asituation that I'm dealing with
(20:02):
right now is that our son, who'sa three-year-old, he just
won't, he says no to everything.
He's just every single thing.
No, no, no, no.
Every step.
You don't know how frustratingit is, unless you have kids, to
get through like a normalbedtime routine with someone
actively resisting it.
Someone like you're like, doyou want to put on a diaper?
(20:24):
No.
You wanna put on a pajamashirt?
No.
You want to brush your teeth?
No, no, no.
You want to go to bed?
No.
And I just I have really lowpatience for this.
My husband is way better atthis, but I'm like, no, you
gotta come on.
Or I just kind of sit like lethim win, right?
It's either like I'm I'm tryingto get him to do something, and
(20:47):
if he says no, then I'm like,oh, fine, okay, I'll wait till
he feels like it.
But sometimes like we gotta gethim to bed, right?
He's gotta listen to me.
So in those moments, validatingand saying, Oh, I see that
you're tired and frustrated, youknow, it could go a long way
because, or even reallyaccurately labeling for a
three-year-old is harder, butlike that you want to play, you
(21:10):
want control, you don't want meto leave, you're scared of the
dark, right?
The feelings that are actuallyleading to the no, if I'm able
to validate that, it worksamazing.
The times that I've been like,he's like, no, I don't want to
brush my teeth, I don't want togo to bed.
And I, and if I go, come on,you gotta, right?
It's just like, it's just gonnamake us into back and forth,
(21:34):
right?
We're just polarized, we'rebutting heads, it's impasse.
No, no, no.
But if I'm able to say, like,hey, buddy, I understand you're
tired, you're frustrated, youdon't want to go to bed.
And I also see that are youscared of the dark?
Maybe you're scared of thedark, and you'll be like, Yeah.
And then I see that he softensa little bit.
He doesn't fully do what I sayin that moment, but I could see
(21:58):
that it changes uh hishard-headedness, right?
It just like softens thestubbornness just a little bit.
He has my kid, so he doesn'tsoften that much, which is
unfortunate.
So if when in doubt, if youfeel like emotions are running
high, or you're in in impasseand you're just like in
(22:18):
deadlock, try validating.
I know that seems weird becauseand whenever I mention this, it
sounds easier.
It's like, okay, great, yeah,whatever.
But when you're in the heat ofthe moment and you are at odds
with someone, it feels weird tovalidate their experience, to
(22:41):
like say yes to something thatthey're telling you about their
perspective.
Some people feel like it islike if I validate their their
feelings, um, it's gonna getworse.
They're gonna feel like they'reright and they're going to get
even more upset.
And I'm I'm just almost addingfuel to the fire.
That is not what actuallyhappens by science.
(23:05):
Um even validating theiremotions, even if in your mind
you think they're wrong forfeeling this.
Um, like for example, if my sonis like, no, no, no, I don't
want to, you know, I don't wantto go to bed.
And I say, I say that you don'twant to go to bed.
I might be afraid that speakingthat out loud or uh, you know,
(23:27):
showing that you understand oracknowledge that might make it
worse, right?
And I was like, then he reallywon't go to bed.
But actually, no, when someonefeels seen and understood,
actually they get a lot moreflexible with it.
They don't have to defendthemselves and be the champion
of that, right?
They're like, oh, you see ittoo.
So, you know, yeah, we could bea little more flexible.
So it has this counterintuitiveeffect of actually opening
(23:52):
someone up, right?
And the reason why this worksis social baseline theory.
So Jim Cohn is a really coolresearcher.
Um, he's at the University ofVirginia, I don't know where he
is now, but he had this reallycool studies about how human
beings are so social that weshare resources.
(24:12):
Um, and we share resources andwe have survived because we are
so social.
We have worked together.
We've made cities, communities,civilizations.
We're the most social primatesout there, and we're able to
survive through sharing theload, like being by each other's
(24:33):
side.
Um, he has such cool studieswhere uh two people, uh a
subject, a participant will lookat a mountain and the
experimental will say, like, howhow hard is it to climb that
mountain?
And that person will be like,Oh yeah, it looks really, really
hard.
And if you just have someonestanding next to you looking at
(24:56):
the same mountain, and if youask them the same thing, like
how hard is it to climb thatmountain?
Even just having someone nextto you that you trust will
change your physical perceptionof the mountain.
You're like, oh, it's not thathigh, it's doable, I can walk
it, right?
I'm I'm summarizing this.
(25:17):
I think the study was a littlebit more like precise and
quantitative than that.
But the point is that if youfeel like you have someone on
your side helping you with aproblem, that problem actually
seems a lot less stressful andchallenging, right?
You have more resources whenyou have someone next to you
seeing what you're seeing.
(25:38):
So it's the difference between,like, if let's say I, you know,
you point to someone and say,hey, climb this mountain, and
they're like, it's really hard.
And you're like, no, you justgotta climb the mountain is the
best thing, right?
That person's gonna be like,it's really hard.
And they're gonna scream moreand more the more they're
invalidated.
But if you stand next to themand say, Oh, I see, I could see,
(26:02):
I understand why you wouldthink that is a really hard
mountain, a mountain to climb.
Suddenly that person hassomeone else seeing the problem
through their eyes.
And then suddenly you go fromlike a person who's just
standing over you and yelling atyou like an adversary, to
someone who is with you.
(26:23):
And that automatically shiftsyour whole orientation to that
person, right?
Someone you're like, oh, thisperson's on my side, they're my
team member.
Now I have more resources, nowI can handle anything.
And I trust that that teammember can see things from my
perspective and understand whatI'm dealing with here.
So that's what validation is.
And I'll kind of go through thesteps of how to actually
(26:45):
validate.
Okay.
So this is a breakdown of howto validate step by step, how to
use tactical empathy step bystep.
The first step is find a partof someone's experience to
validate.
I usually just say emotions.
Um, you could validatesomeone's thoughts, beliefs,
(27:07):
opinions, actions, what they do.
You could be like, yeah, Itotally understand that um, you
know, you're refusing to brushyour teeth because, you know,
you you want to play, right?
Those are all validating thethoughts and behaviors, right?
But emotional experience isgoing to be the biggest bang for
(27:28):
your book.
So saying, I get that you'refeeling upset.
I get, I see that you'refeeling angry.
Oh, you're furious.
That makes sense.
You feel so overwhelmed.
Yeah, I could see why you thinkthis is overwhelming.
Right.
So even labeling, you couldjust, if they have given you any
(27:51):
emotions, any words to describetheir emotions, you could just
repeat it back.
Right.
If they're like, I'm done withthis, you could be like, I get
that you're done with this.
I get that you feel done.
unknown (28:03):
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:03):
If they're not giving any emotions, you can
ask.
You, you know, they're like,ah, this situation and that
situation, then you'd be like,what's going on?
What do you what are youfeeling right now?
What does it make you, whatdoes it bring up for you?
And if they're like, Well, Ijust I'm just furious.
And it's like, yeah, I get whyyou're furious.
So try to label their emotion.
(28:24):
Um don't say you feel this, butif you're not sure, you can
say, like, it seems like you'reupset with me, or it seems like
you're really stressed out.
Is that right?
So you can actually turn thispart into a question, like, what
are you feeling?
What is this emotion you'refeeling?
(28:45):
Okay, let's validate it.
Let's, let's, let's make senseout of it, right?
Um, and if they're like, no,that's not what I'm feeling, you
just go with what they'refeeling.
I don't want to, I don't wantto talk about it.
Okay, makes sense, you don'twant to talk about it.
Right?
So just meeting them wherethey're at.
So find part of someone'sexperience to validate.
(29:08):
And the second one is find thelogic in it.
Why does it make sense?
It might not make sense to you,but why are they feeling that
way?
What came before and what ishappening that is leading to
this emotional reaction?
Could be like, yeah, given yourtrauma history, of course you'd
(29:30):
feel upset at the idea of uhbeing criticized, right?
Or yeah, you're like running onno sleep.
Of course you're tired, ofcourse you're of course you're
overwhelmed, right?
Or an easy phrase to say islike given, yeah, yeah, it makes
sense you're feeling this way,given what you're going through,
(29:53):
right?
Sometimes even just that isvalidating.
Like if you know, I I talked tomy Sister-in-law or my husband,
and I'm like, oh, I'm I'm justI'm not feeling good.
I don't know, blah blah blah.
Like I'm feeling down, I'mfeeling doubt, anxious,
doubtful.
And they might just have thebigger perspective to see see
(30:14):
beyond my like in the momentemotion.
Oh, yeah, given that you'vebeen working so hard, or given
that you're worried about this,or you just had a tough
conversation, so you feeldrained.
Yeah, of course you'd befeeling like this.
It's like, oh wow, you justhelped me make sense of what I'm
feeling, right?
Commitment to understandingsomeone else's world.
(30:35):
It's like they are committed tolike seeing what what my
experience emotional experienceis and why it makes sense,
right?
It's a very logical um exercisebecause it actually is like,
oh, emotions are not popping outof nowhere.
It's actually a anunderstandable reaction to what
(30:57):
just happened, why their beliefsystem, their what they've been
through before.
So communicating yourunderstanding with words,
actions, don't you make you dothis based on what is authentic
to you and that person.
And you got to do it genuinely.
You can't be like, I understandwhy you're feeling this way,
but you could be like, yeah, Iget that you're feeling this
(31:20):
because it seems reallystressful.
Or even just paying attentionis validating, right?
Like, what are you feeling?
Like asking questions is alsovalidating because again, it's
making a commitment tounderstanding that person's
world.
What are you feeling right now?
Why is it so hard?
What about it hurts so much?
(31:42):
And then you pay attention andreflect back what they're what
they're telling you, say whytheir experiences make sense and
be brief about it.
I wouldn't say, I would saythat it might not work as well
if you go, yeah, I get that youhave this going on and this
going on and this going on, andthen you know, we got into a
(32:03):
fight last year, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
Like you might know that, butyou might be like, given all
that you're going through andhow hard this time is, I get why
you're just saying no, no, noto me.
I get that.
I get why you're feeling likefrustrated.
All right.
Be a little bit brief, butunder but be understanding.
Um, and another way to do it islike, you know, you gotta be
(32:25):
vulnerable.
You gotta match them where theyare, right?
Like you can validate with justyour tone or your face.
If some I do this all the timein therapy when I want to um, I
want to hear more of whatsomeone my patients are saying,
and I don't want to interruptthem, but I also want to
validate.
I might like, this is withinZoom world, it really helps
(32:48):
because it's just right on myface, but I just I will nod, I
will make a face based on whatfeeling.
Like if they're telling me asad story, I'll, you know, I'll
feel the sadness and I'll I'llhave the sad face.
And I might say, like, oh,mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Or if they're telling me anangry story, I'd be like, yeah,
(33:11):
oh my God, what?
You know, so I so even justaffect matching, right?
Just mimicking and showing I'mcommitting to understanding what
you're feeling.
I'm there with you, standingnext to you, looking at that
mountain.
That could be validation.
I don't know how to say much,be like, yeah, that makes sense.
I get that, right?
So those are the steps ofvalidation and tactical empathy.
(33:36):
One, find the target of whatyou're validating.
Emotions are the best one.
Two, find the logic at it.
And three, communicating,showing that person that you
understand, not just keeping inyour head and being like, well,
yeah, but you're wrong anyway.
Just like they should know I'mon their side.
No, actually say it.
And you know it's working.
(33:57):
I love, I love when Chris Vosssays this.
You know it's working when youget the magic words.
That's right.
So I love that in Never Splitthe Difference, Chris Voss will
say that you know that tacticalempathy is working when you get
the that's right response.
(34:18):
So unfortunately, you're notgonna get totally like them
being like, oh, you're right.
I'm totally, you know, thankyou for validating.
I feel great, I feel perfect.
But you might see a softening,right?
That wall coming down.
And that person might say,Yeah, that's right.
I I often may not see thatthat's right, but I get the, I
(34:41):
feel the wall coming down, andthey might explain more of their
experience, right?
If they go, oh, and then thishappened and you're doing this,
and you may, you know, you arejudging me if you and I go, I I
see that you're really hurt bysomething I said.
They're like, yeah, and youknow, I was hoping that you'd
understand and you didn't, andblah, blah, blah.
(35:02):
So even if you're just gettingthem to open up more about their
experience, that is themresponding to, okay, I get, I
see that you're trying tounderstand my side.
Right.
Okay, I'm gonna give you moreon my side.
Right.
That's when you know, ah, it'sworking.
If you're not getting that, ifyou're getting shut down, like,
(35:24):
no, that's not, oh no, then youneed to validate more.
You need to maybe ask morequestions or try to validate a
different part of theiremotions.
Or maybe something that youknow is um underneath what
you're seeing.
Like if they're angry and youknow that sadness or hurt are
underneath, it'd be like, yeah,I understand why you're furious.
Yeah, I also can really imaginethat you're feeling scared.
(35:48):
And that makes sense.
It's totally normal to feelscared in this situation, right?
And then you so you see thatsoftness.
And here's a here's an advancedtip.
If someone's someone's shuttingyou out, right?
No, I don't want to talk aboutit.
No, you're wrong.
I don't I don't know what I'mfeeling, right?
This kind of wall.
(36:09):
Validate the wall, validate thefeeling of the wall.
Okay.
I I get that you don't want totalk about it.
I get that you don't know whatyou're feeling.
It's hard, it's hard to figurethat out right now when things
are so intense.
Whoa, right?
So you might be even validatingon validating the shutdown, the
feelings that lead up toshutdown.
Right?
(36:30):
This is like if you're able todo that, that is so it works
wonders.
So that is step-by-stepvalidation.
The mistakes that people tendto make when they validate are
the first one I see is alwaysthey go, it's more of a mistake
of what they think aboutvalidation.
(36:51):
Because validation online islike used all I keep using all
online, but like I think inpopular conversation now, people
are using the word validationto mean just agreeing, right?
Like, I can't validate them.
They're being crazy, they'resaying all these things that
aren't aren't true.
Validating is not agreeing.
Okay.
(37:11):
So even if you're seeingsomeone yell at you and accuse
you of things that you don'tremember happening, um, you
don't say, Yeah, you're right.
I was being a jerk and I was,you know, judging you and making
you wanting you for you to feelterrible.
You're right.
I'm validating you.
No, no, no.
(37:32):
It's I see that you're you'reyou look at the emotion, like,
oh, they're angry, they're hurt,they're, you know, whatever,
and say, I understand why youfeel hurt given that you thought
I was judging you.
You could just you could juststop with the I I see that
you're hurt and it makes sense.
(37:52):
Let's talk about it, right?
But you could also validatethat they have a thought.
You might not agree with thatthought or that belief, right?
You don't be like, yeah, I'm ajerk.
You'd be like, I I totallyunderstand why you feel hurt
given that you think I'm being ajerk.
(38:14):
Right?
You're validating their theirtheir world.
So that's one mistake thatpeople tend to make is I have to
agree with everything they'resaying.
It doesn't make any sense.
No, you just have to find theiremotional experience, the
kernel of truth, and be like, II acknowledge it, I see it, and
(38:35):
I get why you're having that.
Or I might not get it, but I'mnot committed to figuring it out
with you, right?
Um the other mistake peoplemake is jumping into problem
solving or cheerleading or someother kind of really helpful
behavior, right?
(38:55):
So this is this is where peopleget stuck a lot.
I mean, there's a I'm I'mactually gonna link this um
video to the show notes.
So it's gonna be if you want towatch.
It's called Is Not About theNail.
It's a really funny skit wherea man is sitting with his um his
partner and she's saying, Oh, Ihave a I have a headache and uh
(39:15):
so much pressure and I don'tknow what to do and it feels
awful.
And he's looking at her faceand there's a nail coming out of
her head.
It's like a joke, but there's aliterally a nail coming out of
her head in this video.
And he's like, Yeah, you have anail in your head.
Like, let's just take it out.
And she's like, No, that's notwhat I mean.
And so you could see theimpasse happening, right?
(39:37):
And he kept being like, I'mtrying to help you here.
Take that nail out and you willstop feeling these things.
And she's like, No, I just wantyou to listen.
And in that moment, hevalidated, like, yeah, okay,
that sounds hard.
And she was like, Thank you.
So even when you are trying tobe helpful, that can be a lot of
(39:59):
impasses.
I mean, I I know that thesituation often comes up with
someone you care about, right?
Otherwise, why would you keepgetting like butting heads about
something?
Right.
It might be something like, I'mtrying to do something good for
us, or I'm trying to convinceyou of seeing my side that would
ultimately make us closer.
You could see that I love youand I care about you.
(40:20):
I'm not judging you, or um,this decision would be good for
us, or getting help would bebetter for you, right?
So we jump into the problemsolving and like advice giving.
But that is the same thing aswatching someone you love trying
to walk up that mountain andsaying, oh, just it's no big
deal.
Just walk up that mountain.
You just one foot of the rightof the other.
(40:41):
It's so easy.
And that person goes, You'renot seeing this from my side
yet.
You're not seeing thechallenges that I'm facing.
Even if, even if you were togive the same exact advice, even
if you just stand next to themand see how hard that mountain
looks, saying, okay, one foot infront of the other will go a
longer way, right?
So, first, before you jump intoproblem solving, commit to
(41:04):
seeing the problem from theirperspective.
And I know, I know that whenI'm saying this, you're like,
but I want for them to see myperspective.
Like, I don't care, I don'tlike their, you know, I don't
want to validate their emotions.
And when I talk about this,sometimes people rightly so say,
I don't want to validate whensomeone is being hurtful to me.
(41:27):
Like, what if they're beinglike abusive and they're not
seeing my side?
And that is a lot of whathappens with these impasses.
When two people feel a strongemotion and they don't feel
heard by the other person,they're gonna scream louder,
right?
I want this.
No, I want this, no, I so italmost becomes like a
(41:51):
competition for who's gonna beheard, right?
Whose side are we gonna takeright now?
Who's right?
And when you get into thatbattle, then no one's hearing
each other.
You're just both gonna lose.
Right.
So actually, there is researchshowing that when someone feels
(42:11):
like they're being empathizedwith, they're more likely to
extend empathy to someone else.
So if you're like, I want thisperson to see my side, I want
them to commit to understandingmy world.
What doesn't work is keepscreaming louder and louder and
louder.
That just creates a problem.
(42:33):
But is for you to take you tobe the bigger person, you to
take the step and go, okay, Iunderstand, I see what you're
feeling and I understand it.
Don't say, but this is how Ifeel, because that almost
negates what you what you firstsaid.
But they're like, okay, I seeand I understand technical
empathy.
There we go.
I I'm seeing your side.
(42:54):
You can watch them soften, andthen they'd be more open to
yours.
Right?
At that point, you can offer, Iget you're feeling this way, it
makes sense to me.
Let get that that's right, seethe softening, and then and then
you look at this the mountaintogether.
(43:14):
This is the problem that we'redealing with.
At that point, then you cankind of bring in I statements to
describe your side, like I feelthis, I'm reacting to this, I
really think that this isimportant, right?
But actually, if um, and andthat that's a really important
part.
You want to validate, validate,soften, get on the same page,
(43:37):
and even you can pictureyourselves looking at a mountain
together, right?
Like, if two, if you'restruggling with a loved one who
is, you know, drinking a lot andyou're trying, you both, you
both have the same problem.
You and your loved one have thesame problem.
You want that person to behappy.
(43:57):
They want to be happy, theyjust think that drinking is this
is the way there, right?
So you have different paths onthe mountain to the same thing
where it's just like they justwant to feel relief from their
pain.
Um, and so you're like, Itotally get why, you know, when
you're feeling anxious, whenyou're feeling bad, you drink.
I understand that you'refeeling like it's scared of
(44:19):
giving that up, you know, andI'm seeing you get more and more
unhappy.
I'm seeing you withdraw more,I'm seeing you um hurt yourself
more.
I'm scared about that.
That makes me worried.
What do you think?
So after you validate and geton the same page, look at that
mountain together.
(44:39):
So really look at it like I'mlooking at this problem
together.
This is a neutral thing thatwe're looking at together and
taking on together.
At that point, then you couldshare how you're feeling and
then share options.
And this is a really coolstrategy here.
Share options like within therealm of what you want, but give
(45:02):
them options to choose from.
So if you're like, I reallywant this person to get
treatment, I want them to go getinto a detox center and quit
drinking, you'd be like, Well,what do you think?
I'm, you know, we're worriedabout your happiness.
What do you think?
Uh do you think it makes senseto go to a therapist or like a
detox center or a substanceabuse um clinic?
(45:25):
Or what about um a runningclub, right?
Like you can offer suggestionswithin your goal, they achieve
your goal, but let that personmake that choice among those
options.
There is research showing thatif you give someone options and
(45:45):
they choose one, they're waymore likely to do it and commit
to it than if they feel likesomeone told them or forced them
to do it.
Right.
So you could the sneaky thingis give the options that you
want, right?
Um, I try this on my son, itnever really works.
But you it if it's like, I wanthim to get his teeth brushed,
(46:07):
it's like validate.
All right, we got, you know,you you're bread, you have sugar
all over your teeth.
We gotta work on that.
We gotta deal with that.
Um, do you want to brush yourbrush your teeth or do you want
mommy to brush your teeth?
Right?
You're still achieving thatgoal of brushing teeth, but
you're giving you're giving anoption.
So they have they exerciseagency.
(46:29):
So they feel like, not feellike they are a partner with you
in figuring out a solutiontogether to this problem, right?
So those are my those are mytips for how to get through to
someone.
So if you just feel like I haveto talk about this problem or
(46:49):
this topic, and we always buttheads and I'm dreading it, and
it's not gonna go out, alwaysends up terribly, always ends up
in an explosion.
Remember those those skills.
One, figure out what your goalis.
What do you want to get out ofthis?
What do you what is the onething that if you achieved,
you'd be like, all right, I'lltake it.
Two, tactical empathy orvalidation.
(47:11):
The steps are one, find theiremotion or ask about it.
Just just find what they'refeeling, think about why it
makes sense, commit tounderstanding their world, and
then communicating thatunderstanding and do that enough
until you get that that'sright, that relief, that
(47:33):
softening.
And then you look at theproblem together and you'd be
like, what can we do about this?
Here are a couple options thatI'm thinking about.
What do you think?
Right?
Try that out.
I really want to hear how thatgoes.
Um, I will link also neversplit the difference,
negotiating as if your life uhdepended on it by Chris Voss.
(47:56):
Um another thing, too, is thatif you're like, wow, that's
never gonna work.
This is not this.
I I know my loved one, uh, Iknow my sister, I know my my
son, like they're so emotionallyintense.
Like, you know, if I validate,it just explodes.
There's a really cool studythat I just read by Quo and
(48:20):
colleagues that was published in2022.
I'll also link this one thatsays that when you validate
someone who have has emotiondysregulation, have trouble um
dealing with their emotions, ifyou validate their emotions, it
actually goes really well.
They feel really good about itif they were feeling sadness or
(48:40):
shame.
So if you're dealing withsomeone who's just emotionally
dysregulated, struggling withtheir emotions, and they're
feeling sad or ashamed,validation is so powerful.
Part of it is because if theyfeel sadness or shame, having
like someone on their sidefeeling resourced, feeling seen
and understood is solving theproblem, right?
(49:02):
It's like, oh, I feel, I feelseen, I feel, I feel heard, I
feel accepted for my experience.
I'm not alone.
That could be so powerful.
So again, uh never split thedifference by Chris Voss.
I'll link it in the in the shownotes.
And uh, if you want to practicevalidation, you can leave a
(49:23):
five-star rating on ApplePodcasts or Spotify and share
this with a friend.
I really want these skills tojust be out there for anyone who
needs it.
So send this as someone whocould really benefit from
getting a little movement andgetting on the same page with
someone.
Well, I will see you next week.
Bye guys.
By accessing this podcast, youacknowledge that the host of
(49:46):
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to the accuracy or sufficiencyof information featured in this
podcast.
The information, opinions, andrecommendations presented in
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any reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
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This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(50:10):
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
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(50:32):
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