Exploring Ethical Non-Monogamy: Redefining Commitment and Navigating Open Relationships

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends, a podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
Today we're going to do anepisode I've wanted to do for a
really long time but I've beenwaiting for a guest and that
hasn't panned out because it's adeeply personal episode.

(00:20):
So I think we're going to tryto get a guest, maybe for a
second episode, but for now,Kibby and I want to open up the
topic, in part because one ofyou actually requested it.
So the requested episode was onopen relationships.
I'm going to suggest that webroaden it a little bit to say
ethical non-monogamy, of whichopen relationships is a type of

(00:43):
relationship within E&M.
But I'll read you the questionand then we can start discussing
.
So the listener said "I justlistened to the episode on
situationships or friends withbenefits and I have so many
questions.
Why are women more likely tocatch feelings in these
situations?
Does research show that theyare?
Can you do an episode on openrelationships situations?

(01:05):
Does research show that theyare?
Can you do an episode on openrelationships?
I'm in an open marriage, datingfive sorry, dating nine years,
married for two, and we largelyopened the marriage because I
wanted more experience with sex,but I found that sex without
feelings isn't as good to me.
So now I at least want to trust, slash, value my other partners
without necessarily falling inlove with them.
Hope they can do the sametowards me.
I know I'm playing with fire,but that's part of what I get

(01:27):
out of it.
It's fun and exciting.
I just wonder what your generaladvice would be on open
relationships.
Slash what the research says.
" Okay, this person is fromMissouri, which actually I think
adds an interesting element tothis.
I have been kind of adjacent tothe E&M community, or I was at

(01:48):
least.
When I lived in New York lasttime I dated somebody for a bit
who had been E&M for like 10years.
E&M is ethical non-monogamyright, Ethical non-monogamy,
which basically means thatyou're non-monogamous but it's
consensual.
You know you're trying to dothis but it's consensual.
You know you're you're you'retrying to do this in an ethical
way, in an intentional way.

(02:08):
And I think the first, thereason I think the Missouri
piece is interesting is thatwhen I was kind of adjacent to
this adjacent meeting, like Iwould, I was dating this guy who
was E&M and all of his friendswere E&M and we would hang out
with them, We'd go to theirparties.
They had a set community.

(02:29):
That, I think, made it easierto do this.
And it does interest me thatthis person is in Missouri,
because I would think that thatwould be very different.
So we can just put a pin inthat.
But I do think it might be aconsideration of, like, where
you live.
Are you thinking of doing thisand how that might influence
your choice.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:48):
Yeah, and, by the way, we love that you guys
have written in with questions.
So if you ever have questionsor topic suggestions or anything
we want to address, in yourshow notes it says send us a
text or something like that.
Just click that, that and youcould text us directly.
We can't text you back there,so if you want us to respond,

(03:09):
put your email there.
But we love this, we love thatMissouri wrote wrote us with
this question.

So thank you you can also, of course,
write to me on Instagram atTrumbelina, or Kibbe at Kulamata
.
Okay, so I'm trying to thinkwhere we should start.
E E&M is a specific topic, butalso kind of a broad topic
because it's an umbrella termthat contains a bunch of
different kinds of relationships, which creates a bit of a

(03:34):
research dilemma, sort of likethe situationships or friends
with benefits thing did of likewhat are we actually talking
about?
This person requested openrelationships, which can itself
mean a lot of things, but Ithink most typically it refers
to you have a primary partner,you two are committed, but you
can have like extramarital sexor sorry, you don't have to be

(03:59):
married, you can have sexoutside of the relationship.
The extent of the, I guess,commitment or feelings for the
other people is a little bitlike less specified.
But if we're talking about arelationship where you have like

(04:20):
multiple full on relationships,then colloquially people say
that's polyamory.
The research literature was alittle bit more vague about that
.
So I just feel like, once again, when we were researching this
topic, it was like it was just alittle bit all over the place,
because it's trying to refer toso many things.

(04:41):
I don't know what are your like.
What are your thoughts on thatand what comes up for you when
you hear E&M?
Yeah, I don't know what areyour thoughts on that and what
comes up for you when you hearE&M.

Yeah, I mean, when we were talking about this
, I really wanted to know what'sthe definition of an open
relationship versus polyamory,because I wanted to address them
separately in separate episodes, in separate episodes and I'm

(05:09):
like, okay, well then I guess itmust be the expectation about
what those quote otherrelationships are like.
Or maybe, in my mind, open openrelationships mean there's like
one central relationship thatyou're in and then you can
engage in sex with other people.
But what does that mean If it'slike you can engage in sex with
other people?
But what does that mean if it'slike you can engage in sex with
the same person, right?
Like, let's say you have you'rein a marriage or partnership?

(05:32):
and then you have sex withsomeone else consistently, like
a relationship with someone else.
Is that polyamory, because thenit's like a consistent
relationship with multiplepeople, or is that an open
relationship?
So my first question is what iswhat?

What are the definitions here?
No, it's tough, and so I thinkour purpose in today's episode
is not to give some like expertopinion on this, but rather
introduce the topic, startintroducing the terms and talk
about what you know differentelements of it that can make it
more successful or not.

(06:11):
Um, and then just ourpsychological perspective.
But I don't want this to beconfused with like a we are
experts on E&M and you knowwe're going to throw down, and
in part it's because of this.
I mean, it's a little bit hardfor me to say who would be an
expert on E&M, who isn't in oneof these relationships, because
that's just the research ismuddy.

(06:36):
I like the term E&M because Iknow a lot of people in these
relationships and every singlecouple looks totally different.
I know a couple where theirkink is like watching each other
have sex with other people, butthere is no allowance for
continuing those relationships.
I know a couple where they areprimary partners.

(07:01):
They're not looking forrelationships with others, but
they are looking to consistentlydate other people, and one of
the reasons is bisexuality.
You know, one of the people isbisexual and so likes to explore
with both.
The other is a kinkster and solikes to explore his kink in
other relationships.
I know I know someone who hasmultiple boyfriends and

(07:25):
girlfriends.
They're also queer.
I know married couples who goto sex parties regularly.
It's such a gamut.
Anyone looks at E&M and askquestions about it.

(07:46):
It's kind of like looking atmonogamous relationships, like
it's.
It's a bit hard to say ismonogamy successful?
Like what makes it successful?
Because that just even withinmonogamous relationships there's
such a variation in diversity.
Obviously it's specific thatyou're just together, but that's
just one component of yourrelationship and so many
different things come in to makeit successful or not successful

(08:07):
.
So it's same thing with E&M.
I did consult with a friend ofmine who is in an E&M
relationship for this episodeand he gave me a lot of feedback
and kind of things to talkabout me, a lot of feedback and

(08:29):
kind of things to talk about.
So I'd want to dive into thatstuff too.
But I guess just to real quickaddress her first question,
which is why are women morelikely to catch feelings in
situationships?
I don't know that that'snecessarily true.
I think it's the conventionalwisdom and like true from an
evolutionary perspective.
So not capital T true, but justlike what the evolutionary
perspective would suggest,because women are suggested to

(08:51):
be more interested in commitmentand I think there are sort of
brain anatomy and hormonalreasons why women can tend to
have feelings for men that theysleep with over time.
I think the female orgasm is.
I should have looked into thismore, but I think the female

(09:12):
orgasm, like, releasesparticular hormones that are
connected.
I don't know if it's oxytocinor what.
I don't know why that wouldn'tbe the case for men, but there's
a book on it called the FemaleBrain that might be interesting,
but some of this is dated and Imean a lot of men are more
likely to catch feelings insituations.

(09:34):
So I didn't mean to suggestthat it was always going to be
the woman who would be most atrisk of like finding commitment.

Yeah, it's also now.
What do?
What feelings do do we mean atthis point?
Because, especially when we'reblurring a bunch of different
conventions, um, I guesscatching feelings in.
When I first heard that Ithought, oh, meaning I want more
, I want a more of a commitmentfrom that person, and that just
makes sense biologically becauseit's so much more of an

(10:05):
investment on our bodies to havea baby, right, like as much, as
as much as I've, you know,really appreciate modern society
for what we can do.
It's still like if I getpregnant, I am going to really
need that commitment from thatpartner, whereas the other
partner can just male partner,can just impregnate many women,

(10:30):
elon Musk, for example.
So it makes sense that if we'recommitting ourselves sexually,
then there are hormonal and andphysiological responses of like
I want to make sure that thisguy stays around and protects me
and takes care of the baby thatwe're having.
So I mean that's just like,really pure.
But like catching feelings.
I mean I've definitely been insituations where, you know,
situationships or sexualromantic relationships where the

(10:52):
guy's more into me, Right, butthat could mean like he just
wants to have more sex with meand that kind of commitment
versus like wanting therelationship, so I guess it's
like what?
What do you mean by catchingfeelings in these situations?

Right, I mean I, I predict the research
would show that women are lessinterested in, uh, going to bars
every night and finding peopleto have one night stands with.
Um, I think people try to makearguments that sex is, like,
just as desirable to women andwanted by women as men, and I

(11:29):
can see arguments for that.
But at the same time, womendon't seem to make decisions
with sex as the first priorityin the same way that men do.
Um, they don't seem to chooserelationships purely on the
basis of sex in the same way, um, yeah, I just, I just see men
centering sex in their decisionmaking processes a lot more than

(11:52):
women, um, and going after it alot more than women, but in
part, that's, women don't haveto go after it I think we're
just in this really weird phaseof society where social
connection and relationships arerapidly changing to like
breakneck speed, to the pointwhere we don't even like
constructs about sexuality andgender.

You know, like it's just moving too fast
for us to really understand.
But it's just interesting thatall of this challenges monogamy
and its use in our society.
Right, like, do we really needit?
I mean, I think traditionallyit's, it's.
It has a lot of religious roots, right, and you know you're
married to God and like what you, what you're allowed to do

(12:37):
sexually with your partnerversus other people, a lot of
other you know spiritualpractices will say, like, how
much can other men or otherpartners like see your skin or
hair or even touch you?
Right, there's a lot of likethese social rules around what
that marriage is for and whatyou can do with sex, and sex is

(12:57):
a way to have a family, so onlydo that with the person you're
going to have a family with.
But now we're like, hey, I havea sexual side and a sexual part
of me that it wants to explore.
Just, as much as I want toexplore like different kinds of
friendships, like what is itlike to have sex with women and

(13:19):
men, or people with differentkinds of kinks, or things like
that.
So it is unreasonable tobelieve that your one partner
can fulfill all of that.
So I think before, when it wasjust so taboo that anything is
cheating, anything else would becheating.
Now it's like okay, let's admitthat more people do this or are

(13:41):
curious about it than we werewilling to admit before, and
let's actually put differentlabels to kind of signal to
everyone else what we're lookingfor and what we are open to.

I think the historical perspective is
interesting here because it hasalways been assumed and we were
kind of giving the historicalperspective of, like, you know,
women need commitment from menbecause it's so much more of an
investment on the woman's part,and so we need monogamy.
And so, you know, marriage ormonogamy is like an institution

(14:15):
that allows children to beraised to an ideal standard
because they have the investmentof both parents, and without
that, women would be screwed andmen would just be spreading
their seed everywhere.
But there's another perspectivethat I'm not sure has been
upheld, but, um, a book and I'mblanking on the name of it, um,

(14:40):
that was written, I believe, bylike sociologists or, um, not
biologists though basicallyargued that back when human
beings were nomadic, the idealway to raise children wasn't
necessarily in monogamous diets,because you're constantly
moving and you don't have anyproperty, and so it's actually

(15:00):
more beneficial to have like tohelp the community raise the
children, and in that sensepaternity doesn't matter as much
.
You know you could, so youcould be how you could have sex
with, like multiple differentpartners.
You have multiple babies, andthen the community raises them,
and then that's fine.
And then the argument wasbasically the monogamy arose
from farming, where suddenlythese communities became, uh,

(15:28):
they didn't move.
Why am I not able to find wordstoday?
What?
Stationary, stationary, sure,um, and then property became a
thing.
So you know, when they startedfarming, it's like, okay, I need
this piece of land for myself,because these are my resources,
I'm tending to them, and I thensee a woman as a necessary piece

(15:53):
of property because I don't, Ican't, we're not moving around
altogether Like we're sitting inone place.
Sitting in one place, we're notsharing to the same degree
anything, any of our resources.

(16:13):
And paternity is suddenlyimportant because without this
kind of like, the communityraises the children.
Your resources are veryimportant to you, they're yours
and you want them to go to yourown genes Interesting.
And so suddenly it became veryimportant to say no, that woman
is my woman.
She is not allowed to have sexwith any other men because I
don't.
Only she knows her maternityfor sure, I don't know.

(16:35):
So now I must protect her.
So these people would arguethat monogamy is actually an
institution that more or lessoppresses women and is used for
paternity and ownership andbasically also puts most of the

(16:55):
work on women, on a singularwoman to raise the children.
Now again, I don't know howmuch evidence, but there was a
lot of pushback to this book.
One of the arguments is alsothat we tend to align ourselves
with a chimpanzee and say that'sour closest living relative,
but actually we're equallyrelated to the bonobo, which is

(17:17):
extraordinarily ENM.

They're wild, they have a great time.
Lots of orgies.

So I don't know right.
Like I think, though, one thingone point my friend made is
people see ENM as this crazyidea that's just doomed to fail.
But 50% of marriages are doomedto fail, so we're already not
working with very good numbershere.

Yeah, I mean it just shows how much there is
such a mainstream, that's just astandard that's floating around
in our collective conscious,where it's like, okay, what I'm
looking for in life and what thesign of success and the thing
that will work and they're allgoing for, is that find that
partner, marry them, have thathuge wedding, have two kids,

(18:11):
have a job, balance it all, blah, blah, blah.
Right there's, there's stillsuch a really very specific way
that we look at partnerships andmarriage and I'm thinking about
it.
It's like if, when I go to HongKong for my Chinese family, I
mean there is that expectationtoo, but there is a lot more of

(18:34):
this group raising children andthen like cheating, for example,
is way more accepted.
Sadly, men are like it's no bigdeal if they have mistresses on
the side.
It's almost kind of expectedthat they do.

Only for men, though.

Huh.
Only for men, though, kind of Idon't know, maybe now with
modern era I have no idea what'sgoing on now over there, but it
was like not a big deal thatmen could have mistresses, and
as long as they don't embarrassthe family, family like as long
as it's not like open um, and aslong as the man stays like

(19:14):
loyal to the family in terms oflike contributing what he does
and providing.
And even I've even heard somepeople over there say like
actually it's kind of nice,because when you have kids and
you're exhausted you don don'twant to have sex Like he doesn't
get upset, he's, he goes andsatisfied that I need somewhere
else.
So the idea of like family isslightly separated from who you

(19:37):
can have sex with which isreally interesting.

Well, and that also conforms to the
paternity hypothesis where, youknow, both needs are being the
woman is getting the investmentof the man and then the man is
getting his paternity mat.
The woman's not going outcheating, it's just him that's
allowed to, you know.

Uh, go out and kind of smell other flowers
and the only thing that makesmakes that seem palatable.
If, like, let's say, I putmyself in in that culture, I
would be're.
If, if I'm ever thinking aboutthe risks with, you know,
opening up a relationship, myfear is if I'm going to lose the

(20:15):
things that I have right.
Like if I, if I open up mymarriage, what if Alex goes and,
like, sleeps with someone else?
Okay, but what if he falls inlove and leaves me Right and in
another?
In in a culture where thecheating is okay but you still
have that property as long as,like the I had to say it the
quote bastards don't get theproperty right.

(20:37):
It's like as long as the familygets the inheritance and having
the mistresses doesn't risk theproperty transfer to the kids,
that would make it okay, okay,and so it's interesting, yeah
it's interesting because thatalso is more about property,
whereas I think the americanattitude is more about love.

What if he falls in love somewhere else?
So even if he came back andsaid I'll stay here and like our
, you know, jackson will get allof our resources, everything
you'd still be bummed like butwhat if you, what if you love
the other person?
And and then also we have moreof an obsession with equality
here and most people probablywouldn't be cool with like

(21:16):
husband's allowed to cheat, butwife isn't Right.

Yeah, I mean we have crazy expectations over
here for what our partner shouldbe.
It should be our best friend,it should be our sole sex
partner.
It should be our best friend,it should be our sole sex
partner, it should be our mainsource of affection.
All the different things thatyou were talking about before
the triangular theory of love,what was it?
The passion, the intimacy andtrust and commitment.
Yeah, are the three.

(21:40):
One person should give me allof that, and opening it up would
risk losing that person.

Well, I mean mean not only that but, as
esther perel would say, likethey also have to be the
funniest person I've ever met,the best looking person, you
know, the, the mysterious personwho I have total desire for,
and also the person that this is, again to the triangular theory
like also the person that Itrust and in and um, we can feel
safe with um, the smartest, therichest, you the richest, you

(22:08):
know, the, whatever.
We're always like looking forthis perfect person, and I think
what E&M does is sidestep thata little bit and say I w it's
funny.
When I would go to sex parties,I would see people hook up with
other people who I deem to belike for there to be a big
attraction uh, difference Delta.

(22:30):
I was like this is interesting.
But when you're not looking forthe one, you can appreciate
people for all sorts ofdifferent reasons.
You know, like you could say,okay, maybe this isn't my usual
type, but who cares, I'm not outhere just looking for one
representative of my usual type.
I can go outside my type, I canfind this person attractive for
other reasons and just have allof these experiences with all

(22:53):
sorts of different people, causethere's just no pressure for
them to be perfect.

If you could open up your relationship, would
you?
And why?
I guess this is.
This is a question of like whatdoes, what do you hope and
expect your main partner, theyou know primary partner, to
give you, and what are youallowed to look for in other
relationships?
So, yeah, what would that be ifyou can be like, okay, we have

(23:20):
this and then I go go outsidefor that?

well.
So first of all I would notopen it, but there's there was a
time when that answer would bedifferent.
Not really with Jason, I'vesaid.
You know, I think what I wouldlike is for in 10 years to have
a state of the union address andwe kind of figure out, like
where is our sex life and howmuch trust do we have?
And actually would it bebeneficial for us to go

(23:45):
pollinate elsewhere and kind ofbring in some of that like
excitement and fire that ourlistener was talking about?
He's not open to that.
So, whatever, I personally havebecome a lot less romantic in
the past five years.
Yeah, kibbe's looking at mequizzically.

That's true, but go on.

It's true in a particular way.
So I think the way I've becomemore romantic is that I'm
actually willing to acceptanother person and love them for
who they are and appreciaterelationships more.
So you're like, yeah, duh, okay, that sounds very romantic, but
what I mean when I become lessromantic is that I've become
less like Rilke or theImpressionists or like the kind
of.
I've become less obsessed withlove, less obsessed with, like

(24:28):
love and beauty and lyricism,more infatuation more of the
romantic Right and a differentyeah.
But when I was obsessed with,when I was more romantic, I
think polyamory was moreappealing to me because I wanted
to test out so many differentkinds of loves.
I wanted to experienceeverything.
I was kinds of loves, I wantedto experience everything.

(24:50):
I was more invested in theinfatuation element and I knew
that infatuation would sort offade over time and so E&M was a
way to resuscitate that andthat's just less of an interest
for me now, but I understand,for other people it remains an
interest and that's fine.

(25:16):
And you know, I do think thatcertain things are kind of
impossible in just a monogamousrelationship.
Like, I think it's kind ofimpossible for you to feel the
same dopamine hit five years, 10years into a monogamous
relationship than you do in, youknow, an E&M setup where you
can.
You can go and meet new peopleand have that excitement and if
that's really valuable to youand genuinely no judgment
because it is a fast, it's anamazing feeling If that's really

(25:40):
valuable, then maybe that'sgreat.
That's, I think, kind of aromantic side of it.
But I also just think thatthere are plenty of other
reasons why people do E&M andmany people who are in them
would roll their eyes at thatpart of my explanation, but for
me that's why I initially had aninterest in it was because I
wanted to experience all sortsof different people.

(26:02):
I wanted that dopamine hit.
I was romantic, I wanted love,love.

Love was romantic, I wanted love love,
love and with a bunch ofdifferent people.
So if you could now, if youcould open it up to get to have,
um, that kind of that dopaminehit of crush, crushes and dates
and all that stuff, would you,would you do it?

No, I'm just not interested in that
anymore and I think the risks ofit and the costs of it are just
too high considering my lowinterest in all of that.
The risk being yeah, I wish Ihad said in the friends with
benefits episode, I'm going tosay it here instead is that what
I find difficult is that if youhave a friend with benefits,
you already have a friendship.
Friendship confers certainbenefits already.
Like if I go to jail, I couldcall Kibbe to pick me up and

(27:07):
maybe she would come right.
Like Kibbe, you know, gets medinner sometimes.
Kibbe, like calls it gives meemotional support when I need it
.
And the problem is that when youadd sex but not commitment and
I don't actually mean sexualcommitment, I mean like

(27:28):
commitment in some other fashionthere is a risk that you asking
for those other benefits comesacross as you wanting more from
the relationship.
Give us an example.
What is that?
If I'm having sex with a guyfriend and I want him to take me

(27:48):
to dinner, that might seem likeI want him to be my boyfriend.
Or if I want him to pick me upfrom the airport, or if I don't
want him to call some other hoewhile he's in bed with me, then
that might seem like, oh, shedoesn't, she's not actually
comfortable with this casualsetup, she wants more, when in
reality I want those thingsbecause you're my friend and

(28:13):
it's really, really hard to knowwhere the lines are of those
kinds of prioritizations andcommitment.
What I like about E&M is that itdoes not assume that sex is the

(28:37):
cornerstone of the commitment.
I've heard a lot of people saywell, if you're going to fuck
other people, then what's thepoint of a relationship?
That's what a relationship is,and I'm like, really Is it?
Because when I think about myrelationship, sex is an
ingredient, but it's not themain ingredient.
And I could have sex with otherpeople, but I would still fully
believe that I'm in a committedrelationship Because I know

(29:00):
that he's the first person I'dcall if I needed something, and
vice versa.
I know that I have someone tocome home to.
I know I have somebody that I'mdesigning and building a life
with that is going to outlast.
You know the vicissitudes ofthe day to day and that, to me,
is what commitment is, and I'vealways appreciated that E&M has
put the focus on those things orsaid okay, what does commitment

(29:23):
mean to us Instead of making anassumption that sexual
exclusivity is the definition ofa commitment.

Yeah, absolutely yeah.
The commitment.
We have just the shorthand andwe thought we knew what that
meant.
Commitment if I just say, oh,why isn't he committing to me,
you might think why isn't thatperson exclusive?
with me at this point Right, butit's almost just like
commitment now.
Is that person committed tomeeting the expectations that

(29:53):
you have for them, um, or wantto have for them, um?
Yeah, and it's.
It's just interesting as, asyou were talking about, I was
thinking that it is so weirdthat all of my other
relationships, my romanticrelationships, started with sex
or hooking up.
Usually they were friends or,like you know, acquaintances,

(30:16):
and then we would primarilystart the intimacy with the sex
and then it would develop intookay, we're not having sex with
anyone else.
Therefore, we are now together.
And then that would lead toother expectations of, well, now
you're my emotional support Now, like if I'm having a bad day

(30:36):
and I call you and the persongoes, why are you calling me?
You know, that would be weirdbecause my expectation is like
now we're in a committedrelationship.
That means that we could sharethose kinds of like we're
emotional support, right.
So it kind of like layered on abunch of commitment with Alex,
my current husband is it's.
We had 18 years of friendshipfirst and had all sorts of

(30:59):
commitment, except for the sex.
The sex was the last thing weadded to our relationship and
it's just, it's just so bizarrebecause, yeah, when I think
about it, I'm like sex isprobably like the last thing
that makes us us.
What makes the, what makes himand I, special to me, is that I

(31:20):
know that I can trust him in allthese different ways.
I trust him to be there when Iwas sick, or my emotional
support when, um, to be like agood co-parent, to build a life
together, right, and the sexualmonogamy was not the first set
of commitments that we madetogether.
It was in this iteration butlike not in the course of our

(31:42):
relationship.
So, huh, I don't know.
This is just making me allthink about.
Like what is commitment andwhat is a relationship?
So like for you?
You say, like the, the sex, themonogamy for sex is not the
most important, it's not thecore part.
For you, what would you see?

if I had a crystal ball and it said, hey,
you and jason are going to openyour marriage sexually, but he
will never fall in love withanother person and he will never
prioritize another person overyou and vice versa, would you
allow it?
I'd still probably not be thatinterested but I'd be like maybe

(32:21):
.
Like depends on what thebenefits are, you know.
If it, if it leads to asteamier sex life for both of us
, then like cool.
If it leads to a steamier sexlife for both of us, then like
cool.
If it leads for, you know, tome meeting new people that I
find really interesting and cooland like get to go on dates
with them, then maybe it's worthit.
But yeah, I mean, for me it's Ihave a point person.
I have a person that I go towhen I, you know, when I need

(32:43):
him.
I have the person that is just,that's just there and loves me
and thinks of me and is therefor me, and I have a person with
whom to share a future and it'sthat kind of future orientation
building that really makes upthe commitment for me.

What if okay?
So what we're talking about isthe risk for you is that he
would fall in love with somebodyelse.
That's the risk, right?
What if he is like, hey, let'sopen up the relationship, I
might fall in love with someoneelse.
However no matter what, you andI are making this life together.

(33:27):
We're going to have kids, we'regoing to have a family, we're
going to Um, I might know.
Okay, you're shaking your head.
I mean, I know, I know this isimpossible.
This is more of a thoughtexperiment of like what if you
get the commitment that thething that you're, that makes
the core of your relationship,won't go away.
But then that means that itopens up the parameters on the
sexual side, or the even thelove, emotional love side.

Yeah, I mean and some people would be
totally cool with that I have anabsence of jealousy, but I
would not say that I havecompersion, which is you know
when you basically are happy foryour partner having like other
sexual experiences or other loveexperiences and you're like you
know what makes you happy isknowing that that person is
really enjoying themselves andreally connecting deeply, like
you know what makes you happy isknowing that that person is
really enjoying themselves andreally connecting deeply and,
you know, fulfilling somethingin themselves.
I, I'm not that good of aperson and so, jason, falling in

(34:15):
love with somebody else is justnot in my interests in any way,
um, and would make me feel badabout about myself.

Why, um, why, if he's like I, I still love
respect.
You want to have kids with you,want to build this family with
you.
And, oh, my mistress, or my, my, the other, my other girlfriend
, I love her so much like right.

I mean I can make a rational argument.

You were the bachelor you were like
technically, on this, somehowour society was like cool, we're
allowing, in the world of theBachelor Nation, for this man to
have 30, quote girlfriends,right?
So you all were like thegirlfriends.

I didn't develop feelings for him until I
knew I was going to leave.

Then you became his girlfriend, along
with all others.
So what?

And then I left.
Okay, you also know it'stemporary, you know?
Yeah, right, I mean, look,there have been times actually
where I could conceivably beinterested in an E&M
relationship if I were the otherwoman.
I just wouldn't want to be theprimary partner in these setups.

(35:27):
Why?
What is that?
Because I I do think I'm stillromantic enough to just want one
person to be mine and for andlike for me to be their one
person, sorry for love andcommitment.
Like I can make a rationalargument for why it would be a
beautiful thing for them to loveother people and for me to love
other people.
Like I think it's.

(35:47):
I think it's lovely when otherpeople do it.
Um, I'm, I'm very judgmental offriends with benefits, but I'm
not very judgmental about E&M,like I think I think when it
works, it's a beautiful thing.
It's just not something I wantto do personally.
I mean, would you be cool withAlex falling in love with
someone?

What is the thing that you're risking?
Let's say my thought experiment, where he's having sex with
someone else, he's in love withsomeone else, but you get the
commitment that you were justsaying like and he still loves
me right in this thoughtexperiment.
Yeah, my ego, I think is itthat you're not special?
You're not like the mostspecial?
Okay, right, what is so what?
What is that?
What if he's like I love youand I love you equally?

(36:26):
yeah, that's terrible so it'sbeing special.
It's being loved in it as theonly one that yeah, that's
terrible.
So it's being special.
It's being loved as the onlyone that gets that special heart
.
What if he's like I'm in lovewith your intellect?
This other girl I'm in lovewith her snowboarding skills.
I don't know how would that?

That would be slightly more acceptable to
me, since I don't valuesnowboarding skills.
That's what I'm saying.
I would still.
I just don't think there's any.
Yeah, my ego would just beburnt.

Okay, so, jason, you're not going to get
an harem.

I don't know on the table.
You're not going to get thatI'm a much greater risk of
wanting a harem than he is.
He's very much like.
No, yeah, very, would you beokay with?

Alex loving him.
This is the question.
This is, I mean, I think thatthis topic is opening up the
opening up the question of what.
What does, what does make up arelationship?
What is what makes up yourprimary relationship If you're
in an open relationship?
What makes it open versus, justlike you know, you're having

(37:30):
multiple relationships?
What can we expect, what kindof commitment can we expect from
a romantic partner?
And I, yeah, I think there'sthere's just this gut piece of
not feeling special.
Right, there's of of preferringanother woman.
Right, there's of of preferringanother woman.

(37:54):
And the interesting thing forme and alex is like I spent most
of our relationship like beinghis wing woman and list and
watching and listening to all ofhis like romantic and sexual
exploits, which there were manyum on youtube now.
But, um, and there was somethingfun in that for me because I

(38:15):
got to see first of all, I gotto see a different side of him
than I did when he was with me.
Um, he was more he.
He he's quite shy in many waysbut he also is very good
socially and he's he's very like, very empathetic and in tune
and can like when he can turnthings on and like go for
someone he really can, he'sdominant, yeah, and so like it

(38:37):
was fun to watch him do that andthen discover about that person
Right, and I just, you know, asa psychologist, we love
learning about, like theintimate parts of relationships
and people.
So it was kind of like a windowinto that.
So actually us getting togethermade me lose like this really
awesome window I had and Ireally miss it to the point

(38:59):
where I've said to him jokinglyand not jokingly like maybe we
should open up the relationshipso you could date again, so I
can get that satisfaction.
Oh well, because I always feltlike I had the special position
with him, like I was special ina different way, like I don't
think anyone could replace me inhis life right as a friend or

(39:21):
whatever Cause.
You know, we just had thisreally special friendship and
then, even if you were to sleepwith someone else, I don't think
he's at risk of going away inthe sense of replacing me or
building a family with somebodyelse, and that's really the key
thing.
I think that when we talk aboutopen relationships and what's

(39:42):
the risk, it's like how do weprotect the?
What is that one thing that wewant from that partner?
That's our primary partner andhow do we protect that?
If we're opening it up to themsleeping with other people, then
is that opening up the riskthat they're going to fall in
love and find another womanspecial?

yeah, I mean, that's all I it's so weird
that I've become like the supermonogamous one because when I
was with Paul I was all aboutPaul.
I mean that I've become likethe super monogamous one Because
when I was with Paul I was allabout Paul.
I mean I had ulterior motivesthere, which is that I wasn't
happy in my relationship, but Ido get what you mean.
It is somewhat intriguing forme to think about Jason hitting
on another girl and I've alwaysthought it would be kind of hot

(40:25):
to like watch him with anothergirl.
I don't think it's hot enoughto really make it worth it.
But I could also see how, inmany years when we do have more
of a friendship, like right now,I'm still seeing him hit on me
and so and maybe Alex is stillhitting on you, I don't know but

(40:46):
you two just have such adifferent relationship history
that they're just apples andoranges.
Um, right now I just think I'mso relieved to be in a
relationship where I don't wantto open it up, Like I don't want
to meet other people, that I'mjust fully invested here.
But I've never been the like.

(41:07):
I've never been the person whois possessive or who I don't
know.
I joke with him all the timewhen he's like how would you
feel if I, just, like, got ablowjob from someone else?
I'd be like, well, I mean, aslong as you film it and send it
to me, you know, whatever Likethen, how do we?

how are we distilling?
How do we?
How are we distilling, like,let's say, our our fans question
of, like, um, we wanted to openup the relationship to
experience more sex, but it's,but she's not experiencing the
same level of um, excitement orjoy from sex without the,
without the feelings.
So what do you do in thatscenario?

(41:46):
How do you so?
For example, like for our ourfan who wrote in and said I want
to open up the relationship sothat I can experience the
pleasure of having sex withmultiple people.
Now, in order to do that andreally enjoy it, feelings should
be involved, right, like, it'sjust way more fun to have sex

(42:08):
with someone you care about andtrust and are attracted to right
, for some people.
But then, how do you preventthe risks of losing whatever
makes the commitment of theprimary relationship happen,
right, like, how do you preventyourself from falling in love
with someone?

I don't know, and is there?

is that even an option Is?

that even when you do that?

Are you just inherently causing problems by
opening up the relationship andincreasing the risk that someone
else falls in love with someoneelse?

I mean I think you increase the risk, but
I think there are certainthings you can do.
I mean, what I love about E&Mis that you don't accept a
template of a relationship andassume this is what makes our
relationship a relationship andthese are the rules you get to
make your own.
So it's a conversation with herhusband about look, here's my
dilemma, what do we want to doabout this?
I had one couple who you know.

(43:00):
I think part of this goes backto, like, what are feelings,
right?
So she's talking about agreater trust and intimacy,
which is riskier because thatgrows over time and it kind of
entails multiple meetings.
I had another.
I had a couple who they had arule that, like, once that stuff

(43:23):
starts, you're out, but thatdoesn't mean there were no
feelings, because what attractedthem to the other people in the
first place was chemistry.
So, yeah, it's more fun to havesex with people that you have
feelings for, but what feelingsare we talking about?
Like, for me, it would probablyonly be fun to have sex with

(43:43):
people I had chemistry with butdidn't really have the other
stuff, because I knew itwouldn't be able to grow
anywhere without threatening myrelationship and it wouldn't
have the just like dopamine,chemistry, you know cocktail
that I'm after.
So I mean, I think you have todefine, like, what are we really
looking for in these otherrelationships?
Are we looking for dopamine,you know?

(44:04):
Are we looking for a chemistrycocktail?
Are we looking for theopportunity to really get to
know other people and havestrong emotional connections
with other people?
And that's totally legitimateto want that too, because there
is a great excitement in reallygetting to intimately know
multiple other people.

I think also yourself.
I feel like I'm so glad I gotto experiment sexually and
romantically when I was younger,because then I got to
experience different sex styles,like people liking slow or
rough or, you know, on furniture.
You know different things and Igot to be different people with

(44:42):
them and to see what I liked.
So I and I, I feel, yeah, I feellike, unless you have that, if
you're in a monogamousrelationship, like all your life
, since you were young, I'm like, oh man, that's so sad you miss
out on the exploration Like,hopefully that one partner you

(45:04):
get to do that with isinherently bad, but I, I do see
that it's like, how do we thenprotect um from the risks which
is like losing, like falling inlove with someone else, breaking
up the relationship, and I feellike that's a tricky thing,
because I mean that's trickywhether you're an open or closed
relationship.
Right, like, if you are afraidthat your partner will fall in

(45:28):
love with someone else, I meanyou don't have to have sex for
that.
They can fall in love withtheir coworker, like whatever
you know.
That could just happen, right,probably is more likely they're
sleeping with that coworker,maybe because of all the
oxytocin.
Yeah, I have a friend here inNew York who opened their

(45:49):
marriage.
This is a bad story.
This is how it goes wrong.
Opened their marriage.
They had no intention of beingpolyamorous.
They were like let's just sleepwith other people and stay
together and still have a familyand still stay married, right.
So they wanted more of atraditional like we are

(46:09):
together'm making a family, butwe can open up and have sex.
So I think they had some rulesaround it.
Like they couldn't have sexwith people that they knew in
common or that were like indaily life or things like that,
and they couldn't have sex incertain places, like it couldn't
be in one of their homes or itcouldn't be.

(46:33):
Um, I think there was evenrules around the types of
relation of sex they could have.
like they couldn't have like sexwithout protection or like
levels of like what they can dowith that other person and the

(46:54):
wife broke those rules and hadsex with someone that they knew
mutually and had sex withoutprotection.
And I forgot if it was in oneof their homes, but it was, it
did they definitely broke a lotof the rules?
Oops, if it was in one of theirhomes, but it was, it did they
definitely broke a lot of therules.

(47:14):
Oopsie, right, and then, butshe was like, okay, our main
thing was to be honest with eachother.
So she told her partner andsaid her husband and said this
is what, this is what I did.
We're not going to like thiswas a one-time thing, this was
within the bounds of our openrelationship.
I did I admit that it issomeone that we know blah, blah,
blah.
And the husband was furiousLike you cheated on me, you

(47:34):
broke our marriage and I thinkit took them a long time to
repair from it.
I think they repaired.
I don't know if there's likeundercurrents of like upsetness
with this or still pain, butyeah, I feel like this is an
example Everyone listening mightbe like oh yeah, I feel like
that.
This is an example Everyonemight listen might be like oh
yeah, of course, but like thisis an example of if you're
opening a relationship, whatyou're doing is you have to make

(47:57):
a custom set of rules for youand your relationship.
You can't rely on like what'syou know, like you know common
knowledge or traditional.
You have to be like okay, it'sokay to have sex, sex with
someone, but it cannot be thisgroup of people, right.
So you have to get reallyspecific and have your own like
agreement somewhere, and thenbreaking it would mean breaking

(48:20):
that particular relationship andso or the like, the expectation
of that relationship.
So I mean it just seems toughbecause there's so many other
rules to pay attention to rightLike having no sex with someone
else is a lot easier than beinglike okay, I'm going to have sex
with these people in these ways, but not in other ways, Right?

So yeah, Um , I have many thoughts.
So the first is when you said,is there any way to do this and
minimize the risk?
I think, yes, I don't think youcan eliminate the risk.
I think the way to minimize therisk is to be super duper
honest with yourself about whyyou're doing this and then give
that your partner that honestyas well.

(48:59):
So, um, and when you're rightabout, like you, you know, close
relation, even in a monogamousrelationship, there are still
threats.
So, for instance, I there are,like some men from my past that
I am attracted to or like kindof I've had like long-term
crushes on and what I, when Ifirst got together with Jason
and started thinking about likeokay, what, you know, what if

(49:21):
these people interacted with me,the thing that became clear
very quickly is I can havecrushes on people for all sorts
of different reasons, but itdoesn't mean that they make good
partners.
And what makes Jason unique tome is that we have a really good
partnership.
And so, you know, exploringother relationships could be
cool, but ultimately, what Ireally value is having a really

(49:42):
good partnership.
So I think, like in my case, ifI were, if we were to have an
open relationship, like maybe Iwould go dally with those people
.
But keep in mind, you know,making that anything more than a
dalliance doesn't serve mygoals of having a really good
partnership.
Now, of course, it could turnout that they seem like they're

(50:02):
really good partners, but youdon't really know that very
easily.
So I mean, I think you couldsay, like, okay, why are we
really doing it?
Are we doing this because wewant chemistry, Like we want to
explore dopamine?
Okay, If we're going to do that, what's the safest way and most
intentional way we can do thatwithout threatening the
relationship.
And it sounds like your friendsattempted to do that, but I

(50:23):
don't know, like from your storyI can't tell why they decided
to open up the marriage, whatexactly they were looking for,
and I wonder if there was a, ifthere was a breakdown there, if
they weren't really really clearin their heads why they're
doing this.
Because if she was able tobreak a rule I don't know how
easily she broke it, but it itjust kind of suggests that she

(50:44):
went for something that was sortof outside of the of the bounds
of what she ostensibly wanted.
The second part, though, is thatwhen you make a custom set of
rules and you do something thatis not really applauded by
society and there's not a wholelifetime of your own
conditioning around it.
There may need to be someflexibility and forgiveness

(51:06):
around it, because it is reallyeasy to make mistakes, and so do
you want a mistake to break upyour relationship.
It sounds like these two peoplerepaired and so it just took
some like a lot of repair work.
But you have to kind of decide,like, if you don't use a condom
once, like how detrimental isthat?

(51:26):
On the one hand, it's really,really important that we use
condoms Like it's really reallyimportant, but on the other hand
, like it is really easy to slipup if you're going to be, if
you're going to be doing thethings that kind of often come
along with dating again, likedrinking, bar hopping, like
meeting new people with theirown different standards and

(51:48):
rules, and it's just there areso many opportunities for things
to go wrong, which is why IANArequires so much communication.
And I think that that is adouble-edged sword, Because, on
the one hand, as my friendpointed out, he's like you know,

(52:12):
if any of your listeners havethe opportunity to meet E&M
couples, they might learn a lotBecause they communicate so

(52:43):
effectively, soabundantlyogamous couples would
try to keep more under wraps.
On the other hand, do youreally want to talk about your
relationship that much?

Like what Give us more tips on what your
friend said makes it work?
Like what does a communicationin a relationship look like
versus traditional ones's say?

I mean, like let's say that, um, you're
you're doing enm in part becauseof a kink.
You probably have to be very,very honest with your partner
about that kink and why it's soimportant to you and why you
can't do it with them.
And maybe it's because thepartner isn't willing to um, and
you know, maybe it's likebecause you want that chemistry

(53:23):
cocktail.
You have to be really honestabout, like the extent to which
you can get that in your, inyour current relationship.
I think a lot of monogamistspretend like that's not a thing
and pretend like theirrelationship is perfect and
gives them absolutely everythingthey want and non-monogamous.
Can't they have to admit like Idon't get every, I don't get

(53:48):
all my needs met in thisrelationship.
Any other person has to sitwith that.
Yeah right, it's a bit of anego ding and and they have to
talk about, like what needs theycan possibly meet and what
needs can't they mean and meet,and why they can get it with
other people.
And then that you know theyhave to be constantly updating,
like what's going on in yourother relationships.
How serious is this getting?
Or Are any threats emerging?
Like how are your feelings?
Do we need to monitor anythingLike is this partner dragging
you away from me?

(54:09):
Is this my jealousy emerging?
I mean, there's just like somany conversation topics that
just have to be talked through,mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's really cool.
I guess the idea is like yeah,you're doing your own custom
relationship, so you're notrelying on any assumptions,
right Like if?
If Alex says oh.
I'm going out to dinner with afriend she's a girl and she's
really pretty, you know I'mgoing to.
I'm probably not going to talka lot about it because I'm just
kind of like, okay, there's anassumption there that he's not

(54:41):
going to sleep with her orwhatever.
But in order to have all thatlevel of conversation, like what
do you want from this dinner?
Like what are the things thatI'm worried about?
And I wonder too, if you know,we were talking last time in
situationships about thenon-reciprocal nature, like what

(55:02):
makes a situation versusfriends with benefits?
It's like how does everyonefeel about what they're doing?
If you there, I've heard someopen relationships happening
because one person wants tosleep with other, with other
people, and the other one islike I have to give them that in
order to keep them in a reallylike sad way or one.

(55:24):
Let's just say, one partnerreally wants to open it and the
other one is like going alongwith it, and it's like maybe
different levels of open to that, but they're, if they had a
choice they wouldn't open it.
Right, this is just somethingthat would make that person
happy.
Um, that's, I don't know ifthat's a recipe for disaster,
but that's really tricky,because then I, if that's a
recipe for disaster, but that'sreally tricky because then I
think it's a recipe for disaster, yeah, I mean, they're going to

(55:46):
have different motivations foropening it.
Right, the person who's likegiving into it, it's going to.
I would just be like, okay, nowI have to find someone to sleep
with, just so I don't get superjealous and I'm not that, you
know, and I get into this and Idon't really want to.
But if I don't sleep with thatanybody, then they are sleeping

(56:06):
around like not fair.
So that imbalance I'm sure issuper risky.

My friend's number one point that he made
was that a lot of people judgeE&M because the experiences
they've had with people theyknow in it is that it fails.
But it's because they're, it'sbecause the people they knew did
it as a last resort for a dyingrelationship, and that that is
almost never going to workbecause it's just pouring

(56:33):
gasoline on a bad, on arelationship that's failing, and
that this, this, is somethingthat needs to be done in strong
relationships, or between twopeople who have probably, like,
who at least have definiteinterest in it, or or like,
demonstrated experience with it,because it's just, it's a lot
of work and it's it takes a lotof finesse, and if you're, if

(56:56):
you've, if you've got arelationship that's failing, you
probably don't have two peoplewho are communicating really
well.
So how are you going tointroduce something that entails
a shitload of communication?
It just doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, and so if one personwants it but the other person
doesn't, we're already startingin a really bizarre place.
Yeah, yeah, I mean we haven'teven talked about like polyamory

(57:20):
, which is like having multiplerelationships at the same time.

I think we should do that in the other
episode.
That's something that's gotten alot more mainstream and it's
super interesting and it's, youknow, all of this is like
putting names on things thathave already happened, right,
that now is just like normal,right, it's like we've had

(57:43):
multiple different kinds ofrelationships, maybe not
sexually, but like, yeah, I goto you for certain things, I go
to Alex for certain things, I goto you for certain things,
right, we go to our differentsupport network for different
types of relationships and typesof emotional support, like
emotional intimacy and, you know, shared activities, whatever.

(58:07):
But now now we have now that'slike more accepted in the
traditional relationship and Ithink that the my questions are
always like well, what is itlike to raise a family like that
, you know?
But I mean, I was raised in ablended family.
Right, are always like well,what is it like to raise a
family like that, you know?
I mean I was raised in ablended family, right, like I'm,
I was raised just as much by mystepmother as my other parents.

(58:31):
So, you know, all this is likemore normal.
We just put names on it.

Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I just I have so manyswirling thoughts, like one is I
think E&M provides theopportunity to have a true soul
bond with your partner becauseyou, you just have to, you just
have to communicate so much, youget to know them so much, you
get to prioritize each other'sneeds in a really new and
different way.
Um, and that's prettyincredible.
And it, and it also and I thinkin polyamory in particular

(58:59):
assumes that your partnerdoesn't own your body, it
doesn't own images of your body,doesn't own what you do with
your body, that there's a senseof autonomy where it's like,
okay, well, you know, we'redoing the things to protect our
union and our partnership, butultimately, like, your body is
your body, your feelings areyour feelings, you know, like,

(59:21):
if what you value is iscontinuing this partnership we
had to talk about what thatmeans and how to do that but but
also there's some understandingthat you're your own, truly
your own, person, and I and Ithink that's especially true in
polyamory, where you can havemultiple relationships so that's
all cool.

(59:41):
On the other hand, like I don'tknow that I would want to talk
about my relationship to thisextent, because it can really
bog you down and imagine thatyou have all these
extracurricular relationshipsbut your primary one is the one
where you have to do all thetalking.
When is there time to have funand relax when you're just
constantly having to be likeokay, so I went on a date with
Sarah last night and you knowlike this is what it meant.
And I went on a date with Sarahlast night and you know like
this is what it meant, and, ohmy God, now I'm feeling jealousy

(01:00:04):
and I'm feeling insecurity.
Now we have to talk throughthat.
It's like Whoa, depending onthe partner, some partners might
be like Ooh, compersion, hellyeah, let me talk about it.
Like, tell me about it.
You know, did you film it?
Let me watch it.
Like this will spice up us, butthat's not it for everyone.
When you're dealing withjealousy and insecurity, and
especially you're talking aboutblended like, about families.

(01:00:25):
Imagine imagine being pregnantand your husband's going out and
fucking some other chick.
Imagine being postpartum.
I cannot.
I cannot imagine dealing withbody image issues and a baby and
, worried about this, my husbandgoing out and screwing some

(01:00:45):
like firm bouncy boobed 25 yearold chick.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:53):
This is interesting because it's really
highlighting for you what thevalue is.
Is like value is for yourrelationship.
Is him looking at you in apreferential way?
Yeah Right, being like you arethe most beautiful value to be
clear yes, the value you havewould be special.
Um, but for for other peoplelike they might want the peace

(01:01:21):
that comes with their husbandsnot being sexually frustrated,
Because if they're like I feellike this I know he's going to
be a good father, he's a goodhusband, but I just don't want
to feel the pressure to have sexall the time.
So go and do your thing andcome back and be the best
husband you can be.
Right For them, that might belike even better than just like

(01:01:42):
fine, have sex with a bouncyyoung girl, whatever.
I don't have time for this shit, right right, yeah, it could
decrease guilt um I think we'retalking ourselves into like
being into open relationships.
I think, like now I'm talkingmyself out of it.
Next episode I will share howit goes.

(01:02:04):
Talking to alex about openingup the relationship do you?

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:07):
do you really and you think you would
do it?
I mean, what are?
Yeah?

I would.
I mean, I've talked to himabout I mean we've always like
we're so new, so it's like we'vewe got together and then we got
pregnant and then we got a baby, and then we had cancer and
then we right with this, a, lot,of, a lot of stuff in our
relationship.
But I've I've talked to himabout, like what would it be
like if, down the line, like, weexplore?
I think that I would want toexplore with him.

(01:02:31):
I don't know how I would feelwith him going off and doing
other things, because I thinkthe my main goal for that would
be to increase my intimacy withhim.
It would be like to see thatside of him and discover that
while we're both engaging in asexual relationship or something
I don't know, I haven't thoughtabout it that clearly I'm
thinking about this out loud aswe speak.
So this will be a good templatefor our conversation with my

(01:02:52):
husband.
So, but I, yeah, I would beopen to it.
I mean, marriage is long, man,like life is long.
I can't believe we have so manyyears left.

I'm like, yeah, I mean, this is why I
really hope we can get a guesthere, and I've asked a friend of
mine, but I imagine she has tothink about it.

Um, polyamorous friends are more shy
to talk.

Yeah Well, because of all the judgment, all
the judgment which sucked,because I I in some ways I
respect them more thanmonogamists, and then it
obviously depends on the people,but I do, I guess.
A final point here is like thecommunity aspect.
I would think so.
The the people that I foundstruggled less with like lived
in New York.
I don't have that great of asample of like people outside of

(01:03:45):
New York, but seeing it happenit's been hard.
And I think some of the reasonsare like, when there's a
community like the one that Iwas adjacent to in New York,
there was a lot of like almostswinging going on.
Where there were, it was likethere were known entities within

(01:04:05):
the community and they wouldall kind of date each other all
the time.
And that solved a couple ofproblems.
One is that they had a bunch ofrole models and examples of
other people doing this.
So it wasn't just the lone E&Mcouple.
It's surrounded by a sea ofmonogamists which would feel

(01:04:26):
very lonely and you'd have tojustify yourself constantly.
So that was one problem.
But I think the other problem iswhat my friend pointed out is
like one thing you have to beprepared for in addition to
communication is the differencesin what you'll be able to pull
in, because women are going tobe able to pull in many, many,
many, many, many, many, many,many, many more dates than men

(01:04:47):
are, especially with like onlinedating going on.
He's like there are tons of menon the dating apps looking for
flings because duh, and so youknow, like his girlfriend can
just go on and, you know, justrifle through all of her choices
and just pick one and know thatthere will be 50 000 others
that she can go for.
But with him it's like a desertand so I would assume for a lot

(01:05:10):
of men they're like oh,relationship, like I met
girlfriend, I can fuck a bunchof other people too nice, it's
like no, you are actually mostlikely putting yourself in a
position where you're watchingyour girlfriend fuck other
people and you have to wait avery long time cool, so actually

(01:05:32):
this is gonna favor us but ifyou're in a community, right,
there are like there are likewomen there who might be willing
to touch your penis.
So you know, you know it's justlike right.
And then there are sex partiesright, where there's like, okay,
you know our community, we haveparties where we can go and

(01:05:54):
like, explore this, explore kink, explore other partners, like,
explore a way to connect withour partner in a different way,
in a kinkier way, in avoyeuristic exhibitionist,
whatever the case, like swinger,whatever the case may be.
So there's just a lot moreinfrastructure there for these
relationships, which isn't tosay that if you're like a New

(01:06:14):
York polyamorous or M person,that you definitely want to be
in like one of these particularcommunities I wouldn't, because
I I hate communities, but for alot of people it works, it works
very well, versus being inmissouri like our, our fan here,
um, I don't know, it would just.
No, maybe there is.
Yeah, I hope, I mean, I hope so, like it sounds like she's
making something work, but Ijust I bet it's a very, very

(01:06:36):
different dynamic I just bet insmaller cities that you know you
just run the risk of there'sjust like a few well, unless
Missouri's not a liberal state.

So there's that, yeah yeah, how do you get,
how do you get into, how youfind these communities asking
for a friend?

um, because what happened was when I was I
don't know how to do it now whenI was.
This all goes back to that guyI told you about in the career
episode, who found me when I was17 and he was 30 and like tried
to groom me.
Yeah, he was, he was Polly, gotit, and so I met people through
him and then I got into OKCupidand OKCupid was a hub for them.

(01:07:17):
And so I just kind of naturallymet people that way and then
that got me into the community.
Then I met my boyfriend and Iwas like going to these parties
and I met, you know, otherpeople that way.
So I was like I was like prettymuch in the know for a period
of time.
It just wasn't for me.
Okay, so I just do.
I want to give some tips from myfriend for how you know this

(01:07:39):
can, for how you know this can,how this can go better and like
basically, pitfalls to avoid.
So one thing he said is that,like, opening up a relationship
can be an amazing way tostrengthen an already strong
relationship, right, socommunication's good, but going
too quickly can alienate yourpartner.
So you want to go really,really slow and check in and

(01:08:00):
take care of each other and ifyou imagine doing this right,
like you're in, you're in thisrelationship it's been
monogamous and you're like, okay, let's try this thing, and then
you go out the next day andfuck a stranger.
It's like that's a lot to takehome to your partner instead of
hey, like I'm flirting on onlinedating.
Like here's my online dating app.
Look at that, what do you think?

(01:08:21):
And then like swiping togetheror kind of checking in about
that, like flirtatiousconversations.
Check in, check in, check in.
Okay, what emotions are comingup?
How do we process this?
Are we still interested?

Um, every step of the way.
Talk about it, yeah.

Yeah, um.
And then he talked about thewomen and men thing, about how
women can find dates much moreeasily, and then he said there's
something called NRE, or newrelationship energy.
That fucks up a lot of peoplein relationships.
So basically this is thedopamine cocktail.
When you connect with somebodynew, sexually or romantically,

(01:08:56):
you can have these really strong, you can have an infatuation.
Basically there's really strongfeelings and that can throw
everything into question whereit's like, oh my God, this
infatuation, I idealize thisperson.
They're amazing.
What if I actually want to bewith this person instead?
I haven't felt this way for mypartner in years.
What does this mean?
And that's a threat, right?

(01:09:17):
So you kind of have to be awarethat that might happen, that's
normal, and that it doesn'tnecessarily mean it doesn't mean
that that's how it wouldcontinue to feel.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Wow, wow, that's.
That's also also really usefulfor people who cheated and then
they go oh, wow, now maybe Ifall in love with them.
And then you hear that they'reyou know, go with that person
and then we're you know, go intoa regular relationship.
That's so interesting, that'sreally interesting.

(01:09:52):
I love those tips.

That was yeah, thank your friend yeah, um
, yes, thank you, friend, thatwas, and he was, like he's one
of the most brilliant peoplelike on this topic in the space,
and so I love hearing um histhoughts and actually I think
like kink could be anotherepisode that we do at some point
too, and how that can influenceall of these dynamics.

(01:10:13):
Um, but for now I hope that wasa decent primer on enm and
different things to think about.
Um, hopefully we'll get you aguest who actually lives this
lifestyle soon.
Maybe that guest is Kibbe insix months after she and Alex
have opened up theirrelationship.

I'll do it for the podcast.

All you guys.
That is a really going in eyeswide open of why you're doing
this.
Very intentional, yeah,communicate with you.

I don't know about our personal life.
All right, yeah, communicatewith you all right.

Well, we hope that you all are still
monogamists and just only loveus and only ever want to listen
to us and just love us so muchand would never like any other
podcast better.
And if that's true, please giveus a five-star rating on apple
podcast and spotify.
It's okay, guys, even if youlisten to, just do it anyway.
We'll know we can trust you.
See you next week.

(01:11:11):
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The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
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