Humiliation: The Spiciest Social Emotion

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Humiliation might be the most painful social emotion we experience, even traumatizing. Yet it's much less talked about compared to its cousin, shame. In this revealing episode, we unpack the distinct characteristics that make humiliation uniquely devastating and potentially dangerous.

When someone in a position of power debases you in public, that's not just intense shame- it's humiliation. You simply experience a profound loss of status and dignity. While someone might humiliate you to "teach you a lesson" or make you change, but it only brings up a powerful urge for revenge.

We explore how this emotional response plays out across various contexts—from relationships where partners use humiliation as a power tactic, parents humiliate their kids as discipline, to political landscapes where people who are humiliated become radicalized. We talk about how public humiliation can devastate someone's life, while contemporary cancel culture creates new avenues for status destruction.

Finally, we discuss pathways for healing after humiliation. While revenge might feel satisfying in the moment, understanding the true costs of vengeance versus genuine recovery offers a more hopeful way forward.

Join KulaMind, our community and program for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. We teach essential skills for managing crises, setting boundaries, and practicing self-care during challenging relationships.

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• If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hi, little helpers.
Today we are going back to oursocial emotions, which tend to
be like mine and Kibbe's kind offavorite emotions to talk about
.
Those are like shame andembarrassment and guilt, like

(00:21):
you know, like 90% of theemotions we feel at any given
time.
guilt, like you know, like 90%of the emotions we feel at any
given time, but there is onesocial emotion that we have paid
zero attention to and in fact,most people tend not to pay too
much attention to this one, eventhough it is the spiciest of
all, that is, humiliation.
So we are going to talk allabout this gnarly social emotion

(00:42):
, arguably even more painfulthan shame.
I didn't think I'd ever saythat was possible.
And uh, kibbe, why are youmaking that face?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:51):
Um, what I mean?
I was I.
I just assumed that humiliationwas like an extreme form of
shame.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:58):
Uh-uh, it's a severed emotion.
We'll talk about what.
Yeah, okay, all right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09):
Well, I'm going to learn.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10):
I thought I was going to come in
with all these thoughts andideas and facts, and I'm going
to be schooled in this one.
Well, first tell us howKulaMind can help people who are
humiliated not shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:19):
You're humiliated.
Well, you have a loved onewho's humiliated.
Yeah, I mean, it's actuallyreally, really exciting.
I'm so excited to talk about itbecause before it was just like
an idea and now it's it's areal thing.
So Kula Mind is our officialcommunity and support platform
for people who have loved onesstruggling with mental health.
But really the people in it arealso struggling with mental

(01:40):
health themselves.
It's just that they it'saffecting their relationships.
So you know, if you have someonein your life, like a partner,
who's struggling with angerissues, or you're dealing with
toxic relationships yourself, or, um, feeling like you're
struggling with self-worth andfeeling humiliated and shamed in
your relationship, um, checkout, cool of mine.

(02:01):
We are going through all thesedifferent skills.
Like we just covered a coupleskills about what to do in a
crisis, like when shit hits thefan right, when someone's at
risk or when someone's going todo something really dangerous.
What do you do?
So?
And we're going to doboundaries setting, coming up
and how to take care of yourselfand all that fun stuff.
So if you are just curious andwant to check it out, go to

(02:25):
kulamindcom, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.
com, and there's links in theshow notes where you can learn
more.
And, jacqueline, I'm bringingyou on to teach.
You know, maybe boundarysetting or something fun that
you want to teach.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:40):
So yeah , we'll figure it out, Um so
should we start?
Off by talking about how it'snot shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:49):
Yep, because I did not know that.
I thought it was just likeintense shame, right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:54):
No, it's related, but there are, I
would say, three major importantdifferences.
Three major importantdifferences.
So this actually comes from theLatin humiliare, meaning to
humble or bring down.
So this is a deeply dysphoricfeeling associated with being or

(03:29):
perceiving humiliated byanother person or entity, right
or group of people, and wetypically think of that entity
as one having power over you.
So I can feel shame for doingpoorly on a math test, but I'm
not going to feel humiliated bydoing poorly on a math test.
I'm going to be humiliated bysome kid giving me a swirly in
the bathroom, right.
So there kind of has to be aperpetrator in humiliation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:55):
I see.
So is it almost like it's?
Is it okay?
Is the feeling shame?
But it's just under a certaincircumstance where an authority
figure or someone on um a higheron a hierarchy, puts you down.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:09):
I mean it's debatable.
But there are two moreimportant differences that I
would point out.
Okay, so right, so, first ofall, so, so humiliation is more
specific than shame.
It's going to, it's going tohappen in probably fewer
contexts, more specific contextsand, um, you could probably go
your whole life without feelinghumiliation and actually be the
better for it.
Versus shame is prettyimportant to feel sometimes, um,

(04:33):
but humiliation, so the secondmajor distinction, so right, so.
The first is that there's aperpetrator who has more power
than you and they debase you insome way.
That there's a perpetrator whohas more power than you and they
debase you in some way.
The second major differencebetween humiliation and shame is
that when you are shamed, youkind of take on the negative

(04:56):
evaluation of yourself andyou're often the one who
actually gives the negativeevaluation.
So when you're shamed, you'llsay I'm terrible.
Oh, I'm the worst, I can't doanything right.
You make yourself feel low in asense.
Humiliation does not actuallynecessarily entail you buying
into that.
Instead, you feel like somebodyelse has made you feel those

(05:19):
ways.
But you wouldn't necessarilysay, yes, it's true that I'm
nothing and worthless, wouldn'tnecessarily say yes, it's true
that I'm nothing and worthless.
Instead you'd say that personis treating me as if I'm nothing
as worthless.
So it's a loss of status, butyou don't necessarily ascribe to
the loss in like a personal way.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:38):
That's interesting, okay, okay, yeah,
all right, that's making moresense.
My definition is that you havea status or identity in the
world, like you're known forsomething, a reputation, and
you're publicly rejected orattacked by this authority.
Figure this extra implicationthat you it's almost like you

(06:08):
didn't have a right to thatstatus to begin with, that it
just completely annihilates thatreputation, right Like you,
it's stripped from you, um thatidentity.
But would you say that that'saccurate?
Or you say, are you saying likeit doesn't need to have those?
I don't know, elements of publicrejection or public calling out
or well, it depends on what youmean by like having that

(06:31):
totally stripped are you?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:32):
is it totally stripped in the eyes of
others or in your own eyes?
Because the thing is, shame isvery, very likely to quickly
come after humiliation, but itdoesn't necessarily have to.
If I'm like there are examples,so I'm like in the combat world
right now, right, so like a lotof the kind of traumas and
stuff are more combat related.

(06:52):
So if we imagine somebody isbeing tortured, they're a
prisoner of war, they're made to, you know, eat their own shit
or something that they wouldfeel horribly humiliated, but
they might not actually agree,right, that they deserve to be
eating shit or that they arenothing, but they are going to
understand that they are nothingto somebody else and that they

(07:12):
have suffered a horrible,horrible loss of status.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:18):
That's really interesting, and you know what
this is making me think, whichis what I like about doing this
with you Okay, interesting.
So, really, it's like it'shumiliation.
It's humiliation though anemotion, or is it a social

(07:42):
situation, right?
Is it basically like someonetaking power over you, like a
humiliation, like shame, soundslike that internal feeling of
taking in that judgment of I ambad, but then humiliation is
like that person thinks I'm badand is destroying my reputation
or my status or identity.
But is it associated with avery specific feeling, because

(08:06):
you could feel all sorts ofdifferent things in that
scenario, right?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (08:11):
I think I know what you're talking
about.
Like I'm kind of butting upagainst the same sort of
question.
I mean, I feel like everybodykind of instinctively knows what
it would feel like to be, forinstance, called out as stupid
in the middle of a classroom.

(08:31):
Right Like you, you answer aquestion and the teacher's like
that was a stupid answer, and Ithis might seem unlikely, except
that actually 40 percent ofmedical trainees report having
been publicly humiliated.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:46):
Oh yeah, because it's like what is it
Pimping?
There's like a.
There's like a if anyonelistening knows the word, but
there's an actual like a wordfor putting the trainees on the
spot, and saying like what is it?
What are the diagnosticcriteria for this?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:02):
And that's supposed to be like on
the hazing thing called pimpingor something, humiliation I mean
I can, I'm not and I'm sureI've blocked out instances of
humiliation in my past, but youknow it, it comes, it's.
It's hard to kind of parse out,like what is the exact, like
pinpointed feeling of any givenemotion.

(09:23):
Like humiliation is going tohave so many bunched in with
that, like you're probably alsogoing to feel shame and you're
probably also going to feelanger I'll talk about that in a
second um, but there is thatkind of like that like wind
taken out of you, kind of likeflushed, gross feeling that I

(09:43):
think, we can kind ofinstinctually imagine, but but
when we get super technicalabout it, I don't know.
It is, however, classed as anemotion.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:51):
Interesting Okay.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:53):
The third major difference is that
so we know that shame is likelyto have a secondary kind of
action or urge of like gettingangry with the person who has
like made you feel shamed orwitnessed you being shamed.
But in general, the action orurge of shame is to like
withdraw or hide or likedisappear through the
floorboards with humiliation.

(10:14):
The major action urge is notjust anger, it is vengeance, and
this is like super consistent,huh, and it makes sense, right,
because you have to write thescales, you have suffered a
status hit and you need torectify that situation, and the

(10:36):
only way it feels like you cando that is by taking your
revenge.
If somebody has, you know,overpowered you and then
disempowered you, then you areprobably going to make a power
play, right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:47):
All right, that makes sense.
Yeah, I've read that it'scalled like humiliate,
humiliated fury or rage.
Is that what you're thinking of?
Sure, I mean, it sounds likeit's just like like an injustice
based on your standing in, andwhat's that threat is like the
injustice of your standing insociety being taken away yeah

(11:11):
threatened and I mean it's.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (11:13):
It's pretty legit, like we know, like
from you know, from animalstudies, um, that animals with
lower status have all sorts ofproblems.
They're more disease-prone,they don't reproduce.
I was just visiting thisGnostic priest who breeds
peacocks and there was one malepeacock with no tail feathers.

(11:36):
Yes, that is a sentence that Isaid.
He had no tail feathers becausethe other male peacocks deemed
him weak and plucked them allout.
They know.
So now he can't reproduce,right, he's not going to get a
mate, and it was so sad, oh mygod so what was he?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:00):
what was that peacock doing?
Just kind of slumping around.
I mean, what did that's so sad?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (12:09):
I mean, there's a risk of him being
killed, but I think for nowthey're just like.
We'll settle for just takingyour tail feathers so that you
can't compete with us for these,these hens, that's so sad.
But yeah, so so lower statusstatus animals are.
They're associated with more,with higher glucocorticoids or

(12:30):
glucocorticoids or somethingwhich it's actually not the case
that higher cortisol means thatyou're more stressed out.
Ptsd is actually associatedwith lower cortisol, like
slightly lower cortisol.
Cortisol is not the problem,it's actually these
leukocorticoids.
I'm just saying that, like,loss of status is associated
with an out of whack stressresponse.

(12:51):
So your stress symptom, yourstress symptom system, oh my
gosh, is out of whack and you'rehaving a bummer of a time right
.
So it's actually prettydangerous to be low status, and
so it's important that this iswhy we have this emotional
response with this action urge.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:06):
It's important to try to rectify that
talking about this in thecontext of at war and the army.

(13:28):
I'm thinking about howhumiliation now should be talked
more about as a trauma, right?
Because, like, we talk abouttrauma so much as risking your
safety, right Emotional safety,physical safety and we often are
getting a rise in like socialanxiety and avoidant personality

(13:49):
disorder.
And when you talk to people whostruggle with those like social
anxiety or like self-esteemissues, there's some kind of
humiliation story in their past,right, like they were bullied,
or now we have, you know, cancelculture.
We have, you know, uh, callingpeople out right, publicly.

(14:10):
Um, and you, you were justsaying like, oh, I can't think
of when I was humiliated.
I'm like I mean you've beenhumiliated a bunch of times.
Um, if you've ever seen theshow adolescents on Netflix,
have you seen it yet?
I've been.
I think I've been trying totell you.
Oh yeah, like that, that isshowing an example of what

(14:32):
happens when kids are like cyberbullied, when they're bullied
on social media.
It's, it goes from justbullying right, like just kids
in the playground fighting um,which is already terrifying and
traumatic but publicly, and likereally taking away and
threatening someone's socialstatus, right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (14:48):
Yeah, no, it's a really important
point and this was why I wastalking about it actually in the
context of like combat andtrauma is that it has
interesting implications fortrauma treatment.
The kind of number one go-totreatment for PTSD is prolonged
exposure.
But prolonged exposure reallyworks on the like, more like

(15:09):
fearful emotions.
So you're really not supposedto do something like PE unless
you've experienced somethingwhere you had fight or flight,
like you have this absoluteterror and you have to like
basically come into contact withthat terror again.
I am doing PE with a patientwho had that experience where he

(15:34):
was absolutely terrified forhis life but it was bookended by
experiences of humiliation.
So he was actually in thatposition in the first place
place because he had sufferedracial humiliation and he kind
of like left that context, wentoutside and happened to be put
in the dangerous situation andthen was on the other end yelled

(15:56):
at by a superior who was likealso racist and it's interesting
because I was trained to.
Basically in PE you have tolike you have to make them shut
their eyes and speak in thepresent tense in as much detail
as possible, but you want tokeep it clipped to the part
where they're terrified.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:16):
Because you might also want to explain like
what prolonged exposure is, justin case anyone listening
doesn't.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbu (16:24):
Prolonged exposure is just in case anyone
listening doesn't.
It's basically, like you know,when you have PTSD you kind of
stop living your life becauseyou're so controlled by the
avoidance.
If you experience somethingthat is so absolutely horrific
or terrifying, then you'veexperienced an emotion, an
emotional experience that younever want to experience again,

(16:51):
even kind of vicariously or inremembrance, right.
So your body has basically gonethrough this experience of
saying that's your, that's youralarm system, right, it's like
you can't feel this.
So do whatever you can to notfeel this because your, your
body's kind of hoping thatthat'll push you out of the
dangerous situation.
Right, your instincts will cropup, you'll run away, you'll
fight, you'll do whatever ittakes to get out of that
emotional experience, becausethat means getting out of harm's
way.
But with PTSD the alarm bellsnever turn off completely, and

(17:18):
so you're always trying to getaway from that, those feelings,
and you start living your lifein avoidance.
So you start, you know, gettingreally, um, distracted or shut
down or numbing out, because somuch of the time, what would it
be happening in your mindotherwise?
Is these feelings and theseemotions coming back up, these
memories popping into your head,so you're like, oh, my God, get

(17:39):
away, get away, get away.
I, you know I'll.
I'll go do drugs and then I'llmake them go away.
Um, or I'll just numb myselfout with I don't know like TV or
endless distractions or work,or whatever the case may be.
And also, I can't possibly gonear anything out in the real
world that could put me in thatsituation again.
I can never feel that way again, so I can't be near noises that

(18:03):
might remind me of whathappened.
I can't be near people thatremind me of what happened.
So PTSD takes away so much fromyour life and prolonged
exposure.
You have to turn around andstart facing these things, and
one of the ways to make it sothat you don't have to avoid the
trauma memory all the time, isto go back into the trauma
memory and basically say, hey,I'm not scared of you Cause I'm

(18:24):
gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going togo in.
They are scared of it, but likeit's like turning towards a
monster in a nightmare, right,like I'm going to go back into
those feelings and let them passthrough me naturally.
Um, I'm going to see that I canrevisit this place and the fear

(18:46):
won't stay at a 10 out of 10,because I'm not actually in a
dangerous situation like I wasbefore.
That fear didn't leave mebecause I was actually in danger
.
But how emotions actually workis that if you let them pass
through, then your brain willlearn oh okay, I don't, I don't
have to.
These emotions don't have toshow up in this situation

(19:06):
because it's not happening rightnow.
Oh okay, I didn't, I wasn'taware of that.
So, anyways, you make themclose their eyes, speak as if
they're in the present tense,like if I were going to do
prolonged exposure for my daytoday.
I would say, like I woke up, Icuddled a dog or I am cuddling a
dog.
Sorry, I am waking up, I'mcuddling a dog.
I decide to take a sick daybecause I have 45 hours left and

(19:30):
only two weeks left to work andonly two meetings.
Today I decide to go in thepark, like you, just sort of in
detail, and then you add a lotof emotion, like I am feeling
nervous about asking for a sickday, even though I'm not
technically sick.
Getting nervous about askingfor a sick day even though I'm
not technically sick.
I'm feeling the sunlight on myface as I read my book in the

(19:53):
park and I feel lovely inside, Ifeel peaceful, like you want to
give some attention to yourinner world.
The point is, the risk of doingthat with humiliation is that
humiliation is going toimmediately spark anger, because
that's what it does, right?
If you were humiliated, ofcourse you're going to be pissed
about that.
You have to right the wrongright.
Well, you don't actually want abunch of anger coming up during

(20:14):
PE, because anger is going tomask the vulnerable emotions
that need to play out.
So with this patient, forinstance, I had to clip it.
We had to get rid of the racialstuff and go straight for the
actual endangered situation,because when he talked about all
of it, he would get so angryjustifiably talking about the

(20:36):
racial insult that happened atthe beginning and at the end,
that he would just stay angrythe whole time and we could
never get underneath that to thefear and when.
So if you have like ahumiliation, then can you do
prolonged exposure with it?
I'm kind of unclear about that.
But that brings me to the nextpoint, which is that a lot of
trauma is humiliating, like rape, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:57):
Yeah, yeah, especially the social fallout,
right, the, the, what it does toyour reputation.
I mean, do you so it?
But it would be different if,if you just felt shame, like,
let's say, you were sexuallyassaulted and you felt shame for
that, that would be differentthan like someone publicly

(21:18):
saying, oh you know, you want toget under the shame too.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:22):
I mean, if you think about CPT, which
is another trauma treatment,like shame is considered a
secondary emotion, you want toget under the shame too.
I mean, if you think about CPT,which is another trauma
treatment, like shame isconsidered a secondary emotion,
you want to get underneath that,to the powerlessness and the
terror and the sadness, etcetera.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:35):
I mean this is interesting because it just
is.
So it's.
We've talked about this, abouthow our country and our world is
getting so divided and we areshaming each other left and
right.
And you know the right thing tosay, the wrong thing to say
you're a bad person.
I'm good person, based onpolitical beliefs or whatever.

(21:57):
Um, if you say the wrong word,you know you're canceled.
Um, and we're probably gettingmore and more into the.
You know using humiliation as a, as a strategy to get power
over other people or to feel, toget vengeance over some hurt
that you've experienced.
Right, like yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (22:19):
Yeah, no, I mean I'm.
This is why I'm so angry at theDemocrats.
I can't even believe it.
I mean because it was such apatently obviously stupid
strategy.
They think they're shamingpeople so that those people will
go, you know, lick their woundsand disappear and then they can
, you know, have more of like apresence in society.
But they're actuallyhumiliating people.

(22:39):
You shame somebody in public.
That's humiliation, and thatmeans that those people are
going to want to take revengeand guess what they have?
They're actively doing it.
So, yeah, I mean, you don't,and I think a lot of Democrats
are perceived as having morepower, because a lot of this
humiliation came from the elites, and this is what people have

(23:00):
been saying forever you can'ttell somebody to go educate
themselves who hasn't had anopportunity to be fucking
educated.
That's such a humiliating thingto say.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:12):
So I guess, like humiliation only really
works.
Let's say, if you do haveestablished power, right, like,
let's say, those peacocks, theother peacocks are stronger and
they could pluck out all of thepoor peacocks feathers, and that
would work.
But if they try to do it andthen that peacock decides to get

(23:34):
, like, get the humiliation furyand fight back, then it's just
not effective.
Right, then, you're just makinga war, right, you're just like
you're just making a war, right,you're just like you're just
starting to battle, right, right, how, um, how does, do we know

(23:55):
anything about narcissism andhumiliation Cause?
I imagine that, um, I'm thinkingof a couple people who, um, a
couple of patients, a couplepatients, a couple friends with
narcissistic traits, and theywill cite a bullying moment,
right, like, they had a traumawhere they were humiliated in

(24:17):
some way, they were mocked inpublic or torn down or some way
in public or torn down or someway, and then, and then that
feeling of like I'm never goodenough and I'm going to prove to
the world that I'm good enoughin this very narcissistic, I'm
going to show everyone howpowerful I am, right, and I'm
wondering if they just feel likethere's more sensitive to

(24:38):
humiliation, even like critcriticism feel like probably
humiliating when it might not tosomeone else.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (24:47):
Yeah, I would think so, I mean, but
here.
So here's an example.
So we know that, um, thingslike, there was a study that, um
, they put a bunch of rapists ina scanner and they showed them
two kinds of porn and theymeasured their, like, penile

(25:09):
blood flow, and one kind of pornwas violent and the other
included humiliation, and therapists all liked the
humiliation porn more than theydid the violence porn, meaning
that it wasn't about violence.
It's about humiliation and,theoretically, or the theory, is
that if you have beenhumiliated, you are going to

(25:34):
want to reenact humiliation, butwith role reversal where you
are now the humiliator.
So it you know, it's like I, Ifear saying you want vengeance
what you want vengeance.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:52):
As you were saying before, if you were
humiliated, you want vengeance.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (25:55):
Yeah, I mean this is humiliate someone
else well, this is why peoplewho have been humiliated as
children are at greater risk forabusing other people, because
they spent their lives for amultitude of reasons, but one of
them is that they've spenttheir little kid lives having
like you are, by definition, atthe losing end of a power
dynamic.
When you were a kid, everyadult has more power than you.

(26:17):
So, um, you know, if you spendyour childhood being abused, you
are kind of spending it beinghumiliated, and so, in order to
get vengeance, you might not beable to take it out on like your
abusers, but you might be ableto take it out on others and at
least at least reenact things sothat you have the chance to be
at the other end of that powerdistribution, and then that is

(26:38):
going to make it more likelythat you will sexually assault
people or regularly assault, youknow, confused women how was it
like I mean talking aboutexamples of and like the effects
of what humiliation can do whatwas it like to get humiliated
on online after the bachelor,like there's there.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:59):
I don't know if you feel like a total
humiliation, but there have been, you know.
You mentioned being beingtrolled or rumors against you
and things like that.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think the clearest
example was probably the rumorthat I was a racist drug addled
whore who was also cheating onmy boyfriend Bad.
I mean, I was angry for threeyears you know I mean about that
, but about other things, whereit just felt like people were

(27:32):
constantly doing power grabsonline.
Everything became about like,how can I make you feel bad
about yourself and make you feelsmall and ignorant and like
your opinions are unacceptable,and that made me angry and it
made me I might have votedrepublican if there had been a
less abhorrent person who wasrunning, you know, like just to

(27:52):
be like fuck you all.
Um, yeah, I it.
Well, I mean I, you know it wascoupled with like making me
really scared for my future.
Um, but, yeah, I mean, I waspretty what's the word?
Misanthropic for a while and,just like you know, I did not.
I did not want to engage withhuman beings in the same way.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:20):
I was wondering what the what, the
effects of humiliation like thathumiliation, anger, fury.
What did you do with it?
What did you like?
Did you seek vengeance, did youhave fantasies of it, or did
you just withdraw?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (28:33):
I certainly had fantasies of it.
I mean, I became very obsessedwith like politics, with
identity politics and wanting todestroy a certain kind of
liberal that like what's, whatdo we call it before virtue

(28:55):
signaling wanted to like destroythe virtue signalers.
I was smart enough not to dosomething colossally stupid, I
mean.
But yeah, I mean, you remember,like my ex and I got all into
that and it's.
The same thing happened in Duke, right, Like as soon as we
announced our relationship.
Um, I don't.
I don't know if humiliation isthe exact right word, but it was

(29:15):
kind of humiliating to havefaculty and students that
gossiping about us constantlyand feeling justified in doing
so.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:22):
And yeah, I mean we wanted to squash them

(29:43):
like hard line in any direction,but it is interesting how um
like, like very intense liberals, like virtue signaling, were
the ones who were the most meanand shaming to you yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (29:52):
But also I will say, like a lot of
times people would give me crapfor playing like both sides or
for like specifically picking onliberals.
But I actually did not feellike the Republicans, who were
mean to me, had more power thanme.
And that might have been thedifference, and I don't
necessarily know why, becausethey're all strangers on the
Internet, but I guess becauseliberals are my friend group,

(30:16):
that's like much more my owncontext.
They, you know, duke, I don'tthink has hired a Republican in
probably 75 years at least tothe psychology department.
I mean, it's just like all ofour institutions were heavily,
heavily liberal.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:31):
I see.
So it really does fall into theyou know, when we're talking
about the definition ofhumiliation, of like.
These people have power overyou, these people have influence
over your life, whereas youknow, if you were shamed or or
yelled at or criticized bysomeone who doesn't have any
power over you, that doesn'thave the same humiliating effect
.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:51):
Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:55):
I was thinking about and reading about
umiliation, one that popped upthat we totally all forgot about
was.
Monica Lewinsky.
She's a 22-year-old girl who'sworking in the White House has,

(31:17):
like the most charismatic manyou know, take an interest in
her.
And then she I mean I wasreading quotes that she said the
public humiliation wasexcruciating, life was almost
unbearable and she felt socrushed by it that she became
suicidal.
By it that she became suicidal.

(31:40):
So it was only about she had to, like, go into hiding for a
decade and slowly recover herown narrative of what happened.
But now she's a anti-bullyingadvocate, which is amazing, but
it's just like I think aboutthat.
And this poor girl who do youremember?
We used to call her like PepperPot or something Like, just
because?
Do you remember that?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (31:59):
No.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:00):
Oh yeah, they called her Pepper Pot because
she just was, like you know,shapely.
I was like three when thishappened.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (32:07):
But yeah, I mean it is appalling
what this nation did to her.
I would hope that we are pastthat kind of thing, you know.
I mean, yeah, he got impeached,but he got to ride off into the
sunset and still be thispopular president who was just
cool and had swagger, whereasshe was like a college student

(32:27):
who was called that and a whore,and all of the blame was placed
on her somehow, even though hewas the most powerful man in the
world.
I mean, it's like sheerinsanity what she had to go
through.
And she was betrayed by her ownfriend and then betrayed by

(32:47):
Bill Clinton and then betrayedby the media.
I mean, I don't, I would besuicidal too.
I don't know how she didn't.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:58):
If anyone met her, if anyone said, oh hi,
nice to meet you, monicaLewinsky.
Like, the only thing you wouldthink about is this right Like,
unless you somehow have no ideawho this person is, the only the
only association you have withher is the right Having no

(33:18):
dignity.
Right Like there's.
That is just like victim ofhumiliation, that poor woman.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:27):
Yeah, and they went after her looks,
probably more than anything else, and that was just for no other
reason than to humiliate her.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:35):
It was like how could she dare to have this
role, like, how could she dareto be this person who hooks up
with the president looking likethat?
Right, it was just like it wasjust shaming because she looked
like homely or whatever, like apepper pot.
I mean it's just terribleterrible.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (34:02):
it's interesting, though, thinking
about I haven't seen genderspecific studies between,
obviously, men and women, um,but you know, I mean men have
much more of an urge to violence, and so it'd be interesting to
see if women have a slightlydifferent action, or if it's
more about fantasy or somethinglike that, um, or if women are
less likely to feel humiliatedin the same way, because we're
kind of used to having a loss ofstatus by virtue of being

(34:25):
female and second class.
I don't know, but sexualassault is such an obvious
example of humiliation, but Idon't actually usually hear
those patients trying to getrevenge.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:44):
Yeah, I mean, this is also happening in less
extreme cases too, Like you know, I guess, with KulaMind too,
and talking to members of ourKula Mind community and just
people who have loved onesstruggling with mental health.
It's a lot of people who havepartners who are struggling, and

(35:06):
this is a theme in toxicrelationships, right.
Like we've talked about howcontempt is one of the major
killers of a long-termrelationship, Like it's one of
the best predictors of divorce.
So contempt is like a, you know,like the seed of it but,

(35:26):
there's a lot of humiliating inin toxic relationships, right,
there's a lot of like making funof your partner in front of
your friends, or, um, likemaking belittling remarks or you
know.
Just, I mean, it could beteasing, it could be jokes, it

(35:47):
could be like outright you know,or, or like gossiping and
saying, like spilling secretsabout your partner that will
make the whole friend group lookat them differently, but
there's a lot at themdifferently.
But there's a lot of this kindof like.
It's a lot of this writingpower dynamics or trying to take
over power of your partnerthrough these different ways of

(36:08):
taking away their power.
Right, it's like it's more of apower play than it is about
like, oh, we're a team and I'mtrying to work through my anger
or hurt with you.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (36:17):
Yeah, it's interesting because you had
brought up narcissism.
If you think about narcissisticinjury, there's a humiliating
quality to that without therenecessarily needing to be a
legit humiliation.
Done so like narcissistic injuryseems to me as if it's kind of
felt humiliation withoutvalidity, like sort of

(36:37):
unjustified felt humiliation,right.
So like somebody who is uh like, let's say, they're out with
their girlfriend and she pokesfun at you or at him, um, or
sort of flirts a little bit withanother man, but it's sort of

(37:02):
harmless.
Whatever the narcissisticinjury is going to feel like I
need to hurt her I need to writethe scales again.
There is like a felt loss ofstatus.
Somehow that needs to bechanged.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:17):
Yes, I remember this happened to you
right.
You went to with your ex, youwent to a comedy show and they
said something about like you,like women, like this, and you
nudged him and was like that'slike you.
And he went into a rage.
He was like so mean to you he,you, I had to pick you up like

(37:39):
crying in a on a street cornerbecause he just was.
So he felt so criticized orjudged or embarrassed by that
comment, even though there wasno one around listening, like
you were just whispering intohis ear, right, like I said,
yeah, it was a joke aboutvirgins and his ex fiance had
been a virgin, so I just likeit's like you.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:56):
How do you like virgins?
And?
And his ex-fiance had been avirgin.
So I just like it's like you.
How old do you like virgins?
And then that's when he calledme a prostitute in so many words
and you had to pick me up.
Yeah, which we've talked about.
But yeah, exactly Like that,that, that relationship and the
one prior early in my twenties.
It was just narcissistic injuryall over the place and it it
seems like the, the emotion thatthey may have been feeling was

(38:21):
a kind of humiliation, almostlike they're, they're finding
humiliation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:27):
Well, I was reading that humiliation, of
course, has really bad effectson mental health, right?
It's like if there's any tipyou want to take away from this
conversation is humiliation isnot good.
Like, don't do it.
It doesn't teach people how tobe better, it doesn't make you
closer, it doesn't actually getyou that much power and it yeah,

(38:53):
like the other person just getsangry, wants vengeance right,
it's just not effective if youwant to connect.
If you want to be a mean person, go ahead and humiliate all you
want.
But, most people listening tothis are not bad people.
So I read that.
It's especially at least ofdepression, right?
Social anxiety, avoidantpersonality disorder and suicide

(39:17):
.
Did I say suicidality alreadyit makes you sad Okay.
So accumulation makes youmentally strong, makes you
mentally ill and it's more.
It's, it has a bigger impact onpeople with a fragile sense of
self right, like when youalready don't feel, when you
already feel insecure about yourstatus or your identity.

(39:39):
Right, your own power in theworld.
If someone rips it away fromyou and humiliates you, you were
going to react to it.
And now, if you're a confidentperson who's just like, you know
what?
I'm a decent person.
I know people love me, you knowwhatever.
And then someone tries tohumiliate me and be like
whatever.

(39:59):
But, for narcissists, who havesuch a fragile sense of status
right Like you know, if theyalready feel like their whole
worth is wrapped up in this onestatus being powerful or
beautiful or rich or successfuland someone questions it, so,
like dings on that one piece andthey already feel insecure

(40:20):
about it.
They're going to feelhumiliated because, even if it's
like haha, a little joke, theyare like I was just publicly, um
, ridiculed and my whole worthwas questioned, Right, so
they're going to feel likethey're like they were
humiliated when, in fact, like,the effects of it might not be

(40:43):
as humiliating, right Like it'salmost like delusion of seeing
humiliation and things that arenot actually as threatening to
your status as they think it is.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:53):
Yeah Well, and that could also be
because you know, if you'renarcissistic or fragile, then
it's not implausible that youfelt a lot of humiliation early
in life and that's why you havesuch a fragile sense of self is
that you were disempowered a lotor you were treated as if you
didn't matter, and so of course,you're not going to want to

(41:13):
feel that, not going to want tofeel that, but it's interesting.
Political implications too,like this is why Hitler rose to
power was that Germany washumiliated in the Treaty of
Versailles after World War One.
So you got this guy coming andspeaking to that and speaking
about revenge.
We are going to show the worldthe power of Germany and punish
them for what they've done to us.

(41:33):
And here's a scapegoat thejewish were named.
But whatever I mean, it's likeinteresting thinking about
israel and palestine.
You know, like they may theirgame may be that they're just
going to humiliate palestineinto oblivion so that because
otherwise it's, I would think itcould become a terrorist hotbed

(41:54):
.
I mean, if I, if I werePalestinian right now, I'd sure
as shit want to like rise upagainst Israel.
Yeah, I mean you have theseoutstanding conflicts, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:07):
Yeah, and I I've talked about how, um that I
had to.
I put a post on the cool ofmine, instagram, um, about a
situation that I've been hearinga lot, which is women who are
noticing that their partners are, um, getting angrier, drinking

(42:27):
more, lashing out, going onthese, you know, really like, uh
, man is like a manosphere, likeinfluencers on YouTube or
something that say like, oh, we,you know, men have to rise up,
right?
So there's a lot of women arenoticing in their partners.
I posted about that and I got aton of men who just, like were

(42:49):
just trolling me up like everysingle day, like, well, it's
because you made us feel smalland it's your fault and you did
this to us, and this is why weare waking up and like fighting
back.
And I was like whoa, like I Ihonestly like had no idea,
naively, that men felt sohumiliated by women or by

(43:12):
society, right, and so it isseeing this and I probably I did
something wrong.
Now that I think about it, I, inmy caption, I wrote about how I
think this is a, you know,driven by shame, that there's a
lot of feeling disem.
I said that this anger thatthey're expressing might be a
sign of shame.
Men were like no, you're anidiot, you're a liberal.

(43:45):
Women are the stupidest reasonwhy I'm like this, and you
should probably give moreblowjobs to your husband.
Blah, blah, blah.
I was like whoa, but now Irealize that maybe I stepped in
it because maybe I said it wasshame, which meant that they
feel bad about themselves, butmaybe it's just humiliation.
They feel humiliated, they feellike you, being a man, the way
you were taught is bad, andthey're like well, I still think

(44:07):
it's good, but now I feel likeno, like I don't have any power
and my status is questioned, andthey're just angry now and
they're just angry now, whoops.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:17):
Well, it's an interesting thing we've
done, which is try to wound thestatus of a group of people who
have a lot of power, becausethey're in a very good position
to seek that vengeance, and theydid in the voting booth and now
with violence and with kind ofrecapturing patriarchal culture.

(44:40):
Um, so yeah, we probably wantto be pretty careful about who
we try like, whose status we tryto bring down, because if, if
you still have a lot of power,then you're probably not going
to put up with it is this whythe?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:55):
democrats should not have fucking ignored
men, so dumb yeah, also to bringit out of the political and
social sphere.
It is humiliation is a terribleparenting strategy.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:08):
I think that was I we are.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:11):
Our generation is a little different
.
Our generation is way moreempathetic.
But humiliating your kid orteaching them through shaming or
criticizing or making fun ofthem does not work.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:24):
Did you see what is her name?
Maddie, a bachelor girl.
She won Peter's season, or shekind of did not.
Hannah Ann, but the other chick.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:38):
Oh, the one, the Susie, susie, ann, no, ann,
no no, that's a different season.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:42):
Madison pruitt, beloved, has like two
million followers.
I never really understood thisum, she just kind of came across
to me as like a just anotheraverage kind of contestant.
She and her husband had a babynamed hasana first of all, or
hasana very biblical name andthey went on a podcast and

(46:03):
bragged about their intentionsto spank their child, to spank
hasana when she is a little bitolder, and they talked about how
this was justified biblically,because there's some talk of
like using the rod on people.
Actually, there's a differentinterpretation and they were
like very proud of this.
And, of course, this has causeda huge stir Because spanking is

(46:29):
humiliating.
Naturally, that's what it is.
It doesn't.
Spanking doesn't have to hurt,right?
It doesn't actually have to beviolence.
It is about overpowering yourchild and interesting.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:43):
I was, I was, I was, I was like what, I was
trying to follow you because,like I thought spanking was more
using like pain as punishment.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:51):
But I, I see yeah, I mean it's
interesting, right.
It's kind of like some peoplebeat their kids.
They use like belts or rods orsomething that's incredibly
painful, and I think thatthey're thinking that the
intervention is using pain as away to you know, as a form of
aversive therapy.

(47:12):
I don't want to feel pain, sotherefore I'll stop doing this,
but spanking doesn't necessarilyhurt.
I mean, if you're just usingyour hand right and spank, like
you know, half the women in theworld like being spanked, I mean
it's not.
It's not about pain, it's abouthumiliation and it's a really
bad punishment strategy.
It's like a really, really badfor behavior change because that

(47:35):
is just going to teach allsorts of bad lessons.
But it's it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:38):
It's going to teach the little kid that they
are debased and debasable andthat their parents will, you
know, overpower them in waysthat are incredibly invasive and
violating and they're probablygoing to get pretty fucking
angry and this reminds me of abattle that I had with my mom,

(48:04):
of course, but there was thisfamily event where and I think
that maybe the Chinese, I don'tknow if we tend to humiliate
more, but it's definitely acritical criticizing like a
child in public is a little bitmore acceptable and maybe not

(48:25):
seen as as critical.
But, for example, we were at afamily event and I was getting
dressed I think it was a funeralactually, which makes it even
crazier but, um, and my momtalked about my weight in front
of everyone.
She was like you have gotten,you've gotten fat, you've gained
a lot of weight.
Um, and I was humiliated.
I was so embarrassed, I was soum.

(48:48):
I was so angry and my familyI'll never forget this was so
weird.
My family, like some of them,defended me and some of them
were like no, this is, this is.
Your mother is trying to do anice thing.
She's trying to point out, in away that you would notice, that
you need to fix this.
You need to, like, lose weight,and I think people would see

(49:11):
you better if you like.
They literally said this I'mnot, this is not like a.
They said.
They literally said this.
This is not like a.
They actually said you wouldstop dating these student types
and actually date valuable menif you lost weight.
And her saying this to you inpublic is like the way to make
you do this.
And I was like what I'm like?

(49:32):
I'm American, I'm like youdon't talk, you know, like body
positivity, you know, but yougot married to your first
husband, so it's bad.
Ah, that's why it's not about mycore beliefs or my
psychodynamics, and you knowit's.

(49:52):
It's just cause I was, you know, 10 pounds too heavy.
But yeah, it's like,humiliation is not an effective
thing to do If you want it, noone.
It doesn't promote growth.
It doesn't promote change.
It might make someone compliantbecause you plucked all their
you know fancy feathers out, butif you know, I think we're past

(50:17):
the point of using just powerand fear and domination as a way
to like promote connection orraising kids, right, yeah, I
assume.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:27):
There may be interesting cultural
studies around this.
I mean, I was just talking tomy supervisor about spanking
issue and she said that somebodystudied spanking in Hispanic
cultures and they actually foundthat the most effective
parenting were parents who werewarm and spanked.
Um, as opposed to, like, youknow, cold or um, I guess, like

(50:50):
warm but didn't spank.
But that doesn't mean thatspanking is good.
It could mean things like in aculture where spanking is kind
of the only known punishment,then people who aren't spanking
might be a bit too permissive.
They may not have otheralternatives that are being
effective.
Um, or they're just like, couldlike, like.

(51:13):
Like disciplining withoutspanking is actually kind of
difficult.
You have to.
You know, there's all thesedebates about, like, gentle
parenting versus, um, you know,like, authoritative parenting,
which entails some kind offinesse in like how you speak to

(51:33):
your kids, how you give themoptions, how you help them
understand the possibleconsequences of their behavior,
um, how you can develop a, thepossible consequences of their
behavior, how you can develop astern yet loving tone.
It's actually kind of anadvanced thing to do, and so if
you live in a place where theprimary form of discipline is
spanking, then there might notbe much of a replacement for

(51:55):
that.
I don't know she had someelegant other hypotheses to this
, but it would be interesting tostudy in other populations.
But yeah, I mean we have a lotof data showing that humiliation
is a pretty bad thing.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:10):
Well it's also.
Then we're really understandingwhat the impacts.
And how big is the impact ofhumiliation If?
If humiliation is an authorityfigure kind of ripping away,
taking away your status, yourstatus and identity, then I
imagine that it's worse if oneof if like how bad that

(52:32):
annihilation of your identity is, right it's.
It will be worse if thatauthority figure really takes
away everything right it's.
It would be worse if thatauthority figure really takes
away everything.
Right, it takes away your wholeidentity.
Um, really thinks badly of you,right that the identity is
completely gone.
Right, which would be it in thecase of a parent spanking their
kid who doesn't show love inother ways, right, like?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:55):
if.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:55):
I'm spanking you and I'm not spanking you in
a way that you like really feelthe brunt of the lack of love.
But if it might be different,if you're like, oh, my parents
love me and they don't thinkterribly, if they're not like
completely taking away mydignity, right, um, then it
might have a different impact.
And also from the other side,then it might have a different

(53:19):
impact.
And also from the other side,the victim.
If, if I am human, if, like myhusband makes fun of me in
public, I'm probably going tofeel not as bad, unless I A had,
was more insecure and, like mystatus and identity were more
fragile, or I I really thoughtthat he didn't love me or

(53:40):
respect me in other ways, right,so it would just have a
different impact of, like, howmuch is this humiliation
annihilating that identity?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:47):
Yeah, and there's a lot of.
There's a lot of differentaudience size.
We see that the mental healthconsequences are steeper.
The there's like a directcorrelation with the size of the
audience.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:00):
Interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (54:02):
You know, my training director
humiliating me is going to feelworse than like a junior
supervisor humiliating me.
So, yeah, it's kind of proximityto power kind of thing, your
own sort of initial standing,your own self-esteem, how kind
of like, um, your own sort ofinitial standing, your own
self-esteem, how kind of likedeviant or societally like

(54:24):
inappropriate the humiliation is.
So yeah, I mean, but it's it,it's.
This really is an interestingtopic, especially thinking about
like narcissistic injury andhow this is the impact versus
intent thing, like sometimesintent isn't there but the
impact still could be, as in thecase with narcissistic injury.

(54:46):
And sometimes, of course, theintent could be there but the
impact isn't, because you have aresilient self-esteem but it is
difficult to know what to dowith it in a treatment setting,
especially like with trauma.
I mean schema therapy isdifficult to know what to do
with in a treatment setting,especially like with trauma.
I mean schema therapy is anidea, right, like resurrecting
that person's self-esteem, but alot of times this is very hard
to get over if there hasn't beenum a writing of the scales.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:12):
Mm-hmm, I was wondering what the tips would
be.
I was wondering what the tipswould be Like if I, if you, or
anyone has experiencedexperienced this kind of
humiliation and they feel likeit is traumatic in many ways.
Right, like you, somethingimportant to you, like your

(55:32):
identity was taken away and it'swe're such social beings that
that is risking your life andsafety.
Right, if, if, like poor MonicaLewinsky, can't go around
without being hated, right, it's, it's a, it's a big deal.
So what do you do?
I mean, we could throw outideas, but is there any like
treatments for humiliation?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:53):
I don't think there's any treatment
specifically for humiliation,but there are component things
you can do.
I mean, I think first of allyou have to determine whether
it's a humiliation that can berectified.
If it can be, it might actuallybe the best idea to just go
ahead and do it.
I don't necessarily mean bytaking revenge necessarily, but

(56:14):
there has been research shownthat the victim doesn't actually
have to be the person whowrites the scales in order for
that victim to see benefit.
So this is why something likeallyship is important.
You know, if your friend,marginalized friend, has been
insulted, then you as the ally,can actually rectify the scales
for them and say like hey, thatwas racist, that wasn't cool,

(56:35):
that you know.
Whatever the case may be, punchthem in the face.
Who cares?
Um, so you know, if, if thatcan be done in a way that isn't
going to uh boomerang and causemore issues, then that could be
kind of the first thing.
I think it can be tempting forloved ones to accidentally

(56:57):
invalidate by saying like oh,don't feel that way, like that
guy's dumbass, you know, likeyou shouldn't feel, shouldn't
feel bad about what he said,like discrediting that person's
authority Right.
Which, like it's not necessarilybad to discredit the authority,
but you want to make sure thatyou're validating the humiliated

(57:17):
feelings Because you don't thenwant to be kind of not
re-humilated, but like it issuch an intense emotion that
anybody trying to talk you outof it is probably going to
backfire.
Mm-hmm, anybody trying to talkyou out of it is probably going
to backfire.
Um, so, probably, you know.
So we always say validate,validate, validate.

(57:37):
But, um, you know, finding away to do that that doesn't rile
them up further, but may comewith a plan of action Like how
do we want to rectify your lossof status?
How do we maybe want toconfront this person?
Um, how do we maybe want toconfront this person?
Um, you know, without majorconsequences, working on core

(57:58):
beliefs, you know, kind of witha therapist, like really trying
to understand, you know how tokind of repair some, some wounds
, and I also think thehumiliating person has to like
something like act therapy canbe helpful, which is, yes, you

(58:21):
carry this painful emotion, andcan that emotion be carried
while you go on with your life?
Does it have to actually bedealt with?
Does it have to be the drivingforce in your life or can it to
actually be dealt with?
Does it have to be the drivingforce in your life, or can it be
something that is allowed toexist and also the rest of you
does too?
What ideas do you have?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:44):
Yeah, I was thinking about how it's kind of
the way we talk about envy oryeah, just any kind of like
power, someone taking away yourpower.
You could go two ways.
One way is seek vengeance bytaking away that other person's
power right.
Write the scales right.
Someone hurt you, belittled you.
You belittle them right back.

(59:04):
We've talked about how that'swhat people are going for and
that might not be good, becausethen it's just like back and
forth rage against each other,and that might not be good
because then it's just like backand forth rage against each
other.
So instead, instead of trying totake down someone else's power,
you could just bolster your ownpower, right?
So just reading about howresearch suggests that some
people experiencepost-humiliation growth, similar

(59:37):
to post-traumatic growth, whereif someone is, if your whole
identity and status has beenannihilated, then you can find
ways to find a new sense ofpurpose, a new identity,
strengthen identity you did havebut was, you know, under threat
, or find wisdom in that.
So, you know, trying to tryingto build, build yourself back up
by thinking about, like, whatdo you value?
How do I want to show up in theworld?

(59:57):
What did they take away from me?
That's important.
And how do I just live and showup in that way, hoping that
over time the reputation, statusand external view of that
follows along eventually, right?
So someone calls you like a badperson or you're stupid or
whatever.
Like, how can you just show upin the way that you know that's

(01:00:18):
like good and saying one daypeople will see it?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:22):
Yeah, right, yeah, I think getting
really clear on the costs ofrevenge is important too.
Have you ever read or watchedthe Count of Monte Cristo?
Have you read it or have youjust watched?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:33):
it.
I read it a long time ago.
I think it was in college.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:35):
Yeah, okay, so you can correct me if
I'm wrong, but I started bywatching the newer version of it
with jim caviezel, who's one ofthe hottest men accused of
something he is thrown into adungeon for like a thousand

(01:01:02):
years.
He, you know his perpetratortakes his fiancee as his own and
the rest of the movie is allabout him seeking revenge.
And the interesting thing isthat in the new movie he gets
his revenge and he gets the girl, and he gets his riches and he

(01:01:22):
gets his son and he walks offinto the sunset and the
humiliation has been rectifiedand happy, ever, happily, ever
after.
But then I saw in french classthe old version of the movie,
which I'm pretty sure has thesame ending as the book, which
is that he takes his revenge andthen he loses the girl and he

(01:01:42):
loses the son and maybe he hashis money, but the idea is that
he has.
So, you know, he's beendisempowered and he sought his
revenge.
But through seeking revenge hetraded his soul, essentially,
and his woman wanted nothing todo with it.
And so it.

(01:02:03):
You know, it's just, and thisis important because there are,
there are economic studies thatshow that, with using game
theory, that participants willactually punish themselves in
order to punish an unfair other.
And then afterwards they don'tregret it, they feel better.
They're like this was afantastic idea.

(01:02:25):
Yeah, I walk away with lessmoney, but fuck that guy, isn't
that worth it?
It's like what, and you know.
Evolutionary speaking, again,this makes sense.
We have to protect our status,but I think people can make some
knee jerk reactions and thinkthat revenge is going to be
worth it and they actually losein the long term.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:46):
Yeah, that's really interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:48):
Yeah, I mean humiliation.
It puts you so out of controlof your emotions that our
justice system literally makesway for this, where, if you, you
are only convicted of murder ifit's premeditated, but if you
kill in the heat of passion,it's manslaughter, and that

(01:03:08):
comes with a lesser punishment,even though it's the same crime.
And the number one kind ofemotion associated with
manslaughter is anger by way ofhumiliation.
And so I wonder if emotionregulation is going to be
helpful.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:27):
Sorry, that's really interesting, I think.
I mean, we could go on and onabout this, but it seems to be
that like it might've been atsome point in our evolution like
revenge and cutting your noseto spite the face of, like just
screwing over the other person,screwing over your competitor,
might have been the best way foryou to get ahead.

(01:03:48):
But now, in our complex society, maybe it's not.
Maybe it's like no revenge isgoing to take too much.
It's going to take um too mucheffort, um, you're going to just
create another enemy, even moreenemy, make everyone else mad,
and no one actually likes whatit looks like when you take
revenge.

(01:04:08):
So try to just rise above.
Rise above the humiliation.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:04:14):
I just think it's context dependent.
Sometimes it's appropriate, but, yeah, you just want to take
the time to, you know, reallyreally think about it instead of
acting in fashion.
Yeah, but I think I think ithas really really interesting
implications if an index trauma,so, like you know, a rape or

(01:04:35):
something like that is naturallyhumiliating and how that would,
how that would make treatmentsdifferent, and that's kind of
beyond our scope, but it's, Ifeel like that's the next
frontier of research that couldbe cool.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:46):
Well, I have appreciated this because it was
making me really I've learned alot, I think I've really I
appreciate that you suggestedthis.
I I always thought humiliationwas just like a big, bigger,
extreme form of shame, but it'sa lot more complex than that and
, yeah, this is cool.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:04):
Amazing .
Well, if you don't want us tofeel publicly humiliated, then
please give us a five-starrating on Apple podcasts and
Spotify and do not leave us ahumiliatingly bad comment.
That would be terrible, andwe'll see you next week.
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