August 6, 2025 • 56 mins
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What happens when cultural expectations of family loyalty collide with the reality of narcissistic abuse? In this special episode, licensed clinical social worker Agatha Peters brings a fresh perspective to this complex intersection, drawing from her personal journey as a Nigerian-American and her professional expertise working with clients from collectivist cultures.
For those raised in communities where family honor and respect for elders are paramount values, recognizing and addressing narcissistic relationships presents unique challenges that go far beyond standard Western approaches to mental health.
We explore how narcissistic parents in collectivist cultures can weaponize community expectations, creating situations where victims not only face abuse at home but also community reinforcement of harmful dynamics. This creates a devastating cycle where victims are gaslit not just by their abuser but by entire communities who view their complaints as dishonoring family or tradition.
Most powerfully, Peters shares how becoming a mother transformed her understanding of her own experiences. This discussion offered us profound insights into healing while honoring cultural identity. Subscribe now and join the conversation about supporting loved ones through their mental health journeys.
**If you or someone you love is a victim of narcissistic abuse, book a free call with us or join the KulaMind community to get the tools, expert guidance, and peer support you need.
Resources:
- Check out Agatha Peters' book: Trapped in Their Script: Reclaim Your Life from Narcissistic Parents & Cultural Expectations
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
We are going back to a topic wetalk about a lot, but with a
very different lens, and we havea great guest for us today.
Her name is Agatha Peters.
She is a licensed clinicalsocial worker in Washington and
(00:24):
Oregon, trained in CBT,mindfulness and EMDR.
She's got a book called Trappedin their Script, written for
adult children of narcissisticparents.
So this is the topic that weare returning to, but here's the
sorry, here's the twist.
So this is for especially thosefrom collectivist cultures,
(00:47):
where family loyalty oftenovershadows individual
well-being.
So, drawing from herexperiences as a
Nigerian-Americanpsychotherapist, agatha offers
guidance on embracing one'sidentity while respecting
cultural ties.
I'm excited for this topicbecause I have a patient this is
very who is.
This is like super relevant for.
(01:07):
I'm gonna thank you so much,agatha, for coming and talking
to us about this yeah, it's sonice to be here.
Agatha Peters (01:15):
Yeah, I've been listening to your podcast, like
I told you guys this morning,and I just love it.
Now I'm gonna have to subscribeand continue through it.
I just love it so much, so,yeah, well, I hope so.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:27):
And Kibbe, this is something, this
is a topic that I feel likewould super resonate with
Kulamind kids.
So you want to talk about howcool I can help yeah, before we
dive into this super interestingconversation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:42):
I have so many questions for you, agatha,
but I just want to mention toanyone out there who are
struggling with loving someonewith narcissistic personality
disorder.
Maybe they're really affectedby narcissistic abuse or
emotional abuse in theirrelationship with their partner
or their parent or sibling.
We're here for you.
Check out Kula Mind communityK-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.
(02:05):
In our community we're teachingskills to really navigate these
mental health challenges in ourrelationships.
So we teach setting boundaries,identifying narcissism and
narcissistic abuse and theeffects on you and your mental
health and how to advocate foryourself.
So if you're interested in that, go to our website, kulamindcom
(02:27):
, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom and alsoput the link in the show notes.
But thank you for letting meannounce that.
But, agatha, can you tell us alittle bit of how you got into
this topic, like tell us alittle bit about your background
?
Agatha Peters (02:41):
Yeah, so well, I spent 14 years of my life
growing up in Nigeria, um, andtransit transitioning into the U
?
S.
The first place we landed wasOregon.
So, um, very different cultures, huge culture shock.
Um, but things were done muchdifferently than in my culture,
(03:06):
obviously.
And I got into therapy after mygosh.
Well, in college I rememberbeing around 19 or so, and my
professor at that time had said,well, you would have to check
your own stuff and your baggagefirst before you can help others
(03:27):
.
Well, you know, as you, myculture, people don't really go
to therapy.
But I thought, well, thatsounds interesting.
Like, yeah, I would have to.
It makes sense to have to doyour own work before you try to
help others.
So when I sat on the couch witha therapist that was non-black
I am black, being Nigerian Umand uh, I was looking at things
(03:52):
from a white lens, definitely,and uh, yeah, having to call out
my parents, and uh and uh itfor the first time I got, I felt
heard, but I was not ready toat all unpack.
I had no idea what therapy wasuntil that point, and she put
(04:19):
names on things that Idefinitely was not ready to
address and it took me a whileand I wondered why, up until
being well writing really untila few years ago, after my
master's, having sat with plentyof clients did I actually and
(04:39):
actually having my child?
I think having my first bornreally made me understand that
my parent is um, a narc, anarcissist and um, and I think
for a long time being.
We're in this profession like,we want to fix things, so for
(04:59):
you to tell me I think that wasone of the things is just not
being able.
You help people but you can'thelp your own parent like, or
even help yourself go throughlike how it just was really hard
, um, so I knew, for me, dealingthrough it, a lot of people and
(05:20):
I also got a lot of clientsthat were experiencing the same
sort of challenges in theirdifferent cultures that were
primarily collective.
Where there is my, yeah, myIndian clients, my, you know,
mexican, asian, you know, nameit like so many different people
(05:42):
in this sort of cultures, butwe're so obligated to family
loyalty, we're so expressed onus.
There is community that tellsyou you have to do things this
particular way and if you fallaway from that, you're doing
something wrong.
So you're doing something wrong, so you're the problem.
For the longest time I thoughtI was the problem.
(06:05):
Um, and yeah, that's how I gotto writing.
So to help people do it it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:15):
So you had experience working with a
non-black therapist and a lot oftimes we think of that as sort
of essentially problematic incertain ways because, um,
especially like white therapistsbring a lot of potential bias
but it sounds like in some waysthis was helpful to you.
What was that dynamic like?
Agatha Peters (06:33):
I think this was helpful to me.
I I think she did work thathelped me.
I think she was helpful to mein, um, my well, not addressing
my abuse, but actually, um,acknowledging maybe, or starting
to at least on, like that,having that, that blindage that
(06:56):
I had on for so long, startingto open my eyes a little bit, um
, but I, you know, being animmigrant, we're just happy to
get help Like it did not matterto me.
I know what you look like.
To be honest, that that's justI, just I was happy to get help.
(07:16):
Whatever help looked like, myinsurance covered it.
Then I just I had to pay acouple of dollars here and there
with copay and I was so young,so just just get it being in the
presence of help.
I think we look at thingsdifferently, I don't you know,
maybe in that sense of I mightbe different from, for, maybe, a
(07:36):
Black American that does notcome from that same background.
I hope that makes sense of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:43):
Yeah, no, it's just interesting to
think about, like how, how thesedynamics can unfold, because in
some ways I could see how itcould be helpful to kind of say,
like here's, you know, in thisculture, that behavior, you know
, looks so it's such a contrastthat, um, we can see that
contrast more clearly, like andmaybe this behavior isn't quite
(08:06):
appropriate, or, you know,compassionate or whatever yeah,
and at the other time at theother set.
It might be harder for thattherapist then to understand
that collect kind ofcollectivist culture absolutely.
Agatha Peters (08:15):
Yeah, I see what you mean there.
Yeah, from in, in my culturallens.
Yeah, I thought, well, you haveno idea what I'm going through,
right, like there is that.
You know complete differencesthere, but my goodness, it felt
good to be seen for the firsttime Like someone even seeing me
(08:38):
and seeing the struggle andpain and it not being so much in
my head anymore pain and it notbeing so much in my head
anymore.
I think she used certainlanguages that were probably
triggering to me as a Blackindividual, like that was the
hard thing there, but nothingthat she did intentionally and
as a therapist, you know.
But I think then versus now, Iknow what I need from a
(09:13):
therapist and I did try seeingactually another white therapist
.
I live in Oregon.
There's not much options there.
Another white therapist lastand actually doing my writing
process Um, and I just knew Ididn't.
I was not that same 18, 19 yearold then and at this point I've
(09:34):
lived in America for so long and, um, it just brought back a lot
of things for me that I Icouldn't really it.
It just felt different, it feltvery different.
So I gave it at least eightsessions, like I would with my,
so my clients keep going, causeshe was so skilled to her own.
Her expertise was narcissismand an EMDR, which is exactly
(10:00):
what I needed.
But I, it was really hard forme and it also partly why I
wrote the book for therapiststoo, to see how to help their
clients through this differentlenses, cause there's just yeah,
it was hard to connect with herin that way, which I know she's
(10:21):
phenomenal and does a wonderfuljob, but that cultural part was
really difficult.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:27):
Yeah, what translated cross-culturally
between you and your therapist.
Like what did your therapist oryou identify as like the
effects of having, you know,growing up with narcissism.
Like what did you notice waslike something you were
struggling with yeah.
Agatha Peters (10:47):
So I think for me , the huge thing there was.
First, my narc was so bad thatthere was a lot of suicide for
me, like suicidal mutations, um,we talk about the spectrum from
here all the way.
I yep, um, just individual wasin like this huge, um, uh part
(11:13):
that it affected my mentalhealth a great deal, um, where I
would, yeah, um, just really uh, think of ending my life so
frequently.
So in so many ways that firsttherapist opened my eyes, but it
was going through that.
(11:33):
So that opened my and I thinkeven with this therapist I saw
last year, I kept needingvalidation, which was an odd
thing too, because even thoughI'm in the field, I know all the
things, but the culture is thatpiece of it is your fault
constantly, right, like, thereis this guilt, there is all
(11:56):
those things.
I kept needing validation.
I would even my mentor thatI've known for over 20 years and
, sorry, I've known for um, overa decade and um, she's been a
therapist for 40 years has evenvalidated me.
My gosh, you're not wrong, thisperson is the worst of worst,
like, but it still wasn't enough.
(12:17):
I'm like you're saying thatbecause you know me.
So, um, yeah, it's the suicidalpart.
I you know that was a hugething to not know.
It's not, it's just not adepression or something that is
causing this, but more soenvironmental um and um.
The individual that I was withat the time, um, yeah, it was.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (12:43):
It was not good the what was the kind
of ideation a result of thisperson?
So it's so.
It sounds like they would.
They would behave really poorlyand then blame everything on
you, and so it's kind ofprogressive devout like
degradation of your self-esteemand yeah, but also the community
(13:07):
aspect of it.
Agatha Peters (13:08):
There was so so known in the community.
So you, you know, when you dohave a narc who is a parent or a
guardian, the mask is on.
In the communities, they arethe most like, they're better,
(13:29):
they're essentially perfect inthese people's like.
They show up, they're great, soyou want to see that you also.
That also makes you feel likeit's your fault, you're doing
something wrong, like, why arethey not showing me that much
love?
Why are they not showing up forme in that way?
Why are they, you know?
So that constant, you know, andthey also tell you it's your
(13:50):
fault.
So there is that you don't loveme like these strangers.
And then you know, um, you'realso confirming that.
You get that confirmation athome too, that, yeah, um, this
is all you Um, so there is thatconstant.
And then the communities also,it was almost just coming
(14:10):
together and like, yeah, you,you know you do bad things
because this pain to your prayer, you do, you know, feeding a
lot of lies that were not there.
But again, they needed that.
Um, this person is would bedescribed as a vulnerable
narcissist.
So, um, they needed that.
There's a lot of that sadnessand just, you know, um kind of
(14:35):
thing and, um, it's poor me.
I, you know I'm going throughthis, a lot of that.
Um, so then you know, thenyou're getting calls, or you're
being pulled away in meetings,or you know in gathering, like
what why?
Making them cry when I was,like I wasn't aware that they
were crying, I think.
(14:55):
You know um.
So, yeah, there is a lot ofthat um, that just fed that.
You know um, narc, in that way,um, so so much blaming, not
just from that person, thatindividual, but the community,
the.
You know it.
For a child, it would be likestepping into a school ground
(15:19):
knowing you're gonna face yourbullies, right, um, and this is
why, again, it's so hard withinthese cultures, because we're,
we're seen as a group.
So, and when you're, when yourguardian or parents say
something about you, it must betrue, right, like that's when
(15:40):
you go to the hospital and youtake your kid to see a doctor,
they ask hey mom, hey dad,what's good?
So it must be true.
So that's in so many ways, Idon't blame them because that's
what's, that's what's set out,that's that's what they you know
, even though it's completefalse, but that's what um they,
(16:01):
they have to believe, um.
And then there is also therespect of the elders, the.
You know all the things thatcome up and you just yeah yeah,
I have this urge to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (16:14):
I'm like trying to figure out how to
make this a more bite-sizedquestion, because I kind of want
, like a description of Nigerianculture, like what was it like
growing up?
What is the day-to-day like,who are, who are all these
people that define the familygroup?
Agatha Peters (16:29):
I feel like, you know, day-to-day growing up is
just sort of, you know, you haveaunties, which is very common
in a lot of those collectivecultures.
A lot of people are auntieseven though they don't birth you
, but you know that form ofrespect a lot of people are.
So again, that community right,like if you're my auntie, I can
(16:51):
come to you or I can.
You know, there's beauty in alot of that.
There is, you know, you havepeople that are always there.
You're not alone, unless you'remade to feel, you know there
can be a beauty.
It can be beautiful in so manyways.
But when it gets problematic iswhen we have situations like
(17:20):
narcissism.
And that's yeah, with cousinsyou grow up with, you know, you
might your neighbors, you canjust walk in wherever and and
all that, um, and I, honestly,when growing up in Nigeria, my,
my narc, wasn't a problem.
Then it was in, yeah, it was inthe US.
(17:43):
Um, I went through other abuseback home but that was not yeah,
um, yeah, not my narc, and Ididn't really, you know, grew up
with them in that sort ofdynamic Like you would think, a
parent, you know, sort ofsituation, but, um, it was the
(18:07):
year that it really when I.
And then there is this culturalexpectations where you have to
make it, you have to, you know,there, you know, you also had
the opportunity to come.
So how do you feel?
So then, which we all strive todo, and when you immigrants,
(18:27):
you want to do so much, but thenthat also can be a burden, and
even more so when you'reimmigrants, you want to do so
much, but then that also can bea burden, and even more so when
you are dealing with someonethat is a narcissist.
They can use that and exportthat in so many ways.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:43):
How does narcissism in parents show up
differently across cultures?
I resonate with a lot of whatyou're saying and I don't know
the specifics, but I, you know,and I come from a Chinese
culture where it was, you know,like the elders, the parents,
you know, you listen to them nomatter what.
(19:04):
And I was just having, like theother day, having a
conversation with a familymember about you know, the um,
uh, a situation where someonewho was older, um, was like
hurtful to the younger person,like said something hurtful, and
the attitude was like well,they're the older ones like, you
know, it was fine, you know,just you apologize, right, like
(19:27):
as a younger person, you, youdeal with that, that.
So it's like even thinkingabout narcissism and right now
in america, like we're talkingall over the place about how
they're narcissistic parents, um, but I wonder if it does it
look different if it's in adifferent culture, where where
narcissism in parents and olderpeople is like accepted, right,
(19:50):
like right, like the hierarchy,the entitlement, like they, they
have entitlement, right, likejust from being a year or two
older.
Agatha Peters (19:58):
I was meant to say auntie, like this idea of
like you're already all right,they do, they are special if
they're like older and yourparents.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:05):
So it's like is it, does it look different if
it's in a different culture, oris it like the same, but they,
we just don't like it as muchhere.
Agatha Peters (20:13):
Well, I think it does look different and I, in my
book, I really dive into.
Well, first of all, is itnarcissism, because there are
different mental disorders andyou know what that looks like.
And then, second of all, ifwe're dealing with cultures,
that really we think aboutparenting styles.
There is authoritarian parentsand authoritative I think.
(20:34):
Between those two, we think ofan authoritarian, which is much
more.
You know, they're strict, youknow, but so you know, this sort
of styles, I think you know,makes a huge difference in these
cultures.
You know, a lot of us in thosecultures are raised by
authoritarian households Likeyou.
(20:55):
They already set up your path.
You're going to be a lawyer,you're going to be a doctor,
you're going to be I was adoctor, you're being a doctor,
you know.
But why is that true?
Where is that coming from?
Is it coming from entitlement?
Is it coming from I want you tobe better?
Is it coming from I want you tobe better?
Is it coming, you know?
So this you know.
And if you do not meet thoseexpectations, are you still?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:17):
loved Right.
Agatha Peters (21:17):
Are you still cared for.
And you know, when I do look atthese cultures in and you know
some of that can be even abusedlike that we well, it is abuse
not just in Western culturesthat we see the spanking and all
of this stuff is added with alot of these collective cultures
(21:39):
and I think it's important tonote that the fact that it's
just we don't have, you know,you say, go to your room, there
might be five people in the roomplaying.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:49):
There is no, go to your room.
Agatha Peters (21:56):
There is just, we spank you and you kind of.
You know there is no takeawaytoys.
Well, I play outside.
So what do you mean, you know?
So that that's the layers ofwhere those hash punishments
come from.
Um, in those sort of communitiesis how I um, I how I look at it
, but with that authoritarianstyle, what I do see is it tends
to deviate, just deviates a bit.
(22:18):
Or, you know, they get lesseras the kids grow up.
You know your mom is notcalling well, I don't know, but
your, you know most moms are notcalling you in those same
styles saying did you becomethis, did you do this?
You know most moms are notcalling you in those same styles
saying did you become this, didyou do this?
You know the rules are stillnot sort of rigid.
As you grow up, they in factget lessened.
(22:38):
They now and that's thedifference right between when
you think of the narc and theextension of me you know it
doesn't continue through that,so that's you know I talk about
through that um, so that's youknow I talk about that even more
in depth.
And then um, in the book, butit doesn't, um, it doesn't
(23:00):
follow you throughout, uh, sortof adulthood and I think that's
the main way of sort ofdifferentiating it.
But then also um cause I've hadto figure it out myself.
But um, also in this culture, isthose punishment.
How are you being punished?
Are you just you left a platein a you know on the sink and
(23:25):
you're being burnt, or you'rebeing hit in the face, like it's
?
You know?
You've seen extreme hashpunishment.
The comparison of you're notgood enough.
Or this is the constantbelittling of the individual,
which I know there's a spectrumwith all of that.
(23:47):
But those true heart narcs,they don't just don't it's.
They use that culture as a sortof a source of getting more and
more of that.
So you put a narcissist in thatkind of cultures, like in these
it's.
It can be really detrimental.
For a lot of these um clientsof mine, it's yeah, because,
(24:11):
again, if you're whooped, it'sokay.
They don't like you use.
Did they use a belt and abottle or or you know it's.
Once a child says, oh, what's?
The child years it's okay andyour parent is right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:24):
You just kind of quiet this, you know, not
even um, you don't want to openup to that adult anymore um,
it's interesting, like, evenwith asian clients it's it's um,
especially when I even me,growing up in the us, but I will
have clients who are from eastasia and you know, especially in
(24:47):
narcissism, we always, you know, talk about like, oh, the
narcissistic parents want you tobe successful and they just
want you to be on top andachieve.
And if you, if you don't reachthat success, they're super
disappointed in you.
They stop loving you.
It's very conditional.
But if you talk to some of myAsian clients, or even how I was
raised, it's like they go yeah,of course it's normal for your
(25:10):
parents to want you to be thebest and get straight A's and be
a perfect violin player, and ifyou're not, of course you're
not as worthy and of course yourparents won't love you as much.
And I'm like, okay, is is.
Is then the whole culturalbelief narcissistic?
Or we just we just believe in,like, loving your child, no
matter what, and that's not howit is.
(25:32):
Like, how do you deal with,like that, what you said about
if they don't achieve or theydon't meet those standards?
They're, they're loved still?
Agatha Peters (25:40):
you see, I've seen client.
You know you bring that up.
I, you know I had a client asum uh, from asia as well.
That was sort of dealing withthe same Vietnam.
Yeah, I think that was it.
It was sort of dealing withthis.
You know the thing with us, too,when you grew up within NARC,
(26:02):
there is a it's almost as thoughwe there is this perfectionism
that we it's, and that's thehard thing is the stuff that
they implement in us.
It kind of works.
There's this forcefulness ofyou have to do so and you're
(26:23):
constantly proving love, right,like there is this console it.
You are, you don't stop youreducation, you keep going and
you keep going and it neverfeels like it's ever enough,
right, and but then the thing isyou don't really get that sort
of love like the other even, infact never stops If there is
(26:46):
your saying the wheel keepsgoing on and going on and going
on.
The difference there is in theother home that you described.
You hit that accomplishment.
You're now a doctor, you'reloved, you're praised, you've
got everything.
The other one you could be adoctor.
Heck, you could be a doctor.
You could be an astronaut, youcould be all the degrees and you
(27:06):
still did not hit that Right.
So it's never enough, can youspeak to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:19):
So I feel like I have a cluster of
questions around this point.
But, um, it sounds likesomething happened when you
moved to the united states wherethe abuse actually intensified.
So kind of the first part of myquestion is was there something
I know you had said?
Like, now you're in the UnitedStates, you're expected to
succeed.
So it sounds like that was partof it.
Agatha Peters (27:38):
The community part too, I think the community,
because you left you feel likethe lucky one In some ways.
It's like you are this, you'relucky.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:51):
So how can?
Agatha Peters (27:52):
you have a problem.
That's the only thing you haveis your parent was hash.
Okay, like you're in america begrateful, okay.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (28:02):
So there's this immediate
expectation of like you're notgoing to waste this opportunity.
You're lucky, you have noexcuse now.
Yeah, um, did your, did you,did your narc pick?
Agatha Peters (28:13):
it was that the behavior that they kind of oh my
gosh, I brought you to Americathat was all I heard like I
brought you to America.
So there is this huge paybackto this.
Yeah, I brought you here.
You know I was meant to do allkinds of things because I
(28:33):
brought.
They brought me here yeah yeah,it's interesting.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (28:36):
I feel like I've heard from so many
like stand-up comedian acts.
When they are, when they haveimmigrant parents, they'll make
that point like I'm such adisappointment.
I'm a stand-up comedian when myyou know, my parents were
immigrants here, so that wasjust I.
I was wondering if you couldit's.
It must be an interestingexperience to come from such a
(28:57):
different culture and then beplaced in american culture,
which is so individualistic andspecific and now you're dealing
with a dual cultural reality canyou kind of speak to what
that's like for you and whatyou've experienced from the
patients.
Agatha Peters (29:09):
I think, for me personally, I love it because I
get to pick and choose what Iwant to accept in my home and
what is not.
You know how I raise my kids, Ithink you know I'm also exposed
with more education in the wayof emotional intelligence and
all these other things.
That I'm not that they aren't,you know.
(29:30):
Yeah, it's just in a differentlens where I can see the mental
health piece of well, if peopleare beat, this is what happens,
you know.
So you get to choosedifferently and there is,
fortunately yes, I am.
I do consider myself, becauseof all of that, in fact, lucky.
(29:51):
Now, does being lucky mean thatyou don't cry at night and you
don't suffer through differentmental?
Yes, you know, the thing iswith the collective cultures and
individualistic there, sincewe're such a group, when one
(30:17):
makes it, that means we all makeit.
So therefore, we all also havethis responsibility of what are
you doing for your, for us.
The all Um and that's that'salso just how to it can feed a
narcissist in that sort of formtoo, where it's like well,
(30:41):
listen, I watched you when youwere five years old, a long time
ago.
You owe me $500 that you havein sets, so sort of oh, I did
this one thing, so it can feellike you constantly are working
(31:02):
for a community, and so I've hadto sort of embrace both to know
.
Okay, this individualistic partis, it's okay to enjoy the
fruit of your own labor and it'sokay to figure out how many
people you want that fruit to goto, or maybe just you and
you're the, the, the humans inyour life, um, so, just yeah,
(31:28):
navigate that a little bitdifferently, okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:33):
I'm curious when you're working with clients
and you're thinking aboutyourself and navigating people
in your family with narcissism,do you I want to say, suggest,
because we don't suggest but doyou do different kind of work
with people who are incollectivist cultures versus,
(31:56):
like American, individualcultures?
Yeah, because you know, maybeI'm so steeped into the
Instagram world and it's allabout like, oh, do you have a
toxic narcissistic parent?
Well, don't talk to themanymore.
Agatha Peters (32:09):
Get them out of your life and I'm like, well,
that's kind of hard in theseother cultures.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:15):
I mean even some clients I've had have are
really hesitant to even say orthat their parent was abusive,
not to even mention what apersonality disorder is.
They've been like oh, that's ofcourse, they're entitled,
they're, they're my mother.
Agatha Peters (32:30):
They're my father , so how?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:31):
do you work differently with victims of
narcissistic abuse fromdifferent cultures?
Agatha Peters (32:38):
Yeah, no, it's great that you bring that up.
That was me too, when I wassitting on that couch when I was
, you know, 18, 19.
Like, how dare you?
I want to come across this and,just like you know, fight you
for this.
This, you know, because thereis that protective culture.
Like we're protect, there'sprotection of our family,
there's protection of ourculture, there's pride in that
(32:58):
and in so many ways it's abeautiful thing.
Like, yes, just like Americanshave patriots, like we have, we
also love our culture and youknow it's where we came from, is
where we are.
Like there's a huge, you know,honoring culture.
That is, it's just, it's partof us.
(33:20):
So to say that that's wrong,it's so difficult, like to, and
then you also, you're okay, well, this person had it that way
too.
They, they experienced this.
You know.
You know I, you know I went tothe home and your mom was
(33:41):
spanking, oh, doing this ordoing that, but again,
narcissist they.
It's when the doors are closedthat you really see who they are
.
It's not they might've beenspanking them in a nice way when
you were there.
So you know how I really withculture is.
I, I try my best to understand,like you know, I, I, I, from
(34:04):
their perspective.
First of all, I think I get twotype of clients that come in.
One that already like yep,full-on narcissist.
This is the person that Iexperienced this with them.
They've read about it, they,they spent extensive amount of,
they're usually very educationaland, uh, educated and um,
really um, I don't know, maybethey're already parents too and
(34:27):
they're like this is.
I just don't want this tohappen to me.
I'm now in a relationship withsomeone like this how do I co
-parent with them All of thesethings?
They've really seen it.
They're starting to like whoa,this is happening.
And then there's another onethat might come, another client
(34:56):
that might take so long.
It could take weeks and weeksand weeks of trying to help them
to really get there, versus menaming it but helping them name
it, cause I know what that feelslike when it's named from my
lens but helping them name it umand helping them get there to
to identify um, because in somany ways it's so normalized for
them that it's it feels likeyeah, and then it's often with I
(35:18):
have to be perfect, I, you know, I am the problem and um, I'm
dealing with depression andanxiety and I, I walk around
like shells, right, like there'sall these layers, um.
So, helping them understand,you know, until you see what it
is, it's going to be really hardfor us to get to that healing
(35:41):
place because you're stillwalking in.
And these are why thesecultures are so hard, because
you can have, for example, anIndian that is still living with
several family members in thehome.
So when you say, cut off, cutoff and go where, like you know,
(36:01):
like they can't, we'll setboundaries.
There is no boundaries.
They come in my room wheneverit's just like, yeah, like, what
, like, what do I do?
So I think, for folks, when theystart having that breakthrough
is actually understanding.
Okay, well, see the pattern.
Let's start to see.
Let's sit with mom and see whatthat feels like, just for 15
(36:26):
minutes.
Then let's sit with someoneelse and see what that feels
like, and we just start to andall of a sudden they're like oh,
it feels different, Like shemakes me anxious, she makes me,
you know, tense, she, she, youknow.
So they announce her andidentify the signs without me
saying anything, but they'restarting to to get there on
(36:49):
their own.
Um, and then when I, you know,it might be when I sit with a
stranger then I start to wonderwhat are they thinking about?
Well, probably because that's,you know, yeah, comes from the
narc.
But they're like what are theythinking about?
Do they like me?
Do they not like me?
I'm like, oh, you're stilldoing gymnastics here in your
(37:11):
head with someone else, but howdoes that person makes you feel
externally versus you know whatgoes on in your head?
Okay, much more calmer, okay,those kinds of stuff.
So we want to find ways that wecan get more of that happy
medium, like that space ofhappiness, and eventually you
might get to that place whereokay, maybe I just needed this
(37:34):
family to get reach my goal ofbeing, you know, whatever that
goal is before I can get my ownplace.
But I do know that this is nothealthy for me, again, without
me having to do much, but justsort of leading them in that way
, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:54):
This.
What you said about boundariesis exactly kind of what I'm
facing with a patient who knowsthat she has a parent that's a
narcissist.
But I think, because of thatparent's behavior and also the
culture, like she's in thisposition of being everybody's
go-to person for help,everybody's in her business,
everybody, you know, has theseexpectations of her.
(38:16):
She feels like she has to beeverything for everybody else
and this is know, has theseexpectations of her.
She feels like she has to beeverything for everybody else
and this is like something shewants out of Um, but, you know,
without alienating herself fromthe family.
And I guess I'm just wondering,like how, once you've
recognized right, like yes,there's a narcissist here and
yes, there are kind of culturalforces that almost expand or
(38:41):
like compound the influence ofthe narcissist, like how do you
set boundaries within thatstructure?
Agatha Peters (38:51):
Oh, my goodness, this boundary stuff, it's so
it's such a hard situation.
I tell you not stuff it's, it'sso it's such a hard situation.
I tell you not.
I mean, I kid you not, becauseeven for me I still struggle
with it here and here and there.
Um, but I rethink my mentalhealth like, is it worth those.
You know what you know.
But I think, um, for thatclient is to determine what are
(39:13):
their goals, what are theirlong-term?
Do they still want to sit inthat mud and feel so destructive
?
Like are they okay with that?
And if they're okay with that,then just sort of help them
through it.
Like it might just be that wedo some deep breathing and we
work through the anxiety and wetake breaks and we walk outside
and then we come back in andthen we, you know, we distract
(39:36):
ourselves with cooking for thefamily, or then we, you know, we
distract ourselves with cookingfor the family or, like you
know, get occupied with otherthings in the home.
That doesn't make us feel soanxious or depressed or whatnot.
But they have to be the one tochoose that.
We can't choose that for them.
I mean, as much as we hate tosee them go through it, but we
(39:56):
don't want to choose it for them.
And if it is, I don't reallylike this.
I kind of want to go and Idon't.
I don't know where to start.
Okay, what seems feasible foryou?
Like what?
Where?
Where do we start?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:11):
Yeah, I mean this.
This reminds me a lot of workwith East Asian clients and
other kind of clients where youeven we're talking to them about
their values or their careerdesires, right, and then you go.
What do you want for your?
Agatha Peters (40:29):
life, what do you ?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:30):
what do you, what do you value?
And the way we want to do itwith our individualistic clients
from America, it's like what doyou want as an individual?
You know, besides what yourparents want or society wants,
what do you really want?
But with these clients who arefrom other cultures, they go.
I just want my parents to behappy.
Agatha Peters (40:51):
Love me.
Yeah, yeah, I want them to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:53):
I just want to.
I will be a doctor, becausethat's what makes them happy.
Yes, yeah, it's like what doyou want?
Oh, I want to make them happy.
So how, what?
What do you do when you havethose clients who they're?
What they want is to make theirparents happy and yet their
parents have a mental illness orpersonality disorder that makes
them never?
Agatha Peters (41:13):
happy.
I mean, I tell you, it took mewhat over decades to I mean a
decade to like um it it, untilthey reached that point of this.
Is, you know, you still talkingto someone that has had a
master's, that went to all thethings that you know, that still
wasn't enough.
(41:33):
A professor, they couldn't tellme nothing.
I would.
You couldn't do anything thatcould have prepared me to what.
Leave no, or do whatever.
No, I was not in that mindset.
I was not ready for that.
I did not want that.
I think for me, what trumped allof that was my kids.
(41:55):
You know, I think for your,remember these.
You know when you're hoping it.
You know, sometimes we don't doit for ourselves, but we have
to if they have someone else.
So I'm just sort of like theaddicts, you know, like maybe
it's there, is there is a childto do it for, maybe it's there,
(42:16):
you know.
You know they're doing it forsome, because I could have
probably stayed in that mod, asI say, for so long and maybe be
okay with that, because,whatever, even though the mod
was literally destroying me andin fact I, you know, who knows
if I would still be here, butthat's how terrible, terrible,
(42:37):
like how hard it is to leavegroups and those cultural
expectations.
Um, so I, I, I empathize withmy clients in a way, like if I
couldn't be ballsy enough afterhaving you knowing all of these
things, understanding that and Istill want it to be so much,
(43:01):
you know, I still wanted love,in whatever form.
It looked like, you know, evenif it looked like control, even
if it looked like you know allof these different things, all
of these different things, thenwhy do we just think you know
we're not God?
(43:22):
You just don't sit in a couchand all of a sudden think that
person will get thereimmediately.
It might take a while, but Ithink again, it's sort of like
that.
What do they do?
The ice cream thing where youlike lick and you're like, oh,
it feels good, it's the hold onto and that feeling of good it's
.
That was basically what I dowith the sit with someone else
(43:43):
and see what that feels like.
Eventually, when you start towant good things you're going to
, you know, you you start tofeel seen, have, you know, be
heard.
All of those things start tocome.
Maybe it's building thosedifferent communities, what that
looks like, finding a communitystill within your community
(44:04):
that still gets it Right, and Ithink for us sometimes we forget
that there's still people inthese communities that can
relate to us in this way.
So finding that and, um, Ithink can, can go a long way as
well.
Um, you know, if you're notready, I think I lost your
(44:27):
questions there somehow, but Ihope I answered it, did I?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:33):
can I ask how, where you've ended up
with this, have you cut off therelationship or do you just
approach it in a different way?
Agatha Peters (44:41):
Well, for me.
You know I'm there wheneverthey need me, but I let it where
they need me.
I don't go seeking, I thinkbefore I was seeking it, so much
so and that just I think thatgives them more control in my
(45:01):
brain.
I don't know, like it probably.
But where you know when I sayI'm there whenever they need me
is if you know, if they all of asudden called me and said they
needed help, which oftentimesdoesn't happen, thankfully.
But yeah, I lead with that andI don't know it's not for them.
(45:36):
Being a vulnerable narcissist,it is really hard for them to
hear me as a therapist.
I think that's also hardbecause I there, there are ways
that I I talk and maybe it'salmost sort of triggering in a
way.
So they don't want to hear allof that and I don't let them.
(46:00):
I can say, okay, might have atwo-minute conversation, not a
one-hour conversation about ohmy gosh, you know this, or you
know just all the you knowterrible things that has
happened to their life, thatnever changes.
And yeah, I might not sit forthat and dwell with this.
(46:25):
You know, part of me would wantto fix it.
Or how do I help?
Because that's what we want todo.
We want to help.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:34):
How?
How did becoming a motherchange your relationship to this
, like, how do you think aboutthis in your parenting or the
way you were raised?
Um, yeah, how did becoming amom?
Agatha Peters (46:48):
influence your thinking.
I think you know when you saythat you, my gosh, I had yeah,
I'm going to try not to beemotional here, because I had my
little human and for the firsttime I understood what love like
I had my partner and I happilymarried for over a decade um,
(47:13):
the love of my life.
But I really truly it.
Just it felt easy.
Like it felt easy and theydidn't have to do anything other
than exist.
Like really, it was just easy.
And I don't expect them to everdo anything other than really
(47:36):
exist and live the life you'resupposed to or whatever that
means for them while I guidethem through this whatever life.
But it felt easy.
And I remember needing my narcwhen I just had a baby and I
(47:58):
said, well, I never asked youfor anything.
Can you do this one thing forme?
Just watch him for a day?
So I don't know.
And that's when I also realizedthat the love I have for my I
could never, never.
You know that that yeah.
So when I say mine is likepretty high up there, pretty,
(48:20):
since, yeah, it just theyweren't able to do it, they
couldn't sacrifice a day.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but just wow, I feel
like, that's when you had aturning point, too is when you
had a son.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:38):
So yeah, I mean, we could tolerate so much
abuse I guess for us sometimes,or just like take it in and then
, when you see it, eithertowards you or towards the kid,
and yeah, you know, like it just, you just have a new
perspective.
When you step back and go, oh,I used to be that kid and I got
(49:02):
this kind of treatment, or howcould someone look at me at that
, that age, and do all thethings that I experienced?
Right, it just, it just changesyour perspective in this
interesting ways and yeah, itjust makes some things a little
bit clearer of like wow, yeah,treat a kid like that.
Like yeah, I would never do thatto my son or yeah, yeah, the
(49:24):
same as me, that's.
Agatha Peters (49:25):
I thought, you know, I to me I almost looked at
it with in a different way forthem to be able to sort of learn
how to parent again, which issuch an odd thing to think of.
I'm going to give you thischance it will be my second to
(49:47):
do it right this time.
Well, did they fail so big like?
It was like yeah, yeah, and Ikept trying, I kept trying, I
kept trying everything I could,but they just they weren't able,
they just didn't care.
(50:07):
I don't think they.
It just you know, my kiddowould cry and they would bring
out a camera to record them anddo something about it.
Yeah, it just yeah, to laughabout it later or laugh about it
during the recording.
oh my god, yeah, I know it'sintense.
(50:33):
It is intense, it is Yep, soyeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:40):
I'm glad you I mean it sounds like
you have figured out how to setsome boundaries and kind of been
able to say to yourself like Iwill communicate to the extent
that it aligns with my valuesand that's it.
Agatha Peters (50:57):
I think embracing both cultures helped me a lot,
and then, I think, also mypartner, like you know, and I
also got to experience whatbeing you know, being having a
healthy parent was like throughhis own or in that little way,
(51:17):
like people make sacrifices.
Oh, you do this.
You just show up and just lovethem and care for them.
Oh, wow, this is no wonder he'ssuch a well put together.
Um, yeah, this is, this is nice, um, so it's not.
It's not so cultural Humanbeings can actually, you know,
(51:38):
my, my husband, is Nigerian,american as well, um, but has a
very loving parent.
Um, just, you know, both hismom and dad, dad passed now is
just really just amazing, truly,is Um so seeing parenting in
that sort of land.
Sometimes you just don't get tosee when you are in a
(52:00):
relationship or grew up with anarc, you just don't get to see
what healthiness looks like andunderstanding that culture can
still exist and we% withoutaccepting that abuse that you
know we don't have to.
So I think he helped me a lotand also it was affecting our
(52:30):
relationships Like this.
You know he also wants to fixthings Like you know we can.
Wants to fix things Like youknow we can't.
We can't fix this person, um,and it's hurting you and it
hurts.
It hurt him to peel me off thefloor, yeah, so yeah, it's like
(52:52):
this is not okay, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:55):
Well, it's awesome to see someone
who's survived this and likelearn to thrive through it and
and really kind of get a handleon it and their own sense of
wellness and boundaries and beable to help others.
Um, it sounds like you wentthrough a hell of a time for a
lot of years, Woo.
Agatha Peters (53:12):
Yeah, yep, that's why I chose the profession.
Yep, that's why I chose theprofession.
We all do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:32):
We want to help others too, in however
way possible not to feel thesame pain we've had to endure
and feel and that's not okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:36):
Yeah Well, I don't have any more questions,
kimmy, do you?
No, I think this has been great.
I'd love to hear more aboutyour book and how people can
find your work.
Agatha Peters (53:42):
Well, my book thank you, Dr Kibi, for asking
my book is on Amazon andeverywhere.
Books are sold online andreally it just dives into
exactly what we talked about,but even more in depth, of you
know, in these cultures, how doyou separate, how do you
(54:04):
distinguish and really trulyknow a narcissist?
And if you do have a narcissist, how can you get through it and
the other side, and and um, orlive with them?
So, this book, how do you youknow, and also helping
therapists understand that,especially the ones in this in
(54:25):
Western lands, um, yeah, howpeople in collective cultures
are going through thisexperiences.
So, um, yeah, you can get thebook anywhere.
Books are sold online and reachme through my um website.
Uh, beautiful sunshinetherapycom.
That's where I'm at.
(54:46):
The name of my site isbeautiful sunshine therapy, and
I have an Instagram page too.
Amazing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (54:52):
Well, thank you All those in the show
notes so thank you so much forthis has been such a fascinating
talk and topic.
Um so really grateful to havehad you on.
Um, yeah and yeah.
Thank you, guys, nice to meetyou and little helpers.
If, if you loved ourconversation, give us a five
(55:12):
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(55:34):
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(55:55):
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(56:15):
such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
We are going back to a topic wetalk about a lot, but with a
very different lens, and we havea great guest for us today.
Her name is Agatha Peters.
She is a licensed clinicalsocial worker in Washington and
(00:24):
Oregon, trained in CBT,mindfulness and EMDR.
She's got a book called Trappedin their Script, written for
adult children of narcissisticparents.
So this is the topic that weare returning to, but here's the
sorry, here's the twist.
So this is for especially thosefrom collectivist cultures,
(00:47):
where family loyalty oftenovershadows individual
well-being.
So, drawing from herexperiences as a
Nigerian-Americanpsychotherapist, agatha offers
guidance on embracing one'sidentity while respecting
cultural ties.
I'm excited for this topicbecause I have a patient this is
very who is.
This is like super relevant for.
(01:07):
I'm gonna thank you so much,agatha, for coming and talking
to us about this yeah, it's sonice to be here.
Agatha Peters (01:15):
Yeah, I've been listening to your podcast, like
I told you guys this morning,and I just love it.
Now I'm gonna have to subscribeand continue through it.
I just love it so much, so,yeah, well, I hope so.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:27):
And Kibbe, this is something, this
is a topic that I feel likewould super resonate with
Kulamind kids.
So you want to talk about howcool I can help yeah, before we
dive into this super interestingconversation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:42):
I have so many questions for you, agatha,
but I just want to mention toanyone out there who are
struggling with loving someonewith narcissistic personality
disorder.
Maybe they're really affectedby narcissistic abuse or
emotional abuse in theirrelationship with their partner
or their parent or sibling.
We're here for you.
Check out Kula Mind communityK-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.
(02:05):
In our community we're teachingskills to really navigate these
mental health challenges in ourrelationships.
So we teach setting boundaries,identifying narcissism and
narcissistic abuse and theeffects on you and your mental
health and how to advocate foryourself.
So if you're interested in that, go to our website, kulamindcom
(02:27):
, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom and alsoput the link in the show notes.
But thank you for letting meannounce that.
But, agatha, can you tell us alittle bit of how you got into
this topic, like tell us alittle bit about your background
?
Agatha Peters (02:41):
Yeah, so well, I spent 14 years of my life
growing up in Nigeria, um, andtransit transitioning into the U
?
S.
The first place we landed wasOregon.
So, um, very different cultures, huge culture shock.
Um, but things were done muchdifferently than in my culture,
(03:06):
obviously.
And I got into therapy after mygosh.
Well, in college I rememberbeing around 19 or so, and my
professor at that time had said,well, you would have to check
your own stuff and your baggagefirst before you can help others
(03:27):
.
Well, you know, as you, myculture, people don't really go
to therapy.
But I thought, well, thatsounds interesting.
Like, yeah, I would have to.
It makes sense to have to doyour own work before you try to
help others.
So when I sat on the couch witha therapist that was non-black
I am black, being Nigerian Umand uh, I was looking at things
(03:52):
from a white lens, definitely,and uh, yeah, having to call out
my parents, and uh and uh itfor the first time I got, I felt
heard, but I was not ready toat all unpack.
I had no idea what therapy wasuntil that point, and she put
(04:19):
names on things that Idefinitely was not ready to
address and it took me a whileand I wondered why, up until
being well writing really untila few years ago, after my
master's, having sat with plentyof clients did I actually and
(04:39):
actually having my child?
I think having my first bornreally made me understand that
my parent is um, a narc, anarcissist and um, and I think
for a long time being.
We're in this profession like,we want to fix things, so for
(04:59):
you to tell me I think that wasone of the things is just not
being able.
You help people but you can'thelp your own parent like, or
even help yourself go throughlike how it just was really hard
, um, so I knew, for me, dealingthrough it, a lot of people and
(05:20):
I also got a lot of clientsthat were experiencing the same
sort of challenges in theirdifferent cultures that were
primarily collective.
Where there is my, yeah, myIndian clients, my, you know,
mexican, asian, you know, nameit like so many different people
(05:42):
in this sort of cultures, butwe're so obligated to family
loyalty, we're so expressed onus.
There is community that tellsyou you have to do things this
particular way and if you fallaway from that, you're doing
something wrong.
So you're doing something wrong, so you're the problem.
For the longest time I thoughtI was the problem.
(06:05):
Um, and yeah, that's how I gotto writing.
So to help people do it it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:15):
So you had experience working with a
non-black therapist and a lot oftimes we think of that as sort
of essentially problematic incertain ways because, um,
especially like white therapistsbring a lot of potential bias
but it sounds like in some waysthis was helpful to you.
What was that dynamic like?
Agatha Peters (06:33):
I think this was helpful to me.
I I think she did work thathelped me.
I think she was helpful to mein, um, my well, not addressing
my abuse, but actually, um,acknowledging maybe, or starting
to at least on, like that,having that, that blindage that
(06:56):
I had on for so long, startingto open my eyes a little bit, um
, but I, you know, being animmigrant, we're just happy to
get help Like it did not matterto me.
I know what you look like.
To be honest, that that's justI, just I was happy to get help.
(07:16):
Whatever help looked like, myinsurance covered it.
Then I just I had to pay acouple of dollars here and there
with copay and I was so young,so just just get it being in the
presence of help.
I think we look at thingsdifferently, I don't you know,
maybe in that sense of I mightbe different from, for, maybe, a
(07:36):
Black American that does notcome from that same background.
I hope that makes sense of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:43):
Yeah, no, it's just interesting to
think about, like how, how thesedynamics can unfold, because in
some ways I could see how itcould be helpful to kind of say,
like here's, you know, in thisculture, that behavior, you know
, looks so it's such a contrastthat, um, we can see that
contrast more clearly, like andmaybe this behavior isn't quite
(08:06):
appropriate, or, you know,compassionate or whatever yeah,
and at the other time at theother set.
It might be harder for thattherapist then to understand
that collect kind ofcollectivist culture absolutely.
Agatha Peters (08:15):
Yeah, I see what you mean there.
Yeah, from in, in my culturallens.
Yeah, I thought, well, you haveno idea what I'm going through,
right, like there is that.
You know complete differencesthere, but my goodness, it felt
good to be seen for the firsttime Like someone even seeing me
(08:38):
and seeing the struggle andpain and it not being so much in
my head anymore pain and it notbeing so much in my head
anymore.
I think she used certainlanguages that were probably
triggering to me as a Blackindividual, like that was the
hard thing there, but nothingthat she did intentionally and
as a therapist, you know.
But I think then versus now, Iknow what I need from a
(09:13):
therapist and I did try seeingactually another white therapist
.
I live in Oregon.
There's not much options there.
Another white therapist lastand actually doing my writing
process Um, and I just knew Ididn't.
I was not that same 18, 19 yearold then and at this point I've
(09:34):
lived in America for so long and, um, it just brought back a lot
of things for me that I Icouldn't really it.
It just felt different, it feltvery different.
So I gave it at least eightsessions, like I would with my,
so my clients keep going, causeshe was so skilled to her own.
Her expertise was narcissismand an EMDR, which is exactly
(10:00):
what I needed.
But I, it was really hard forme and it also partly why I
wrote the book for therapiststoo, to see how to help their
clients through this differentlenses, cause there's just yeah,
it was hard to connect with herin that way, which I know she's
(10:21):
phenomenal and does a wonderfuljob, but that cultural part was
really difficult.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:27):
Yeah, what translated cross-culturally
between you and your therapist.
Like what did your therapist oryou identify as like the
effects of having, you know,growing up with narcissism.
Like what did you notice waslike something you were
struggling with yeah.
Agatha Peters (10:47):
So I think for me , the huge thing there was.
First, my narc was so bad thatthere was a lot of suicide for
me, like suicidal mutations, um,we talk about the spectrum from
here all the way.
I yep, um, just individual wasin like this huge, um, uh part
(11:13):
that it affected my mentalhealth a great deal, um, where I
would, yeah, um, just really uh, think of ending my life so
frequently.
So in so many ways that firsttherapist opened my eyes, but it
was going through that.
(11:33):
So that opened my and I thinkeven with this therapist I saw
last year, I kept needingvalidation, which was an odd
thing too, because even thoughI'm in the field, I know all the
things, but the culture is thatpiece of it is your fault
constantly, right, like, thereis this guilt, there is all
(11:56):
those things.
I kept needing validation.
I would even my mentor thatI've known for over 20 years and
, sorry, I've known for um, overa decade and um, she's been a
therapist for 40 years has evenvalidated me.
My gosh, you're not wrong, thisperson is the worst of worst,
like, but it still wasn't enough.
(12:17):
I'm like you're saying thatbecause you know me.
So, um, yeah, it's the suicidalpart.
I you know that was a hugething to not know.
It's not, it's just not adepression or something that is
causing this, but more soenvironmental um and um.
The individual that I was withat the time, um, yeah, it was.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (12:43):
It was not good the what was the kind
of ideation a result of thisperson?
So it's so.
It sounds like they would.
They would behave really poorlyand then blame everything on
you, and so it's kind ofprogressive devout like
degradation of your self-esteemand yeah, but also the community
(13:07):
aspect of it.
Agatha Peters (13:08):
There was so so known in the community.
So you, you know, when you dohave a narc who is a parent or a
guardian, the mask is on.
In the communities, they arethe most like, they're better,
(13:29):
they're essentially perfect inthese people's like.
They show up, they're great, soyou want to see that you also.
That also makes you feel likeit's your fault, you're doing
something wrong, like, why arethey not showing me that much
love?
Why are they not showing up forme in that way?
Why are they, you know?
So that constant, you know, andthey also tell you it's your
(13:50):
fault.
So there is that you don't loveme like these strangers.
And then you know, um, you'realso confirming that.
You get that confirmation athome too, that, yeah, um, this
is all you Um, so there is thatconstant.
And then the communities also,it was almost just coming
(14:10):
together and like, yeah, you,you know you do bad things
because this pain to your prayer, you do, you know, feeding a
lot of lies that were not there.
But again, they needed that.
Um, this person is would bedescribed as a vulnerable
narcissist.
So, um, they needed that.
There's a lot of that sadnessand just, you know, um kind of
(14:35):
thing and, um, it's poor me.
I, you know I'm going throughthis, a lot of that.
Um, so then you know, thenyou're getting calls, or you're
being pulled away in meetings,or you know in gathering, like
what why?
Making them cry when I was,like I wasn't aware that they
were crying, I think.
(14:55):
You know um.
So, yeah, there is a lot ofthat um, that just fed that.
You know um, narc, in that way,um, so so much blaming, not
just from that person, thatindividual, but the community,
the.
You know it.
For a child, it would be likestepping into a school ground
(15:19):
knowing you're gonna face yourbullies, right, um, and this is
why, again, it's so hard withinthese cultures, because we're,
we're seen as a group.
So, and when you're, when yourguardian or parents say
something about you, it must betrue, right, like that's when
(15:40):
you go to the hospital and youtake your kid to see a doctor,
they ask hey mom, hey dad,what's good?
So it must be true.
So that's in so many ways, Idon't blame them because that's
what's, that's what's set out,that's that's what they you know
, even though it's completefalse, but that's what um they,
(16:01):
they have to believe, um.
And then there is also therespect of the elders, the.
You know all the things thatcome up and you just yeah yeah,
I have this urge to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (16:14):
I'm like trying to figure out how to
make this a more bite-sizedquestion, because I kind of want
, like a description of Nigerianculture, like what was it like
growing up?
What is the day-to-day like,who are, who are all these
people that define the familygroup?
Agatha Peters (16:29):
I feel like, you know, day-to-day growing up is
just sort of, you know, you haveaunties, which is very common
in a lot of those collectivecultures.
A lot of people are auntieseven though they don't birth you
, but you know that form ofrespect a lot of people are.
So again, that community right,like if you're my auntie, I can
(16:51):
come to you or I can.
You know, there's beauty in alot of that.
There is, you know, you havepeople that are always there.
You're not alone, unless you'remade to feel, you know there
can be a beauty.
It can be beautiful in so manyways.
But when it gets problematic iswhen we have situations like
(17:20):
narcissism.
And that's yeah, with cousinsyou grow up with, you know, you
might your neighbors, you canjust walk in wherever and and
all that, um, and I, honestly,when growing up in Nigeria, my,
my narc, wasn't a problem.
Then it was in, yeah, it was inthe US.
(17:43):
Um, I went through other abuseback home but that was not yeah,
um, yeah, not my narc, and Ididn't really, you know, grew up
with them in that sort ofdynamic Like you would think, a
parent, you know, sort ofsituation, but, um, it was the
(18:07):
year that it really when I.
And then there is this culturalexpectations where you have to
make it, you have to, you know,there, you know, you also had
the opportunity to come.
So how do you feel?
So then, which we all strive todo, and when you immigrants,
(18:27):
you want to do so much, but thenthat also can be a burden, and
even more so when you'reimmigrants, you want to do so
much, but then that also can bea burden, and even more so when
you are dealing with someonethat is a narcissist.
They can use that and exportthat in so many ways.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:43):
How does narcissism in parents show up
differently across cultures?
I resonate with a lot of whatyou're saying and I don't know
the specifics, but I, you know,and I come from a Chinese
culture where it was, you know,like the elders, the parents,
you know, you listen to them nomatter what.
(19:04):
And I was just having, like theother day, having a
conversation with a familymember about you know, the um,
uh, a situation where someonewho was older, um, was like
hurtful to the younger person,like said something hurtful, and
the attitude was like well,they're the older ones like, you
know, it was fine, you know,just you apologize, right, like
(19:27):
as a younger person, you, youdeal with that, that.
So it's like even thinkingabout narcissism and right now
in america, like we're talkingall over the place about how
they're narcissistic parents, um, but I wonder if it does it
look different if it's in adifferent culture, where where
narcissism in parents and olderpeople is like accepted, right,
(19:50):
like right, like the hierarchy,the entitlement, like they, they
have entitlement, right, likejust from being a year or two
older.
Agatha Peters (19:58):
I was meant to say auntie, like this idea of
like you're already all right,they do, they are special if
they're like older and yourparents.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:05):
So it's like is it, does it look different if
it's in a different culture, oris it like the same, but they,
we just don't like it as muchhere.
Agatha Peters (20:13):
Well, I think it does look different and I, in my
book, I really dive into.
Well, first of all, is itnarcissism, because there are
different mental disorders andyou know what that looks like.
And then, second of all, ifwe're dealing with cultures,
that really we think aboutparenting styles.
There is authoritarian parentsand authoritative I think.
(20:34):
Between those two, we think ofan authoritarian, which is much
more.
You know, they're strict, youknow, but so you know, this sort
of styles, I think you know,makes a huge difference in these
cultures.
You know, a lot of us in thosecultures are raised by
authoritarian households Likeyou.
(20:55):
They already set up your path.
You're going to be a lawyer,you're going to be a doctor,
you're going to be I was adoctor, you're being a doctor,
you know.
But why is that true?
Where is that coming from?
Is it coming from entitlement?
Is it coming from I want you tobe better?
Is it coming from I want you tobe better?
Is it coming, you know?
So this you know.
And if you do not meet thoseexpectations, are you still?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:17):
loved Right.
Agatha Peters (21:17):
Are you still cared for.
And you know, when I do look atthese cultures in and you know
some of that can be even abusedlike that we well, it is abuse
not just in Western culturesthat we see the spanking and all
of this stuff is added with alot of these collective cultures
(21:39):
and I think it's important tonote that the fact that it's
just we don't have, you know,you say, go to your room, there
might be five people in the roomplaying.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:49):
There is no, go to your room.
Agatha Peters (21:56):
There is just, we spank you and you kind of.
You know there is no takeawaytoys.
Well, I play outside.
So what do you mean, you know?
So that that's the layers ofwhere those hash punishments
come from.
Um, in those sort of communitiesis how I um, I how I look at it
, but with that authoritarianstyle, what I do see is it tends
to deviate, just deviates a bit.
(22:18):
Or, you know, they get lesseras the kids grow up.
You know your mom is notcalling well, I don't know, but
your, you know most moms are notcalling you in those same
styles saying did you becomethis, did you do this?
You know most moms are notcalling you in those same styles
saying did you become this, didyou do this?
You know the rules are stillnot sort of rigid.
As you grow up, they in factget lessened.
(22:38):
They now and that's thedifference right between when
you think of the narc and theextension of me you know it
doesn't continue through that,so that's you know I talk about
through that um, so that's youknow I talk about that even more
in depth.
And then um, in the book, butit doesn't, um, it doesn't
(23:00):
follow you throughout, uh, sortof adulthood and I think that's
the main way of sort ofdifferentiating it.
But then also um cause I've hadto figure it out myself.
But um, also in this culture, isthose punishment.
How are you being punished?
Are you just you left a platein a you know on the sink and
(23:25):
you're being burnt, or you'rebeing hit in the face, like it's
?
You know?
You've seen extreme hashpunishment.
The comparison of you're notgood enough.
Or this is the constantbelittling of the individual,
which I know there's a spectrumwith all of that.
(23:47):
But those true heart narcs,they don't just don't it's.
They use that culture as a sortof a source of getting more and
more of that.
So you put a narcissist in thatkind of cultures, like in these
it's.
It can be really detrimental.
For a lot of these um clientsof mine, it's yeah, because,
(24:11):
again, if you're whooped, it'sokay.
They don't like you use.
Did they use a belt and abottle or or you know it's.
Once a child says, oh, what's?
The child years it's okay andyour parent is right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:24):
You just kind of quiet this, you know, not
even um, you don't want to openup to that adult anymore um,
it's interesting, like, evenwith asian clients it's it's um,
especially when I even me,growing up in the us, but I will
have clients who are from eastasia and you know, especially in
(24:47):
narcissism, we always, you know, talk about like, oh, the
narcissistic parents want you tobe successful and they just
want you to be on top andachieve.
And if you, if you don't reachthat success, they're super
disappointed in you.
They stop loving you.
It's very conditional.
But if you talk to some of myAsian clients, or even how I was
raised, it's like they go yeah,of course it's normal for your
(25:10):
parents to want you to be thebest and get straight A's and be
a perfect violin player, and ifyou're not, of course you're
not as worthy and of course yourparents won't love you as much.
And I'm like, okay, is is.
Is then the whole culturalbelief narcissistic?
Or we just we just believe in,like, loving your child, no
matter what, and that's not howit is.
(25:32):
Like, how do you deal with,like that, what you said about
if they don't achieve or theydon't meet those standards?
They're, they're loved still?
Agatha Peters (25:40):
you see, I've seen client.
You know you bring that up.
I, you know I had a client asum uh, from asia as well.
That was sort of dealing withthe same Vietnam.
Yeah, I think that was it.
It was sort of dealing withthis.
You know the thing with us, too,when you grew up within NARC,
(26:02):
there is a it's almost as thoughwe there is this perfectionism
that we it's, and that's thehard thing is the stuff that
they implement in us.
It kind of works.
There's this forcefulness ofyou have to do so and you're
(26:23):
constantly proving love, right,like there is this console it.
You are, you don't stop youreducation, you keep going and
you keep going and it neverfeels like it's ever enough,
right, and but then the thing isyou don't really get that sort
of love like the other even, infact never stops If there is
(26:46):
your saying the wheel keepsgoing on and going on and going
on.
The difference there is in theother home that you described.
You hit that accomplishment.
You're now a doctor, you'reloved, you're praised, you've
got everything.
The other one you could be adoctor.
Heck, you could be a doctor.
You could be an astronaut, youcould be all the degrees and you
(27:06):
still did not hit that Right.
So it's never enough, can youspeak to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:19):
So I feel like I have a cluster of
questions around this point.
But, um, it sounds likesomething happened when you
moved to the united states wherethe abuse actually intensified.
So kind of the first part of myquestion is was there something
I know you had said?
Like, now you're in the UnitedStates, you're expected to
succeed.
So it sounds like that was partof it.
Agatha Peters (27:38):
The community part too, I think the community,
because you left you feel likethe lucky one In some ways.
It's like you are this, you'relucky.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:51):
So how can?
Agatha Peters (27:52):
you have a problem.
That's the only thing you haveis your parent was hash.
Okay, like you're in america begrateful, okay.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (28:02):
So there's this immediate
expectation of like you're notgoing to waste this opportunity.
You're lucky, you have noexcuse now.
Yeah, um, did your, did you,did your narc pick?
Agatha Peters (28:13):
it was that the behavior that they kind of oh my
gosh, I brought you to Americathat was all I heard like I
brought you to America.
So there is this huge paybackto this.
Yeah, I brought you here.
You know I was meant to do allkinds of things because I
(28:33):
brought.
They brought me here yeah yeah,it's interesting.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (28:36):
I feel like I've heard from so many
like stand-up comedian acts.
When they are, when they haveimmigrant parents, they'll make
that point like I'm such adisappointment.
I'm a stand-up comedian when myyou know, my parents were
immigrants here, so that wasjust I.
I was wondering if you couldit's.
It must be an interestingexperience to come from such a
(28:57):
different culture and then beplaced in american culture,
which is so individualistic andspecific and now you're dealing
with a dual cultural reality canyou kind of speak to what
that's like for you and whatyou've experienced from the
patients.
Agatha Peters (29:09):
I think, for me personally, I love it because I
get to pick and choose what Iwant to accept in my home and
what is not.
You know how I raise my kids, Ithink you know I'm also exposed
with more education in the wayof emotional intelligence and
all these other things.
That I'm not that they aren't,you know.
(29:30):
Yeah, it's just in a differentlens where I can see the mental
health piece of well, if peopleare beat, this is what happens,
you know.
So you get to choosedifferently and there is,
fortunately yes, I am.
I do consider myself, becauseof all of that, in fact, lucky.
(29:51):
Now, does being lucky mean thatyou don't cry at night and you
don't suffer through differentmental?
Yes, you know, the thing iswith the collective cultures and
individualistic there, sincewe're such a group, when one
(30:17):
makes it, that means we all makeit.
So therefore, we all also havethis responsibility of what are
you doing for your, for us.
The all Um and that's that'salso just how to it can feed a
narcissist in that sort of formtoo, where it's like well,
(30:41):
listen, I watched you when youwere five years old, a long time
ago.
You owe me $500 that you havein sets, so sort of oh, I did
this one thing, so it can feellike you constantly are working
(31:02):
for a community, and so I've hadto sort of embrace both to know
.
Okay, this individualistic partis, it's okay to enjoy the
fruit of your own labor and it'sokay to figure out how many
people you want that fruit to goto, or maybe just you and
you're the, the, the humans inyour life, um, so, just yeah,
(31:28):
navigate that a little bitdifferently, okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:33):
I'm curious when you're working with clients
and you're thinking aboutyourself and navigating people
in your family with narcissism,do you I want to say, suggest,
because we don't suggest but doyou do different kind of work
with people who are incollectivist cultures versus,
(31:56):
like American, individualcultures?
Yeah, because you know, maybeI'm so steeped into the
Instagram world and it's allabout like, oh, do you have a
toxic narcissistic parent?
Well, don't talk to themanymore.
Agatha Peters (32:09):
Get them out of your life and I'm like, well,
that's kind of hard in theseother cultures.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:15):
I mean even some clients I've had have are
really hesitant to even say orthat their parent was abusive,
not to even mention what apersonality disorder is.
They've been like oh, that's ofcourse, they're entitled,
they're, they're my mother.
Agatha Peters (32:30):
They're my father , so how?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:31):
do you work differently with victims of
narcissistic abuse fromdifferent cultures?
Agatha Peters (32:38):
Yeah, no, it's great that you bring that up.
That was me too, when I wassitting on that couch when I was
, you know, 18, 19.
Like, how dare you?
I want to come across this and,just like you know, fight you
for this.
This, you know, because thereis that protective culture.
Like we're protect, there'sprotection of our family,
there's protection of ourculture, there's pride in that
(32:58):
and in so many ways it's abeautiful thing.
Like, yes, just like Americanshave patriots, like we have, we
also love our culture and youknow it's where we came from, is
where we are.
Like there's a huge, you know,honoring culture.
That is, it's just, it's partof us.
(33:20):
So to say that that's wrong,it's so difficult, like to, and
then you also, you're okay, well, this person had it that way
too.
They, they experienced this.
You know.
You know I, you know I went tothe home and your mom was
(33:41):
spanking, oh, doing this ordoing that, but again,
narcissist they.
It's when the doors are closedthat you really see who they are
.
It's not they might've beenspanking them in a nice way when
you were there.
So you know how I really withculture is.
I, I try my best to understand,like you know, I, I, I, from
(34:04):
their perspective.
First of all, I think I get twotype of clients that come in.
One that already like yep,full-on narcissist.
This is the person that Iexperienced this with them.
They've read about it, they,they spent extensive amount of,
they're usually very educationaland, uh, educated and um,
really um, I don't know, maybethey're already parents too and
(34:27):
they're like this is.
I just don't want this tohappen to me.
I'm now in a relationship withsomeone like this how do I co
-parent with them All of thesethings?
They've really seen it.
They're starting to like whoa,this is happening.
And then there's another onethat might come, another client
(34:56):
that might take so long.
It could take weeks and weeksand weeks of trying to help them
to really get there, versus menaming it but helping them name
it, cause I know what that feelslike when it's named from my
lens but helping them name it umand helping them get there to
to identify um, because in somany ways it's so normalized for
them that it's it feels likeyeah, and then it's often with I
(35:18):
have to be perfect, I, you know, I am the problem and um, I'm
dealing with depression andanxiety and I, I walk around
like shells, right, like there'sall these layers, um.
So, helping them understand,you know, until you see what it
is, it's going to be really hardfor us to get to that healing
(35:41):
place because you're stillwalking in.
And these are why thesecultures are so hard, because
you can have, for example, anIndian that is still living with
several family members in thehome.
So when you say, cut off, cutoff and go where, like you know,
(36:01):
like they can't, we'll setboundaries.
There is no boundaries.
They come in my room wheneverit's just like, yeah, like, what
, like, what do I do?
So I think, for folks, when theystart having that breakthrough
is actually understanding.
Okay, well, see the pattern.
Let's start to see.
Let's sit with mom and see whatthat feels like, just for 15
(36:26):
minutes.
Then let's sit with someoneelse and see what that feels
like, and we just start to andall of a sudden they're like oh,
it feels different, Like shemakes me anxious, she makes me,
you know, tense, she, she, youknow.
So they announce her andidentify the signs without me
saying anything, but they'restarting to to get there on
(36:49):
their own.
Um, and then when I, you know,it might be when I sit with a
stranger then I start to wonderwhat are they thinking about?
Well, probably because that's,you know, yeah, comes from the
narc.
But they're like what are theythinking about?
Do they like me?
Do they not like me?
I'm like, oh, you're stilldoing gymnastics here in your
(37:11):
head with someone else, but howdoes that person makes you feel
externally versus you know whatgoes on in your head?
Okay, much more calmer, okay,those kinds of stuff.
So we want to find ways that wecan get more of that happy
medium, like that space ofhappiness, and eventually you
might get to that place whereokay, maybe I just needed this
(37:34):
family to get reach my goal ofbeing, you know, whatever that
goal is before I can get my ownplace.
But I do know that this is nothealthy for me, again, without
me having to do much, but justsort of leading them in that way
, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:54):
This.
What you said about boundariesis exactly kind of what I'm
facing with a patient who knowsthat she has a parent that's a
narcissist.
But I think, because of thatparent's behavior and also the
culture, like she's in thisposition of being everybody's
go-to person for help,everybody's in her business,
everybody, you know, has theseexpectations of her.
(38:16):
She feels like she has to beeverything for everybody else
and this is know, has theseexpectations of her.
She feels like she has to beeverything for everybody else
and this is like something shewants out of Um, but, you know,
without alienating herself fromthe family.
And I guess I'm just wondering,like how, once you've
recognized right, like yes,there's a narcissist here and
yes, there are kind of culturalforces that almost expand or
(38:41):
like compound the influence ofthe narcissist, like how do you
set boundaries within thatstructure?
Agatha Peters (38:51):
Oh, my goodness, this boundary stuff, it's so
it's such a hard situation.
I tell you not stuff it's, it'sso it's such a hard situation.
I tell you not.
I mean, I kid you not, becauseeven for me I still struggle
with it here and here and there.
Um, but I rethink my mentalhealth like, is it worth those.
You know what you know.
But I think, um, for thatclient is to determine what are
(39:13):
their goals, what are theirlong-term?
Do they still want to sit inthat mud and feel so destructive
?
Like are they okay with that?
And if they're okay with that,then just sort of help them
through it.
Like it might just be that wedo some deep breathing and we
work through the anxiety and wetake breaks and we walk outside
and then we come back in andthen we, you know, we distract
(39:36):
ourselves with cooking for thefamily, or then we, you know, we
distract ourselves with cookingfor the family or, like you
know, get occupied with otherthings in the home.
That doesn't make us feel soanxious or depressed or whatnot.
But they have to be the one tochoose that.
We can't choose that for them.
I mean, as much as we hate tosee them go through it, but we
(39:56):
don't want to choose it for them.
And if it is, I don't reallylike this.
I kind of want to go and Idon't.
I don't know where to start.
Okay, what seems feasible foryou?
Like what?
Where?
Where do we start?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:11):
Yeah, I mean this.
This reminds me a lot of workwith East Asian clients and
other kind of clients where youeven we're talking to them about
their values or their careerdesires, right, and then you go.
What do you want for your?
Agatha Peters (40:29):
life, what do you ?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:30):
what do you, what do you value?
And the way we want to do itwith our individualistic clients
from America, it's like what doyou want as an individual?
You know, besides what yourparents want or society wants,
what do you really want?
But with these clients who arefrom other cultures, they go.
I just want my parents to behappy.
Agatha Peters (40:51):
Love me.
Yeah, yeah, I want them to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:53):
I just want to.
I will be a doctor, becausethat's what makes them happy.
Yes, yeah, it's like what doyou want?
Oh, I want to make them happy.
So how, what?
What do you do when you havethose clients who they're?
What they want is to make theirparents happy and yet their
parents have a mental illness orpersonality disorder that makes
them never?
Agatha Peters (41:13):
happy.
I mean, I tell you, it took mewhat over decades to I mean a
decade to like um it it, untilthey reached that point of this.
Is, you know, you still talkingto someone that has had a
master's, that went to all thethings that you know, that still
wasn't enough.
(41:33):
A professor, they couldn't tellme nothing.
I would.
You couldn't do anything thatcould have prepared me to what.
Leave no, or do whatever.
No, I was not in that mindset.
I was not ready for that.
I did not want that.
I think for me, what trumped allof that was my kids.
(41:55):
You know, I think for your,remember these.
You know when you're hoping it.
You know, sometimes we don't doit for ourselves, but we have
to if they have someone else.
So I'm just sort of like theaddicts, you know, like maybe
it's there, is there is a childto do it for, maybe it's there,
(42:16):
you know.
You know they're doing it forsome, because I could have
probably stayed in that mod, asI say, for so long and maybe be
okay with that, because,whatever, even though the mod
was literally destroying me andin fact I, you know, who knows
if I would still be here, butthat's how terrible, terrible,
(42:37):
like how hard it is to leavegroups and those cultural
expectations.
Um, so I, I, I empathize withmy clients in a way, like if I
couldn't be ballsy enough afterhaving you knowing all of these
things, understanding that and Istill want it to be so much,
(43:01):
you know, I still wanted love,in whatever form.
It looked like, you know, evenif it looked like control, even
if it looked like you know allof these different things, all
of these different things, thenwhy do we just think you know
we're not God?
(43:22):
You just don't sit in a couchand all of a sudden think that
person will get thereimmediately.
It might take a while, but Ithink again, it's sort of like
that.
What do they do?
The ice cream thing where youlike lick and you're like, oh,
it feels good, it's the hold onto and that feeling of good it's
.
That was basically what I dowith the sit with someone else
(43:43):
and see what that feels like.
Eventually, when you start towant good things you're going to
, you know, you you start tofeel seen, have, you know, be
heard.
All of those things start tocome.
Maybe it's building thosedifferent communities, what that
looks like, finding a communitystill within your community
(44:04):
that still gets it Right, and Ithink for us sometimes we forget
that there's still people inthese communities that can
relate to us in this way.
So finding that and, um, Ithink can, can go a long way as
well.
Um, you know, if you're notready, I think I lost your
(44:27):
questions there somehow, but Ihope I answered it, did I?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:33):
can I ask how, where you've ended up
with this, have you cut off therelationship or do you just
approach it in a different way?
Agatha Peters (44:41):
Well, for me.
You know I'm there wheneverthey need me, but I let it where
they need me.
I don't go seeking, I thinkbefore I was seeking it, so much
so and that just I think thatgives them more control in my
(45:01):
brain.
I don't know, like it probably.
But where you know when I sayI'm there whenever they need me
is if you know, if they all of asudden called me and said they
needed help, which oftentimesdoesn't happen, thankfully.
But yeah, I lead with that andI don't know it's not for them.
(45:36):
Being a vulnerable narcissist,it is really hard for them to
hear me as a therapist.
I think that's also hardbecause I there, there are ways
that I I talk and maybe it'salmost sort of triggering in a
way.
So they don't want to hear allof that and I don't let them.
(46:00):
I can say, okay, might have atwo-minute conversation, not a
one-hour conversation about ohmy gosh, you know this, or you
know just all the you knowterrible things that has
happened to their life, thatnever changes.
And yeah, I might not sit forthat and dwell with this.
(46:25):
You know, part of me would wantto fix it.
Or how do I help?
Because that's what we want todo.
We want to help.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:34):
How?
How did becoming a motherchange your relationship to this
, like, how do you think aboutthis in your parenting or the
way you were raised?
Um, yeah, how did becoming amom?
Agatha Peters (46:48):
influence your thinking.
I think you know when you saythat you, my gosh, I had yeah,
I'm going to try not to beemotional here, because I had my
little human and for the firsttime I understood what love like
I had my partner and I happilymarried for over a decade um,
(47:13):
the love of my life.
But I really truly it.
Just it felt easy.
Like it felt easy and theydidn't have to do anything other
than exist.
Like really, it was just easy.
And I don't expect them to everdo anything other than really
(47:36):
exist and live the life you'resupposed to or whatever that
means for them while I guidethem through this whatever life.
But it felt easy.
And I remember needing my narcwhen I just had a baby and I
(47:58):
said, well, I never asked youfor anything.
Can you do this one thing forme?
Just watch him for a day?
So I don't know.
And that's when I also realizedthat the love I have for my I
could never, never.
You know that that yeah.
So when I say mine is likepretty high up there, pretty,
(48:20):
since, yeah, it just theyweren't able to do it, they
couldn't sacrifice a day.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but just wow, I feel
like, that's when you had aturning point, too is when you
had a son.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:38):
So yeah, I mean, we could tolerate so much
abuse I guess for us sometimes,or just like take it in and then
, when you see it, eithertowards you or towards the kid,
and yeah, you know, like it just, you just have a new
perspective.
When you step back and go, oh,I used to be that kid and I got
(49:02):
this kind of treatment, or howcould someone look at me at that
, that age, and do all thethings that I experienced?
Right, it just, it just changesyour perspective in this
interesting ways and yeah, itjust makes some things a little
bit clearer of like wow, yeah,treat a kid like that.
Like yeah, I would never do thatto my son or yeah, yeah, the
(49:24):
same as me, that's.
Agatha Peters (49:25):
I thought, you know, I to me I almost looked at
it with in a different way forthem to be able to sort of learn
how to parent again, which issuch an odd thing to think of.
I'm going to give you thischance it will be my second to
(49:47):
do it right this time.
Well, did they fail so big like?
It was like yeah, yeah, and Ikept trying, I kept trying, I
kept trying everything I could,but they just they weren't able,
they just didn't care.
(50:07):
I don't think they.
It just you know, my kiddowould cry and they would bring
out a camera to record them anddo something about it.
Yeah, it just yeah, to laughabout it later or laugh about it
during the recording.
oh my god, yeah, I know it'sintense.
(50:33):
It is intense, it is Yep, soyeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:40):
I'm glad you I mean it sounds like
you have figured out how to setsome boundaries and kind of been
able to say to yourself like Iwill communicate to the extent
that it aligns with my valuesand that's it.
Agatha Peters (50:57):
I think embracing both cultures helped me a lot,
and then, I think, also mypartner, like you know, and I
also got to experience whatbeing you know, being having a
healthy parent was like throughhis own or in that little way,
(51:17):
like people make sacrifices.
Oh, you do this.
You just show up and just lovethem and care for them.
Oh, wow, this is no wonder he'ssuch a well put together.
Um, yeah, this is, this is nice, um, so it's not.
It's not so cultural Humanbeings can actually, you know,
(51:38):
my, my husband, is Nigerian,american as well, um, but has a
very loving parent.
Um, just, you know, both hismom and dad, dad passed now is
just really just amazing, truly,is Um so seeing parenting in
that sort of land.
Sometimes you just don't get tosee when you are in a
(52:00):
relationship or grew up with anarc, you just don't get to see
what healthiness looks like andunderstanding that culture can
still exist and we% withoutaccepting that abuse that you
know we don't have to.
So I think he helped me a lotand also it was affecting our
(52:30):
relationships Like this.
You know he also wants to fixthings Like you know we can.
Wants to fix things Like youknow we can't.
We can't fix this person, um,and it's hurting you and it
hurts.
It hurt him to peel me off thefloor, yeah, so yeah, it's like
(52:52):
this is not okay, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:55):
Well, it's awesome to see someone
who's survived this and likelearn to thrive through it and
and really kind of get a handleon it and their own sense of
wellness and boundaries and beable to help others.
Um, it sounds like you wentthrough a hell of a time for a
lot of years, Woo.
Agatha Peters (53:12):
Yeah, yep, that's why I chose the profession.
Yep, that's why I chose theprofession.
We all do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:32):
We want to help others too, in however
way possible not to feel thesame pain we've had to endure
and feel and that's not okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:36):
Yeah Well, I don't have any more questions,
kimmy, do you?
No, I think this has been great.
I'd love to hear more aboutyour book and how people can
find your work.
Agatha Peters (53:42):
Well, my book thank you, Dr Kibi, for asking
my book is on Amazon andeverywhere.
Books are sold online andreally it just dives into
exactly what we talked about,but even more in depth, of you
know, in these cultures, how doyou separate, how do you
(54:04):
distinguish and really trulyknow a narcissist?
And if you do have a narcissist, how can you get through it and
the other side, and and um, orlive with them?
So, this book, how do you youknow, and also helping
therapists understand that,especially the ones in this in
(54:25):
Western lands, um, yeah, howpeople in collective cultures
are going through thisexperiences.
So, um, yeah, you can get thebook anywhere.
Books are sold online and reachme through my um website.
Uh, beautiful sunshinetherapycom.
That's where I'm at.
(54:46):
The name of my site isbeautiful sunshine therapy, and
I have an Instagram page too.
Amazing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (54:52):
Well, thank you All those in the show
notes so thank you so much forthis has been such a fascinating
talk and topic.
Um so really grateful to havehad you on.
Um, yeah and yeah.
Thank you, guys, nice to meetyou and little helpers.
If, if you loved ourconversation, give us a five
(55:12):
star rating on spotify and applepodcast and we'll see you next
week.
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