July 30, 2025 • 54 mins
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What happens when you look into a stranger's eyes and suddenly realize what's been missing from your marriage all along? In this episode, bestselling author Amber Rae joins us to share her transformative journey from a nine-year relationship that checked all the boxes on paper but lacked true intimacy and connection.
Amber's story challenges our conventional understanding of commitment, revealing how we can unknowingly convince ourselves that relationships are working when essential needs remain unmet. "I didn't know I was pretending," she reflects, describing how she repeatedly tried to fix her marriage through therapy, self-help books, and doubting herself. The wake-up call came unexpectedly when she experienced an electric yet calm connection with a stranger that made her question everything.
We talk about what it's like to question your relationship or feel stuck between staying and leaving. Amber explores our patterns – whether we tend to leave too quickly or stay too long out of fear or people-pleasing – and provides permission to honor our authentic needs.
Beyond relationship insights, Amber shares her process of writing her new memoir "Lovable," describing how she created a "brave draft" by writing as if no one would read it. This approach to truth-telling mirrors what's needed in our relationships: the courage to see and speak our truths before considering how they'll be received.
Whether you're questioning your current relationship, healing from a past one, or simply curious about authentic connection, this conversation offers both validation and a framework for honest exploration. If you need more support in this journey, join our KulaMind Community for more relationship tools and connection with others walking similar paths. 50% discount off the first month if you sign up now!
Resources:
- Check out Amber Rae's site and her Instagram @heyamberrae
- Pre-order her new book "Loveable: One Woman's Path from Good to Free" out August 5th!
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys , welcome to A Little Help for
Our Friends the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibbe, Real quickbefore we dive in.
If you've ever listened to thispodcast and thought why didn't
anyone teach me this stuffsooner?
That's exactly why we createdthe Kula Mind Community a space
to learn real relationship toolsdirectly from us and to connect
with others, loving someone whostruggles with their mental
health, and we also just helpyou show up in your
relationships as your authenticself.
(00:29):
So come join us.
We'd love to have you.
If you sign up right now,you'll get a 50% discount off
the first month.
It's a discount that I'm notoffering for very much longer.
So really sign up as soon asyou can and check out the link
in the show notes, or go tocoolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (00:51):
Hey, little helpers.
Today we have a really coolguest.
Her name is Amber Rae.
She's an internationalbestselling author, best known
for the books Lovable and ChooseWonder Over Worry.
Amber, welcome.
I first met you, I want to say,like 13 years ago when I was a
wee lass of like 21 years oldand have kind of followed you on
(01:12):
Instagram ever since.
So it's really fun to be ableto reconnect now.
Amber Rae (01:17):
So fun.
I know I was trying to remember.
I'm like, were we at thestandard?
I don't know.
I'm like I was trying toremember where in New York we
were when we met, but I havethis like vision of where we
were sitting the table like Ihave.
But yes, it's so good.
That's all I have too is.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (01:35):
I have like a flashball memory.
Yes, um, and it was interestingbecause I remember.
So I I followed along on yourInstagram and you started
writing like a lot ofinspirational posts and a lot of
journaling and kind of artprojects.
And then you, I remember youhad this husband who you I think
you both would like wear hatstogether.
(01:56):
I remember as the team, youguys both wear hats.
There were some hats and youseem like a big part of your
story.
And then all of a sudden, oneday there was a post that kind
of suggested that there had beena big change and there was a
new man.
And I've since learned thatyour first husband was your best
(02:20):
friend, that you married.
And then your second husband iskind of this um, spectacular
love story and kibbe and I have,um, I like I bowed out of my
engagement really soon before mywedding and kibbe divorced
(02:41):
interestingly divorced the guythat she had been like really in
love with through her 20s andthen married her best friend,
who she is now much more in lovewith.
So it's just kind of likeinteresting how we all sort of
fit together but also have majordifferences in this story.
Amber Rae (02:57):
Fun collision of stories.
I love this.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (02:59):
Yeah, so can you kind of just give the
background on like writinglovable and what, what your
story was?
Amber Rae (03:08):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
The story was based on thiswild life experience that I
lived, which was four years ago,while married.
I looked into the eyes of astranger and it was like I
suddenly woke up and I didn'teven know.
I don't want to say the spellthat I was under, because, but
it felt like I was kind ofasleep and I had been in a nine
(03:30):
year relationship and marriagewith my best friend, who was
never my romantic partner, but Iwas desperately trying to
convince myself that he was myperson, because in a lot of ways
, our relationship checked a lotof boxes.
We got a long break, we had agood time together, we traveled,
we enjoyed each other's work,we had a great shared community
and we liked each other'sfamilies and it's like isn't
(03:53):
that enough?
Shouldn't I be grateful?
But at the same time, someessential needs were really
unmet for me, which was thevulnerability and the intimacy
and the depth of connection, thesexual relationship.
Um, those things were neverreally online for for us and you
know, for I wanted it to bethere but just couldn't figure
(04:20):
out how to make it work.
And I think you know I verymuch had the mindset of of I can
make this work and I can figurethis out, and maybe another
session of therapy or aself-help book or a workshop is
going to be the thing thatfinally brings us closer
together.
Or you know, in our Latin, thelast iteration, we were business
partners in Mexico building aland project together, and you
(04:43):
know this wasn't conscious forme at the time, but I think I
thought if I make him mybusiness partner and if we build
this thing together, thenfinally I'll get the kind of
intimacy and closeness that Ihaven't been able to reach or
access in this relationship.
And so all of that was kind ofonline.
And then I look into thisstranger's eyes and it was like
wait, this is what connection issupposed to feel like.
(05:05):
And it was as if the house ofcards kind of came burning down
and I suddenly could no longerpretend or ignore, deny what my
true feelings were.
Um, and it was.
It was so strange is that, likeI didn't know, I was pretending
.
You know I was, and I thinkwhen we want something or at
(05:29):
least my experience was I had tobe very convincing of myself.
And so, you know, I was verymuch in the kind of knew, I
couldn't unknow, and then it wasjust facing.
Facing the kind of reality ofwhat really was, instead of what
(05:53):
I wanted it to be.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (05:55):
I mean, yeah, that is very resonant.
Um.
Can you clarify what you meanby?
It was never a romanticrelationship Like, was that
explicit?
Or was it that you were actingas?
It was never a romanticrelationship Like, was that
explicit, or was it that youwere acting?
Amber Rae (06:11):
as if it were a romantic relationship but, not
feeling it.
We just didn't have sex.
So a little bit in thebeginning, like, and that just
like wasn't where our connectionshined, that would like that.
The chemistry wasn't there andI thought we would figure it out
.
And he proposed six months intodating.
Like that, the chemistry wasn'tthere and I thought we would
figure it out and he proposedsix months into dating.
And so you know, I said yes andI think making a commitment of
(06:32):
that, like making that kind ofcommitment, so I was like we'll
figure it out, we'll figure itout, we'll figure it out, I just
like kept thinking we wouldfigure that piece out.
We never figured that piece outand I think you know I don't
want to speak for him, but Ithink there was a lot of shame
there for me and is theresomething wrong with us and is
there something wrong with me?
And so I think I also pushed itdown because of that shame.
(06:59):
And you know, we were intherapy for a period of time and
never told our therapist wedidn't have sex, you know.
So it was like it was almostlike the one shame inducing
truth that we were afraid toreally acknowledge, because I
can speak for myself here, notfor him.
But I, you know, it was like,if we would give voice to that,
maybe we would have to look morehonestly at what our connection
(07:20):
really was.
And so it's, like you know, wewere like cuddly and, like you
know, like cuddle, like friendsdo, but it it was just like not,
not intimate, not sexual.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:29):
And were you friends, like were you friends
for nine years before or wereyou married for years?
Amber Rae (07:34):
We were engaged for seven.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:37):
Oh, wow.
Amber Rae (07:38):
And married for two.
Yeah, I mean a seven yearengagement.
Come on, you know, I look backnow and it's like all right,
these, all the signs are herethat I did not want to see.
And you know, and I did.
I walked down the aisle andwith the wedding it was kind of
(08:02):
like, okay, we've got to makethis happen, a way to convince
myself of what, you know, ourrelationship was.
And um, and yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:13):
What when it came to like, planning the
wedding, or sex itself.
What, um, what, what do youthink the barriers were Like?
What would it be like?
You two didn't even think aboutit?
Or if it came up, Was thereconflict around it?
Or was one person pushing for,the other person pulling away,
Like what?
What happened there on those?
(08:34):
You know the day to dayexperience of that.
Amber Rae (08:37):
I mean on like a deep psychological level that I
wasn't aware of at the time.
I picked someone who was myfriend, who I didn't necessarily
desire in that way, I realizedlater, because I lost a father
when I was young and I did notwant to have to feel abandonment
again, and so I chose partnersthat I thought A wouldn't leave
(09:01):
me or B, if they left itwouldn't hurt as badly as if I
did desire them, because Ididn't want to feel the longing
of wanting a father figure.
You know, wanting that malelove was something my little
girl wanted so intensely.
So I think I chose saferelationships in adulthood as a
way of avoiding that pain again.
(09:29):
But like, so that's like the thebigger thing but on a
day-to-day level, like I thinkyou know, and I I am, I'm like
what's going?
on for him because it's not likewe were.
There were.
I write about one, one story inthe book, but there was a, you
know, but in in the majority ofthe relationship, we weren't
like trying to initiaterejecting the other person.
We were just not initiating Um,and so you know, I don't know
(09:51):
for me that made it safe for mein some ways.
Um, but there was one instancewhere I, like you know, had a
few glasses of wine and I waslike, okay, I'm going to like
make a move.
And of wine.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonnalike make a move.
And um, and he totally shut down, kind of like, pushed me away,
kissed me on the forehead andwent and started working and I
(10:12):
like went in there and I waslike, listen, like, are we, are
you gonna like?
And this was, this was rightbefore we moved to Mexico, this
is, like you know, in the lastmaybe year of our marriage or of
our relationship and I was like, are you gonna make love?
Are we love?
Are you going to like do workright now?
And he was kind of like, uh, Ihave a lot to do for tomorrow.
So, you know, I think, um, yeah, there were, there were clearly
(10:37):
some.
There was clearly disconnectionthere.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (10:40):
Was this a pattern for you, kind of safe
relationship after saferelationship?
Often when we hear aboutpatterns it's more like unsafe
relationship after unsaferelationship.
But the safety is in neverhaving to grapple with that long
term commitment, never havingto be truly vulnerable, let
yourself be seen.
This feels like a differentkind of thing and it's
interesting to me.
Amber Rae (11:01):
I swung both ways.
I swung both ways.
I, you know, I think my firstboyfriend was very safe, and
then I went to college and hadanother safe boyfriend and I was
like, oh, maybe I can like goafter this guy that I really
want, that if he chooses me,then I'll believe I'm worthy of
love.
And then I made that decisionand it blew up in my face.
(11:22):
And then I tried that again andit blew up in my face and then
I tried that again and it blewup in my face and then I was
like, oh, this is too scary.
But you know, I don't thinkcommitment wasn't the fear for
me, I think losing love was thefear.
And so, but after these kind ofexperiences of going after what
felt like attraction and desirebut not necessarily emotional
(11:43):
safety, what felt likeattraction and desire but not
necessarily emotional safety, Ithen I think I swung really far
into okay, I'm just going intothe friend zone.
I can't, my nervous system can'ttolerate what comes up when I
go after a partner I desire.
It's way too dysregulating.
I can't make anything happen inmy career and in the times when
I did go after desire, I likewas abandoned, or that was my
(12:07):
story.
I was, you know, I dated a guyfor a year and then he like
ghosted me after a year and Iwas like what, and so it was too
painful, and so I was like oh,I'm not doing that again.
This, this is what happens whenI go after men.
I really desire.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, when you were with your ex and
you were saying making it work,what, what, what were the
stories that you were tellingyourself?
Like, when you're saying it, itmight have been me, it might
have been like what was, whatwas the?
What were you?
How were you explaining, like,why aren't we having sex?
(12:40):
Why isn't this connecting?
Connecting, yeah, you know, Ithink it was there was I should
be grateful.
Amber Rae (12:46):
There's a lot that's working here.
I it was also a time in mycareer where I was really
thriving and so I was like I'myou know.
But she was just asking whatwere the stories I was telling
myself.
Yeah, I should be more grateful.
We can figure this out.
(13:07):
We have a lot.
That's good.
It should be good enough.
Like you know, your partnershould be your best friend,
which is advice I've been givenAfter.
You know relationships kind ofsizzled out over time this is
what happens when you getcomfortable with each other.
You know relationships kind ofsizzled out over time this is
what happens when you getcomfortable with each other.
So it was just kind of likemaybe this is, and I didn't have
(13:29):
any role models for good loveand so I didn't really know what
was like.
Is this right?
And you know I would talk tofriends.
I was like, well, they're kindof not having that much sex
either.
You know they're five years in,you know, and maybe it's once a
quarter, and so like maybe thisisn't that crazy, maybe this is
what happened.
So I just kind of believed thatit was the norm and there was
(13:51):
enough working to be and to begrateful for that.
Like why should I, why should Iwant more?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (13:59):
I am.
I remember in my lastrelationship I had built up
romance to be the most magicalthing ever that would like bring
you to a higher plane ofhappiness and existence.
And I think you know merepeatedly not finding that in
partners would lead to me kindof cutting and running.
And then my last partner showeda ton of interest in me and
(14:20):
investment in me and even thoughhe had a lot of bad stuff, I
was like I can't let this go,obviously because so many people
don't get that, so many peoplehave these kind of absentee
husbands.
And I remember I remember likelaying on my parents couch and
deciding to mourn my previousidea of what love was and just
say I guess this is it, likethis is probably as good as it's
(14:43):
going to get and there'ssomething wrong with me that
isn't able to appreciate it more.
But you know, I'm just gonna,I'm going to try to accept this
for what it is.
That sounds like that was sortof maybe part of your experience
, I don't know.
Amber Rae (14:57):
Yeah, I think acceptance is a big piece and
it's, it's.
I am getting so many messagesfrom women right now.
Um, I feel guilty wanting moreand I think it's so interesting.
Or, you know, we're not thatintimate or I don't feel that
connected to him, but he's goodto my kids, even though he's,
you know not, I don't feelcloseness with him, like, should
(15:20):
I feel guilty wanting more?
And, and I think we do like, asa way to persevere, we accept,
we like accept what is, um, andyou know, but what I'm hearing
you say is that you, you had to,yeah, you had to accept that.
That's just the way that youthought love was going to be.
And I'm curious, though, likewhat, what, what for you, if you
(15:43):
were accepting this like oldstory of love, what then brought
in this, this more expandedversion?
Because you said you had tolike kind of accept, and I so,
but it sounds like you've nowexpanded into something
different.
What, what shifted for you toexpand into that new story?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (16:02):
um, my my partner treated me really
badly in certain ways and I'vetold this like story on the
podcast a lot, but he part ofwhat part of what I was
accepting was that I was kind ofhis mother in an emotional
sense and I was also his captivein another sense and um.
I that kills romantic love,right, like that kills sexual
(16:23):
intimacy.
But because I had always kindof been avoidant, I was like, oh
, this is just what happens inrelationships and this is just
what happens for me.
I rescued myself from thatfeeling in conjunction with my
friends who were like hisbehavior is not okay.
And it came time for me to getmarried and I had seen a lot of
nasty divorces and I was like Ibasically there was this whole
(16:45):
like it all blew up at one pointand I got out of it.
And then with my, I met mycurrent fiance very quickly
after, like three months after.
And you know, I think actuallysome of the resignation I had in
my previous relationship washelpful.
(17:06):
I no longer idealized love tothe same extent.
I was able to come back down toearth a little bit, but Jason
just gave me a sense of likefreedom and authenticity and
like in protection that I wasfinally in a place to really
appreciate and actually likefeel was romantic and like
(17:28):
sexual energy for me.
Um, yeah, so I I kind of thankmy first part not him, but like
that first relationship forfreeing me from the idea that
love had to be my big rescuerand that it had to be absolutely
dazzling and like, oh my God,amazing, and put me in a
position to really appreciatehow love can be just lovely,
(17:52):
just like lovely.
Most of the time, and, yeah,and I don't know, I just I have
much more of a sense of likepeace and my mind is clear and
I'm still attracted to him, andthat was a mega, mega relief,
yeah, but yeah, I would.
I would, I would love to hearreally relate to me.
You looked into your futurehusband's eyes and saw what
(18:15):
there?
It sounds like you.
You saw aliveness there.
Um, what was this?
I felt, yeah, what was the kind?
Amber Rae (18:23):
of unfolding.
I felt a lot, ms Bair.
It was like this I felt aconnection that I'd honestly
never felt before, which waselectric but calm, and it was
just this, this feeling of kindof hello again.
And I think having felt thething that was missing entirely
(18:45):
from my nine-year relationshiphad me kind of wake up to oh,
this is what it's supposed tofeel like.
And I didn't, you know, myfirst thought was, oh, maybe in
another life, like I didn'tthink I was going to blow
everything up for this stranger.
But I was so taken by how thatfelt and how important that it
(19:08):
felt to feel that sort ofconnection, and it kind of led
to a curiosity and an awakeningaround like, OK, what's really
going on in my marriage and whydon't I feel that?
And it just it became themirror for me to look honestly
and at my relationship and thestories I was telling myself
about it.
And I can relate to a lot ofwhat you're saying, jacqueline,
(19:31):
because I really romanticizelove and I, you know not having
role models around love.
I looked to romantic comediesand it was like sweeping
gestures of love and you know, Ithink of even how my first
husband proposed.
It was like horses, sunset ATVs, climbing butterfly gardens.
It was, you know these over thetop our wedding.
(19:53):
So over the top it was.
It was kind of let's, let's.
We didn't know how to do loveso we had to, like, show love.
And you know, in my, myrelationship now it's so much
more simple Keep proposed in ourbackyard after a meditation.
Didn't need to be this wholething because we knew that the
(20:16):
love was there and the love wasreal.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:19):
How do you for the, for people who are
listening, who are in theserelationships, maybe long-term,
that they're not sure you know,they don't, they, it doesn't
feel as, um, you know, maybe itdoesn't, there's not, it's not
that like electric butterfliesall the time and, um, they, they
(20:43):
might feel you know that energywith someone new.
Amber Rae (20:46):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:47):
How do you, how do you, piece apart?
When is it like okay, it'sreally time to leave my current
relationship or is it time to,you know, revamp what we have?
Like?
How do?
The question people always askis how do we know when to get
out Right?
How do we know that it's likethe the relationship is broken,
(21:07):
versus like this is newrelationship energy?
We have this like attraction tosomeone new which has its own
feelings to it.
Besides, for like someone thatyou're working on a long-term
relationship with, right, it'sso hard to tell.
Amber Rae (21:21):
Yeah, you know, I don't feel electric butterflies
blooms, you know, in the sameway with my husband.
Now it's, it's evolved intosomething more stable, more sure
, more um, more, more contained,I think, which is which is
healthy.
More contained, I think, whichis healthy.
(21:44):
I will say, if there's no worldright now where I would notice
or be attracted or feel thatwith anyone else because I feel
so secure and met within themarriage that you know, I think,
if someone, if you're feeling,you know, electric connection
with someone else, that pointsto some insecurity within your
current dynamic and something tolook at.
So you know, for me, when I didmeet him, I was like oh, wow,
(22:05):
yeah, there is something brokenin this relationship and so I
need to look honestly at thatand I need to speak actually
honestly to my.
So I was very transparent andopen and then began an open
dialogue with my ex-partner, Um,while I was like trying to
figure out my feelings and whatwas going on with John.
It was, I mean, it was, it wascrazy to be like holding both Um
.
But you know, I think the adviceto people like when to get out,
(22:27):
is like, okay, my friend ViennaFarron, she's a, she's a
therapist.
She says sometimes the healingis in the going and sometimes
the healing is in the staying,and it's important that we look
at our relationships to endingsand stains.
And so you know, for example,I'm someone who tends to
overstay People.
Please harmonize.
I don't want to disappoint orhurt people, so I'll hurt myself
(22:49):
, I'll abandon myself withouteven realizing I'm abandoning
myself because I don't want tolet someone down.
And so you know thatoverstaying pattern means I
sustain and put up with, youknow, behavior that may not feel
great for me, because I almost,like, don't know better and
I've been trained in tolerance,in a way, and instead of
tolerating, I've realized thebad behavior of the
(23:12):
disconnection or the lack ofvulnerability or the lacks of
sexual relationship.
I realized that I had totolerate the discomfort of
someone being disappointed in mespeaking my truth or in me
acting on something that isright and true for me, even if
they disapprove or disagree.
And so you know, I think forsomeone, if you're finding
(23:33):
familiarity in that narrative,I'm always the one who who
overstays, you know, I think,get curious about that.
How is that showing up in therelationship?
Is this an opportunity to voicea need to say hey, I feel
really disconnected to you or,hey, this need is long gone.
I'm not like I don't want tojust be intimate, you know, once
a year, twice a year, I it'svery important to me.
(23:53):
And then, like you can try toput the work into the
relationship.
And sometimes people can meetyou there and sometimes they
can't.
And so you know, I think, um,esther Perel, at one point, you
know, actually had aconversation with her, um, so
jealous, and you know she saidwell, your marriage is over, do
(24:14):
you like to begin a new one?
And sometimes I think peoplecan begin a new one and
sometimes I think people canbegin a new marriage within
their marriage.
And I think sometimes growthmeans growing apart and you
actually can't grow within thatcontainer and it just.
You know, after nine years ofefforting and also then becoming
aware of my own unconsciouspatterns that had led me to
(24:35):
choose this relationship, Irealized that growth here means
growing apart.
And in a lot of ways I had likereally tried to get some needs
met and like had some thingsthat were just like really did
not like move, like could nothandle that.
There was no change around.
And so you know it's such apersonal decision, it's such a
(24:56):
layered decision, it's such anuanced decision and I think, uh
, looking at the saying, theleaving, and really like
connecting with that wise voicewithin you that knows, um, which
I know can require a lot of.
There's going to be a lot offear.
That gets the way of hearingthat intuition, a lot of anxiety
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:17):
Um are some places to be gone yeah, I mean,
I think that makes so much sense.
I was thinking about my ex, myex-husband, and that that was a
whole saga, but it was reallylike a mind fuck in a way,
because I kept being like wewere having a hard time, we were
(25:37):
disconnected in different areas, like he wasn't um, he wasn't
working, he wasn't pursuing ajob or really contributing to
moving towards, like making afamily, what I, what I dreamed
of.
And I kept thinking for years Iwas like you know, we're just
going through a hard time, or wegot to work on it, or marriage
is hard and you can't geteverything you want.
(26:01):
And I do like I don't regret.
Like, looking back, I was like,oh, I wish I held my standards
higher or something.
But like back then you don'tknow Right, you don't know what
you have to sacrifice, because,like, not one person can't be
everything right, like there areparts of a relationship that
are going to feel not perfect orconnected, and I do believe
(26:24):
that some people can come backfrom that and start anew in
their relationship and it it waskind of strange to be like,
okay, how much longer do I waitfor this to transform or get out
Like, is it?
You know, am I?
Am I just shortchanging it andnot giving this a chance to
reach the potential it can be,or should I have gotten out in
(26:49):
the beginning?
And it's just that part goingback and forth in that was so
hard, it took so long.
Amber Rae (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I had dinner with one of my best
friends recently and she waslike, oh, amber, you were asking
questions for you and I waslike I was Tell me, you know,
and she's like you were, youwould you'd like sit on your
couch and have a glass of wineand you'd be like, is it weird
that we don't really have sex?
Or like I don't really, youknow, she's like you had a lot
(27:19):
of like.
There was a whole doubt,dialogue going on for many years
.
So it's you know, and I, Ithink part of.
We live in a culture that tellsus to stay no matter what.
Stay for the kids.
Figure it out.
Like marriage is hard.
You make it work, and so Ithink there's an opportunity to
like like I don't regret thosenine years.
(27:40):
I don't wish that I go back andthink I maybe should have left
earlier, because that's how mystory unfolded.
You know, I'm the mother of anine month old who now exists
because of the perfect timing ofeverything, and I look at him
and I'm like you're so meant tobe my son, you know.
But I do think if we can takethe shame away from leaving and
like instead, be like, okay,this relationship is complete.
(28:01):
Let's celebrate that.
Like wow, like what?
Like look at what you were ableto accomplish in the container
of this love.
Like whether that's just likehealing old wounds or
identifying patterns.
Like we only learn throughexperience.
Clarity comes through action,like you know, and and we get
wounded in relationships, so wehave to heal in relationships
and so you know, I think theidea that we have to be with one
(28:25):
person forever is often whatcan stifle us and hold us back
and think that like it's bad orshameful if we have to leave,
it's like no, celebrate it.
You grew as a person.
Bad or shameful if we have toleave, it's like no, celebrate
it.
You grew as a person.
You're now more aware and nowyou get to step into a life
where you know you find someonewho's a better fit for you now,
(28:45):
at this moment.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (28:45):
The stigma around divorce is
interesting because it'saccepted fact that in order to
get married, we have to date,and usually those relationships
are short term.
But suddenly, if marriage or arelationship is nine years and
then it ends that scene as afailure instead of like you guys
made it nine years, oh my gosh,like that's a lot more work and
a lot more success than thetwo-year relationship, right?
(29:07):
It just happens to have thisword marriage appended to it and
like potentially a legaldocument.
One of the ways that I oh, I'munder God.
Amber Rae (29:17):
You're what it's the vows under god.
Right as I, I've been tellingmy story more publicly.
There's, you know, a lot ofpeople saying that I I am satan
and I'm deaf because I made vowsunder god, and to to break
those vows is the is theultimate.
Like you're satan, satan kitty,we're interviewing Satan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:40):
How fucking cool is that?
I mean pretty cool, but alsothere's a lot of Satan going
around.
If we just tie that to like oh,half the marriage.
I mean the Coldplay concert, Imean, come on, you know.
I mean there's so many peoplewho leave their marriage.
What are you talking about?
It's more than half.
Amber Rae (29:57):
All right was like okay, but these, the people in
this comment section, is whypeople stay in things that
they've long outgrown I, I wannayeah, I do want to ask you
about that in just a second.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (30:08):
One of the ways that I knew that jason
was right for me was and thishas become like accepted kind of
instagram therapist speak.
But my body definitely knewbefore I was willing to speak it
or to act on it.
Like I in my relationship withmy ex, I couldn't take a full in
breath.
It was like there was a cap onmy breath and I I went on Lex,
(30:29):
like I went on an SSRI to calmthe anxiety, and I just chalked
it up to oh, this is my likeavoidant attachment style, which
I didn't, I don't even think Ihad, but I just chalked it up to
oh, this is my like avoidantattachment style, which I didn't
, I don't even think I had, butI was like this is just me
struggling to stay committed,when in fact, I think I had just
met many men who were not theright one and my body was like
(30:58):
they're not the right dude, getout.
And then I met Jason and like,yeah, sure, there were
butterflies and all of that, butI think more than that, my body
is just relaxed, like when I amwith him I feel safest, most
joyful most.
At peace I can breathe thefullest.
Did you have that experience atall Over nine years?
It's a little different.
Amber Rae (31:10):
I mean I felt safe with him in a way that one feels
safe with a friend, but therewas a lot that I there was a lot
of like holding my breath, likefeeling you know, there my body
was definitely communicatingwith me.
I was breaking out in rashes,oh, um, I had eczema and rashes
that when I left my marriagecompletely went away, and so I
(31:33):
feel like my body was definitelytrying to get my attention and
say like this isn't it?
And you're not listening, and Ican relate to like just the
yeah, the sense of peace, thenervous system that feels so
safe and at peace.
Like now and I mean honestly itwas.
Sometimes I'm like, oh, thissounds like.
When I looked into his eyes Iknew he was my person, like my
(31:56):
body and my intuition were likethere he is, he's the father of
your children, like let's go.
Maybe you're going to blow upyour life.
Come on, what are you waitingfor?
Like that was like truthspeaking.
But then, of course, fear waslike you're psycho, he's a
stranger, everyone will hate you, you're going to be shamed.
You're like here are all thereasons why this is inconvenient
(32:17):
and terrible timing.
And like you know, yada, yada,yada.
But like body, knew and youknow.
Eventually took me about sixweeks, but I listened to my body
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:27):
It's, it's crazy, like the wisdom of our
bodies.
I mean, maybe they did.
Yeah, we just got to payattention to that so much more
because there's just like suchcrazy rates of like GI problems,
hormone imbalances, all thesethings that women are struggling
with.
And yet, like the three of ushave had experiences where our
bodies were like nope and ourminds were like just we're going
(32:49):
to make this work body, come on, you know, get, get, get going
have sex.
And I couldn't get pregnant withmy ex husband.
We tried for two years and then, as soon as I got with my
current husband, we got pregnantalmost immediately.
So it just our bodies just know, and I'm curious, what you're,
the, what I call the, the, thecurtain, pulling the curtain
(33:12):
experience, where you have thatmoment of clarity and then
you're like like looking back oneverything and it just is like
one of those clarifyingexperience where you have that
moment of clarity and thenyou're like like looking back on
everything and it just is likeone of those clarifying moments
where you see the matrix code oryou see like pull the curtain
back.
Well, tell us, like the, whatthat was like.
Like that day, what did you do,like did you have conversations
with your?
(33:33):
Did you go back and saysomething to him, like what
happened?
What happened when the curtainwas pulled for you?
Amber Rae (33:40):
I mean so that I mean that night.
So the day I met John, he waswith two friends, but it was a
this meeting.
He just tagged along for it andthey were supposed to be there
for an hour and five and a halfor six hours later they leave.
And when they left I turned tomy then husband.
I said I just met a soulmateleave.
And when they left I turned tomy then husband.
I said I just been soulmate.
It was like, oh my god, he wasthere.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, my my husbandwas there.
(34:01):
When I met my now husband, theywere there for the moment
together.
Did he see it?
Did he go?
Oh well, he like later said themoment he saw us see each other
, he knew our marriage was over.
Um, wow which I think goes toshow that we both knew the
marriage had been long over.
And it wasn't him, he was justthe catalyst for what was
(34:22):
already there.
But yeah, I like I, the energywas or the, the connection was
so palpable between him and Ithat it's so undeniable that I
and I wasn't like and now I'mgonna blow everything up and
leave you and blah, blah, blah.
I was just like I just met asoulmate, like I was like,
almost like because he was,because of I don't know, it was
like I couldn't not say it andhe, in what he said I'll never
(34:48):
forget.
He said I saw that wasbeautiful to witness and I think
there was real like beauty andsurrender in in that and like
truth and like I actually thinkhe thought it was beautiful.
Um, because I, you know, andthere was, we went for a roller
coaster of emotions, but I dothink my ex, he wanted, you know
(35:11):
, he was committed tounconditional love and he wanted
, we both wanted each other toexperience, you know, a depth of
connection and I, you know,there was a moment a few weeks
later where he came to me.
He's like I feel like I met myJohn, I just like had this
experience with this woman.
I had my hand on her thigh andI thought, oh my God, if you
walk in the room and I'd beterrified, and I like, as he's
(35:32):
telling me this, I was like I'mso happy for you, I want you to
experience that, and I don'tmean it to be me, you know.
And so it was like it was sucha wild moment of us like just
kind of discovering and beinghonest together.
And you know, there were a lotof like.
So what was crazy is that,because I was like, oh well,
(35:54):
john can't be my life partner.
I then made him my creativepartner in the project with my
husband, so the three of us werethen collaborating on a project
together.
I mean it was like it's crazy,that's awesome.
Did they get along?
They did, and like the three ofus together had like really
like we were making all thesethings happen and people were
wanting to invest, and likeartists, and like it was just
(36:17):
like things were, things wereflowing, um, and then, like we
all kind of began naming what'strue together.
Very strange experience, wow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:26):
That's so cool and that's so, so
respectful.
Have you, have you guys seen um?
You've got mail that old wroteromantic comedy with um Tom
Hanks and um Meg?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (36:38):
You're shaking your head, meg Ryan?
No, I thought I had, but I haveseen it, of course, right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:43):
This is like a classic.
There was a moment where she'slike with Greg Kinnear and you
know she's falling in love withTom Hanks over email, over like
pen pal email and then they goout to dinner and they go.
There's this beautiful momentwhere they're starting to talk
and she was like wait a minute,you don't love me.
(37:03):
And he goes and she says Idon't love you either.
And then they just starttalking about who they might be
in love with otherwise and itjust sometimes it's just like
that's the dream that you've gotwhere it's like this you don't
have.
I mean, I'm sure it's painful,I'm sure it was painful for many
reasons, but it's for thechange and the transition.
(37:23):
But it's so beautiful that allof you could just recognize that
this is, this was just.
You know, it's nothing personalor it doesn't mean anything bad
about him, it just.
This is bigger than either anyof three of you.
Yeah, yeah, Wow.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (37:43):
What, what was, uh?
What was John's reaction whenhe looked into your eyes?
I mean, was this felt on bothsides?
Amber Rae (37:50):
Yeah, it was, and I didn't know that initially, um,
I thought I was justexperiencing something, um, but
he later told me that he becauseand he saw, he saw me walk
towards a green, this blue,flowy dress, and he saw me walk
toward their car, and so hespotted me before I spotted him
and kind of had a feeling oflike and in he was you know, he
(38:11):
was he's like.
It wasn't like a sexual charge,like heat energy, it was like
this, like calm, like whoa, likethis, what is this?
So, yeah, he did have the sameexperience as I did.
That's fucking cool.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (38:25):
Yeah, I am really struck by your ex's
reaction and your reaction tohim, where we it's like we're
trained to expect that if wearen't meant to be together then
there has to be this, like youknow, rejection and abandonment
and our ego has to be hurt.
And you, I know before you metJohn, you were very into the
(38:45):
wellness space and kind of theintention, integrity, kind of
messages, and I guess if youwere business partners you
must've been as well.
Did your kind of philosophies,life philosophies, help lend
itself to this or?
Amber Rae (39:00):
we were recent business partners.
We hadn't been.
This was just we were buildinga slam party.
But yeah, I think somethingthat united us for sure was like
our.
We wanted to live in a worldwhere every person could be
their highest true self, and soso, and we I remember we were
reading the book the SurrenderExperiment when this all went
(39:20):
down.
So I do think, you know, wewere in a place where there was
like an openness and receptivity, a sense of surrender, a sense
of trust, not to say that likeego rejection, abandonment, like
those things weren't felt orexperienced along the way,
because there were, you know,all kinds of.
You know, at one point my thenhusband tracks down John at a
(39:41):
coffee shop.
It's like are you falling inlove with my wife?
You know, like there was, therewas definitely drama.
I know it's all in the book,but like it, at least it was
open.
You know there was no.
And I think, in in some way,the three of us didn't know what
was going to happen, but weknew that if we voiced our truth
(40:04):
, that was going to align us allto the right thing, even if we
didn't know what it was yet.
Like I didn't know if John wasthe great catalyst for me to
leave this marriage, that Ineeded to leave um, or if he was
going to be the great love ofmy life, Didn't know.
I just knew that, like I'mvoicing what's true as it's
unfolding, and I'm going totrust that that's going to take
me where I need to go.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (40:26):
So what happened next?
What happened next?
So you, you all, start workingtogether as um three business
partners.
And then did you admitsomething to John, did you leave
your marriage for like how?
Amber Rae (40:37):
We, john and I, went on a little.
We were looking at land and wewere like doing a, because he we
went to just like a furniturestudio and we're looking at
design pieces, and because I wasgoing to make him my creative
partner and he was going toinvest in this project, I said
to him, like okay, I just Ican't leave this unsaid.
I just need to voice that thenight I met you, I like felt
(40:58):
this really strong connection.
Am I crazy?
Am I making this up?
And there were so many likethere were so many
synchronicities happening andserendipities happening that
like I couldn't even includethem all in the book because it
would make it sound like a verycheesy love story.
It was like like too manyshooting stars, you know.
Like it was like the universewas like pay attention, you know
.
And so he then said to me um,and I bring that up because
(41:22):
there's this like moment, butit's too long to explain.
He then says to me no, I'm,you're not making this up and
I'm so glad you said something,because I did.
I had this feeling of I've justmet my soulmate and he's like,
and I'll be honest, I like went,went back to my friend's house
that night and told my friend,you know, like why is the
universe showing me this personwho's like so clearly meant to
(41:44):
be my person, but he's notavailable?
And you know what he?
What?
He interpreted that as okay.
Well, I guess she's showing melike the type of person that I'm
going to call in.
And this is actually teachingyou what unconditional love
looks like, because I know thatI love her and I like, like I
just want so much goodness forthis person, but I don't need to
(42:04):
possess her.
Maybe the lesson here is likelove without possession, um and
so, you know, and then I waslike, okay, you know.
And then like, okay, let's dothis.
And then I, you know, I thinkwe, we tried.
And then I was like, oh no,there there's, there's real
feelings here.
I also think he thought thiswoman's in a happy marriage and
was not available.
So, like you know, and then Ithink, once he started to
(42:27):
realize, wait, maybe this isn'tquite what I thought it was, and
I started to be like, as we allkind of walked down this road
together and as my ex was kindof like, actually, you guys,
hanging out is really helpful Irealized I've been vetting
myself and, like you, takingcare of her emotional needs and,
like you know, I'm like get togo do more work and I really
(42:47):
liked it.
So it was just like a crazy,crazy series of events.
A crazy, crazy series of events.
And are you still in contactwith your ex?
We, um, you know, like thathe's now he remarried.
Um, he's now actually the landhas become their thing, um, down
(43:09):
in mexico.
Um, we, you know the?
I got flowers when my son wasborn, you know things like that,
not thrilled about the book.
Okay, I'll be honest, I waswondering and, like you know, I
told him I'm going to write abook about this and he was like,
of course, you're going towrite a book about this.
I like, I know who I married,like, why, duh?
(43:29):
And then, I think, when it cametime to the book coming out,
and you know perhaps, he saidthat when he wasn't in a
relationship and now he'smarrying as a new person.
Um, and he is a main characterin the memoir, greg, he's not
named.
You can't even like Google andfind anything.
So I like, you know I've, I'veleft, you know, so it's, he's
just, you know, a man in a story, um, and this has been part of
(43:56):
my work of being like okay, hedisapproves of me doing this.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (43:57):
This person that I like nine years of
my life with, that I like careabout, disapproves, but this is
my story and this is my truthand I have to tell it, and so I
had to be like, okay, I have totolerate that discomfort well I
remember I I might misrememberthis, but I I feel like I
remember a post where youadmitted on social media that
you'd met somebody new and thatyour relationship was over, and
(44:20):
I, I remember I don't know if itif you were acknowledging that,
maybe people would judge you,or there seemed to be something
a little bit nervous about thepost.
Yeah, um, I don't know ifthat's true or if it was me
being like is this?
Is there a new dude?
Amber Rae (44:35):
what happened to the old one, but I mentioned that
the marriage was over and I wasdefinitely nervous okay, you got
those things right.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (44:45):
what was that?
I mean I've I, you know, I havea fraction of the followers you
do, but it was on, you know,reality and so it got like tons
of the internet hate and allthat.
So I know how terrifying it isto break the news about
something on the internet andespecially, you know, with your
life, where mine, you know minecame from a reality TV which is
(45:06):
messy and they expect us to fuckup and, you know, make
disastrous choices.
Yours was much more likepositive and inspirational and
all this.
And so talking about a divorce,I mean, satan's divorce must
have been really scary for you.
So what, what was that like?
Amber Rae (45:22):
Well, I will say, initially people were very
because this was a couple ofyears ago.
This is, I didn't.
I was, you know.
I said I left my marriage and II can't remember the exact
details, but I basically no,actually maybe I did say oh no,
I came out in the post sayingthat I was with someone new.
I left out the detail that I'dmet him while married.
In that post, um, and I thinkthat was more because I realized
(45:46):
, like, as someone who has kindof told the truth about their
life on the internet for a longtime, I realized that, like I
don't have to, I can share, Ican be discerning when I share
it, because our relationship wasnew and I get to protect what's
ours and, like you know, therewill come a time where I want to
tell the whole story and Iwasn't ready to tell the whole
story yet, um, but there wasdefinitely like definitely fear
(46:09):
of judgment around how quickly Imoved on.
You know all that.
But I remember being verynervous posting it, but it was
also.
I felt deeply relieved and atpeace because it was my truth
and the you know I felt fair, mycommunity came and was
incredibly supportive and so Ihaven't really gotten all the
(46:33):
backlash until now that I'mtelling the full story and I'm
glad because I've had the time.
You know, I think whensomething triggers me, um, you
know people are like how dareyou leave your marriage for
another man?
That doesn't trigger me.
Now it used to trigger mebecause I shamed myself for
doing that.
And so I had to work through myown shame about my story.
(46:55):
So now when people havethoughts like because I've
worked through it and I likehave you know realized that like
life happens, I, you know thisis just happened to be the way
that my story unfolded and likewhy you know kind of who cares,
you know know it's, I'm not astriggered by the backlash.
If that makes sense, that'sgreat.
(47:17):
Yeah, it's like it's all in me,it's all like a okay,
something's really upsetting me.
Someone did recently say, um,like I wonder how your ex feels
about this, and that one got mebecause I was like, oh yeah, I
do kind of feel bad.
You know this is, can't youknow, being the character in
someone else's memoir, eventhough you're not named and no
one knows.
Most of the world won't knowwho you are.
I can imagine it would be anuncomfortable experience.
(47:38):
So I like I had to look at thatand be like okay.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (47:42):
Yeah, that is the writer's dilemma,
always, I feel.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:47):
Absolutely Well, tell us about the process
of writing this book.
I mean, you know, tell us aboutthe process of writing this
book.
I mean, you know, tell, tell usthe title again.
But what was it like to writeabout all of this and process it
, reflect on it in thisparticular and be be open about
it in public?
Did you say?
Say the title again Also?
Yeah, just just for if anyoneforgot what it's called.
Amber Rae (48:09):
Lovable is the title.
I mean the writing.
As a writer, writing is thespace of healing, cathis
transformation.
It's.
You know, when you put pen topaper, there is something really
powerful and sacred that canhappen.
It's it's like an elkin processof alchemy, and I teach a lot
of writing workshops and myprocess is always like first I,
(48:32):
I write the bad draft, which isjust like get it down, it
doesn't need to be great.
Trying to write a great piece ofwriting is only going to get
you to not write at all.
And then my second draft iswhat I call the brave draft.
And the brave draft is where Igo in and I say where can I be
more honest?
What truth am I not saying?
How can I have this be, youknow, the most honest depiction
(48:52):
of what was happening inside ofme and what you know, what was
happening in that moment?
And I always say write like noone will read it.
And this is, I think, the mostessential thing, because when we
have other people, what will hethink?
What will my mom think if Ishare this story?
Is he going to be uncomfortablebeing featured in my memoir?
(49:14):
If those questions are in thewriting room, we're not going to
get good stuff on the page, soI had to write the first draft
and tell the story exactly as Ineeded to tell it.
My John, my husband, did notread the book until it was done,
and that's I didn't even want.
Even though he was aparticipant in the story and
(49:35):
knew he was going to be featuredin this book, I didn't want to
write the book that I thought hewould like and want to read.
He also has a different literarytaste than me.
I wanted to write the book thatI needed to write and so, and
you know, and it was connected,the writing the book helped me,
like, connect the dots of mypast and like under, like I
didn't even realize mystepfather was abusive until I
was writing the book and I waslike, oh my God, that was
abusive and oh my God, that'swhy that happened.
(49:58):
So it's like, you know, writingcan be this powerful healing
process for us and we need tohave the space to really
experience that feeling.
And if we're editing our story,then we can't look honestly at
our story and so much of healingcomes through being able to see
our stories accurately.
So that's, you know, that'sreally what the process was.
(50:18):
And then I think you know, onceyou've written the truest thing
on that you can possibly write,then you can go back and be
like, is that story necessary?
Like, do I need to bring inmore compassion for my mom?
Do I?
You know, like, whatever,whatever those questions are,
and so, like, the edit is whereyou can take things out.
Um, but, you gotta write first,like no one's going to.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (50:44):
I need to take one of your workshops
because I used to be a hugewriter and I've felt blocked for
so long now we will unblock you.
Amber Rae (50:51):
I am okay, I queen of unblocking.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (50:54):
Oh, that's what I need.
That would be amazing.
All right, well Kivi.
Any last questions?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:02):
No, this has been fascinating.
I'm just like just getting toknow you, but so happy that
you've had this.
You know, like it's just such athere's so many people who just
feel imprisoned in theirrelationship and I I do.
I do see there's two sides ofit.
There are, there are people whoare just like if you're in a
toxic relationship, badrelationship, get out and
(51:24):
there's something to be said for, um, that other side which is
just like, hey, I've, I've beenthrough, I have a really bad
model of love and security andsafety and these other things
were important to me.
I just didn't, I just like itwas scary to let go of, to shoot
(51:44):
for something else, right?
So I also want to say that it'shard for people who feel stuck
in a relationship to say youknow like there are reasons why
you're in what you're in, butthen how do you know whether,
when, to like step off into thegreat unknown and and give
yourself shots?
So I'm just it's been amazingto hear the story and that it
(52:06):
worked out so beautifully.
Amber Rae (52:08):
Thank you.
Yeah, this conversation hasbeen a lot of fun.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (52:12):
All right.
Well, when does Lovable hit theshelves?
Amber Rae (52:16):
Lovable is out in the world August 5th, available
everywhere books are sold, so Idon't know when this is going
live, but in a week and you can,yeah, buy it anywhere books are
sold.
You can follow me on Instagram,heyamberray, and my website.
Amber Ray has all the goodies,all the writing workshops, all
the things.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (52:36):
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guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast the information,
opinions and recommendationspresented in this podcast are
for general information only andany reliance on the information
provided in this podcast isdone at your own risk.
This podcast, and any and allcontent or services, available
(52:58):
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constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
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treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
(53:18):
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You you.
Hey guys , welcome to A Little Help for
Our Friends the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibbe, Real quickbefore we dive in.
If you've ever listened to thispodcast and thought why didn't
anyone teach me this stuffsooner?
That's exactly why we createdthe Kula Mind Community a space
to learn real relationship toolsdirectly from us and to connect
with others, loving someone whostruggles with their mental
health, and we also just helpyou show up in your
relationships as your authenticself.
(00:29):
So come join us.
We'd love to have you.
If you sign up right now,you'll get a 50% discount off
the first month.
It's a discount that I'm notoffering for very much longer.
So really sign up as soon asyou can and check out the link
in the show notes, or go tocoolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (00:51):
Hey, little helpers.
Today we have a really coolguest.
Her name is Amber Rae.
She's an internationalbestselling author, best known
for the books Lovable and ChooseWonder Over Worry.
Amber, welcome.
I first met you, I want to say,like 13 years ago when I was a
wee lass of like 21 years oldand have kind of followed you on
(01:12):
Instagram ever since.
So it's really fun to be ableto reconnect now.
Amber Rae (01:17):
So fun.
I know I was trying to remember.
I'm like, were we at thestandard?
I don't know.
I'm like I was trying toremember where in New York we
were when we met, but I havethis like vision of where we
were sitting the table like Ihave.
But yes, it's so good.
That's all I have too is.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (01:35):
I have like a flashball memory.
Yes, um, and it was interestingbecause I remember.
So I I followed along on yourInstagram and you started
writing like a lot ofinspirational posts and a lot of
journaling and kind of artprojects.
And then you, I remember youhad this husband who you I think
you both would like wear hatstogether.
(01:56):
I remember as the team, youguys both wear hats.
There were some hats and youseem like a big part of your
story.
And then all of a sudden, oneday there was a post that kind
of suggested that there had beena big change and there was a
new man.
And I've since learned thatyour first husband was your best
(02:20):
friend, that you married.
And then your second husband iskind of this um, spectacular
love story and kibbe and I have,um, I like I bowed out of my
engagement really soon before mywedding and kibbe divorced
(02:41):
interestingly divorced the guythat she had been like really in
love with through her 20s andthen married her best friend,
who she is now much more in lovewith.
So it's just kind of likeinteresting how we all sort of
fit together but also have majordifferences in this story.
Amber Rae (02:57):
Fun collision of stories.
I love this.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (02:59):
Yeah, so can you kind of just give the
background on like writinglovable and what, what your
story was?
Amber Rae (03:08):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
The story was based on thiswild life experience that I
lived, which was four years ago,while married.
I looked into the eyes of astranger and it was like I
suddenly woke up and I didn'teven know.
I don't want to say the spellthat I was under, because, but
it felt like I was kind ofasleep and I had been in a nine
(03:30):
year relationship and marriagewith my best friend, who was
never my romantic partner, but Iwas desperately trying to
convince myself that he was myperson, because in a lot of ways
, our relationship checked a lotof boxes.
We got a long break, we had agood time together, we traveled,
we enjoyed each other's work,we had a great shared community
and we liked each other'sfamilies and it's like isn't
(03:53):
that enough?
Shouldn't I be grateful?
But at the same time, someessential needs were really
unmet for me, which was thevulnerability and the intimacy
and the depth of connection, thesexual relationship.
Um, those things were neverreally online for for us and you
know, for I wanted it to bethere but just couldn't figure
(04:20):
out how to make it work.
And I think you know I verymuch had the mindset of of I can
make this work and I can figurethis out, and maybe another
session of therapy or aself-help book or a workshop is
going to be the thing thatfinally brings us closer
together.
Or you know, in our Latin, thelast iteration, we were business
partners in Mexico building aland project together, and you
(04:43):
know this wasn't conscious forme at the time, but I think I
thought if I make him mybusiness partner and if we build
this thing together, thenfinally I'll get the kind of
intimacy and closeness that Ihaven't been able to reach or
access in this relationship.
And so all of that was kind ofonline.
And then I look into thisstranger's eyes and it was like
wait, this is what connection issupposed to feel like.
(05:05):
And it was as if the house ofcards kind of came burning down
and I suddenly could no longerpretend or ignore, deny what my
true feelings were.
Um, and it was.
It was so strange is that, likeI didn't know, I was pretending
.
You know I was, and I thinkwhen we want something or at
(05:29):
least my experience was I had tobe very convincing of myself.
And so, you know, I was verymuch in the kind of knew, I
couldn't unknow, and then it wasjust facing.
Facing the kind of reality ofwhat really was, instead of what
(05:53):
I wanted it to be.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (05:55):
I mean, yeah, that is very resonant.
Um.
Can you clarify what you meanby?
It was never a romanticrelationship Like, was that
explicit?
Or was it that you were actingas?
It was never a romanticrelationship Like, was that
explicit, or was it that youwere acting?
Amber Rae (06:11):
as if it were a romantic relationship but, not
feeling it.
We just didn't have sex.
So a little bit in thebeginning, like, and that just
like wasn't where our connectionshined, that would like that.
The chemistry wasn't there andI thought we would figure it out
.
And he proposed six months intodating.
Like that, the chemistry wasn'tthere and I thought we would
figure it out and he proposedsix months into dating.
And so you know, I said yes andI think making a commitment of
(06:32):
that, like making that kind ofcommitment, so I was like we'll
figure it out, we'll figure itout, we'll figure it out, I just
like kept thinking we wouldfigure that piece out.
We never figured that piece outand I think you know I don't
want to speak for him, but Ithink there was a lot of shame
there for me and is theresomething wrong with us and is
there something wrong with me?
And so I think I also pushed itdown because of that shame.
(06:59):
And you know, we were intherapy for a period of time and
never told our therapist wedidn't have sex, you know.
So it was like it was almostlike the one shame inducing
truth that we were afraid toreally acknowledge, because I
can speak for myself here, notfor him.
But I, you know, it was like,if we would give voice to that,
maybe we would have to look morehonestly at what our connection
(07:20):
really was.
And so it's, like you know, wewere like cuddly and, like you
know, like cuddle, like friendsdo, but it it was just like not,
not intimate, not sexual.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:29):
And were you friends, like were you friends
for nine years before or wereyou married for years?
Amber Rae (07:34):
We were engaged for seven.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:37):
Oh, wow.
Amber Rae (07:38):
And married for two.
Yeah, I mean a seven yearengagement.
Come on, you know, I look backnow and it's like all right,
these, all the signs are herethat I did not want to see.
And you know, and I did.
I walked down the aisle andwith the wedding it was kind of
(08:02):
like, okay, we've got to makethis happen, a way to convince
myself of what, you know, ourrelationship was.
And um, and yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:13):
What when it came to like, planning the
wedding, or sex itself.
What, um, what, what do youthink the barriers were Like?
What would it be like?
You two didn't even think aboutit?
Or if it came up, Was thereconflict around it?
Or was one person pushing for,the other person pulling away,
Like what?
What happened there on those?
(08:34):
You know the day to dayexperience of that.
Amber Rae (08:37):
I mean on like a deep psychological level that I
wasn't aware of at the time.
I picked someone who was myfriend, who I didn't necessarily
desire in that way, I realizedlater, because I lost a father
when I was young and I did notwant to have to feel abandonment
again, and so I chose partnersthat I thought A wouldn't leave
(09:01):
me or B, if they left itwouldn't hurt as badly as if I
did desire them, because Ididn't want to feel the longing
of wanting a father figure.
You know, wanting that malelove was something my little
girl wanted so intensely.
So I think I chose saferelationships in adulthood as a
way of avoiding that pain again.
(09:29):
But like, so that's like the thebigger thing but on a
day-to-day level, like I thinkyou know, and I I am, I'm like
what's going?
on for him because it's not likewe were.
There were.
I write about one, one story inthe book, but there was a, you
know, but in in the majority ofthe relationship, we weren't
like trying to initiaterejecting the other person.
We were just not initiating Um,and so you know, I don't know
(09:51):
for me that made it safe for mein some ways.
Um, but there was one instancewhere I, like you know, had a
few glasses of wine and I waslike, okay, I'm going to like
make a move.
And of wine.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonnalike make a move.
And um, and he totally shut down, kind of like, pushed me away,
kissed me on the forehead andwent and started working and I
(10:12):
like went in there and I waslike, listen, like, are we, are
you gonna like?
And this was, this was rightbefore we moved to Mexico, this
is, like you know, in the lastmaybe year of our marriage or of
our relationship and I was like, are you gonna make love?
Are we love?
Are you going to like do workright now?
And he was kind of like, uh, Ihave a lot to do for tomorrow.
So, you know, I think, um, yeah, there were, there were clearly
(10:37):
some.
There was clearly disconnectionthere.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (10:40):
Was this a pattern for you, kind of safe
relationship after saferelationship?
Often when we hear aboutpatterns it's more like unsafe
relationship after unsaferelationship.
But the safety is in neverhaving to grapple with that long
term commitment, never havingto be truly vulnerable, let
yourself be seen.
This feels like a differentkind of thing and it's
interesting to me.
Amber Rae (11:01):
I swung both ways.
I swung both ways.
I, you know, I think my firstboyfriend was very safe, and
then I went to college and hadanother safe boyfriend and I was
like, oh, maybe I can like goafter this guy that I really
want, that if he chooses me,then I'll believe I'm worthy of
love.
And then I made that decisionand it blew up in my face.
(11:22):
And then I tried that again andit blew up in my face and then
I tried that again and it blewup in my face and then I was
like, oh, this is too scary.
But you know, I don't thinkcommitment wasn't the fear for
me, I think losing love was thefear.
And so, but after these kind ofexperiences of going after what
felt like attraction and desirebut not necessarily emotional
(11:43):
safety, what felt likeattraction and desire but not
necessarily emotional safety, Ithen I think I swung really far
into okay, I'm just going intothe friend zone.
I can't, my nervous system can'ttolerate what comes up when I
go after a partner I desire.
It's way too dysregulating.
I can't make anything happen inmy career and in the times when
I did go after desire, I likewas abandoned, or that was my
(12:07):
story.
I was, you know, I dated a guyfor a year and then he like
ghosted me after a year and Iwas like what, and so it was too
painful, and so I was like oh,I'm not doing that again.
This, this is what happens whenI go after men.
I really desire.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, when you were with your ex and
you were saying making it work,what, what, what were the
stories that you were tellingyourself?
Like, when you're saying it, itmight have been me, it might
have been like what was, whatwas the?
What were you?
How were you explaining, like,why aren't we having sex?
(12:40):
Why isn't this connecting?
Connecting, yeah, you know, Ithink it was there was I should
be grateful.
Amber Rae (12:46):
There's a lot that's working here.
I it was also a time in mycareer where I was really
thriving and so I was like I'myou know.
But she was just asking whatwere the stories I was telling
myself.
Yeah, I should be more grateful.
We can figure this out.
(13:07):
We have a lot.
That's good.
It should be good enough.
Like you know, your partnershould be your best friend,
which is advice I've been givenAfter.
You know relationships kind ofsizzled out over time this is
what happens when you getcomfortable with each other.
You know relationships kind ofsizzled out over time this is
what happens when you getcomfortable with each other.
So it was just kind of likemaybe this is, and I didn't have
(13:29):
any role models for good loveand so I didn't really know what
was like.
Is this right?
And you know I would talk tofriends.
I was like, well, they're kindof not having that much sex
either.
You know they're five years in,you know, and maybe it's once a
quarter, and so like maybe thisisn't that crazy, maybe this is
what happened.
So I just kind of believed thatit was the norm and there was
(13:51):
enough working to be and to begrateful for that.
Like why should I, why should Iwant more?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (13:59):
I am.
I remember in my lastrelationship I had built up
romance to be the most magicalthing ever that would like bring
you to a higher plane ofhappiness and existence.
And I think you know merepeatedly not finding that in
partners would lead to me kindof cutting and running.
And then my last partner showeda ton of interest in me and
(14:20):
investment in me and even thoughhe had a lot of bad stuff, I
was like I can't let this go,obviously because so many people
don't get that, so many peoplehave these kind of absentee
husbands.
And I remember I remember likelaying on my parents couch and
deciding to mourn my previousidea of what love was and just
say I guess this is it, likethis is probably as good as it's
(14:43):
going to get and there'ssomething wrong with me that
isn't able to appreciate it more.
But you know, I'm just gonna,I'm going to try to accept this
for what it is.
That sounds like that was sortof maybe part of your experience
, I don't know.
Amber Rae (14:57):
Yeah, I think acceptance is a big piece and
it's, it's.
I am getting so many messagesfrom women right now.
Um, I feel guilty wanting moreand I think it's so interesting.
Or, you know, we're not thatintimate or I don't feel that
connected to him, but he's goodto my kids, even though he's,
you know not, I don't feelcloseness with him, like, should
(15:20):
I feel guilty wanting more?
And, and I think we do like, asa way to persevere, we accept,
we like accept what is, um, andyou know, but what I'm hearing
you say is that you, you had to,yeah, you had to accept that.
That's just the way that youthought love was going to be.
And I'm curious, though, likewhat, what, what for you, if you
(15:43):
were accepting this like oldstory of love, what then brought
in this, this more expandedversion?
Because you said you had tolike kind of accept, and I so,
but it sounds like you've nowexpanded into something
different.
What, what shifted for you toexpand into that new story?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (16:02):
um, my my partner treated me really
badly in certain ways and I'vetold this like story on the
podcast a lot, but he part ofwhat part of what I was
accepting was that I was kind ofhis mother in an emotional
sense and I was also his captivein another sense and um.
I that kills romantic love,right, like that kills sexual
(16:23):
intimacy.
But because I had always kindof been avoidant, I was like, oh
, this is just what happens inrelationships and this is just
what happens for me.
I rescued myself from thatfeeling in conjunction with my
friends who were like hisbehavior is not okay.
And it came time for me to getmarried and I had seen a lot of
nasty divorces and I was like Ibasically there was this whole
(16:45):
like it all blew up at one pointand I got out of it.
And then with my, I met mycurrent fiance very quickly
after, like three months after.
And you know, I think actuallysome of the resignation I had in
my previous relationship washelpful.
(17:06):
I no longer idealized love tothe same extent.
I was able to come back down toearth a little bit, but Jason
just gave me a sense of likefreedom and authenticity and
like in protection that I wasfinally in a place to really
appreciate and actually likefeel was romantic and like
(17:28):
sexual energy for me.
Um, yeah, so I I kind of thankmy first part not him, but like
that first relationship forfreeing me from the idea that
love had to be my big rescuerand that it had to be absolutely
dazzling and like, oh my God,amazing, and put me in a
position to really appreciatehow love can be just lovely,
(17:52):
just like lovely.
Most of the time, and, yeah,and I don't know, I just I have
much more of a sense of likepeace and my mind is clear and
I'm still attracted to him, andthat was a mega, mega relief,
yeah, but yeah, I would.
I would, I would love to hearreally relate to me.
You looked into your futurehusband's eyes and saw what
(18:15):
there?
It sounds like you.
You saw aliveness there.
Um, what was this?
I felt, yeah, what was the kind?
Amber Rae (18:23):
of unfolding.
I felt a lot, ms Bair.
It was like this I felt aconnection that I'd honestly
never felt before, which waselectric but calm, and it was
just this, this feeling of kindof hello again.
And I think having felt thething that was missing entirely
(18:45):
from my nine-year relationshiphad me kind of wake up to oh,
this is what it's supposed tofeel like.
And I didn't, you know, myfirst thought was, oh, maybe in
another life, like I didn'tthink I was going to blow
everything up for this stranger.
But I was so taken by how thatfelt and how important that it
(19:08):
felt to feel that sort ofconnection, and it kind of led
to a curiosity and an awakeningaround like, OK, what's really
going on in my marriage and whydon't I feel that?
And it just it became themirror for me to look honestly
and at my relationship and thestories I was telling myself
about it.
And I can relate to a lot ofwhat you're saying, jacqueline,
(19:31):
because I really romanticizelove and I, you know not having
role models around love.
I looked to romantic comediesand it was like sweeping
gestures of love and you know, Ithink of even how my first
husband proposed.
It was like horses, sunset ATVs, climbing butterfly gardens.
It was, you know these over thetop our wedding.
(19:53):
So over the top it was.
It was kind of let's, let's.
We didn't know how to do loveso we had to, like, show love.
And you know, in my, myrelationship now it's so much
more simple Keep proposed in ourbackyard after a meditation.
Didn't need to be this wholething because we knew that the
(20:16):
love was there and the love wasreal.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:19):
How do you for the, for people who are
listening, who are in theserelationships, maybe long-term,
that they're not sure you know,they don't, they, it doesn't
feel as, um, you know, maybe itdoesn't, there's not, it's not
that like electric butterfliesall the time and, um, they, they
(20:43):
might feel you know that energywith someone new.
Amber Rae (20:46):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:47):
How do you, how do you, piece apart?
When is it like okay, it'sreally time to leave my current
relationship or is it time to,you know, revamp what we have?
Like?
How do?
The question people always askis how do we know when to get
out Right?
How do we know that it's likethe the relationship is broken,
(21:07):
versus like this is newrelationship energy?
We have this like attraction tosomeone new which has its own
feelings to it.
Besides, for like someone thatyou're working on a long-term
relationship with, right, it'sso hard to tell.
Amber Rae (21:21):
Yeah, you know, I don't feel electric butterflies
blooms, you know, in the sameway with my husband.
Now it's, it's evolved intosomething more stable, more sure
, more um, more, more contained,I think, which is which is
healthy.
More contained, I think, whichis healthy.
(21:44):
I will say, if there's no worldright now where I would notice
or be attracted or feel thatwith anyone else because I feel
so secure and met within themarriage that you know, I think,
if someone, if you're feeling,you know, electric connection
with someone else, that pointsto some insecurity within your
current dynamic and something tolook at.
So you know, for me, when I didmeet him, I was like oh, wow,
(22:05):
yeah, there is something brokenin this relationship and so I
need to look honestly at thatand I need to speak actually
honestly to my.
So I was very transparent andopen and then began an open
dialogue with my ex-partner, Um,while I was like trying to
figure out my feelings and whatwas going on with John.
It was, I mean, it was, it wascrazy to be like holding both Um
.
But you know, I think the adviceto people like when to get out,
(22:27):
is like, okay, my friend ViennaFarron, she's a, she's a
therapist.
She says sometimes the healingis in the going and sometimes
the healing is in the staying,and it's important that we look
at our relationships to endingsand stains.
And so you know, for example,I'm someone who tends to
overstay People.
Please harmonize.
I don't want to disappoint orhurt people, so I'll hurt myself
(22:49):
, I'll abandon myself withouteven realizing I'm abandoning
myself because I don't want tolet someone down.
And so you know thatoverstaying pattern means I
sustain and put up with, youknow, behavior that may not feel
great for me, because I almost,like, don't know better and
I've been trained in tolerance,in a way, and instead of
tolerating, I've realized thebad behavior of the
(23:12):
disconnection or the lack ofvulnerability or the lacks of
sexual relationship.
I realized that I had totolerate the discomfort of
someone being disappointed in mespeaking my truth or in me
acting on something that isright and true for me, even if
they disapprove or disagree.
And so you know, I think forsomeone, if you're finding
(23:33):
familiarity in that narrative,I'm always the one who who
overstays, you know, I think,get curious about that.
How is that showing up in therelationship?
Is this an opportunity to voicea need to say hey, I feel
really disconnected to you or,hey, this need is long gone.
I'm not like I don't want tojust be intimate, you know, once
a year, twice a year, I it'svery important to me.
(23:53):
And then, like you can try toput the work into the
relationship.
And sometimes people can meetyou there and sometimes they
can't.
And so you know, I think, um,esther Perel, at one point, you
know, actually had aconversation with her, um, so
jealous, and you know she saidwell, your marriage is over, do
(24:14):
you like to begin a new one?
And sometimes I think peoplecan begin a new one and
sometimes I think people canbegin a new marriage within
their marriage.
And I think sometimes growthmeans growing apart and you
actually can't grow within thatcontainer and it just.
You know, after nine years ofefforting and also then becoming
aware of my own unconsciouspatterns that had led me to
(24:35):
choose this relationship, Irealized that growth here means
growing apart.
And in a lot of ways I had likereally tried to get some needs
met and like had some thingsthat were just like really did
not like move, like could nothandle that.
There was no change around.
And so you know it's such apersonal decision, it's such a
(24:56):
layered decision, it's such anuanced decision and I think, uh
, looking at the saying, theleaving, and really like
connecting with that wise voicewithin you that knows, um, which
I know can require a lot of.
There's going to be a lot offear.
That gets the way of hearingthat intuition, a lot of anxiety
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:17):
Um are some places to be gone yeah, I mean,
I think that makes so much sense.
I was thinking about my ex, myex-husband, and that that was a
whole saga, but it was reallylike a mind fuck in a way,
because I kept being like wewere having a hard time, we were
(25:37):
disconnected in different areas, like he wasn't um, he wasn't
working, he wasn't pursuing ajob or really contributing to
moving towards, like making afamily, what I, what I dreamed
of.
And I kept thinking for years Iwas like you know, we're just
going through a hard time, or wegot to work on it, or marriage
is hard and you can't geteverything you want.
(26:01):
And I do like I don't regret.
Like, looking back, I was like,oh, I wish I held my standards
higher or something.
But like back then you don'tknow Right, you don't know what
you have to sacrifice, because,like, not one person can't be
everything right, like there areparts of a relationship that
are going to feel not perfect orconnected, and I do believe
(26:24):
that some people can come backfrom that and start anew in
their relationship and it it waskind of strange to be like,
okay, how much longer do I waitfor this to transform or get out
Like, is it?
You know, am I?
Am I just shortchanging it andnot giving this a chance to
reach the potential it can be,or should I have gotten out in
(26:49):
the beginning?
And it's just that part goingback and forth in that was so
hard, it took so long.
Amber Rae (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I had dinner with one of my best
friends recently and she waslike, oh, amber, you were asking
questions for you and I waslike I was Tell me, you know,
and she's like you were, youwould you'd like sit on your
couch and have a glass of wineand you'd be like, is it weird
that we don't really have sex?
Or like I don't really, youknow, she's like you had a lot
(27:19):
of like.
There was a whole doubt,dialogue going on for many years
.
So it's you know, and I, Ithink part of.
We live in a culture that tellsus to stay no matter what.
Stay for the kids.
Figure it out.
Like marriage is hard.
You make it work, and so Ithink there's an opportunity to
like like I don't regret thosenine years.
(27:40):
I don't wish that I go back andthink I maybe should have left
earlier, because that's how mystory unfolded.
You know, I'm the mother of anine month old who now exists
because of the perfect timing ofeverything, and I look at him
and I'm like you're so meant tobe my son, you know.
But I do think if we can takethe shame away from leaving and
like instead, be like, okay,this relationship is complete.
(28:01):
Let's celebrate that.
Like wow, like what?
Like look at what you were ableto accomplish in the container
of this love.
Like whether that's just likehealing old wounds or
identifying patterns.
Like we only learn throughexperience.
Clarity comes through action,like you know, and and we get
wounded in relationships, so wehave to heal in relationships
and so you know, I think theidea that we have to be with one
(28:25):
person forever is often whatcan stifle us and hold us back
and think that like it's bad orshameful if we have to leave,
it's like no, celebrate it.
You grew as a person.
Bad or shameful if we have toleave, it's like no, celebrate
it.
You grew as a person.
You're now more aware and nowyou get to step into a life
where you know you find someonewho's a better fit for you now,
(28:45):
at this moment.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (28:45):
The stigma around divorce is
interesting because it'saccepted fact that in order to
get married, we have to date,and usually those relationships
are short term.
But suddenly, if marriage or arelationship is nine years and
then it ends that scene as afailure instead of like you guys
made it nine years, oh my gosh,like that's a lot more work and
a lot more success than thetwo-year relationship, right?
(29:07):
It just happens to have thisword marriage appended to it and
like potentially a legaldocument.
One of the ways that I oh, I'munder God.
Amber Rae (29:17):
You're what it's the vows under god.
Right as I, I've been tellingmy story more publicly.
There's, you know, a lot ofpeople saying that I I am satan
and I'm deaf because I made vowsunder god, and to to break
those vows is the is theultimate.
Like you're satan, satan kitty,we're interviewing Satan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:40):
How fucking cool is that?
I mean pretty cool, but alsothere's a lot of Satan going
around.
If we just tie that to like oh,half the marriage.
I mean the Coldplay concert, Imean, come on, you know.
I mean there's so many peoplewho leave their marriage.
What are you talking about?
It's more than half.
Amber Rae (29:57):
All right was like okay, but these, the people in
this comment section, is whypeople stay in things that
they've long outgrown I, I wannayeah, I do want to ask you
about that in just a second.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (30:08):
One of the ways that I knew that jason
was right for me was and thishas become like accepted kind of
instagram therapist speak.
But my body definitely knewbefore I was willing to speak it
or to act on it.
Like I in my relationship withmy ex, I couldn't take a full in
breath.
It was like there was a cap onmy breath and I I went on Lex,
(30:29):
like I went on an SSRI to calmthe anxiety, and I just chalked
it up to oh, this is my likeavoidant attachment style, which
I didn't, I don't even think Ihad, but I just chalked it up to
oh, this is my like avoidantattachment style, which I didn't
, I don't even think I had, butI was like this is just me
struggling to stay committed,when in fact, I think I had just
met many men who were not theright one and my body was like
(30:58):
they're not the right dude, getout.
And then I met Jason and like,yeah, sure, there were
butterflies and all of that, butI think more than that, my body
is just relaxed, like when I amwith him I feel safest, most
joyful most.
At peace I can breathe thefullest.
Did you have that experience atall Over nine years?
It's a little different.
Amber Rae (31:10):
I mean I felt safe with him in a way that one feels
safe with a friend, but therewas a lot that I there was a lot
of like holding my breath, likefeeling you know, there my body
was definitely communicatingwith me.
I was breaking out in rashes,oh, um, I had eczema and rashes
that when I left my marriagecompletely went away, and so I
(31:33):
feel like my body was definitelytrying to get my attention and
say like this isn't it?
And you're not listening, and Ican relate to like just the
yeah, the sense of peace, thenervous system that feels so
safe and at peace.
Like now and I mean honestly itwas.
Sometimes I'm like, oh, thissounds like.
When I looked into his eyes Iknew he was my person, like my
(31:56):
body and my intuition were likethere he is, he's the father of
your children, like let's go.
Maybe you're going to blow upyour life.
Come on, what are you waitingfor?
Like that was like truthspeaking.
But then, of course, fear waslike you're psycho, he's a
stranger, everyone will hate you, you're going to be shamed.
You're like here are all thereasons why this is inconvenient
(32:17):
and terrible timing.
And like you know, yada, yada,yada.
But like body, knew and youknow.
Eventually took me about sixweeks, but I listened to my body
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:27):
It's, it's crazy, like the wisdom of our
bodies.
I mean, maybe they did.
Yeah, we just got to payattention to that so much more
because there's just like suchcrazy rates of like GI problems,
hormone imbalances, all thesethings that women are struggling
with.
And yet, like the three of ushave had experiences where our
bodies were like nope and ourminds were like just we're going
(32:49):
to make this work body, come on, you know, get, get, get going
have sex.
And I couldn't get pregnant withmy ex husband.
We tried for two years and then, as soon as I got with my
current husband, we got pregnantalmost immediately.
So it just our bodies just know, and I'm curious, what you're,
the, what I call the, the, thecurtain, pulling the curtain
(33:12):
experience, where you have thatmoment of clarity and then
you're like like looking back oneverything and it just is like
one of those clarifyingexperience where you have that
moment of clarity and thenyou're like like looking back on
everything and it just is likeone of those clarifying moments
where you see the matrix code oryou see like pull the curtain
back.
Well, tell us, like the, whatthat was like.
Like that day, what did you do,like did you have conversations
with your?
(33:33):
Did you go back and saysomething to him, like what
happened?
What happened when the curtainwas pulled for you?
Amber Rae (33:40):
I mean so that I mean that night.
So the day I met John, he waswith two friends, but it was a
this meeting.
He just tagged along for it andthey were supposed to be there
for an hour and five and a halfor six hours later they leave.
And when they left I turned tomy then husband.
I said I just met a soulmateleave.
And when they left I turned tomy then husband.
I said I just been soulmate.
It was like, oh my god, he wasthere.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, my my husbandwas there.
(34:01):
When I met my now husband, theywere there for the moment
together.
Did he see it?
Did he go?
Oh well, he like later said themoment he saw us see each other
, he knew our marriage was over.
Um, wow which I think goes toshow that we both knew the
marriage had been long over.
And it wasn't him, he was justthe catalyst for what was
(34:22):
already there.
But yeah, I like I, the energywas or the, the connection was
so palpable between him and Ithat it's so undeniable that I
and I wasn't like and now I'mgonna blow everything up and
leave you and blah, blah, blah.
I was just like I just met asoulmate, like I was like,
almost like because he was,because of I don't know, it was
like I couldn't not say it andhe, in what he said I'll never
(34:48):
forget.
He said I saw that wasbeautiful to witness and I think
there was real like beauty andsurrender in in that and like
truth and like I actually thinkhe thought it was beautiful.
Um, because I, you know, andthere was, we went for a roller
coaster of emotions, but I dothink my ex, he wanted, you know
(35:11):
, he was committed tounconditional love and he wanted
, we both wanted each other toexperience, you know, a depth of
connection and I, you know,there was a moment a few weeks
later where he came to me.
He's like I feel like I met myJohn, I just like had this
experience with this woman.
I had my hand on her thigh andI thought, oh my God, if you
walk in the room and I'd beterrified, and I like, as he's
(35:32):
telling me this, I was like I'mso happy for you, I want you to
experience that, and I don'tmean it to be me, you know.
And so it was like it was sucha wild moment of us like just
kind of discovering and beinghonest together.
And you know, there were a lotof like.
So what was crazy is that,because I was like, oh well,
(35:54):
john can't be my life partner.
I then made him my creativepartner in the project with my
husband, so the three of us werethen collaborating on a project
together.
I mean it was like it's crazy,that's awesome.
Did they get along?
They did, and like the three ofus together had like really
like we were making all thesethings happen and people were
wanting to invest, and likeartists, and like it was just
(36:17):
like things were, things wereflowing, um, and then, like we
all kind of began naming what'strue together.
Very strange experience, wow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:26):
That's so cool and that's so, so
respectful.
Have you, have you guys seen um?
You've got mail that old wroteromantic comedy with um Tom
Hanks and um Meg?
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (36:38):
You're shaking your head, meg Ryan?
No, I thought I had, but I haveseen it, of course, right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:43):
This is like a classic.
There was a moment where she'slike with Greg Kinnear and you
know she's falling in love withTom Hanks over email, over like
pen pal email and then they goout to dinner and they go.
There's this beautiful momentwhere they're starting to talk
and she was like wait a minute,you don't love me.
(37:03):
And he goes and she says Idon't love you either.
And then they just starttalking about who they might be
in love with otherwise and itjust sometimes it's just like
that's the dream that you've gotwhere it's like this you don't
have.
I mean, I'm sure it's painful,I'm sure it was painful for many
reasons, but it's for thechange and the transition.
(37:23):
But it's so beautiful that allof you could just recognize that
this is, this was just.
You know, it's nothing personalor it doesn't mean anything bad
about him, it just.
This is bigger than either anyof three of you.
Yeah, yeah, Wow.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (37:43):
What, what was, uh?
What was John's reaction whenhe looked into your eyes?
I mean, was this felt on bothsides?
Amber Rae (37:50):
Yeah, it was, and I didn't know that initially, um,
I thought I was justexperiencing something, um, but
he later told me that he becauseand he saw, he saw me walk
towards a green, this blue,flowy dress, and he saw me walk
toward their car, and so hespotted me before I spotted him
and kind of had a feeling oflike and in he was you know, he
(38:11):
was he's like.
It wasn't like a sexual charge,like heat energy, it was like
this, like calm, like whoa, likethis, what is this?
So, yeah, he did have the sameexperience as I did.
That's fucking cool.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (38:25):
Yeah, I am really struck by your ex's
reaction and your reaction tohim, where we it's like we're
trained to expect that if wearen't meant to be together then
there has to be this, like youknow, rejection and abandonment
and our ego has to be hurt.
And you, I know before you metJohn, you were very into the
(38:45):
wellness space and kind of theintention, integrity, kind of
messages, and I guess if youwere business partners you
must've been as well.
Did your kind of philosophies,life philosophies, help lend
itself to this or?
Amber Rae (39:00):
we were recent business partners.
We hadn't been.
This was just we were buildinga slam party.
But yeah, I think somethingthat united us for sure was like
our.
We wanted to live in a worldwhere every person could be
their highest true self, and soso, and we I remember we were
reading the book the SurrenderExperiment when this all went
(39:20):
down.
So I do think, you know, wewere in a place where there was
like an openness and receptivity, a sense of surrender, a sense
of trust, not to say that likeego rejection, abandonment, like
those things weren't felt orexperienced along the way,
because there were, you know,all kinds of.
You know, at one point my thenhusband tracks down John at a
(39:41):
coffee shop.
It's like are you falling inlove with my wife?
You know, like there was, therewas definitely drama.
I know it's all in the book,but like it, at least it was
open.
You know there was no.
And I think, in in some way,the three of us didn't know what
was going to happen, but weknew that if we voiced our truth
(40:04):
, that was going to align us allto the right thing, even if we
didn't know what it was yet.
Like I didn't know if John wasthe great catalyst for me to
leave this marriage, that Ineeded to leave um, or if he was
going to be the great love ofmy life, Didn't know.
I just knew that, like I'mvoicing what's true as it's
unfolding, and I'm going totrust that that's going to take
me where I need to go.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (40:26):
So what happened next?
What happened next?
So you, you all, start workingtogether as um three business
partners.
And then did you admitsomething to John, did you leave
your marriage for like how?
Amber Rae (40:37):
We, john and I, went on a little.
We were looking at land and wewere like doing a, because he we
went to just like a furniturestudio and we're looking at
design pieces, and because I wasgoing to make him my creative
partner and he was going toinvest in this project, I said
to him, like okay, I just Ican't leave this unsaid.
I just need to voice that thenight I met you, I like felt
(40:58):
this really strong connection.
Am I crazy?
Am I making this up?
And there were so many likethere were so many
synchronicities happening andserendipities happening that
like I couldn't even includethem all in the book because it
would make it sound like a verycheesy love story.
It was like like too manyshooting stars, you know.
Like it was like the universewas like pay attention, you know
.
And so he then said to me um,and I bring that up because
(41:22):
there's this like moment, butit's too long to explain.
He then says to me no, I'm,you're not making this up and
I'm so glad you said something,because I did.
I had this feeling of I've justmet my soulmate and he's like,
and I'll be honest, I like went,went back to my friend's house
that night and told my friend,you know, like why is the
universe showing me this personwho's like so clearly meant to
(41:44):
be my person, but he's notavailable?
And you know what he?
What?
He interpreted that as okay.
Well, I guess she's showing melike the type of person that I'm
going to call in.
And this is actually teachingyou what unconditional love
looks like, because I know thatI love her and I like, like I
just want so much goodness forthis person, but I don't need to
(42:04):
possess her.
Maybe the lesson here is likelove without possession, um and
so, you know, and then I waslike, okay, you know.
And then like, okay, let's dothis.
And then I, you know, I thinkwe, we tried.
And then I was like, oh no,there there's, there's real
feelings here.
I also think he thought thiswoman's in a happy marriage and
was not available.
So, like you know, and then Ithink, once he started to
(42:27):
realize, wait, maybe this isn'tquite what I thought it was, and
I started to be like, as we allkind of walked down this road
together and as my ex was kindof like, actually, you guys,
hanging out is really helpful Irealized I've been vetting
myself and, like you, takingcare of her emotional needs and,
like you know, I'm like get togo do more work and I really
(42:47):
liked it.
So it was just like a crazy,crazy series of events.
A crazy, crazy series of events.
And are you still in contactwith your ex?
We, um, you know, like thathe's now he remarried.
Um, he's now actually the landhas become their thing, um, down
(43:09):
in mexico.
Um, we, you know the?
I got flowers when my son wasborn, you know things like that,
not thrilled about the book.
Okay, I'll be honest, I waswondering and, like you know, I
told him I'm going to write abook about this and he was like,
of course, you're going towrite a book about this.
I like, I know who I married,like, why, duh?
(43:29):
And then, I think, when it cametime to the book coming out,
and you know perhaps, he saidthat when he wasn't in a
relationship and now he'smarrying as a new person.
Um, and he is a main characterin the memoir, greg, he's not
named.
You can't even like Google andfind anything.
So I like, you know I've, I'veleft, you know, so it's, he's
just, you know, a man in a story, um, and this has been part of
(43:56):
my work of being like okay, hedisapproves of me doing this.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (43:57):
This person that I like nine years of
my life with, that I like careabout, disapproves, but this is
my story and this is my truthand I have to tell it, and so I
had to be like, okay, I have totolerate that discomfort well I
remember I I might misrememberthis, but I I feel like I
remember a post where youadmitted on social media that
you'd met somebody new and thatyour relationship was over, and
(44:20):
I, I remember I don't know if itif you were acknowledging that,
maybe people would judge you,or there seemed to be something
a little bit nervous about thepost.
Yeah, um, I don't know ifthat's true or if it was me
being like is this?
Is there a new dude?
Amber Rae (44:35):
what happened to the old one, but I mentioned that
the marriage was over and I wasdefinitely nervous okay, you got
those things right.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (44:45):
what was that?
I mean I've I, you know, I havea fraction of the followers you
do, but it was on, you know,reality and so it got like tons
of the internet hate and allthat.
So I know how terrifying it isto break the news about
something on the internet andespecially, you know, with your
life, where mine, you know minecame from a reality TV which is
(45:06):
messy and they expect us to fuckup and, you know, make
disastrous choices.
Yours was much more likepositive and inspirational and
all this.
And so talking about a divorce,I mean, satan's divorce must
have been really scary for you.
So what, what was that like?
Amber Rae (45:22):
Well, I will say, initially people were very
because this was a couple ofyears ago.
This is, I didn't.
I was, you know.
I said I left my marriage and II can't remember the exact
details, but I basically no,actually maybe I did say oh no,
I came out in the post sayingthat I was with someone new.
I left out the detail that I'dmet him while married.
In that post, um, and I thinkthat was more because I realized
(45:46):
, like, as someone who has kindof told the truth about their
life on the internet for a longtime, I realized that, like I
don't have to, I can share, Ican be discerning when I share
it, because our relationship wasnew and I get to protect what's
ours and, like you know, therewill come a time where I want to
tell the whole story and Iwasn't ready to tell the whole
story yet, um, but there wasdefinitely like definitely fear
(46:09):
of judgment around how quickly Imoved on.
You know all that.
But I remember being verynervous posting it, but it was
also.
I felt deeply relieved and atpeace because it was my truth
and the you know I felt fair, mycommunity came and was
incredibly supportive and so Ihaven't really gotten all the
(46:33):
backlash until now that I'mtelling the full story and I'm
glad because I've had the time.
You know, I think whensomething triggers me, um, you
know people are like how dareyou leave your marriage for
another man?
That doesn't trigger me.
Now it used to trigger mebecause I shamed myself for
doing that.
And so I had to work through myown shame about my story.
(46:55):
So now when people havethoughts like because I've
worked through it and I likehave you know realized that like
life happens, I, you know thisis just happened to be the way
that my story unfolded and likewhy you know kind of who cares,
you know know it's, I'm not astriggered by the backlash.
If that makes sense, that'sgreat.
(47:17):
Yeah, it's like it's all in me,it's all like a okay,
something's really upsetting me.
Someone did recently say, um,like I wonder how your ex feels
about this, and that one got mebecause I was like, oh yeah, I
do kind of feel bad.
You know this is, can't youknow, being the character in
someone else's memoir, eventhough you're not named and no
one knows.
Most of the world won't knowwho you are.
I can imagine it would be anuncomfortable experience.
(47:38):
So I like I had to look at thatand be like okay.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (47:42):
Yeah, that is the writer's dilemma,
always, I feel.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:47):
Absolutely Well, tell us about the process
of writing this book.
I mean, you know, tell us aboutthe process of writing this
book.
I mean, you know, tell, tell usthe title again.
But what was it like to writeabout all of this and process it
, reflect on it in thisparticular and be be open about
it in public?
Did you say?
Say the title again Also?
Yeah, just just for if anyoneforgot what it's called.
Amber Rae (48:09):
Lovable is the title.
I mean the writing.
As a writer, writing is thespace of healing, cathis
transformation.
It's.
You know, when you put pen topaper, there is something really
powerful and sacred that canhappen.
It's it's like an elkin processof alchemy, and I teach a lot
of writing workshops and myprocess is always like first I,
(48:32):
I write the bad draft, which isjust like get it down, it
doesn't need to be great.
Trying to write a great piece ofwriting is only going to get
you to not write at all.
And then my second draft iswhat I call the brave draft.
And the brave draft is where Igo in and I say where can I be
more honest?
What truth am I not saying?
How can I have this be, youknow, the most honest depiction
(48:52):
of what was happening inside ofme and what you know, what was
happening in that moment?
And I always say write like noone will read it.
And this is, I think, the mostessential thing, because when we
have other people, what will hethink?
What will my mom think if Ishare this story?
Is he going to be uncomfortablebeing featured in my memoir?
(49:14):
If those questions are in thewriting room, we're not going to
get good stuff on the page, soI had to write the first draft
and tell the story exactly as Ineeded to tell it.
My John, my husband, did notread the book until it was done,
and that's I didn't even want.
Even though he was aparticipant in the story and
(49:35):
knew he was going to be featuredin this book, I didn't want to
write the book that I thought hewould like and want to read.
He also has a different literarytaste than me.
I wanted to write the book thatI needed to write and so, and
you know, and it was connected,the writing the book helped me,
like, connect the dots of mypast and like under, like I
didn't even realize mystepfather was abusive until I
was writing the book and I waslike, oh my God, that was
abusive and oh my God, that'swhy that happened.
(49:58):
So it's like, you know, writingcan be this powerful healing
process for us and we need tohave the space to really
experience that feeling.
And if we're editing our story,then we can't look honestly at
our story and so much of healingcomes through being able to see
our stories accurately.
So that's, you know, that'sreally what the process was.
(50:18):
And then I think you know, onceyou've written the truest thing
on that you can possibly write,then you can go back and be
like, is that story necessary?
Like, do I need to bring inmore compassion for my mom?
Do I?
You know, like, whatever,whatever those questions are,
and so, like, the edit is whereyou can take things out.
Um, but, you gotta write first,like no one's going to.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (50:44):
I need to take one of your workshops
because I used to be a hugewriter and I've felt blocked for
so long now we will unblock you.
Amber Rae (50:51):
I am okay, I queen of unblocking.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (50:54):
Oh, that's what I need.
That would be amazing.
All right, well Kivi.
Any last questions?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:02):
No, this has been fascinating.
I'm just like just getting toknow you, but so happy that
you've had this.
You know, like it's just such athere's so many people who just
feel imprisoned in theirrelationship and I I do.
I do see there's two sides ofit.
There are, there are people whoare just like if you're in a
toxic relationship, badrelationship, get out and
(51:24):
there's something to be said for, um, that other side which is
just like, hey, I've, I've beenthrough, I have a really bad
model of love and security andsafety and these other things
were important to me.
I just didn't, I just like itwas scary to let go of, to shoot
(51:44):
for something else, right?
So I also want to say that it'shard for people who feel stuck
in a relationship to say youknow like there are reasons why
you're in what you're in, butthen how do you know whether,
when, to like step off into thegreat unknown and and give
yourself shots?
So I'm just it's been amazingto hear the story and that it
(52:06):
worked out so beautifully.
Amber Rae (52:08):
Thank you.
Yeah, this conversation hasbeen a lot of fun.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (52:12):
All right.
Well, when does Lovable hit theshelves?
Amber Rae (52:16):
Lovable is out in the world August 5th, available
everywhere books are sold, so Idon't know when this is going
live, but in a week and you can,yeah, buy it anywhere books are
sold.
You can follow me on Instagram,heyamberray, and my website.
Amber Ray has all the goodies,all the writing workshops, all
the things.
Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull (52:36):
By accessing this podcast, I
acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast the information,
opinions and recommendationspresented in this podcast are
for general information only andany reliance on the information
provided in this podcast isdone at your own risk.
This podcast, and any and allcontent or services, available
(52:58):
on or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment advice diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
(53:18):
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911.
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