Interview with Dr. Jordan Quaglia: The Science of We-Care beyond Self-Care

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends
the podcast for people withloved ones struggling with
mental health.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people you love.
Cool of Mine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
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most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs or setting boundaries,even if you're just curious and

(00:28):
want to chat about it.
Book a free call with me bygoing to the link in the show
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started.
Thank you, and enjoy the show.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Hello, little helpers .
Today we have a different kindof topic.
It's called we Care, which is anew term for us, and we're
excited to learn more about it.
So we have our guest, Dr JordanQualia.
He has spent over a decaderesearching and teaching on
topics like mindfulness,compassion and boundaries all
things that we like here on thispodcast.
He is an associate professor ofpsychology at Naropa University
, where he directs the Cognitiveand Effective Science

(01:08):
Laboratory, and is researchdirector for its Center for
Advancement of ContemplativeEducation.
He's also co-developed andregularly teaches an eight-week
compassion training curriculumfor hundreds of individuals.
It's actually something that Ishould probably learn more about
, so we're very happy to haveyou here.
Can you tell us what is WeCare?

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be on here and,as we spoke about a little bit
in advance, just to be in thepresence of two people who are
also passionate about the socialside of mental health.
So thank you both for allyou're doing to uplift that
topic, and I think that's reallywhat WeCare is about.
You know, my journey to WeCarebegan a long time ago, probably

(01:51):
like both of you, I think.
I, looking back, see, I wasalways passionate about the
science of mental health andflourishing.
But it wasn't until I was aclient in psychotherapy myself
which helped me sort of overcomepanic attacks, actually when I
was an undergraduate in collegethat I became more passionate
about mental health and mentalhealth care.
And then, as I stayed inpsychotherapy as a client not

(02:13):
only sort of overcoming mentaldistress in that kind of more
severe way I discovered thatpsychotherapy could be a vehicle
for growing my level offlourishing.
And these days at NaropaUniversity, I often talk about
how therapy can even be seen asa kind of contemplative practice
, and so we might talk aboutthat or a mindfulness practice.

(02:34):
So even you know when we're notworking on something really
specific like healing from panicdisorder or panic attacks or
something.
There's this potential fortherapy to still help us on our
journey in life.
So, anyways, that got meinterested in becoming a
therapist myself, like you twonow do, except I didn't end up

(02:55):
going in that direction forreasons that I'll explain.
Basically, at a certain pointin my training, I was in a
master's program in counselingpsychology.
Point in my training.
I was in a master's program incounseling psychology.
At a certain point, and this was15 years ago now, I started to
encounter some unexpectedchallenges of sitting with
clients who were in distress andspecifically, I noticed it was
really difficult for me to sortof balance my sense of

(03:18):
self-attunement with attuning tothe other person when they were
especially in sort of momentsof heightened distress.
And I thought, well, this isthe whole job.
You know I'm supposed to begood at this, and there was a
lot of discussion at that timearound okay, you need to
cultivate healthy boundaries.
And I was like, well, how doyou actually do that?
And so I, in my sort ofconfused state, I pivoted my

(03:43):
career totally in the directionof research and to be honest, I
think, to give myself credit, itwasn't just about like kind of
getting away from or avoidingbecoming a therapist.
I also really enjoyed doingresearch.
I had done it in my past and Irecognized, I thought that I had
a greater potential to sort ofoffer value, a greater potential
to sort of offer value Even tomy colleagues.

(04:04):
At that time I thought, if Ican understand this problem that
I'm facing and sort of how tocultivate healthy boundaries,
what healthy boundaries are, allof that, then maybe I can, you
know, find insights that aregoing to be relevant to
therapists more broadly andhelping professionals in general
, and maybe you know eveneveryday kind of life.
And so, yeah, I pivoted mycareer in that direction.

(04:27):
I got a PhD in experimentalpsychology and now I direct a
lab at Naropa University that'sfocused on this sort of well.
Among other things, it's focusedon how do we balance self-care
with care for others, which Inow think about and write about
as WeCare.
And so one way of understandingwe Care is to kind of look at

(04:47):
just how self-care has evolved.
Already in modern society.
The self-care has had such amajor impact on society.
I mean it's kind of wild howpopular and ubiquitous this
concept has become, especiallywhen you look at it historically
.
Self-care evolved initiallyfrom being a medical term, right
, it was assigned to people likeyou need to do this kind of if

(05:07):
you're a diabetic, you need to,you know, administer insulin or
monitor your blood sugar levelsthat kind of self-care.
So you're being a kind ofcultural touchstone during the
civil rights movement and reallyan act, or it was seen as a
kind of revolution, havingrevolutionary importance.
And then today it's just keptevolving and expanding.
You know, it was again likesort of evolved to be something

(05:30):
that helped address patterns ofimbalanced care in helping
professions, which I think it'sstill useful in that context.
But now it's a sort of go-towell-being practice for
literally everyone.
And I started to ask myself, youknow, is this the end point in
the evolution of self-care?

(05:51):
Like, have we reached, you know, like peak self-care, or is
there something beyond self-care, like what comes after
self-care?
And so for me, wecare is theanswer to that.
And we Care is essentially, youknow, it expands upon the idea
of self-care, so it's notleaving self-care behind, and I
think it's really important toclarify that at the outset.
Like, we Care is not going toinvolve compromising the quality

(06:15):
or depth of someone's self-care, it's actually going to
increase it, it's going toinvite you into deeper levels of
self-care and maybe even moreself-care than you're currently
doing.
But yeah, in contrast toself-care, we Care is about
caring for a we and, importantly, that we is flexible so it can
encompass, you know, just us onthis.

(06:36):
Call this we that we'reexperiencing.
It could be like the we of yourfamily, the we of your town or
community, but it could alsoexpand beyond that and so we can
talk about how it's possible tokind of expand our sense of we
over time.
But it's important to maintainthe flexibility of we, because
there are certain moments wherewe needs to sort of come back

(06:57):
down to the level of I'm justlooking out for myself so that I
can care for others.
That's a kind of we care aswell.
Self so that I can care forothers.
That's a kind of we care aswell.
So, in essence, we care isabout transforming the sense of
either or between like either Icare for myself or I'm caring
for others, from a kind of innerconflict or dilemma into a both
and practice in which werecognize that our self-care can

(07:21):
energize and uplift our carefor others and we also see the
connection between our care forothers, sort of lending meaning
and purpose to our self-care anda metaphor.
I don't know if I'm speaking toomuch, but I'll just say one
more thing might be helpful.
A metaphor that I like to useis breathing.
So we can mentally divide thebreath into in-breath and

(07:41):
out-breath and we canconceptually do that.
But the in-breath andout-breath are parts of one
interconnected system and Ithink that's a good metaphor for
WeCare, in the sense that wecan divide care into self-care
and care for others.
I actually don't think that'ssuch a helpful division and we
can get into that.
I don't think it's the mostimportant division that we
should be making in the conceptof care and compassion and so on

(08:06):
, but we can do that.
We can mentally divide it, butfundamentally they're parts of
one interconnected whole andboth self-care and care for
others are needed to sustain oursense of vitality.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
And it's so cool to see you you know all of your
work manifesting to this point.
I mean we'll plug your bookabout we Care.
And it's just cool because foryou, jacqueline, and people
listening, I met Jordan DrQualia when I was.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
I don't even remember if I was a grad.
I think I was a grad studentand I remember I was interested
in relationships and emotionregulation and I remember
looking around for the peopledoing similar stuff.
I came across your name, Ithink we emailed back and forth
and then I went to the mind andlife retreat, which is this
awesome conference slashmindfulness retreat, where we're

(09:00):
in this like beautifulmonastery with gardens and we're
just wandering around and doingwalking meditation.
I think I sat down at breakfastor something with you and
chatted with you and I rememberthinking like, wow, this guy has
a really nice energy.
It's like really calm and warmand inviting, saying cool stuff.
And then when we, when Irealized who you were, I was

(09:21):
like, oh my God, so fast forward.
And then you were on mydissertation committee and I
just I just really love how youare one of these people who
really recognizes that mentalhealth and relationships are a
thing Like they, they matterright, like though our
relationships actually impactour mental health.

(09:42):
So I think that really, this isreally exciting.
Just in general, I don't wantto say that, thank you.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, and just to say to the context, you know I've
always viewed you as a peer ofmine and for the same reason,
you know, like I recognize, Ithink we both recognize wow,
we're both passionate aboutsimilar things here.
And yeah, I think I was a grad,I think I was a doctoral
student actually, when we wereat that together.
So, and then somehow, yeah, Iended up on your dissertation
committee, which was good funand you did amazing, of course,

(10:13):
so I didn't have to do muchlabor In that case.
That was awesome.
But, yeah, thanks for sayingall that.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, so tell us more .
So WeCare like.
I'm sure you've probably seenand heard about how we all are
talking about self-care onlineand boundaries and all that and
we're going to get into all that.
It's just funny how so much ofthe mental health wellness space
talks about like we got to domore self-care, self-care,

(10:39):
self-care almost like anopposition to know, like burning
yourself out by thinking aboutonly about this other person
that you care about.
So there's really like aneither or.
But tell us what we care lookslike.
If it's not this, like givingeverything to someone else
versus like giving ourselves afew moments to go to therapy or

(11:00):
get a massage or exercise.
That that's quote, quote,self-care.
So tell us like what what wecare actually looks like in
practice.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, great question.
I think you know the ubiquityof self-care and the way that
it's evolved to be pretty muchwhatever you want it to be is, I
think, something that we allrecognize is a little bit of a
problem, but we don't quite knowhow to name it.
It's like we understand thatmost of the time self-care is
helpful to most people and it'sa really valuable part of our

(11:29):
mental health journey, and weCare still honors that and it's
very much wanting to uplift thevalue of self-care.
But I think on the whole, weCare or self-care is a kind of
incomplete lens for assessingsomething really more
fundamental, which is what's theoverall balance or harmony in

(11:49):
our self-care and care forothers in our daily life.
And so when you look atactually how self-aware came
from and how it was initially,at least one of its
instantiations was that it wasto address imbalanced forms of
care in helping professions,which it's still useful in that
context, as I mentioned, we cansee that there's this potential

(12:14):
for self-care to offer that kindof lens for people to get
metacognitive about their care,and I really love that about
self-care, like it's aninvitation to reflect on how am
I approaching care in my dailylife and like is it a balanced
approach?
And okay, it's imbalancedsometimes, like I'm neglecting
my needs as a helpingprofessional and that's

(12:34):
impacting my clients or mypatients or whatever, because
I'm not as resourced as I couldbe.
So for a helping profession,that kind of lens of self-care
is probably the one that needsto be applied first, because the
blind spot I talk about careblind spots in my book the blind
spot tends to be neglectingone's own needs as one
prioritizes the care of others.

(13:08):
In my opinion that's anincomplete lens because
oftentimes that pattern of beingother oriented is a habitual
strategy.
It evolved or was conditionedin a context, you know,
throughout childhood or whatever, and it became a kind of
personality structure or a kindof pattern we can just say a
neutral language that maybesupported well-being early on or
supported keeping harmony inthe family system or that kind

(13:28):
of thing.
But it's not necessarily aconscious form of being other
oriented.
And so helping professions, Ithink, get a message that in
order to correct this imbalancein your care, you should
practice self-care and likethat's all you need to do.
You just practice self-care andnow you've got like a kind of
balance, you know, in your senseof self-care and care for

(13:50):
others, but from a WeCare lens,that's an incomplete solution.
We need to focus on cultivatingmore conscious care in all the
different ways.
We need to identify the variouskinds of blind spots that we
might have in our approach tocare, and that includes, you
know, whatever our preferenceswith regard to caring, there are
people who have a preferencetoward other-oriented care and

(14:12):
there are people that have apreference towards self-caring
probably not the peoplelistening to this podcast or
YouTube.
You know, helping professionstend to have a preference toward
other-oriented care, but weneed to cultivate both kinds of
care and become more consciousabout our relationship to them.
And then we can't even stopthere.
In my view, we need to go tothe level where we're sort of

(14:35):
learning to blend self-care andcare for others.
So, to get back to yourquestion, you know in practice
how this looks is just beingawake to the interconnection
between your self-care and carefor others as you practice it,
and that kind of wakefulnessserves as a kind of inner
compass, and so I like to saythat.

(14:55):
You know, I think the we Caresolution isn't like that.
We toggle back and forthbetween self-care and care for
others to achieve balance.
That's the kind of currentnarrative.
I think that you know, if youare too other-oriented, then at
the end of the day you practiceself-care, and so you're still
in that either-or mindset thoughin your relationship to care

(15:16):
when you're doing that.
What would be better and thisis the WeCare approach is can I
learn to hold both self-care andcare for others in my heart
simultaneously, like, can Iactually deepen my sense of
self-care so that it's presenteven as I'm caring for others,
and then vice versa?
And if you can hold both ofthose in your heart at the same

(15:38):
time, then it gives rise to whatI call a kind of inner compass
of care.
And this inner compass of carehas this kind of natural back
and forth to it where we can,you know, emphasize self-care
when we need to, without thekind of inner conflict or
division that typicallyaccompanies it.
So one real practical example ofthis is a practice in the book

(16:01):
that I call reverse self-care,and so I think it's got a fun
name and basically, reverseself-care is that typically,
when we approach self-care, wedo so with intentions that are
primarily about our ownwell-being, but from a we care
perspective, that's in theeither or mindset, like we're
thinking that self-care timemeans just caring for myself.

(16:24):
But if we just zoom out alittle bit, we see that that
self-care is embedded in thelarger context of how we're
caring for our family, our lovedones and our work, you know,
whatever our work is in theworld.
So reverse self-care starts byfirst identifying a typical
self-care activity that you dothat's consistently supporting

(16:46):
your well-being, and then youreflect who else could this
self-care time support in mylife, like reasonably, who
stands to benefit from me beingmore resourced?
you know, being more in touchwith my vitality and then,
rather than doing that self-careactivity for yourself, you do
it for them.
So you actually like sourcefrom your intention for that

(17:09):
other person's well-being.
As you're practicing self-careNow, you don't want to be
unnatural about it and losetouch with you know, like your
own needs and your sense of carefor yourself.
But a few times during theself-care activity you try and
bring that person to mind andit's a little bit
counterintuitive.
But often what people find iswhen they do that they find
greater motivation to actuallydeepen their sense of self-care

(17:32):
because they realize thatthey're not just doing this for
themselves.
They're doing it now for atleast two people, maybe for many
more people, and so that's agood, I think, practical example
of how WeCare can be started tointegrate in daily life.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, so you see this more as like a mindset shift
than a behavioral shift, or likea mindset shift that then
creates kind of a behavioralchange.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
That's right, yeah, so I really emphasize that every
person's version of we care isgoing to look and feel different
, like I have no idea, you know,when I look from the outside,
whether someone's practicingself-care or, you know, in touch
with interconnected care, andso it's really important not to
judge someone else, you know,for their decision around what
might be their form of WeCare.

(18:17):
And also because we're allworking with the start and we
can talk about this in moredifferent care blind spots, what
we actually need to address andfocus on is going to differ
from person to person, and youknow our sort of conscious care
practices need to, I think, takeinto account what our care
tendencies and care blind spotsand care patterns are.
So ultimately, you know, at theend of the day, our version of

(18:40):
WeCare is going to, yeah, lookvery different.
But, like, just like you said,we care is not just about
changing our internal experience.
It starts there where we'remore in touch with this
interconnected sense of care.
But that inner compass that Italked about, that is really the
result of this kind of union ofself-care and care for others

(19:01):
in your heart, what I call anundivided heart, gives rise to a
direction, you know, a sense ofalignment in different social
situations, where you have maybea sense of agency.
That's not just sourcing fromyour inner self.
But that is actually liketaking into account the context,
and I like to think about howthe context is.

(19:24):
Often, you know like we talkabout being context sensitive,
but I think for people that aretoo other oriented that kind of
language can be problematicbecause you think I'm supposed
to sort of be a chameleon andadapt to all these different
situations.
So, in contrast, I talk aboutcontext integrative care, and so

(19:45):
context integrative is a term Iuse.
That's one step beyond beingcontext sensitive, and the
integrative piece is really howdo I maintain my sense of goals
in the situation and stay awaketo them but still take into
account the context and thenfind like that compass needle
pointing in the direction ofactions that are going to be

(20:06):
ideally mutually beneficial, butat least not harming self or
harming others, you know.
So we care kind of asprotecting from those extremes.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Can we hear these blind spots?

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Blind spots.
Yeah, so I actually have aresource online that people can
take a quiz.
It's called the Care PathwaysQuiz.
They can find it on myInstagram, which is at Mindful
Boundaries.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's linked there or it's on my website.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
It's definitely an incomplete solution.
It's not a scientificallyvalidated assessment tool by any
means, and in fact, I thinkit's really important to mention
that my intention in creatingthe Care Pathways quiz was
really for the quiz itself to bea practice, and so my passion
and my reason for writing mybook.
Or if you were to ask me, like,what do you want people to take

(21:00):
away from your book?
Which maybe is a question thatyou two would ask me.
I really want people to havethat more complete lens for
themselves to look at their carethrough.
So, rather than just lookingthrough the partial lens of
self-care and using that as abarometer for am I balanced in
my care or not I would love forpeople to look through this more
comprehensive lens, which isactually a set of lenses,
through the WeCare approach, andso the Care Pathways Quiz is

(21:24):
one way of kind of doing that,and it has 35 questions that ask
you about different caretendencies or patterns that you
engage with.
There are questions about yourrelationship to self-care or
care for others or boundariesand things like that, and at the
end of it you get one of sevenpossible outcomes.
And then you can go on mywebsite and you can read about

(21:44):
all the different seven outcomesand decide for yourself.
You know which one best fitsyou, if any of them at all.
You know care is so complex thatany one sort of assessment tool
like this would never do.
I think everything that'sneeded to sort of identify your
blind spots and so on, but aspart of the outcome of that you

(22:04):
get to, you get a blind spot.
You know what's a possible careblind spot for yourself.
So there's the typical blindspots, which is, like you know,
you care for others so much thatthat's comes at the expense of
yourself, right?
That's probably the most commonone among helping professionals
.
Then there's also thealternative, the opposing one,

(22:26):
where maybe this one's actuallykind of interesting to get into
with you two.
You know people who celebrateself-care so much that it
becomes, like you know, maybeimbalanced in the direction of
too much self-care, that itbecomes, like you know, maybe
imbalanced in the direction oftoo much self-care and this was
part of my passion in writing.
We Care is that's actuallyundermining their well-being
over time, because they're kindof, maybe, without realizing it,

(22:47):
prioritizing self-care in a waythat's working against our
social nature as human beings.
And so when we uplift self-caretoo much or we lean into
self-care too much, it'spossible that we're undermining
our own personal well-being inthat process, right?
So that's another possible careblind spot.
Then there's something that'scalled care chameleon, which is

(23:08):
like between those two, and thisone's really interesting to me.
It's like you know, if we're,if our care is driven
extrinsically by the environmentaround us, then we're going to
toggle back and forth betweenself-care and care for others,
and there's this wonderfulpotential in that for us to
recognize the flexibility thatwe have like people that do that

(23:29):
naturally they're reallyflexible in their approach to
care and they're like right onthe edge of what I would call we
care.
But unfortunately they're kindof going back and forth,
toggling right either this orthat, and there's a sense of
when they're in one mode they'reforgetting the other, and so
they're still kind of in thateither, or mindset, in contrast

(23:50):
to, you know, holding both inyour heart simultaneously and
emphasizing one direction or theother.
So those are three possibleblind spots and then the last
one I'll mention.
There are more, but the lastone I'll mention is really
provocative and interesting tome personally.
This is probably my care blindspot at this point.
I was going to ask yeah, yeah,and maybe yours as well.

(24:12):
I like to think of it as moresubtle and nuanced, but I'm not
sure it is, and it has to dowith preferring both and
outcomes.
So you know like sometimes youhave to be either, or in your
approach to care, sometimes youhave to be a little bit what we
would say, you know, dualistic Ilike to use that term divided,

(24:35):
you know, not so divided that wedivide ourselves internally,
but externally our behaviormaybe needs to fiercely
emphasize self-care or reallystrongly prioritize care for
others.
And you know, as a result ofwriting this book and just like
my own passion for these topics,I definitely have this bias in

(24:56):
the direction of wanting to findcreative solutions that honor
both my care for self and otherssimultaneously.
And that's not always the bestthing.
Sometimes, in a given moment,you need to emphasize strongly
one or the other and that, whenyou zoom out over the long term,
is going to be what's mostbeneficial for everyone else.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
So there's, that's interesting.
I'm wondering okay, what do youthink about this?
This from the situation, from awe care framework?
So I have this issue with my ex.
I know that a lot of peoplesince I've been talking about
this have experienced similarthings.

(25:40):
Okay, my ex was in a helpingprofession, he was a doctor, and
he felt burnt out from being soother oriented that when we got
together he quit his job andjust like hanging out doing a
lot of self care, and so he'ssaying's, saying like I'm so

(26:00):
burnt out, I want to focus on menow, I want to focus on my own
health, and I'm like that'sawesome.
But then after a while thatlooked a lot like he was kind of
doing his own thing and thennot really helping me out or
like contributing in other ways,like he was just like fully
into self-care, um, and so Idon't know.
Sometimes it is kind of in in acouple.

(26:22):
Sometimes there is like agender bias where, like, at
least in my life, I've hadfriends say like the, their
dudes are a little bit more intothe self-care, and then the and
then the women are, you know,doing the emotional labor.
You know, taking care of thehousehold and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
What, what, how would you look at something like that
in a in a weak care sense?
If you have, like, let's say, aguy who's burnt out from
helping others, that he does alot of self care, but then that
puts a lot of burden on thefamily.
Yeah, that's a wonderfulquestion, it's like an equation
of like how many people arecared by him smoking weed in my

(27:03):
basement?
Well, there's complexity.
Yeah, I love the question.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
And yeah, I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
It's your ex, so we can talkabout it, you know.
Now no problem.
But yeah, I think there's acouple things to note that
highlight the complexity of thiswhole conversation.
One is that we all go throughseasons with our care, right.
So like there are times when wereally strongly are going to be

(27:30):
emphasizing care for others,like you know, a new parent, for
example, right?
So, really having to care forkids for years and years, you
know, maybe decades or somethinglike that be more other
oriented than they might benaturally inclined, and so there
is that possibility of theselonger term arcs in our life, I
think, where we're leaning inone direction or the other in a

(27:53):
way that is imbalanced, you know, and to some effect.
So we care isn't about likemaintaining that perfect
equilibrium of balance acrossall situations all the time.
Sometimes we care is aboutseeing what season you're in and
emphasizing that, and I thinkthat initially it sounds like
your ex partner started in thatdirection, like hey, I'm, I'm

(28:15):
burnout, I've reached this point, you know, in the healthcare
system which is totallyreasonable and understandable
that my output just gotunsustainable and I need to take
a break, and so I think that itwas.
There was wisdom maybe thatinitially informed that decision
of I'm going to take a breakand emphasize self-care for a

(28:35):
while.
Break and emphasize self-carefor a while, but from a WeCare
perspective, then what occurredmaybe was that it became this
kind of toggling in thatdirection, so it's still stuck
in the either or mindset whereand this is part of the problem
or issue with self-care, in myopinion in general is that it
triggers, activates andreinforces an either or mindset

(28:57):
about our care cares, activatesand reinforces an either or
mindset about our care, which isthat we get to do just one at a
time, and life is rarely thatway Like.
If you want to be a skillfulhuman being and you want to
genuinely help people, you needto learn to hold both self-care
and care for others in yourheart simultaneously.
And it sounds like what happenedin that situation is they went
so far in the direction ofself-care that it became what I

(29:17):
call a divided mode of care, andall the research you know on
this topic is really interesting.
It suggests that when we're ina divided mode of care, that's
when care undermines ourwell-being, but that happens in
either direction.
So we could be in an either ormindset around our care in the
direction of self-care, likeyou're highlighting, and that's

(29:38):
undermining his own well-being.
At a certain point it soundslike he was like maybe more
depressed than you know actuallypracticing self-care.
In some sense he had lost touchwith his sense of vitality.
We could put it that way, rightDepressed, maybe not the best
term.
And then, on the flip side, youknow, we can go so far in the
direction of caring for othersthat we're undermining our own

(30:00):
well-being.
So it's at those extremes ofdivided modes of care that we
see the unhealthy aspects ofcare.
Shifting into that mode ofself-care for a little while is,

(30:20):
yes, you can shift into that asan emphasis, but you really
have to stay wakeful to the factthat you're still going to have
to show up for others at times.
You're still going to have toprioritize your social life, and
if you don't do that, thenyou're actually undermining not
only those people's well-beingbut your own well-being.
In the process, you'reweakening your social support
system, which is going to beneeded again in the future.
There's all sorts ofdeleterious effects right Of

(30:42):
that kind of divided mode ofself-care.
And then the same thing, yeah,on the flip side.
So we care is like how do westay in that healthy middle
where we can emphasize withoutpolarizing?
So I talk about emphasize,don't polarize your care.
And if we can do that, then Iwould say that you know that
situation would be transformed,like he could do all that stuff

(31:04):
and still emphasize himself, butwhen you needed help he would
be there to support you, or whenyour family needed him to show
up, you know, for this familygathering, he maybe reluctantly
would do that, but he could doit and over time maybe he would
see that that's actuallysupporting his self-care.
Yeah, yeah.

(31:24):
Thanks for the question.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
So when we think about boundaries I mean I'm
guessing boundaries we're goingto talk about how they allow us
to maintain a healthy state ofmind so that we can provide
other oriented care, in a sense.
But can you kind of speak towhat you think the role of
boundaries are here?

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Absolutely yeah.
So boundaries is another one ofthese really ubiquitous terms,
and so, yeah, it decided in mybook, which here I'll hold it up
, maybe because we haven't donethat yet.
So this is my book.
It's out on May 6th, which Idon't know if this podcast will
come out before or after thatbut from self-care to we care,
the new science of mindfulboundaries and caring from an
undivided heart.

(32:07):
And I was very fortunate DanielSiegel if you know who that is
very famous author in this spacewrote the foreword to the book,
so just mentioned that too.
I'm very grateful to him forthat.
But, yeah, I decided to take on,you know, kind of both of these
concepts self-care reallyubiquitous concept, I think,
needs updating how we thinkabout it and speak about it but

(32:27):
also boundaries.
So one of the things that Inoticed about over a decade ago
maybe, kibbe, when you and Iinitially connected or something
is, boundaries was being usedeverywhere, like it was maybe
just becoming even more of abuzzword at that time, and it's
only continued since.
And yet nobody seemed to agreeon what they were like.

(32:49):
What are boundaries, how do wedefine these?
And so I sort of set out on aquest.
You know you could say it thatway.
I think I read about that in mybook, but it was true more or
less.
I set out on a quest tounderstand what healthy
boundaries were like, how tocultivate them, what are they?
And, as I said, it was tied tomy own personal journey, like
could I actually figure out howthat I could have, as a

(33:10):
counselor, been able to balanceself-attunement to others, to
others and maybe, you know, inways that somebody, if they had
had that knowledge, could havetaught me at that time and I
might have become a therapistinstead of, you know, doing all
this research kind of stuff.
And so I'm happy to say that,even though it took me a lot
longer to get that kind ofclarity than I initially

(33:32):
expected, I feel like I have agood sense of what boundaries
are at this point scientifically, and so on.
I'm still working on a fewpublications on this topic that
haven't been peer reviewed yet,so I won't sort of like get into
all the science you know atthis point, but what I can say
is very consistent with what'sin my book and with my
scientific research on thistopic that my view on boundaries

(33:55):
is different.
It differs because, as Istarted to look at what they
actually are.
I realized that part of theconfusion was we were one using
the term for many differentphenomena, you know, so like.
There's informationalboundaries, like how much do you
divulge in a social situation.
There's social role boundaries,like between a therapist and

(34:16):
their client, like not havingdual relationships, right.
There's self boundaries, solike where is the edge of myself
and where does the other personbegin, and that's actually
interestingly very up in thefield of psychedelics research.
You know, that kind of selfboundaries or the boundaries of
the mind boundaries or theboundaries of the mind.

(34:39):
But what I'm interested in, andI think what you all are maybe
mostly focused on, is socialboundaries, or what I call
interpersonal boundaries, as away of distinguishing them,
which is a kind of definition wecan think of, for that
generally is actions that wetake, deliberate actions that we
take to modify socialsituations or relationships so
that they're more aligned withour own needs, values and goals,

(35:01):
right, and so that does a fewthings.
By approaching boundaries inthis way, one, it sort of takes
us out of thinking aboutboundaries as nouns.
So I think that it's important.
You know, we talk aboutboundaries as like limits or
expectations that we have.
But part of the difficulty ofthat is that that's like.

(35:22):
I think that's a subset ofboundaries and it's a really
healthy and good one.
And especially if people arefirst on their boundaries
journey, that kind of languagecan be really useful if they're
in like a toxic relationship ora really difficult relationship,
like what won't I tolerate fromthese other people, you know,
and getting clear about that inadvance as a kind of rule.
Toxic relationship or a reallydifficult relationship like what
won't I tolerate from theseother people, you know, and
getting clear about that inadvance as a kind of rule.

(35:42):
But the problem is that most ofour social life is so varied
and diverse that when wecalibrate those kind of rules
and expectations to the contextof our most unhealthy
relationships, of our mostunhealthy relationships, they
don't work well in the contextof other relationships.

(36:03):
They become sort of too, either, or again so too kind of all or
nothing or something.
So by broadening and thinkingabout boundaries as actions, as
verbs, I think there's thispossibility of kind of fluidly
adapting them across diverserelationships and social
situations.
That's one thing that thedefinition does.
But kind of the bigger insightfor me around boundaries is not

(36:26):
so much about what boundariesare as what healthy boundaries
are.
So when I started to kind ofinvestigate that more and
interrogate it as a researcher,I realized that what I was
studying or what I wasinterested in was actually
something much broader.
And so I write about and wecare how.
One day, as I was preparing forthis compassion training class

(36:48):
that we offer here at Naropa, Ihad this insight about care and
compassion and how we'reapproaching them scientifically.
That sort of rotated all theother thoughts that I had about
this topic.
Like it was, like, you know,one of those moments that you I
wish somebody could have likezoomed in on my thoughts in that
moment.
But it really felt like that,like whoa, okay, I've actually

(37:09):
been looking at this wrong theentire time, not entirely wrong,
but all these puzzle piecesthat I had gathered over the
years to understand what healthyboundaries were, I realized
were about something bigger, andthat's what led me to write the
book we Care and so we Care.

(37:30):
For me is my answer to what ittakes to cultivate healthy
boundaries from the inside out.
And so this is another kind ofdifference in my approach to
healthy boundaries is that Ithink that a lot of approaches
that focus on boundaries arelike outside, in approaches like
how do I memorize the rightthing to say?
Or you know, there's, you know.
You go online.
You'll find so many Instagramaccounts with you know, and it's

(37:52):
no problem.
I think this is great stuff, bythe way, but with so many
scripts that you can downloadfor those difficult
conversations, for me, assomeone who can't remember in
the moment especially in theheat of the moment you know what
to say and struggles with.
You know words, you know justin general, like saying the
right thing, those scripts neverlanded for me.
I can never actually adopt themin a way that felt authentic

(38:15):
for myself across differentsocial situations, and so I was
like is it possible maybe thatwe could cultivate healthy
boundaries from the inside outin a way that becomes a kind of
authentic expression for uspersonally and isn't something
that it feels like we have tolearn from the outside?
And so that's really what wecares about is that we can
cultivate this kind of carebased inner compass, and that

(38:40):
care-based inner compassprotects us, first of all, from
the extremes.
So this is really important.
When we look at kind of the mostegregious instances of a
collapse of boundaries, they'rein those extreme territories.
So we're caring for others andwe abandon our self-care and we

(39:04):
prioritize their needs and whatthey're wanting in that moment
so much that it's underminingour own well-being to do that.
That's one way that we loseboundaries and that we have
unhealthy boundaries right.
And then that can happen in theother direction as well, where
people prioritize themselves somuch that they're not able to
perspective take and they're notable to sort of have that sense

(39:24):
of warmth and affiliativeemotion for others.
That's so critical for actuallycultivating social well-being.
And so if we cultivate stronglyself-care and care for others
and there's different practicesto do that self-compassion and
compassion for others, and wecan get into that a little bit
more if we want to but we reallydeepen that internal sense of

(39:53):
like, I will not lose sight ofthe fact that I need to look out
for my own needs and I will notlose sight of the fact that
your needs are tied to mine,right.
It may not be the needs of theperson directly in front of us
that we're setting theboundaries with, but the broader
system and support system ofour life needs us right.
So if we can cultivate thosethings very strongly, then, in
the midst of a difficultsituation like a conflict, we
are much less likely to collapseour care in one direction or

(40:16):
the other.
And when we collapse our carein one direction or the other,
that's when the real kind ofharm happens, in my opinion.
You know, either we disrespectthe other, that's when the real
kind of harm happens, in myopinion.
Either we disrespect the otherperson or we violate ourselves.
And so that's the first thingabout WeCare is that it protects
us from those sort of mostdifficult kinds of collapsing of
our care.

(40:37):
And then ideally, our boundariescan be an expression of care
for both ourselves and others inways that cultivate mutual
benefit.
So a lot of the discussionaround boundaries is like the
boundaries are expressions ofour self-care, and even the
definition I offered earlierkind of leans in that direction,
because I said that it's aboutaligning with our own needs,

(40:59):
goals and values.
But the truth is our needs,goals and values are bound up
with the needs, goals and valuesof those we're surrounded by
and those that you know ourloved ones and are in our
intimate circles, and so on.
So there's no way to do healthyboundaries without kind of
understanding the effects of ourbehaviors on others, and so,

(41:21):
ideally, wecare helps us toemphasize ourselves again,
emphasize without polarizing,and that, ideally, we care helps
us to emphasize ourselves again, emphasize without polarizing,
and that, I think, gives rise tothese naturally healthy
boundaries.
There's one more thing I'll sayin this in terms of practical
tips and why this works in myopinion, which is that when we
cultivate care based boundaries,when our boundaries are rooted

(41:41):
in care fundamentally, or wecare ideally, in my opinion,
then the language that we use toexpress those boundaries is
care-based.
And when the language we use iscare-based, we balance
protection and connection whensetting our boundaries, so we
stay connected to ourselves andmaybe the other person, or at

(42:03):
least we stay connected to thewider social fabric of our life,
and that offers us a kind ofstrength, inner strength, that
we wouldn't have if we felt likeI'm doing this, for me, like
this, this is an act orexpression of self-care.
Yes, in this moment you'reneeding to maybe fiercely
emphasize your self-care, butyou're doing that in order.

(42:26):
I think most everyone is doingthat to protect their energy, so
that they can care for otherpeople in their life.
And when we have that kind ofbroader perspective and it may
be even that we're doing it topromote deeper connection in the
relationship of the person thatwe're setting boundaries with.
When we have that view ofboundaries, then the boundaries

(42:46):
we set will be more likely to bewell received.
There's still going to besocial friction and we can talk
about the reasons for that, butthere's probably going to be
less social friction and theboundaries we set are going to,
you know, deepen both protectionand connection over time.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know, deepen both protection and connection over
time.
That sounds like I'm I'mabsorbing what you're saying.
And if you, let's say a coupleof people that we work with in
Cooler Mind who are like, howwould you, how would you suggest
what this would look like in,let's say, someone who's taking
care of a loved one with mentalillness or addiction?

(43:26):
So I have, we're working with acouple people who are saying,
well, I'm getting so overwhelmedbecause, um, we're kind of
walking around eggshells with mylike my son or my brother,
whoever with addiction.
I don't want to upset himbecause it might.
They might relapse and then,also, when he does like, I have

(43:49):
to take him to the hospital andtry to get them into treatment,
and then I'm like overwhelmedand burnt out, so I want to set
my boundaries a little bitbetter.
So there always is this kind oflike, you know, like what, what
happens when it comes tosomeone who's really struggling
and we love them, we want tosupport them.
What does the boundary looklike?
Or how does you know settingboundaries from a weak care

(44:11):
perspective.
In that sense look like.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, it's a wonderful question and yeah, I
think that your questionhighlights Fortunately I think
we need to keep highlightingthis in this discussion just the
complexity of care in our lives, like for people who are
caregivers of someone withaddiction or some kind of
chronic illness or somethinglike that care becomes really
complex and how to navigate itmoment by moment becomes, I

(44:37):
think, the task.
So we can kind of globally talkabout, you know, strategies
that they might take toemphasize and prioritize
themselves in that situation.
But unless they're kind of likeon an ongoing basis, in touch
with that sense of compassionfor themselves in that situation
, then they might miss out onthose small opportunities here

(44:57):
and there where the otherperson's like kind of distracted
and at peace and kind of offdoing their own thing and they
actually have that moment tokind of slip out and prioritize,
you know, their self-careduring that time.
I think for people who are inthat situation, one is I think
we need to validate thecomplexity of their situation.

(45:17):
Like we need to validate howdifficult it is for them to
actually maintain this sense ofbalance and that they are being
other oriented and that is agood thing.
Like that there's benefits tobeing other oriented and in our
life life and even though oursociety tells us it's all about
self-care and what you dopersonally and you know all that

(45:39):
kind of stuff I think thatunfortunately, that narrative
has sort of gotten away from usa little bit and we maybe lose
sight of the fact that caringfor others is a deeply
meaningful thing.
It's part of almost everyone'sjourney while they're here, you
know, on earth, and for manypeople I think that it provides,
you know, some of the mostmeaningful moments of their life

(46:00):
.
But then the question is likehow do I transition that from
something that's undermining mywellbeing into something that is
kind of?
Maybe it's not mutuallybeneficial in the sense that
it's equal, but at least I'm notgetting harmed in the process,
right?

Speaker 2 (46:15):
So that's.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
I think the discussions kind of transitions
from from yeah, that of kind ofmaintaining equilibrium or
finding mutual benefit, to notgetting harmed, and the
practical advice I would say isthat, from a WeCare perspective,
boundaries are social phenomenaand when we get really clear,
on example, like we all needsupport in our boundaries

(46:38):
journey and we need a supportsystem for that, and sometimes
it needs to be formal forms ofsupport, like a therapist or
someone who can help usspecifically navigate the
complexity of our situation.

(46:59):
The reason for that is thatI've never met anyone without a
care blind spot.
The reason for that is thatI've never met anyone without a
care blind spot, like I've nevermet someone who doesn't have a
blind spot or preference ortendency in one direction or the
other.
And often they're highlyidiosyncratic, like for me, like
one of my care blind spots.
A different one is like if I'mworking on something I'm really
passionate about, I'll just likework and work and work, and

(47:21):
I'll like forget to drink waterand like even have my coffee
sometimes and I'm like, oh myGod.
So I think that everyone hastheir own idiosyncratic care
blind spots, and the thing abouta blind spot is it's really
difficult to see Right.
And so it sounds like thesepeople, fortunately, have
connected to you at this time insuch a way that you're able to

(47:44):
help them navigate with anuanced approach, finding this
balance and graduallycultivating and building in that
self-care aspect so thatthey're not resentful, you know,
of this other person or so thatthey don't lose touch with that
broader sense of purpose ormeaning that they might find, if
they feel you know, moresustainable care over time.

(48:06):
I was going to say one otherthing on this topic which, in
terms of practical tips andadvice, I really strongly
recommend that everyone finds akind of high impact WeCare
practice.
So what I mean by that is apractice that we can return to
in micro moments.
Like we can do it in a fewmoments, like, okay, I've got a

(48:26):
couple minutes right now betweenmeetings, you know something
like that, for if it's at work,like I can stretch out and do
yoga in this time right.
Or like I have an hour thisupcoming weekend where I'm not
having to care for this lovedone who is really struggling
with mental illness or somethinglike that, I've got a full hour
.
I can go to that yoga class anddo a deeper dive into yoga at

(48:49):
that time.
So yoga, in my opinion and Idon't actually practice yoga
that frequently, but I thinkit's a high impact we care
activity, or it has thispotential in this way that it's
got a number of benefits.
One it can fit into micromoments, you can do it flexibly
at home, you can do it in aclass, it can also be done solo
or social, and I think that'sreally critical.

(49:11):
So I actually know someone whowas needing to be a caregiver of
their mom who had a stroke andthey adopted.
They had practiced yogapreviously but they had kind of
lost sight of it and thisprocess.
They were growing resentful ofneeding to be caring for their
mother, you know, during thattime.
And they remembered this yogapractice and they were like, oh,

(49:32):
I'll just roll out the mat anddo it for a little bit.
You know, they were home withtheir mom and they found, oh my
gosh, I forgot how much thisresources mean.
And they started going to yogaclass.
They found that there was ayoga class, there was somebody
else who could care for theirmom each weekend for about an
hour or whatever, and theyactually met their new romantic

(49:53):
partner, you know, by going tothe yoga class.
And so it's like I think anexample of these gradual shifts
in the direction of self-carecan kind of snowball over time
if we take this mindful approachin ways that ultimately lead to
that sense of we care.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
So I think you were mentioned in your book.
I mean that you noticed apattern in compassion science.
I was wondering if you couldtalk about that.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
Thanks.
I love talking about this topicbecause, uh, yeah, it's one of
my starting points for um, forgetting into the week air topic
to begin with.
So basically, uh, when I hadthat insight about compassion a
number of years ago, before wewere going to teach on it,
basically the insight was that,wow, we, we are framing

(50:45):
compassion, which is thisquality that's meant to support
our social side, it's meant tosupport our connection needs.
We're now reframing it byputting this self dash word in
front of it, from somethingthat's meant to prioritize our
connection needs into somethingthat's supporting our autonomy
needs.
And so that's reallyinteresting, like from an

(51:06):
evolutionary standpoint andother perspectives.
You know there's differentframeworks for understanding our
basic psychological needs, butalmost all of them sort of
converge, that we haveconnection needs and we have
autonomy needs and we need tobalance those two, and our
ancestors did as well.
But modern life is almost allabout autonomy needs.
You know, we're almost alwaystalking about our autonomy needs

(51:28):
and self-care is kind of anartifact of that, and
self-compassion is too.
And so these qualities that aremeant to compassion is meant to
sort of not dissolve but sortof lessen the sense of
difference between my sufferingand your suffering.
But now, instead of compassionbeing something about overcoming
the sense of difference betweenmy suffering and your suffering
, but now instead of compassionbeing something about overcoming
the sense of distance or gapbetween self and other, it's now

(51:51):
becoming something throughself-compassion, that's
reinforcing my autonomy needsand keeping in some sense
potentially a sense of barrierbetween myself and others, where
I use it as an excuse to notsocialize or not go out and, you
know, be more other oriented.
So there's this kind of likeinteresting flip of taking

(52:12):
something that was has a socialessence and subtly undermining
it through the terms self-careand self-compassion.
And so I went into thescientific literature on this
and I found that we did thiscomprehensive review of all the
studies that have been done incompassion science on compassion
training, and I found thatthere was this dichotomy within

(52:33):
the field.
I mean, it's like we havepresented in the paper this bar
graph and you basically seethere are studies that strongly
emphasize self-compassion andthere's studies that strongly
emphasize compassion for others,and there was basically none in
the middle.
So what I mean by that is therewas no studies examining
relationships betweenself-compassion and compassion

(52:53):
for others.
We talk about it a lot.
There's a lot of sayings outthere like in order to be
compassionate toward others, youneed to be, you need to have
self-compassion.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
I don't agree with that.
By the way, Someone else?

Speaker 3 (53:06):
There's some truth in it, but I don't agree totally.
People can be reallycompassionate toward others
without having cultivatedself-compassion.
But basically there was thisdichotomy, or the either-or
mindset was present in the fieldof compassion science as a
whole and it had sort oforganized itself in one
direction or the other.
And then we looked at trainingsthemselves and we found the

(53:27):
same pattern that there wastrainings that either were
self-compassion trainings orthat really strongly emphasize
compassion for others, like theymight've had a module on
self-compassion, but like sevenout of the eight weeks were
other oriented and only one ofthe eight weeks was
self-compassion, and then it wasthe opposite, you know, with
the self-compassion stuff.
And so I became reallypassionate about this and after

(53:50):
writing that and publishing thatreview and kind of you know,
criticizing this, this patternin the field, I decided to do
some research on how do peopleactually naturally experience
compassion in daily life.
So even without training, likein the midst of daily life, how
do people experience this?
And so we used a techniquecalled ecological momentary
assessment, which is kind ofsmartphone-based surveys I think

(54:13):
, kibi, you used that, maybeeven in your dissertation, right
and so smartphone-based surveyscentered around social
interactions.
So when people were in themidst of a social interaction.
Right afterwards they were tocomplete one of these surveys,
or I think maybe in this case wedid it as a daily diary, so
they reflected on their dailysocial interactions and we asked

(54:33):
them when you were in thesocial interaction, were you in
touch with care for yourself?
And then they would check youknow yes or no Care for the
other person that you were inthe interaction with, yes or no
People beyond the socialsituation?
So you know yes or no Care forthe other person that you were
in the interaction with, yes orno People beyond the social
situation.
So you know it's maybe twopeople in interaction.
What about others who are noteven present?
And the yes or no?

(54:53):
And we found that, like a lot ofthe time, like something like
you know, 30 to 40% of the time,people were checking that they
were caring for themselvesdeeply and for the other person
that they were interacting withor for others outside the
situation.
And then we asked thesefollow-up questions to get more
specific and we said, okay, wereyou toggling back and forth

(55:14):
Like, were you experiencingself-care?
And then you know, when theother person was speaking, you
were caring for them?
No, that's not what washappening.
The majority of the time theyactually reported that they were
experiencing one integratedfeeling state, like a field of
care, and we measured care, bythe way, and we defined it so
that it was consistent with theconceptualization of compassion,

(55:36):
like it was focused onsuffering, and so they were
experiencing this field ofcompassion that encompassed them
, the other person they wereinteracting with and then
frequently others beyond theinteraction, and this is what's
naturally happening for peoplein daily social interactions.
And yet our field of compassion, science, is making this

(55:56):
dichotomous distinction betweencompassion for self and
compassion for others andreinforcing this idea that you
either are doing one or theother.
So that made me even morepassionate and it eventually
made me, you know, write thisbook that we're kind of failing
people if we're not teachingthem about this more
interconnected experience ofcompassion.

(56:17):
Not only is that a naturalthing, but it's probably the
healthier alternative to justdoing one or the other.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Yeah, I love that.
Just so, simply like, insteadof just focusing on am I caring
for you or am I caring for me?
It's like we're caring for we.
Yes exactly Like caring for therelationship versus like you or
me, and I always liked the ideathat, especially when you see on
social media or any kind ofplace where it's kind of
stripping the nuance, it's likeare you the toxic one?

(56:46):
Am I the toxic one?
Am I caring for me?
Am I caring for?
Is this good for me?
It's all.
It's like a either or insteadof like no.
Two people are making the toxicdynamic.
Two people are caring for eachother.
It's like it's like acombination or emergent property
of two people coming together.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
And there's complexity there.
You know we could, we couldtalk about probably that would
be a longer conversation of likewell, what if it really is like
the other person that's justcausing all of the issues?
And then you know, but um.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
You have a more me problem, right, right.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
And we care, by the way, relates to that as having
an adaptable we.
Um, I have a practice.
Just like I talked aboutreverse self-care earlier, I
have a practice that I callreverse self-compassion, and so
this arose for me as a responsekind of to some of the issues
that I was just raising, thatself-compassion is often taught
in a sort of more divided way.

(57:37):
By the way, I have greatrespect for the self-compassion
literature as a whole and forthat construct.
I think, just like self-care,we need to integrate
self-compassion literature as awhole and for that construct.
I think, just like self-care,we need to integrate
self-compassion into ourcompassion practice.
So I'm not trying to get rid ofself-compassion, I'm just
trying to emphasize it in a moreinterconnected framework and
keep that really front or peakof mind.
My experience is that peopleoften struggle with the

(58:00):
self-compassion practice.
So I don't know if you two haveyou ever done a self-compassion
practice before, like loving,kindness for yourself?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Yeah, that's a very common one.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
So this is sort of rooted in that.
But what we experience in ourcompassion training is that that
week tends to be the mostdifficult for people.
So when they're practicingcompassion for themselves it's
more difficult than compassionfor others.
And we could say you know manydifferent interesting reasons
and come up with many differentinteresting stories for why that

(58:30):
might be.
That relates to their ownbackground and childhood and so
on.
You know, and that's trueprobably for almost everyone,
that there's complexity in howwe relate to ourselves.
But I think there's a deeperissue which is really that we've
removed self-compassionsometimes from this more
interconnected frame and it'sactually not natural for us to
practice compassion towardourselves in that way.

(58:52):
So it is.
It brings up guilt and so onfor people when they're not in
touch with that moreinterconnected framework and
they feel like it's somethingidiosyncratic about themselves
and they think, oh, I need topractice self-compassion more
because I'm really strugglingwith this.
But actually we need to put itin a more interconnected frame
because everyone's strugglingwith that.

(59:12):
And actually, you know, if yougo back to our evolutionary
history, these complex forms ofcompassion evolved to be
other-oriented, so they evolvedto be directed toward others,
and that flow directed towardothers first, and it was only in
modern history that towardothers and that flow directed
toward others first, and it wasonly in modern history that we
began directing that flow ofcompassion toward ourself as a
kind of unique entity.
So this practice is meant to putthat back into an

(59:33):
interconnected frame.
So there's two kind of steps tobegin the practice before we
actually dive into it.
One is to identify what I callyour compassion spark.
Okay, so I'll guide you to inthat.
Your compassion spark issomething that when you bring it
to mind you immediately feel intouch with a sense of inner
warmth and affiliative emotionor, you know, a sense of care.

(59:56):
So I'll give some prompts orpointers.
Sometimes it's like a memory ofthe holidays for people or of a
loved one you know who's reallyprecious to them, but often
it's a pet.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Okay, I was like I'm going to go with my cat.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, it's good, perfect.
So people actually research onthis.
People find it much easier toget in touch with affiliative
emotions for an animal than theydo another human being,
unfortunately, you know.
But we can use that knowledgeto spark compassion.
So if that helps people, noshame in that.
That's what I use.
I actually don't have a petmyself at this point in my life,

(01:00:35):
but my brother has a dog and Ithink about my brother's dog as
a puppy and it's still anenduring compassion spark for me
.
So if that works for people,you can think about somebody
else's pet too.
My wife.
She works in hospice care andshe thinks about her patients,
you know, who are elderly.
I think the elderly also evokea similar sense of, you know,
natural affection and care inmany people.
So once you've got thatcompassion spark identified,

(01:00:58):
that's the first step and we'llcome back to that in a moment.
But you can drop that for now.
Kibbe, you have your compassionspark.
I do, I'll pick my dog.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Okay, perfect, awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
All good.
And then the second thing is toidentify someone in your life
who would stand to benefit justlike I was talking about earlier
from you being more in touchwith gentleness and kindness
toward yourself.
Like who in your life wouldbenefit if you were less
self-critical, or, another wayof saying it, if we wanted to be

(01:01:29):
more outcome oriented is if youwere more in touch with love
for yourself and you were morein touch with your sense of
vitality.
So try and identify someonespecific in your life who would
benefit from you having thatkind of relationship with
yourself.
It might be your romanticpartner or your family or
someone like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Yeah, good, there too .

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
Okay, let me guide you then in this practice.
So, if you'd like, you can takea posture that's comfortable
for sitting, meditation orsomething like that.
You could close your eyes ifyou'd like, and we're going to
start with just calling to mindour compassion spark.
Mind, our compassion spark, sobringing to mind your cat or

(01:02:18):
your dog or someone else's cator dog, if that's supportive, or
, again, it could be a cherishedmemory.
Sometimes for people it's asong or a phrase or a gesture,
like putting their hand on theirheart, like putting their hand
on their heart, but as you holdthis in mind, allowing it to
begin circulating the sense ofwarmth in your body and in your

(01:02:40):
mind, and you can rely on thebreath to help you circulate
that feeling and then, whenyou're ready, see if you can

(01:03:09):
allow some of that feeling ofwarmth and care to be directed
toward yourself, that flow ofcare to come back inward into
your inner self.
You might pair this with thein-breath, so maybe on each
out-breath you remember yourcompassion spark and then, on
the in-breath, you're allowingsome of that care to come back
toward yourself.
But as you do this, see if youcan remember that you're

(01:03:30):
allowing this care towardyourself, not as an expression
of self-compassion per se, butas an expression of your care
for this other person that youidentified as well.
Knowing that you receiving thiskind of care and support in
this moment, you offeringyourself this mindful and
compassionate pause is likely tosupport not just you but others

(01:03:55):
, and you can express thissilently, internally, in the
form of a wish, saying somethinglike this May this
compassionate pause nourish mein ways that support you too,

(01:04:20):
thinking about that other person.
May this compassionate pausenourish me in ways that support
you too.

(01:04:41):
Thank you both for trying thatout with me.
I wish I had my bell.
I don't have my bell to sort ofring and close the meditation
session.
But yeah, do you want to sayanything?
How was that for you?
Any sense of difficulty or, youknow, was it awkward in some
kind of way?
Sometimes people experience itthat way at first because
there's kind of a few movingpieces.
But I'll just emphasize that ifyou try this out over a few

(01:05:03):
sessions, it gets easier and itfeels more natural to both evoke
your compassion spark, allowthat flow toward yourself and
then still be in touch with this.
You know other person so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Jacqueline want to go .

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I mean, I was at first I went with my dead cat
Scipio, and then I was like Ithink there's too much guilt
attached here.
I don't know if this is becausethen I was starting to send
compassion towards myself.
I was like, am I sending guilttowards myself?
I'm not sure I just switchedRight, I don't.
I was trying to think if Istruggled to send compassion
towards myself, I mean I wastrying to do it with body image.

(01:05:40):
It was just something that I'vetalked about a lot and how that
would support my boyfriends notgoing crazy, uh, by my 4
million comments about myself,um, and that was kind of that
was kind of interesting Um, butI kind of noticed that I'm
willing to send that compassiontowards myself.
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Beautiful In these moments.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
I think I struggle maybe more when I'm not in these
moments.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
When you're already in the self-critic or something
right.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
When I'm intentionally sending compassion
to myself, I can do it.
I think I certainly forget todo that when it comes to body
image specifically.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Right.
Right, that highlightssomething really, uh, specific
that we talked about, which ishow idiosyncratic care blind
spots can be Right.
So it can just be domainspecific, like you know what
you're speaking to.
So I think that it's good forpeople to keep that in mind,
like your blind spot isn't justin self care or care for others,

(01:06:41):
but it can be highly specificto just one domain or some kind
of content or something likethat.
And it sounds to me you know,fortunately, I think most people
are already awake to theinterconnection between their
self-compassion and compassionfor others, and it sounds like
you might already be awake tothat.
So, for you to offer care andcompassion toward yourself, you
probably already, due to whatyou're doing here and all sorts

(01:07:03):
of studies and so on that you'velooked at, understand that
offering yourself that care andcompassion is going to benefit
your community too, and so, yeah, I love hearing that there
wasn't as much friction for youwith that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
I do think I'm pretty self like, I'm pretty self-care
oriented.
I mean, I notice I think that'show I think of myself more I
notice that behaviorally I canbe pretty other oriented.
But I do think I have a prettyactive like sense of self care
and believe in that as as aresources myself for others.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
Yeah, nice Balancing those, those autonomy and
connection needs, that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Yeah, the practice was interesting because I feel
like just in my whole life I II'm totally bought into the week
care model, cause I'm, like youknow, things that I do for me,
like caring for others, reallynourishes me and hopefully vice
versa.
The practice was I was thinkingof my dog, mindy, and then, you
know, just kind of getting somewarm fuzzies from that, and

(01:08:03):
then thinking of my husband andhow I can, you know, extend more
love and compassion towards himand I just found myself
thinking about like, maybe likean intellectual exercise of a oh
yeah, we should have Mindycuddle with Alex more and a lot
of like love from her.
So it didn't go, yeah, at somepoint it was just like I was

(01:08:25):
like oh, I identified a thingthat I love and gives me a lot
of joy.
I should have give that to himso so you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
It's over the self-compassion.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
It's just skipped over me.
I don't need the goodness I'llgive it to him.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah, that's a brand for her.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Interesting, interesting.
I know we're my blind sponsor.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
Yeah, I love that.
Thanks for being honest andsharing both of you about your
experience during the practice.
And I'll just say that you knowall of these practices,
including all the there's like10 practices in my book.
The point of them is really toget us to get that metacognitive
awareness on our care, andmaybe this is a good closing
thought.
I don't know if we're reachingthat point in the conversation.
I think so.
It's just that you know, a weakcare perspective, I think is

(01:09:09):
powerful in the sense of gettingmetacognitive about our care,
trying out these practices thatget us to notice potential blind
spots that we may not have beentotally attuned to or awake to
before.
And the wonderful thing aboutgetting metacognitive about our
care is that, unlike gettingmetacognitive about some other
things, when we care more aboutour care, then the things that

(01:09:30):
we care for also benefit, right.
So whatever we're caring foralready, we're trying to care
for it, to promote itswell-being, to nourish it in
ways to reduce suffering,whatever you know the expression
of care might be in that moment.
And so when we get better atcaring, when we get curious
about our care and we get morereflective about our care, then

(01:09:52):
those things stand to benefittoo.
Yeah, Love that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
I want to do that exercise next time I'm leading
DPT team.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
Oh, wonderful, yeah, please, please, share it.
And if you, if you want toreach out, you know I can
provide some more notes on it,or something like that too.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Sure, yeah, all right , well, I think, provide some
more notes on it, or somethinglike that too Sure, yeah, all
right.
Well, I think that's a greatnote to end on.
Thank you so much, jordan, andfor our little helpers, if we
care, then maybe we can leavesome five-star ratings on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify and we'llsee you next week.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
Thank you so much.
Thank you both so much andwe'll see you next week.
Thank you so much, thank youboth so much and thanks to
everyone listening.
And yeah, maybe I'll just saythis one more time If you're
interested in this topic, checkout my book.
It's out soon.
And yeah, hope everyone has awonderful day.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
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The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
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This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on

(01:11:09):
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(01:11:31):
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