Interview with Dr. Matt Scult: How to Master Stress

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome back, Little Helpers.
Today we are going to talkabout something that affects all
of us, but in varying degrees.
It affects us at work, inrelationships, and especially
may affect us if we have lovedones who are suffering from
mental health disorders.
The topic is stress, and todaywe have helping us Dr Matt Skalt

(00:37):
, who is a licensed clinicalpsychologist in private practice
in New York, a digital mentalhealth consultant and the VP of
clinical science at Scenario.
So, Matt, thank you for comingto talk to us about all things
stress.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Before we get into like the important stuff, just
want to also say that Matt isprobably responsible for most of
my career, because we went tograd school together at Duke and
then he pulled me into theinternship program at Cornell
and then I I basically credityou also for like pulling me
into digital mental health aswell.
So you were mad and that is whyI, like you, know what is it

(01:20):
like mentor behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, I just love working with Kimmy.
So I, you know, I'm just tryingto figure out every way to to
keep figuring out ways that wecan.
We can work together and chatabout mutual interests.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
I have no idea Matt was so influential in your life.
I also spoke with Matt before.
Was I already?
I don't even know if I wasalready in Duke or if you were
just some.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
I think you were applying.
I was applying.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
You don't even know if I was already in Duke or if
you were just some.
I think you were applying, Iwas applying, you were thinking
of it.
Remember how we got connected.
But yeah, we had a conversationon the phone about like
application best practices orsomething, or maybe it was
interview tips.
So I guess what I'm saying isMatt has been marionetting us
behind the scenes for a longtime.
Marionetting us behind thescenes for a long time.
Thanks, Matt.
I hope it's been helpful.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, just excited to help, however I can.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
So, matt, can you tell us a little bit about
yourself and how this topicbecame so prominent for you?

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Let's see, I, you know, incollege I was studying
neuroscience and um was justfascinated by how the brain
works and how the interactionbetween what's going on in our
brains and our bodies and howthat's connected to everything
that makes us human, how we'refeeling, how we're thinking, how

(02:41):
we're acting.
And so after college I startedworking at a mind-body medicine
institute at Mass GeneralHospital, the Benson Henry
Institute, and there wasstudying the physiological
effects of stress andinterventions to target stress
and, in particular, was lookingat meditation-based

(03:03):
interventions that were tryingto kind of have the opposite
effect of some of thephysiological effects of stress.
And it was fascinating.
I mean, I saw, you know, wewere doing studies showing that
that things that you're doing,like meditating over the course
of eight weeks, can have effectson your physiology in the way

(03:23):
of like affecting your um whichgenes are turned on and off and
having like that profound andimpact, yeah, over that short a
timeframe.
Um, and you know it wasn't.
That's what we were studying,but it's not unique to
meditation.
It's really that, by learning,by experience, what we're doing
really has an impact on um, ourbodies, and vice versa, like

(03:44):
what we're doing, you know, withour bodies is affecting how
we're feeling and thinking andbehaving.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
And so.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think that kind of really kicked it off for me.
I, you know stress was alwayslike a factor, even if it wasn't
the primary thing.
I studied in grad school atDuke, as you mentioned, and was
studying the neuroscience ofkind of risk and resilience for
developing different disordersand of course, we were always
looking at how stress was cominginto play and a factor there.

(04:13):
And then after grad school andthen was studying kind of
digital interventions fortargeting anxiety for young
adults and really was fascinatedby the different ways that we

(04:37):
might be able to use thesedigital tools to expand access
to care.
And so, um, I after thatstarted working at um, some
industry, some companies thatwere looking at this and saying,
okay, how can we really getthese tools out to people in a
way that's going to help as manypeople as possible?

(04:57):
Um, and so I started working atmodern health and was
overseeing our clinical strategyfor in-app content and our
groups there Did that for acouple of years and then started
consulting In the background.
I was doing the privatepractice piece as well.
And then started working about ayear ago at the company called

(05:21):
Scenario At that time it wascalled Loop at the company
called Scenario at that time wascalled Loop and looking at how
we can use digital tools thereto help improve kind of a
variety of different everydaychallenges that we're having.
The original focus was onsocial anxiety and then
loneliness, but we soon realizedthat kind of the approaches we
were using were much broaderthan that and could help with a

(05:42):
variety of different challengesand really things that are
bringing up stress in our livesand thinking about, like, how do
we flexibly, uh, adapt andapproach these situations so
that we can, you know, decreasesome of the negative effects of
of the stressors, um, that arehaving on our day-to-day life?

Speaker 3 (05:59):
that's cool, that's really cool.
What, what, what is stress?
I mean, I, I, that's such astupid question.
No, it's a great question,because when I just hear stress
now, I think, well, that's justlike a catch-all word for bad,
bad feelings.
You know who isn't stressed,right?

(06:21):
Who would say that they're notstressed.
You know who isn't stressed,right, like, who would say that
they're not stressed?
But I almost think, like that,we that it's so vague that I'm
not even sure what it is asidefor like a more vague term for
anxiety or depression, or justgeneral ickiness, yeah yeah, no,
and you're definitely not alonethere.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
I think the term is just used in so many different
contexts that it kind of doesstart to lose meaning.
I think the definition that Ithink is the best is stress is
when something happens in ourlives that feels beyond our
ability to cope with it, andit's especially true when
there's situations that areunexpected or can't be

(07:03):
controlled, and so that isreally broad.
Then the other part of stressis there's the stressor, there's
the thing that causes stress,and then there's the stress
response.
That's your body marshallingresources to deal with the
situation.
You're probably familiar withyour heart beating faster to get

(07:23):
more blood to your muscles andyour brain.
You're breathing more quicklyto get more oxygen.
Your muscles are tensing up toprepare you to run away or fight
.
That's all stress.
Like you said, stress gets thisnegative connotation, but
stress isn't necessarily a badthing.
It's this natural response.
There are many situations wherestress is good and can actually

(07:45):
be helpful and adaptive, and soI think that's a really
important thing that you knowhappy to talk more about of like
how we kind of think about whenstress is helpful, when it's
not, how the ways we think aboutstress might actually impact
how, whether it's going to behelpful or unhelpful, and so I
think those are all like reallyimportant things to kind of
tease apart there.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
I'm like very invested in this topic because I
have a partner who ischronically stressed and, um,
I'm I would love to know how tohelp him or how he can help
himself.
And so I guess the first thingis, yeah, this idea that there's
good stress or bad stress, ormaybe that stress could just be
conceptualized differently.
How is there like a tippingpoint for stress when it becomes

(08:34):
bad?
Or is it more about attitude,like how do we know if stress is
good or bad?

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah.
So I think kind of it's thiscomplex's this complex interplay
, and part of it is so howyou're viewing it.
So part of it is the intensityand the chronicity, so like, are
you under really extreme stress?
Are you experiencing somereally kind of traumatic on the
high end of your you know sometraumatic event that is
happening and so you know thatmight be.

(09:03):
You know the level of stress isgonna have not necessarily
completely determine the impact,but it's gonna have a big, big
effect there.
Then there's the how kind ofchronic it is.
Is it something that'shappening one time?
Is it happening kind of all thetime?
Like low levels of kind ofchronic, ongoing stress can be
really difficult as well.
And then it's like is thestress something that, yeah,

(09:29):
that we're able to kind of likerecover from?
So I think an analogy that Ifind helpful is like, let's say,
you are going to go for a run,right?
So if you're like, all right,I'm going to start right now and
I'm just going to run and notstop, Like if you just did that
for like days on end, that's notgoing to be stressful, yeah.

(09:51):
Be stressful, you know your bodywouldn't last that long.
Like it's not something that'sreally sustainable, right, and
would would kind of probably allagree that running forever
isn't something that's reallygoing to work out that well.
On the other hand, like exerciseis one of the best research
things that's actually, like youknow, improves our physical and
mental health, right, like so,when you go and you're, you know

(10:15):
, get physically active, youknow, on a regular schedule,
multiple times a week, but thenyou have time to recover from
the stress of the exercise, thenand um, and you know, exercise
actually has some parallels to,like, the physiological effects
of stress, um, interestingly,but when you're kind of pushing
your body in that way and thenyou can recover, it actually is
really good for your body, it'sused to that challenge.

(10:36):
And then, um, let's say, thenyou do have to go for a long run
, um, you're being chased by abear or something.
Then, like, you're ready to doit, right, your body's ready to
go.
You're, like I've been runningevery day.
Um, I hope you didn't, you know, none of our listeners, you
know, run into a bear that'strying to chase them down.
But it's like I think like that,that's preparing your body then

(10:58):
and or that type of situationand so like the actual like
active of the exercise moreregularly isn't necessarily a
bad thing.
And I think for stress we canthink about it the same way,
Like if you're constantlystressed, then it's going to
take a toll on your body.
But if you have, like you knowthat there are a bunch of things
that really push you and arebeyond your comfort zone and

(11:20):
ability to cope, but then you docope with them and then you
have time to recover, likethat's actually something that's
going to be helpful in the longrun and can be really useful.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
So it's really it's more of the up and down, it's
like the stress and then beingable to recover, versus like
stress all the time.
That's really the key thatmakes it helpful and not harmful
.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
That's one of the keys.
Yeah, we wouldn't saynecessarily it's the only one,
but I think that's definitelyone of.
One of those factors is like doyou have the ability to, to
recover from that um?

Speaker 1 (11:55):
recover to what degree?
Like recover to the point whereyou are no longer stressed at
all, um, or like, if you havechronic stress at work, is like
every weekend getting somedowntime.
Is that enough, or does itdepend on how you conceive of
the stress?
I'm trying to calculate whenexactly jason will die, so I'm

(12:17):
just trying to.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
There's a handy calculator there for the right
or, if you like, switch betweenstresses right, like if you, you
know, on the weekend there's adifferent kind of stress than
the work.
Work day.
Is that?
Does that count?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
yeah, I think like different.
I mean the, the short-termstress response is actually like
a very short time scale.
So we're talking on the orderof like something that's
happening over you know a coupleof minutes, and so like when we
think so, that's like.
But when those then add up,right.
So if you have like that ahundred times a day, then that's

(12:54):
going to be different and solike it's.
I think the different types ofstressors matter for our kind of
flexibility and ability to copewith them.
But yeah, I think some of it isalso like how often is this
you're having this stressresponse?
And I think, like the wayyou're viewing it does come into
play, right.
So do you see it?
There's actually some greatresearch by Aaliyah Crum, who's

(13:17):
at Stanford, on like stressmindset is the research and she
found that people who like seestress and there's some
interesting interventions wherethey kind of like help people
train this way of thinking isthat like if you see stress is
all bad and all negative, itends up kind of being a
self-fulfilling prophecy that itactually is worse for you than
if you're able to see it as like.

(13:38):
Well, stress actually sometimescan be helpful and adaptive and
help me to grow and, and so ifyou're, then see that you are
able to benefit more from these,these moments of like when
you're being pushed andchallenged versus and you don't
have some of the negativeeffects, um, of the long-term
stress, like I don't know ifshe's looked at dying sooner

(13:58):
necessarily as the outcome, butuh I think they've been shorter
term, uh, scales of the studies.
But yeah, like some of the othernegative effects in terms of
like, yeah, just how you're likethe, you know the oxygenation
of the and the oxidation I meanof you know the, how much
nitrous oxide you have in yourblood, and things like that

(14:19):
which are kind of like the shortterm, some of those short term
negative effects kind of likethe short term um, some of those
short-term negative effects,things like that.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Okay, well then.
So if the stress mindset isthat you should see stress as
good sometimes but you know me,I'm like always stressed.
But how do you know when it'slike too much?
Right, like there's some peoplelike me who just seem to
chronically get themselves intoa stressful situation or

(14:48):
constantly overloadingthemselves.
If you're like, oh, all stressis good, but then you're
overloading yourself, how do youknow when to cap that or to
limit that?

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, so I think there's a couple different
answers to that cap that or tolike limit that, yeah, yeah, so
I think there's a coupledifferent answers to that.
One is like you know, as, asyou probably talked about and oh
yeah, I remember in some of theprevious episodes you're
talking about like noticing,like getting in tune with um,
you know the, the.
You're like something you'redoing cbt right, like looking at
what are different triggers,what are the different thoughts

(15:23):
that happen, behaviors thathappen, physiological responses,
so kind of noticing how yourbody is responding in different
situations and saying like, okay, after a day of doing this, am
I completely exhausted and havenothing kind of left and am I
completely depleted?
Am I more irritable?
Am I like?
Looking at how you're respondingcan be some of those clues of

(15:44):
like, ok, maybe these are really, you know, things that are
pushing me beyond kind of thelimits of what's, what's making
me to to function really well.
You can also see, like, whenyou're in that like medium, like
stress zone, which is reallykind of the ideal, you often
like feel energized, you oftenlike are really able to focus

(16:06):
better and perform really well,and then, when it starts getting
to be too much, it's actuallyharder to focus and harder to
perform well, and you noticethat maybe things are getting
pushed a little too far.
So I think being able to tuneinto this, either on your own or
having someone, either a friendor professional, helping you to
notice some of these of yourown like warning signs and like

(16:28):
when things are kind of gettingto be too much, can be helpful
to say like all right, it seemslike the the impacts of stress
are clearly clearly affecting me.
Um, and so how can I do somethings to help myself recover a
little bit more?
What are some things that aregoing to be rejuvenating, more
relaxing, uh, to bring down someof the stress level and
counteract some of that?

Speaker 1 (16:48):
It seems to me there's a okay, there's a
difference between two kinds ofstresses I'll bring up, but I
wonder if there's an actualphysiological difference between
the two.
So one is somebody who isstressed because of objective
life circumstances that arestressful, so like somebody who

(17:09):
can't feed their family andthey're just like constantly
having to, you know, figure outhow to make money.
It's just go, go, go.
And then there's a kind ofstress where it's more about
perspective.
So, like I've noticed ingetting a phd, I'm a fairly like
lower stress person and I thinkone of the reasons is because

(17:29):
I'm able to say basically, likeit's going to work out and this
isn't the be all, end all for me.
So, like, approaching I thereare, there were some milestones
that I would approach reallydifferently than my colleagues
who I I mean one of them, Ithink like developed like a
diagnosis around the MAP or soaround the thesis paper, and so

(17:50):
that's more like that's lessabout objective circumstances
and more about the way you thinkabout the stressful
circumstance.
Like this passing this MAP isso important.
What if I fail?
And then who will I be?
Where will I go?
Everything is catastrophic, isthere like does that get
processed?

(18:11):
The same exact way in the brainand body, or is there a
difference?

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, it's a great question and I think it's like.
I think that is a reallyimportant distinction to make.
I think, like there, in termsof how it's processed, it
depends a little bit whatexactly you're getting out there
.
Like, if you're worried aboutputting food on the table right,
then that the the worry isgoing to have a lot of the same

(18:40):
physiological effects as ifyou're worrying about failing
your MAP or dissertation, and so, like that worry if you don't
have enough food, that's adifferent type, that's going to
like impact your body in adifferent way and that, you know
, also is a way of kind of liketaxing the body having a
stressful impact.
So like if you, you know, yeah,if your body's not, if you're

(19:01):
malnourished, like that'sdefinitely going to have like a
impact in a different way.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Um, I guess maybe even a better example might be
like a resident who has to work80 hours a week and they don't
really have a choice about it.
So it's just like this veryobjective stress versus versus
like is there a?

Speaker 3 (19:20):
objective stress though I mean to Matt's point.
It's like one is the examplesyou're bringing is like pure
survival right, like you'reblocked from, like certain like
basic needs of like food orsomething like that, whereas,
like you know, yeah, I'm justwondering how much is objective
versus subjective?

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Because right.
I mean, there might be residentswho are like this is amazing,
this is like my life's callingand that yeah and someone else
might be like, and that's whereI think these interact and like
why, um, you know, I'm excitedto talk about some of the like
ways we can target the, themindsets, but also the
environments and both kind ofpieces of that, because I think,
like, like you said, we can'tin many situations it's really

(20:04):
hard to disentangle the tworight, like if we, like you,
were rarely completely, you know, isolated, meditating in you
know the mountains by ourselves,and like, not interacting with
the world, like if the world, ifwe're not interpreting anything

(20:26):
that's happened, like we, it'shard to kind of even
conceptualize what that would belike if we didn't have any
interpretation of, like, whatwas going on.
And so you know again, thereare those like basic like, if
those basic needs aren't beingmet, that's going to have these
physiological impacts as well.
But I think outside of that itis a lot of it is, I mean,
you're bringing up like some ofthese are maybe more
controllable than others.
And that's one of the keythings of like often how

(20:47):
stressful people find things.
And so if things are perceivedas uncontrollable, that's often
more stressful or unpredictable.
But it is that perception like,even like one of the best
measures that is used in thestress literature is this
perceived stress scale, or atleast one of the most commonly
used measures.
I don't know if I'd say thebest, but it's the perceived

(21:08):
stress scale.
It's like how do you perceivethe stress?
And that is just so baked intoall of our models of stress is
you have to kind of interpretthings and that there is a level
of subjectivity to that.
But it's also not devoid fromwhat's going on in our lives,
and so we need to kind of thinkabout both.

(21:28):
How are we thinking aboutthings and how are we targeting
the sources of our stress andtrying to decrease, minimize
them, get them in a state thatwe're able to better handle them
?

Speaker 3 (21:43):
What are different sources of stress?
Just because, like, we'retalking about controllable and
uncontrollable and we're talkingabout work and relationship,
I'm curious if there's like Imean I think when people think
about stress at least when I doit's like the obvious stuff,
right, deadlines, or like afight with someone.
Are there like secret sourcesof stresses that?

(22:05):
Or like where are there?
Are there some that are likeworse than others?

Speaker 2 (22:10):
or interesting well what?

Speaker 3 (22:12):
what stresses us out?

Speaker 1 (22:13):
let's talk about all of our individual stressors.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Um, I know that there's, like you know they're,
the american psychologicalassociation does a survey every
year of like the top kind ofsources of stress and for them,
like in the last one they putout I was just looking this over
like actually adult education,like college, you know that grad
school, that MAP, jacqueline,that you mentioned you know is

(22:39):
definitely up there A lot ofpeople who are in education as
adults are reporting that as abig source of stress.
Health, both physical healthproblems, mental health, is what
people are reporting as sourcesof stress.
Work for people who areemployed, and money, as we were
talking about.
And then relationships are bigas well.

(23:00):
So whether it's intimaterelationships, family
relationships, friendrelationships, so those are some
of like the top things thatpeople often are reporting and
you know.
And then there's like thesocietal level things as well,
like social division and thingslike that are highly rated.
And so there's like the kind ofgetting back to Jacqueline's

(23:24):
point.
For a lot of these there are the, the objective and the
subjective.
So like there's like the Kindof getting back to Jacqueline's
point.
For a lot of these there arethe, the objective and the
subjective.
So like there's one of thequestions delve deeper into like
money right as the cause ofstress.
But One of the things was likemoney is the cause of a lot of
fights or tension in my family.
Is what some of the one of thethings people are reporting?
So it's both the fact that,like if people don't have enough
money to feed their family,that is stressful and that like

(23:48):
you need food, and there's thelike added layer of stress there
of like how that leads tofamily tension and fights and
arguments and like how you knowthe the interpersonal kind of
relationship piece that's that'slayered on top of that is also
an added source of stress.
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
How do you deal with stress?
Because, as you mentioned, gradschool and the thesis, the MAP
paper that we had, I just had amemory of you being in the midst
of writing that paper and wewere in this really tough class
and stuff like that.
I remember you said at somepoint that that was probably the
more stressful times in gradschool, but I remember you as

(24:28):
always like even keeled, likeit's so funny that we're talking
about stress with you becauseyou seem to you do like really
hard stuff and don't seemstressed at all.
You're always smiling, you'realways, like you know, engaged
and like curious I've never seenyou go fuck this Like I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, tapped out.
I've never seen you do that.

(24:49):
So how do you deal with it?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
so yeah, so I do.
I mean I I do get stressed, uh,I think like for, but I think
like what?
Some of the things youmentioned are things that I find
helpful.
Like you mentioned like kind ofbeing curious and I think like
that for the mindset, likethat's kind of overarching.
One of the things I see is likethat the our mindsets have a

(25:11):
big role and that's like kind ofthat alia crumb literature and
itets have a big role and that'sthat Aaliyah Crum literature
and it's backed up with otherliterature.
There's single-sessioninterventions and those target
all different things.
But in particular, a lot of theapproaches are like how do we
help people have like a moreopen mindset about things and be

(25:33):
like curious?
So like bringing some opennessand curiosity, kind of being
able to like, from the cognitiverestructuring literature, see
things in different ways and tryand like say like all right,
what's a different way to viewthis situation?
Um can be really helpful andjust something that, like I,
often is like a go-to for me,just like does happen.
Um, you know, somewhatnaturally, and then I've tried

(25:56):
to develop it more, um, so I tryand be like how can I like have
fun with this, learn somethingnew, like um, you know, see, see
, kind of like the flip sides oflike, okay, these are the parts
that are hard about it andthese are the parts that, like,
are really cool about what I'mdoing and like you know where
I'm thinking about learning andgrowing, um, so I think those

(26:17):
all have been helpful.
And then I have found meditation.
Like I started meditating incollege and I'm not always the
best about doing it regularly,but kind of having a, a
meditation practice andmindfulness is helpful.
When I exercise, it's helpful,but I'm pretty bad about getting
into a regular exercise routine, so, but when I do it, it's
helpful, but I'm pretty badabout getting into a regular
exercise routine, but when I doit, I find that also helpful.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Well, that part's interesting too.
I mean, first of all, I justfind meditation so stressful, so
I was kind of talking about themechanism there, but again with
the objective and subjectivelike.
One of the reasons I thinkJason is so stressed is because
there's a lack of sleep and hisjob is very physical, so he's
exerting his body so much, um,and yet exercise is often

(26:58):
prescribed as like a you know,something helpful for stress, um
, is it?
Does that depend on where thestress is coming from?
Like his exercise only helpfulif you're, if most of the stress
is kind of coming from yourhead?
Um, when, when does, yeah, when?
Is mindfulness maybe moreappropriate?

(27:18):
How is mindfulness good forstress when a lot of people's
experiences of deep frustration?

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think the, I mean like, what is terms
of, like, what's kind of Isexercise different?
How, for different types ofstress?
I Don't think I have likenecessarily an immediate, like
good answer for that.
I think, like it does, you know, different people are drawn to

(27:46):
it and like the different, likewith everything, like there are
a lot of nuances and so itdepends, like, what type of
exercise, how much.
If he's already doing A lot ofthings that are really physical,
um, yeah, maybe there is bodiesalready taxed in that way, and
so that's you know, um, thereare other things that would,
would help, be more helpful, orlike be there's little added
value at that point, potentially, um of additional exercise.

(28:09):
Um, with sleep, you know, yeah,like sleep impacts how we're
feeling.
So if he's having trouble withsleep, like, um, I think, like
you know, I've worked withpeople in doing cognitive
behavioral therapy for insomniaand like those treatments can be
, um, you know, challenging togo through but can make a real
difference for people.
Um, but like how that comesinto play for me.

(28:30):
Again, this doesn't work foreveryone, but, like with
mindfulness, if I wake up in themiddle of the night and I'm
thinking about stuff.
Um, my practice of doingmeditation or mindfulness helps
me to like to let that go, tolet the threads like my mind's
racing about something, or I'mworried about something.
I'm like, oh, all right, this isthe middle of the night,
worried thought, that's onething that like helps me to like

(28:52):
get a little distance from it.
And then I'm like all right,here's, I'm like, if this is a
real concern, I can kind ofthink about it more in the
morning when I'm in a you knowbetter headspace to kind of
think about this.
And then, with the mindfulnessalso, like, I've practiced like
bringing my attention back overand over and over again.
And so I like you know I dothat in the middle of the night
if I'm up and I'm like all right, I'm going to like bring my

(29:13):
attention Like I'm going to letgo.
I'm latched, my mind's latchingon to the thought again, and it
maybe does it like 50 times,but I keep like letting it go
and coming back and I'm like allright, maybe, like when I'm
tired I'll fall asleep, butright now I'm not falling asleep
.
So I guess like, and thepractice has helped me to.

(29:37):
Then put less pressure on thatfor myself, like I need to fall
asleep right now and so thoseare all things, that kind of
like ways those come into playfor me in those situations.
Again, like everyone'sdifferent, everyone has
different needs and like, so youknow, this might not work at
all or different variationsmight be more helpful for him,
but those are kind of like in mysituation what those look like
or how they come into play.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Do you really meditate regularly?
Do you have a regular practice?

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, I mean like I'll go through periods where I
won't do it at all for like amonth or two and then I'll be
doing it like four or five daysa week for like 10 or 15 minutes
a day.
That's kind of like my practice.
And then, um, but yeah, I, Ifind it helpful.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I kind of like I think

(30:20):
it's a great technique, like Ifind it really helpful.
But as like you both weresaying, or at least talking with
saying like you were, you weresaying that, like you know, you
don't like it as a technique,right.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Well, I honestly I like mindfulness a lot.
Meditation I find reallyfrustrating.
So everything you were talkingabout, like noticing your
thoughts and being able to kindof label them and say like this
is not something I need to focuson right now, I can let that go
, um.
Or releasing judgments aboutmyself, um, so basically,
getting a little bit more metaand being able to look at the
content in my brain and sort ofdecide what to focus on and

(30:55):
notice what's pulling me in ornot, I find that very helpful.
But when I have to go throughlike a 10-minute meditation,
just the mind wandering and thenbringing it back over and over
again tends to frustrate me andI guess it just doesn't.
I guess it just doesn't feelrelaxing.

(31:15):
So I've always thought of it as,like you know, mindfulness
doesn't need to be relaxing, butover time it's really helpful
in kind of getting the geographyof your brain under control and
being able to.
I can see how it would reducestress in the long term because
it allows you to not focus onthe thoughts that might be
increasing your perception ofstress, for instance, like it

(31:37):
could.
It could help cut through somerumination, um, I just, for
whatever reason, find that likewhen I have to do that as a
practice I can almost do it morelike as I'm walking through my
day and I notice thoughts comingin, just be like, yeah, I don't
need to focus on that.
But when I have to sit down andlike think about what's

(32:00):
happening in my body and, likeyou know, get in a comfortable
position with my eyes closed, Ijust it immediately kind of
makes me more stressed out.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, because I think like and I mean I think that is
a common experience for me.
Yeah, because I think like andI mean I think that is a common
experience for me like thepractice, like it's a way of
just practicing so that I canbetter do have the mindfulness
in the day to day for me, and solike.
But yeah, I think people are,for some people that when you're
, when you aren't doing theother things at the same time,
it's just like there's too muchright and it's not, and like

(32:30):
it's easier to do a walkingmeditation or you know, or doing
a mindfulness exercise of like,yeah, noticing, tuning into the
sensations of, um, you know,while you're you're typing or
eating or whatever it is, andlike doing other mindfulness
exercises that aren't the likemeditation, like kind of a
seated meditation time for meyeah, for me it's just like is a

(32:52):
practice that helps, like aliterally practicing, like the
way I would practice tennis tothen be better at playing when
I'm playing a game, and so likethat's.
I see the meditation is justlike the practice time, but like
the the.
The other thing I think is likethat it's not like in, and this
is kind of like coming back tothe digital mental health piece.
It's like I saw that, like in,what's available to people

(33:15):
mostly right now is meditation,right, they're like very popular
meditation apps and so, if youwant like some mental health
tools, like most things peopleare going to do is they're going
to go headspace or calm andstart like doing one of those
meditations.
But there's so many you knowdifferent tools that we have
Right, but there's so many youknow different tools that we
have right, like as clinicians,that people are just like you.

(33:36):
It's hard to have access to ifyou're not in therapy, and so I
think, like that's one of thethings that drew me to kind of
digital mental health and likethe work at Scenario was like
doing, thinking, like how do weget some of these tools, other
tools, to people?
Like, if people don't likemeditation, right, or if they've
been doing it, doing it and itis does work for them, but like
then you just have like only onetool, right, and so how do we

(33:58):
like get these other tools topeople?
Um, and so that's where, like,yeah, working on something like
scenario, which is like you'reable to then use these ways to
personalize techniques and andteach them to people you know,
and people to practice and learnother techniques that could be
really helpful for them.
Um, that's what gets me kind ofexcited about like where we're
at right now, about like how wecan, um, yeah, help people with

(34:20):
other tools yeah, tell us moreabout the taking a bath, which I
don't like to do.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
You know, like I I think of just I just get annoyed
at the um, almost like the, theoverused um strategies of just
relaxing, which you know.
If you're in a really stressfultime you got deadlines you get
in a fight with someone.
Like you know, doing somethinglike taking a bath doesn't

(34:48):
really fix it right.
So like what, what do we knowwhat?
What tools are, think, ways tohelp are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
or yeah, and I think that's like really the key
though, like that it's reallybeen popularized.
The people that like if you'restressed, you need to do things
like take a bubble bath, right,but but as you said, that's not
getting at like any of thesources of stress and so, like,
what actually does is likefiguring out, like often there
are things that, right, we'reavoiding is like and that and so

(35:16):
like a lot of the sources ofstress are things that are
difficult in some way oruncomfortable, and so it could
be like difficult conversations.
It could be like, you know,starting on that to-do list when
you really don't want to right,and it's like this isn't a fun
task and it's like somethingthat like isn't enjoyable.
It's like being how do younavigate?

(35:41):
Like conflict at work, or likehow do you like support a loved
one who's really struggling withthings, and like those are like
a lot of things that arecausing stress and right now,
like, most of the tools outthere like have nothing to do
with actually addressing thesethings right, and so, like
that's where, um, you know thethese types of tools that I'm
working on, like at scenario,we're trying to target, like how
do you actually, um, you know,approach some of the things that

(36:04):
are the sources of stress andin an effective way?
Um, so what we do is you comeinto the app and it says, like
what's the situation you'redealing with?
Um, and so you just like writeit out, like let's say, um, yeah
, I'm getting um in argumentswith a partner, okay, like, and
that's like a big source ofstress.
Or um, yeah, or my partnershave is really stressed.
Like let's use the you knowjacqueline example.

(36:26):
You were saying, like mypartner is really stressed, has
a difficult like time, like, hasa stressful work life isn,
isn't sleeping well and I justfeel kind of helpless, like I
don't know what to do to supportthem.
And then we ask what is yourgoal in this situation?
And thinking through drawingfrom evidence-based practices

(36:48):
like DBT, does this various CBTs?
Thinking through what is myreal goal here?
Like sometimes, like even thatin and of itself can be a real
intervention.
It's like, am I trying to likeget a certain result, you know,
am I trying to like make surethat I get like something that I
want?
Am I trying to like show up forthe other person and like is
the relationship like really themost important thing that I'm

(37:09):
focused on?
Is it my own, like self-respect, or like kind of like having my
own like emotional needs orwhat I need to put at the
forefront?
And like what if those are inconflict?
Like what if I can't have itall.
Like I, of course.
Like, whenever I think aboutthis or go through this, I'm
like, yeah well, I want allthose things right All the time,
but like what if you can't haveall of them all the time?

(37:31):
Like, even going through theexercise of like, articulating
them and prioritizing, like well, right now I'm actually showing
up for my partner is the mostimportant thing.
Like, even though I know I'mright about this argument, you
know that like, like, I don'tneed to make that point because
that's not the most importantthing.
The most important thing isthat I want to show that, like
I'm there for for you, you know,and so, like, I think that can

(37:55):
be like and uh, like, subtle butimportant.
Like step of an, like microintervention or like a piece of
an intervention, right, um, solike, what's your goal?
And then, like, having insightinto what, like, what are what's
getting in the way?
Like, what are the kind of theblockers that are showing up?
Like, why is this somethingthat's challenging it?
It's like, oh, we kind of fallinto the same patterns or

(38:15):
arguments or we're just stuck.
I don't know what the next stepis.
So even figuring that out andhaving some guided questions to
get there can be really helpful.
And if you don't know what theproblem is, it's really hard to
know where to start.
And then thinking about, likewhat's an effective approach.

(38:36):
And that's where, like we, likeI've you know here, like in
scenarios, example, like curateda list of, like all these
different evidence basedapproaches, starting with like
interpersonal things, likethings to you know, navigate
conflict with other people, belike supporting other others,

(38:58):
but then also like what evenlike if it's just something that
you're, you know, ruminatingabout or struggling with like
what are some evidence basedapproaches you can draw from,
because that, like often, peopleyeah, like I said, there's just
only a few of those that areoften in the literature so, like
, being able to like have thoseas like examples and what they
mean and explain them just inthe moment when you really need
it, can be a really helpful wayto go.

(39:19):
And then what we do is we putthose into what we're calling a
visualization.
Visualization means differentthings to different people, but
it's really drawing from some ofthe, even the skills training
literature, the psychoeducation,but also the exposure
literature, and so here it walksyou through a situation.

(39:39):
Let's say, I'm going to havethat conversation now with my
partner about all right, I'venoticed that you come back from
work and you're really stressedand then we get an argument and
then you don't sleep well andthings like that.
But I don't know where to start.
I've been avoiding thisconversation, um.
So then walking through, likealmost like a narrative scene

(39:59):
that you can read or listen to,helps, like, bring up some of
the like, um, the emotions thatare going to likely come up in
that situation, so that if it'ssomething I've been avoiding
because I'm like I don't want to, like, get in this, I don't
want to feel uncomfortable, Idon't want to feel upset by

(40:20):
going through it ahead of time,it helps to bring down some of
the emotions so that when you doit in real life, you feel
better prepared, it's lessoverwhelming.
So it's both illustrating how,some ideas.
It's not telling you how to doit, but it's some ideas for how
you could do this in apotentially effective way,
trying to get some of thatflexibility that I mentioned
before of like, all right, oh, Ihadn't quite thought about.
Like, maybe if I try thisapproach or like think about it
this way, it could, things couldgo a little differently than

(40:43):
they did, you know, when we getin the same argument.
And then, like now, I feel kindof better prepared because
instead of just like going inhot, like I'm ready to like have
this, like kind of I've alreadyworked through it myself and so
I'm ready to kind of like focuson my goal, which is showing up
for my partner, you know, um,and so that's like one example
of like how we're using thesetools in um in a way to kind of

(41:04):
like personalize these typeslike of examples and situations.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
I'm having some, some murky thoughts that I'm going
to try to pull apart, um, so I Ilove the idea that it's like
we're actually going to get tothe bottom of your stressor and
try to solve it, so that theroot of your stress is not there
anymore.
Um, I'm, I guess I'm.

(41:29):
That feels a little bit like anapproach to well, it feels a
lot like an approach to anxiety,and so I guess my thoughts are
murky, because so Kibbe broughtup the bath situation I feel
like a lot of people opt forrelaxation techniques because of

(41:51):
the physical component thatstress can take on, and I mean,
maybe there's a conflationbetween physical stress and
emotional stress.
I know when I think of chronicstress, when there's not
necessarily anything to solve.
So, for instance, my patientswho are going through fertility
treatments, where it's just likewe are infertile, there's

(42:15):
nothing I can do except for goto these appointments.
I can see why relaxation tendsto be the advice, because it's
like, what can you confrontright now?
Um other than to just relaxyour body, which might be like a
little bit like might bestrained from the effects of

(42:38):
your stress?
So I guess, what, what is theplace of relaxation?
Um, and maybe what tools mightyou use if the stress isn't
something solvable or somethingyou can necessarily confront,
but just something you're livingthrough?

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, really good question.
I think there are a coupledifferent components, so I do
think there's a place forrelaxation.
I think I think more of theissue is that it's overused than
it like shouldn't be used, andI think, like relaxation is
helpful.
It helps, like bring down, youknow, it can help bring down the
stress, um, but it like, likeyou said, it doesn't solve the

(43:17):
problem and often people areusing relaxation in situations
that like problem solving orlike identifying, like targeting
the problem, would be morehelpful when you can't I mean I
also have patients who are veryresistant to it.
Like people say they don't havetime for it for some people
makes them feel like, you know,notice their bodies, which they
don't usually, and they're liketrying to bring it down, expect,
have these expectations that'sgoing to happen immediately and

(43:39):
then, when you don't, it feelsmore stressful.
So they're all differentreasons where relaxation might
not be the go-to, um, I think,but it is a tool that I think,
yeah, is useful in somesituations.
I think acceptance is anotherone that's really hard, but it
is like an important piece thatlike is you know, the

(43:59):
mindfulness can help with someacceptance sometimes, but like,
I think, more explicitly, kindof working through, like how do
I come to terms with this andaccept, like whether it's a
particular outcome or the theunknown of what the outcome, and
like how?
do I come to kind of like makesense of this for myself and in

(44:21):
a way that, like I am able toaccept the reality of like what
is happening right now, ratherthan kind of like fighting
against the reality of it.
You know, like I thinkacceptance is a hard concept
because a lot of people think itmeans that you're okay with
what's happening where, whenit's not right, um, so I think,
like these can help get at thatby kind of like illustrating

(44:44):
examples of like, how you mightlike we can also do like
self-talk in the app and so like, if you're talking to kind of
like your inner thoughts in away of like, how can you do that
in a kind of like your innerthoughts in a way of like, how
can you do that in a kind ofaccepting way?
And then there, you know, Ithink a lot of times there is
then this like there are thatinterpersonal, there are those
interpersonal pieces later ontop.
So like, if you're goingthrough the infertility

(45:05):
treatment, like, does it add tolike kind of difficulties in
your relationship?
Does it help go through, likeyou know, with the partner, with
like friends and family anddifferent ways, and so like if
those are also then contributingto the stressors, like thinking
through, like all right, how doI have those conversations is
another kind of like what youcan target some of the sources.

(45:26):
It's not the original source,but it's like the secondary
sources of stress.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Can you give an example of how most people use
scenario?

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, so people use it.
I mean there's, it's cool.
There's a variety of differentuse cases.
Like the people are using itfor job stress there are a lot
of relationship stresses, sopeople are in relationships or
like people who are in newrelationships Like.
So there are a lot of people whoare saying like all right, how
do I you know, I'm going on afirst date and nervous about it,

(45:59):
like like I want to prepare forthis.
How do I kind of go through andyou can practice.
Like some people are like I'mterrible at making small talk,
right, which you know it'sjudgmental kind of self-raising,
but like it's, you know that'show people are viewing it.
And so it's like how do I?
It makes them reallyuncomfortable.
And so how do they kind ofpractice being with that
discomfort of like making smalltalk, both like generating some

(46:20):
ideas of like, oh yeah, here'slike different things I could
talk about I wasn't eventhinking about.
Or and like what if there islike a moment of silence like in
the conversation?
Like how do I cope with that,right?

Speaker 1 (46:34):
so um like so stressful yeah exactly did you
feel the stress?

Speaker 2 (46:38):
so, like, how do I, and so like going through that
and being able to like toleratethat um, which I know I don't
know if you two have had thisexperience?
Like a lot of you know,therapists I know whether or not
they were really comfortablewith silence beforehand become
more comfortable, likethroughout their training and
working as clinicians and like,whereas a lot of you know
non-clinicians might not be.
And so I think, like you know,you can, you can practice.

(47:01):
That's something that, like youcan kind of train and get more,
um, comfortable with thediscomfort.
And so, yeah, those are alldifferent types of situations,
but sometimes people are alsolike, how do I?
Yeah, like there's somethingabout my own mental health or
the mental health of a friendwho, like I don't know how to

(47:22):
have this conversation with themabout it, like there's
something that I've noticed thatthey're not taking care of
themselves.
How do I have this conversation?
I've had, um, you know, I'mconcerned about my teenager
who's like is, like seems reallyanxious after um, you know it's
.
I think there's like someconnection between kind of

(47:42):
what's going on like maybe eventhe parent doesn't know like
what's going on with, likethere's, you know their
interactions with social mediaand like what they're feeling
their kids stressed about.
They have a friend or partnerwho's, like depressed and they
don't know how to like talk tothem about it, and so these can
be all things that, like peoplecan practice and can practice
like doing, and so, like I thinkthe I didn't mention before but

(48:05):
scenario uses AI to helppersonalize things, but I think
a lot of uses that I've seenthat are not ideal is AI is like
here we'll tell you what to say, and I think that's not going
to be helpful for people in thelong run.
And so here it's more about itmight help give you some ideas,
but it's more about the practiceof going through a realistic

(48:27):
not you know, it's not going tobe what actually happens, you
know verbatim, of course butlike a realistic type of uh
situation, so that then you canbe when you're actually in it.
It feels less of this likeunknown thing that just like
you're trying to do for thefirst time and when it's
happening, and instead you canbe like all right now I like um,
feel better prepared for it,because it's just like you know,

(48:48):
so many things like we preparefor that are not our social
lives and our emotions, and it'slike we prepare for all these,
like professional, academic,like all these things, but like
it, it just you know.
It makes sense that it wouldalso be helpful to prepare for
our social, emotional lives aswell well.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Well, I was just wanting to know about the.
I know I'm stuck on thephysical, but like, are there
physical effects of stress andis this reversible?
Like, if we, you know, usingscenario like how, how much wear
and tear is there on the bodyand if you get treatment for
something like this, can it bereversed or are you just halting

(49:28):
a process?
Do you know anything about thatside of things?

Speaker 2 (49:32):
yeah.
So I mean, like before when yousaid I don't know if you're
joking, but there is, you knowthere are animal studies and
there are.
I think some, um, specificstudy isn't coming to mind, but
I think some like in the humanliterature about like stress and
like life span, right and andmortality rates, and so I think,
like they're, um, you know,certainly in like telomere

(49:54):
length and things like that.
So there are, like you know,physical impacts of stress that
can have things on our healthand like our longevity, um, and
but the, the good news is like,coming back to actually the,
some of the work I was talkingabout when I was a mass general,
is like there are things we cando that, even over the short
term, have an impact.

(50:14):
And like when we go like, yeah,if you start meditating,
exercising, trying likedifferent, you know techniques
that they can actually have animpact over the course of like
several months, techniques thatthey can actually have an impact
over the course of like severalmonths, and you know some of
the, even the effects, um, youknow kind of very different
literature.
But like smoking, like if you,you know, stop smoking after a

(50:36):
few years, like you, youdrastically increase your
chances of living longer again.
Um, and so like they're.
The good news is, like you know, everything we do impacts us
and we can't remove experiencesOnce we've had them.
Experiences have an impact onus, but, going forward the
experiences that we're having,there's a lot we can do to have

(50:59):
really positive impacts, and sothat certainly is true of the
stress literature that when wedo things that are going to have
like be adaptive and healthyand for our physical and mental
health, that that's going to beable to have those downstream
effects on in terms of ourphysical health as well.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
My last question is how can loved ones help?
Right, if we see I mean this isto applying to your situation,
jacqueline but like if you're,if you have a loved one who's
stressed all the time and I knowit's a common thing to be like,
don't stress, you should relax,you should chill out but that
doesn't seem to help.

(51:39):
What can loved ones actually doto help a loved one?
Yeah, they're stressed.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, and I think so.
You know, I think the exampleyou just gave is like a
situation that might come off asinvalidating, right, and so
like how can you, how cansomeone instead be kind of
validating in their response?
And so like that's somethingthat can be really helpful and
something that you know could bepracticed in a situation like
through something like scenario.
But I think, like likeeverything else, it's not always

(52:08):
one size fits all.
I mean, I've seen kind of theopposite end of the spectrum
where sometimes people aretrying to be really validating
and empathic but it ends up kindof like, you know, kind of
enabling in an unhelpful way,right, and so, like, I think
like that's where thesepersonalized interventions
whether it's talking with atherapist or coach who can help

(52:30):
you, or getting some ideas fromsome of these app-based
interventions can help you tothink through, all right, what's
something that might be mosthelpful for this person in this
situation?
Is it actually figuring out away to step back a little bit
and not put as much pressure onthem, or is it helpful to kind
of help push them a little bitand say, like this person's not

(52:53):
getting out of bed, like sayinglike that's OK, why don't you
just stay in bed all day ifthey're really depressed isn't
going to be helpful, and so,like, how do you kind of think
through?
You know different ways thatyou can can really be helped to
be that effective support person, and I think they're different.
You know, yeah, that being ableto have these different tools

(53:13):
and different ways of doing sois really important.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
I remember seeing Caitlin Fang's dissertation
about burnout where it was likeit was like half the group, one
of the groups did like deepbreathing or something like some
relaxation thing and the otherhalf just did their project and
the group that did their projectis the one who had less burnout
.
So it just reminds you that,like a lot of the time it might

(53:39):
feel like the work is what'sburning you out, when it
actually might be maybe likeavoidance or anxiety around the
work or perceptions around thework.
Is scenario like?
Is it available to everyoneright now?
How would somebody sign up?

Speaker 2 (53:54):
yeah, it's in the app store.
Um, I think, if you searchscenario and maybe I can give
you a link um to put in or umget scenario, the website is get
scenarioai.
Um, and right now, just likeall of us, a work in progress,
and so, like I think, like howwe think about, yeah, we'd love
kind of things that you loveabout it, things that you don't,

(54:15):
things that aren't working, soyou can think about how to
improve it as we continueworking on it.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Cool, I'm going to yeah, I'm going to get it and
test it out and see if Jasonwould actually use it and maybe
benefit from it.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
I'm excited to hear my crusade to lengthen his
telomeres.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
We've measured some outcomes in terms of confidence.
Our initial ones is that ithelps boost people.
People report increases inconfidence in approaching these
situations from using it andthen so like, yeah, like a third
of people, so that they um, orthere was a 33 sorry, increase
in confidence levels from beforeto after, um, yeah, this makes
me want to go down a new road,because I will say, like I, I

(54:58):
think confidence might be themajor difference between when
I'm stressed and when I'm notstressed.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
If I have confidence that I can do it, that the
outcome will be good, then Ijust have the normal stress of
like having to use my brain forseveral hours in a row.
But I feel like so much of thetime when I'm stressed, it's
because I'm doubting myself.
I'm getting really, reallyfrustrated because I'm like I
can't do this, I can't do this,and that just skyrockets stress.

(55:24):
So I would think that raisingconfidence would be a huge um
win.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think, like, like Icouldn't agree more.
Like I think that comes back tolike.
At the beginning we were saying, like the you know, thinking
about stress is like when it'sbeyond my ability of like
something that I can handle andlike so, if we're increasing,
like if you were like, oh,actually, like it's the same
situation, but now I'm like moreconfident that I can handle it,
Then that that completelyshifts it, like that makes a

(55:50):
total difference.
So, um, yeah, we still need tolook at kind of like specific
stress outcomes for you know,for this app, but I think, like
confidence for situations is ishugely important in terms of
like how people are going to youknow the stress impacts of it.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
All right.
Well, matt, thank you so muchfor coming to talk to us about
stress.
I know I'm going to try outScenario and I don't know if you
would do.
You want us to provide a linkto our listeners?

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah, that'd be great .
I'll send them along.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Okay, cool and little helpers.
If you want to lengthen ourtelomeres, please give us a rate
, review and subscribe on applepodcasts and spotify.
We would love to hear yourfeedback.
All right, we'll see you all ina couple weeks.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as

(56:38):
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in

(57:19):
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any
reliance on the Thank you asservice or organization
presented or mentioned in thispodcast and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Interview with Dr. Matt Scult: How to Master Stress

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