Interview with Jordon Monroe: Healing Narcissism With Honesty And Heart

Episode Transcript
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends, the podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
So today we have a superexciting guest.
I was really excited he agreedto come on.
And we're gonna return to thetopic of narcissism, but we're
gonna be talking about healingnarcissism itself as well as

(00:21):
healing from narcissistic abuse.
So Kibby, could you kind ofbefore I introduce Jordan, tell
us a little bit about how Coolof Mind can help in this space?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:30):
Yeah, so KulaMind, for people who don't
know, is our community andprogram for people with loved
ones with mental illness oraddiction.
So we teach a lot of educationabout like what is mental
illness, what is your loved onestruggling with, how do you set
healthy boundaries and healyourself.
We have uh I'm noticing that alot of people in the community

(00:52):
right now are struggling withbeing victims of narcissistic
abuse.
Either they're just kind ofrealizing it, or they've had a
recent ex where they feel like,you know, oh my gosh, I was in a
relationship with narcissistsand I'm trying to heal from it.
So if you notice that yourloved one, a partner, someone
close to you has narcissistictraits, and maybe you're

(01:13):
experiencing narcissistic abuse,like you're not sure about your
reality versus theirs.
You keep um hiding orswallowing your own needs in the
relationship.
You feel unseen, unloved, youfeel like you're walking on
eggshells around their temper ortheir ego.
Um just reach out.

(01:34):
So uh you can go to the link inour um in our description, or
you go to KulaMind.com,k-u-l-a-m-in-d dot com.
And you can, you know, reachout to me, book a free call, and
we could talk through whatyou're going through and how I
can help.

Hello, little helpers.
Today we return with one of ourfavorite topics, but I think
discussed from a differentangle, um, that I'm really
excited about.
And uh, to do this, we arebringing on Jordan Monroe.
So the topic is narcissism.
Um, and Jordan Munro is a techentrepreneur turned emotional
healing coach, best known forhis work helping narcissists

(02:11):
recover and reconnect with theirhearts.
After co-founding Outlet BabyCare and launching over a dozen
consumer products, Jordanshifted his focus inward,
embarking on a deep personaljourney of self-discovery after
realizing he lived withnarcissistic patterns.
So today he runs the RecoveringNarcissist, a growing community
and coaching program thathumanizes narcissism and guides

(02:32):
people through genuinetransformation using
self-awareness, spirituality,and emotional integration.
Jordan's mission is to provethat healing is possible and
that even narcissism can be metwith compassion, honesty, and
love.
So check him out athealnarcissism.com or recovering
narcissist on social media.
So welcome, Jordan.
I'm really excited to talk toyou because we've never gotten

(02:54):
to talk to somebody who feelsthat they have personal
experience with this particulardisorder.
And it's so easy to stigmatizethis and to just talk about
narcissistic abuse or to talkabout narcissism in a wholly
negative way.
So I'm really excited for youto come on and have a different
kind of conversation.

Jordon Monroe (03:11):
Well, thanks.
Appreciate it.

Um, could I ask you about your kind of
personal journey?
So I've been following you onInstagram, listening to a lot of
your videos, and I'm reallythrilled to talk to you about
how you help heal narcissism.
Um, but you do this from aplace of kind of having a
personal understanding of it.
So could you tell us a littlebit about that?

Yeah, um so I like I was like life was great
for me.
I sold my business in 2021, andfor most narcissists, it's like
they think they got the bestmental health in the world.
And I was kind of like thatbecause I just was saying, like,
everything's great for me, andall the problems are my wife's

(03:56):
problems, and you know, she wasthe one that went to therapy.
I was totally fine.
And we actually started, youknow, or thought I was fine.
Uh, we started this trip aroundthe world with our family, and
everything was going good, andthen uh we got divorced, and our
relationship kind of you knowbroke up, uh imploded, and um my

(04:18):
narcissism got way worse.
I was like, well, fine, youknow, I'm just gonna become so
much more rich and powerful, andthat'll show her to to ever
think of not wanting me.
Like, I was deeply hurt by it.
And I went on this like totalego trip of like building a new
business to get you know moremoney and um trying to date like

(04:42):
as many women as as I could,and actually told them I was
dating them at the same time.
Like, I wasn't I was just like,I'm gonna be solo polyamorous,
and you can get in line.
And I was just honestly on thisinsane ego trip until um I
really fell in love uh with thiswoman and wanted to start
committing to her, and I startedto notice my same fights, same

(05:07):
patterns that were going on withmy ex-wife were showing up
here.
And I paused and was like,Well, I'm not gonna mess it up
again.
I'm gonna try and figure thisout, but maybe it has something
to do with me.
And my ex-wife had called me anarcissist after we'd already
divorced in kind of an angryfit, and I was like, What's what
is a narcissist?
I didn't even know what theword was, and I looked it up and

(05:28):
I saw that I'd only checkedlike four of the six boxes or
something, and was like, orwhatever I found in that
article, and like, I'm not Imean, I got traits, but I'm not
a narcissist, and I justconvinced myself I wasn't, and
just kind of put it away forlike a year, which this is
really common with narcissiststoo, and until I kind of hit a
similar breaking point um withmy uh partner at the time, Kira,

(05:52):
and in kind of one fell swoop,just kind of woke up to the fact
that no, I'm an actualnarcissist, and at that point it
was like a spiral, and this iswhat they call narcissistic
collapse, it's where theillusion of you being this
amazing person breaks, and youcan kind of see through to all

(06:12):
the shitty stuff you've beendoing, and and how like the
reality of things, and it's uhyeah, it's this scary wake up
and and I kind of spiraled for along time, and I looked on the
internet, and what all I foundwas just a lot of like anger
towards narcissists, which Ithink is very valid and
justified because narcissistshurt so many people, and I but I

(06:36):
couldn't find anything that waslike helpful or about healing.
Um, so I started callingtherapists, and every single one
that I called said, Don't getfreaked out about the internet,
like there's a kind of an angrystory going on there, but a lot
of it's not true, and you canheal, narcissists can heal.
And I just remember thinking,that's so interesting that

(06:57):
there's such a disconnect.
Um, and I just started on myown healing journey, and at some
point just felt that that wasthe change I wanted to make was
to like talk about the the truththat wasn't being discussed on
the internet, and so I juststarted sharing my story.
Um, and I was I had seen enoughhealing in my in myself to say

(07:17):
I think healing's possible, butit's this also kind of a
question mark, but I'm gonnastart documenting my journey.
So I documented the journey atthe same time was just talking
about it, and it was reallyhealing for me to like see my
pattern and then go make a videoabout that pattern, you know.
And like, why did Narcissistlie?
I just lied, and here's why Icaught myself doing and just
kind of like broke it down.

(07:38):
Um, and yeah, that was kind ofthe wake up and and started
beginning the the healingprocess.
I did it for about a year and ahalf, and I would say, you
know, fast forwarding to now, Ihonestly just feel like a
different person.
Um, I don't think I qualify forNPD today, um, but I know that
structurally, the way my mind iskind of organized, it I would

(08:01):
still um go that direction intimes of crisis or or things
like that.
It's almost like an alcoholicwho hasn't had a drink in 30
years, but they still callthemselves an alcoholic because
they know that if they do havethat drink, they'll go down that
route.
And you know, while it is alittle bit different, I still
notice that you know, if I'mreally hurt, you know, by

(08:23):
friends or family or something,I only notice my mind trying to
say how great I am and and youknow try to you know compensate
in that way.
Um but once you're aware of it,it can't really take over as
much because you're kind ofwatching your mind, you know,
run those patterns.
So um yeah, that's kind of mywake up story and fast forward

(08:44):
in a in a nutshell.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I have so many questions.
Um so many.

Uh what g can you give us an example of the
of the patterns you noticed thatyour different exes could like
what you said that they calledyou narcissists and they were
getting through the same fights?
Like what what was it coming upin your romantic relationships
that signaled to someone else,like, oh, you might be a
narcissist My second partnerKira never called me a

(09:14):
narcissist.

Um and I'm now we Kira and I are now married, so
um yay.
Uh and she never called menarcissist, but she said, you
know, you really have this angerproblem, you have a really big
shame problem, and you're youhave a real empathy problem,
which like you you don't listento me, you get defensive
instead.
Um, and so it's like I wasworking on those for six months

(09:36):
before I ever even woke up tonarcissism to begin with, but
those are similar patterns thatI had seen uh with my ex-wife.

There, so I I I mean, we just I just
graduated my PhD, and I feellike even it's I'm happy to hear
that therapists were tellingyou, like, you know, it's not
true, narcissists can be healed.
I feel like I did not receivethat message actually, it was
still pretty negative.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah.

Um, and one of the reasons is because in
order to be receptive to thatkind of diagnosis and all that
it entails, requires a kind ofability to look inward and
accept a bit of an egodestruction.

Yeah.

In the name of like being better for
others, that kind of seems tocontradict the diagnosis in the
first place.
So yeah, I'm wondering like howyou were able to be receptive
to that, and then I like want tostick on you at first and then
talk about your clients later,but but it I'm also so curious
about how you experience thatreceptivity with your clients or

(10:39):
help them get to that place.

Yeah.
Well, for me, it's just likeyou know, I kind of hit that
rock bottom and was was lookingat seeing the pattern show up
again was just so such a slap inthe face, honestly.
And um, and I I you know Iblame so much on my ex, like she
did all these things, and thento see it, and this and Kira is

(11:03):
honestly one of those kindesthumans I've ever met.
And to see my pattern playingout and my mind saying she's the
worst, I'm like, wait a minute,she's the literally the kindest
person ever, you know, likethis doesn't really make sense.

Can you give us an example of that where your
mind was like where she didsomething you're like, oh, I was
convinced after my divorce, Iwas convinced every woman was is
the most manipulative thing inthe world.

They don't really care, they're just trying to
manipulate you, and you know,and so Kira would do something
kind, and I would think, what'sher angle?
Like, what's she trying to do?
You know, or it really anytimemy shame got touched, instead of
thinking, oh, I messed up orI'm a problem, I'd go, She's
doing this to me, or she's only,you know, whatever.
So a lot of it was aroundthinking people were

(11:49):
manipulative.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's interesting.

Oof.
Um I totally hear what you'resaying with the negative view of
narcissists.
I mean, I'm dabbling into thesocial media world now, and it
is just crazy to see the onenote that's like, here's how to
tell if you know someone's anarcissist and you should cut
them out and probably neverspeak to them again and blah,

(12:14):
blah, blah, right?
Like, let's pick out the badguy.
And yet, the things that youjust said of anger and shame and
wanting to, you know, nottrusting someone else's
intentions, even just likethinking, oh, I'm great when I
get hurt, those all sound likepretty normal things.
And we also know that there's alot of narcissism in our

(12:36):
culture.
So, how do you deal with like alot of these traits are normal?

Sure.

And there's so much hatred for them now.

Yeah, absolutely.
How do I deal with that?

Yeah, how do you think about that?
Like seeing the internet beinglike, this is the equivalent of
an evil person, and that likewhen you're saying like anger,
ooh, a lot of people strugglewith anger these days.

Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I I think the internet'svery justified in um the anger
that is pointed towardsnarcissists.
Like I've had narcissists evenin my life.
Like every narcissist actuallyunderstands narcissistic abuse
once they wake up to what thatis.
Most of them just called ittheir childhood.
You know, like they just calledthat they just thought that was
just normal, you know, ways ofof relating.

(13:23):
Um but you know, I I feelthat's so justified, like to be
completely constantly gas-lit bysomebody, to like constantly be
questioning yourself, and tohave to if you've ever been with
a narcissist who is so firm ontheir thought process about
something, about why this ishappening, or you know,
whatever, and you just literallyhave to go, fine, I'll just

(13:46):
I'll just dissolve myself intoyour delusion that you have
here.
I will just deny myself and dowhatever you want, because I'm
tired of fighting, you know, andwhen someone does that, you
know, they might they'll do itjust to get through so they're
not fighting forever.
Because a narcissist will willnot let it go.
Because if they if they bend onthat thing, what it means about

(14:06):
them is is too destructive tothe psyche.
So they will not, right?
They're just like, uh-uh.
And so the other person isalways denying themselves or or
self-abandoning, and it'spainful, it sucks, you know.
The handful of times that I'vehad to do it with friends and
things, it's like, gosh, I hatethis.
And so to imagine someoneliving in that constantly, it's

(14:28):
like they're so justified inthat anger.
I just don't think that angeris really serving them in so you
know, long term, I'd love tosee a switch in that.
But getting back to yourquestion, like, what do I think
about that?
I think that uh if you actuallylook at Google Trends and you
look at the word narcissist, inthe last five years, it's done

(14:48):
this, it's it's actually reallyuh blew up.
And I think that we're all justkind of waking up to this
pattern, you know, and we'reseeing it in humans and and
we're just noticing.
I think it's always been there.
But and just like anything thatbecomes new on the scene,
everyone we freak out andvillainize it at first when we
don't fully understand it.
You know, think about likehomosexuals in the 1950s, or

(15:11):
think about like alcoholism inthe early days, thought these
people were possessed by demonsand there was nothing to do
about them.
Like the insane ways that analcoholic acts are not too
different from a narcissist.
But today we can look at it andsay they're sick.
This comes from, you know,history of neglect and abuse in
in their families, and likebecause we can see also the

(15:32):
patterns, like a fullerunderstanding of it, we can have
more compassion for it.
And I think that that's allwe're lacking right now is is
the full understanding of thiscondition.

So going back to receptivity, there you
were kind of saying, like, I wasdating this wonderful woman,
she was so incredibly kind, andI was noticing these same
patterns emerge.
Was it just that the logic wasjust staring you in the face to
such a degree that you had toconfront it?
Or was it fear of losing her?
Or like what do you think gotin that allowed you?

(16:07):
Because you were justdescribing so so um vividly
patterns that I've livedthrough, right?
Where I've felt crazy and I'mlike, why can't we just let go
of this argument?
You know, like why can't youshift your thinking in any
little way?
And now it's now it's not evenabout agree to disagree, now
it's I have to agree with you,right?

(16:27):
The those lengths, like goingto those lengths to keep up a
construction, really illustratehow crucial it is to not look
inward and not experience shame,but you were able to do it.

So I'm just yeah.
Well, I think a lot of peopledo it.
I mean, I'm I'm not the onlyone, I think I'm just the only
one who's talking about it onthe internet.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah.

You go into Reddit, there's there's 50,000
some odd, you know, narcissistsin in Reddit that are all
self-aware.
You know, I've met withhundreds on my side as well.
Like, this does happen.
It's not completely impossible,it's just like who's gonna talk
about that, you know, toanyone.
Um but so for me, it was like Ialready knew I had shame

(17:10):
problem, an empathy problem, andan anger problem.
So I already like knew thatthis was the thing.
And so when I was circling backon the narcissism question in
that kind of moment, um I waslike, I just looked at it
different.
I was like, yes, yes, I dothis, I do this, I do I do all
those things.
Okay, you know, let me look atthis.
And I think that that happens alot.

(17:30):
I've got um there's thisnarcissism, there's something
called the narcissism spectrumscale, and I can't remember
which university created it oruh set of researchers, but it's
a really great view ofnarcissism on a scale, and um I
send people to that all the timeis they go find out where where
you sit on the spectrum, and alot of narcissists wake up that
way and they look, they take thequiz and go, I guess I'm I

(17:54):
guess this is me.
Like help me understand why.
And um I think that a a hard,hardcore narcissist, so even in
the in the scale itself, thenine and ten, like the high
highest level narcissists,cannot be diagnosed using that
scale because their narcissismwill not even let them take the
survey correctly, like it itwill block them from you know

(18:17):
convince themselves that theyare none of those things, you
know.
But um, but there's still a lotof people who are not that high
on the spectrum, but still likelike a seven and an eight will
struggle in their relationshipsforever, like they will they
will go through like fivemarriages, and even people on
the internet who are you knowbeing told or being called
narcissists, they might not be anine or ten, but they could be

(18:38):
a seven and eight and still beincredibly difficult to be with,
you know.
So there's a lot of people Ithink who are able to look at
it.
And I think if if today wechange the the the concept of
narcissism, if it wasn't thislike evil, horrible human, I
think a lot more people wouldwake up to it, which is a big
part of my mission, is to changethat viewpoint because then

(19:00):
more people can wake up, thenless people are getting abused,
less harm is happening, right?
So um if we as a society gottogether and said, let's look at
this a little bit differently,like we could remove a lot of
pain and suffering that's goingon in the world.

I mean, it is it is talked about as if it's
synonymous with being a badperson.
So if you are supposed toaccept that label, it's kind of
like, oh, I'm an irredeemablemonster.

Yeah, my condition literally doesn't
allow me to to to accept that,you know.
It's so such a catch-22, we'restuck in.

My God, I I have because we we are so we we
specialize in personality soresand we love talking about it.
And even we we put somethingout on on um social media that
was just like we had aconversation about can
narcissists actually love theirchildren, and it we said, like,
yeah, I just gonna look and feeldifferently.
And the amount of hate commentsI got, they were like, How dare

(19:54):
you say this?
Like you were putting people indanger.
I was like, what a one onenote.
So I I appreciate changing theconversation, but I'm curious as
you're you told the storystarting the the um being an
entrepreneur.
Yeah can you bring us back umbefore that?
Like how did you how did thesetraits show up in your life?

(20:17):
Like you're you know, you'retalking about how it might have
been um influenced by earlyexperiences and just like
there's a lot of narcissists inin on tech and for good reason.
Um it's a good it's a goodoutlet for it, it's a good like
place for it.
Can you talk about like thebefore times before you were
like, uh-oh, this is a problem?

Sure.
Well, let's let's let's back upa second and say, you know,
what causes narcissism?
So 90% of the time researchshows that it's from uh neglect
and abuse.
And so at a young age, thischild, you know, uh inherits
this viewpoint that theythemselves are not okay the way
that they are, that something'ssomething's wrong with them.

(20:59):
And they come to believe thatif they can be the mask version
of themselves, that they can belovable, they can be safe, they
can be all these things.
And so tech is really a magnetfor narcissists for people who
in their mask, the version ofthem that could be lovable is a
is a high performing,successful, wealthy person.

(21:21):
Um that mask is that will drawpeople in because tech is
something that you literallyanyone who's crazy enough to go
start a business and go getmoney from investors can do it.
You know?
And so it's like it it's just amagnet, I think, for for
people.
And I think that there'scertain industries that

(21:43):
definitely attract you know morenarcissists because of the
amount of power uh and wealththat that exists in those those
industries.
So um, you know, one well, no,that's a little bit off topic,
but so why was I drawn to it?
Well, because I I thought thatthat's that was what I needed to
be essentially.
That like the hyper successful,like I was like student body

(22:06):
president in school, I was likeplayed sports, I did all the
things that got the attentionthat I needed.
And um I was always hungry formore.
It's another thing reallycommon on entrepreneurs.
They can go make a hundredmillion dollars and then a year
later they're back startinganother business because they're
like, I I guess I need 300million to be happy.

(22:26):
Like they get back on thecarousel because the truth is
nothing can fill that void,nothing can fill that hole of
feeling like you're not enough.
And so um, yeah, I was I wasalways drawn to things that made
me look good on paper.
So I did sales in college, likea door-to-door sales, and I was
really good at it.
I just like was it tickled thispart of my brain of like making

(22:51):
money and and performing andbeing better than other people
in the office, and um I was alsodrawn to this, so then I was
again drawn to building abusiness because you know, same
reasons.
So yeah.

Were you did you come from parents who
really expected highachievement?

Yeah.
Yeah, they rewarded it.
It was like if I was good atchurch, if I was good at uh
performance, uh like my mom hadlike a singing group, so I like
did a lot of singing as a kidand through high school.
Um, and if um I did well withmoney, like those are like I got
a lot of attention, you know,for doing those things.

Did it ever cause problems earlier?
I mean, you would did the angershow up before and the shame
show up before, or was it justlike uh yeah, you were killing
it, so keep going.

It was good.
Honestly, like no, like I if ifI got touched on certain
subjects, yes, like I wouldspark and be angry if you really
touched my shame.
But I think my ex-wife knew howto kind of avoid that and just
make sure that never really gotpricked.
But for the most part, it waslike a slow death.
Uh like she just slowly waslike not being seen.
Because the truth is, like,narcissists are sitting there, I

(23:59):
was like focused on my mybusiness and and the thing that
would make me great.
And I would do like lovingacts, but they were they were
like a show.
It was like something I had to,but that's what I thought it
was.
That's what I thought love was.
It's like you go do this likefancy thing and you make sure
that they see you do it, and um,that's love.
But you know, when I was at thegas station, I never got her

(24:21):
favorite candy.
I never I didn't remember whather favorite candy was.
You know, when we were uh whenI was out doing something, I
never thought, does she want meto pick up something for her
while I'm gone?
I was literally just stuck inme world, and I thought it was
ADHD, and that's what we wouldjust always fight about was my
ADHD.
And and I'd say, I'm sorry, I'mI'm just ADHD.
What do you want me to do?
Like, I can't change this.

(24:41):
And um so I think she just felthonestly really unloved and
unseen.

Um did you have a sense of like you you
talk about having my shametouched, like if somebody
touched my shame, did you have asense of what that was?
Like a particular insecurity,or was it more this amorphous
sense of just if I'm criticized,then the kind of inner sphere
that sort of defective me willbe seen.

(25:11):
And so it was just anycriticism, any kind of rejection
would hit it.

No, it was so I didn't know about if that it was
my shame that was gettingpricked.
I just would get angry and I'dbe like, I don't know, I don't
know what happened there.
Or I my brain would come upwith some excuse, like, no, it's
because you did this, orbecause you know, I I honestly
was just so blind to it.
It wasn't until I started myhealing journey that I read I
started to like label my shame.
I read Brene Brown and waslike, oh, I created the list of

(25:38):
like what is what am I actuallyashamed of?
And um then starting to see thepattern of like, oh, those are
the moments that trigger me.
That's that's crazy.
I was actually someone whowould make fun of myself all the
time.
Like I would, I was like inbusiness, I'd say, um, I eat I
eat criticism for breakfast isliterally what I told every
employee.
I was like, criticize me, like,tell me what I need.

(25:58):
But if so, you I could getcriticized up and down, left and
right, as long as you didn'thit uh making me feel sh shame
because of being lazy, for beingstupid, like because of my
ADHD, um, for being weak.
Um there's like those handfulof things.
If you hit those, I would youknow, prick up, but almost never

(26:20):
at work, only in the home.
Yeah, or in friendships, youknow.

Yeah.
How do you experience orexplain the empathy deficit?
Is it that there because itseems like it's come back online
for you.
Um so because I I think a lotof questions around
neuroscience, for instance, areright, is this like a
developmental or like aphysiological empathy deficit?

(26:47):
Or it maybe is it somethingthat's buried?
Um, because in order to haveempathy, then you would have to
see other people's perspectivesand then understand that you're
not perfect.
So I'm wondering how you howyou experience it or explain it.

Yeah.
Yeah, the way I see it inmyself and in my clients is that
it's not that narcissists don'thave empathy, it's that we have
really strong shields againstempathy, against letting else
letting in someone else's pain.
Um, on one side, we're veryself-absorbed because it's like
we got the message at a youngage that no one's gonna take
care of us.
We had to take care ofourselves.

(27:21):
And so that's the part ofnarcissist staring into the
mirror, always focused onhimself.
And so it actually takes alevel of safety to put away the
mirror to look at someone elseand say, What do you need?
How can I help you today?
Right.
Um, so I think that's oneaspect.
Um, the safety, the the feelinglike able and capable.
And then the other is honestly,like, I think at a young age,

(27:44):
most narcissists put up thoseguards and just like never never
let them down, never letsomebody in all the way, or
never like made it a point tolook at someone's pain.
Because if that's how you livedyour whole life, your whole
family did that.
Like you show up at home andyou had a hard day, and everyone
says, your parents go, quitbeing so loud, like you're

(28:06):
interrupting me, and then yoursiblings go, You're such a baby,
you know.
Like, you didn't learn to openup the soft and squishy parts to
be seen, and you just thought,I'm no one doesn't that we don't
do that, you know.
I don't do that, people don'tdo that for me, I don't do that
for others.
And so something I really workon with narcissist clients is
the there's the quote from uhRumi, which is the um you have

(28:31):
to keep breaking your heartuntil it opens, and we really
actually have like a focus ontrying to have that
heartbreaking moment where I tryto have them visualize or have
conversations with their partnerwhere they can feel their
partner's pain.
Like I literally we do ameditation, they open their
heart, like we do this long sortof like you're safe, you can do

(28:51):
this, and then we have theirpartner talk about something
that has nothing to do withthem, won't incur shame, won't
make them feel bad, justsomething that's hurting in
them.
And they for the first timewill go, ow, ow, that hurts.
Like and that is like a a firstkind of experience for most
narcissists to be able to feelsomeone else's pain.
And um yeah, they have to keeplike they keep breaking it open.

(29:17):
And I've had people call me andbe like, like clients, like,
ow, this hurts so bad.
Like every I'm I can't believethis is like what a lived
experience could be like toactually let people's pain in
all the time.
And um it's really beautiful towatch people change because as
the empathy opens up, then theyare able to um show up for the

(29:39):
partner.
So if I felt so, for example, Ifelt bad when I hurt my my ex
wife for not getting the SourPatch kids at the gas station
for.
If I actually for the firsttime went, ow, that hurt, it
wires my brain to go.
I don't want her to feelbecause I felt her pain and I
don't want her to feel it again.
Just like if I put my hand on astove, wires my brain to say,

(30:00):
don't touch stoves anymore.
And I only do it once and itnever hurts again.
So similarly, once you startopening your heart to feeling
the pain that you caused or justtheir pain in general, you
start wanting them to not feelpain.
You start going, ah, what can Ido to help you?
What can I, you know, how can Ibe a better partner?
And it's really amazing towatch these narcissist go from,
I've never thought of how Icould help my wife or my husband

(30:21):
and have them go, I realizedhow hard this is for them.
And I just started helping themand I started doing it.
And like watching them buildempathy and build connection
with their partner in that wayis truly like a magical thing
that I get a witness and helppeople through.
And even in myself was reallymagical.
Like I remember like waking upand thinking, oh Kira, she she

(30:43):
was feeling sick last night.
I wonder if she's okay.
Let me like sneak out of bedand go do this and take care of
this so she can sleep in andafterwards it was like I've
never had that thought cross mymind before.
I've never sat and been likewhat can I do for her?
Just wake up in the morning andthink me, me, me, me, me, me,
me, you know, what do I need?
And um yeah it truly is a achange in our mind and our body

(31:08):
to that I think every narcissistcan do.
It's not impossible.
It's just we didn't know how todo it, you know?

Speaker 2 (31:17):
That's so interesting.

I love that I love hearing that empathy can
be learned and and and grown andit's there's a block.
I think some people are like ohno no empathy they don't even
care.
It's like there's somethingabout the empathy that might be
threatening.
Yeah.
I'm wondering too like I I havethe urge to be like oh that
sounds normal but if if ifyou're how do you when you start

(31:40):
to you know see new clients orhear people who say do I have
narcissism like what would bethe way that you recognize signs
of narcissism versus all theother feelings and struggles
that you mentioned, which islike feeling angry when you get
criticized, um feeling like youneed to achieve um like thinking

(32:04):
that you're the best, right?
Like how do you know thatthey're they're not just like
something else?
I think what I'm asking I thinkI think what I'm asking is like
I lately especially becausemen's mental health isn't great.
The more I learn about it themore it looks depression looks
like anger and shame and theself-focus right when you're
upset.
So how can you tell whensomeone is like oh they they

(32:27):
have narcissistic disorderversus like they're struggling
with shame like the rest ofhuman beings one of these days.

Totally honestly I don't know that I can tell
like sometimes it's like I don'tknow there's like a pattern
recognition that I've started totell but honestly I just say go
take the go take the narcissismspectrum scale and tell me what
your score was and then we'lltalk.
You know if you don't scorehigh on that I don't know what
you got but you know it probablynot good for me to talk to you.
So yeah but I mean what Inotice is like this there are

(32:59):
certain it there's phases toolike an early stages of a
narcissist waking up a lot oftimes like am I a narcissist?
I don't think I'm a narcissistlike I actually don't like they
really struggle taking on thatword and um they want to they
want to say how everythingthey're doing is is totally
normal.
And I honestly trust theirpartner a lot a lot of times
it's like well if the partnerdoesn't feel safe if they never

(33:21):
feel hurt if they always feelthat you're defensive if you're
acting angry and and doing allthese things and it's like man
like that that's worth you knowtaking a look at but they really
struggle with it in the earlydays to to own that that that
title but yeah I would love tohear about your process um I

(33:42):
went into my program initiallywanting to treat narcissism and
there wasn't exactly anytraining on it.

So um this is a little bit of of me um
getting a workshop from you.

Sure sure yeah we can talk about it what what are
like initial sessions like howdoes it work yeah I think that
if I had to sum up what anarcissist has to go through in
order to heal um it's like intwo phases.
So phase one is releasingrelieving the shame and pain

(34:19):
that is kind of causing all thedysfunction to begin with.
Like um like imagine thatnarcissism is like if I injure
my arm and swelling pops up.
The swelling is the narcissismthat's just protecting the
overall wound.
And so the first part is tolearn to love themselves and to
learn to to try and get at thewound a little bit.

(34:40):
Some of it some of them have toprocess like trauma.
They have to like move throughthat stuff.
Some of them have to um justcome to realize that the mask is
keeping them sick and actuallyaccepting the true aspects of
themselves is what starts torelieve shame because they they

(35:01):
just are start to ownthemselves.
Like I'm okay being sensitiveand needing a rest and all these
things right and so um that's Ithink phase one.
And then phase two is learninghow to love other people.
So the second half of the 13week program that I work that I
work with people is learningdevotional love, which is which
is love that has no expectationin return that's not performed

(35:24):
that's not transactional.
And so um you know we starthalfway through saying let's
focus on trying to love and thenwe spend the rest of it
removing the barriers to lovewhich is another roomy quote
that I love which is you don'thave to learn love you just have
to learn what's blocking youfrom love.
And so we work on you knowtrust and humility and
vulnerability and in thesethings that are actually

(35:44):
blocking them from experiencingthat that connection.

So that's that's all of it in a in a
nutshell do you do that do youdo that um virtually or in
person or how how do you like towork?

Yeah so I have a a program that I put them
through it's 13 weeks and eachweek is like a really in-depth
focus on on something and it'dbe half and half like I was
telling you relieving the shameand you know that
self-acceptance and then solearning to love yourself and
then learning to love otherswould be kind of the the two
halves of of it.
And I actually have if theywork with me they have to do

(36:20):
like it's like a part-time jobI'm like you're gonna spend an
hour and an hour and a halfdoing homework every night a lot
of his journal entries andintrospection that they then pop
into chat GPT and it spits backout a really powerful
reflection for them.
And then they go deeper with anactivity where they actually go
do something with their partnerkind of like a cognitive
behavioral therapy we'reactually like doing a thing to

(36:41):
start to rewire uh the brain andself-acceptance and then love.

So what kinds of what kinds of
assignments might these be likewhat kind of activities?

One that's really cool that I love to do is uh is
authenticity.
So we we spend a week focusingon authenticity and the whole
week the journal entries areabout what parts of you did your
parents not accept?
What parts of you did you uhdid you love to do as a kid but
you don't do anymore?
What parts of you uh did youkind of have to put away because

(37:10):
parents or you know your yourfamily system didn't didn't
allow for that and they put thatthey put all these like big
journal I tell them you know putas much as you can in because
you'll get a really cool outputwhen you get out from ChatGBT
and I give them a prompt andthey put these massive journal
entries in it spits back out thelost self and all the masks

(37:30):
that they've been wearing tokeep the lost self hidden.
And it's really wild because Itell them that your authentic
self is a version of you you'venever actually met.
It's a version you put away along time ago and and they all
say this they're like that feelslike me but also like it feels
really far away or it feels likemaybe that itself is a mask.

(37:52):
Like they truly don't knowthemselves and they they have to
come back home to for me it wasmy sensitivity like even on
this call I've gotten emotionala few times um just thinking
about like my ex-wife or justyou know whatever and I was like
a deeply sensitive kid that Icompletely hid that because I
couldn't be weak.

(38:12):
I couldn't be those things andwhen I've kind of brought that
home it's really cleared up theshame of feeling like
something's wrong with meconstantly and constantly have
to wear masks.
And so they they get this bigspit out of the however many
things that have been lost andthen they start working on how
do I how do I reclaim this?
How do I start to you knowbring this back home to myself

(38:34):
which can be scary for them.

I mean there's a reason they put on the
mask to begin with so this justsounds like a program I want to
do I'm like I want to know likewhat parts of man should be it
is it is fun.

It's it I mean you're right Dr.
Kibby when you say that likethese are all very normal things
and that's what's interestingis like we can all relate to
wearing a bit of a mask orneeding to be something else.

It's just narcissist kind of had to do it
on a really intense level somuch so that they've like hid
the truth from themselves youknow so yeah you do you feel
like there is um I mean we we'vetalked about that they uh on
this podcast before that thereare different types of
narcissists there's likevulnerable and grandiose and

(39:16):
malignant or yeah uh just ingeneral when you think of
working with someone are theretypes of narcissism or stages
that they're in that you're likethis is not going to go well
there are like I guess I'm I'mI'm voicing the question that
people have like can narc arethere some narcissist that just

(39:36):
can't heal?

Yeah I would say the narcissist who can't heal
are the ones who don't ever cometo me so I'm I have a bias to
people who come people who aresaying they they want something
so there's probably a huge swathof people that I'm not privy to
seeing because they're they'renot they're not trying.
So I'm just gonna say I don'tknow on that.
But whether they're grandioseor covert is not a problem for

(40:00):
like there's they're they'rejust different.
They're two sides of the samecoin it's just one side of the
coin showing but they have theythey have the same holistic
issue kind of at hand.
And uh what was I gonna say thethe only people that I struggle
with are or who I see struggleare people who are not sure if

(40:21):
they're really a narcissist andthey're just doing it because
their wife or husband has kindof got them over there.
And I've seen peopleperformatively heal.
I've seen them like you know godown this route of and I'm and
I can now smell it.
I can now kind of see it and Ijust kind of filter for it
before they come in.

Um but yeah how do you how can you tell if
someone's gonna perform healinghow do you how do you tell?

Well it's like if they're only there because the
the partner told them to and ifif they don't do any of the
homework assignment and um ifthey're actually not asking
questions or trying to be betterthey're just telling you how
great they are or how how greatthey're doing at their healing,
you know, it's like um those areall pretty telltale signs.

I um I was just in Africa for five weeks
and it's interesting when Itravel because I think when I'm
home and I'm thinking abouttraveling, like it's this
amazing thing.
And then after I do it I'mgonna be an even more amazing
person.
I come from like a highachieving family also where I
just feel like I have to like bemore and more like awesome in
all these different ways.

(41:27):
And then I'm in the travel andI'm like this is stressful and
lonely and boring sometimes andhard and like I think part of
why I'm doing like most of whyI'm doing it is I want to see
things and everything but partof why I'm doing it is because I
feel like part like my meaningor purpose in life is like
experiencing as much as possibleand be like I don't know like

(41:49):
having more and more awesomeexperiences.

And then I I kind of had this moment in
Africa where I was like what ifI have to stop swimming like
what if I have to stop travelingand just sort of be alone and
you kind of mentioned purposewith narcissism before of this
sense of like you always have tolevel up you always have to um
get more and more money it'snever enough and I I guess I'm
wondering how you um help themregain a different kind of

(42:15):
purpose yeah what that lookslike for your clients for
context I both of us are arehave narcissistic traits but in
different domains like I'm theschool person and Jacqueline's
the the life person.

Yeah totally I think it comes down to finding
what that authentic self is andnourishing that.
Like narcissists are reallygood.
I think a lot of people arereally good at nourishing the
mask like doing the things thatwe think we need to do to get
love.
But like true nourishment ofyour true self feels it it's

(42:49):
fulfilling.
It's like when you eat a steakdinner and you're just like I'm
full.
You know there there's nodopamine scratching at something
else when you feel you know uhfulfilled and when we are eating
candy and seeking the the thatthat's the seeking the dopamine
hit of the the the what the maskwants you know what we think we

(43:10):
should be doing and that neverfulfills us.
Because it's like you know yougo to the zoo and you see a you
see a cheetah like just sodepressed or the polar bear like
same thing.
They're so sad.
And it's because they're notfulfilling their their genetic
expression.
They're not being what they'rehere to be you know and you you

(43:33):
you we do that to ourselves.
We put ourselves in a cage ofour own uh beliefs on who we
should be and then we wonder whywe're depressed all day you
know it's because we're notwe're not fulfilling the our
unique genetic expression in theworld right our our
authenticity our dharma as theHindus would say right so it's

(43:54):
like an addiction.
Yeah yeah where do you feellike you you're mentioning
sensitivity what are otherthings um that fulfill you now
versus before um finding yourauthentic self and and getting
that um real meal instead ofcandy yeah um one is just
creative expression so like mymy dad used to say never be a

(44:17):
designer never do a job that youwould do for fun that's just
you know creative work is likenot work basically and so I was
like got it sure I'm I started abusiness and and did all the
external you know growth thingsand it's been more recently that
I've just really tapped into mycreative side and so um just
like I love designing a greatvideo or creating uh like

(44:42):
designing my office to lookreally really cool and have like
lights and you know fun thingthings like that.
Like that's very verynourishing for me.
Yeah.
Just one example.

But is that same yeah um I wanted to just
briefly give some time to I knowyour wife is also she's also
now coaching right but she'sdoing it from the other side of
the the script of the empath Iwas wondering I mean I know
she's not here but if you justwanted to say something about
that because it's that's such aninteresting pairing of like you

(45:15):
helping to heal the narcissistand her helping to heal the
empath and like yeah yeah yeahyeah Kira is amazing like I
honestly like I couldn't havedone anything without her she's
the most intuitive intelligentshe's a uh RTT therapist so
hypnotherapy um and she's justso good but um yeah I mean she

(45:40):
started waking up to her owntoxic patterns her patterns of
self-abandoning right and thethe the truth that I think is
really hard for people toswallow is that it takes two
people to be in a in a toxicrelationship.

And yes the narcissist is the one who is the
bull who is like pushing thingsin a certain direction but it's
the the partner of thatnarcissist who stuck with that
person for years and called itlove.
You know I mean both people areat a certain amount of fault.
And both people are justoperating childhood patterns.

(46:14):
So it's like we're not going toblame either of them and say
either is worse than the other.
Well I mean narcissistdefinitely hurts a lot more I'm
sorry for that that statement.
But I think that they are bothparticipating in this and so
what Kira is she kind of woke upto her self-abandonment.
She woke up to the fact thatshe was she was basically saying
she was giving me the permitevery single day to go act this

(46:36):
way and do these things you knowand so when our healing really
started when she woke up and shestarted saying I'm not going to
self-abandon anymore and I'mnot gonna soothe his
insecurities and I'm not gonnadance around and walk on
eggshells around him.
And that forced it's likethrowing a a kid into water and
then they had to swim.
It was like that forced me intowhoa I actually am so

(46:58):
dysregulated all the time andwhen she's not dancing around or
trying to soothe or take careof that I actually got a lot
going on here.
And so we think it's just asimportant to heal the loved one
of a narcissist because thecurrent story of saying just
leave them and get out of thatnarcissistic relationship is
honestly not very helpful.

(47:19):
Um because they are drawn tonarcissistic people for a
reason.
And what happens is they willexit one narcissist a grandiose
and then go find themselves withthe opposite version of a same
narcissist as a covert.
Right and then just be withfive narcissist over there.
Jacqueline's laughing too hardbecause is there something
personal there?

Oh yeah I went straight from a grandiose
to a covert slash grandiose.

I think he kind of went back and forth um
exactly yeah yeah but I I fellfor him in part because at first
he seemed like he was theopposite to the first one but
then I found myself in the sameyeah yeah and so like our
message is like hey you couldleave but you might it might
take you know two years to healfrom that relationship and then
you'll have a whole bunch oftrauma from from the pain of

(48:04):
that and then you'll startdating someone else and you
won't recognize that they're anarcissist until two years
later.
So you can go five years andthen be in the exact same spot
or you can stay here and try toheal as long as you're in a safe
environment like it's safe likethey're not being abusive
physically abusive or anythinglike that.
Right.
And that's where we just kindof invite because that real that
relationship will force both ofyou to heal your patterns.

(48:25):
And if at least you stay in therelationship and focus on your
healing, you'll get to the endof it and if they don't heal
well great you exited and you'rehealed and you'll go find you
know a healthy dynamic somewherebut if you just keep exiting
and exiting exiting you'll belike a lot of the people that
were in our our free supportgroup where we saw like I'm on
my fifth narcissist I'm on mythird narcissist.
It's like yeah the statisticalchance of somebody you know

(48:48):
finding a a narcissist fivetimes is like one in 10,000.
Like that's not you know that'sthat's happening for a reason.

They're they're drawn to it, you know
well I definitely want to talkto Kira because it seems like
we're doing similar things.
I mean like I'm doing a lot ofwork with uh narcissistic abuse
and healing from that I have aquestion about that.
Um something that I strugglewith when talking to a loved one
of a narcissist is a lot of thesituation not all of them but
not all some of the situationsare abusive right like the

(49:17):
narcissist um like you know theanger can get violent or you
know really demeaning and youknow uh it's abusive situation a
lot of time with the domesticviolence um situations.
I have a really hard time sinceI'm trying to teach them skills
about how to like heal fromthat and you know like you know
heal from that yeah I have ahard time saying there's

(49:39):
something that you can you'veyou do to co-create this abusive
dynamic, right?
That feels like blaming.
Yeah and I think that's why theinternet loves to just say just
it's not your fault at all justleave.
It's really hard to say thereare things you could do to help
your situation because that alsomeans you are like enabling it,

(49:59):
allowing it to happen.
What do you do with that?

That's so hard because you don't want it to you
don't want it to say that wellbecause you enabled it you can't
have any pain right like thetruth is they've been talking
about intense amounts of painbeing with the narcissist.
And so um yeah that's a reallyhard one to thread I think
Kira's able to do it really wellbecause she was that person.

(50:23):
So for her to say I wasself-abandoning this she's just
saying she this is my story.
You know so people can seethemselves in her and it's a lot
easier for them to go yeah I'mdoing that okay you know so when
she works with loved ones ofnarcissists she's just really
helping them like take backtheir power you know and you can
do it in an empowering way Ithink too and that's that's the
message that she really tries toto embody.

(50:45):
It's wonderful.

Can you just speak real quick we're
gonna let you go soon but um howlike how did she take up for
her how would she approach youwhen she had decided that it was
time to stop self-abandoningbecause I could see you know and
like in my situation I wouldtry to speak up for myself and
then I would get bulldozed umand I would just I I would just
be as you said so much of thetime she's just like let's stop

(51:10):
fighting and of course meallowing myself to get bulldozed
and still not leave wasinviting it to happen again.
But I'm wondering if you couldkind of give an example of like
a better way to go about it.

Yeah how she did it.
Yeah you know like one thingshe did when we were when we
were calm and not in a fight shewould say you know what I
really what I need is that Ineed you to listen with your
heart and to not be defensivewhen I'm trying to say something
that's that's hurting me.
And this is like stereotypicalhard thing you know dynamic with
the narcissist.
And I was like you're right Ishould be able to listen then

(51:44):
I'll do that you know and she'slike okay well here's what I'm
gonna do.
If you're ever being defensiveI'm gonna stop the conversation
and I'm not gonna keep goinguntil you're ready to open your
heart and listen.
And I was like sure boo that'llbe easy and like turns out that
was like the hardest thing inthe world she'd be like you're
being defensive and I'm like nono no I'm not like bite my

(52:04):
tongue and be like you knowsometimes I'd I'd throw a fit
and she just she just held itand was like no I'm I'm you know
I'm gonna go over here and thatis extremely painful for a
loved one of a narcissist to dobecause you are you are risking
disconnection with that person.
You're right like you'rerisking that fear of abandonment
comes up and they go so forthem to do that that's really

(52:25):
hard but they have to go learnhow to nourish themselves how to
go and like cool he's doing athing I'm gonna go over here and
nourish myself.
I'm gonna go do what takesmakes me feel content go talk to
my girlfriends I'm gonna gopaint I'm gonna do you know
whatever it is that I need sothat my cup is now full.
So when it's time to re-engageI'm coming from a full place I'm

(52:45):
coming from like I'm taken careof and I can like navigate
this.
So that was one she was reallyhard there's quite a few that
she was just like not going toengage but it's a boundary is
something you place not tocontrol another person but to um
control like keep your energyinside not leaking out right so
that's you know having beingreally good at boundaries and

(53:08):
doing it as a means to keep theenergy in and keep you kind of
sustained and and thriving umyou know is is the way awesome
can be any less you're lucky Imean I'm just like you're lucky
to have found her it sounds likeshe's sounds like a wonderful
person.
Luck doesn't even begin todescribe it.
She really is amazing.

So um I hope you someday do a workshop
for therapists.

Yeah I really want to yeah I actually had two
narcissists who were therapistsand graduated from my program
and they're gonna start takingsome clients as well because
there's there's quite a there'sa there's a lot and so I'm I'd
love to do that or even justkind of give therapists a a
different viewpoint too and likesome tools that they could use.

(53:57):
So um yeah that's something I'dI'd love to do actually.
So well is there anything elseyou want to plug or or share
with audience like um yeah Imean the name of your program or
how find you this is probablydraw drawing people in who are
interested in narcissism becausethey think they have a client a
a partner who is a narcissist.
And the one I think importantmessage I I just really want to

(54:19):
share is that you know yourbiggest their biggest fear is to
shake up the relationship andto cause problems if they you
know speak up or you know starttaking back their their energy.
And the truth is a narcissistwill never wake up unless the
loved one does something.
I've never you know in the theyear and a half I've been doing

(54:43):
this hundreds of narcissistsI've talked to they always wake
up when their partner is fed upand when their partner is done
like done done done.
And my invitation is to say youknow instead of waiting a year
or five or ten or twenty orthirty and then finally pulling
out because the relationship hassucked you dry and you have
like no heart left in it youknow standing up for yourself

(55:07):
now and is what's going to kindof kick off the the the levels
of healing in both of you.
And so them standing up and Ithink that's something we really
try to teach them is like youknow tools and and ways to do it
because that is the mosthelpful thing you can do for if

(55:27):
you want to keep yourrelationship if you want to have
a loving thriving relationshipand keep your kids you know in
the family and not be divorcedand all that like it starts with
you.
And I know that's unfortunatelike it sucks to be married to a
narcissist to have someone witha person personality disorder
but it's like it's just thesituation you're in and um you
know my I the last thing I wantto do is inspire someone to stay

(55:52):
in a horrible relationship andnever change anything.
For them to say oh he'll wakeup one day he'll change one day
he won't unless um the loved onedoes something unless the
partner says I'm done.
I'm going to and we we saythere's all sorts of ways they
can withdraw their energy butit's like you don't just have to
jump to divorce or orseparation.
It's like hey I'm not gonna goon dates with you anymore

(56:14):
because you don't treat me wellyou yell you whatever I'm not
going to cook you meals anymore.
I'm not going to sleep in thesame bedroom as you anymore like
there's so many ways to startto say I'm not happy with how
things are and we need to changebecause a narcissist won't wake
up to it unless you dosomething like that.
We convince ourselveseverything's great, we're great
partners everything's fantastic.
And it's not until they sayyou're sleeping in the basement

(56:35):
that they kind of start to gowhoa what you're not happy you
know and so um yeah that's justI think so important and I just
hope I can inspire some peopleto do that because narcissists
need that to be woken up and ifanyone is gonna try and go down
this road of of healing insidethe relationship then you know

(56:57):
you you have to kind of kick offthings correctly.
So um if you're interested toabout that Kira's uh on my
Instagram you can find her she'srecovering empaths um and then
you can find me athealnarcissism.com if anyone has
narcissistic tendencies or umyou know is open to to changing

(57:18):
uh I've got a lot of awesomepeople in there who have changed
their lives and um we'reinspiring more people to do it.

So yeah amazing well this is so
interesting so thank you so muchfor coming on um I was really
glad you agreed to um and littlehelpers if you could feed our
narcissistic supplier and giveus a five star rating on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify um we won'tthrow at the interim.
So we'll see you next time byaccessing this podcast I

(57:49):
acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
The information opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on

(58:10):
or through this podcast areprovided for general
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment advice,diagnosis or treatment and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergencyyou should immediately call 911.

(58:33):
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
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such approval or endorsement

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