Interview with Madison Errichiello: Love is Blind, Loss, and Healing through Trauma

Episode Transcript
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends the podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Kibby here and we're soexcited to welcome Madison
Ricchiello from Love is Blind,on A Little Help for Our Friends
.
But first I wanted to tell youthat if you're feeling
overwhelmed by the mental healthor addiction problems of
someone you love, I could giveyou one-on-one support through
KulaMind.
KulaMind is our online coachingplatform and community that I
built to help you break toxicdynamics, set boundaries without

(00:29):
guilt and take care of the onesyou love without losing
yourself.
And even if you're just curiousand want to chat about it, you
could book a free call with meby going to the link in the show
notes or going to KulaMind.
com K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.
com and click get started.
Thank you and enjoy the show,hey guys we have a very special
guest today.

We have gone back to my reality TV roots
, although not the Bachelor thistime.
We have gone over to Love isBlind, our first ever Love is
Blind guest.
It is Madison Aracallo.
We are so excited to have youhere.
You were kind of a spokespersonfor mental health on the show.

(01:08):
We're really intrigued to haveyou after the conversations
about mental health andparticularly attachment style
that you had on the show.
So we're really curious to kindof talk to you about your
background and kind of whatyou've learned along the way.

Madison Errichiello (01:23):
Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.

My first question is I think I've seen
you make a joke about liketrauma dumping.
Like trauma dumping.
What do you feel?
Is that something that peoplepost show have made you feel bad
about?
Or like yes, okay.

Yeah, definitely.
I think it's really interestingbecause, you know, going on a
TV show intending to get married, you have to talk about things
that you know are in your past.
You have to talk about yourfamily.
You have to talk about thosethings before you get engaged.
At least I would think so.
And so for people like me whodo have kind of a difficult past

(02:05):
and do have a long history ofyou know different family
dynamics and and things likethat, um, it can come off as
trauma dumping, and especiallythe way that they edit it, um,
you know, it's very like traumaheavy, like they kind of made
that my story, although, like,when you do actually get to know
me, that's not how I handlethings, that's not who I am.

(02:26):
Like I don't wear this traumaas like a coat.
So, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople are like she trauma
dumped and then, you know, leftthe pod single, but it is what
it is.

I didn't know that.
That's what they said, oh yeah.

I mean there's lots of noise, there's
lots of things being said aboutit.
But at the end of the day, likethat's my story, you know, and
I think it's really important toshare serious relationship that
you have to form in two weeks,less Less, yeah, and it's like

(03:15):
what information about me mightbe relevant.

Well, maybe it's how I see the world and
how I show up in the world.
What has you know crafted thatand shaped that?
It seems pretty relevant, butyet there's this term I was
having a conversation with afollower about this where she's
just like I hate this term.
It's like it makes it seem likea bad thing to talk about your
traumas.
But like, why keep that asecret, right?
Like?
Or why just like give peoplelittle spoonfuls?

(03:38):
I mean, I can kind of see thedialectic of it of like first
date, you know, revealing yourentire life story, but on the
other hand, you don't have muchtime on that show yeah, I mean,
it's literally you have a week,a week's time to get to know
someone and then get engaged tothem.

So this isn't typical dating right, like
if I'm going on a first datewith someone in the real world,
you know I might jump into somelike oh, like I lost my brother
or things like that, but likeI'm not going into depth about
any of my family dynamics or youknow whatever, but like when
you have the intention to getmarried within a week's time,
you have to talk about thatstuff.

(04:18):
And I think what I found is thepeople who haven't necessarily
experienced trauma in that way,they are the ones who are
talking about it being traumadumping.
They just don't understand.
And then the people who haveexperienced that trauma are like
, oh my gosh, I see myself inyou.
Thank you so much.
Like you know, bringingawareness to this on a reality

(04:39):
television platform has beenreally helpful to a lot of
people as well.
So there's definitely twospectrums.

Well, it's kind of funny because the
bachelor literally demands it.
I mean, we're known for ourdates being like quote unquote,
trauma dump dates, so yeah, sothat's just so funny.

What?
What about that dating contextof love is blind brought up?
What kind of trauma like when Iimagine, like you know, dating
and getting in relationships andstarting to connect to people,
a lot of our you know our pastand our, like mental health
comes up and gets triggered andgets, you know, challenged or we

(05:18):
have to work through it.
What, what came up in thatsetting for you?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a point in
the show where I say hey, likeif I'm too much for you, let me
know.
Like if you want to find someonewho's experienced less in life
or who's gone through less inlife, let me know.
And I think that was kind of ahard place for me to exist,

(05:44):
because I have experienced thatin past relationships of just
feeling like I'm too much orfeeling like my past is too much
, or you know, and I've done alot of work to kind of heal
those childhood wounds and startmoving forward and being more
secure in my relationships, andI think that's why I can be so
open about it.
But in the case of, like Alex,instead of him seeing, oh, she's

(06:05):
being really open, she's beingreally vulnerable and she's
sharing this information with mebecause she's worked through
this, clearly it's oh well, thatscares me, like that really
terrifies me, and so I thinkthat was kind of my biggest
hurdle of, you know, feelinglike I was too much, and then

(06:26):
when I was met with thatuncertainty, it pushed me to be
like, well, no, like I promiseI'm worth it.
I promise, like don't leave,like I promise I'll show you.
So I think that that was reallyhard to watch back, for sure.

Yeah, I noticed that dynamic.
Yeah, I noticed that dynamicand it I mean I didn't find you
hard to watch, but it I didnotice that dance that you were
in of, kind of like wait, I knowI have to like.
I have to reverse a little bitand try to like, comfort you and
I'm not terrifying, I'm notlike somebody that you have to

(07:03):
be afraid to be with.
You can't handle that.
You know that was a little bitupsetting, yeah it was.
Would you mind telling us alittle bit about your upbringing
?

Yeah, I mean it's.
It's interesting because Ithink people who you know watch
the show, who you know watch theshow.
It's funny how their view onlife shapes the way that they
interpret things right.
So, um, a lot of people werelike how can you say that your
parents were drug addicts butthey were also christians?

(07:37):
Like that doesn't make sense.
Or you know, like just thingslike that, which two things can
exist at once?

um, but on social media, Madison, I'm sorry
.

No, I know Nuance, nowhere to be found.
But I kind of, you know,portion my life out in like
three different sectors, right?
So I was born in Indiana but mymom quickly moved back to
Wisconsin to be with her familyand that's where she met my
stepdad when I was two.
So I grew up with my mom and mystepdad, who were drug addicts,

(08:10):
and you know, when you're a kidyou don't know those types of
things, you think that that'sjust everyone's life.
So it's not until later thatyou start to be like oh, that
was messed up, that's not normal, that's not normal.

(08:30):
Um, and yeah.
So then my dad got custody ofme and he lived in Indiana.
Um, so he got custody of mewhen I was nine, which tells you
how bad things were, becausehow often does a dad get custody
in a different state?
Um, where the mom doesn't havenecessarily like visitation
rights.
I still visited her, but it wasnot necessary legally.
And so, yeah, moving from thatdrug addict kind of like free

(08:54):
reign, like I would wake up inthe morning, get myself to
school, like walk myself toschool, like in elementary
school, just veryself-sufficient, took care of my
brother, and then moving into ahousehold with my dad when I
was nine and he was married tomy stepmom and they were very
devout Christians, veryconservative.

(09:15):
Like I had to ask to eat things, I had to ask to go play with
my friends, I had to ask to doall of these things and I had to
start following, followingthese new rules, and you know.
So they both had their own prosand cons I guess not
necessarily pros, but cons.

(09:36):
They both had their owndifferent hardships.
So I feel like I've lived liketwo different lives.
And then, you know, finally,like my adult life, is me in
Minnesota.

But yeah, I think that hopefully kind of
explains it a little bit.
With such different households,what tends to come up for you
in relationships?
My question is from when you'resaying too much, that can mean
so many different things.

What for you felt like oh, this, this
definitely came up inrelationships and it was hard
for people um, I mean, I thinkthe aspect of of too much is
just wanting too much orrequesting too much from people,
like requesting too muchloyalty or requesting too much
when it comes to trust or thingslike that.

(10:26):
And I think also, growing up,having to be very like acclimate
to different you knowenvironments so quickly made me
sort of this people pleaser asthis sort of like survival, um,
like protection technique, andso that turned me into this like
well, it's whatever you want,whatever you're comfortable with

(10:47):
, and and I'll just go with theflow.
But that made me like somiserable, um to the point where
it caused resentment.
You know, in my relationshipstoo, on my side, and um being
able to voice that has been achallenge I've.

I've figured it out along the way,
but yeah, I'm like my mind isgoing in a couple of different
directions.
Yeah, I kind of want to returnto your childhood in a second,
but I also I think that a bigtheme of today is going to be
talking about relationships andhow this has has influenced you.
Um, relationships and how thishas has influenced you.

(11:29):
Um, one thing we see whenpeople have a chaotic childhood
is that, especially if there areattachment wounds, is that they
will reenact the attachmentwound and try to win this time.
So they'll find somebody who issimilar to their father or
mother.
Right and then, but try to beatthe Like, if I can get you to
love me, then I'll win and I canheal this wound.
And that often is a losingproposition.

(11:51):
And so then you just lose andlose and lose and lose and it
gets worse and worse and worse.
The other thing that I feel likeI see from people who maybe
didn't feel like they hadunconditional love growing up is
a desire for unconditional lovein a romantic partner, and I
mean we all, like, want thatright, but in a way where

(12:12):
they're asking maybe too much oftheir partner, because they're
asking their partner to fulfillwhat they should have gotten
from their parents.
So you said like you're askingfor too much, and on one hand
it's like are you asking for toomuch because you're looking for
that relationship you never got, or are you asking for too much
for the people that you're withBecause those people are just

(12:33):
fundamentally not going to giveyou very much?
Do you have any idea if you'reeven like in either of those
buckets or some third option?
If that made any sense, if thatmade any sense.

Yeah, I think it's definitely both.
It's a both and situation.
You know, I've been inrelationships, yeah, I've been
in relationships where it's like, oh, me asking too much, is me
asking you to be faithful to meand stop cheating on me or stop,

(13:08):
you know, stop liking, stopliking, you know, bikini
pictures on Instagram orunfollow your ex, or just things
like that like asking too much.
But I think sometimes there arethose, um, unspoken requests or
times where I have, in the past, wished that someone could read
my mind because I I didn't knowhow to say it or I didn't know
how, like what, even tocommunicate.
I just wish that they wouldhave met me there without even

(13:29):
communicating that I needed that.
So I think it's definitely bothends of the spectrum right.
Like I wasn't perfect in any ofmy relationships and I think
it's definitely evident to melooking in the past that I have
required a lot from the peoplethat I've been in relationships
with, because I was looking forthat fulfillment that now I have

(13:52):
found in self-love.
Yay, yes, yeah, but yeah, I candefinitely see how I've done
that in the past.
Give an example of a ofsomething that you needed, that
you wished a partner or someoneyou know picked up on without

(14:18):
you saying it, or yeah, it'shard, I haven't dated in, I mean
been in a relationship in likethree years almost now, so it's
kind of hard to remember anyspecifics.
But I just think, like you know, I've been told in the past
like I just can't win with you,like if I do this then I can't
win, and if I do that then Ican't win.
That's fair, like that's valid.

(14:45):
Because I think with myself,like I couldn't feel like I
could win, like no matter whichway it went, like I wasn't good
at compromising, um, or you know, I just can get very strict
with, like what I need and andhow I need things to be.
Um, I mean, in the past I I wasum or what I expected from
people without communicating.

(15:06):
But yeah, I don't think I canthink of any like specific
examples.

Yeah, can you talk at all about how loss
has played into this?
You were talking, I mean, I wasreally struck by the amount of
loss you've experienced in yourlife.

Yeah, I mean, you know there's the loss
of like physical loss, likedeath.
I've lost my stepdad, um, to adrug overdose and I lost my
brother in a car crash verysuddenly.
So all of the loss ofexperience has been very sudden.
Like you know, you don't gettime to say your goodbyes or

(15:47):
make peace with it.
So I think that definitelyplays into my relationships as
sort of like an anxiety of youknow, there was, there was one
guy I was talking to for alittle bit and one of my rules
and friendships andrelationships, and I know it
doesn't make sense to everyone,but as long as you can respect

(16:08):
it, for me, like we're going tobe okay, is just let me know
when you get home.
Like I just need that, I needyou to let me know when you get
home safely and if I don't haveyour location, I just need to
know.
And he, this guy, just could notdo that.
And there was one night he waslike working security and it was
St Patrick's Day and you knowso there's a lot of drunk

(16:28):
drivers out there.
He was supposed to come over tomy apartment after I didn't
hear from him until 11 the nextmorning.
I was up all night have neverexperienced that kind of like,
sudden loss, can see that aslike controlling, right, like,
oh, like, why does it matter?
Why do I need to text you?

(16:49):
But with someone who hasexperienced that trauma, like
it's just a peace of mind, likeit's not at all meant to be
controlling, it's just like.
No, like I've experienced verysudden loss my life and I just
that's just what I need, like Ijust need to know that you're
safe.
Um, so I think that is sometimeshard for people to understand
because it's not often thatpeople have experienced things

(17:10):
like that.
But then you know it's the lossof like a parent who does have
drug addiction, and having tolike mourn what that person
should have been in your life,like my mother, like was not a
mother to me.
So it's losing out on havingsomeone that you can go to or

(17:31):
you can trust an adult person inyour life, and I think that you
know can tend to make itdifficult to trust people in
real time and inform like reallytrusting relationships with
friends or you know other familymembers or things like that.
But you know, at the end of theday, like that's my story and I

(17:57):
don't allow myself to be avictim to my circumstances.
So those are things that Igenuinely have like truly worked
on in life.
I'm just very open about it.

Well, we love that.
Oh sorry, kitty.

No, I'm just.
I'm just, you know, sad for you.
I mean it just.
It's that kind of trauma andthat kind of loss.
It exposes you to somethingthat people take for granted,
which is like you just say, ohyeah, that person's fine.
If I don't hear from them,they're probably still alive,
like you don't even know thatyou have that belief, or just
like, yeah, someone's going tolove me and people are

(18:34):
trustworthy, Like all thesethings that people take for
granted and don't realize howpainful it is when they don't
have that security.
So I mean, I just yeah, yeah,that was a.

That was mostly what I was.
No, it struck me too because,like so I work in um a va right
now.
So it's like heavily ptsd andwhat you see with trauma
survivors is and I'm not atrauma survivor, right.
So, like I can tell that I havethis protective coating, which
is is exactly as Kipi wasdescribing.
It's like, I assume, the bestcase scenario or just sort of

(19:09):
the medium case scenario, butI'm never really assuming the
worst case scenario and there'sthis sense this isn't a quote
for me, it's from a differentbook on trauma but that we're,
like, divinely protected.
So even if, like I don't, I'mnot religious, but I still
there's this sense of like.
Yeah, like I'm not religious,but I still there's this sense
of like.
Yeah, like I'm protected, likeeverything's going to be okay.
I'm not one of those people thatthese things happens to, and

(19:31):
then one of these things happensto you and you become that
person, and then there's a kindof reverberation of like, oh,
this isn't the world I wasliving in yesterday.
Did you ever feel like you hadthat kind of protective coating?
Or did I mean you were livingsuch an abnormal life from so
early on?
And just so you know also, thethree of us in this room have

(19:53):
someone in our family whoabdicated their mothering duties
to drug addiction or alcoholaddiction.
Not my mom, it was my sister,but Kimmy's mom and and your mom
, and so there's thisinteresting thread on the three
of us today well, we're allconnected.

Somehow we're never truly alone.
Yeah, yeah, you'll get it.

Yeah, you don't get anything for granted
yeah, I mean.

No, I don't think that I have ever truly
felt like I've had thatprotective coating, like I think
that protective coating is meand my own self, like it's me
going inwards.
It's me, you know, likelearning about disassociation
and how that's developed as achild was crazy to me, because

(20:38):
as a child I don't rememberthinking, oh, this is so bad.
But you know, looking back I'mlike, oh, I created these
patterns and these behaviors ofself-protection and you know,
like extreme sort ofindependence that kind of gets
on people's nerves in my life,like they want me to depend on

(21:00):
them.
And then I'm like, no, it'sgood, it's fine.
Um, because, yeah, that'sthat's the only thing I've known
.
Like the only person that hasever truly protected me is
myself.
Um, so I don't know what it'slike to have, you know, that
worldview of like, oh, thingswill work out.
It's like I don't know whatthat's like.

Yeah, this might be getting into the you
know, the treatment and recoverypart, but how did you survive
all of that?
Like, how did you you knowyou're talking about that.

(21:45):
Now you're able to, you know,reflect and have self-love, but
what was that?
Like in those early days oftrying to to cope with all that.
I mean self-reliance, but whatelse did you do?
What else um helped you getthrough that?

yeah, my therapist reminds me all the
time of like just, ever since Iwas a kid, I've just had this
weird resilience, like I just,you know, don't allow things to
truly, truly break me, and Ithink it's, you know, it is that
like self-reliance, like at theend of the day, I always know

(22:11):
that I'll have myself and that'sgood enough, um, and you know,
I'll always be okay, like nomatter what happens.
But yeah, I think it's just,I've always had just such a
resilient sort of like you know,mindset, I guess, and that's

(22:31):
really the only thing that I canattribute it to.

One of the things you talked about that
scared Alex was avoid it.
Yeah, you know my thoughts onthis because you listened to the
episode, but I was wondering ifyou could describe what you
meant by that, because I feellike as soon as you said that,
everybody else sort ofsuperimposed what they meant by
that on top of you.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think you made a really
great point, like if I wouldn'thave identified that way, I
wonder if people would havegiven me a little bit more grace
, because it was a lot of likeprojection in my comments, right
, it was, oh, I did it, thisperson who was avoided and they
ruined my life and like I did it, it's just like it's again.
It's like they're experiencingmy story from their point of

(23:21):
view, their worldview, right.
So I get it.
It's a lot, but I get it.
But I think what was reallymissed was he identified as an
anxious, right?
Do I think he's an anxious?
No, because he didn't act thatway.
If anything, I think hedisplayed more avoidant
behaviors than I did, and Ithink people just hear, they

(23:46):
hear it, and then they take itas truth, right.
But I think what I saw on the TVand what I experienced for
myself was me continuing to belike, hey, I'm going to show up
in this relationship securely.
I'm going to be vulnerable withyou.
That's not what an avoidantdoes Like.
If I'm scared, I'm not going toshare.
Be vulnerable with you, that'snot what an avoidant does Like.
If I'm scared, I'm not going toshare this information with you

(24:06):
.
I'm not going to give you mybear, I'm not going to.
You know, like I was continuingto show up for him and show up
for him, and it was like, nomatter what I did, he just
wanted to push away and hewanted to run, like, at the end
of the day, that was just goingto be, you know, it just wasn't
going to work.
So, yeah, I think it isinteresting how what I showed

(24:32):
versus what I said, what I saidwas taken more heavily than my
actual actions, if that makessense.

Mm-hmm, how do you actually feel about,
about your attachment style?

I mean it's funny, right, because you can
feel super healed.
And then the minute you startgetting into like a relationship
or a situation ship withsomeone, it's like, oh, now I'm
suddenly having to like facethese fears again with someone.
It's like, oh, now I'm suddenlyhaving to like face these fears
again.
Like even recently I was, youknow, talking to this girl and I

(25:11):
was like, oh, wow, like Ireally like her.
But then I was like, oh, butyou know this, and then this and
this, and it's like, okay, well, I don't have to think so,
future minded, I can let it bewhat it is and let it, you know,
kind of run its course as itmay.
But I do think, like what hashelped me so much in my avoidant

(25:33):
tendencies or my attachment,you know, style, is the idea
that I will always have myselfright.
So, no matter if I come to youand I'm really vulnerable about
how I feel and like if youreceive it, well, great.
If you don't, that's okay,because I was still vulnerable,
I was okay enough to tell youhow I feel.

(25:53):
And if you can't reciprocatethat energy, then like you're
probably not my person andthat's good.
That's like you know howrelationships are like if, if
you can't receive this, wellthen maybe we should.
This doesn't work out, but Ithink, just knowing that it's
not about feeling safe with thatperson, it's about feeling safe

(26:15):
with yourself and safe enoughthat, no matter if I'm
vulnerable, I'll always be okaybecause I have me Does that make
sense?

Yeah yeah, but that sounds really healthy.
That doesn't sound avoidant.
Avoidant attachment gets such abad rap Like I think that it's
like toxic and narcissistic, butit just.
I mean, I think Jacqueline andI have both talked about our
avoidant attachment styles, butmostly because we've.
You know, when you experiencerelational trauma or someone not

(26:47):
being available, it's scary tohave to then trust somebody
right, because you don't know.
so, yeah, you tend to be alittle bit more like um, I guess
it's all insecurity, anxious oror avoidant, but it's just like
where do you feel more safe inyourself, or trying to cling to
a person?
And, yes, I find that people doboth.

(27:07):
It's not like avoided meansthat they just they're fuck boys
or whatever.

Right, it's just I don't know I'm going on
a rant, but no, I mean, thatmakes sense.
I think it like I haveobviously done work, like you're
literally propped up on thebook attached right now.
Oh yeah, that book.

They also give a bad rap to avoid an
attachment.
They're like if you're avoidant, just stop being avoidant.

No, I literally was like this is kind
of unhelpful, but thank you,like it's very drawn to it.
It's very like for the anxious,I think no-transcript show is

(28:09):
like you're two different people.
Well, first of all it's editing, but also that's just humans
being humans.
Right, we all have differentrelationships with each other.
Um, but, yeah, I have.
I've, I've understood, likeI've been in the mind of an
anxious before.
I think you know, you know thatquote on TikTok, where it's
like and who set that system up.
That's how I feel, where it'slike.

(28:30):
I've been so like betrayedspecifically by men in the past
that it's almost gone from likeanxious to avoidant, like I've
over corrected to now I'm anavoidant and now I don't want
anything to do with you, andlike your energy is it different

(28:51):
with women um, I would say, yes, I tend to be more avoidant
with women.
Um, um, yeah, but I think that'sbecause it's it's a lot more
emotional, um, like you getdeeper emotionally um quicker

(29:13):
with men.
It's like they're okay, justlike being really surface level
for a really long time, andsometimes I can be okay existing
on surface level for a reallylong time, um, and so, yeah,
with women I think I do tend tobe a little bit more avoidant,
um, because with men it's justeasier, like I like I don't, I

(29:37):
don't, I'm not scared of hurtingthem.
But with women, you know, it'sjust so much more intense.
I remember I went on a datewith this this girl like I went
on maybe two dates with her andthen I hadn't.
I didn't text her back like forlike four days.
And by the time I texted herback she was like honestly F you

(29:59):
?
I don't know if we can cuss onhere, but she was like honestly
F you and I was like what F you?
I don't know if we can cuss onhere, but she was like honestly
F you and I was like what why?
She was like I didn't hear fromyou for four days.
So it's just things like thatwhere I'm like I tend to be more
avoidant because it's so muchmore intense.
And then you know, with men itcan be casual for a longer time.

Can I ask you what intensity brings up for
you what these emotionalconversations feel like for you
that makes you kind of want toback away?

I don't think it's necessarily the
emotional conversations.
I'm okay having intenseconversations.
I think it's the feelings thatcome with it, right, like it's
the feeling connected to someonewhen you share those emotions
with someone, those emotionswith someone.
That kind of makes me take astep back and I think in some
ways it is healthy, right, likeyou want to be safe about who

(30:48):
you're sharing information withor who you're connecting with
emotionally.
But yeah, I think it's more so,just like a scary thing to get
vulnerable with a new personthat you're romantically
interested in and that kind ofmakes me take a step back
sometimes what?

what did it?
What was that like?
In love is blind, like.
Imagine that there's someaspects of not seeing them that
could feel safer.
But like it looked like, atleast from editing that you were
sitting there, like it's like a.
I always thought about it aslike a confessional.
You're sitting there, reallytalking very deeply, quickly did
like.
Did things feel like safer orscarier there in that regard?

it felt safer because you know you don't
have that physical, like eyecontact.
Where should I?
Where should I look?
What should I do?
How do I look like?
I mean, you do in a little bit,a little bit, but just because
you're on camera, um, but youforget that the cameras are
there, and so I think it.
It kind of it's almost like youknow how people feel safer

(31:58):
being more hateful onlinebecause they're behind a screen.
It's almost that way where youjust you feel safer because it's
almost like that person isn'treal.
In a weird way.
You're like they're real butlike I can't see them.
So I feel okay enough to bemore vulnerable.
Weird experience.

I always find it fascinating when um we
talk about like, how, like my,um, my best friend is bi and
she'll talk about some sort ofsimilarly, how women can be like
a little like intense and orjust like more emotionally
connected and how that can kindof and it's just so funny when
we think about how men areusually the ones who handle

(32:45):
women in that place and how badmen can be at that.
It's kind of like, how did like,how did we get designed this
way where, like men, are theones that have to like women's
like emotional, like emotionaldepth?
Uh, but that was just an asideI don't know.

I stopped expecting anything from men a
long time ago.

Better place to be.

Honestly, I have a lot more peace in my
life.

I sleep peacefully these days.
I was earlier when you weretalking about going from a
highly unstructured environmentto a highly structured
environment.
One of the thoughts I have islike sometimes kids who grow up
without structure reallygravitate towards structure and
need it and love it.
But it also seems like for youit was overcorrected and now I
know you're an artist which isnot structured, do you?

(33:36):
What kind of role does art playfor you?

Yeah, I mean art has has been, and
especially with, you know, theinternet.
I don't think I was ready forpeople to be so like I need to
see this from you and I need tosee that from you.
And you talked about this, sonow you owe me that.
Um, like I decided before theshow came out that I didn't want
to use love is fine to promotemy art art because I had

(34:03):
recently kind of the past coupleof years have been really
difficult for me mentally Ifinally have gotten to a place
where I don't feel like I'm justsurviving.
For a long time I felt like Iwas just surviving and I think
because of that, that reallyimpacted my ability to feel
creative and it just felt likeeverything I created was just

(34:25):
not me, like I didn't identifywith it, and I was trying to
kind of get back to my roots ofbeing more playful with my art
and just putting things outwithout the intention of selling
it and just having fun with it.
And so that got picked up onthe internet and people were
like you're not an artist, likeyou won't show us your art.
So that's been reallyinteresting to to watch take

(34:51):
place.
But yeah, I think I like artbecause it doesn't force me to
be structured.
But I think there there's thatpart of me where it's like I do
need structure in my life,although I do resist it, like I
don't like feeling like I haveto do this at a certain time and
do that like routines.

(35:13):
I know I thrive in them, but Ialso really despise them at the
same time.
I just said a lot in one setting, but yeah, I hope that answers
your question.
Yeah, unstructured, yes, yeah,yeah, like I am like your type b
friend, like to the max, butit's like I need my space to be

(35:35):
clean, I need it to be like youknow whatever, but it's not
organized.
Like you go in my drawers andit's just like you know
everything has its place, butit's not organized.
Like you go in my drawers andit's just like you know
everything has its place, butit's all chaotic in its place,
if that makes sense, it's notchaos to you, it's orderly to
you exactly yes you mentioned acouple times people writing all

(36:00):
sorts of comments and I what?

what was your in terms of mental health?
What was your experience goinginto the show and then coming
out?
I just know from JacksonJacqueline's experience, which
you know.
She let her tell you, but it itcan be rough out there.
So how do you?
What was that like for you?

Yeah, I found an incredible therapist,
um, like last September orOctober, I don't remember
exactly um, but I just startedhaving these like insane
anxieties over well, what willpeople think?
And I don't even know what mystoryline is.

(36:43):
I know, for the bachelorbachelorette, your editing time
is like a lot shorter than loveis blind.
So we have a year to sit onthis and you know over that
course of the year, so muchhappens in between and you
forget like small details andstuff.
So, yeah, I found my therapistand was just like I really want

(37:06):
to make sure that I'm in a goodheadspace when this show comes
out, so that neither positivelike praise or hate comments
will shake me Like I don't wantto get so swept up in like the
positive part of things, becausethe internet is so fickle and
they can turn at you at anymoment um, that I put my

(37:27):
identity in the positive thingsand I don't want to put my
identity and and the negativethings, like I want to be very
secure in myself.
So my therapist and I did a lotof that work um, previous to
the show coming out, um and thenafterwards we have also done a
lot of work, but I felt like Iwas in a really good headspace.

(37:48):
So the first couple of daysshook me, like I was like I
don't know how to feel.
I'm getting so much on bothends, like I was a very
polarizing person, so it wasjust very loud, like you know,
on both ends of the spectrum andI think for the first two days
I felt really overwhelmed.

(38:08):
And then the third day I waslike I've decided I don't care
and I'm just gonna have fun withit, and you know.
So I just like reply to somehate comments being funny or
like whatever.
I would like lean into the jokeor I would joke about myself or
cause it's just really not thatserious.
So I do feel like I've handledit well.

(38:30):
I also got on Zoloft, which hasbeen incredibly helpful.
I was on Lexapro before, but Ididn't really think it helped.
So finding the right meds iskey.
I'm like this is what normalpeople feel like.

Crazy, well you just named is what normal
people feel like.
Crazy, Well, you just named ourtwo antidepressants.

So it's very exciting for us.

Jacqueline Trumbu (38:51):
no-transcript yeah, I mean I found it very
difficult coming off of the show, um and the.
I was like I had people hated meon reddit for whatever, like I
had a pretty good edit, um itwas just yeah people just hate
on reddit my mom's best piece ofadvice was like, can you just

(39:13):
find it fascinating like you'regetting such a unique view into
like human behavior, and it iskind of fascinating.
They have extremely selectivememory.
Um, they can, they can developan entire persona for you based
off of like, um, amisunderstanding or or literally
, a memory error.
That happens a lot.

Um, and then just an insistence on
hating and just willfully likemisinterpreting people is
amazing yeah, I mean, the beingmisunderstood was like such a
core wound for me and that waslike my biggest fear, and so
that's something I've had toface head-on with reality tv.

(39:53):
Um, it's just like, yeah, youjust have to let people
misunderstand you and you don'thave to correct everyone,
because, even if you do, theyprobably don't care.
Like some people truly justwant to misunderstand who you
are and some people truly justwant to hate, and there's no
reason to give energy to thatbecause they're probably really
miserable.

Did you I mean, even if you you're like
this projective test mirror forwhat people are feeling did you
get a sense that people wantedto read something in you?
I know we talked about theavoidant piece, but is there
anything that you could feellike people got the impression
of or wanted to see in you?
Or like what, what, whathappened to the audience when

(40:36):
you look at, like, how they'rereacting to you?

It's funny because I truly have stayed on
like a very positive side of theinternet and, like when the
show was coming out, I did notscroll on TikTok, or if I did
and I saw my face, positive ornegative, I would scroll past it
.
So a lot of the time I don'treally know exactly what people
are saying about me, like Idon't go on Reddit, I don't like

(41:00):
you know yeah, like control.
Well, it's like yeah, at first Iwas like the first day and then
I was like this is so unhealthyand so, yeah, yeah, I just kind
of created those boundarieswithin myself of like, okay, I
don't actually need to know whateveryone thinks of me, because

(41:23):
I know what I think of me, um,and I know what happened.
But I think I mean, there's,you know, a lot of different
narratives of me, like I'm a maneater or I'm whatever, which
that's not an insult, by the way, like, if anything, it's kind
of a compliment, like thank you.

(41:43):
You know, like men being likeI'm so scared of her and I'm
like you, as you should be, um,you know, but I think, at the
end of the day, I've been ableto see it as just projections of
their own experiences and howthey feel about themselves.
So none of it I've takenpersonally, and I think that's

(42:04):
why I can't really provide likea great example.
But you know, it slips throughthe cracks sometimes, like
sometimes I'll see this hatecomment or that hate comment or
whatever.
But I'm like, oh, that's so sadfor you, whatever.
But I'm like, oh, that's so sadfor you.

It's a very protective attitude.
I was definitely Googlingmyself endlessly, looking myself
up on Twitter.
It was just something sofascinating about seeing how
people saw me and I still findthat interesting.
Obviously there was an ego,massive ego portion to it as
well.
And then reality TV, kind ofthe aftermath, like I mean, mean

(42:40):
I wasn't necessarily thatfamous afterwards, but my
friends were, and that was backwhen the bachelor could get you
a million followers on oninstagram, um, and so I just it.
The after effects of the showkind of pull your values in
different directions.
Like are you going to be a starfucker, a social chaser, you
know?
Like are you going to disownfriends who have bad reputations
because they're at it sucked orbecause things came out about

(43:04):
them on social media?
So that's kind of all part ofit as well.
Do you feel like you've had tonavigate any of that stuff?

I mean it's funny because I just don't feel
different, like I don't feellike this has necessarily, like
yes, it's changed my life in thesense of, like you know, I'm
getting a bag now, like I gotsigned really quickly.
I think I was genuinely sosurprised at number one, the
amount of screen time that I got.

(43:34):
Number one, the amount ofscreen time that I got, hmm.
And number two, how quickly Iblew up, blew up, but it's like.
I thought things would feeldifferently and they don't.
Like I still feel very much thesame and I still feel very much
grounded in and myself like Idon't know it's.
It's cool when people come in.
They're like, oh my gosh, likeyou're, madison, love is blind.

(43:55):
Like that's always really fun,but it's more so like I don't
see that as me being thiscelebrity or or anything.
It's more so just like.
Oh, like I'm meeting my friends, like I'm meeting new friends.
Um, so, yeah, I think in mymind I really haven't felt that
change.
Um, but I I definitely have hadto be a little bit more careful

(44:18):
about, you know, like the typesof people that do want to be my
friends now, um, I haveexperienced that where I have to
question people's intentions,I'm like, oh, like, why, why are
you so like intense about beingmy friend right now?
But, yeah, other than that.

I don't think anything has genuinely really
changed for me.
This is a question I could askfor both of you, but on the flip
side of the negative part, isthere anything you've learned
about yourself for being in suchan intense dating?
You know public dating spheres.
In such an intense dating, youknow public dating spheres like
anything I imagine, just likelooking at yourself, even just
on a screen, and just you know,noticing things about you, or

(45:06):
just learning from theexperience of being there.
Is there anything that you'relike, oh huh, I know that about
me now.

I would rather hear her talk.

I think, yeah, the only part that was
really interesting for me towatch back.
I mean, like you've been saying, jacqueline, like it's
interesting to see how peopleperceive you and you know, there
were moments where I was reallygood at deflecting on TV and I
didn't realize that that's whatI was doing so, like when I come
back in and I'm like, oh,breakups taste good and people
are like you were so happy tosend him home.

(45:50):
First of all, I didn't know hewas going home.
I had no clue, like he stillhad a connection with Meg, I
wasn't sending anyone anywhere.
Um, secondly, I was really hurt, but I didn't want to come into
a room full of people actinghurt because myself, like how I
grew up, I can't show thatemotion.
I have to be brave, I have to,you know, put on a brave face

(46:12):
and and I don't want to showpeople that I'm hurt because I I
don't want them to think that Iallowed someone to like take my
power from me or whatever.
And so, yeah, I come in and I'mlike, oh, breakup stays good,
but I was deeply, deeply hurt.
And so I think that was thefirst thing.
I was like, oh, I'm really goodat deflecting thing.

(46:39):
And then I think the second onewas watching me chase after
Alex, when it was very clearthat he was like putting up all
these like guardrails for me,and I was like, why did I think
I deserved that?
Like, why did I?
Why was that the one thing thatyou know, I was so sure on when
I had so much affirmationcoming from other connections,
why was it the one that I wasn'tgetting that from that I went

(47:01):
after, I think that was a veryeye-opening moment for me.

Do you have an answer to that question?

I mean, I think it's just rooted in the
trauma of like needing to proveto people that I am a worthy
person of you know, I'm worthyof their love and I'm worthy of
of their trust.
And yeah, I think that's beenkind of a pattern in my life

(47:32):
that all came to a head on thatshow, um.
So, yeah, it was definitely apattern that I've I've seen in
the past, um, and then got toexperience it real time from,
like, a different point of viewjack, what did you learn about
yourself?

I mean I from, just from, like watching
the filming back, eitherexperience or watching it back.
From the filming it back Ilearned I'm sort of an
aggressive kisser.

That was the first thing um I hate to see
myself kiss, you know like, ohmy gosh, I'm actually so glad I
didn't.

It's okay, because I know I'm a good kisser
, so I was watching about.
I was like this is interesting,but whatever, um, that's so
funny.
I think I actually came acrossas pretty.
I liked how I came across withAri.
I felt pretty cool, confident,like so I don't know.
But I mean I think most of whatI learned about myself was

(48:36):
afterwards, like I learned thatI am capable of like sticking to
my values and not disowningfriends and like not playing too
much into what I think fame waspulling me to do.
But I also learned that, likeI'm very susceptible to my ego
in other ways and like verysusceptible to envy.
To envy, um, I don't know.

(49:00):
I mean there's sorts of there'son another podcast that's about
us.
I can, I can probably come upwith more stuff, but I don't.
I want to keep talking too much.

I'm really curious, um to know, like what
was the internet like around thetime that your show came out,
because I feel like the internetnow has such a grasp on reality
TV and how people want toportray themselves Like was that
like?
A big influence for you or howpeople did portray themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I think a couple things.
So my my season aired in 2018.
And that was the height of,like, the woke movement.
So there was a lot of angryliberal energy and like I'm more
liberal, right.
So I'm not like this isn't megetting you know pro-trumpy or
anything, but okay, I wasworried.

(49:45):
No, it was just that it waslike me.
All everybody I knew wasgetting attacked by their own
yeah like there was apologiesdemanded left and right.
It was just a lot of like youhad to really really watch what
you said at all times.
And there was, I mean, it wasjust like it was just the snotty
attitude from a lot of people,um, at the same time, like part

(50:10):
of that was important and itreformed like how people
communicate with each other, andso there was like important
stuff too, but there was just alot of paranoia on the internet
at that time, um, and then, ofcourse, you did have the Trump
supporters, who were just doingthe same thing, but less um in a
way, less aversively, because Ididn't take them seriously at
all.
So it was like a highly, highlypolitical yeah highly political

(50:32):
environment.
Um, so there was that, but I did.
What happened with me is like Ihad no social media experience
before the show.
I used it, but very much aslike an average consumer.
I wasn't trying to be seen inany way and when I came off the
show, people were instantly likeyou have to brand yourself.

(50:53):
You have to make use of thisonce in a lifetime opportunity.
You have to post constantly,but you have to like really have
a vision.
And I was like I don't likewhat makes me special and I was
like PhD girl.
So I kind of tried to like leaninto that branding and
immediately they were like oh,you're not like, you can't.
You're using big words, you'refake, you're like trying to seem
smarter than the rest of us,like you're not even in a PhD

(51:13):
program yet.
It was just a lot of like teardown of anything I tried to do
and once that kind of idea gotinto people's heads, there was
just no coming back from it.
So I just like I, if anythinghad like an intellectual bent, I
would get destroyed.

God forbid a woman be educated.
Vent, I would get destroyed,god forbid a woman be, educated.

So that was , that was my experience.
But I also just wasn't veryeffective on the platform.
I mean I'm just not, it's justnot for me.
So I mean I'm sure a lot ofthis is my own fault.

So I mean.

I'm sure a lot of this is my own fault.

That's super interesting.
I mean, yeah, I definitely havegotten that same.
Like you have to start brandingyourself, you have to start you
know, which is fine.
I think that is something thatI can naturally just do, like I
have worked in social mediabefore, I have worked in
corporate, so like I understandkind of you know the content
pillars and I yeah, I get all ofthat.

(52:19):
But I think it's interestingthe way that reality TV has kind
of morphed into this Likeespecially I saw this with the
men on our season Like I don'twant to say anything that could
get me canceled, and usuallyit's just their beliefs, you
know, like what they trulybelieve would get them canceled.

(52:40):
Or like a lot of it was very twofaced of like well, I'm going
to say this to you, but I won'tsay this on camera, or you know,
whatever, and I think peopleare so terrified of being
canceled and being like hated onand no matter who you are,
you're gonna get hate frompeople like no one from our cast

(53:00):
came out of that unscathed, youknow, and so it's just like if
you're gonna get hate, then behated for something you actually
want to stand up for and typeof person you're gonna be like.
That's kind of my motto.

I mean there is something, though.
There is something about youthat people seem there's some
confidence about you oreffectiveness about you that
seems to rub people, certainpeople, the wrong way and it
kind of feels sort of similar tomy situation, but more from
like who you are, what yourvibes are, then like the
education part of just like.

(53:35):
I mean, I see it all the timelike women who are like
confident or have it going on.
They often get torn down and Idon't know if it's more by other
women or other men, but some ofthat seems to be operating on
you too.

Yeah, I, but you know this is happening
on a larger scale, but I do feellike I've experienced that just
throughout my life on personallevels.
I feel like I've been inrelationships with men who feel
like they have to humble mebecause, you know, they think
I'm trying to be better thanthem, because I have a better
argument, or I say things betterthan they do, or, um, or it's

(54:16):
women who, you know, think thatI'm trying to be better than
them just by existing.
Also, sorry, my dog's drinkingwater, and he's really loud.
He always does this when I'mlike in meetings or in
interviews.

Um, but yeah.

I've experienced that a lot of just
people feeling the need tohumble me and, um, I am able to
not take that personally onlybecause I'm like I see that that
comes from a deeply insecureplace in your life and there's
something in me that causes youto be insecure.
But that's not on me, that's onyou and I don't know like

(54:54):
what's that got to do with me?
I don't know.
I don't know like what's thatgot to do with me?
I?

don't know, I don't know.
I mean, on the one hand you'vetalked about like insecurity
within relationships and havingto grow up very alone and, um,
you know, worried that peoplewill leave, and on the other
hand, you have this reallyconfident persona that people
can object to Like.
Where do you think thatconfidence comes from?

I mean, I think it is just that thing of
I've had to be that way.
I've had to be really strong,I've had to stand up for myself,
like I wasn't always this way,you know, but I've had to learn
how to exist in the world as,like the only person who's going
to speak up for myself, or youknow, the only person who, at

(55:40):
the end of the day, is trulygoing to have my back, like when
I don't have parents who I canfall back on for support, or you
know whatever.
Like I just have to be confidentin my decisions.
Like I don't have a safety net.
I've had to be very sure ofmyself and very sure in the
decisions that I make, becauseall I have is me and I also just

(56:04):
think, like I'm a Leo, like Ijust I have this like fire about
me of like you're not going totell me what to do or I get to
decide who I am, like you're notgoing to tell me who you think
I am.
Um, so, not to make everythingabout astrology, but yeah, I do
think it's just that resilienceof I get to decide who I am you

(56:28):
like we could hear the the workthat you've done, the self-love
and the confidence?

I mean even to the point where you're not
giving into the curiosity ofreading everything on Reddit and
TikTok about you.
For other people who havestruggled with loss or trauma or
relational trauma, can you givea little insight on what was
like the most helpful in yourjourney, like when you say you

(56:54):
did a lot of work, like what?
What do you think of whenyou're like, oh, that that thing
really made a difference orsaved me or helped me yeah, I
think it's not.

You know, holding on so tightly to things,
like it's the idea of just likeletting things go and letting
things be, um I think in thepast that's really harmed me and
harmed my relationships of justlike trying to make sure that
like things stay where I can seethem and where I can control
them.
Or, you know, like not havinganything surprise me, um,

(57:30):
because being surprised wasalways a really terrible
experience for me.
Um, but I think that you know,just having like a looser grip
on relationships, or even likejobs or friends or whatever, um
has really saved me.
Like the hardship of this ishow it was supposed to be, or

(57:52):
doesn't mean you're not likeheartbroken or you're not sad,
but I think just like allowingyourself to feel the waves of
those of the grief or of thehappiness, or just like allowing
it to like pass through youwithout having to actually like
put a meaning to it, has beenreally really helpful.

Yeah, therapy mascot.
Spokesperson for acceptance.

Well, I mean, yeah, it's one of those
things where there's people whohave been able to float through
life They've never really had to, you know, face themselves.
But, especially being onreality tv, you are forced to
face yourself in ways that youprobably don't really want to.

Um, I don't know if we have kimmy.
You have any last questions?

no, I think this was great and any anything
that you feel like, any kind oftips for people who have gone
through you know what you haveand with trauma and loss, I know
that.
I like the, the advice to likenot take things as as you know,
not to hold on so tightly.

(59:12):
Anything else that you wouldwant to, any words of wisdom or
tips for people.

I mean honestly, just therapy has been
a really great resource for methroughout my life and I think
that's you know why I've beenable to get to this place.
Lots of self-reflection, lotsof self-awareness.
So yeah, therapy.
I highly recommend it.

Okay, fabulous, um, anything that you
want to promote of your own.
Um, where can people find you?

Um, I am on Instagram and Tik TOK.
So at madserrR-R, mads-er, I'monline.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:02):
Perfect.
Well, thank you so so much forcoming.
I'm really really glad that wegot to have this conversation.
I think you have so much wisdomto give to others from just
like a psychoeducational place,like everything you've said is
very in line with.
Like what we know works Right.
So I think you know you're agreat advocate for all of this

(01:00:23):
and it was so lovely meeting you.
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United States of Kennedy

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Interview with Madison Errichiello: Love is Blind, Loss, and Healing through Trauma

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}United States of Kennedy

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Interview with Madison Errichiello: Love is Blind, Loss, and Healing through Trauma

United States of Kennedy