April 23, 2025 • 70 mins
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What if we've been thinking about love all wrong? What if the idea that we must choose just one person to love deeply is simply a cultural construct rather than an inherent truth about human relationships? In this episode, we discuss with Paula Croxson, our friend and practicing polyamorist how we can challenge foundational assumptions about romantic love and connection. This discussion was inspired by reactions from our previous episodes on ethical non-monogamy as a lot of you Little Helpers were curious to hear more about how this actually works in real life. Paula shares her three-year journey into polyamory after spending most of her life in monogamous relationships, offering a thoughtful perspective on what it means to love multiple people simultaneously.
We explore how polyamory creates space for radical honesty and communication unlike anything our guest had experienced in monogamous relationships. These conversations about boundaries, needs, and expectations aren't just helpful for polyamorous arrangements – they're valuable tools for any relationship. The polyamorous community's emphasis on transparency creates opportunities to discuss topics that might remain unaddressed in traditional partnerships.
The discussion delves into complex emotional territory – examining jealousy not as something to eliminate but as information that helps identify unmet needs. We contrast this with compersion, the experience of finding joy in your partner's happiness with others. Our guest shares practical insights about navigating multiple partnerships, including scheduling challenges, communication practices, and managing new relationship energy while honoring established connections. Polyamory allows people to design relationships based on their authentic desires rather than societal expectations – creating connections that can be deeply meaningful without following conventional scripts.
This interesting conversation makes us consider what aspects of polyamorous communication and boundary-setting might benefit any type of relationship – monogamous or not.
Resources:
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends
the podcast for people withloved ones struggling with
mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people you love.
Cool of Mine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs or setting boundaries,even if you're just curious and
(00:28):
want to chat about it.
Book a free call with me bygoing to the link in the show
notes or going to coolamindcomK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get
started.
Thank you, and enjoy the showno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
So if you could so you listenedto our E&M episode and you're
here in part, to like fill insome gaps and kind of, like you
know, discuss this big, wideworld of polyamory.
Can you start by kind ofdefining polyamory, if you can,
and then kind of telling us what, why you decided to be
(01:30):
polyamorous?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Sure, yeah, I can try .
I think it's important to saythat I'm not an expert in this.
I'm just somebody who's beenliving this lifestyle for
actually not that long, um,about three, a little over three
years maybe, um, and I so, yeah, I think I I've learned a lot,
(01:56):
um, and I've educated myself alot during that time, but
there's definitely limits to myknowledge and my understanding.
So I'll start with thatdisclaimer um, and I think.
I think that I'm trying to thinkwhat a good definition of
polyamory I mean.
Literally, it means many loves,and I think that it has this
(02:19):
expansive definition, for me atleast, where non-monogamy can
mean that you have a mainrelationship and you seek other
people outside of it, but thatmaybe you have some kind of
limit to what thoserelationships with other people
outside your main relationshipcan look like.
So, for example, an openmarriage is ethical non-monogamy
(02:41):
, but it's not polyamory.
Why?
Because you prioritize thatrelationship and you might have
some rules, like you can't fallin love with other people and if
you find yourself going downthat road, you have to stop it,
or maybe you have some vetopower over the other person.
In my mind, polyamory is theidea that you can have many
(03:03):
romantic relationships or manydeep relationships, because
aromantic people can also bepolyamorous, so I don't want to
exclude anybody from thisdefinition, and that can look a
number of ways still, and thereare a lot of different shapes
(03:23):
that I think that we can getinto.
But for me it looks like havingmultiple partners who I engage
with in a way that is notnecessarily equal but is
equitable.
So what that means to me is thatand there are so many different
(03:44):
models of this that there mightbe people who have multiple
partners and they spend equalamounts of time with those
people, or maybe they all livetogether so that they can have
the privileges that come withcohabiting and, you know, living
with somebody all the time.
But equitable means that peopleget their needs met and that
(04:05):
you don't necessarily have togive the same amount of time or
energy.
You don't even have to do thesame things with every partner.
Each partnership is different,and the best way I can equate
this is to think about mypartnerships the way I think
about my friendships, which isthat I do different things with
different friends.
I have different levels ofemotional support that I receive
from them, that I give to them,I have different amounts of
(04:28):
time that I spend with differentfriends and different frequency
that I see them, and so in thesame way, I can have
partnerships where I see peoplewith all of those different
kinds of ways and frequencies aswell.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Cool.
Well, I was just going to askwhat brought you into polyamory.
But can we sorry?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
oh, that's it.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That's a good question yeah, you did ask that
already and I totally forgot toanswer it.
So, yeah, for me, um, it'ssomething that I was.
I mean, I wasn't aware of it atall for a long time I was, I
have been in long monogamousrelationships.
My longest monogamousrelationship was 13 years long
(05:14):
and during that time so I movedto New York toward the end of
that relationship relationship,the end being like we were nine
years in and I moved to New Yorkand then we still continued the
relationship long distance, andduring that time I met somebody
I made a friend who was poly,um, and that person was in an
(05:35):
open relationship with theirpartner who lived in a different
city for grad school and theyplanned to have an open
relationship.
So I didn't know it was poly atthe time.
They described it to me as anopen relationship and they
planned to close therelationship again when they
(05:55):
came back together after thegrad school experience was done.
And that was the first timethat I'd heard of people like
successfully doing that andopenly doing that and I thought
it was very cool and I did thinkfor a minute maybe I should do
that.
You know I'm in a long distancerelationship.
That's tough, but I felt likethat person wouldn't, that I was
(06:16):
in a relationship with, didn'tmaybe, wouldn't want to do that.
I felt hesitant to ask and tomaybe hurt that person in the
process, and so we remainedmonogamous.
And then I had another sort oflong relationship after that
(06:37):
that lasted a number of years.
He told me in some degree ofemotional distress, that he felt
like he was not cut out formonogamy, and it was like
several years in and I wasn'texpecting him to say that, but I
(06:59):
also found myself being veryopen to it.
For a number of reasons wedidn't do that, mostly because
he was already cheating on me agreat deal, I think turned out
he wasn't, and so, although hewasn't cut out for monogamy like
he didn't really raise it inthe correct way and like I can
laugh about it now, but at thetime it was very not funny.
(07:20):
Um, but again it was likeanother place where it like
arose in my awareness and Ifound myself thinking, oh, could
I, could I do that?
Um, in the right situation?
Um, and so, as it happened, thenext person that I met, you
know I really connected withafter that relationship, um,
(07:43):
told me that that that she waspoly, that she had multiple
partners, um, and I did findmyself open to that and this was
a very different situationwhere, you know, there was trust
built from the get-go and whereI did really trust that person,
um, and so I became curiousabout it and decided that I was
(08:03):
open to exploring it.
And I would say I didn't act onit for a long time, in the sense
that I was comfortable beingwith somebody who saw other
people and I didn't rush intoanything.
I learned some stuff, I readsome stuff, I followed some
(08:25):
people on social media, I talkedto people and I waited until I
met somebody organically who Iclicked with, who also was in
that lifestyle.
It took quite a long time and Ithink for me, that
(08:48):
intentionality of meeting theright person or people um felt
very natural and the right wayto do it, in the same way that I
would only be interested indating monogamously the right
person or people and not justsort of rushing into it.
So that that was my, myapproach and I was super
grateful to have my eyes opened.
I think initially I was reallydrawn to the amount of
(09:13):
transparency and thecommunication styles that I was
encountering, where people werereally, you know I was
encountering this ability totalk about things that maybe I
wouldn't have ever talked aboutin my monogamous relationships.
Like I told you, I was withsomebody for nine, ten years and
I was afraid to say, oh, youknow, this is hard, should we?
(09:36):
Should we do something aboutthis?
So I think it.
It caused me and allowed me to,like, take on my fears a little
bit, to try and communicatemore openly and more, um be more
open to my partner'scommunication, um.
It's a really difficult placeto be and it's like there's like
(10:00):
a lot of places that you cantrip up and mess up, but isn't
everywhere.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I'm almost thinking from a perspective of
someone who's been used totraditional relationships, the
traditional monogamousrelationships, and people who
have heard our last episodes gowell, what, when you open the
relationship, isn't that justnot a relationship?
Or doesn't that just mean,isn't that a fancy way to talk
(10:30):
about?
Just like dating around?
Right for people to benon-exclusive and dating around
they might have multipleromantic relationships with the
understanding that that's notthe only one they're having.
So tell me what to kind of like, speak to the people who have,
like no knowledge of it.
What, what is the benefit?
Or why?
Why put a new structure of polyamorous relationships versus
(10:54):
like cheating or oh you know,like you know, be dating around.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, and I like have a lot of empathy for those
people who are like what?
Because I have been one ofthose people as well.
Like, our society is so wiredfor monogamy and I, for one,
definitely thought that was theonly way for a long time, and I
thought it was the only way inmore of a way than most New
Yorkers do.
So we're all talking from fromNew York City right now.
(11:22):
I used to live in England.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And in England, start dating somebody, you start
dating one person.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
My cat is getting involved with this conversation
and I was like a little bitshocked to discover that in New
York people date multiple peopleuntil they're ready to have the
exclusivity conversation.
I guess I also didn't watchenough sitcoms when I lived in
England or I wouldn't know thatalready.
(11:54):
But like, and yeah, I wastalking to a British friend who
moved here relatively recentlyand she was like, yeah, isn't
everybody poly here?
Because everybody's datingmultiple people until they
decide that they're not.
But for me that's a little bitdifferent.
And I think it's differentbecause there's this assumption
at some point, when people startdating multiple people and then
(12:15):
they have the exclusivityconversation, that like there is
going to be an end goal ofbeing with one person.
Goal of being with one person,um, and that's a wonderful thing
.
But there is another way, whichis to have the end goal to have
either no end goal or to havethe end goal of having closeness
and and stable relationshipsthat are mutually supportive.
(12:39):
And I think for me, this hasrequired me to sit down and talk
to my partners about what is apartnership to you.
What do you want out of thispartnership, what do I want out
of this partnership?
But the assumption is not thatyou're going to end up with one
person at the end of the day.
And sometimes polyamorists andpeople in this community talk
(13:01):
about maybe not being on quitethe relationship escalator.
I don't know, have you guysheard that phrase before?
So the relationship escalatoris the idea that in a monogamous
relationship you have thesemilestones that you might want
to hit.
So you might start by datingand then you become exclusive
(13:22):
and then you meet the parentsand then you move in together
and then you marry and then youhave kids and so on and so forth
, and if you're poly, you can dothose things with one person,
or more than one person as well,except the marriage piece,
which, um is.
That's a whole different topicthat I don't know if I need or
(13:43):
want to go into more depth about.
Like, you can go through all ofthese steps, but it's not
assumed that you're going to,and so I think one of the
reasons I was drawn into thiskind of lifestyle is because I
never wanted all of those steps.
Even in my monogamousrelationships, I knew that I
didn't necessarily want to livewith that person I've actually
(14:05):
never lived with a romanticpartner, um and I didn't
necessarily want to get married.
And I knew I at some point Iknew for sure I didn't want to
have kids, and so it allows youto kind of operate in a
different shape.
Um, and I think the reason thatwe talk about the relationship
escalator is because namingsomething allows you to make
(14:29):
conscious decisions and choicesabout it instead of being
carried along by it, and thenyou know you can choose to be on
that or choose not to.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
We'll get a different expert for our next episode on
bigamy, but um for now I do likethis idea because when I think
about because I was definitelyone of those people who like
dated around until theexclusivity conversation I like
kind of made a point of itbecause it's like I'm not going
to give exclusivity to any manunless he really wants me and
(15:01):
makes that note.
Um, but it is kind of this,like almost it's not competition
, but like you're only going totake one man up that escalator
and so you kind of have thislike wide open, um sense of like
okay, like like I'm going todate around but like ultimately
I'm going to discard all of youand so, um, there, it doesn't.
(15:24):
I don't know how naturallythose relationships progress.
It would be such a differentexperience to just like if I
knew that somebody was going toI don't know how to say this
exactly If I knew that Iwouldn't just have to pick one
person to make it forever withand that I wasn't going to make
quick decisions like whoever Ichoose to be physical with, for
(15:47):
instance, or like develop anemotional relationship with
actually would maybe last forlike as long as a friendship,
then I think I would make prettydifferent decisions about who
to do that with and how fast totake that relationship and it
would also just be reallyinteresting to be like, yeah,
(16:07):
like I, you know I'm notnecessarily going to take you up
the escalator, but we're goingto like hang out in the
courtyard for as long as we wantand like jump on the escalator
if we want to, but notnecessarily.
And just yeah, have a naturalkind of I don't know thing going
with a person.
It's kind of a cool idea.
Yeah, kind of a cool idea.
(16:33):
Yeah, um, you became polyaround the same time that you, I
feel like, discovered your ownqueerness?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
do you see these things as related?
Uh, that's a great questionthat I ask myself all the time.
Yeah, so I think the truthabout my queerness is that I
probably already always knew onquite a deep level, um about it,
but I was so much in denial ofit that I was making out with
women, um, with the permissionof my partner at the time, but
(17:04):
wouldn't have said that we werepoly, and I wouldn't have said
that I was doing that because Iwas bi and that's a label that I
now use um, and so I think Iwas.
Yeah, I was really reallydeeply in denial about that for
a really long time, and so itsort of took for me, I think, to
(17:29):
meet myself, to meet the rightperson.
I got into my first relationshipwith a woman.
It felt very natural to me andI was kind of like oh yeah, I
guess I've been like this allalong.
Oh yeah, I guess I've been likethis all along, but at the same
(17:54):
time, I guess I just neverreckoned with it before.
So, yeah, one question I askmyself is is it really better
for me to be poly because I'm bi?
Right, because I'm attracted tomultiple genders.
So bi doesn't necessarily haveto mean two genders, like some
people might also use the wordpansexual I haven't used that
much about myself, but it couldalso apply to me I'm like really
attracted to the person ratherthan the gender that they have,
(18:20):
and I think that gives me like awide range and a lot of choice.
And I don't think I have much ofa physical type.
I definitely have a type in thesense of how I like to engage
with people on a sort of brainand emotional basis.
But yeah, I think it is reallynice, if you're bi, to be able
(18:42):
to have more than one partnerand be able to have partners of
more than one gender and to beable to exercise that.
But I also don't want to playinto any like.
I sometimes feel like I'mplaying into a stereotype by
doing this because I think thereis very yeah, it's very weird
to be bi.
You know, you kind of getdiscrimination on all sides,
(19:05):
like I think I think straightpeople just and and other queer
people think I'm promiscuous andthat I must, you know, just
have no discrimination about whoI am with and that like it's
somehow more dangerous for me tobe.
But I've had all sorts of, I'veheard all sorts of things about
(19:28):
myself.
That must be true because I'mbi.
Over the years this has alwaysperplexed me so much.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
These like this by you know, like these bi
stereotypes.
Um, why in the world would thatmean that you're more
promiscuous?
What's the other one?
Oh, the other one is that bipeople don't actually exist.
They're just gay and in denialor something.
I've heard that so many times,straight men saying yeah, and
then the other trope that, likeyou know, if you are like a man
(19:58):
and your girlfriend is bi, thenshe's going to cheat on you with
a woman, or like can't possiblybe happy with just you.
I hear that all the time aswell.
Um, it's just, it's a reallyincredible set of beliefs.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's bizarre because people don't go around saying oh
, your partner's straight,they're going to cheat on you
with another person of the samegender as you.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Right, you're still even, I'm straight, but there's
still four and a half billionother men that I could go for.
Like, adding another four and ahalf billion people on top of
that doesn't really mean thatI'm going to be more likely to
cheat.
That's already way too manypeople to handle.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
So yeah, yeah.
So, like I'm not more likely tocheat and in fact, you know I
did.
I did once cheat on a boyfriend, like a long, long, long, long
time ago, when I was muchyounger, and I would never do
that again time ago when I wasmuch younger, and I would never
(20:54):
do that again.
Like yeah, like I did not feelgood about myself for doing that
and, um, I think I think that,like yeah, so I don't want to.
I don't want to perpetuate anymyths that, like, you need to be
poly if you're bi because yousomehow need more partners or
you somehow are more promiscuous, or whatever.
Everybody's different.
Some people are morepromiscuous which is also
awesome, by the way, and there'snothing wrong with it um, but,
(21:17):
like, everybody can bepromiscuous.
Everybody cannot be, um, it alldepends on who you are really
so, but for me personally, it isreally wonderful for me to be
able to engage with partners ofmultiple genders and to be able
to have these different shapesof relationship be meaningful in
(21:39):
their own ways.
Describe myself as poly, I woulddescribe myself as a
relationship anarchist, in thatI think that, and I've always
felt this way that, like myromantic relationships, my
friendships, my relationshipswith family members, whoever,
(22:01):
none of them take precedenceautomatically because the kind
of, because of the kind ofrelationship that they are.
And so, you know, even back inthe day when I was monogamous, I
would have friends tell me howmuch they appreciated me still
being there for them and makingthem feel like a priority, even
when I was in a romanticrelationship.
And I have sadly lost a lot offriendships over the years with
(22:24):
people who got into romanticrelationships, especially
straight men, like I mourn a lotof my friendships with straight
men where for some reason Icouldn't be friends with them
after they got into a romanticrelationship, especially once
they got married.
And, like.
My personal belief system isthat I think that everybody
(22:45):
deserves to be a priority intheir own again, like in an
equitable way, in the way thatthey that they need.
And I think the limiting factorfor me then is not that I
believe one kind of relationshipis more important than the
other.
It's that it's my capacityreally.
(23:06):
But I will say there is onekind of relationship that I
think if I had kids I wouldprobably feel differently about
that relationship with my kids.
I.
But I don't, I'm not in thatposition.
So it's easy for me to sayeverybody's, you know, on some
kind of even plane for me.
I think if I had children, I Iwould feel differently probably.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So tell us what this looks like for you when you to
make it more you know, likesomething that people can
picture.
What does?
What are these negotiations orrules, or what does it look like
?
You know what?
What kinds of different needsdo you find in different kinds
of romantic partners, and how doyou go about negotiating that,
(23:49):
especially if people havedifferent expectations like what
does this look like on a dailybasis?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
yeah, I think there's like a couple of jokes about
poly people that we like spendmuch more time talking than we
do anything else.
That might be more fun thantalking, um, and that we like
have a massive scheduling issueall of the time and the google
calendar is our best friend, orsome form of calendar is our
(24:17):
best friend.
I guess I shouldn't plug google, but, um, uh, there's a little
bit of truth to that, I think.
So I think it requires I don'twant to say this is on a daily
basis, but certainly I just gotout of a relationship of a
number of years where we made apoint of talking about what,
(24:40):
what our wants and needs were ona semi-regular basis, and I
don't think I had ever reallydone that in a relationship
before we we actually carved outtime to say, okay, what does
this look like to you?
Like, what does it mean to youto have a partner?
What are you looking for inother partners?
(25:01):
What are your boundaries?
So we talk about boundaries alot in the relationships that I
have.
Um, so there are additionalconsiderations when you have
multiple partners in terms of,like, people's emotional safety
and people's physical and healthsafety, right?
(25:22):
So one question you might ask apartner who has other partners
is.
It might be something asprocedural as, like, you know,
if I go like, are you my, areyou my, emergency contact?
Um, you know, can I rely on youto do that, um, or do you not
have capacity for that becauseyou have other partnerships?
(25:43):
Um, you know, I have a partnerwho lives with a you know, who
has a what they would call anesting partnership with another
person, and those people are,have raised a child together and
have, um, you know, are oneanother's.
Like, primary implies some kindof hierarchy in this case, but
(26:05):
I think I'm accurate in usingthat phrase as far as that
relationship goes.
Um, so those, so those people,you know they may not have the
capacity to be my emergencycontact, like, maybe it's more
appropriate for me to haveanother partner do that, or have
a friend be that person for me.
Um, my family will live inanother country, which would
make it very difficult for themto be my emergency contacts.
(26:29):
Or, you know, you might want totalk about, like, how frequently
do we want to spend timetogether?
And really be explicit aboutthat, because it's not assumed
that I'll spend, you know, everysingle weekend with a partner.
Even I haven't really believedin having a primary partner, but
like an anchor partnership, apartner that I spend more time
(26:50):
with, that I'm more involvedwith, where I've met their
family members, my family knowabout them.
It's also can be useful ifyou're poly to have a person
that you can tell people about.
That's your partner, becauseyou don't always want to have
that whole conversation withevery single person you meet.
(27:11):
It's a lot, um.
So, yeah, there's all kinds ofthings that you might talk about
there, like frequency of thetime you spend together, but
also like what are youcomfortable with?
Like, who are you?
Who are you comfortable with meseeing?
Um, is there any line that youdraw?
What protection are we going touse sexually?
Um, how often are we going toget tested?
(27:34):
Um, all of these things are upfor negotiation in every
relationship kind, but I foundmyself talking about them more
frequently and checking in morefrequently, and maybe that's
just because I don't know ifit's like a rule of being poly.
Maybe it's just a result ofbeing more drawn to people who
(27:54):
are more communicative thesedays, um, but for me it
definitely looks like, okay,maybe every three months we're
gonna talk about how things aregoing and how we're feeling
about things, whether we do wantto shift, whether we do want to
get on the relationshipescalator anywhere.
But with my more, my, maybe myless involved partnerships it
(28:17):
might not look quite asstructured as that.
It might more look like justbeing able to sit down and have
a chat about that as and when.
But you don't necessarily needto schedule it.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
It's funny when I imagine being poly.
Part of me sees this like,instead of the escalator, it's
like wide open field where youjust get to like explore and
just you know, play and be you.
And then part of me sees like achore chart where it's just
like so many, like boundaries tokeep in mind and check-ins to
have and like deep, heavyconversations, and I'm like'm
like oh woof, like that feelsreally heavy and a part of it
(28:51):
feels really light.
Does that part ever exhaust youor is this?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
it sounds like it's one of the biggest draws yeah, I
think I think the communicationpiece is a big draw.
Um, yeah, it can be exhausting.
I think, like taking intoconsideration, like multiple
people's needs can be a lot, andI think one of the things that
(29:19):
has been the biggest strugglefor me is not so much sort of
scheduling and planning andhaving the conversations, but
just the things that come upthat like there is no model for.
So having somebody you knowdealing with something or
something surfacing for apartner that maybe, um, you
(29:43):
wouldn't normally have to dealwith in a monogamous
relationship like a partner, forexample, a partner disapproving
of somebody that you see, orfeeling like I'm saying, I'm
saying you, but I can onlyreally speak from, like personal
experience.
So like in my case, having apartner disapprove of, actively
(30:10):
of, of one of my other partners,or the way that I engage with
other partners.
Um, it's not really in theplaybook, it's not in any of the
books that I read or thepodcasts that I listen to, um,
but it is a human thing, right?
Jealousy, dealing with jealousyfrom a partner is a very human
(30:30):
thing.
Or feeling jealousy or feelinganxiety that your partner's
partner, right, what they wouldcall your metamor.
Um, so your partner would beyour paramour, right, the person
that you engage with, and yourmetamor would be your paramours.
Paramour, um, so, like thepartner of your partner, like,
how do they feel like I get alot of anxiety around.
(30:52):
Are they okay?
Are they having a good time inthis scenario?
Do they know about me?
What do they want to know aboutme?
I, I feel like I do a lot ofcaretaking in my life in general
, and so I'm drawn to caretakingthis scenario as well, for
better or worse.
So I'm like are they, you know,is everybody all right here?
(31:13):
Are they jealous?
Are they upset?
Um, I've had to deal with myown jealousy, of course.
Um, because that's a thing like, probably people are not
non-jealous, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I would love to hear how you have handled and evolved
with jealousy, and also howyou've, like developed
compersion, just because I thinkthat I'm good at not being
super jealous.
But I don't know that, I don'tknow that I have it in me to be
genuinely happy for my partner,at least, like with somebody
else.
So, yeah, so just as an aside,like I didn't want to interrupt,
(31:46):
but I also would love to hearabout.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, I think I was getting on a train of
consciousness of like a wholelist of things.
So we can stop here for aminute and then maybe land on
some more things.
Then maybe land on some more umthings.
So I think compersion, um forthose who haven't listened to
one of these episodes yet,compersion is the it's, it's
taking pleasure in yourpartner's pleasure or in
(32:08):
another's pleasure, um, it'skind of framed as being the
opposite of jealousy, um, inthat you feel real joy in the,
in the joy that somebody else isfeeling and, specifically in
this context, it's taking joy inyour partner feeling love,
(32:28):
connection, maybe having aphysical relationship with
somebody else, um, to the pointof like, maybe even being
present for that situation.
As in some poly relationships,there's all kinds of dynamics,
including a dynamic where you'reactually around for some of
that and you witness those twopeople interacting as a dyad and
(32:52):
you feel joy for them.
And I don't necessarily know hownatural of an emotion that is,
but I think I would say itprobably is different for
everybody yeah and so isjealousy um, and I do think I'm
a person who naturallyexperiences less jealousy um,
(33:15):
which in the past hasn't alwaysbeen great for me, to be honest,
like when I was being cheatedon.
I think the fact that I didn'tfeel a lot of jealousy meant
that I was missing a warningsign or I was overlooking
warning signs, because I washappy for that person to have a
lot of independence and be doingtheir own thing and I gave a
(33:36):
lot of space, and so that meansthat if somebody does want to do
something not okay with thatspace, they can.
And I have to say, when we didtalk in that one relationship I
mentioned, where the person saidthat they might want to be poly
, the one person I really wasnot up for being poly with was
(33:56):
the person that they werecheating on me with.
I felt no compulsion for thatperson and I was like, yeah,
this person does not mean me.
Well, they feel they, they meanharm to me.
Um, I sort of knew that and Iwas like I'm I'm open to being
poly with another individual orindividuals, but not this
(34:19):
particular person.
So I also think it's situationdependent a little bit.
So I think for me, yeah, Ihaven't had a lot of jealousy
and maybe hand in hand, when Idid start getting into poly
situations, I did feel a lot ofcompulsion before I knew what it
was called.
(34:44):
I did feel a lot of compulsionbefore I knew what it was called
, um, and I think for me it's alittle of just.
I do feel a lot of joy and otherpeople's joy and maybe that
just makes me very lucky to havethat like I don't know if I've
cultivated it, um, and thenthere's also the piece that I
have cultivated because it'simportant for me to engage in
this lifestyle and try it outand see if it's for me in the
(35:07):
long term and um, and then it'salso, I think, been really.
Oh wait, there was a third thingand I forgot what it was now,
oh, maybe it'll come back to meum, because it's not just about
trying it out, I think it's alsooh, I know what it was, it was
a communication piece.
(35:28):
So, because communication hasnow become so important to me
and transparency and honesty,like it's actually really nice
for me to know what the peoplein my life are up to and hear
their news and if that meanshearing some details about a
date that they went on and athing that they did together or
a place that they own togetherthat they go to or whatever it
(35:50):
is, or something a little bitmore, you know, salty.
Then that's like I havediscovered that I'm up for
hearing about that and that's aform of compersion'm up for
hearing about that and that's aform of compulsion as well, in
the sense that, like, it bringsme pleasure to be included in
the conversation and to knowwhat's going on and for me that
outweighs the feelings ofjealousy I might have because
(36:11):
they're doing that thing withoutme.
But I also think compulsioncomes with a partner or you know
in in each situation who takescare of your feelings.
Um, because I think a lot ofjealousy and upset and the
opposite, like lack ofcompulsion, for me has come when
(36:32):
I haven't felt enough or Ihaven't felt like something was
available.
Like jealousy is often anemotion.
I think that gives usinformation and the information
might be like oh, I feel likeI'm not enough for this person,
or I feel like this persondoesn't want to do this with me.
Or I feel, you know, like it'soften not really so much I don't
(36:55):
want this person to be aroundanother person.
It's often not really so much Idon't want this person to be
around another person.
It's more like, you know, evenin a monogamous relationship, I
might be like why does mypartner always want to go on
vacation with his guy friendsand not invite me?
And like that happened for mein a relationship right when
(37:16):
they did invite me, oh my, mygod, I did not want to be there
at all.
Like it wasn't good and I waslike completely cured of my
jealousy in that area because Iwas like, yeah, you go, I don't
want to be part of this.
You drink beer at 9 am in themorning.
I can't handle that.
Yeah, I said they're not twosides of the same coin, but
(37:39):
they're definitely related toeach other I'm wondering if the
jealousy piece would be like theway you're describing.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It makes sense, um, and I feel like a lot of people
would feel that, and when, eventhinking about, oh, I'm going to
explore a polyamorous or openrelationship, there is an
inherent understanding that,yeah, you are not enough.
Because what?
Even by your definition of poly, you know, relationships is
(38:07):
like I have different needs metby different relationships, and
that that makes sense.
On one level, I'm like, yeah,of course I have tons of
different needs that I satisfyoutside my marriage.
At the same time, though,wouldn't that be tough to deal
with if you're in, let's say,you have a couple of
relationships, and then one ofthem, one of your paramours, or
(38:30):
says oh yeah, I got anotherparamour because you're not
satisfying this need and it's,you know, like I could imagine
in like like a very, you know,like a imagine and like like a
very, you know, like a jealousside of me.
I'd be like well, if someone'sactually looking for other
partners and feel, feel needs,that's really gonna just tell me
that I wasn't enough in thatarea.
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
well, hopefully, you deal with it with a lot of
compassion in in any situationand, like that is something that
you know, you can say, yeah,I'm seeking somebody else
because you're not enough.
Or you could say, you know, hey, we've been married for like 20
years at this point and like weno longer have a sexual
(39:13):
relationship.
Um, like, how would you feelabout you?
Know, I value this about youand this about you and all of
these things?
You know you bring me so muchjoy and security.
I love doing these things withyou, but I also have a need.
But this is a very extremeexample, but it is one that you
hear about.
If you listen to you know DanSavage or somebody's you know,
(39:37):
advice, advice, column type ofshow, then you'll hear people
dealing with these situationsall the time.
What are you going to do?
Discard that person from yourlife, walk away just because you
have a need that they're notmeeting?
Or do you negotiate that?
And you say, look, it doesn'tmean anything about you if I go
and seek this somewhere else.
(39:58):
Look, it doesn't mean anythingabout you if I go and seek this
somewhere else.
You also hear about it in thesituation where somebody has a
kink that their partner isn'tinto and again, it doesn't
necessarily mean that thatpartner is not enough, it just
means that that partner is notinto that kink.
And, like you can't reallyoften control what you're into
and what you're not into in asituation, but, you know,
(40:22):
perhaps there's a world in whichthat person really needs to try
that out, really feels likethey would be fulfilled in
having that If they can have acompassionate conversation with
their partner and say, you know,especially in a poly situation
where it's assumed you're goingto do that anyway, especially in
a poly situation where it'sassumed you're going to do that
anyway, right, and say you knowthis, this is, um, you know,
(40:42):
this is something I really wantto try and I found somebody who
will go to these things with meand try this out with me.
Um, and there's also anotherway to frame it, which is the
way that I tend to frame it withmy partners, is that it's not
that not nobody's not enough,it's just that everybody's
different um, and I just want tobe able to be open to
connections as they come alongand able to make those
(41:07):
connections um, and you.
There does have to be a lot ofcare, so another thing that
might be good to talk about atthis point is the concept that,
like, the new is always theshinier, the more alluring the
better, and I think a lot ofthese emotions and concerns
(41:29):
don't just come up around notbeing enough potentially, but
also come up around well, whathappens when you meet somebody
new and you have all thosebutterflies and you're really,
really into them and you'rereally excited about them and
you have what is often callednew relationship energy or nre
(41:50):
there's lots of acronyms in thisworld for some reason, like new
relationship energy is exactlywhat you think it would be, is
the energy you have in a newrelationship, and it's something
that you sign away.
When you sign into a monogamousrelationship, you kind of give
that up right, you might get alittle bit of it if you're
someone who has a sort of mutualagreement or not with your
(42:12):
partner that you can flirt right, and flirtation is usually a
socially acceptable way ofexercising a little bit of new
relationship energy, typefeeling um.
But if you're poly, then asocially acceptable way is to
actually date somebody new andhave those butterflies, and I do
think if you're somebody whocares about your other partners,
(42:34):
you have to take a lot of careof them in that situation.
That's when a lot of emotionscan arise, because of course,
the new is always shinier andmore exciting and more fun and
more energetic.
And you know, you're learningall these things and you're
maybe even shaping yourself forthat person a little bit.
Right, it's hard not to shapeyourself for a new partner.
(42:56):
When you meet a new partner, belike oh yeah, I'm totally into
museums, I go to museums all thetime.
You know, let's do that.
Then, two years down the line,you're like yeah, I know, we
haven't been to a museum for ayear.
I'm not really a museum person.
I was into it because you wereinto it, you know.
So, like that's something againthat I think there just does
(43:18):
have to be a lot of care aboutit.
And in an ideal situation youshould be able to raise that
with somebody and say, hey, I'venoticed you're spending a lot
of time with so-and-so.
Um, I'm beginning to feel alittle bit left out, like maybe
we could plan some time.
You know, I'd like to see youtwice a week and you know, I'm
(43:42):
not asking you to see them less,I'm just asking you to make
time for me.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
That would be a responsible way to handle that I
think old relationship energyneeds a rebrand because it's you
know, it's so funny when youhave it's like like yes, there's
new relationship energy, butthen that person who has like an
anchor partner or nestingpartner or whatever, will
ultimately come home to thatperson.
(44:07):
I mean that you know like wehave become so threatened and I
would be this would be mynightmares like the NRE, like
you know, cropping up for mypartner, and I don't know that I
would feel compersion at all,but we feel so threatened by
that.
But it's like this sense thatour, like, longer term
relationships are notinteresting or exciting when in
(44:31):
reality, our longer termrelationships are the people
that we've stuck around longenough to build something with
and that should theoretically bethe more you know quote unquote
threatening.
So anyways, I don't know.
I feel like there should besome sort of rebrand there.
I liked in your notes that yousent over, though you said
should we be threatened by ourpartner falling in love with
(44:52):
somebody else, or is it possibleto be in love with multiple
people?
And I went on a show where itis proven season after season
that you can be in love with twopeople, but of course, on the
Bachelor you ultimately have todiscard one, because it is only
acceptable to have a singlepartner, and so it is better to
break the hearts of the otherpeople that you've fallen in
(45:14):
love with.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Bachelor is almost like socially sanctioned, would
you call it.
I mean, it wouldn't bepolyamory, it would be harem
yeah, it sort of is a harem vibe.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
Um, personally I don't love a harem vibe as a
concept for my own life, like Idon't like the idea that one,
that one person can have all thepartners and other partners
don't.
So you know, on the one handit'd be great to have a version
of the Bachelor where everyone'squeer and poly, but on the
other hand there'd be no dramaand everyone would be really
happy.
(45:52):
Um, and just talking for a whilethat's what I want for all of
us.
I want us to have no drama andbe really happy.
I mean also like, alas, beingqueer and poly does not spare
you from drama.
Drama, it's a human condition.
Yeah, the harem vibe, you know.
Equities speaking of equity,which is like clearly one of my
(46:13):
favorite words, that hopefullywe won't get banned for um, it's
like, um, it's it's like yeah,if you're in a relationship with
somebody else who gets to seeother people, you should also be
afforded the same um, and ifyou are in a relationship with
somebody who wants to vetosomebody that you're seeing, for
(46:35):
example, because they thinkthey're not good for you or they
don't like them or they thinkthat something that they do is
not okay, then you also shouldhave a power of veto over what
your partner's partners, andoften that doesn't happen right
in these kinds of relationships.
That wasn't what we weretalking about, though I got
(46:55):
distracted by it.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Well, I mean, one of the ways I do feel like
compersion can be cultivated orlower jealousy can be cultivated
is by changing your beliefsabout what these things mean,
and I love what you said aboutlike jealousy gives you
information.
I feel like people who getreally riled up with jealousy
often only see one piece ofinformation which is like I'm
threatened and it's because ofanother woman or another man or
(47:19):
whatever.
Um, and therefore that must notbe allowed to happen.
Um, but one of the beliefs itseems like could be cultivated
here is that love is not justreserved for one person.
That's not necessarilythreatening if your partner
falls in love with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Well, here I'll, I'll , I'll argue the other side of
like.
Okay, let's say we've had hadmessages from people who said,
like, okay, I am thinking aboutopening up the relationship,
exploring polyamory, but like,when you open that door it might
not be able to be closed again.
So what if my partner falls inlove?
(47:56):
Has that new relationshipenergy and as, like almost a
stereotypical, like husbandfalls in love with a nanny
because she's new and bright anddoesn't have all the baggage of
the marriage right?
It's like, how can you compete,quote, quote or how can you
(48:16):
stay secure in the parts of yourrelationship you have and
knowing that person won't justrun off with the new shiny thing
?
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Yeah.
So I think those people areright in thinking that once you
open it up, you probably can'tclose the door.
But it's not because, in mymind, it's not because it's
better or shinier or morethreatening or any of those
things.
It's because the other peopleinvolved are human beings and I
think a lot of times when peopleopen up their marriages or they
(48:48):
say that they're going to bepoly, they're thinking well, you
know, I need to take care ofmyself and my partner and my
partnership, and they forgetthat the other people are real
people who also deserve to havelove and security and old
relationship, energy once itdevelops, and connection and
(49:08):
like.
There's a reason why you can'tgo back if you have multiple
partners because those thosepartners are not like in the
bachelor.
We've been taught that otherpartners are disposable, right.
So, yeah, it is a risk that ifyou open yourself up, you're
more likely to fall in love withsomebody else.
It's not the only way that youcan fall in love with somebody
else, as many of us painfullyknow, right, it can just happen
(49:32):
when you're not trying to do it,um, but let's say that you do.
Then that person is a wholeperson who is potentially in
love, back and has needs and,and so one of the reasons I
think you can't go back, why Icouldn't go back easily, is
because I value those people inmy life and I'm not prepared to
just say to them well, now Idon't care about you, because
(49:54):
I've made this person mypriority, because that's not how
I see people.
But I do think like one of thereasons why I think open
relationships can be sodangerous is because they still
hold this central partnership assomehow being more important
than the other human beingsinvolved and like that would be
(50:18):
dangerous for me.
Like to get into a relationshipwith somebody where I knew that
there was a risk that even if Idid fall in love with me, they
would set me aside because itwas a threat to their
relationship.
I wouldn't want to engage inthat dynamic at all.
So for me I'm not veryinterested in being in a
(50:38):
relationship with someone who'sin an open relationship that's
so interesting right, it's justrisky for me yeah
Speaker 2 (50:46):
yeah, I think that's so interesting to think about,
because I would even think thatan open relationship feels safer
, especially and, like I have ananchor and these other people
are places that I could explorethis kink or this other need.
But I could always that thisperson is my number one.
And now that you're saying this,I'm thinking about a friend who
(51:07):
wanted to experience athreesome and when she started
meeting and going on a date withthis couple, um, it was.
It was so complicated because itwas very clear that the guy
really wanted this and the girlwas going along with it just to
try to be, you know, like shakethings up and spice, you know,
(51:28):
but it was clear that it waslike mostly driven by the guy,
and then so she had to navigatethat awkwardness and the
jealousy that popped up, butalso at the at the end, when the
girl was too, um, was too likejealous or you know, she felt so
uncomfortable that she was like, no, I don't want this.
And then it was all about thecouple kind of negotiating this
(51:50):
and and my friend was left beinglike, okay, I'm a person like
yeah, like I just went on thisdate and these two people are
like, ew no, and I'm like um,I'm not an accessory that you
could try out like I.
This was very vulnerable for meand now I feel really bad about
myself, so I'm gonna go.
So it's just.
(52:11):
It is interesting to thinkabout how, like poly
relationships respect that.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
These quote other people are like other people
yeah, I don't know, all openrelationships have this shape,
right?
Um, there's definitely thistrope of the unicorn hunting
couple, right.
That, I think has a grain oftruth to it, right, which is,
you see, and if you go on dating, you know, sometimes I go on
(52:38):
dating apps.
I would say I spend more time,like, just like, looking on
dating apps and doing anythingabout it.
But, like you know, when I'm,when I'm there, I see couples
who are looking for a third, youknow, and the way that they're
looking for a third often looksto me like, yeah, that third is
just the accessory, basicallythat, like, they've made it very
(53:00):
clear that their relationshipis the priority that they are.
You know that they're justlooking for somebody to have fun
with, and like, if you'relooking for that, that's awesome
and great and there's no reasonwhy any of us can't just get
involved in a thing that's fun,um, but I think if you go a
little further and you open upbeyond, you know, a casual thing
(53:23):
, then then you run the risk ofhurting that other person.
Who's who's the third?
Very, very much, um, and solike, for me as a potential
third, right, I'm, I'm what theywould call solo poly, so I live
by myself.
I don't currently have ananchor partner, um although that
might change for me maybe, youknow, depending who I meet.
(53:45):
So right now I could end upbeing that person, and so for me
I'm like you know, I I'm a havea little bit more scrutiny
around that, and if I do want toget involved with a couple, I
would rather get to know themone at a time as individuals,
develop my own relationshipswith those people.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I was unicorn hunted once and it did kind of suck.
I mean, it was this couple whowere thinking about being open
but they weren't thinking aboutbeing poly, I don't think.
But that wasn't totallycommunicated.
But um, the problem was I'm notbi and so the girl and I
couldn't have that relationship,and so then there was jealousy,
(54:24):
but like I did have feelingsfor the guy and attraction
towards the guy, and so thenthat kind of got messy and then
we just all tried to be bestfriends and that kind of worked.
But yeah, ultimately, like I'mnot in contact with either of
them anymore and it is kind of abummer and it was difficult to
navigate.
So I guess I was a unicornhunted.
Speaker 3 (54:48):
Yeah, yeah, it is a tricky one, but I think I want
to revisit for a second, becauseyou did ask explicitly about
falling in love with anotherperson and like is that possible
?
I mean, we've just answered thatquestion with the bachelor
example right?
Yes, it's absolutely possible.
I think many of us have been inlove with more than one person,
um, at one time.
(55:08):
You know, does that give youthe right to engage with both of
those people?
Potentially, if you couldnegotiate that situation right,
there's sort of no reason whywhy you couldn't if you were
poly um, is it a threat toanother human being for to be in
(55:30):
love?
I think this is like a culturalthing.
That is the same reason why Ifound myself and I'm sure I'm
not the only person who's foundthemselves discarded by friends
who fell in love to some degree.
Right, it's.
If.
If you think that falling inlove is somehow a better
relationship than the like deep,long lived, like grand romance
(55:55):
of friendship or the likeabsolutely earth-shattering,
beautiful love of a familymember, then yeah, yeah, you are
going to start treating peopleas if they're not enough and as
if it's a threat to them thatyou fall in love.
If you think the person that youfall in love with is somehow on
(56:16):
a pedestal and better thaneverybody else, which is now, I
think, some true feelings that Ihave coming out here and I'm
trying not to sound judgmentalbecause I don't like to judge
other people, but, like I dothink that, yeah, if you feel
that way, then the person thatyou fall in love with is a
threat to not just a romanticrelationship you have, but any
(56:37):
relationship that you have.
And so one thing to think aboutwhen you think about falling in
love is that that love is notthis isn't a zero-sum game, and
love is not a limited resource.
Time is, but love doesn't haveto be a limited resource.
There's no reason why I can'tcultivate all of the loves in my
(57:01):
life, as long as I have timefor those to cultivate those
loves.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
I do.
I am seeing how it's such aradical shift in perspective
because my like being steeped inmonogamy forever has meant that
, like, the person who gets themost time from you is the person
you are most in love with.
So it's like if I just feellike, if I feel the most love,
then I must like prioritize andgo in that direction.
(57:29):
But I can imagine a situationwhere, like, I feel really
intense in love feelings withsomebody, but that is not the
best partnership and so if youdon't have to choose, it's kind
of like okay, maybe I actuallyspend more time with a better
partnership, that the personwho's more collaborative with me
, right, who I also love butthen I can experience these like
(57:51):
in love feelings with anotherperson If I just snip that that
like thread a little bit.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
My last question is how does how does building a
family work, like, how do yousee it?
That was an interesting pointthat you brought up earlier
about a poly relationship wherekids are raised Like how do they
do that?
Like, who are the parents whoare allowed to be involved in
(58:26):
making decisions for the kids?
You know, upbringing, like yeah.
Speaker 3 (58:33):
So again, I think this is a much bigger question
than in a poly relationship.
Who's involved, to be honest?
Um, so, but let's start there.
So I mean, I don't know becauseI've never done it myself, um,
but from what I can tell, allshapes are possible.
So it's possible that thepeople who are the biological
(58:53):
parents or like the parents thatlike were most involved in the
creation of the kid or kids, arethe ones who live with the kid
and raise the kid or kids, andthen others partners may be not
involved at all.
Right, they might just beinvolved in the adults lives and
and not involved at all.
(59:14):
Um, and actually, if I was in anew relationship with anybody
with kids, I would want to bereally careful about how I met
those kids, um, and how I formedrelationships with them.
You know, I have been in thesituation where I had a
monogamous partner with a kidand I did form a relationship
with a kid and when we broke up,it was that was the thing that
(59:36):
hurt me the most and I can onlyimagine, you know, how the kid
felt in that scenario.
So I think being very carefulabout that, for sure, but there
are definitely situations inwhich multiple adults can raise
kids.
So the direct experience I haveis not with romantic
relationships but with a friendwho I've known for most of the
(59:58):
time that I've lived here in NewYork, which is a long time, and
I would consider myself to beinvolved in raising her kids in
ways that she chooses and whenshe needs support or when I feel
able to give support or noteven needs, that's like a very
strong word for like she, youknow I'm in her life.
(01:00:20):
Her kids know me really well.
I've stayed over with them whenshe's had to travel.
I've, you know, taken my partin their lives in the same way
that people do with their niecesand nephews.
So I think that like it can lookany shape, in the same way that
any village that's raising kidscan look.
(01:00:42):
And I think again, this likeshouldn't be radical, but maybe
it is because because,especially in the USA, there's
been such a premium placed onthe nuclear family and the idea
that a family is two adults andsome number of kids doing pretty
much everything together andthen potentially paying for
(01:01:05):
other services and using schoolservices.
Um, but like most of us who'veseen any other kind of shape
know that that's not the bestway to do things right, that we
might want grandparents, wemight want other family members,
we might want friends.
You know what about if youbreak up with your primary
(01:01:27):
partner or your monogamouspartner and it's just you like,
are you just going to doeverything by yourself or are
you going to, like you know,welcome the support of other
people?
So I don't think it'sdissociated from reality in any
way to be poly and have kids.
Um, like, does that mean youmight make different choices
(01:01:51):
about your time?
I'm sure.
So I think that, um, yeah, Ihave a lot of people who I've
met who have had realdifficulties, um, in poly
situations, and a lot of thetime those difficulties were
because it wasn't true poly, anda lot of the time those
difficulties were because itwasn't true poly, and this is a
(01:02:12):
really tricky one, I think.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
So I think some red flags are.
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
if somebody says that they're poly, their partner or
partners should be able to talkto you.
So you could technically likeif one of my partners wanted to
take on a new partner and thatperson didn't quite believe them
, I would talk to that personand reassure them in some way
that, like this is okay with me,so I can't see why that
wouldn't be possible elsewhereas well.
So I think someone who'sclaiming they're poly but isn't
(01:02:44):
willing to give you access totheir partners their poly but
isn't willing to give you accessto their partners, it's either
not poly or they might be in asituation um, that we mentioned
before don't ask, don't tell,don't ask, don't tell yeah um,
and like, if they're truly in adon't ask, don't tell, then you
kind of do have to respect that.
For me personally, don't ask,don't tell is not a very
(01:03:05):
comfortable place to be.
I don't necessarily want toknow nothing, but some people do
find it more comfortable toknow nothing if they're dealing
with jealousy or judgment orsome other situations.
So it's not a catch-all, likeyou can't necessarily solve it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Um, I think also, the problem is like there was a guy
who told me he was in a don'task, don't tell kind of
relationship and then we hookedup and then I found out, no,
their marriage was not open yeahand I don't know how you avoid
that with don't ask, don't tell.
Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
I don't think you can yeah, I don't think you can
unless you set a personalboundary.
That don't ask, don't tell,isn't for you um but even then,
like I don't know, like at somepoint I've ended up in that
situation with somebody justbecause they were so
uncomfortable with hearing aboutwho I was dating and ultimately
it didn't work for me to be inthat situation because I just
(01:03:58):
didn't feel that safe in asituation where I couldn't know
who they were seeing and and Icouldn't tell them at least like
a little bare minimum.
You know they don't have toknow every detail of everything.
So I don't think you canprotect yourself from that, just
like you can't protect yourselfin a monogamous relationship
from being cheated on.
All right, all you can do isgauge how much trust you have
(01:04:20):
with that person and try andcultivate as much communication
as you can and support them, andyou'd hope they'd come to you
if they were unhappy and say youknow, I'm unhappy and I want to
do something about it, ratherthan them going to somebody else
when they're unhappy.
So I don't think there's no wayto protect yourself fully in
(01:04:42):
any relationship and thequestion is always going to be
do you, do you want to take therisk and have the love, or do
you want to protect yourself andnot?
And those two choices are bothvery risky choices ultimately,
um, but I do think you can askthe right questions.
So if somebody is poly, they'remore likely to be versed in
(01:05:05):
having conversations aboutboundaries, about agreements
that you can have.
They might be more open than amonogamous person even to
sitting down and saying okay,this is the structure that I
have.
They might be more open tohaving you interact with or talk
to their other partners.
They may even love it.
They may really want you tohave what they would call
kitchen table dynamic, where youactually can sit down and have
(01:05:28):
a cup of tea together and get toknow each other.
So I think it can be helpful toask those questions and feel it
out for sure, the other redflags to me are kind of
hierarchy in general, like evenif I was at the top of the
hierarchy it would be a red flagfor me because I don't really
(01:05:50):
agree with it.
Um, I don't think that it's avery ethical place to come from
that you make one person moreimportant than others um but
again, coming from my judgmentfree or trying to be judgment
free zone, it's not actually ared flag for everybody, right?
so I think knowing your own redflags is maybe a more.
(01:06:12):
You know, for some people beingunicorn hunted might not be a
red flag at all they find?
exactly what they're looking for.
And fantastic um.
Being able to engage withpeople who are for me, who are
at least willing to examine thestructure of their relationships
, at least open to having eachdynamic be its own thing, who
(01:06:35):
are willing to be tested andsafe, is important for me.
So I'm not telling anyone thatthey have to do anything, I
think.
But I think defining foryourself your own boundaries in
a way that maybe you haven'thave to do anything, I think,
but I think defining foryourself your own boundaries in
a way that maybe you haven't hadto do before, if you haven't
gone into that poly space before, maybe having your own
(01:06:55):
agreements with yourself wouldbe one way to navigate it.
Like what's a deal breaker forme, what matters to me?
Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
amazing.
Thank you so much for coming on, um, I wish I didn't have like
15 more questions, but, um,maybe we'll continue this
conversation another time.
So, um, I really appreciate it.
I've you know some people areafraid to not be anonymous or to
come and talk about it, and Ido appreciate that you are not
(01:07:27):
playing into the shame thatshouldn't be associated, in my
mind, with this.
Um, and do you have anyresources that you would like to
share with our audience?
Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Well, I guess I should first say if you're
listening to this and you didn'tknow this about me, uh, uh, it
is a really hard conversation tohave.
I've experienced a lot ofjudgment sometimes.
I just don't have thisconversation with people, even
if I care about them a lot.
So, um, it doesn't meananything about you if you
(01:08:01):
haven't heard this about mebefore this podcast, but I do
think it's important to be open.
There's nothing wrong with this.
There's no shame in it.
Um, yeah, I mean there are somany.
Maybe I can send a list that youcan share around.
I mean, I started by readingthe Ethical Slut.
That was the first book that Iread.
It's not a perfect book, butit's one of the early books
(01:08:23):
about polyamory that really doesstart to open things up.
There's a lot of other booksout there that all have their
own merits as well.
I think a lot of people preferPolysecure as a book, for
example.
There are a lot of greatcontent creators on social media
(01:08:46):
that I can't think of off thetop of my head, but I can send
you all a list to share aroundas well.
Um, I learned a lot from dansavage's podcast, to be honest.
Um, he covers all sorts oftopics, including poly and
non-monogamy issues, that peoplecome in with.
So I also recommend, if you'rea podcast lover which you
probably are, if you'relistening to this to check that
out.
But, um, to check that out.
(01:09:08):
But yeah, I'll send a listbecause there's a long one and
you know, I think doing your ownresearch and not relying on
your partner or partners to bethe ones to educate you is
always good.
Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Amazing.
Well, little Helpers, if you'dlike to give us a five-star
rating on Apple Podcasts orSpotify, we would appreciate it
and for now, we'll see you nextweek by accessing this podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
(01:09:44):
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provided in this podcast is doneat your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
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(01:10:04):
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you certify.
Any information, product,process, service or organization
(01:10:26):
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such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends
the podcast for people withloved ones struggling with
mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people you love.
Cool of Mine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs or setting boundaries,even if you're just curious and
(00:28):
want to chat about it.
Book a free call with me bygoing to the link in the show
notes or going to coolamindcomK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get
started.
Thank you, and enjoy the showno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
So if you could so you listenedto our E&M episode and you're
here in part, to like fill insome gaps and kind of, like you
know, discuss this big, wideworld of polyamory.
Can you start by kind ofdefining polyamory, if you can,
and then kind of telling us what, why you decided to be
(01:30):
polyamorous?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Sure, yeah, I can try .
I think it's important to saythat I'm not an expert in this.
I'm just somebody who's beenliving this lifestyle for
actually not that long, um,about three, a little over three
years maybe, um, and I so, yeah, I think I I've learned a lot,
(01:56):
um, and I've educated myself alot during that time, but
there's definitely limits to myknowledge and my understanding.
So I'll start with thatdisclaimer um, and I think.
I think that I'm trying to thinkwhat a good definition of
polyamory I mean.
Literally, it means many loves,and I think that it has this
(02:19):
expansive definition, for me atleast, where non-monogamy can
mean that you have a mainrelationship and you seek other
people outside of it, but thatmaybe you have some kind of
limit to what thoserelationships with other people
outside your main relationshipcan look like.
So, for example, an openmarriage is ethical non-monogamy
(02:41):
, but it's not polyamory.
Why?
Because you prioritize thatrelationship and you might have
some rules, like you can't fallin love with other people and if
you find yourself going downthat road, you have to stop it,
or maybe you have some vetopower over the other person.
In my mind, polyamory is theidea that you can have many
(03:03):
romantic relationships or manydeep relationships, because
aromantic people can also bepolyamorous, so I don't want to
exclude anybody from thisdefinition, and that can look a
number of ways still, and thereare a lot of different shapes
(03:23):
that I think that we can getinto.
But for me it looks like havingmultiple partners who I engage
with in a way that is notnecessarily equal but is
equitable.
So what that means to me is thatand there are so many different
(03:44):
models of this that there mightbe people who have multiple
partners and they spend equalamounts of time with those
people, or maybe they all livetogether so that they can have
the privileges that come withcohabiting and, you know, living
with somebody all the time.
But equitable means that peopleget their needs met and that
(04:05):
you don't necessarily have togive the same amount of time or
energy.
You don't even have to do thesame things with every partner.
Each partnership is different,and the best way I can equate
this is to think about mypartnerships the way I think
about my friendships, which isthat I do different things with
different friends.
I have different levels ofemotional support that I receive
from them, that I give to them,I have different amounts of
(04:28):
time that I spend with differentfriends and different frequency
that I see them, and so in thesame way, I can have
partnerships where I see peoplewith all of those different
kinds of ways and frequencies aswell.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Cool.
Well, I was just going to askwhat brought you into polyamory.
But can we sorry?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
oh, that's it.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That's a good question yeah, you did ask that
already and I totally forgot toanswer it.
So, yeah, for me, um, it'ssomething that I was.
I mean, I wasn't aware of it atall for a long time I was, I
have been in long monogamousrelationships.
My longest monogamousrelationship was 13 years long
(05:14):
and during that time so I movedto New York toward the end of
that relationship relationship,the end being like we were nine
years in and I moved to New Yorkand then we still continued the
relationship long distance, andduring that time I met somebody
I made a friend who was poly,um, and that person was in an
(05:35):
open relationship with theirpartner who lived in a different
city for grad school and theyplanned to have an open
relationship.
So I didn't know it was poly atthe time.
They described it to me as anopen relationship and they
planned to close therelationship again when they
(05:55):
came back together after thegrad school experience was done.
And that was the first timethat I'd heard of people like
successfully doing that andopenly doing that and I thought
it was very cool and I did thinkfor a minute maybe I should do
that.
You know I'm in a long distancerelationship.
That's tough, but I felt likethat person wouldn't, that I was
(06:16):
in a relationship with, didn'tmaybe, wouldn't want to do that.
I felt hesitant to ask and tomaybe hurt that person in the
process, and so we remainedmonogamous.
And then I had another sort oflong relationship after that
(06:37):
that lasted a number of years.
He told me in some degree ofemotional distress, that he felt
like he was not cut out formonogamy, and it was like
several years in and I wasn'texpecting him to say that, but I
(06:59):
also found myself being veryopen to it.
For a number of reasons wedidn't do that, mostly because
he was already cheating on me agreat deal, I think turned out
he wasn't, and so, although hewasn't cut out for monogamy like
he didn't really raise it inthe correct way and like I can
laugh about it now, but at thetime it was very not funny.
(07:20):
Um, but again it was likeanother place where it like
arose in my awareness and Ifound myself thinking, oh, could
I, could I do that?
Um, in the right situation?
Um, and so, as it happened, thenext person that I met, you
know I really connected withafter that relationship, um,
(07:43):
told me that that that she waspoly, that she had multiple
partners, um, and I did findmyself open to that and this was
a very different situationwhere, you know, there was trust
built from the get-go and whereI did really trust that person,
um, and so I became curiousabout it and decided that I was
(08:03):
open to exploring it.
And I would say I didn't act onit for a long time, in the sense
that I was comfortable beingwith somebody who saw other
people and I didn't rush intoanything.
I learned some stuff, I readsome stuff, I followed some
(08:25):
people on social media, I talkedto people and I waited until I
met somebody organically who Iclicked with, who also was in
that lifestyle.
It took quite a long time and Ithink for me, that
(08:48):
intentionality of meeting theright person or people um felt
very natural and the right wayto do it, in the same way that I
would only be interested indating monogamously the right
person or people and not justsort of rushing into it.
So that that was my, myapproach and I was super
grateful to have my eyes opened.
I think initially I was reallydrawn to the amount of
(09:13):
transparency and thecommunication styles that I was
encountering, where people werereally, you know I was
encountering this ability totalk about things that maybe I
wouldn't have ever talked aboutin my monogamous relationships.
Like I told you, I was withsomebody for nine, ten years and
I was afraid to say, oh, youknow, this is hard, should we?
(09:36):
Should we do something aboutthis?
So I think it.
It caused me and allowed me to,like, take on my fears a little
bit, to try and communicatemore openly and more, um be more
open to my partner'scommunication, um.
It's a really difficult placeto be and it's like there's like
(10:00):
a lot of places that you cantrip up and mess up, but isn't
everywhere.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I'm almost thinking from a perspective of
someone who's been used totraditional relationships, the
traditional monogamousrelationships, and people who
have heard our last episodes gowell, what, when you open the
relationship, isn't that justnot a relationship?
Or doesn't that just mean,isn't that a fancy way to talk
(10:30):
about?
Just like dating around?
Right for people to benon-exclusive and dating around
they might have multipleromantic relationships with the
understanding that that's notthe only one they're having.
So tell me what to kind of like, speak to the people who have,
like no knowledge of it.
What, what is the benefit?
Or why?
Why put a new structure of polyamorous relationships versus
(10:54):
like cheating or oh you know,like you know, be dating around.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, and I like have a lot of empathy for those
people who are like what?
Because I have been one ofthose people as well.
Like, our society is so wiredfor monogamy and I, for one,
definitely thought that was theonly way for a long time, and I
thought it was the only way inmore of a way than most New
Yorkers do.
So we're all talking from fromNew York City right now.
(11:22):
I used to live in England.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And in England, start dating somebody, you start
dating one person.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
My cat is getting involved with this conversation
and I was like a little bitshocked to discover that in New
York people date multiple peopleuntil they're ready to have the
exclusivity conversation.
I guess I also didn't watchenough sitcoms when I lived in
England or I wouldn't know thatalready.
(11:54):
But like, and yeah, I wastalking to a British friend who
moved here relatively recentlyand she was like, yeah, isn't
everybody poly here?
Because everybody's datingmultiple people until they
decide that they're not.
But for me that's a little bitdifferent.
And I think it's differentbecause there's this assumption
at some point, when people startdating multiple people and then
(12:15):
they have the exclusivityconversation, that like there is
going to be an end goal ofbeing with one person.
Goal of being with one person,um, and that's a wonderful thing
.
But there is another way, whichis to have the end goal to have
either no end goal or to havethe end goal of having closeness
and and stable relationshipsthat are mutually supportive.
(12:39):
And I think for me, this hasrequired me to sit down and talk
to my partners about what is apartnership to you.
What do you want out of thispartnership, what do I want out
of this partnership?
But the assumption is not thatyou're going to end up with one
person at the end of the day.
And sometimes polyamorists andpeople in this community talk
(13:01):
about maybe not being on quitethe relationship escalator.
I don't know, have you guysheard that phrase before?
So the relationship escalatoris the idea that in a monogamous
relationship you have thesemilestones that you might want
to hit.
So you might start by datingand then you become exclusive
(13:22):
and then you meet the parentsand then you move in together
and then you marry and then youhave kids and so on and so forth
, and if you're poly, you can dothose things with one person,
or more than one person as well,except the marriage piece,
which, um is.
That's a whole different topicthat I don't know if I need or
(13:43):
want to go into more depth about.
Like, you can go through all ofthese steps, but it's not
assumed that you're going to,and so I think one of the
reasons I was drawn into thiskind of lifestyle is because I
never wanted all of those steps.
Even in my monogamousrelationships, I knew that I
didn't necessarily want to livewith that person I've actually
(14:05):
never lived with a romanticpartner, um and I didn't
necessarily want to get married.
And I knew I at some point Iknew for sure I didn't want to
have kids, and so it allows youto kind of operate in a
different shape.
Um, and I think the reason thatwe talk about the relationship
escalator is because namingsomething allows you to make
(14:29):
conscious decisions and choicesabout it instead of being
carried along by it, and thenyou know you can choose to be on
that or choose not to.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
We'll get a different expert for our next episode on
bigamy, but um for now I do likethis idea because when I think
about because I was definitelyone of those people who like
dated around until theexclusivity conversation I like
kind of made a point of itbecause it's like I'm not going
to give exclusivity to any manunless he really wants me and
(15:01):
makes that note.
Um, but it is kind of this,like almost it's not competition
, but like you're only going totake one man up that escalator
and so you kind of have thislike wide open, um sense of like
okay, like like I'm going todate around but like ultimately
I'm going to discard all of youand so, um, there, it doesn't.
(15:24):
I don't know how naturallythose relationships progress.
It would be such a differentexperience to just like if I
knew that somebody was going toI don't know how to say this
exactly If I knew that Iwouldn't just have to pick one
person to make it forever withand that I wasn't going to make
quick decisions like whoever Ichoose to be physical with, for
(15:47):
instance, or like develop anemotional relationship with
actually would maybe last forlike as long as a friendship,
then I think I would make prettydifferent decisions about who
to do that with and how fast totake that relationship and it
would also just be reallyinteresting to be like, yeah,
(16:07):
like I, you know I'm notnecessarily going to take you up
the escalator, but we're goingto like hang out in the
courtyard for as long as we wantand like jump on the escalator
if we want to, but notnecessarily.
And just yeah, have a naturalkind of I don't know thing going
with a person.
It's kind of a cool idea.
Yeah, kind of a cool idea.
(16:33):
Yeah, um, you became polyaround the same time that you, I
feel like, discovered your ownqueerness?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
do you see these things as related?
Uh, that's a great questionthat I ask myself all the time.
Yeah, so I think the truthabout my queerness is that I
probably already always knew onquite a deep level, um about it,
but I was so much in denial ofit that I was making out with
women, um, with the permissionof my partner at the time, but
(17:04):
wouldn't have said that we werepoly, and I wouldn't have said
that I was doing that because Iwas bi and that's a label that I
now use um, and so I think Iwas.
Yeah, I was really reallydeeply in denial about that for
a really long time, and so itsort of took for me, I think, to
(17:29):
meet myself, to meet the rightperson.
I got into my first relationshipwith a woman.
It felt very natural to me andI was kind of like oh yeah, I
guess I've been like this allalong.
Oh yeah, I guess I've been likethis all along, but at the same
(17:54):
time, I guess I just neverreckoned with it before.
So, yeah, one question I askmyself is is it really better
for me to be poly because I'm bi?
Right, because I'm attracted tomultiple genders.
So bi doesn't necessarily haveto mean two genders, like some
people might also use the wordpansexual I haven't used that
much about myself, but it couldalso apply to me I'm like really
attracted to the person ratherthan the gender that they have,
(18:20):
and I think that gives me like awide range and a lot of choice.
And I don't think I have much ofa physical type.
I definitely have a type in thesense of how I like to engage
with people on a sort of brainand emotional basis.
But yeah, I think it is reallynice, if you're bi, to be able
(18:42):
to have more than one partnerand be able to have partners of
more than one gender and to beable to exercise that.
But I also don't want to playinto any like.
I sometimes feel like I'mplaying into a stereotype by
doing this because I think thereis very yeah, it's very weird
to be bi.
You know, you kind of getdiscrimination on all sides,
(19:05):
like I think I think straightpeople just and and other queer
people think I'm promiscuous andthat I must, you know, just
have no discrimination about whoI am with and that like it's
somehow more dangerous for me tobe.
But I've had all sorts of, I'veheard all sorts of things about
(19:28):
myself.
That must be true because I'mbi.
Over the years this has alwaysperplexed me so much.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
These like this by you know, like these bi
stereotypes.
Um, why in the world would thatmean that you're more
promiscuous?
What's the other one?
Oh, the other one is that bipeople don't actually exist.
They're just gay and in denialor something.
I've heard that so many times,straight men saying yeah, and
then the other trope that, likeyou know, if you are like a man
(19:58):
and your girlfriend is bi, thenshe's going to cheat on you with
a woman, or like can't possiblybe happy with just you.
I hear that all the time aswell.
Um, it's just, it's a reallyincredible set of beliefs.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's bizarre because people don't go around saying oh
, your partner's straight,they're going to cheat on you
with another person of the samegender as you.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Right, you're still even, I'm straight, but there's
still four and a half billionother men that I could go for.
Like, adding another four and ahalf billion people on top of
that doesn't really mean thatI'm going to be more likely to
cheat.
That's already way too manypeople to handle.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
So yeah, yeah.
So, like I'm not more likely tocheat and in fact, you know I
did.
I did once cheat on a boyfriend, like a long, long, long, long
time ago, when I was muchyounger, and I would never do
that again time ago when I wasmuch younger, and I would never
(20:54):
do that again.
Like yeah, like I did not feelgood about myself for doing that
and, um, I think I think that,like yeah, so I don't want to.
I don't want to perpetuate anymyths that, like, you need to be
poly if you're bi because yousomehow need more partners or
you somehow are more promiscuous, or whatever.
Everybody's different.
Some people are morepromiscuous which is also
awesome, by the way, and there'snothing wrong with it um, but,
(21:17):
like, everybody can bepromiscuous.
Everybody cannot be, um, it alldepends on who you are really
so, but for me personally, it isreally wonderful for me to be
able to engage with partners ofmultiple genders and to be able
to have these different shapesof relationship be meaningful in
(21:39):
their own ways.
Describe myself as poly, I woulddescribe myself as a
relationship anarchist, in thatI think that, and I've always
felt this way that, like myromantic relationships, my
friendships, my relationshipswith family members, whoever,
(22:01):
none of them take precedenceautomatically because the kind
of, because of the kind ofrelationship that they are.
And so, you know, even back inthe day when I was monogamous, I
would have friends tell me howmuch they appreciated me still
being there for them and makingthem feel like a priority, even
when I was in a romanticrelationship.
And I have sadly lost a lot offriendships over the years with
(22:24):
people who got into romanticrelationships, especially
straight men, like I mourn a lotof my friendships with straight
men where for some reason Icouldn't be friends with them
after they got into a romanticrelationship, especially once
they got married.
And, like.
My personal belief system isthat I think that everybody
(22:45):
deserves to be a priority intheir own again, like in an
equitable way, in the way thatthey that they need.
And I think the limiting factorfor me then is not that I
believe one kind of relationshipis more important than the
other.
It's that it's my capacityreally.
(23:06):
But I will say there is onekind of relationship that I
think if I had kids I wouldprobably feel differently about
that relationship with my kids.
I.
But I don't, I'm not in thatposition.
So it's easy for me to sayeverybody's, you know, on some
kind of even plane for me.
I think if I had children, I Iwould feel differently probably.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So tell us what this looks like for you when you to
make it more you know, likesomething that people can
picture.
What does?
What are these negotiations orrules, or what does it look like
?
You know what?
What kinds of different needsdo you find in different kinds
of romantic partners, and how doyou go about negotiating that,
(23:49):
especially if people havedifferent expectations like what
does this look like on a dailybasis?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
yeah, I think there's like a couple of jokes about
poly people that we like spendmuch more time talking than we
do anything else.
That might be more fun thantalking, um, and that we like
have a massive scheduling issueall of the time and the google
calendar is our best friend, orsome form of calendar is our
(24:17):
best friend.
I guess I shouldn't plug google, but, um, uh, there's a little
bit of truth to that, I think.
So I think it requires I don'twant to say this is on a daily
basis, but certainly I just gotout of a relationship of a
number of years where we made apoint of talking about what,
(24:40):
what our wants and needs were ona semi-regular basis, and I
don't think I had ever reallydone that in a relationship
before we we actually carved outtime to say, okay, what does
this look like to you?
Like, what does it mean to youto have a partner?
What are you looking for inother partners?
(25:01):
What are your boundaries?
So we talk about boundaries alot in the relationships that I
have.
Um, so there are additionalconsiderations when you have
multiple partners in terms of,like, people's emotional safety
and people's physical and healthsafety, right?
(25:22):
So one question you might ask apartner who has other partners
is.
It might be something asprocedural as, like, you know,
if I go like, are you my, areyou my, emergency contact?
Um, you know, can I rely on youto do that, um, or do you not
have capacity for that becauseyou have other partnerships?
(25:43):
Um, you know, I have a partnerwho lives with a you know, who
has a what they would call anesting partnership with another
person, and those people are,have raised a child together and
have, um, you know, are oneanother's.
Like, primary implies some kindof hierarchy in this case, but
(26:05):
I think I'm accurate in usingthat phrase as far as that
relationship goes.
Um, so those, so those people,you know they may not have the
capacity to be my emergencycontact, like, maybe it's more
appropriate for me to haveanother partner do that, or have
a friend be that person for me.
Um, my family will live inanother country, which would
make it very difficult for themto be my emergency contacts.
(26:29):
Or, you know, you might want totalk about, like, how frequently
do we want to spend timetogether?
And really be explicit aboutthat, because it's not assumed
that I'll spend, you know, everysingle weekend with a partner.
Even I haven't really believedin having a primary partner, but
like an anchor partnership, apartner that I spend more time
(26:50):
with, that I'm more involvedwith, where I've met their
family members, my family knowabout them.
It's also can be useful ifyou're poly to have a person
that you can tell people about.
That's your partner, becauseyou don't always want to have
that whole conversation withevery single person you meet.
(27:11):
It's a lot, um.
So, yeah, there's all kinds ofthings that you might talk about
there, like frequency of thetime you spend together, but
also like what are youcomfortable with?
Like, who are you?
Who are you comfortable with meseeing?
Um, is there any line that youdraw?
What protection are we going touse sexually?
Um, how often are we going toget tested?
(27:34):
Um, all of these things are upfor negotiation in every
relationship kind, but I foundmyself talking about them more
frequently and checking in morefrequently, and maybe that's
just because I don't know ifit's like a rule of being poly.
Maybe it's just a result ofbeing more drawn to people who
(27:54):
are more communicative thesedays, um, but for me it
definitely looks like, okay,maybe every three months we're
gonna talk about how things aregoing and how we're feeling
about things, whether we do wantto shift, whether we do want to
get on the relationshipescalator anywhere.
But with my more, my, maybe myless involved partnerships it
(28:17):
might not look quite asstructured as that.
It might more look like justbeing able to sit down and have
a chat about that as and when.
But you don't necessarily needto schedule it.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
It's funny when I imagine being poly.
Part of me sees this like,instead of the escalator, it's
like wide open field where youjust get to like explore and
just you know, play and be you.
And then part of me sees like achore chart where it's just
like so many, like boundaries tokeep in mind and check-ins to
have and like deep, heavyconversations, and I'm like'm
like oh woof, like that feelsreally heavy and a part of it
(28:51):
feels really light.
Does that part ever exhaust youor is this?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
it sounds like it's one of the biggest draws yeah, I
think I think the communicationpiece is a big draw.
Um, yeah, it can be exhausting.
I think, like taking intoconsideration, like multiple
people's needs can be a lot, andI think one of the things that
(29:19):
has been the biggest strugglefor me is not so much sort of
scheduling and planning andhaving the conversations, but
just the things that come upthat like there is no model for.
So having somebody you knowdealing with something or
something surfacing for apartner that maybe, um, you
(29:43):
wouldn't normally have to dealwith in a monogamous
relationship like a partner, forexample, a partner disapproving
of somebody that you see, orfeeling like I'm saying, I'm
saying you, but I can onlyreally speak from, like personal
experience.
So like in my case, having apartner disapprove of, actively
(30:10):
of, of one of my other partners,or the way that I engage with
other partners.
Um, it's not really in theplaybook, it's not in any of the
books that I read or thepodcasts that I listen to, um,
but it is a human thing, right?
Jealousy, dealing with jealousyfrom a partner is a very human
(30:30):
thing.
Or feeling jealousy or feelinganxiety that your partner's
partner, right, what they wouldcall your metamor.
Um, so your partner would beyour paramour, right, the person
that you engage with, and yourmetamor would be your paramours.
Paramour, um, so, like thepartner of your partner, like,
how do they feel like I get alot of anxiety around.
(30:52):
Are they okay?
Are they having a good time inthis scenario?
Do they know about me?
What do they want to know aboutme?
I, I feel like I do a lot ofcaretaking in my life in general
, and so I'm drawn to caretakingthis scenario as well, for
better or worse.
So I'm like are they, you know,is everybody all right here?
(31:13):
Are they jealous?
Are they upset?
Um, I've had to deal with myown jealousy, of course.
Um, because that's a thing like, probably people are not
non-jealous, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I would love to hear how you have handled and evolved
with jealousy, and also howyou've, like developed
compersion, just because I thinkthat I'm good at not being
super jealous.
But I don't know that, I don'tknow that I have it in me to be
genuinely happy for my partner,at least, like with somebody
else.
So, yeah, so just as an aside,like I didn't want to interrupt,
(31:46):
but I also would love to hearabout.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, I think I was getting on a train of
consciousness of like a wholelist of things.
So we can stop here for aminute and then maybe land on
some more things.
Then maybe land on some more umthings.
So I think compersion, um forthose who haven't listened to
one of these episodes yet,compersion is the it's, it's
taking pleasure in yourpartner's pleasure or in
(32:08):
another's pleasure, um, it'skind of framed as being the
opposite of jealousy, um, inthat you feel real joy in the,
in the joy that somebody else isfeeling and, specifically in
this context, it's taking joy inyour partner feeling love,
(32:28):
connection, maybe having aphysical relationship with
somebody else, um, to the pointof like, maybe even being
present for that situation.
As in some poly relationships,there's all kinds of dynamics,
including a dynamic where you'reactually around for some of
that and you witness those twopeople interacting as a dyad and
(32:52):
you feel joy for them.
And I don't necessarily know hownatural of an emotion that is,
but I think I would say itprobably is different for
everybody yeah and so isjealousy um, and I do think I'm
a person who naturallyexperiences less jealousy um,
(33:15):
which in the past hasn't alwaysbeen great for me, to be honest,
like when I was being cheatedon.
I think the fact that I didn'tfeel a lot of jealousy meant
that I was missing a warningsign or I was overlooking
warning signs, because I washappy for that person to have a
lot of independence and be doingtheir own thing and I gave a
(33:36):
lot of space, and so that meansthat if somebody does want to do
something not okay with thatspace, they can.
And I have to say, when we didtalk in that one relationship I
mentioned, where the person saidthat they might want to be poly
, the one person I really wasnot up for being poly with was
(33:56):
the person that they werecheating on me with.
I felt no compulsion for thatperson and I was like, yeah,
this person does not mean me.
Well, they feel they, they meanharm to me.
Um, I sort of knew that and Iwas like I'm I'm open to being
poly with another individual orindividuals, but not this
(34:19):
particular person.
So I also think it's situationdependent a little bit.
So I think for me, yeah, Ihaven't had a lot of jealousy
and maybe hand in hand, when Idid start getting into poly
situations, I did feel a lot ofcompulsion before I knew what it
was called.
(34:44):
I did feel a lot of compulsionbefore I knew what it was called
, um, and I think for me it's alittle of just.
I do feel a lot of joy and otherpeople's joy and maybe that
just makes me very lucky to havethat like I don't know if I've
cultivated it, um, and thenthere's also the piece that I
have cultivated because it'simportant for me to engage in
this lifestyle and try it outand see if it's for me in the
(35:07):
long term and um, and then it'salso, I think, been really.
Oh wait, there was a third thingand I forgot what it was now,
oh, maybe it'll come back to meum, because it's not just about
trying it out, I think it's alsooh, I know what it was, it was
a communication piece.
(35:28):
So, because communication hasnow become so important to me
and transparency and honesty,like it's actually really nice
for me to know what the peoplein my life are up to and hear
their news and if that meanshearing some details about a
date that they went on and athing that they did together or
a place that they own togetherthat they go to or whatever it
(35:50):
is, or something a little bitmore, you know, salty.
Then that's like I havediscovered that I'm up for
hearing about that and that's aform of compersion'm up for
hearing about that and that's aform of compulsion as well, in
the sense that, like, it bringsme pleasure to be included in
the conversation and to knowwhat's going on and for me that
outweighs the feelings ofjealousy I might have because
(36:11):
they're doing that thing withoutme.
But I also think compulsioncomes with a partner or you know
in in each situation who takescare of your feelings.
Um, because I think a lot ofjealousy and upset and the
opposite, like lack ofcompulsion, for me has come when
(36:32):
I haven't felt enough or Ihaven't felt like something was
available.
Like jealousy is often anemotion.
I think that gives usinformation and the information
might be like oh, I feel likeI'm not enough for this person,
or I feel like this persondoesn't want to do this with me.
Or I feel, you know, like it'soften not really so much I don't
(36:55):
want this person to be aroundanother person.
It's often not really so much Idon't want this person to be
around another person.
It's more like, you know, evenin a monogamous relationship, I
might be like why does mypartner always want to go on
vacation with his guy friendsand not invite me?
And like that happened for mein a relationship right when
(37:16):
they did invite me, oh my, mygod, I did not want to be there
at all.
Like it wasn't good and I waslike completely cured of my
jealousy in that area because Iwas like, yeah, you go, I don't
want to be part of this.
You drink beer at 9 am in themorning.
I can't handle that.
Yeah, I said they're not twosides of the same coin, but
(37:39):
they're definitely related toeach other I'm wondering if the
jealousy piece would be like theway you're describing.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It makes sense, um, and I feel like a lot of people
would feel that, and when, eventhinking about, oh, I'm going to
explore a polyamorous or openrelationship, there is an
inherent understanding that,yeah, you are not enough.
Because what?
Even by your definition of poly, you know, relationships is
(38:07):
like I have different needs metby different relationships, and
that that makes sense.
On one level, I'm like, yeah,of course I have tons of
different needs that I satisfyoutside my marriage.
At the same time, though,wouldn't that be tough to deal
with if you're in, let's say,you have a couple of
relationships, and then one ofthem, one of your paramours, or
(38:30):
says oh yeah, I got anotherparamour because you're not
satisfying this need and it's,you know, like I could imagine
in like like a very, you know,like a imagine and like like a
very, you know, like a jealousside of me.
I'd be like well, if someone'sactually looking for other
partners and feel, feel needs,that's really gonna just tell me
that I wasn't enough in thatarea.
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
well, hopefully, you deal with it with a lot of
compassion in in any situationand, like that is something that
you know, you can say, yeah,I'm seeking somebody else
because you're not enough.
Or you could say, you know, hey, we've been married for like 20
years at this point and like weno longer have a sexual
(39:13):
relationship.
Um, like, how would you feelabout you?
Know, I value this about youand this about you and all of
these things?
You know you bring me so muchjoy and security.
I love doing these things withyou, but I also have a need.
But this is a very extremeexample, but it is one that you
hear about.
If you listen to you know DanSavage or somebody's you know,
(39:37):
advice, advice, column type ofshow, then you'll hear people
dealing with these situationsall the time.
What are you going to do?
Discard that person from yourlife, walk away just because you
have a need that they're notmeeting?
Or do you negotiate that?
And you say, look, it doesn'tmean anything about you if I go
and seek this somewhere else.
(39:58):
Look, it doesn't mean anythingabout you if I go and seek this
somewhere else.
You also hear about it in thesituation where somebody has a
kink that their partner isn'tinto and again, it doesn't
necessarily mean that thatpartner is not enough, it just
means that that partner is notinto that kink.
And, like you can't reallyoften control what you're into
and what you're not into in asituation, but, you know,
(40:22):
perhaps there's a world in whichthat person really needs to try
that out, really feels likethey would be fulfilled in
having that If they can have acompassionate conversation with
their partner and say, you know,especially in a poly situation
where it's assumed you're goingto do that anyway, especially in
a poly situation where it'sassumed you're going to do that
anyway, right, and say you knowthis, this is, um, you know,
(40:42):
this is something I really wantto try and I found somebody who
will go to these things with meand try this out with me.
Um, and there's also anotherway to frame it, which is the
way that I tend to frame it withmy partners, is that it's not
that not nobody's not enough,it's just that everybody's
different um, and I just want tobe able to be open to
connections as they come alongand able to make those
(41:07):
connections um, and you.
There does have to be a lot ofcare, so another thing that
might be good to talk about atthis point is the concept that,
like, the new is always theshinier, the more alluring the
better, and I think a lot ofthese emotions and concerns
(41:29):
don't just come up around notbeing enough potentially, but
also come up around well, whathappens when you meet somebody
new and you have all thosebutterflies and you're really,
really into them and you'rereally excited about them and
you have what is often callednew relationship energy or nre
(41:50):
there's lots of acronyms in thisworld for some reason, like new
relationship energy is exactlywhat you think it would be, is
the energy you have in a newrelationship, and it's something
that you sign away.
When you sign into a monogamousrelationship, you kind of give
that up right, you might get alittle bit of it if you're
someone who has a sort of mutualagreement or not with your
(42:12):
partner that you can flirt right, and flirtation is usually a
socially acceptable way ofexercising a little bit of new
relationship energy, typefeeling um.
But if you're poly, then asocially acceptable way is to
actually date somebody new andhave those butterflies, and I do
think if you're somebody whocares about your other partners,
(42:34):
you have to take a lot of careof them in that situation.
That's when a lot of emotionscan arise, because of course,
the new is always shinier andmore exciting and more fun and
more energetic.
And you know, you're learningall these things and you're
maybe even shaping yourself forthat person a little bit.
Right, it's hard not to shapeyourself for a new partner.
(42:56):
When you meet a new partner, belike oh yeah, I'm totally into
museums, I go to museums all thetime.
You know, let's do that.
Then, two years down the line,you're like yeah, I know, we
haven't been to a museum for ayear.
I'm not really a museum person.
I was into it because you wereinto it, you know.
So, like that's something againthat I think there just does
(43:18):
have to be a lot of care aboutit.
And in an ideal situation youshould be able to raise that
with somebody and say, hey, I'venoticed you're spending a lot
of time with so-and-so.
Um, I'm beginning to feel alittle bit left out, like maybe
we could plan some time.
You know, I'd like to see youtwice a week and you know, I'm
(43:42):
not asking you to see them less,I'm just asking you to make
time for me.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
That would be a responsible way to handle that I
think old relationship energyneeds a rebrand because it's you
know, it's so funny when youhave it's like like yes, there's
new relationship energy, butthen that person who has like an
anchor partner or nestingpartner or whatever, will
ultimately come home to thatperson.
(44:07):
I mean that you know like wehave become so threatened and I
would be this would be mynightmares like the NRE, like
you know, cropping up for mypartner, and I don't know that I
would feel compersion at all,but we feel so threatened by
that.
But it's like this sense thatour, like, longer term
relationships are notinteresting or exciting when in
(44:31):
reality, our longer termrelationships are the people
that we've stuck around longenough to build something with
and that should theoretically bethe more you know quote unquote
threatening.
So anyways, I don't know.
I feel like there should besome sort of rebrand there.
I liked in your notes that yousent over, though you said
should we be threatened by ourpartner falling in love with
(44:52):
somebody else, or is it possibleto be in love with multiple
people?
And I went on a show where itis proven season after season
that you can be in love with twopeople, but of course, on the
Bachelor you ultimately have todiscard one, because it is only
acceptable to have a singlepartner, and so it is better to
break the hearts of the otherpeople that you've fallen in
(45:14):
love with.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Bachelor is almost like socially sanctioned, would
you call it.
I mean, it wouldn't bepolyamory, it would be harem
yeah, it sort of is a harem vibe.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
Um, personally I don't love a harem vibe as a
concept for my own life, like Idon't like the idea that one,
that one person can have all thepartners and other partners
don't.
So you know, on the one handit'd be great to have a version
of the Bachelor where everyone'squeer and poly, but on the
other hand there'd be no dramaand everyone would be really
happy.
(45:52):
Um, and just talking for a whilethat's what I want for all of
us.
I want us to have no drama andbe really happy.
I mean also like, alas, beingqueer and poly does not spare
you from drama.
Drama, it's a human condition.
Yeah, the harem vibe, you know.
Equities speaking of equity,which is like clearly one of my
(46:13):
favorite words, that hopefullywe won't get banned for um, it's
like, um, it's it's like yeah,if you're in a relationship with
somebody else who gets to seeother people, you should also be
afforded the same um, and ifyou are in a relationship with
somebody who wants to vetosomebody that you're seeing, for
(46:35):
example, because they thinkthey're not good for you or they
don't like them or they thinkthat something that they do is
not okay, then you also shouldhave a power of veto over what
your partner's partners, andoften that doesn't happen right
in these kinds of relationships.
That wasn't what we weretalking about, though I got
(46:55):
distracted by it.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Well, I mean, one of the ways I do feel like
compersion can be cultivated orlower jealousy can be cultivated
is by changing your beliefsabout what these things mean,
and I love what you said aboutlike jealousy gives you
information.
I feel like people who getreally riled up with jealousy
often only see one piece ofinformation which is like I'm
threatened and it's because ofanother woman or another man or
(47:19):
whatever.
Um, and therefore that must notbe allowed to happen.
Um, but one of the beliefs itseems like could be cultivated
here is that love is not justreserved for one person.
That's not necessarilythreatening if your partner
falls in love with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Well, here I'll, I'll , I'll argue the other side of
like.
Okay, let's say we've had hadmessages from people who said,
like, okay, I am thinking aboutopening up the relationship,
exploring polyamory, but like,when you open that door it might
not be able to be closed again.
So what if my partner falls inlove?
(47:56):
Has that new relationshipenergy and as, like almost a
stereotypical, like husbandfalls in love with a nanny
because she's new and bright anddoesn't have all the baggage of
the marriage right?
It's like, how can you compete,quote, quote or how can you
(48:16):
stay secure in the parts of yourrelationship you have and
knowing that person won't justrun off with the new shiny thing
?
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Yeah.
So I think those people areright in thinking that once you
open it up, you probably can'tclose the door.
But it's not because, in mymind, it's not because it's
better or shinier or morethreatening or any of those
things.
It's because the other peopleinvolved are human beings and I
think a lot of times when peopleopen up their marriages or they
(48:48):
say that they're going to bepoly, they're thinking well, you
know, I need to take care ofmyself and my partner and my
partnership, and they forgetthat the other people are real
people who also deserve to havelove and security and old
relationship, energy once itdevelops, and connection and
(49:08):
like.
There's a reason why you can'tgo back if you have multiple
partners because those thosepartners are not like in the
bachelor.
We've been taught that otherpartners are disposable, right.
So, yeah, it is a risk that ifyou open yourself up, you're
more likely to fall in love withsomebody else.
It's not the only way that youcan fall in love with somebody
else, as many of us painfullyknow, right, it can just happen
(49:32):
when you're not trying to do it,um, but let's say that you do.
Then that person is a wholeperson who is potentially in
love, back and has needs and,and so one of the reasons I
think you can't go back, why Icouldn't go back easily, is
because I value those people inmy life and I'm not prepared to
just say to them well, now Idon't care about you, because
(49:54):
I've made this person mypriority, because that's not how
I see people.
But I do think like one of thereasons why I think open
relationships can be sodangerous is because they still
hold this central partnership assomehow being more important
than the other human beingsinvolved and like that would be
(50:18):
dangerous for me.
Like to get into a relationshipwith somebody where I knew that
there was a risk that even if Idid fall in love with me, they
would set me aside because itwas a threat to their
relationship.
I wouldn't want to engage inthat dynamic at all.
So for me I'm not veryinterested in being in a
(50:38):
relationship with someone who'sin an open relationship that's
so interesting right, it's justrisky for me yeah
Speaker 2 (50:46):
yeah, I think that's so interesting to think about,
because I would even think thatan open relationship feels safer
, especially and, like I have ananchor and these other people
are places that I could explorethis kink or this other need.
But I could always that thisperson is my number one.
And now that you're saying this,I'm thinking about a friend who
(51:07):
wanted to experience athreesome and when she started
meeting and going on a date withthis couple, um, it was.
It was so complicated because itwas very clear that the guy
really wanted this and the girlwas going along with it just to
try to be, you know, like shakethings up and spice, you know,
(51:28):
but it was clear that it waslike mostly driven by the guy,
and then so she had to navigatethat awkwardness and the
jealousy that popped up, butalso at the at the end, when the
girl was too, um, was too likejealous or you know, she felt so
uncomfortable that she was like, no, I don't want this.
And then it was all about thecouple kind of negotiating this
(51:50):
and and my friend was left beinglike, okay, I'm a person like
yeah, like I just went on thisdate and these two people are
like, ew no, and I'm like um,I'm not an accessory that you
could try out like I.
This was very vulnerable for meand now I feel really bad about
myself, so I'm gonna go.
So it's just.
(52:11):
It is interesting to thinkabout how, like poly
relationships respect that.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
These quote other people are like other people
yeah, I don't know, all openrelationships have this shape,
right?
Um, there's definitely thistrope of the unicorn hunting
couple, right.
That, I think has a grain oftruth to it, right, which is,
you see, and if you go on dating, you know, sometimes I go on
(52:38):
dating apps.
I would say I spend more time,like, just like, looking on
dating apps and doing anythingabout it.
But, like you know, when I'm,when I'm there, I see couples
who are looking for a third, youknow, and the way that they're
looking for a third often looksto me like, yeah, that third is
just the accessory, basicallythat, like, they've made it very
(53:00):
clear that their relationshipis the priority that they are.
You know that they're justlooking for somebody to have fun
with, and like, if you'relooking for that, that's awesome
and great and there's no reasonwhy any of us can't just get
involved in a thing that's fun,um, but I think if you go a
little further and you open upbeyond, you know, a casual thing
(53:23):
, then then you run the risk ofhurting that other person.
Who's who's the third?
Very, very much, um, and solike, for me as a potential
third, right, I'm, I'm what theywould call solo poly, so I live
by myself.
I don't currently have ananchor partner, um although that
might change for me maybe, youknow, depending who I meet.
(53:45):
So right now I could end upbeing that person, and so for me
I'm like you know, I I'm a havea little bit more scrutiny
around that, and if I do want toget involved with a couple, I
would rather get to know themone at a time as individuals,
develop my own relationshipswith those people.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I was unicorn hunted once and it did kind of suck.
I mean, it was this couple whowere thinking about being open
but they weren't thinking aboutbeing poly, I don't think.
But that wasn't totallycommunicated.
But um, the problem was I'm notbi and so the girl and I
couldn't have that relationship,and so then there was jealousy,
(54:24):
but like I did have feelingsfor the guy and attraction
towards the guy, and so thenthat kind of got messy and then
we just all tried to be bestfriends and that kind of worked.
But yeah, ultimately, like I'mnot in contact with either of
them anymore and it is kind of abummer and it was difficult to
navigate.
So I guess I was a unicornhunted.
Speaker 3 (54:48):
Yeah, yeah, it is a tricky one, but I think I want
to revisit for a second, becauseyou did ask explicitly about
falling in love with anotherperson and like is that possible
?
I mean, we've just answered thatquestion with the bachelor
example right?
Yes, it's absolutely possible.
I think many of us have been inlove with more than one person,
um, at one time.
(55:08):
You know, does that give youthe right to engage with both of
those people?
Potentially, if you couldnegotiate that situation right,
there's sort of no reason whywhy you couldn't if you were
poly um, is it a threat toanother human being for to be in
(55:30):
love?
I think this is like a culturalthing.
That is the same reason why Ifound myself and I'm sure I'm
not the only person who's foundthemselves discarded by friends
who fell in love to some degree.
Right, it's.
If.
If you think that falling inlove is somehow a better
relationship than the like deep,long lived, like grand romance
(55:55):
of friendship or the likeabsolutely earth-shattering,
beautiful love of a familymember, then yeah, yeah, you are
going to start treating peopleas if they're not enough and as
if it's a threat to them thatyou fall in love.
If you think the person that youfall in love with is somehow on
(56:16):
a pedestal and better thaneverybody else, which is now, I
think, some true feelings that Ihave coming out here and I'm
trying not to sound judgmentalbecause I don't like to judge
other people, but, like I dothink that, yeah, if you feel
that way, then the person thatyou fall in love with is a
threat to not just a romanticrelationship you have, but any
(56:37):
relationship that you have.
And so one thing to think aboutwhen you think about falling in
love is that that love is notthis isn't a zero-sum game, and
love is not a limited resource.
Time is, but love doesn't haveto be a limited resource.
There's no reason why I can'tcultivate all of the loves in my
(57:01):
life, as long as I have timefor those to cultivate those
loves.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
I do.
I am seeing how it's such aradical shift in perspective
because my like being steeped inmonogamy forever has meant that
, like, the person who gets themost time from you is the person
you are most in love with.
So it's like if I just feellike, if I feel the most love,
then I must like prioritize andgo in that direction.
(57:29):
But I can imagine a situationwhere, like, I feel really
intense in love feelings withsomebody, but that is not the
best partnership and so if youdon't have to choose, it's kind
of like okay, maybe I actuallyspend more time with a better
partnership, that the personwho's more collaborative with me
, right, who I also love butthen I can experience these like
(57:51):
in love feelings with anotherperson If I just snip that that
like thread a little bit.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
My last question is how does how does building a
family work, like, how do yousee it?
That was an interesting pointthat you brought up earlier
about a poly relationship wherekids are raised Like how do they
do that?
Like, who are the parents whoare allowed to be involved in
(58:26):
making decisions for the kids?
You know, upbringing, like yeah.
Speaker 3 (58:33):
So again, I think this is a much bigger question
than in a poly relationship.
Who's involved, to be honest?
Um, so, but let's start there.
So I mean, I don't know becauseI've never done it myself, um,
but from what I can tell, allshapes are possible.
So it's possible that thepeople who are the biological
(58:53):
parents or like the parents thatlike were most involved in the
creation of the kid or kids, arethe ones who live with the kid
and raise the kid or kids, andthen others partners may be not
involved at all.
Right, they might just beinvolved in the adults lives and
and not involved at all.
(59:14):
Um, and actually, if I was in anew relationship with anybody
with kids, I would want to bereally careful about how I met
those kids, um, and how I formedrelationships with them.
You know, I have been in thesituation where I had a
monogamous partner with a kidand I did form a relationship
with a kid and when we broke up,it was that was the thing that
(59:36):
hurt me the most and I can onlyimagine, you know, how the kid
felt in that scenario.
So I think being very carefulabout that, for sure, but there
are definitely situations inwhich multiple adults can raise
kids.
So the direct experience I haveis not with romantic
relationships but with a friendwho I've known for most of the
(59:58):
time that I've lived here in NewYork, which is a long time, and
I would consider myself to beinvolved in raising her kids in
ways that she chooses and whenshe needs support or when I feel
able to give support or noteven needs, that's like a very
strong word for like she, youknow I'm in her life.
(01:00:20):
Her kids know me really well.
I've stayed over with them whenshe's had to travel.
I've, you know, taken my partin their lives in the same way
that people do with their niecesand nephews.
So I think that like it can lookany shape, in the same way that
any village that's raising kidscan look.
(01:00:42):
And I think again, this likeshouldn't be radical, but maybe
it is because because,especially in the USA, there's
been such a premium placed onthe nuclear family and the idea
that a family is two adults andsome number of kids doing pretty
much everything together andthen potentially paying for
(01:01:05):
other services and using schoolservices.
Um, but like most of us who'veseen any other kind of shape
know that that's not the bestway to do things right, that we
might want grandparents, wemight want other family members,
we might want friends.
You know what about if youbreak up with your primary
(01:01:27):
partner or your monogamouspartner and it's just you like,
are you just going to doeverything by yourself or are
you going to, like you know,welcome the support of other
people?
So I don't think it'sdissociated from reality in any
way to be poly and have kids.
Um, like, does that mean youmight make different choices
(01:01:51):
about your time?
I'm sure.
So I think that, um, yeah, Ihave a lot of people who I've
met who have had realdifficulties, um, in poly
situations, and a lot of thetime those difficulties were
because it wasn't true poly, anda lot of the time those
difficulties were because itwasn't true poly, and this is a
(01:02:12):
really tricky one, I think.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
So I think some red flags are.
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
if somebody says that they're poly, their partner or
partners should be able to talkto you.
So you could technically likeif one of my partners wanted to
take on a new partner and thatperson didn't quite believe them
, I would talk to that personand reassure them in some way
that, like this is okay with me,so I can't see why that
wouldn't be possible elsewhereas well.
So I think someone who'sclaiming they're poly but isn't
(01:02:44):
willing to give you access totheir partners their poly but
isn't willing to give you accessto their partners, it's either
not poly or they might be in asituation um, that we mentioned
before don't ask, don't tell,don't ask, don't tell yeah um,
and like, if they're truly in adon't ask, don't tell, then you
kind of do have to respect that.
For me personally, don't ask,don't tell is not a very
(01:03:05):
comfortable place to be.
I don't necessarily want toknow nothing, but some people do
find it more comfortable toknow nothing if they're dealing
with jealousy or judgment orsome other situations.
So it's not a catch-all, likeyou can't necessarily solve it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Um, I think also, the problem is like there was a guy
who told me he was in a don'task, don't tell kind of
relationship and then we hookedup and then I found out, no,
their marriage was not open yeahand I don't know how you avoid
that with don't ask, don't tell.
Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
I don't think you can yeah, I don't think you can
unless you set a personalboundary.
That don't ask, don't tell,isn't for you um but even then,
like I don't know, like at somepoint I've ended up in that
situation with somebody justbecause they were so
uncomfortable with hearing aboutwho I was dating and ultimately
it didn't work for me to be inthat situation because I just
(01:03:58):
didn't feel that safe in asituation where I couldn't know
who they were seeing and and Icouldn't tell them at least like
a little bare minimum.
You know they don't have toknow every detail of everything.
So I don't think you canprotect yourself from that, just
like you can't protect yourselfin a monogamous relationship
from being cheated on.
All right, all you can do isgauge how much trust you have
(01:04:20):
with that person and try andcultivate as much communication
as you can and support them, andyou'd hope they'd come to you
if they were unhappy and say youknow, I'm unhappy and I want to
do something about it, ratherthan them going to somebody else
when they're unhappy.
So I don't think there's no wayto protect yourself fully in
(01:04:42):
any relationship and thequestion is always going to be
do you, do you want to take therisk and have the love, or do
you want to protect yourself andnot?
And those two choices are bothvery risky choices ultimately,
um, but I do think you can askthe right questions.
So if somebody is poly, they'remore likely to be versed in
(01:05:05):
having conversations aboutboundaries, about agreements
that you can have.
They might be more open than amonogamous person even to
sitting down and saying okay,this is the structure that I
have.
They might be more open tohaving you interact with or talk
to their other partners.
They may even love it.
They may really want you tohave what they would call
kitchen table dynamic, where youactually can sit down and have
(01:05:28):
a cup of tea together and get toknow each other.
So I think it can be helpful toask those questions and feel it
out for sure, the other redflags to me are kind of
hierarchy in general, like evenif I was at the top of the
hierarchy it would be a red flagfor me because I don't really
(01:05:50):
agree with it.
Um, I don't think that it's avery ethical place to come from
that you make one person moreimportant than others um but
again, coming from my judgmentfree or trying to be judgment
free zone, it's not actually ared flag for everybody, right?
so I think knowing your own redflags is maybe a more.
(01:06:12):
You know, for some people beingunicorn hunted might not be a
red flag at all they find?
exactly what they're looking for.
And fantastic um.
Being able to engage withpeople who are for me, who are
at least willing to examine thestructure of their relationships
, at least open to having eachdynamic be its own thing, who
(01:06:35):
are willing to be tested andsafe, is important for me.
So I'm not telling anyone thatthey have to do anything, I
think.
But I think defining foryourself your own boundaries in
a way that maybe you haven'thave to do anything, I think,
but I think defining foryourself your own boundaries in
a way that maybe you haven't hadto do before, if you haven't
gone into that poly space before, maybe having your own
(01:06:55):
agreements with yourself wouldbe one way to navigate it.
Like what's a deal breaker forme, what matters to me?
Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
amazing.
Thank you so much for coming on, um, I wish I didn't have like
15 more questions, but, um,maybe we'll continue this
conversation another time.
So, um, I really appreciate it.
I've you know some people areafraid to not be anonymous or to
come and talk about it, and Ido appreciate that you are not
(01:07:27):
playing into the shame thatshouldn't be associated, in my
mind, with this.
Um, and do you have anyresources that you would like to
share with our audience?
Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Well, I guess I should first say if you're
listening to this and you didn'tknow this about me, uh, uh, it
is a really hard conversation tohave.
I've experienced a lot ofjudgment sometimes.
I just don't have thisconversation with people, even
if I care about them a lot.
So, um, it doesn't meananything about you if you
(01:08:01):
haven't heard this about mebefore this podcast, but I do
think it's important to be open.
There's nothing wrong with this.
There's no shame in it.
Um, yeah, I mean there are somany.
Maybe I can send a list that youcan share around.
I mean, I started by readingthe Ethical Slut.
That was the first book that Iread.
It's not a perfect book, butit's one of the early books
(01:08:23):
about polyamory that really doesstart to open things up.
There's a lot of other booksout there that all have their
own merits as well.
I think a lot of people preferPolysecure as a book, for
example.
There are a lot of greatcontent creators on social media
(01:08:46):
that I can't think of off thetop of my head, but I can send
you all a list to share aroundas well.
Um, I learned a lot from dansavage's podcast, to be honest.
Um, he covers all sorts oftopics, including poly and
non-monogamy issues, that peoplecome in with.
So I also recommend, if you'rea podcast lover which you
probably are, if you'relistening to this to check that
out.
But, um, to check that out.
(01:09:08):
But yeah, I'll send a listbecause there's a long one and
you know, I think doing your ownresearch and not relying on
your partner or partners to bethe ones to educate you is
always good.
Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Amazing.
Well, little Helpers, if you'dlike to give us a five-star
rating on Apple Podcasts orSpotify, we would appreciate it
and for now, we'll see you nextweek by accessing this podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
(01:09:44):
Featured in this podcast, theinformation, opinions and
recommendations presented inthis podcast are for general
information only and anyreliance on the information
provided in this podcast is doneat your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
(01:10:04):
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the Thank
you certify.
Any information, product,process, service or organization
(01:10:26):
presented or mentioned in thispodcast and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
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