Love Island USA Analysis Part 1: Untangling Reality TV Relationship Dynamics

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little Helpers, we aregoing to do something new which
is psychoanalyze reality TV.
So a little bit out of ourwheelhouse, but also kind of in
our wheelhouse.
We are not so secretly bigreality TV fans.

(00:25):
Obviously I am coming from thatworld, but kibbe might be even
more hardcore than I am, so wefigured it was time to break
down a show.
We're gonna start with loveisland.
Um, since it has like 80 000different episodes, we are going
to let you know that we are atabout episode 18, 19, something
like something like that I thinkso, yeah, okay.

(00:45):
So if you have not gotten there,listen no further, because we
don't want to spoil anything,but we thought we would do like
a mid-season, you knowpsychoanalysis, and then pick up
later.
But first, kibbe, let us knowyour exciting announcement.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02):
Yeah, I mean we've been teasing this and
mentioning this in past episodes.
You know that we've beenworking really hard on the
KulaMind community and it'slaunching July 14th, so this
Monday.
So it's really exciting.
It's going to be really cool.
It's the meat of it is going tobe a course like a skills group
where we all can learn thesedifferent skills of how to

(01:26):
support our loved ones withmental illness or addiction.
So we're going to cover allsorts of evidence-based
strategies that we have beentalking about on this podcast
that we know work, like settingboundaries and actually making
it stick, rediscovering yourselfand communicating effectively
and really understanding whatyour loved ones are going

(01:46):
through.
So it doesn't seem like thischaos of oh my God, my loved
one's just exploding and I don'tknow what to do, but you
actually understand what'shappening, how emotions work and
how to work with them insteadof against them.
So it's going to be really cool.
The skills group is led by me.
Jacqueline and I are going totag team a lot in it.
So, um, you'll get both of usand a lot more direct uh

(02:09):
interaction and feedback, andthere's going to be a lot of
curated resources and a lot ofpeer support.
So it's going to be this wholeplatform.
We could all get together andwork on these and support these
together.
So if you're curious, just goto coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom the link isin the show notes and you get
50% off of your first month.

(02:30):
So, as little helpers, you getthis special discount.

So yeah , I feel like that was so
serious and educational, and nowwe have to pivot into snark and
trash TV, so just a quick reset.

Yeah, I think this is your first, it's your
first love Island that you'vewatched.

Yes, we were doing.
Love Island USA is the firstseason I've ever watched and I
think so far it is stupid butwith a couple.

What do you?
What do you think is stupid?
I mean not, no, do you?
What do you think is stupid?
I mean not, no, but what do youthink is stupid about it?

okay, at first, the first few episodes
I watched, I was like horrifiedby how shallow these people
were.

I I've since come around on many of them,
right, because of the bachelor.

People are just, you know, there's so
much depth no, I think there ismore depth on the bachelor than
on love island by like an orderof magnitude, and that's, that's
really saying something.
Because do I think there's aton of depth on the bachelor?
Not necessarily, but the, the,the lack of depth on love island
is like astounding.
But I, I once again like I do,I think, um, the people are not

(03:48):
quite as despicable as I thoughtin the very beginning, um, and
I kind of like some of them,like alandria and shelly, uh,
and that might be it, what theyare amazing yeah, yeah, um, then
my biggest complaint was thatnothing happened for 12 straight

(04:09):
episodes and I could not figureout why the show had staying
power.
Then the 13th episode was likeamazing, and there were like a
couple of real bangers in therethat like hooked me and I was
like, oh, okay, I'm getting thisa little bit more.
And now I'm struggling with theconcept of the show, like I

(04:31):
don't really.
I don't really get it.
I don't get what the goal is.

I think the goal is really the same with the
bachelor.
I think the goal is that weneed a modern Coliseum.
I think that we used to have astone structure where we threw
in Christians and people wedidn't like into an arena and
threw some monsters at them andjust gleefully shot in Freud and

(05:01):
watched.

I do think that is actually as good
of a metaphor as we're going toget, I mean.
But here's the differencebetween the Bachelor and Love
Island and really every othershow I've ever seen.
On Love Island, the Bachelor,the goal of the show is to be in
a relationship.
On Love Island, I cannot figureout what the goal of the show

(05:24):
is, because people keep gettingpunished for being in
relationships.
So are they supposed to staysingle?
But then if they stay single,they're also sent home.
So are they supposed to be incouples where they, like, are
getting to know that person butthen also explore and like lean
into the show?
No, because those people arealso getting sent home.
So I can't figure out how youget to the end.

(05:46):
What are you supposed to beaiming for?

so I love love island.
I, okay, I think you need toreally understand it, to really
do a deep dive and understandthe show at the roots.
You have to watch the originalLove Island UK and I don't know
if it's original or original,but on Hulu there's like old

(06:10):
classic season one, season twoand it was before the age of
influencers and it didn't seemlike anyone knew what the show
was all about and you just watchpeople go nuts.
Not only do you have the nuts ofjust competitive dating while

(06:32):
you're always in a bikini andalways probably dehydrated, but
you really got to watch peoplego insane from cabin fever.
You felt it all Like it reallywas.
Like the beginning you couldfeel that they're so excited and
nervous and they're becomingfriends.

(06:53):
And then they become superclose as a group.
You know they become like bestfriends and like ride or die.
And then when people get rippedaway through voting or, you
know, dumping from the Island,you feel that loss.
And then at some point yourealize that these people have
not left this house for I don'tknow whatever.

(07:14):
It is like six weeks and theystart to get kind of weird.
They they're, you know, theythey get obsessive with people
who are normally, you know,mentally healthy, I guess, and
then at the end you could seethat there's like a finish line
where it's just kind of likelet's, let's pair up, make a

(07:35):
good story out of our pair andtry to win this.
And at the end they used to doall these kind of prisoner
dilemma games where it was likethey would give the winning
couple who's rooted by america.
They give the winning couple a,like you know, a potential
prize of fifty thousand dollars.
But then, you had to.

(07:55):
You had to say whether you wantto keep it or split it with the
other person, and I forgotexactly.
I think there's all thesedifferent permutations, but you
had to say that you would splitit with the other person for
them actually to get the moneyand then so it's kind of like
are they really?
In for love or the money.

Yeah, you know um, from bachelor pad,
just so you know.
Oh, I mean that's from somebodyelse, but exactly, I think
that's older than love Island,though Like by a lot.

Maybe I mean I well, I mean the UK verse.
Anyway, I think it's just beenfascinating because it just
feels like an aquarium of arelationships right Like the
bachelor is so centered on thisone person.

Right.

And and it's a little bit more like a
Bachelor in Paradise kind offeeling where but you would get
this like closed ecosystem of anew friend group and every
season has had a different pulsebecause of the group, whether
they get along, whether there'sa huge bromance, whether there's
like really strong, likeromantic couple, and,
interestingly, most of the oneswho are like strong from the

(09:04):
beginning are not the ones whowin.
It's usually a like kind of aredemption story where, um, I'm
not going to give it away, butthe first season of the uk it's
like the messiest girl, the onewho's like the disaster, and you
just felt for her because shewas just like an dysregulated
mess.
I loved her so much, she was sounfiltered and she had such

(09:28):
like colossal dumps and breakupsand being, you know, like
cheated on and everything.
And she finally found someonetowards the end and she won
right and and there was anothercouple who was like very much in
love the whole time and they.
So it just is a little bit moreabout like watching someone go

(09:48):
through the trials andtribulations of dating within
this like crazy closed system.
And yeah, that's the goal, Ithink.

I guess what I'm saying is, if I went
on this show, I would have noidea how to win Like literally
none.
I'd be like the only person onthis show I think the most
fascinating character on thisshow, I think the most
fascinating character on thisshow is ace.
I think he is the only one withany kind of strategy get into
some kind of winning strategy.

I want to hear what you think of the
strategy his strategy is.
But the weird thing, I don'tthink they do this as much with
with america.
They did this in the uk, whereit was like there was a live
audience watching outside thevilla and there was like there
was like way more voting, likeeach week you voted for
something, whether it's votingfor like the worst couple or the

(10:35):
worst girl or whatever, orsometimes there was just like
events where they read Twitter,like tweets about them, like
that are happening live.
So there was a lot more of likeawareness that the world was
watching them.
Yeah.

So what I will hand?

just love it.

Love Island has to be the most
sadistic show I've.

I've ever seen.

It's not the most cynical.
The most cynical show I'm goingto hand to Temptation Island or
the Ultimatum, because thoseare shows that pretend like
they're about love but actuallythey're about showing that
people are so incredibly famehungry and shallow and attention
seeking that they will quiteliterally undermine their
relationship by throwing agrenade into it and then

(11:23):
crossing their fingers thatmaybe they'll make it out to the
other end.
Like that's cynicism.
This show is sadistic with theamerica votes thing, the whole
like I'm sorry that your countrydoesn't like you.
So, even though, huda, you arein a very strong relationship
with jeremiah thus far, youmight have to go home because

(11:46):
America thinks you're gross.
Sorry, like that is fucked up,I would.

before we watched this, I watched the last
season of squid games and I wasjust you know just the same
reaction as probably everyonewere like oh, that's so
disgusting.
These people, these, you know,it's depicting this like this
wealthy class.
That's so disgusting.
These people, these, you know,it's depicting this like this
wealthy class of people who justliterally make people play
games, like make desperatepeople play games to their death

(12:13):
and they're like and then I waswatching this I was like this
is, this is real life.
So yeah, it is sadistic, but Ithink I think we wanted to talk
about this episode or at leastthis show, because I do think
that this season out of more,more seasons I've seen, they've

(12:34):
it shows like pretty interestingrelationship dynamics.
A lot of these people areactually more emotionally
intelligent and communicativethan I've seen other seasons
where it just has been likescreaming disasters.

There's some people.

There were a lot of people who seem very like
Alandria and Shelley and, Ithink, ace too, that you're like
, oh, they actually like,they're reasonable people,
they're just, you know, they'rekind or they're thoughtful or
they're doing a thing, but it, Ithink, because we've been
talking so much in these pastfew episodes about like the
pursue, withdraw dynamic andcoming into relationships with

(13:16):
anxious attachment.
Anxious attachment and corebeliefs about being broken or
unlovable.
It's making me watch this showfrom that lens and I'm like, oh,
we really are seeing that likein full technicolor, literally
technicolor lights in the showyeah, I mean it's interesting

(13:37):
some like therapy speak has comein, but not seemingly in a
manipulative way, necessarilylike.

It seems like some kind of
expectations.
Maybe you know um developedfrom like therapy or the
zeitgeist being like much moreabout healthy relationships and
communication shit has come in,so love bombing, a lot of talk
about love bombing right.
So that has come in to destroythe show by making everybody

(14:05):
kind of effective at gettingalong.
Who should we start with?
Jeremiah and Huda, or someoneelse?

Let's start with Ace.
Ace and Amaya.
Just because Huda and Jeremiah,we need to get in there.
Dedicate, yeah, but Ace isinteresting.
My husband also finds Aceinteresting.
I found him well, I think Alexactually is similar to Ace in

(14:40):
the way he moves aboutrelationships, because I had
this reaction of like yes, lookat all the terrible things he's
doing.
And he was like, oh, like youknow, that makes sense.
It makes sense why he said thathe's very straightforward.
Why are they upset?
And I'm like so what do youthink what?
What do you think about Ace andhis, his strategy?

I think that Ace is the smartest person
person on the show.
It's interesting because he wasso sought after right away and
he doesn't seem like he has themarkers of somebody that people
would go for, like he looks veryyoung to me and like short, for
instance, and so for the firstseveral episodes I was like what

(15:19):
is going on?
Like why are all of these womendying over Ace?
And then I watched more and Iwas like I get it.
I think Ace has somethingapproaching true confidence,
meaning he doesn't seem to beputting it on, he's never trying
too hard.
He gives you this sense throughhis like calm and through his

(15:41):
communication that he's got ithandled and that and that makes
women relax, like if men can dothat, they can get any woman
they want.
So I think that's his appeal.
I think what I can't tell ifhe's actually secretly insecure
or if he is just extremelystrategic and trying to win the

(16:01):
show is he is undermined.
He is okay because he has thisquality.
It's not just the women who arefalling for it, it's also the
men.
So he is like the ringleader ofthese guys and they seem to be
doing whatever he says.
He got jeremiah voted off andjeremiah had more.

(16:22):
Yeah, he did.
America didn't rank Jeremiah inthe top and then, because of
Ace's little like buzzing aroundin people's ears and talking to
them about how Jeremiah wasn'ttruly like giving the show a
chance, he wasn't trulyexploring, he got kicked off.
This Jeremiah is the onlyperson you could argue that he's

(16:44):
taking this show more seriouslythan anybody else.
He had a legit connection withHuda for a very long time.
Then he broke it off when hesaw that she was acting crazy
and then he started zeroing inon another girl and Ace made
that out to be a problem.
That Jeremiah is actually ableto connect with people and form

(17:06):
relationships.

He's like he's not exploring enough um,
although it aced a drop, I mean,I think, in when they talked
about it there there are somehints that that seem really
fishy for jeremiah, as if hisstrategy was to go after the
most desperate, the most like,willing to lock down and like,

(17:30):
just like lock down with them.

What evidence was he?
He dumped her.
He dumped her very quickly.
And then this other chickwasn't desperate whatsoever.
She came in and everybodywanted her and he it was 24
hours that he had with that girl, like how can you accuse him of
being strategic?
And like what if he just wasattracted to her?

on that set.
I mean, I know the dynamics ofthe Bachelor on the set from you
and from some of your friends,but, like, are the producers
around?
Like all you know is that thisis cut so quickly, right?
You have like hours and hoursof them hanging out on the beach
and then the episodes have tobe cut within like what, a week
or two.
Are there producers there?
Are they feeding them questions?
Are they being like what'sgoing on?

(18:32):
So I wonder if Ace had someweird thing with Jeremiah where
he could sense that Jeremiah was, you know, angling for
something.
There was this moment where, inthe beginning, when he was
dating Huda, jeremiah saidsomething like, yeah, and if we
win this, we're probably goingto win this the full thing.
Like he talked about winningearly and I so we don't know if
ace is like you know had somekind of you know, saw that or

(18:56):
was just just didn't like him orsaw that he was a legitimate
threat.
But I think that's interesting,that you're.
You're right that ace reallylike went after that that couple
and I just successfullydisbanded it.

Very successful, yeah, I like I'm
interested to keep watching himthrough the season because he
seems like he's got his littlefingers and everybody's little
pies and has comments for all ofthem, which to me seems
insecure, like I think thetruest confidence on the show is
pepe, who is my favoritefavorite.
But Pepe is like in his ownlane.
He, you know, I don't thinkyou've seen this scene yet, but

(19:29):
a bunch of new chicks come inand a bunch of new dudes come in
and they swap.
Oh, I haven't seen that yet.
Well, anyway, whatever, all thenew chicks have to kiss the man
while they're blindfolded and hethey have to rate them and he
gives everyone a 10, which isjust nice.
It's maybe not interesting butlike, come on, you've got a
bunch of women coming on and hewas more interested in making
sure that they didn't feelinsecure and that they felt, you

(19:51):
know, like good about thisvulnerable thing that they had
to do versus other men were like, I'll give it like a six and a
five, not enough tongue, I don'tknow.
I didn't really feel thatpassion to me.
It just just like you guys aresuch fucking losers.
But anyway, ace is veryinteresting to me because he
seems to be able to get anythinghe wants at his own pace and

(20:15):
there is a history.
Everything seem reasonable theway he says it yeah, yeah.

So for one thing, there is a history on the
show of a character like that.
So there's often in someseasons I'm thinking especially
the first one there is a guysomehow.
He's usually short, like Kemwas another one on a different
season, but there's usually aguy who has the personality who
drives the bros.

(20:40):
He's kind of like the I don'twant to say the alpha, but the
alpha in the sense of in thisworld, the out, what makes you
alpha is not there's one,there's a.
There's usually a guy who'severyone likes right, the one
you come, come in, everyonethinks is hot.
But then there's a guy who'sthe ringleader, and usually
they're the most sociallyintelligent.
So that's what makes you alphain this world, is to basically

(21:02):
work the room, so to speak, andace, you're right, this
confidence, this calm confidence.
He's not jittery, he's notshaky, he says what he, he feels
, but it's.
It was interesting.
I remember noticing him with amaya at first, like for the
weird reason he picked a maya.

(21:22):
And then what immediately waslike I'm a slow burn, don't't,
don't, don't show me anyaffection Don't touch me.
And that was a reallyinteresting example.
That was like a microcosm ofthe pursue withdraw dynamic.
That was like amplified withHoda and Jeremiah.
But Ace would be like he's, ofcourse, the withdrawer right,

(21:43):
like he sits back literally.
You see the videos of him andany girl he's talking to and
he's leaning back, but yet hisbody language is back, but his
eyes are are focused on the girl.
And he's like you could tellhe's super engaged and slow and
like nods and ask questions butyet keeps himself away.

(22:06):
So that's, that was such aninteresting thing, that that
that balance, and he picked, he.
He does this kind of like smallcat and mouse where he picks
Amaya and then, immediatelyafter he picks her, he goes.
Hey, I want to let you know I'ma slow burn and, to her credit,
I know that we have feelingsabout amaya um, that she, to her

(22:29):
credit, she did a really goodjob of being emotionally
vulnerable, which is kind ofimpressing me about this whole
cast, like she was, just like Ikind of wish you set this
tomorrow.
You kind of burst my bubble.
I was just on cloud ninebecause you picked me and now.
Now I feel like crap, yeah,yeah and and he it's interesting
, he did this a couple times,but he, he sounds validating and

(22:51):
reasonable, but he still stayswithdrawn and closed and it was
so, it's so.
I don't want to use the wordgaslighting, but I think these
are the moments that people feelare you know when, when, when
people do this as gaslighting,because it's like leaning in
while staying out.
So, she goes.
I'm just like, I'm really hurtright now.

(23:11):
She starts crying and he goes.
Thank you so much for tellingme that.
I appreciate you sharing meyour feelings.
I didn't want to hurt yourfeelings, that's it.
And I was like, oh, I was like,I was like, oh, wow, he's so,
he's so, you know, open and kind.
I mean I'm like, but he justleft her hanging.

(23:32):
He did not say no, I really dolike you, I'm really excited.
Like he didn't add in anyreassurance, he just validated,
thanked her for being vulnerableand said I didn't want you to
be upset, vulnerable, and said Ididn't want you to be upset.
But here you are, upset.

I was like damn the boldness.

And then he kept doing that with her.
He said I don't like it whenyou call me babe.
And she was like you could seeher getting riled up, and every
time she would get emotionallyriled up he would further drop
back.
He would further be like okay,so she's pursuing, like hey,
you're making me feel insecure.

(24:11):
I'm out here feeling vulnerablewith you, and usually you're
you know that expecting theother person to kind of like
comfort you or be there with you, but he just stays back there
with you, but he just stays back.

Yeah, yeah, so clever.
Well, it was interesting towatch because it's she was so
set up.
You know, he's basically sayingI have boundaries, and she
responds from a place of likeokay, but your boundaries seem
to suggest something about yourinterest in me, which they did
in in many ways, um, because Idon't know that he would have
those same boundaries withshelby.
And so she.

(24:49):
She then reacts from a point oflike, oh, like I just came on
this show, I was riding high,and now you burst my bubble and
I'm being honest about that, andhe, he doesn't have to reassure
her.
You know that's not necessarilyhis job, but of course then
she's like okay, well, how do Ieven engage in this relationship
?
And then he's like you can'tcall me babe.

(25:11):
And she, she just uses the wordbabe with everybody, which so
many people do, like peoplegetting on her ass about this.
It's so stupid, but whatever.
Then every time she says it,she gets crazier and crazier in
her own head and it's like.
You know he doesn't have toapologize for having boundaries,
but I think so much of the timewhen we communicate boundaries,

(25:35):
sometimes we or when we getupset about something.
It's really something elsethat's under the surface and the
other person's picking up onthat, like I think the same
thing happened with Hood andJeremiah and the pancakes, but
we'll get there.
But yeah, I mean, you know, shedid start behaving really
ineffectively and at a certainpoint he shut it down.
He's like let me be crystalclear with you, and that was

(25:58):
effective.
But it also left me with a sourtaste in my mouth because she
wasn't wrong necessarily.
He picked her and thenimmediately pushed her away for
the entire duration they weretogether without giving her any
kind of credit for her feelings.

I do wonder if that was a move like a
strategy of like not pickingShelly right away, or just like
keeping Amaya in the game forsome reason.
But yeah, and then you watchAmaya just like go nuts, and
that you know that pursuerwithdraw dynamic that we've
talked about, where this is aweird scenario, because it's a
scenario where he was clearlytrying to reject her right.

He wasn't into her.

But this also happens in couples where both
people actually like each other,but one person's response to
conflict or disconnection iswithdrawing, avoiding and
staying quiet, and the otherperson is to pursue and push and
demand Right, and so she's likewhat do I do, like what's going
on, and so you could see heramp up and he drops back even

(27:00):
more.
Ace is a really good example ofhow we just kind of gone
haywire with the word boundaries.
I feel like as another one ofthose social media words, the
pop psych words that have likespread like wildfire, like all
we, I mean, I'm so guilty of it.
How do we set boundaries?
How do we it's okay to haveboundaries Protect your peace,

(27:22):
speak out, say it out loud.
You know boundaries are healthyand they are.
But I think that we lump a lotof different things into
boundaries, and Ace shows thisreally well.
Like he goes you're notrespecting my boundaries.
Now, his boundary was just likedon't call me babe.
Boundary was just like don'tcall me babe.
But a boundary, like in the realdefinition of it, should be a

(27:54):
guideline of what should we doin different situations, Like
what do we want?
Instead, here is a boundary ofbehaviors that I find acceptable
and behaviors that I don't findacceptable.
So if he should, if he shoulddo it correctly and kindly, he
should set boundaries.
Like you know, I really feeluncomfortable when being called
babe so early on.
Do you mind calling me ace ordo you mind, um, showing me you

(28:18):
care in this other way?
Or I just want to clarify whenyou mean babe, do you mean that
you're seeing me as a boyfriend,right, like so, just giving her
some guidance of what he wantsinstead, instead him being like
I don't like it when you do.
This is a really good exampleof how people are taking
boundaries to say like it's okayif I tell you what I don't like

(28:41):
and what you do well, I mean itis okay, but it felt like a
willful misrepresentation of whyshe was doing that, and so it.

It wound up feeling more
controlling than anything.
Don't use that word that youuse very frequently with men and
women.
It's setting her up to failinstantly.

Yeah, yeah.
And as you're saying, like he'ssaying I don't want to lock
down so early, I don't want toact like we're boyfriend and
girlfriend and if that's whatyou call boyfriend and
girlfriend, like I don't, I'mnot comfortable with that, right
, but then it should bedispelled.
When she says I call everyonebabe, I call my boyfriends babe,

(29:23):
but I also call everyone elsebabe, he should be like yeah,
okay, like it.
Just.
I just was.
I just wanted to clarify, youknow your expectations about
this, about this relationship.

I mean, it's sticky because you are
allowed to not like behaviorfrom another person, but I think
saying like these are myboundaries, don't be yourself.
It's just, it's difficultterritory, I don't.
You know, these are myboundaries, you need to speak
and you need to use a differentlexicon.
It's like I don't know you cansay I don't really like it, but
I understand, that's how youtalk.

(29:54):
Just you know I have this otherpreference.
But to say like you're breakingmy boundary by using your
normal word choice is a littlebit suspicious.

Okay, we should get into the, the huda,
jeremiah stuff, because I don'tthink I do.
I definitely don't think onlove island you locking down and
being serious with someone isnecessarily a bad thing.
In in all the seasons I've seen, usually there's one or two
couples that met in thebeginning, went strong, love

(30:22):
each other and like, made it allthe way through.
That is totally an okay thingto do, but the Huda and Jeremiah
situation did look weird.

What looked weird?
I mean, I have my own opinions,but what looked weird to you?

I think at the beginning, I mean it's, I
think it just had this flair ofanxious attachment.
I don't know what side, itlooked more on Huda's side, but
it looked on both sides, wherethey were like we're going to be
here until the end, right,we're going to.
You're my person, right, I'mnever going to explore.
I'm never going to explore.

(30:57):
Usually there, even in theworld of Love Island, there is a
little bit of a pacing of weare connecting.
Oh wait, let's get serious,right.
There is like a couple episodesor a couple weeks where they're
like enjoying each other'scompany and then at some point
they like ask to be boyfriendand girlfriend or admit to each
other they don't want to exploreany other connection.

(31:17):
But this was like week one.
Phew, we found the person whowants this too.
Oh, my God, let's.
And then there was so much,especially in the beginning.
There's so much testing andreassurance seeking.
I mean, we talked about this.
Like, what was the last episodeof like anxious attachment and

(31:39):
reassurance seeking?
I was just watching it.
Like, did you bring me thepancakes?
Did you say this?
Did you say that?
Um, this just setting up tests.
Is Jeremiah in this?
Is he in this?
You normally put your hands onme, you look upset and are not
talking to me about it.
This must mean that you don'tlove me and don't trust me.

(32:01):
Right?
It was like everything that hedid that she didn't like was a
sign of possible rejection.
It just felt to me like a corebelief, like she walked in,
being like I'm afraid of beingrejected and left and abandoned.
So it's like I found a guy whoreally likes me and I'm going to
make sure with every singlemoment that he is reassuring me

(32:24):
that he's going nowhere.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that
necessarily.
I mean, I I have some caveatsto it.
But I also just want to pointout that Hannah also got sent
home for zeroing in.
So it's not just Jeremiah thatgot sent home and, like Huda,
that's been on the choppingblock Like, and then Ace was all
upset when the girls sentHannah home, but they sent her
home with the same logic thathe'd used to send Jeremiah home.

(32:47):
So I just this thing keepscoming up with, like multiple
people do.
I think that Huda isdemonstrating an anxious
attachment to Jeremiah.
Yes, but I also just want tothrow in that I feel like part
of what happened was, as soon asshe told him she's a mom, he
took a giant emotional step backand started looking for any

(33:11):
reasons to not be in her anymore, and I think she picked up on
that and then got anxious.

Because as soon as she-.
Give me examples, because thepancake thing thing, let's talk
about the pancake thing first ofall.
Can you tell me exactly?
I didn't actually see that part, I just saw the fallout.
Can you describe to me thepancake situation?

yeah, I mean, I thought that was mostly
on her.
Um, it seemed like he made hera pancake.
It wasn't fully cooked, she hadto redo the pancake.
Some other guy helped her.
He was checked out somewhere Idon't know, and she was like,
how could you let another man?
I mean, yeah, that that soundscrazy.
But he had started picking onher where she, the way she would

(33:53):
talk to him, which, in fairness, was annoying to me too, but he
hadn't noticed any issue withit until she said that she was a
mother.
She'd be like, oh, like goodjob, you did such a good job.
And he was like it's like, it'slike I'm your kid, like that
specific, that specific languageshowed me that he likely had a
big pivot in his brain and waslike, oh, this is like way more

(34:17):
intense and like, not you know,paradisy, like I was hoping,
like I, this is, this is not acasual, this is not something
that can necessarily go at mypace.
Ending up with her means beinga dad, like anybody would take a
step back from that.
But he acted as if he told herthat he wasn't.

(34:39):
But then he started noticingthings and getting irritated
with her, and then she started,I mean getting irritated with
her.
And then she started I mean, Ithink she's a sensitive person.
She started picking up on thatand at first it would be like
kind of like, oh okay, but thenthey kept piling up and then the
pancake thing happened.
And at this point I think she'slooking for evidence and then
she's seeing oh, all these otherguys are like doing sweet

(35:00):
things for their girlfriends,but Jeremiah and I are the
strongest couple and he's notdoing anything for me.
And she's getting anxious,right and like she's starting to
blame him for shit.
And then he's backing away,saying that's unfair, and then
it just unravels.

To be clear, what she is picking on is that
he made a pancake and she didn'tlike it, and then he didn't fix
it right away and someone elsegave her a pancake I mean that
was insane.

yeah, like I think there's also, but
we also weren't there.
I mean I could kind of seeevery, you know, all of these
people like clearly, breakfastis a ritual where the men show
that they value their lady bymaking her a beautiful breakfast
.
And she gets this breakfastthat has been undercooked and

(35:48):
she's already insecure, and then, who knows, maybe he really was
just kind of wandering aroundwatching her like recook
something, and another guynotices and he comes in and
starts helping her and she'sjust kind of like what the hell?
We didn't see it.
In other words, what gotexplained was insane.

It's interesting what you said about
the mom thing.
I didn't really pick up on thattimeline.
I have to go back and look.
But I also felt thisclaustrophobia of like every
Jeremiah just seemed to be ahardcore withdrawer, like he
said several times in those highintensity moments he didn't

(36:25):
come to comfort her when she wasalmost voted off.
He, he, he.
What he responds to to intenseemotional situations with
withdrawal and avoidance andfreeze, like the guys were, you
know, gave him shit for lockingin or like saying that they
don't, they doubt hisrelationship, and then he like
sulks and like hangs his headlike a peanuts character.

(36:47):
And then she's like why are you, why are you like this?
Like, why are you, why aren'tyou talking to me?
And he's like I need some timeto process, I need space, which
is a classic withdrawer thing tosay.
Some people just need to likein response to intense emotions
or conflict, they just go insideand they just need some space.
And that's what's interestingabout the show is that they

(37:10):
don't have space.
Literally, they're likeshowering and sleeping with the
whole group.
So if you are the kind ofperson who needs like a moment
to chill, you're screwed.

You're absolutely screwed in that world
.
Yeah, but you also, as theperson who needs a moment to
chill, you also need tosacrifice that need sometimes
because Of course, if I wereHuda Because you go on a dating
show where there's like 78cameras of course.
Well, yeah, if I were Huda and,look, I also find her
claustrophobic and, you know,kind of off-putting in various

(37:43):
ways she's grown on me a littlebit after the breakup.
I think she handled some thingswell, so that's why I'm
defensive of her.
If I were Huda and America justtried to vote me off even
though I was in a strong couple,and then I almost got I almost
had to leave the island where Iwas falling for a guy and then

(38:05):
that guy did not come and talkto me about it, I would be
fucking livid.
So I felt like that was prettyjustified.
Her, the way she responded wasobviously ineffective, but like
what a shitty thing to do.
I mean, that was so humiliatingfor her and the whole.

(38:26):
Like the whole the strongestconnection she had there didn't
come and be like I'm so sorry,your country hates you like I
mean here's, here's, you'rebuying into the hood of core
belief, of unlovable insecurity.

So even just watching all of that and I don't
know, I don't know what's real.
Maybe her core beliefs are truein those moments and confirmed
in those moments, I really sawthat she was projecting a lot of
these insecurities onto.
Like of these moments like Idon't know the pancake thing or
whatever she's like, oh, hedoesn't like me, or oh, he's a

(39:07):
bitch and a liar, and it couldbe just be like, oh, he's kind
of lazy, or oh, he doesn'treally respond to conflict well,
or anything like that.
Or even the whole them gettingvoted like.
Basically, what happened wasamerica voted for iris, the new
bombshell, to be matched up, tobe recoupled with jeremiah, and
huda almost got kicked offbecause of that right.

(39:29):
So it was a recoupling plus andalmost almost dumping.
Now the issue, which is thedeath of people with anxious
attachment, is that it was a themost brutal rejection you could
ever get from America.
That is ambiguous.
So you were, she was rejected,or something terrible happened

(39:54):
and she didn't know why.
So it wasn't clear.
It's still not clear to me whathappened.
Did people vote because theydidn't like Hoda, or they didn't
like jeremiah or they didn'tlike them together.
And in that space ofuncertainty she went crazy.
And not only went crazy, butyou could watch her turn her

(40:14):
mind from like I'm rejected, I'mlike what's going on?
I'm so confused to like he's alittle bitch and it's all his
fault and he's the toxic one,right?

she goes.

That was no good, that was bad.
Yeah, I mean like that, like inthat space of like uncertainty,
she really just like you couldsee that it went full-on.
Like she, at some point she waslike I'm putting this, I'm
putting the pieces together.
He sucks and I'm like, okay,but you don't know why, like you
don't like maybe, maybe that'sa case where I agree.

I agree with the part where she then
turned it on him and that wasfucked up, but I also do think
it was because america hated herjust as a viewer.
As a viewer, I wanted them tobreak up and for her to go home.
You know, so it.
So it's kind of like, uh, likeI don't know, if that happened
to me, I would find it very,very and I do not have anxious

(41:07):
attachment I would find it very,very difficult to come to any
other kind of conclusion.

Yeah, I think I mean as a human being in that
in the Coliseum of love.
I don't blame her for goingnuts, right.
However, it really wasinteresting when you watch her
go.
She really seems to walk inwith a belief that men won't

(41:34):
show up for you and they'regoing to leave you.
Because she locks in withJeremiah instead of enjoying it
and relaxing and maybe just kindof feeling him out.
Maybe he has some qualities thatshe's not into.
Like he doesn't make herpancakes in the way that she,
whatever she's like do you likeme?
Do you like me?
Why aren't you talking to melike this?
Why aren't you talking to me?

(42:09):
And then, as soon as she getsthe rejection, her mind comes
completely like well, see, he'sa bitch and I need to leave him
and he's a toxic one.
So it's.
It's like she just comes inwith this hugely negative core
belief of how relationships aregoing to go, instead of being
like I don't know why americavoted this way and it's driving
me insane and I'll never knowthe answer but like clearly our
dynamic is toxic.
Right, this is more the case ofwhat happens with couples is
like the combination of peoplecreates powder kegs like the

(42:31):
like their dynamic was toxic.
Whatever was going on, they,they were contributing to what
was going on.

Yes, but she's the one that almost
got kicked off and he didn't, soit felt more personal to her.
Whatever, she clearly handledit terribly.
But I'm just saying the factthat he didn't come and comfort
her, that was a bitch move, likethat was unacceptable.
And then her response was alsounacceptable.

So at that point you're like, oh, thank god
they're breaking up like thisis oh, if anything he was,
whether he was angling for thewin or not, like maybe he was in
it for the wrong reasons andmaybe that's maybe the locking
in too early is their code forin it for the wrong reasons.
But I mean, if anything,jeremiah is very impressionable.

(43:16):
I mean, you know like she'slike, you know like you're going
to be my boyfriend.
He was like okay, I'm yourboyfriend.
And then the guys were like Ithink your relationship is weird
.
And he's just there, like youknow, and then just like anyone
says something strong to him andhe's like totally thrown off.

(43:36):
So yeah, he might have not hadthe initiative and the
confidence that she was lookingfor.
But you know like he justseemed like a little bit of a
you know wuss, like yeah,manipulate oh wow.

So here we are at Hood.

Aside, I wouldn't say Hood Aside.
I would say that her coming inwith this intense, and maybe
it's because of the mom thing,maybe it's because she she must
have experienced shit loads ofrejection.
Yeah, she came in, like I mean,in other shows and reality shows
that we've seen, people withkids have come in saying that I

(44:17):
mean they might wait, butthey're usually kind of excited
and like saying I can't wait toshare this with you.
But she was very clearly like Idon't want to tell people.
I'm going to tell peoplesecretly, one by one, and you
know, because I'm afraid ofgetting rejected.

So maybe, maybe when she opened up
that door like she was on mydollars and securities.
Yeah, she was on Love Island.
I mean, I just think it isdifferent to tell somebody on a
show where the median age is 23.
And they're there to dotwerking competitions, that
you're a mom versus married atfirst sight, right, or the
Bachelor or whatever, which isall about commitment, so, but

(44:55):
yeah, I mean, look, I mean she's.
She's clearly insecure.
What I do think was valiant,though, was that, after she
almost truly got sent home butthey sent Jaden home instead
Taylor and Alandria were likeyou've got to stop talking about
this, and she did two thingsthat I thought were admirable.
One is that she did not stoptalking about it right away.

(45:18):
Instead, she went and had aclosure conversation with
Jeremiah, which I think shehandled okay, and I think that
was a good idea.
And two, she actually then didstop talking about it.
I would not have been able tostop talking about it, I think,
24 hours after almost gettingvoted off, and the guy that I
was just quote unquote seriouslydating I mean in this, you know

(45:40):
realm like, like stood behindjaden, like wanted me to get
voted off, like, and I it wasonce again humiliated by america
, like I would not be able toshut the fuck up about that for
like at least a week.
And she, she shut the fuck up,okay, fuck fair, okay, fair.

In the Love Island world things move very
fast and actually they seem tobe more persistent and obsessive
than typical.
But it's maybe the way it's cut.
It's so quick turnaround thatyou don't have a lot of unless

(46:25):
you're like really into thatperson and want to.
You know like date around soyou could actually get back to
that original couple.
You don't have a lot of time toruminate over that person.
She was aware that america andher friends were sick and tired
of this drama, so she knew,either from like emotionally or
you know from the strategy ofthe game, that if she kept going

(46:46):
on this no one's gonna like shewill get voted off.
Yeah, and people are beingthrown in all the time.
You gotta like lick your woundsand get back on the dating like
you know, the next morning.

I understand that.
But she was passionate enoughto march up and down the length
of the villa screaming you're abitch, for like 20 straight
minutes.
Okay, like she cared, thisbitch cared I.
When I was now, granted, I was18, but that's not that much
younger than Huda when I was aRotary exchange student, I went

(47:19):
on a trip to Greece and Italywith the other exchange students
and I met a guy named Kike.
He was Mexican and I gave himmy first blowjob and we were a
couple all through the Greecepart of the trip, okay, and then
I have no idea why, he switchedto Bruna, the Brazilian, and

(47:44):
and it was humiliating, and Icried.
Well, no, I tried to put onbrave face, but I did cry a
little bit.
When we went to Pompeii, Iguess I did put on a pretty
brave face.
But the point is, when you aredumped and rejected in a
humiliating fashion and then youthen have to go and watch that
person make new connections andhang around right across from

(48:05):
you, I would, at the very least,be hiding under the covers like
, I think, she.
I just think it was a valianteffort.

I think it was impressive I mean it's
valiant to go on the show.
I mean it takes guts toliterally wear a bikini in front
of america for like eight weeksstraight and desperately try to
get someone to like you.
I mean.
I mean the bikinis leavenothing to the imagination.

(48:39):
I mean, at this point it seemsthat culture has our society has
said all we need to do is coverthe top of your ass, crack and
and and and.
You know we're, we don't needthat.
You know privacy bar on tv,like you can.
It's fine to show the wholebutt anyway, the whole butt I it
.
I don't know if it's because Iwatched so much love island or

(49:01):
because it's, I don't know.
There's something I haveobsessive dreams about summer
camp.
Have I told you about this?
Literally every dream I have issome sort of summer camp kind
of feeling, where we're in aresort or we're in a literally a
summer camp by the lake, orthere's just some idea of like a

(49:22):
self-contained ecosystem of agroup of people and usually, as
is pretty typical of my messedup psyche, I'm like it's the end
of the trip.
I'm so scared to loseeverything.
But yet I have a task and it'san impossible task and I have to
run through the hallways or therooms or the people to try to

(49:46):
solve that task, and I can neverdo it.
Well, that sounds like a lot ofpsyche and I know that it's
something about like either Ihave to get on a train or a
plane to get out of there orI'll never get to come back.
There's something about theending of it that feels so
threatening, and maybe it'sbecause that in our society we

(50:08):
grow up literally going tosummer camp, going to school,
going to college, going to gradschool and then adulthood is
just nothing Like.
You don't have any of this selfcontained social world ever
again.
I mean, especially with remoteworking, you go from being in a
pod like on a love Island kindof world to like being literally

(50:31):
by yourself.
I mean, this podcast isprobably the most like dedicated
social interaction I have,except for with my family, can.
I tell you about my dream lastnight.

Yeah, okay, it was also.
It was also in a little bit notsummer camp, but it was like an
old school university likeoxford.
Anyway, that's not really thatrelevant to the story.
What is relevant is um jason'swife came back from the dead and
he had to choose between uswhat did he choose in your dream
?

(51:06):
I woke up before it happened,but what I do remember.
So, first of all, actually,apparently, she had come and
knocked on my door and myroommate had told her that I
wasn't home, even though I was,so that was.
I don't know what that wasabout, but then I walked in on
them cuddling and I had.
I was like, oh God, I guess Ishould give you guys privacy, my
fiance, I guess I should giveyou guys privacy.
So I like left for a while andthen he called, like a mutual

(51:29):
friend of ours and who doesn'texist.
It was a dream friend and, um,he was like doing pros and cons
and he was like well, one thingis that you know, heidi has more
money, so her style is moresophisticated, which is
definitely not true.
I have great style.
Um, and then at one point Iknow I was considering throwing

(51:51):
in the towel and just being likeI can't, I can't compete with
someone who has come back fromthe dead for you.
So you know she's your originalwife.
So I don't think I actually gotto.
I think I woke up first, butisn't that terrible.
Then I texted Jason about itand you know what he didn't say.
He didn say don't worry.
Of course I would choose youover my dead wife, the ace move.

Instead did he thank you for sharing.

He said you and your dreams baby.
And then he said I'm glad yougave me friends in your dreams,
something like that, because hedoesn't have any friends in real
life.
It's like I like that I havefriends in your dream.

They'll be like, but uh yeah, sweet jason,
you have the best fiancee.
Um see, love island creeps intoour dreams.
Yeah, and the the, the idea ofhaving to like the social norms
around, having to pretend thatyou have to be cool with the guy
that you're coupled up with,like, like exploring other

(52:49):
options and you know, beautifulcushioned areas, yeah, right,
next to you, I mean, it's sointeresting.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, actually that's
pretty.
Yeah, that's kind of directGosh.

Yeah.
And then the social, likenormal life.
If you saw your well normallife, when you see your husband,
you know, or your fiancecuddling with his dead ex-wife,
you'd be like, oh my God, likethere's a miracle on earth.
But then you would also be like, what, how could you do this?
But in Love Island world, yougot to be cool with it.

(53:25):
You got to be like, yeah, Ijust see the guy that I was just
making out with hitting onsomeone else.

Maybe that was why I conjured his act,
because actually if I saw himcuddling with heidi, there would
be a big part of me that's likeoh you got here first, so I
guess you get to cuddle myfiancee, and I would feel
insecure.
I'd be like do you want herinstead?
How did that make you feel?
That made me feel bad, kibbe.

That's as far as we got in terms of learning
how to deal with dreams.
How does it make you feel andremember that everyone in a
dream is actually you, right?

I do have to compete with a ghost in
some ways.
I mean, he doesn't make me feelthat way, but that's what it
means to marry a widower.
Anyway, we were talking aboutthe show.
Do we have anybody else topsychoanalyze?
Well, andrea's cool, shelly'scool.
I said that at the beginning.

I do think that the show has an exceptional
number of people whodemonstrate like really good
communication skills, likethere's a moment it's so small.
Huda yeah, I think it's Huda,of course was upset about
something Because shemisinterpreted Alendra's.

(54:47):
You know, I don't know.

She said yeah.
She said don't know.
She said yeah, she says, shesaid we're gonna.

We're gonna talk about this later or
something.
And huda was like oh my god,I'm being rejected as per the
core belief, right that she'sprojecting all over the place.
And alandria sat her down, waslike oh, I'm so sorry, I totally
see why you would think that I.
I meant you know like that youwere in trouble or that I'm
upset with you, but I just meantwe're going to have a girl chat

(55:12):
later, I apologize.
And I was like, wow, I got tolike I'm going to try to record
that, yeah.
Yeah, like Shelly and Alandria,particularly, are just like
masters of being open andconnecting but honest.
Honest and being like, yeah,I'm into this person, I'm into

(55:33):
that person.
Like I value both of you so youknow, they just are really able
to navigate, just like I thinkthey would be amazing in a
polyamorous relationship, justlike they're both so beautiful
too.
I mean, oh, my god I God, Imean what is going on.

I do think Alandria looks almost
exactly like a praying mantis.
That's not a bad thing, butjust think about it.

That doesn't sound like a good thing.

People look like animals all the time
it's.
It's partly the way she carriesherself.
She's very like calm and herposture is extremely erect, and
the way she moves her arms isalso very much like a praying
mantis would.

That's true.
That's a really good yeah.
Yeah, okay, all right.
Alandria is a emotionallyintelligent praying mantis.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumb (56:20):
Jeremiah's a little bitch jeremiah's a
little bitch who does who hurther?

you know, like who hurt that woman.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (56:28):
Probably the father of her child.
Yeah that's probably true.
It was heartwarming to knowthat he's still in the picture,
though.
Oh is he?
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, who else is on the show?
Austin is.
Oh, I have to just I just haveto really applaud Austin here.
Austin has cheated on sixpeople and nobody is worried

(56:52):
about that.

I mean Austin seems kind and fun and chill,
but this man slept with likehundreds of people and sent a
thousand nudes and he's a poolboy.
I mean this guy is, and thisguy's working it.

You know he cheated on six people,
that is so many people to cheaton him, and nope, everybody was
like oh, but then they neverbrought it up again.
They never were like, oh, newwomen who come in, just so.
You know, this guy has cheatedon six different people, or
maybe he cheated six times onthe same woman.

(57:31):
I don't know.

I feel like that's less shocking than
sending a thousand nudes athousand.
Probably exaggerated that, butmaybe why would you bump on that
number?
But he's just someone assuming.
He seems like.
He seems like innocent and kindand good-natured and it just
flies by your radar that like oh, he's actually like a pretty

(57:54):
big player yeah, totally and butit's a nobody.

Yeah, nobody comments on like that I.
That has been stuck in my headforever.
That is amazing.
Amazing that you can present asthe exact opposite of how you
actually must treat women inorder to send a thousand dick
pics and cheat on six of them.
That is like really significantum, nick is.

(58:19):
Nick is kind of.
He has more personality than Ioriginally thought he did.
It's kind of coming out.
He seems like he has a sense ofhumor.

Sierra seems pretty mature and cool nick is
definitely the one that I'd gofor, because he everyone goes
for him.
He's the cute, he's a cute,funny, accessible guy um yeah, I
would go for him.

When I was 22 I would go for pepe.
Now I mean, I would go for noneof them now, but you know, but
yes pepe, definitely.

I was surprised.
He seems a very like,respectful and stoic and got a
good head on his shoulders.
He's the one that I wouldn'tdate at first, but I'd be like I
probably should.

Yeah, I probably should.
I would totally date him atfirst.

He's a responsible pick.

It's so weird because I always date
people who are super animated,but I've always been drawn to
the Matt Damon's of the worldwho are much more laid back.
But I just never date them forwhatever reason.
Maybe they're not into me, Idon't know.
But pepe, you know?

(59:20):
Um, I also thought oneinteraction I thought was
hysterical was hannah.
When hannah got really mad atcharlie for like, oh yeah,
talking to some other girl, butthen, as he's working it through
with her, she starts laughingbecause she realizes she's being
crazy and then he just goesyou're, you're a psycho, you
know that and she just continuedlaughing.
It was such a perfect commentbecause she was being psycho,
but in an endearing like waywhere she picked it up herself

(59:43):
and she was able to be like yeah, I'm just being insecure and
getting mad at you because of myown feelings I mean it's a
crazy world.

But yeah, I mean, if this was right after
she climbed into a to pepe's lapand made out with him, I mean,
like the.
The interesting thing aboutthis show, too, is like the use
of jealousy.
Right, because it's becausethere's not as much of like a
monogamy is like, is it is?
It's like a weird, likepolyamorous, like non-exclusive

(01:00:15):
world where you can be jealous,but that's almost like your
signal that you, you actuallylike this person.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:22):
I know, I think that's so toxic.
I mean, it's it, it's true tosome extent, but I just think
that we, we aim for a worldwhere we can tell we like
somebody before we fear losingthem from another, by another
person.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:39):
But, yeah, but if you think about it like
it's, it's like a reallyaccelerated version of life
where it's like are you going tolock in and settle, knowing
that they're going to throwbombshells?
For the rest, like you're goingto get picks that are going to
increase in quality, likethey're they're throwing in the

(01:01:01):
top, top tier contestants lateron.
Right, like they get hotter andhotter.
You're like, oh my God, oh mygod, iris, like, like, are you a
person like what is going onhere?
it's like interesting butthey're intense, they
intentionally like tempt themaway so it's really like a game
of um okay, am I gonna put allmy chips in this one, or am I

(01:01:22):
gonna stay open?
And if I stay open, I mightrisk this, this connection that
might actually take me to theend.

So and then also the challenges where
they all are like have to makeout with each other in the most
revolting ways.
By the way.
Yeah, I mean, this is anotherway.
The show has like flippedculture on its head.
They say things like therewasn't nearly enough tongue
since when has like tonguing?
Since when has like tonguingcome into popularity?
every lesson I've learned aboutkissing tongues out.

(01:01:54):
I mean, it's, you know, like alittle bit little hint, little
tease, you know but they seem tobe aware that the camera is
looking and they are gonna.

They go a tongue first, you know there was
.

I got a clip of Huda and I put it on
Instagram, where she literallygoes like this like before their
lips meet for the first time,her tongue is 100 out.
Yeah, and I'm not picking onhuda, they're all doing that
shit.
It's the most bizarre thingI've ever seen, maybe they're
being coached by producers.

They're like, we like this.

Yeah, you know passion get memes about
you, just stick your tongue out.

One more thing I'll say about the dynamic
that I find interesting, andmaybe I don't know if this.
Yeah, you know Passion memes.
If you want to get memes aboutyou, stick your tongue out.
One more thing I'll say aboutthe dynamic that I find
interesting, and maybe I don'tknow if this is a gendered thing
, but how tricky it is forpeople to get group support and
validation around your conflictwith others, around your

(01:02:48):
conflict with others.
I was watching how Jeremiah andHuda, you know, do their thing,
and the men are way more likelyto be honest in different
directions.
They're going to be like welove you, man.
I think this is weird.
I think that you guys likeespecially Ace, you guys are
being like toxic.
This is like a bad sign.

(01:03:09):
You weren't right when youdidn't go up and comfort her.
However, I love you, right.
And the women the entire time,whoever it is, they're like yeah
, you're right, the other one istoxic.
That's what women do, thoughyou know.
Yeah, you're just a queen.
You got to make sure they treatyou like a queen and nothing

(01:03:31):
less, and I'm like can we callout some of our girlfriends for
bad behavior?
I mean, that is, that is whatwe do.

I know it is what we do.
I mean I well, I have areputation of being a devil's
advocate because I don'tnecessarily do that, but then it
makes people mad at me and callme a devil's advocate in a bad
way.

So why is that?
Is it like?
Is that a girl thing?
Is that there, there should?
There's like a girl code of,like you know, for your
girlfriend to say yeah, you'renot the crazy one, she's the
crazy one, yeah.

I mean well.
I was just side with you, mymom about my sister and she
defended my sister and I waslike how dare you.

So I wonder if it is a gender thing, like I
wonder if there's an expectationwhere girls like support each
other and I do, I, I I wonder.
If it's now that I'm thinkingabout it, I was like, why do I
expect?
Why do I react that way?
I feel like girls maybe, ormaybe me.
I'm more quick to doubt myselfon a regular basis.

And so.

I'm more hard on myself, right?
Most of my thoughts are like oh, I'm wrong, I'm dumb, I did
this wrong.
And then when I get in anargument or get into like I'm
upset'm dumb, I did this wrong.
And then when I get an argumentor get into like I'm upset, I
go to you to get a little bit ofencouragement or a little bit
of like support.
I don't know if that's a case inall girlfriend relationships or

(01:05:02):
men relationships, but I wonderif that's why girls like maybe,
like if you were, if you call,if I'm, if you're calling me out
on my shit, I'm like.
I know that already.
I already have thoughts abouthow I'm wrong, right, yeah?
So shut up, don't tell me I'mwrong, tell me that it's all the
other person's fault.

That was not, in fact, how I felt
with my mother.
I think my sister wascompletely wrong.
But yeah, I know, I I feel thatway too.
I think that, yeah, women arevery quick to I mean, yeah, most
maybe mature women are, I don'tknow, aren't very quick to
blame themselves.
And well, I do think that womenlook for validation more often

(01:05:43):
than maybe men do, at leastvalidation in the, in the form
of feedback from friendsinteresting well, well, should
we uh go watch some love islandand I don't know if there's any
tips, but I think the tips arebe like

not really.
I mean, the tips are like yeah,like do whatever Alandria does,
yeah, to take care of her looksand also communicate and
connect to people.
Don't do what Huda does.
And then let's figure outwhat's going on with Ace.
We really want to hear all ofyour opinions about this.
So if you want to click on thebutton that says like send us a

(01:06:28):
text it's annoying that feature,we can't actually respond.
So if you actually want to talkto us, like give us your email
address so we could respond,Leave a comment with your email
address.

Some people have just left their
email address and we don't knowwhat we're emailing.
So comment plus your emailaddress, and then we can respond
.

Yeah.
And then July 14th, opening upthe community and the skills
group.
So if you want to be able to,you know, have a safe space
where we can talk about thisstuff and talk about your loved
ones with mental illness oraddiction and just help you
learn all these skills that wetalk about, like communication,
setting boundaries maybe in anicer way than ACE becoming

(01:07:08):
Alandria and the way she ishonest and open, but also like
very confident, self-possessed.
We will learn together.

Yeah, I think Ace is like Littlefinger,
but with more romantic pizzazz.
But he's like cunning, he'scunning and clever.
Littlefinger happened to be myfavorite.

Send us your hypotheses and guesses about ACE
.
We would love to hear yourthoughts.

Okay, well, we love you all very much
and we'll see you next week.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
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The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
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(01:07:56):
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at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
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(01:08:17):
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
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