November 5, 2025 • 49 mins
Ever walk away from a conversation feeling like the villain in someone else’s story? In this episode, I dig into projection—the defense that pushes a person’s unwanted traits and feelings onto you—and show how it warps reality, fuels gaslighting, and leaves loved ones doubting their own character.
I break down the differences between borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder in plain terms: emotion dysregulation versus self-image dysregulation, and how people with both disorders often project onto their loved ones. I also talk about my training in Transference Focused Psychotherapy to illustrate how expert clinicians address patients who don't want to take accountability for their own insecurities.
Even if you're not a trained clinician, I share practical strategies for defending against someone's projection, like how to reality-check without spiraling, validate feelings without accepting a false story, resist over-explaining when logic won’t land, and set boundaries. If you love someone who struggles with BPD, NPD, or emotional immaturity, this episode helps you stay steady, compassionate, and clear about who you are.
*If this topic resonates and you're struggling with someone who's making you feel blamed and confused, book a free call with me (Dr. Kibby) to learn how KulaMind can get you grounded in your reality again.
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Kibby (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey little helpers, it's Dr.
Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people youlove.
Coolamine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
(00:22):
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs, or setting boundaries.
Even if you're just curious andwant to chat about it, book a
free call with me by going tothe link in the show notes or
going to coolamine.com,K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click
get started.
Thank you and enjoy the show.
Welcome back, little helpers.
It's Dr.
Kippy here, and I'm going totalk about a topic that I find
(00:44):
fascinating, which isprojection.
So if you have ever walked awayfrom conversations with someone
always feeling blamed and amonster and like you were the
villain or the problem, but youhave no freaking idea what
they're talking about, thisepisode is for you because that
(01:06):
could be a side of projection.
So imagine being blamed forhaving intentions or actions
that really feel out ofcharacter to you, or that you
really don't remember happening.
Like someone insisting that youare trying to hurt them or
accusing you of faults thatyou're like, what?
(01:28):
No one sees me that way, or Idon't remember that.
That actually might be asituation that's common when you
deal with someone with apersonality disorder.
So I'm gonna talk about how,like what projection is, and how
people with something likeborderline personality disorder
(01:48):
or narcissistic personalitydisorder, even trauma, may
project parts of themselves thatthey don't like onto you.
So I'll talk about why ithappens and how it feels so
gaslighty, and what the theoryand therapy behind uh this
behavior actually tell us.
And then, of course, I'm gonnatalk about what to do when you
(02:10):
feel like someone's projectingall their stuff on you.
And I want to say that I'm I'mtalking about gaslighting
because it when someone projectsthemselves, their insecurities,
their feelings onto you, it canmake you feel crazy.
It can make you doubt who youare, it can make you doubt what
(02:31):
happened.
I have a terrible memory, soI'm really susceptible to
gaslighting in general.
When someone says you did this,you were thinking this, and I
go, I'm pretty sure not.
I'm pretty sure I don't havethose and like I didn't do that.
I don't know, but I get soconfused.
And then I feel in thosemoments gaslit, but when we talk
(02:51):
about gaslighting, I see thison the internet all the time.
When we talk about gaslighting,people think it's just like
when an evil narcissist tries tomake you, you know, doubt
everything about yourself,right?
And it it's almost talked aboutas deliberate, like your
partner intentionallyquestioning your own sanity in
(03:12):
order to, you know, get powerover you.
And that does happen a lot ofthe time, but often gaslighting,
especially with projection, isnot intentional, right?
It's not like they are doing itto confuse you and make you
doubt who you are, it's just acoping mechanism.
Projection is a really crappycoping mechanism.
(03:33):
So, what is projection?
Projection is a psychologicaldefense mechanism where a person
unconsciously blames their ownunwanted feelings, traits, or
impulses or thoughts ontosomeone else.
Right?
So there they are, someone isinsecure about something or
(03:56):
hates a part of them and theyblame someone else for that.
They never go, oh yeah, I havethat part and you do too, or
whatever.
But it's like, no, you are meanto me.
You are judging me, you areangry.
Right?
And the reason why people dothat is out of shame, of deep,
deep shame.
So instead of acknowledgingsomething uncomfortable in
(04:17):
themselves, like, oh, I havethis part of me that I really
don't like.
unknown (04:22):
Right?
Dr. Kibby (04:22):
Instead of doing that, they say, no, no, no, I'm
not like that at all.
I'm not angry.
You are the angry one.
Right?
Sometimes partners who are, youknow, think about cheating or
thinking about or even cheatingthemselves might accuse their
partner of being unfaithful,right?
By being like, yeah, I don'tlike this part of me, so I'm
(04:42):
gonna blame you for it.
This is a really, as you canimagine, really bad defense
mechanism.
But it's how some people learnto survive and learn to um cope
with oh, there's there's thingsliving inside me that I hate and
(05:04):
I don't know what to do aboutthem.
But unfortunately, thisdefense, first of all, distorts
reality.
Like makes them think, I'mperfect.
I'm not like that at all.
I am passive, I'm a victim.
I can't, I'm not the one whocauses problems at all.
And then they just cut out awhole piece of reality.
(05:24):
It allows people to avoidconfronting their guilt or their
shame or even self-hatred bypushing it on other people.
This is one of the most classicpsychological concepts because
it's like such a Freudian thing.
This is how psychodynamic andpsychoanalytic therapy really
(05:46):
got there, got there like breadand butter, because Freud first
identified projection like overa century ago.
And clinicians have sinceobserved that it's really common
in people with like reallyfragile self-esteem and little
self-awareness.
We all project things onto eachother, right?
(06:09):
Like the way we've learned tosee ourselves and the world, we
see in other people.
That just happens.
But usually it's kind of likeonly sometimes.
Um, and when push comes toshove, you'd be like, oh yeah, I
was, I was kind of a jerk,right?
But certain people are socommitted to cutting that part
(06:34):
of themselves out that theymight default on their way of
coping, right?
They use it often, they projectoften and for many
relationships.
And you see that when someonegets really, really defensive a
lot, when they can't take anycriticism, that's like a core
(06:56):
part of borderline andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
If they take any kind offeedback, they're like, no, they
like, they shut it, shut itdown.
They react really badly to it.
Um, or or they either lash outin anger or they spiral in shame
when someone goes, hey, youknow, you did this thing that
wasn't great.
They go, no, they like can'thold it.
(07:17):
They can't say, Yeah, allright, yeah, I can do that.
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm at fault forthat.
I'll work on that.
They can't do that.
It is shoved out.
It's like a threat, it's anexistential threat to the way
they see themselves and theirwhole reality.
So projection is calledsometimes in this personality
(07:39):
sort of world as a primitivedefense.
So we all have a, you know,this is psychoanalytic um uh
theory.
So it's it, this is not uhcognitive behavioral therapy,
it's more of a psychodynamic,psychoanalytic world.
So they call this primitivedefenses, right?
Like this way of thinking thathappened early in life, and
that's how someone copes withthe pain forever, right?
(08:03):
It's you can see, I mean, I seethis in my kid where it's like
something that he doesn't like,it's like, no, no, no, no,
that's not me.
No, I don't want that, I don'twant that.
When we're happy, he's happy,right?
There's like an all or nothingkind of thing.
So emotionally, it feelsimmature because when you grow
up, you're able to hold nuance,hold like good and bad into one
(08:26):
thing and integrate them.
But when you're young, it'slike all good or all bad.
And some people just staythere.
Some people have like a resteddevelopment and are emotionally
immature and stay in the I'meither all good, I'm beautiful,
I'm perfect, I'm I'm successful,I'm I'm a victim, or I'm
nothing.
I'm terrible, I'm weak, I'mterrible, you know, I'm I'm I'm
(08:49):
worthless, right?
It's all or nothing.
So these primitive defenses atthe most extreme level, I'm also
talking about splitting, right?
That's an old term for seeingyourself as all good or all bad.
And then projection is anotherprimitive defense, but it's kind
of like, okay, if I'm eitherall good or all bad, then I'm
(09:11):
gonna be all good, and you'regonna be the one who's all bad.
So all this to say is thatpeople with borderline
personality disorder andnarcissistic personality
disorder, or just emotionallyimmature, externalize the
painful parts of themselves, theall bad.
Rather than saying, like, Ifeel bad or I feel unlovable, or
(09:34):
I'm I'm kind of a jerksometimes, they might insist
that you are treating them badlyor you don't care when really
those feelings started withinthem.
The reason why this happens,there's there's object relations
theory and also a lot ofresearch in identity, where um
it's proposed that the way wesee ourselves and our in our
(09:58):
personality development isreally dependent on combining
all of the different experiencesand relationships you have with
other people into a whole.
So let's say you grow up andyou have some good friends who
see you as a wonderful person,but then you also have people
(10:20):
who think you're a jerk and youhave fights with someone else,
and you mix them all togetherinto an integrated personality.
I'm sometimes good, I'msometimes bad.
You know what?
A really good, a really goodillustration of this was an
Inside Out 2.
So if you haven't seen it,please go watch it because you
could see the personalitydevelopment when it looks
(10:41):
healthy.
In the movie, Riley, the maincharacter, is going through, you
know, different kinds ofrelationships.
She's she's breaking off fromher old friends and getting
together with new friends andseeing herself and experimenting
with different versions of her.
And some are not great.
Like she actually was kind of ajerk to her friends in some in
(11:02):
some moments.
And she goes through this likehardcore splitting where she's
like, I'm the worst, I'm the no,it's your fault.
And then at some point sheintegrates and goes, I'm a good
friend, but I also can be reallyinconsiderate to people
(11:24):
sometimes, right?
So when you're healthy, youdevelop into a whole.
You might still not like thoseparts, right?
Like, you still might not likethe part that's like not a great
friend, but you still go, yeah,that's me.
That's part of me.
It's not all of me, but it'spart of me.
When you go, oh, I'm either abad friend or a good friend,
(11:46):
that's a primitive primitivedefense, right?
So it kind of goes along withthat projection, right?
The idea that you're all bad isso terrible, push it onto other
people.
So with these personalitydisorders, or maybe you even
think about a person in yourlife that's emotionally
immature, it's like they can'thold the two sides.
(12:09):
They can't be like, yeah, Imeant, I meant well, but I also
screwed up.
They go, I meant well, and youscrewed up.
And then you go, did I?
I don't want, I don't think Idid.
And that's the part for theloved ones.
That's the part like theprojectee that is the most
distressing, because you'relike, what is real?
(12:30):
Their view of reality is sodifferent than mine, and and
specifically, reality of who weare in this relationship, right?
So I'll give an example in myown life.
And uh, you know, when I talkabout this, then um uh my mom
could probably have choicewords, but this is just an
(12:52):
example of an argument that Ihad with her recently that
really, really hurt me and wasone of the things I had to draw
the line with our relationship.
But I was going through um, I Ijust gotten my double
mastectomy uh surgery, which isthe most intense surgery I
hopefully will ever get in mylife.
Um, basically replay likecutting out my two breasts
(13:15):
during breast cancer.
And I had tubes coming out ofme, I was bandaged up, and I
just was like so drained.
I um I was so tired and sickthat, and I know that my mom
loves to take uh my son over toher house and play.
(13:37):
But I there was m manylogistics that I just couldn't
handle at that at that moment.
Um, especially because when hecomes back, sometimes when he
came back from my mom's house,he would get tantrumy.
And I and I talked to myhusband and I was like, I can't,
I can't deal with thetantruming.
I can't deal with him thrashingaround while I'm, you know, I
(13:58):
have literally tubes out of mybody.
So I told my mom, like, youknow, like I think this is not a
good idea.
Can you just come over?
Can we just not do that planright now?
He just, my son gets reallytantrum-y and after he comes
back from your house, and I justcan't deal with that.
And she kept texting me.
She's like, why?
Why is it why is he tantrum?
(14:19):
Is this something I did?
Do I feed him something wrong?
I um she kept like looking forthe reason why he was
tantruming, and I was like, Idon't know, I really don't know,
but can you just can you justaccept this boundary, please?
Um and then she kept asking,and I was so stupid.
I mean, I was so sick, and Iwas just like, I was like, maybe
(14:40):
it's the effect you have onpeople.
And what I meant in that momentwas stimulating effect.
So I notice when they play, andit's just very it hypes him up.
And after he gets too hyped up,he gets a little tantrumy.
So that's what I meant.
But she lost her shit afterthat.
(15:01):
She yelled at me, she screamedat me.
I mean, for days.
And that was, and she and shewas saying things like, now I
know who you really are.
You're abusive, you're abusingme.
How could you do this to me?
All I want is to love, and youget you're just the worst.
Like, she just she just saw meas a as the monster.
(15:22):
And I kind of knew, I kind ofexpected that was gonna happen
because every time I say no toher, that tends to happen.
But she was accusing me ofthings that I was like, whoa,
whoa.
And to this day, she stilltalks about that interaction as
abuse.
And she'll even say thingslike, You told me never to see
(15:43):
your son.
You told me I couldn't comeover and see him.
And I've showed her textmessages where I said, Please
come over and see him here.
And I will watch her literallylike look away and say, Well,
well, you were abusive anyway.
Like, she will just not evensee the evidence of the other
side of my reality.
Have you ever experiencedsomething like that?
(16:05):
It's maddening.
It's maddening.
Like, that is the thing that II I wanna I want to take the all
of the way she sees me and whatI was accused of and just be
like, look, look at this.
Am I really that?
Am I really this horriblething?
It and especially with aparent, it like affected me over
(16:30):
the years, and I'm like, am Ithat way?
And I'm wrestling with thisversion of me that I'm like, you
know.
And luckily, after having a alot of relationships, I have a
different identity where I'mlike, yeah, maybe I'm a jerk a
lot of the time, but I'm overalla good person.
You know, people outside of myrelationship with my mom think
I'm a good person.
(16:51):
So it doesn't fully engulf mein the gaslight, but there are
times where I'm like, oh, Iguess I'm a terrible person
who's just abusing my mom.
So this is a really extremeexample, but it can happen with
someone who just has suchintense emotion dysregulation
and also takes noaccountability, has no
(17:12):
self-awareness.
They just take all theirinsecurities and all their
feelings and project it onto theother person.
And the tricky part is thatwhen they project, it's not
completely insane, right?
Because then you would just belike, oh, you're just completely
not in reality.
It's the most insidious and themost gaslighty and dangerous
(17:36):
when it is linked to a kernel oftruth.
So for my mom to say, you werebeing abusive, you were blaming,
you know, a situation on me,and you're saying that I'm bad,
and you're saying that I, youknow, oh gosh, I can't remember.
You say you don't want me here,and you I never can see my son,
(17:57):
blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, whoa, that's allcrazy pants.
But it was linked to a kernelof truth where I was saying,
yeah, something you're doingmight contribute to the
tantrums.
And to this day, like, youknow, if I'm really being
honest, yeah.
I think that when they playreally hard and it's really
exciting, and there's all thesetoys and stuff like that, I see
them tantrum more.
(18:17):
So I, in my mind, I was kind ofblaming her.
I didn't want to say it, like,I didn't, like, it, but yeah,
there's a kernel of truth.
I was like a little judgy inthat moment.
I don't think I was fullyabusive.
I wasn't a monster.
I wasn't telling her she can'tsee her grandson ever again.
But there was that kernel oftruth.
And so when sh when someoneprojects so deeply and it hits
(18:39):
on some truth inside you, that'sthe moments where you're like,
Am I a monster?
Are they right?
I'm not here, I'm also not hereto say that projection or
gaslighting is all like an evilplot that has no basis in
anything.
Like, there's definitely a backand forth here, right?
(18:59):
But it can really fuck you up.
It can really get you confused.
So when you feel like someoneis pushing a version of
themselves onto you, that's whenyou have to step back and look
at it and be like, oh, this is aprojection.
Right?
(19:20):
This is common also innarcissistic personality
disorder because uh NPD, thereit's really it's really all
about self-image.
Um, I had a colleague reallynicely describe it as um a
dysregulation of yourself-image.
So with BPD is a dysregulationof emotion, up and down.
(19:43):
You're happy, you're sad,you're good, about blah blah
blah.
With narcissistic personalitydisorder, it's I'm special, I'm
beautiful, I'm successful, I'mon top, or I'm the worst, I'm
worthless, I'm ugly, I'mnothing, right?
So it's this identity that goesup and down.
And that is such a that's suchan immature way of seeing the
(20:09):
seeing yourself, because it'slike who is one, who is one
thing?
Who is always perfect?
No one, right?
It's like we got some goodstuff and then we have some bad
stuff.
That's like the healthy umpersonality development.
I'm successful sometimes when Ido these things, and I'm not
successful other times.
But people with NPD can'thandle that nuance.
So they are they have such afragile ego that they're like,
(20:33):
hmm, any drop of criticism orany drop of bad or part of me
that is like naughty, I don'twant.
I can't I can't hold it.
I can't hold the nuance.
You have it.
So for many narcissists, thedefault mechanism is projection
because they they can take allthe shortcomings that would be
(20:55):
otherwise super threatening andput it on to someone else,
right?
Whatever that is.
If it's like, um, I'm not theI'm not the abusive one here.
You're the you're thenarcissist, you're the you're
the narcissist, you're theabuser.
I'm a helpless victim.
You know, I'm not the angryone, you're the angry one.
Or even like weakness.
(21:18):
I'm not weak, you're weak.
You're sensitive.
Right?
Have you ever heard anarcissist say that, you know,
get get upset that you're toosensitive, but really they're
quite sensitive about, you know,if anyone says anything bad
about them, suddenly they flyinto like they kind of collapse,
and you're like, wait a minute,you're accusing me of
sensitive.
What's going on?
(21:40):
That's projection.
They wanna, they don't want toadmit that they're sensitive to
criticism.
So it's on you.
Blaming a common thing they dois blaming other people for
mistakes, or they they kind oflike wash it away with
justification instead of like,yeah, fucked up there.
I'm so sorry.
I I tend to be like that.
It's like, well, I did itbecause you made me.
(22:04):
You know, I I made that, Imight have made that mistake,
but it's pretty much your fault,right?
Um, sometimes it could be soextreme that they accuse you of
what they did, um, or accuse youof having thoughts or
intentions that they have,right?
Like, um, you you mean to dothis bad thing.
(22:24):
You mean to to cheat on therelationship.
And it's like, really?
Is that me, or was that you?
So really with narcissisticpersonality disorder, anything
that contradicts this idealized,um fanciful, special self-image
(22:47):
is pushed onto other peoplebecause otherwise it would
trigger deep, deep shame and awhole existential crisis.
Projection is a quick escapehatch.
They see their own bad traitsin you, they get to maintain
that they're perfect.
They see themselves as perfect,which is the only way they
could feel like they couldsurvive.
(23:08):
So they can't tolerate shame.
Um, and often this is reallyunconscious.
I think when we, you know, theinternet talks about narcissist
and gaslighting as like thisevil plot, a conspiracy to make
you crazy, but a lot of the timepeople do it without realizing
it.
Like they're just unaware.
(23:29):
Doesn't make it less harmful,but they're just unaware of what
they were doing.
A really cool example ofprojection.
That's a projection, and theseprimitive defenses of splitting
yourself into all these pieces,good or bad, and just not owning
a part.
A really good example is FightClub.
I could be dating myself atthis point, but because at this
(23:51):
point it's such an old movie,but it was like a movie of my
generation.
But Fight Club with Brad Pittand Edward Norton.
I hope I'm not giving too muchaway, but it's so if you haven't
seen it and want to see it,skip the next few minutes and
just watch it.
It's so good.
But it's interesting, the maincharacter doesn't even have a
(24:14):
name.
So it's Edward Norton, who'sthis like trapped, numb,
everyday man who literally isn'tnamed in the movie, right?
He's nothing.
He can't accept anything abouthimself, is trying to find some
feeling of being alive.
And he tries to do all the bestthings, tries to like do all
(24:34):
the right stuff, get a job,blah, blah, blah, but he just
doesn't feel like a wholeperson.
He goes to all these weirdemotional like support groups to
try to create this feeling ofalive and vulnerable, but it's
just almost like a weirdcompartmentalizing like
humanity, right?
(24:55):
He's just like is going intoplaces where he could feel
whole.
What he does is he creates apart of himself and projects it
onto another person.
So he creates this image ofTyler Durden, who's this
handsome, aggressive, this pureid, right?
It's a spoiler alert, pleasedon't listen to this if you
(25:16):
haven't seen it, but it'sactually a part of the main
character, but he literally seesit as another person.
You don't see it until the end,but it's actually the same
character.
But he is just like, heidentifies as this downtrodden,
like helpless, everyday man thathe doesn't even see that this
really aggressive form of him isinside him.
(25:36):
So that you know, it itprojects onto like literally a
hallucination of another person.
But it's like if he saw TylerDern in other people.
And you could see that when hehas a this character has a
relationship with a woman, shedoesn't know who she's dating.
She's like, one minute you wantme, and you're like, you, you
know, you're sexual and you'reyou're you're aggressive,
(25:58):
whatever.
And the other one, you don'twant anything to do with me, and
you're this other person.
It's because that guy justcan't deal with the fact that he
is both himself and TylerDurden in one person.
And that's that's what happenswith people with BPD and MPD.
So what what do we even do astherapists with someone who
(26:19):
constantly projects, who whowon't take accountability for a
part of themselves?
Well, I really learned how todeal with this in my internship
at um New York PresbyterianHospital when I learned
transference-focusedpsychotherapy.
That's a treatment for umpersonality disorders like MPD
and BPD.
(26:40):
The theory underneath it iswhat's called object relations
theory, saying that weinternalized all these different
relationships into ourpersonality.
We find out who we are bycombining all the relationships
we have over our lives, andthat's who we are, right?
(27:01):
So in TFP, this therapy, thetherapist, kind of like this is
why Freud is so thesepsychoanalysts are pictured like
sitting behind a patient andthe patient just like lying
there.
The therapist is trying tocreate a relationship that is
(27:23):
just like a container for thepatient's inner world.
Right?
They're they're trying to kindof disappear, like be really
neutral and almost likedisappear so that the patient
can fill up this the space withtheir own stuff, you know, bring
in their own baggage, if youwill.
Because what you want is forthe patient to project the parts
(27:48):
of themselves that they hateonto the therapist, which is
called transference.
So, for example, when I wasdoing this, I had a couple
thoughts, but people who hadpersonality disorders that I
worked with, um there was one inparticular who was like a
(28:09):
lovely patient in so many ways,but he was, you know, he would
do things that were quite mean.
He would be put me down a lot,he would laugh at me, um he
would often like question theway I looked, you know, like he
would make like little jabs atme all the time.
And when he started to attachand start to get deeper in our
(28:34):
relationship, he started toaccuse me of judging him, of
thinking badly of him, of makingfun of him.
And that's why in those kind ofpsychodynamic therapy, it's
like the the therapist is almostblank, so it's just not even
putting anything out there todetach to.
It's just like I'm neutral, andthen the patient goes, You're
(28:58):
judging me.
You're not talking becauseyou're judging.
And that is an entryway for theclinician and the therapist and
the patient to explore thatpart of them to be like, Oh,
look at this part that you areso scared of and hate so much
that you're pushing it onto thetherapist.
Where is it coming from?
(29:20):
And eventually maybe creatingsafety so that they can take it
in and learn to deal with it andlearn to own the parts in
themselves that I'm trying toproject.
Really, really difficult.
This is really hard work.
It's really hard because it's,you know, there always is a
kernel of truth.
Sometimes I'm sitting there andI'm tired and I'm like, oh God,
(29:43):
you know, this patient is justso mean to me all the time.
And then he goes, You're beingjudgmental.
You know, he was reading like alittle kernel of truth.
He was maybe like putting moreon top of it, but he was
latching onto the real thing andbeing like, Yep, this is you.
So, what do you do when thathappens?
Well, in that moment, as aclinician, I'm not saying this
(30:04):
is what you should do, but as aclinician, that's when we go,
okay, great.
This is a meat to work with,right?
This is a part of you that youdon't want to own.
But let's explore it and see ifwe could hold it together
peacefully with acceptance.
Takes a long time.
So over time in TFP, youwouldn't kind of like point it
(30:25):
out gently and explore it.
Like, huh?
Interesting.
You think that I'm beingjudgmental in that moment.
Can you tell me, can you tellme more about that?
What feelings are coming upwhen you think of judgment?
When have you felt that before?
You know, did what whatthoughts went through your mind
as you saw judgment in me?
(30:46):
Right?
You're just kind of giving thema chance to explore that
projection, that, that, thatperception of you.
And then you might say thatover and over again.
Huh.
Again, you see that I'm beingjudgmental.
Tell me more about that.
Right?
What does that feel like?
(31:08):
Have you felt judgmental?
Were you judgmental towards meat all?
What did that feel like?
Right.
So you try to hold, take theprojection and look at it
together.
Like, this is all with therapy,isn't it?
Taking the painful parts andlooking at it together.
(31:28):
And not blaming anyone andsaying, oh, this is a hot
potato, you have it, or I haveit.
But it's like, um, let's look,let's examine it and hold it
peacefully together.
Until the patient can slowly belike, yeah, I can be judgmental
sometimes.
And I judged you in thatmoment.
(31:49):
And, you know, I thought thatyou were being judgmental, but
you know, I was, I was, I wasthinking that too.
Then you're like, okay, he'sable to take in that piece.
Um, and you want to like, inthat, in that moment, what
you're trying to do is helpingthe patients own their
projections.
It might take so long becauseit might be so threatening.
(32:12):
It might be the worst, it mightbe their greatest fear, right?
They might have been judged orabused or been hurt by someone,
like their parents or whatever,all their life, and they were
like, I never want to be like mymom.
I never want to be like my dad.
They're so judgmental.
And admitting that they can bejudgmental, that they've learned
(32:34):
it and it lives inside them,and they can be like their mom
or their dad or the abuser is sois a horrible thought.
So they're like, nope, I'm notan angry one.
I'm not judgmental, you are.
But it eventually it could belike, yeah, I could be angry and
I could be mean.
And I hate that because that'swhat my mom did to me.
(32:57):
But yeah, so now that I couldown it, I could work on it, I
could soften around it, I couldforgive myself, I could see
where it comes from, and I cansay, you know what?
I can be mean a lot, but I'mlearning to work with it.
I'm learning to hold it.
So in TFP, you're working withthat transference, that
(33:19):
projection, and give it back tothe patient.
Really, really hard.
I don't recommend doing thisfor your loved one, but just to
show you like how a clinician,like a specialist, will work
with it.
And it's really tough.
The a lot of our training wasto like really be firm and
(33:40):
sometimes like admit the truth.
Like, yeah, I was judgmental inthat moment, but keep gently
giving it back to them.
That's the hardest part.
When you've when I've hadpatients who just like, you
know, especially with BPD ornarcissism, who just come in
swinging, right?
They're like, you're abusive tome, you're a monster, you never
help me, you think I'm this.
(34:00):
And I'm like, I'm thinking,what?
What are you talking about?
Like, we've you were telling methat I'm amazing and that I
that I'm helping you and thatyou trust me, and now I'm the
monster?
Like, how could you accuse meof of of being this bad person?
But that human reaction of defdefending your reality is
(34:23):
something that we have to trainourselves out of as clinicians,
and we have to be like, okay,this is not me.
This is for them.
I'm not gonna take thispersonally, I'm gonna use this
as part of their healing.
Really, really difficult.
But here's what you do if youhave a loved one who's
projecting all their shit ontoyou.
Of course, same with any kindof gaslighting, reality check
(34:46):
and ground yourself.
Um, that feeling of confusion,of like, what the fuck are they
talking about?
I didn't do that.
That's like that doesn't seemlike me.
Um, I I'm really at I have areally hard time with that
because I have such a badmemory.
But I find it really helpful,first of all, that a lot of my
(35:10):
communications with people areon, you know, text or or email,
so I could kind of see.
But also sometimes I get toreality check with someone who
knows me well.
Um, so I you know, turn tosomeone else, like, is did I say
that?
Am I that kind of person?
Like, what's going on?
Like, look at this text messagewith me, right?
Of course that's bias becauseyou know, those people are going
(35:31):
to take your side, and but atleast it could reality check
that, like, hmm, this is notthis is out of character, or I
don't have a memory of it.
And that's my reality.
Maybe I did do that horriblething, but I don't remember it,
and that's not how I saw thelike my actions.
I definitely didn't intend it.
(35:52):
So it's just just having thatsense of reality in your mind of
who you are, it's reallyhelpful.
This part's really tricky.
I think the gaslighting comesin when if like two people,
you're in a you're in this kindof conflict with someone with
(36:14):
who are, you know, who tend toproject onto you.
And everyone is like you'retreating this projection like a
hot potato.
Like, you're the monster.
No, you're the monster, no,you're the like no one wants to
own it, no one wants to be theproblem.
So you just keep blaming eachother and citing evidence for
why you are actually the one atfault.
No, you are the actual one atfault.
(36:35):
You are the one who doesn'tcare, blah, blah, blah, right?
Get out of that.
Get out of like, who is thesole owner of this terribleness,
this part that no one wants toaccept.
And you could say, okay, let'sjust all own a piece of it.
Right?
Even if there's grounding intruth, in a kernel of truth, own
(36:57):
that part.
Take accountability for what'strue.
Right?
I I did try this with my mom.
I could have, I could have donethis stronger.
And I, you know, but yeah, inthose moments, I was so tapped
out and so like frustrated.
I was just like, yeah, maybe,maybe it is your stimulating
energy or effect on people thatis doing this to Jackson and
(37:19):
making this all complicated.
Like, yeah.
I don't think I'm abusive, butown that part, right?
And check in with yourself andcheck in with other people who
know you, right?
And eventually you might getbetter at doing this.
(37:41):
Not internalizing thatprojection.
Don't internalize the blame.
Remember that projection isabout them, not you.
You might have given a littlelike seed of something, and they
just like let it bloom, butprojection is really something
that they're struggling with.
There's a part of them thatthey don't want, and they're
(38:03):
just trying to give it to you.
They're trying to do there-gifting where they got a
wedding gift, like, you know,the bread maker that they don't
want, so they're trying to shoveit onto you, be like, you know,
that's yours now.
What you shouldn't do in thatmoment is play the game of blame
there.
Right?
Don't be like, oh, I am themonster, I am the worst.
(38:26):
Maybe they're right, or it'sall their fault, right?
Don't go, it's all you or it'sall me.
Think to yourself, this is aprojection.
These accusations,insecurities, are more about
what they're struggling withinside.
And maybe there's part of itthat's true about me, but it's
(38:47):
not my whole character.
It's not who I am.
Um and then please don't dothis.
I I'm so at fall to doing this.
It's horrible.
But I quickly go into trying todefend myself, right?
(39:08):
Trying to be like, wait, no,I'm I'm not, I didn't mean
anything bad by it.
I I I was talking about, Iover-explain.
Don't over-explain.
When someone is projecting alltheir insecurities onto you, and
you're like, whoa, that's notwhat happened, don't go into the
over-explanation like I do.
(39:31):
Don't give all the evidence forwhy you would never be that
kind of person, or theinsecurities are not true, or I
know it's so tempting, and I, asI say this, and I'm able to do
this so well as a clinician, butin my personal life, when my
(39:51):
mom says, like, you hate me,you're the monster, and you're
the yeah, you told me you cannever, I can never see my
grandson again.
I'm like, wait, no, let me showyou all of the evidence, and
maybe if I show you my reality,then it will solve the problem
and you'll be happy because thishorrible monster that you're
accusing me of isn't real.
You're welcome, right?
(40:12):
Don't do that.
And it's so hard to do whensomeone is accusing you of being
a like someone who's a villainthat's out of your character,
right?
When you feel like thatcharacter attack, of course you
want to defend yourself.
Of course you get angry.
But don't do what I do and gointo all the defenses and the
(40:35):
counter evidence against whatthey're saying.
Because it's not an it's not arational conversation, right?
They are feeling, they'refeeling such deep levels of
shame that they can't even feelthe shame, right?
They they're like, oh, I hatethis part of myself so much.
I'm gonna push it onto you, andI'm I can't even tolerate what
(40:57):
it what it would mean if I ownedpart of it.
That's such an emotionalresponse.
They're in a primitive defensemode.
Your logic is not gonna work.
Okay.
So don't get into the back andforth.
You could validate the emotionbehind it.
You could say, I totally getthat you feel judged, that you
(41:24):
feel hurt.
Um I'll admit I did, I didjudge in that moment.
However, I get that you'refeeling really hurt and it's not
my intention.
That's not how I remember it.
I just I'm I'm here and I loveyou.
Or you could choose to walkaway, be like, you know what?
It doesn't seem like this is mystruggle.
I'm here if you want to talkabout, you know, struggling with
(41:47):
these kind of feelings, but I Ireally, I really am not gonna
sit here and be blamed for beinga monster, right?
As I'm saying this, I'm alreadylike, but what if they are a
monster?
You know, so it it it is reallytough, but how about this?
You're not gonna get anywherein a conversation by trying to
(42:10):
figure out who's the monster,who's the problem.
A lot of people get into thesefights by being like, there is a
there's someone who is at faultand they're the all bad, and
we're gonna figure out who whichone it is.
You're not gonna win.
You might have done somethingthat you regret, the other
person does something thatregret.
(42:30):
So try not to do a hot potatoof trying to figure out who to
blame and be like, all right,let's own our parts, and then
let's figure out a way forward.
But when you're seeing theprojection, think to yourself,
this is a projection.
I'm not gonna take this as asign of who I am as a person.
(42:51):
I'm gonna validate the emotion,and I'm gonna tell them I care,
love, or whatever, and I'mgonna walk away because it's not
gonna be healthy to allow themto project all over you.
It's not gonna, it's not gonnamake them feel better.
I mean, it does in the shortterm, but in the long term, uh,
it doesn't really help becausethey keep doing it, right?
(43:14):
And I'll also say don't do themistake I I I still do, which is
holding out hope that they'llaccept that part of them that
they won't accept when someoneis committed to projecting their
(43:34):
insecurities or the parts ofthemselves they hate onto you,
it's so painful and it it justlike throws you into a state of
uh existential and identitycrisis.
Like, am I this monster?
And you might crave thishealing fantasy, you might crave
(43:57):
their accountability for themto finally say, Yeah, actually,
I accuse you of being an abuser,but I can be abusive sometimes
too.
I can be really hurtful.
Oh, even if I say that outloud, it just like imagining
someone like takingaccountability for that is so
(44:18):
relieving and would just allowtwo people just to be
individuals and not like allgood or all bad, like the the
villain and the protagonist,right?
So don't do what I do and don'thold on to the dream that
they'll finally change andaccept that part of themselves.
There's nothing you can do topush that to happen.
(44:42):
They gotta slowly learn totolerate the shame, tolerate the
parts of themselves that theydon't like, and become a whole
person.
Grow up.
And you can't force that.
You can't force that in them.
All you can do is neutrally belike, okay, this is a
(45:04):
projection.
I love you, I care about you,but I'm not taking this on.
I'm not let a therapist dothat.
Let the therapist try to usherthe projection back into their
into their identity and sense ofself.
And most importantly, beself-compassionate.
If you are the type of personwho, like me, works with or is
(45:28):
close to a lot of people whotend to project, it can really
shake everything you think aboutyourself and it can really wear
down your self-esteem.
And you know, there's even thisthing called projective
identification where if they seethat you're a monster, they'll
(45:48):
sometimes act in ways that willbring that out of you.
Right?
I'm my worst self around peoplewho tend to project that onto
me.
Eventually I do snap back and Ido say mean things, and I can
be aggressive in ways that I Ifeel bad about.
But then I think, you knowwhat?
(46:10):
I'm not that's not all of me.
I have many relationships wherewe respect each other, we're
kind, we communicate, they seeme as a good person, I see them
as a good person.
Of course, we all have flaws.
And I'm not going to let thisperson's insecurities projected
(46:31):
onto me become my whole being.
So easier said than done.
But don't let it gaslight you.
So if you are noticing you'rein this kind of relationship,
check out resources, educateyourself, learn about
projection, um, learn aboutsplitting, and read books like
(46:52):
Loving Someone with BPD bySherry Manning.
Um, and this is also all theskills that we teach in Cool A
Mind, our program and communityfor loved ones of people with
mental illness or addiction.
These are the kind of skillsthat we teach: how to recognize
when someone's projecting atyou, how to strengthen your
(47:13):
sense of self, and how to staygrounded in your reality when
you love someone who is justbreaking themselves into little
pieces and throwing the badparts at you.
So thank you so much forlistening tonight.
If you have any questions orrequests, or just want to tell
(47:34):
me your story, click send me atext at the top of the show
notes.
And please leave a five-starrating on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify and share this with afriend who really needs to hear
that they are not the bad guy.
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(47:55):
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Thank you.
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey little helpers, it's Dr.
Kibbe here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people youlove.
Coolamine is the onlinecoaching platform and community
that I built to support you inthe moment when you need it the
(00:22):
most, like having hardconversations, asserting your
needs, or setting boundaries.
Even if you're just curious andwant to chat about it, book a
free call with me by going tothe link in the show notes or
going to coolamine.com,K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click
get started.
Thank you and enjoy the show.
Welcome back, little helpers.
It's Dr.
Kippy here, and I'm going totalk about a topic that I find
(00:44):
fascinating, which isprojection.
So if you have ever walked awayfrom conversations with someone
always feeling blamed and amonster and like you were the
villain or the problem, but youhave no freaking idea what
they're talking about, thisepisode is for you because that
(01:06):
could be a side of projection.
So imagine being blamed forhaving intentions or actions
that really feel out ofcharacter to you, or that you
really don't remember happening.
Like someone insisting that youare trying to hurt them or
accusing you of faults thatyou're like, what?
(01:28):
No one sees me that way, or Idon't remember that.
That actually might be asituation that's common when you
deal with someone with apersonality disorder.
So I'm gonna talk about how,like what projection is, and how
people with something likeborderline personality disorder
(01:48):
or narcissistic personalitydisorder, even trauma, may
project parts of themselves thatthey don't like onto you.
So I'll talk about why ithappens and how it feels so
gaslighty, and what the theoryand therapy behind uh this
behavior actually tell us.
And then, of course, I'm gonnatalk about what to do when you
(02:10):
feel like someone's projectingall their stuff on you.
And I want to say that I'm I'mtalking about gaslighting
because it when someone projectsthemselves, their insecurities,
their feelings onto you, it canmake you feel crazy.
It can make you doubt who youare, it can make you doubt what
(02:31):
happened.
I have a terrible memory, soI'm really susceptible to
gaslighting in general.
When someone says you did this,you were thinking this, and I
go, I'm pretty sure not.
I'm pretty sure I don't havethose and like I didn't do that.
I don't know, but I get soconfused.
And then I feel in thosemoments gaslit, but when we talk
(02:51):
about gaslighting, I see thison the internet all the time.
When we talk about gaslighting,people think it's just like
when an evil narcissist tries tomake you, you know, doubt
everything about yourself,right?
And it it's almost talked aboutas deliberate, like your
partner intentionallyquestioning your own sanity in
(03:12):
order to, you know, get powerover you.
And that does happen a lot ofthe time, but often gaslighting,
especially with projection, isnot intentional, right?
It's not like they are doing itto confuse you and make you
doubt who you are, it's just acoping mechanism.
Projection is a really crappycoping mechanism.
(03:33):
So, what is projection?
Projection is a psychologicaldefense mechanism where a person
unconsciously blames their ownunwanted feelings, traits, or
impulses or thoughts ontosomeone else.
Right?
So there they are, someone isinsecure about something or
(03:56):
hates a part of them and theyblame someone else for that.
They never go, oh yeah, I havethat part and you do too, or
whatever.
But it's like, no, you are meanto me.
You are judging me, you areangry.
Right?
And the reason why people dothat is out of shame, of deep,
deep shame.
So instead of acknowledgingsomething uncomfortable in
(04:17):
themselves, like, oh, I havethis part of me that I really
don't like.
unknown (04:22):
Right?
Dr. Kibby (04:22):
Instead of doing that, they say, no, no, no, I'm
not like that at all.
I'm not angry.
You are the angry one.
Right?
Sometimes partners who are, youknow, think about cheating or
thinking about or even cheatingthemselves might accuse their
partner of being unfaithful,right?
By being like, yeah, I don'tlike this part of me, so I'm
(04:42):
gonna blame you for it.
This is a really, as you canimagine, really bad defense
mechanism.
But it's how some people learnto survive and learn to um cope
with oh, there's there's thingsliving inside me that I hate and
(05:04):
I don't know what to do aboutthem.
But unfortunately, thisdefense, first of all, distorts
reality.
Like makes them think, I'mperfect.
I'm not like that at all.
I am passive, I'm a victim.
I can't, I'm not the one whocauses problems at all.
And then they just cut out awhole piece of reality.
(05:24):
It allows people to avoidconfronting their guilt or their
shame or even self-hatred bypushing it on other people.
This is one of the most classicpsychological concepts because
it's like such a Freudian thing.
This is how psychodynamic andpsychoanalytic therapy really
(05:46):
got there, got there like breadand butter, because Freud first
identified projection like overa century ago.
And clinicians have sinceobserved that it's really common
in people with like reallyfragile self-esteem and little
self-awareness.
We all project things onto eachother, right?
(06:09):
Like the way we've learned tosee ourselves and the world, we
see in other people.
That just happens.
But usually it's kind of likeonly sometimes.
Um, and when push comes toshove, you'd be like, oh yeah, I
was, I was kind of a jerk,right?
But certain people are socommitted to cutting that part
(06:34):
of themselves out that theymight default on their way of
coping, right?
They use it often, they projectoften and for many
relationships.
And you see that when someonegets really, really defensive a
lot, when they can't take anycriticism, that's like a core
(06:56):
part of borderline andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
If they take any kind offeedback, they're like, no, they
like, they shut it, shut itdown.
They react really badly to it.
Um, or or they either lash outin anger or they spiral in shame
when someone goes, hey, youknow, you did this thing that
wasn't great.
They go, no, they like can'thold it.
(07:17):
They can't say, Yeah, allright, yeah, I can do that.
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm at fault forthat.
I'll work on that.
They can't do that.
It is shoved out.
It's like a threat, it's anexistential threat to the way
they see themselves and theirwhole reality.
So projection is calledsometimes in this personality
(07:39):
sort of world as a primitivedefense.
So we all have a, you know,this is psychoanalytic um uh
theory.
So it's it, this is not uhcognitive behavioral therapy,
it's more of a psychodynamic,psychoanalytic world.
So they call this primitivedefenses, right?
Like this way of thinking thathappened early in life, and
that's how someone copes withthe pain forever, right?
(08:03):
It's you can see, I mean, I seethis in my kid where it's like
something that he doesn't like,it's like, no, no, no, no,
that's not me.
No, I don't want that, I don'twant that.
When we're happy, he's happy,right?
There's like an all or nothingkind of thing.
So emotionally, it feelsimmature because when you grow
up, you're able to hold nuance,hold like good and bad into one
(08:26):
thing and integrate them.
But when you're young, it'slike all good or all bad.
And some people just staythere.
Some people have like a resteddevelopment and are emotionally
immature and stay in the I'meither all good, I'm beautiful,
I'm perfect, I'm I'm successful,I'm I'm a victim, or I'm
nothing.
I'm terrible, I'm weak, I'mterrible, you know, I'm I'm I'm
(08:49):
worthless, right?
It's all or nothing.
So these primitive defenses atthe most extreme level, I'm also
talking about splitting, right?
That's an old term for seeingyourself as all good or all bad.
And then projection is anotherprimitive defense, but it's kind
of like, okay, if I'm eitherall good or all bad, then I'm
(09:11):
gonna be all good, and you'regonna be the one who's all bad.
So all this to say is thatpeople with borderline
personality disorder andnarcissistic personality
disorder, or just emotionallyimmature, externalize the
painful parts of themselves, theall bad.
Rather than saying, like, Ifeel bad or I feel unlovable, or
(09:34):
I'm I'm kind of a jerksometimes, they might insist
that you are treating them badlyor you don't care when really
those feelings started withinthem.
The reason why this happens,there's there's object relations
theory and also a lot ofresearch in identity, where um
it's proposed that the way wesee ourselves and our in our
(09:58):
personality development isreally dependent on combining
all of the different experiencesand relationships you have with
other people into a whole.
So let's say you grow up andyou have some good friends who
see you as a wonderful person,but then you also have people
(10:20):
who think you're a jerk and youhave fights with someone else,
and you mix them all togetherinto an integrated personality.
I'm sometimes good, I'msometimes bad.
You know what?
A really good, a really goodillustration of this was an
Inside Out 2.
So if you haven't seen it,please go watch it because you
could see the personalitydevelopment when it looks
(10:41):
healthy.
In the movie, Riley, the maincharacter, is going through, you
know, different kinds ofrelationships.
She's she's breaking off fromher old friends and getting
together with new friends andseeing herself and experimenting
with different versions of her.
And some are not great.
Like she actually was kind of ajerk to her friends in some in
(11:02):
some moments.
And she goes through this likehardcore splitting where she's
like, I'm the worst, I'm the no,it's your fault.
And then at some point sheintegrates and goes, I'm a good
friend, but I also can be reallyinconsiderate to people
(11:24):
sometimes, right?
So when you're healthy, youdevelop into a whole.
You might still not like thoseparts, right?
Like, you still might not likethe part that's like not a great
friend, but you still go, yeah,that's me.
That's part of me.
It's not all of me, but it'spart of me.
When you go, oh, I'm either abad friend or a good friend,
(11:46):
that's a primitive primitivedefense, right?
So it kind of goes along withthat projection, right?
The idea that you're all bad isso terrible, push it onto other
people.
So with these personalitydisorders, or maybe you even
think about a person in yourlife that's emotionally
immature, it's like they can'thold the two sides.
(12:09):
They can't be like, yeah, Imeant, I meant well, but I also
screwed up.
They go, I meant well, and youscrewed up.
And then you go, did I?
I don't want, I don't think Idid.
And that's the part for theloved ones.
That's the part like theprojectee that is the most
distressing, because you'relike, what is real?
(12:30):
Their view of reality is sodifferent than mine, and and
specifically, reality of who weare in this relationship, right?
So I'll give an example in myown life.
And uh, you know, when I talkabout this, then um uh my mom
could probably have choicewords, but this is just an
(12:52):
example of an argument that Ihad with her recently that
really, really hurt me and wasone of the things I had to draw
the line with our relationship.
But I was going through um, I Ijust gotten my double
mastectomy uh surgery, which isthe most intense surgery I
hopefully will ever get in mylife.
Um, basically replay likecutting out my two breasts
(13:15):
during breast cancer.
And I had tubes coming out ofme, I was bandaged up, and I
just was like so drained.
I um I was so tired and sickthat, and I know that my mom
loves to take uh my son over toher house and play.
(13:37):
But I there was m manylogistics that I just couldn't
handle at that at that moment.
Um, especially because when hecomes back, sometimes when he
came back from my mom's house,he would get tantrumy.
And I and I talked to myhusband and I was like, I can't,
I can't deal with thetantruming.
I can't deal with him thrashingaround while I'm, you know, I
(13:58):
have literally tubes out of mybody.
So I told my mom, like, youknow, like I think this is not a
good idea.
Can you just come over?
Can we just not do that planright now?
He just, my son gets reallytantrum-y and after he comes
back from your house, and I justcan't deal with that.
And she kept texting me.
She's like, why?
Why is it why is he tantrum?
(14:19):
Is this something I did?
Do I feed him something wrong?
I um she kept like looking forthe reason why he was
tantruming, and I was like, Idon't know, I really don't know,
but can you just can you justaccept this boundary, please?
Um and then she kept asking,and I was so stupid.
I mean, I was so sick, and Iwas just like, I was like, maybe
(14:40):
it's the effect you have onpeople.
And what I meant in that momentwas stimulating effect.
So I notice when they play, andit's just very it hypes him up.
And after he gets too hyped up,he gets a little tantrumy.
So that's what I meant.
But she lost her shit afterthat.
(15:01):
She yelled at me, she screamedat me.
I mean, for days.
And that was, and she and shewas saying things like, now I
know who you really are.
You're abusive, you're abusingme.
How could you do this to me?
All I want is to love, and youget you're just the worst.
Like, she just she just saw meas a as the monster.
(15:22):
And I kind of knew, I kind ofexpected that was gonna happen
because every time I say no toher, that tends to happen.
But she was accusing me ofthings that I was like, whoa,
whoa.
And to this day, she stilltalks about that interaction as
abuse.
And she'll even say thingslike, You told me never to see
(15:43):
your son.
You told me I couldn't comeover and see him.
And I've showed her textmessages where I said, Please
come over and see him here.
And I will watch her literallylike look away and say, Well,
well, you were abusive anyway.
Like, she will just not evensee the evidence of the other
side of my reality.
Have you ever experiencedsomething like that?
(16:05):
It's maddening.
It's maddening.
Like, that is the thing that II I wanna I want to take the all
of the way she sees me and whatI was accused of and just be
like, look, look at this.
Am I really that?
Am I really this horriblething?
It and especially with aparent, it like affected me over
(16:30):
the years, and I'm like, am Ithat way?
And I'm wrestling with thisversion of me that I'm like, you
know.
And luckily, after having a alot of relationships, I have a
different identity where I'mlike, yeah, maybe I'm a jerk a
lot of the time, but I'm overalla good person.
You know, people outside of myrelationship with my mom think
I'm a good person.
(16:51):
So it doesn't fully engulf mein the gaslight, but there are
times where I'm like, oh, Iguess I'm a terrible person
who's just abusing my mom.
So this is a really extremeexample, but it can happen with
someone who just has suchintense emotion dysregulation
and also takes noaccountability, has no
(17:12):
self-awareness.
They just take all theirinsecurities and all their
feelings and project it onto theother person.
And the tricky part is thatwhen they project, it's not
completely insane, right?
Because then you would just belike, oh, you're just completely
not in reality.
It's the most insidious and themost gaslighty and dangerous
(17:36):
when it is linked to a kernel oftruth.
So for my mom to say, you werebeing abusive, you were blaming,
you know, a situation on me,and you're saying that I'm bad,
and you're saying that I, youknow, oh gosh, I can't remember.
You say you don't want me here,and you I never can see my son,
(17:57):
blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, whoa, that's allcrazy pants.
But it was linked to a kernelof truth where I was saying,
yeah, something you're doingmight contribute to the
tantrums.
And to this day, like, youknow, if I'm really being
honest, yeah.
I think that when they playreally hard and it's really
exciting, and there's all thesetoys and stuff like that, I see
them tantrum more.
(18:17):
So I, in my mind, I was kind ofblaming her.
I didn't want to say it, like,I didn't, like, it, but yeah,
there's a kernel of truth.
I was like a little judgy inthat moment.
I don't think I was fullyabusive.
I wasn't a monster.
I wasn't telling her she can'tsee her grandson ever again.
But there was that kernel oftruth.
And so when sh when someoneprojects so deeply and it hits
(18:39):
on some truth inside you, that'sthe moments where you're like,
Am I a monster?
Are they right?
I'm not here, I'm also not hereto say that projection or
gaslighting is all like an evilplot that has no basis in
anything.
Like, there's definitely a backand forth here, right?
(18:59):
But it can really fuck you up.
It can really get you confused.
So when you feel like someoneis pushing a version of
themselves onto you, that's whenyou have to step back and look
at it and be like, oh, this is aprojection.
Right?
(19:20):
This is common also innarcissistic personality
disorder because uh NPD, thereit's really it's really all
about self-image.
Um, I had a colleague reallynicely describe it as um a
dysregulation of yourself-image.
So with BPD is a dysregulationof emotion, up and down.
(19:43):
You're happy, you're sad,you're good, about blah blah
blah.
With narcissistic personalitydisorder, it's I'm special, I'm
beautiful, I'm successful, I'mon top, or I'm the worst, I'm
worthless, I'm ugly, I'mnothing, right?
So it's this identity that goesup and down.
And that is such a that's suchan immature way of seeing the
(20:09):
seeing yourself, because it'slike who is one, who is one
thing?
Who is always perfect?
No one, right?
It's like we got some goodstuff and then we have some bad
stuff.
That's like the healthy umpersonality development.
I'm successful sometimes when Ido these things, and I'm not
successful other times.
But people with NPD can'thandle that nuance.
So they are they have such afragile ego that they're like,
(20:33):
hmm, any drop of criticism orany drop of bad or part of me
that is like naughty, I don'twant.
I can't I can't hold it.
I can't hold the nuance.
You have it.
So for many narcissists, thedefault mechanism is projection
because they they can take allthe shortcomings that would be
(20:55):
otherwise super threatening andput it on to someone else,
right?
Whatever that is.
If it's like, um, I'm not theI'm not the abusive one here.
You're the you're thenarcissist, you're the you're
the narcissist, you're theabuser.
I'm a helpless victim.
You know, I'm not the angryone, you're the angry one.
Or even like weakness.
(21:18):
I'm not weak, you're weak.
You're sensitive.
Right?
Have you ever heard anarcissist say that, you know,
get get upset that you're toosensitive, but really they're
quite sensitive about, you know,if anyone says anything bad
about them, suddenly they flyinto like they kind of collapse,
and you're like, wait a minute,you're accusing me of
sensitive.
What's going on?
(21:40):
That's projection.
They wanna, they don't want toadmit that they're sensitive to
criticism.
So it's on you.
Blaming a common thing they dois blaming other people for
mistakes, or they they kind oflike wash it away with
justification instead of like,yeah, fucked up there.
I'm so sorry.
I I tend to be like that.
It's like, well, I did itbecause you made me.
(22:04):
You know, I I made that, Imight have made that mistake,
but it's pretty much your fault,right?
Um, sometimes it could be soextreme that they accuse you of
what they did, um, or accuse youof having thoughts or
intentions that they have,right?
Like, um, you you mean to dothis bad thing.
(22:24):
You mean to to cheat on therelationship.
And it's like, really?
Is that me, or was that you?
So really with narcissisticpersonality disorder, anything
that contradicts this idealized,um fanciful, special self-image
(22:47):
is pushed onto other peoplebecause otherwise it would
trigger deep, deep shame and awhole existential crisis.
Projection is a quick escapehatch.
They see their own bad traitsin you, they get to maintain
that they're perfect.
They see themselves as perfect,which is the only way they
could feel like they couldsurvive.
(23:08):
So they can't tolerate shame.
Um, and often this is reallyunconscious.
I think when we, you know, theinternet talks about narcissist
and gaslighting as like thisevil plot, a conspiracy to make
you crazy, but a lot of the timepeople do it without realizing
it.
Like they're just unaware.
(23:29):
Doesn't make it less harmful,but they're just unaware of what
they were doing.
A really cool example ofprojection.
That's a projection, and theseprimitive defenses of splitting
yourself into all these pieces,good or bad, and just not owning
a part.
A really good example is FightClub.
I could be dating myself atthis point, but because at this
(23:51):
point it's such an old movie,but it was like a movie of my
generation.
But Fight Club with Brad Pittand Edward Norton.
I hope I'm not giving too muchaway, but it's so if you haven't
seen it and want to see it,skip the next few minutes and
just watch it.
It's so good.
But it's interesting, the maincharacter doesn't even have a
(24:14):
name.
So it's Edward Norton, who'sthis like trapped, numb,
everyday man who literally isn'tnamed in the movie, right?
He's nothing.
He can't accept anything abouthimself, is trying to find some
feeling of being alive.
And he tries to do all the bestthings, tries to like do all
(24:34):
the right stuff, get a job,blah, blah, blah, but he just
doesn't feel like a wholeperson.
He goes to all these weirdemotional like support groups to
try to create this feeling ofalive and vulnerable, but it's
just almost like a weirdcompartmentalizing like
humanity, right?
(24:55):
He's just like is going intoplaces where he could feel
whole.
What he does is he creates apart of himself and projects it
onto another person.
So he creates this image ofTyler Durden, who's this
handsome, aggressive, this pureid, right?
It's a spoiler alert, pleasedon't listen to this if you
(25:16):
haven't seen it, but it'sactually a part of the main
character, but he literally seesit as another person.
You don't see it until the end,but it's actually the same
character.
But he is just like, heidentifies as this downtrodden,
like helpless, everyday man thathe doesn't even see that this
really aggressive form of him isinside him.
(25:36):
So that you know, it itprojects onto like literally a
hallucination of another person.
But it's like if he saw TylerDern in other people.
And you could see that when hehas a this character has a
relationship with a woman, shedoesn't know who she's dating.
She's like, one minute you wantme, and you're like, you, you
know, you're sexual and you'reyou're you're aggressive,
(25:58):
whatever.
And the other one, you don'twant anything to do with me, and
you're this other person.
It's because that guy justcan't deal with the fact that he
is both himself and TylerDurden in one person.
And that's that's what happenswith people with BPD and MPD.
So what what do we even do astherapists with someone who
(26:19):
constantly projects, who whowon't take accountability for a
part of themselves?
Well, I really learned how todeal with this in my internship
at um New York PresbyterianHospital when I learned
transference-focusedpsychotherapy.
That's a treatment for umpersonality disorders like MPD
and BPD.
(26:40):
The theory underneath it iswhat's called object relations
theory, saying that weinternalized all these different
relationships into ourpersonality.
We find out who we are bycombining all the relationships
we have over our lives, andthat's who we are, right?
(27:01):
So in TFP, this therapy, thetherapist, kind of like this is
why Freud is so thesepsychoanalysts are pictured like
sitting behind a patient andthe patient just like lying
there.
The therapist is trying tocreate a relationship that is
(27:23):
just like a container for thepatient's inner world.
Right?
They're they're trying to kindof disappear, like be really
neutral and almost likedisappear so that the patient
can fill up this the space withtheir own stuff, you know, bring
in their own baggage, if youwill.
Because what you want is forthe patient to project the parts
(27:48):
of themselves that they hateonto the therapist, which is
called transference.
So, for example, when I wasdoing this, I had a couple
thoughts, but people who hadpersonality disorders that I
worked with, um there was one inparticular who was like a
(28:09):
lovely patient in so many ways,but he was, you know, he would
do things that were quite mean.
He would be put me down a lot,he would laugh at me, um he
would often like question theway I looked, you know, like he
would make like little jabs atme all the time.
And when he started to attachand start to get deeper in our
(28:34):
relationship, he started toaccuse me of judging him, of
thinking badly of him, of makingfun of him.
And that's why in those kind ofpsychodynamic therapy, it's
like the the therapist is almostblank, so it's just not even
putting anything out there todetach to.
It's just like I'm neutral, andthen the patient goes, You're
(28:58):
judging me.
You're not talking becauseyou're judging.
And that is an entryway for theclinician and the therapist and
the patient to explore thatpart of them to be like, Oh,
look at this part that you areso scared of and hate so much
that you're pushing it onto thetherapist.
Where is it coming from?
(29:20):
And eventually maybe creatingsafety so that they can take it
in and learn to deal with it andlearn to own the parts in
themselves that I'm trying toproject.
Really, really difficult.
This is really hard work.
It's really hard because it's,you know, there always is a
kernel of truth.
Sometimes I'm sitting there andI'm tired and I'm like, oh God,
(29:43):
you know, this patient is justso mean to me all the time.
And then he goes, You're beingjudgmental.
You know, he was reading like alittle kernel of truth.
He was maybe like putting moreon top of it, but he was
latching onto the real thing andbeing like, Yep, this is you.
So, what do you do when thathappens?
Well, in that moment, as aclinician, I'm not saying this
(30:04):
is what you should do, but as aclinician, that's when we go,
okay, great.
This is a meat to work with,right?
This is a part of you that youdon't want to own.
But let's explore it and see ifwe could hold it together
peacefully with acceptance.
Takes a long time.
So over time in TFP, youwouldn't kind of like point it
(30:25):
out gently and explore it.
Like, huh?
Interesting.
You think that I'm beingjudgmental in that moment.
Can you tell me, can you tellme more about that?
What feelings are coming upwhen you think of judgment?
When have you felt that before?
You know, did what whatthoughts went through your mind
as you saw judgment in me?
(30:46):
Right?
You're just kind of giving thema chance to explore that
projection, that, that, thatperception of you.
And then you might say thatover and over again.
Huh.
Again, you see that I'm beingjudgmental.
Tell me more about that.
Right?
What does that feel like?
(31:08):
Have you felt judgmental?
Were you judgmental towards meat all?
What did that feel like?
Right.
So you try to hold, take theprojection and look at it
together.
Like, this is all with therapy,isn't it?
Taking the painful parts andlooking at it together.
(31:28):
And not blaming anyone andsaying, oh, this is a hot
potato, you have it, or I haveit.
But it's like, um, let's look,let's examine it and hold it
peacefully together.
Until the patient can slowly belike, yeah, I can be judgmental
sometimes.
And I judged you in thatmoment.
(31:49):
And, you know, I thought thatyou were being judgmental, but
you know, I was, I was, I wasthinking that too.
Then you're like, okay, he'sable to take in that piece.
Um, and you want to like, inthat, in that moment, what
you're trying to do is helpingthe patients own their
projections.
It might take so long becauseit might be so threatening.
(32:12):
It might be the worst, it mightbe their greatest fear, right?
They might have been judged orabused or been hurt by someone,
like their parents or whatever,all their life, and they were
like, I never want to be like mymom.
I never want to be like my dad.
They're so judgmental.
And admitting that they can bejudgmental, that they've learned
(32:34):
it and it lives inside them,and they can be like their mom
or their dad or the abuser is sois a horrible thought.
So they're like, nope, I'm notan angry one.
I'm not judgmental, you are.
But it eventually it could belike, yeah, I could be angry and
I could be mean.
And I hate that because that'swhat my mom did to me.
(32:57):
But yeah, so now that I couldown it, I could work on it, I
could soften around it, I couldforgive myself, I could see
where it comes from, and I cansay, you know what?
I can be mean a lot, but I'mlearning to work with it.
I'm learning to hold it.
So in TFP, you're working withthat transference, that
(33:19):
projection, and give it back tothe patient.
Really, really hard.
I don't recommend doing thisfor your loved one, but just to
show you like how a clinician,like a specialist, will work
with it.
And it's really tough.
The a lot of our training wasto like really be firm and
(33:40):
sometimes like admit the truth.
Like, yeah, I was judgmental inthat moment, but keep gently
giving it back to them.
That's the hardest part.
When you've when I've hadpatients who just like, you
know, especially with BPD ornarcissism, who just come in
swinging, right?
They're like, you're abusive tome, you're a monster, you never
help me, you think I'm this.
(34:00):
And I'm like, I'm thinking,what?
What are you talking about?
Like, we've you were telling methat I'm amazing and that I
that I'm helping you and thatyou trust me, and now I'm the
monster?
Like, how could you accuse meof of of being this bad person?
But that human reaction of defdefending your reality is
(34:23):
something that we have to trainourselves out of as clinicians,
and we have to be like, okay,this is not me.
This is for them.
I'm not gonna take thispersonally, I'm gonna use this
as part of their healing.
Really, really difficult.
But here's what you do if youhave a loved one who's
projecting all their shit ontoyou.
Of course, same with any kindof gaslighting, reality check
(34:46):
and ground yourself.
Um, that feeling of confusion,of like, what the fuck are they
talking about?
I didn't do that.
That's like that doesn't seemlike me.
Um, I I'm really at I have areally hard time with that
because I have such a badmemory.
But I find it really helpful,first of all, that a lot of my
(35:10):
communications with people areon, you know, text or or email,
so I could kind of see.
But also sometimes I get toreality check with someone who
knows me well.
Um, so I you know, turn tosomeone else, like, is did I say
that?
Am I that kind of person?
Like, what's going on?
Like, look at this text messagewith me, right?
Of course that's bias becauseyou know, those people are going
(35:31):
to take your side, and but atleast it could reality check
that, like, hmm, this is notthis is out of character, or I
don't have a memory of it.
And that's my reality.
Maybe I did do that horriblething, but I don't remember it,
and that's not how I saw thelike my actions.
I definitely didn't intend it.
(35:52):
So it's just just having thatsense of reality in your mind of
who you are, it's reallyhelpful.
This part's really tricky.
I think the gaslighting comesin when if like two people,
you're in a you're in this kindof conflict with someone with
(36:14):
who are, you know, who tend toproject onto you.
And everyone is like you'retreating this projection like a
hot potato.
Like, you're the monster.
No, you're the monster, no,you're the like no one wants to
own it, no one wants to be theproblem.
So you just keep blaming eachother and citing evidence for
why you are actually the one atfault.
No, you are the actual one atfault.
(36:35):
You are the one who doesn'tcare, blah, blah, blah, right?
Get out of that.
Get out of like, who is thesole owner of this terribleness,
this part that no one wants toaccept.
And you could say, okay, let'sjust all own a piece of it.
Right?
Even if there's grounding intruth, in a kernel of truth, own
(36:57):
that part.
Take accountability for what'strue.
Right?
I I did try this with my mom.
I could have, I could have donethis stronger.
And I, you know, but yeah, inthose moments, I was so tapped
out and so like frustrated.
I was just like, yeah, maybe,maybe it is your stimulating
energy or effect on people thatis doing this to Jackson and
(37:19):
making this all complicated.
Like, yeah.
I don't think I'm abusive, butown that part, right?
And check in with yourself andcheck in with other people who
know you, right?
And eventually you might getbetter at doing this.
(37:41):
Not internalizing thatprojection.
Don't internalize the blame.
Remember that projection isabout them, not you.
You might have given a littlelike seed of something, and they
just like let it bloom, butprojection is really something
that they're struggling with.
There's a part of them thatthey don't want, and they're
(38:03):
just trying to give it to you.
They're trying to do there-gifting where they got a
wedding gift, like, you know,the bread maker that they don't
want, so they're trying to shoveit onto you, be like, you know,
that's yours now.
What you shouldn't do in thatmoment is play the game of blame
there.
Right?
Don't be like, oh, I am themonster, I am the worst.
(38:26):
Maybe they're right, or it'sall their fault, right?
Don't go, it's all you or it'sall me.
Think to yourself, this is aprojection.
These accusations,insecurities, are more about
what they're struggling withinside.
And maybe there's part of itthat's true about me, but it's
(38:47):
not my whole character.
It's not who I am.
Um and then please don't dothis.
I I'm so at fall to doing this.
It's horrible.
But I quickly go into trying todefend myself, right?
(39:08):
Trying to be like, wait, no,I'm I'm not, I didn't mean
anything bad by it.
I I I was talking about, Iover-explain.
Don't over-explain.
When someone is projecting alltheir insecurities onto you, and
you're like, whoa, that's notwhat happened, don't go into the
over-explanation like I do.
(39:31):
Don't give all the evidence forwhy you would never be that
kind of person, or theinsecurities are not true, or I
know it's so tempting, and I, asI say this, and I'm able to do
this so well as a clinician, butin my personal life, when my
(39:51):
mom says, like, you hate me,you're the monster, and you're
the yeah, you told me you cannever, I can never see my
grandson again.
I'm like, wait, no, let me showyou all of the evidence, and
maybe if I show you my reality,then it will solve the problem
and you'll be happy because thishorrible monster that you're
accusing me of isn't real.
You're welcome, right?
(40:12):
Don't do that.
And it's so hard to do whensomeone is accusing you of being
a like someone who's a villainthat's out of your character,
right?
When you feel like thatcharacter attack, of course you
want to defend yourself.
Of course you get angry.
But don't do what I do and gointo all the defenses and the
(40:35):
counter evidence against whatthey're saying.
Because it's not an it's not arational conversation, right?
They are feeling, they'refeeling such deep levels of
shame that they can't even feelthe shame, right?
They they're like, oh, I hatethis part of myself so much.
I'm gonna push it onto you, andI'm I can't even tolerate what
(40:57):
it what it would mean if I ownedpart of it.
That's such an emotionalresponse.
They're in a primitive defensemode.
Your logic is not gonna work.
Okay.
So don't get into the back andforth.
You could validate the emotionbehind it.
You could say, I totally getthat you feel judged, that you
(41:24):
feel hurt.
Um I'll admit I did, I didjudge in that moment.
However, I get that you'refeeling really hurt and it's not
my intention.
That's not how I remember it.
I just I'm I'm here and I loveyou.
Or you could choose to walkaway, be like, you know what?
It doesn't seem like this is mystruggle.
I'm here if you want to talkabout, you know, struggling with
(41:47):
these kind of feelings, but I Ireally, I really am not gonna
sit here and be blamed for beinga monster, right?
As I'm saying this, I'm alreadylike, but what if they are a
monster?
You know, so it it it is reallytough, but how about this?
You're not gonna get anywherein a conversation by trying to
(42:10):
figure out who's the monster,who's the problem.
A lot of people get into thesefights by being like, there is a
there's someone who is at faultand they're the all bad, and
we're gonna figure out who whichone it is.
You're not gonna win.
You might have done somethingthat you regret, the other
person does something thatregret.
(42:30):
So try not to do a hot potatoof trying to figure out who to
blame and be like, all right,let's own our parts, and then
let's figure out a way forward.
But when you're seeing theprojection, think to yourself,
this is a projection.
I'm not gonna take this as asign of who I am as a person.
(42:51):
I'm gonna validate the emotion,and I'm gonna tell them I care,
love, or whatever, and I'mgonna walk away because it's not
gonna be healthy to allow themto project all over you.
It's not gonna, it's not gonnamake them feel better.
I mean, it does in the shortterm, but in the long term, uh,
it doesn't really help becausethey keep doing it, right?
(43:14):
And I'll also say don't do themistake I I I still do, which is
holding out hope that they'llaccept that part of them that
they won't accept when someoneis committed to projecting their
(43:34):
insecurities or the parts ofthemselves they hate onto you,
it's so painful and it it justlike throws you into a state of
uh existential and identitycrisis.
Like, am I this monster?
And you might crave thishealing fantasy, you might crave
(43:57):
their accountability for themto finally say, Yeah, actually,
I accuse you of being an abuser,but I can be abusive sometimes
too.
I can be really hurtful.
Oh, even if I say that outloud, it just like imagining
someone like takingaccountability for that is so
(44:18):
relieving and would just allowtwo people just to be
individuals and not like allgood or all bad, like the the
villain and the protagonist,right?
So don't do what I do and don'thold on to the dream that
they'll finally change andaccept that part of themselves.
There's nothing you can do topush that to happen.
(44:42):
They gotta slowly learn totolerate the shame, tolerate the
parts of themselves that theydon't like, and become a whole
person.
Grow up.
And you can't force that.
You can't force that in them.
All you can do is neutrally belike, okay, this is a
(45:04):
projection.
I love you, I care about you,but I'm not taking this on.
I'm not let a therapist dothat.
Let the therapist try to usherthe projection back into their
into their identity and sense ofself.
And most importantly, beself-compassionate.
If you are the type of personwho, like me, works with or is
(45:28):
close to a lot of people whotend to project, it can really
shake everything you think aboutyourself and it can really wear
down your self-esteem.
And you know, there's even thisthing called projective
identification where if they seethat you're a monster, they'll
(45:48):
sometimes act in ways that willbring that out of you.
Right?
I'm my worst self around peoplewho tend to project that onto
me.
Eventually I do snap back and Ido say mean things, and I can
be aggressive in ways that I Ifeel bad about.
But then I think, you knowwhat?
(46:10):
I'm not that's not all of me.
I have many relationships wherewe respect each other, we're
kind, we communicate, they seeme as a good person, I see them
as a good person.
Of course, we all have flaws.
And I'm not going to let thisperson's insecurities projected
(46:31):
onto me become my whole being.
So easier said than done.
But don't let it gaslight you.
So if you are noticing you'rein this kind of relationship,
check out resources, educateyourself, learn about
projection, um, learn aboutsplitting, and read books like
(46:52):
Loving Someone with BPD bySherry Manning.
Um, and this is also all theskills that we teach in Cool A
Mind, our program and communityfor loved ones of people with
mental illness or addiction.
These are the kind of skillsthat we teach: how to recognize
when someone's projecting atyou, how to strengthen your
(47:13):
sense of self, and how to staygrounded in your reality when
you love someone who is justbreaking themselves into little
pieces and throwing the badparts at you.
So thank you so much forlistening tonight.
If you have any questions orrequests, or just want to tell
(47:34):
me your story, click send me atext at the top of the show
notes.
And please leave a five-starrating on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify and share this with afriend who really needs to hear
that they are not the bad guy.
By accessing this podcast, youacknowledge that the host of
(47:55):
this podcast makes no warranty,guarantee, or representation as
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof information featured in this
podcast.
The information, opinions, andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation purposes only, and
any reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(48:18):
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only, and do not
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considered or used as asubstitute for the independent
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duly licensed and qualifiedhealthcare provider.
(48:40):
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call
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