Manifestation: Path to Your Dreams or Just Wishful Thinking?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Little Helpers, we have anexciting one today.
We talked about it a little bitearlier and we were going a
little bit out of our wheelhouse, but also I think it's very
much in our wheelhouse.
The episode is Manifestation.

(00:21):
This is going to be part one.
I think we're going to attemptto do a part two of us actually
acting as if we believe inmanifestation, almost
manifesting our manifestation,and see if we notice any changes
.
But for now, we're going totalk about, like, what the
science actually says and whatwe know about why manifestation

(00:44):
may or may not work from aclinical psychology perspective.
Um Kibbe, how can Kula Mindhelp with manifestation?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:53):
Well, some of my manifestations will be to
grow the Kula Mind community aswell as Instagram.
So I don't even know if you'reallowed to manifest those really
specific things.
But, yeah, kula Mind is ourcommunity and skills group and
platform and all the things tohelp you cope with loved ones

(01:14):
who are struggling with mentalillness.
So if you love someone who'sexploding in anger or drinking
too much, having a drug problemor just someone who's difficult
in your life and you need helpand strategies and support,
check out Kula Mind.
The link is in the show notesor you could check out
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom or Kula MindK-U-L-A-M-I-N-D on Instagram,

(01:38):
because that's you know, youcould also help me with my
manifestation of growing thisamazing community.

So we've been looking forward to
doing this episode for a while.
I forget we mentioned it on adifferent episode and I was like
we should do a manifestationepisode.
And then you're kind of like,nah, probably because as
scientists we hear manifestationand we poo, poo it a little bit
.
What I can say is that I wouldthink of manifestation itself as

(02:07):
kind of bullshit, but also likethere are clearly signs, there
are clearly elements of it thatwe know work as therapists.
I then went to the christeningof my godson and my.
The parents are, like both mybest friends and they're very,
very smart people.
Um, they do a lot of likeresearch and everything and

(02:30):
they're they're kabbalists andlike gnostic christians I think.
Actually, she is kabbalah, heis gnostic, and they go to this
gnostic church and, um, they'revery into like hardcore
meditation practices andmanifestation practices and they
were telling me about theirexperiences with meditation and

(02:51):
I don't know like how much I buyit, but when my own friends,
who I view as very smart andrespect a lot, talk about
something with a lot ofpositivity, I'm more likely to
then like go and explore it alittle bit.
So, um, I've been on at least ameditation journey since then

(03:11):
and have been trying to kind ofopen my mind a little bit to
manifestation Um, and it's ajuicy topic, like I think.
I think there's a lot to getinto.
And then you kind of got onboard, and I know you've been
tell me your experience of likemanifestation.
I don't know, man, I don't know.

I'll believe in anything at this point.
I just I've been on Instagramfor too long, too many hours of
the day these days and I'm justseeing all these like
manifestation influencers, who,I mean, this is what it looks
like to me, without knowing.
You know, really I'm not amanifestation expert, but it
looks like you go think yourself.

(03:51):
Like it's from the the like.
What is it the secret?
Or the laws?
What is it called?
Like this, is it just thesecret?
Yeah, it's like law ofattraction.
You just think, if you wantsomething, it's like law of
attraction.
You just think, if you wantsomething, think it, believe in
it, pretend it's real and thenit'll come to you.
And I'm like at first I waslike, oh, rolling my eyes

(04:37):
because, as we'll get into,there are some problems with
that.
But also there's some thingsthat are kind of true.
There's some things that arekind of true, like, yeah, I just
may be thinking to myself abouthow much lately I the signs of
I'm not good enough or I'm not.
You know, of course, I'm notgoing to be successful.
I'm so stupid.
Blah, blah, blah.
Right, I have so many negativethoughts.
And these influencers are like,yeah, you're attaching these

(05:00):
thoughts and that energy toeverything you do and I'm like,
ok, yeah, there might be.
I might be like self-sabotagingby constantly thinking about
the negative stuff, right, andjust like biasing my view of
just like I'm negative.
I'm negative, what would happenif I just believed in myself,
right, and there's this.

(05:21):
There's this famous story of JimCarrey.
There's this famous story ofJim Carrey, who was super.
Most people should know who heis, but there's some people,
some people didn't know who JimCarrey was.
I was like, oh my God, datingmyself, but Jim Carrey was broke
and not famous and he struggleswith depression a lot.

(05:41):
But he wrote himself a checkfor $10 million for acting
services rendered, dated likefive years into the future, and
he just like carried it aroundwith him right, like he just
believed like this, acting asthough this goal came true.
And then 1995 or 1994, it waslike the Jim Carrey year he came

(06:02):
out with like Dumb and dumberthat paid him 10 million dollars
.
And then he was like AceVentura and the mask, like he's
just, he just exploded, right,and I mean that might not be
exactly a true story, but that'san example of when someone just
goes okay, I have a mentalPinterest board.
This is my goal and I'm goingto get to it and that actually

(06:25):
helps them get there.
So I don't know I'll believeanything at this point.

I mean, I think the you know what you
started with was actually apoint I wanted to make, which is
that I think we can see howmanifestation works when we
think about negativemanifestation.
It actually seems prettyself-evident that when we uh man
, negatively manifest, right,like when we tell ourselves
we're ugly, we're unsuccessful,we're worthless, we suck, then

(06:52):
life starts giving us negativityand, um, for instance, I
struggle with body image a lot,right.
So when I tell myself I'm uglyand fat and old, yada, yada,
yada, I'm going to start likehunching my shoulders and like I

(07:13):
don't know, um, not likepresenting very confidently.
I'm not going to have that kindof glow of confidence that says
I'm hot, I know I'm hot.
Like you know, here we were,you should think I'm beautiful
too.
A lot of times, like, what wefind beautiful is just another
person giving us the confidenceto find them attractive.

(07:36):
Like when another person says,of course I'm beautiful, then
you're, you're much more likelyto find them attractive because
we are drawn to confidence.
We're drawn to other peopletelling us, like, what's true, I
had a friend who was an actressand she kept not booking, even
though she's talented, and Ikind of thought to myself maybe

(07:57):
it's because she goes in therewith this attitude of like the
universe hates me, I never getanything good.
You know, like people suck,they don't like me.
Why, why is it never me?
And I'm like no one's going towant to hire that person, right?
Um, if you tell yourself likethat you just can't do anything

(08:18):
right and you're going to failat everything you try, then
you're probably not going to tryanything.
So when you tell yourself allthese negative stories, it makes
sense that negative things willhappen, or at least non-good
things will happen.
You'll prevent yourself fromgetting good things, and we
would just call that like aself-fulfilling prophecy.
If we say I don't believe ingood love, right, I don't, or I

(08:39):
don't sorry, I don't deserve areally good love, I don't
deserve a really good man, thenyou won't have one because
you'll date, you know shitheadsand so like that's all stuff
that we already know.
And so it would make sense thatflipping the script would at
least have some sort of positivebenefit.

Yeah, I, even right before this, I was
reminded of it.
Just like.
This is all like selffulfilling prophecies, right?
If we walk around with a belief, we're going to look for things
that confirm the belief.
It just is easier than learningsomething completely new, right
?
If we're like, oh, no one likesme and I'm broken, we're going
to look around confirming that,because it's way harder to be
like maybe not Like, what doesthat look like?

(09:18):
Right, you have to changeeverything.
You know.
I just like thinking aboutwanting to grow Coola Mind and
really like boost up thecommunity and make it so useful.
I realized I've been doing thisall the time.
I write to my team members allthe time about, like, what we
need to improve, right,sometimes I'm like I'm not doing

(09:39):
this.
Well, I'm so sorry.
You know, like I'm constantlyfocused on what I haven't done
yet and what I've done badly.
And in the conversation I waslike they were all trying to
work out something and I waslike oh, wait, a minute, I
haven't told you.
I got like five new messagesfrom members saying how useful
it was and how much they lovedit, how they had a breakthrough,

(10:01):
and I just started sharingthose with them and they were
like whoa, I had no idea youjust been saying that this was
like, this was a problem or thatthis bug on the app doesn't
work, whatever that.
As soon as I was like wait aminute, if I just keep putting
forward this negative view, it'sjust going to like it just,

(10:23):
it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But if I'm like wait a minute,I've like the cool mind.
Community is already awesome,you know, look at all these
great stuff that's happening.
Yeah it just.
I mean it's just.
It's just like training yourattention to.
There's so many things going on, good and bad, and what do you
want to focus on?

well, I mean, I think that's part of it
.
I mean, you're talking aboutconfirmation bias, like if I
have a belief and then I willstart noticing things that
conform to that belief and thatwill build my worldview.
But I also think that there's agenuine.
I think that manifestation cangenerate actual change.
Like we notice this with artall the time.
The time.

(11:10):
If we have a painting, like anabstract painting, and I am
somebody who owns an art galleryand I tell everyone this
painting is complete trash, it'sso ugly, oh my God, Don't you
think so too?
Everyone will be like, oh yeah,you're right, that's ugly, and
they'll genuinely think it'sugly.
But if you go in there andyou're like this is fucking
avant-garde, this isiconoclastic, oh my God, the
artist who did this is justbrilliant.
Have you ever seen anythinglike this?
And all of a sudden, peoplewill start seeing it in a
different way.

(11:30):
That's not necessarilyconfirmation bias, like.
I think confirmation bias is apart of this right.
Like, if you are only lookingat the negatives in your life,
then you'll start seeing onlythe negatives and then you'll be
less happy, only the negatives,and then you'll be less happy.

(11:50):
But also, if you, if you act asif, or if you start believing,
you know, in the good, it's notjust that you'll see more good.
It's that you'll generate moregood because you'll influence
other people.

Yeah, yeah, I always yeah, it's like in your
behaviors too.
Like what kind of opportunitiesdo you see?
What do you what?
What do you?
Oh yeah, when it comes to otherpeople.
That's what I always foundfascinating with like
influencing other people,because I inherently do believe
that when you, when you believeyou're, you know, when you act

(12:23):
confident or believe yourselfconfident, other people will
take that too, especially ifit's like putting a value on a
piece of art which is like thatis like that's objective, like
what, what we value, what likewhat?
What do we think it's worth?
But if you do it on yourself, ifI'm walking into a room with a
bunch of strangers and they'relike who's Kibbe and I act like

(12:43):
I'm the shit and that everyonehas treated me well, they're
going to I, I.
This is my, my theory thatthey're like oh, based on the
data of her entire life, peoplehave treated her like the shit.
So I only have this one pieceof data her walking in her room.
I don't know her, she knowsherself and she is carrying with

(13:04):
her a lifetime of positivefeedback, so she must be worthy,
right?
Same thing with like a piece ofart.
If, like like, historicallyeveryone has found it valuable,
then you're going to find itvaluable Cause you, we walk in
trying to gather informationbased on, like context clues,
right?
So a context clue of like Ialready have all the things

(13:26):
other people are gonna be like,well, I believe you, you're the
one who, who knows more than Ido yeah, absolutely.

Um, so I mean we, we, we know that
there is some value towardssaying, like, if I decide today
to just, instead of tellingmyself constantly that I'm fat
and gross, to tell myself I ambeautiful as I am, I'm super hot
, anybody would be lucky to haveme, jason, wow, what a lucky

(13:55):
guy.
You know like, um, people aregoing to find me beautiful.
Then there's like I would thinkthat there would be a
measurable difference in the waythat people respond to me,
because and if I can make myselfgenuinely believe that, then
great.
There has been a study shownshowing, however, that if you

(14:15):
don't really believe like thisis it's such a struggle, right,
because I'll have clients whojust beat the shit out of
themselves mentally.
They like tell themselvesthey're ugly, they're
unsuccessful, you know thatthey're a loser, they can't do
anything right, and it'sfrustrating because I'm like,
okay, how does that help youtelling yourself that?

(14:39):
How does it help?
And it it doesn't.
You know I mean, for for somepeople, being harder on
themselves helps them, like getthe motivation to try even
harder, but for the majority ofpeople, I would say it mainly
just tanks their motivation andjust makes them feel like they
can't do anything, that they'llfail at anything they try.
So it's like how is thishelping?
Can we?
Can we change this?

(15:00):
And I, you know affirmationshave a super cheesy connotation
to them, so I always hesitate tosuggest them.
But at the same time, if youstart changing the way that you
talk to yourself, if you startchanging the way that you think
about yourself, that can havepower.
The problem is apparently thatif you start saying things that

(15:21):
are really hard to believe, thenthat can actually make you feel
worse about yourself.
Um, and that's like kind of atricky thing.
If I were to tell myself Iweigh 115 pounds, then that
would be tough because,objectively, I do not weigh 115
pounds, so why would I everbelieve that?
Right, and then I'm justbasically focusing myself on
this reality that, like isn'ttrue, and then I'm just going to

(15:41):
notice the Delta between whatis true and what isn't true and
that, like isn't true.
And then I'm just going tonotice the Delta between what is
true and what isn't true andthat's going to make me feel
worse.
Um, yeah, but I guess you know,if I start from, I'm a complete
piece of shit and kind of workmyself up to like well, there
are actually worse pieces ofshit than me, and I'm like

(16:04):
possible.

Well, you can train up.
Well, you can trade up.
Wait before.
Okay, before we dive into likewhether it works, can do you
actually know?
I don't know.
Do you know what the definitionand limits of manifestation
actually is?
Because?
Is it any goal?
Is it like like?
Can you manifest?
Like like I've seen, you know,on Instagram?

(16:25):
Like manifest wealth right,there's like like tangible
outcomes.
Or is it like manifest beauty?
Or like what?
What can you manifest?
What can't?

you.
Well, I think, given that thisis not a scientific construct, I
don't know that there's much ofa definition I mean I think, I
think my friends would say likeyou can't, first of all, you
can't manifest things for otherpeople necessarily, although she
did why?

not because so manifestation could only be
selfish.

For your own gain, I mean I'm I
would have to talk to her againbecause basically she's like,
okay, she did actually manifestsomething for me.
She really hated my ex-fianceand um she.
All she manifested was that hewould show his true face to me

(17:24):
before we got married.
And she specifically chose thatbecause she's like I cannot
manifest that they break upbecause it's not my life, it's
not my desire.
That's like fucking withsomebody else's trajectory.
That's not right.
You know who am I to say thatthis person is right for her or
wrong for her?
You know who am I to say thatthis person is right for her or

(17:47):
wrong for her?
So she's like, can't manifestsomething like that.
But could I, could potentiallymanifest just that that she sees
the reality of what she's inand then makes a decision that's
right for her based on that.
Whatever she wants to do, aslong as she understands the
truth, is good.
So that's what she attempted tomanifest okay.

But so this friend, yeah, was very helpful
but very instrumental in beingvery vocal about like this this
partnership is problematic.
Like she didn't like yeah, Imean, I think it might be
interesting that it's what shefocused on.
What she decided to manifestwas like not some, not like a

(18:32):
particular outcome, I guess, oror like, uh, like you gotta
break up or not, but like I justwant her to see and make her
own decision.
So it gave you, gave you someagency.
But to be fair, it wasn't likeshe just manifested and then it
happened.
She did stuff.

Like she was like, hey, everyone
should notice this yeah, I mean,I think I think when she
because she actually believes inlike the universe's energy and
not actually having sway, and Ithink when she was leaving it up
to the universe, she's like Ican't have too much of a hand in
this, the universe has just gotto show her the truth, and
that's it.
That's all I'm going to ask for.

(19:08):
But she herself can still haveagency and say he's a piece of
shit and it's like tell me that.
But.
Yeah, I mean, but, but you're itis true, there is this problem
of like well, do we want peopleto just manifest by sitting
there thinking to themselves oh,I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'm

(19:28):
wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'mwealthy, I'm wealthy.
Okay, yes, now we'll wait andsee what happens.
That that would not be good.

Yeah, okay.
So it's not a passive thingwhere you just like want
something and then it comesright, which is kind of how it's
advertised a lot of times justthink and it will come.
What I don't fully understandis and if anyone listening knows
more about manifestation in areal way, you're welcome to like
send us a message and tell usabout it, because I honestly
don't know, but from what I read, it's a new thought philosophy

(19:57):
that became popular around likethe mid 2000s with the book the
Secret, I guess, and it's likeit's like there's a mystical
part to it.
Right, it's like you couldraise your vibration and
manifest these things, and Idon't fully understand that part
, although when I hear it,there's a part of me that's like

(20:20):
roll, eye rolly.
But then there's another partthat's like oh, that feels so
nice, like that just felt, likeI don't have to do it.
It just feels like there'ssomething outside of my thinky
things, like my efforts, myover-functioning, that can
magically make this happenwithout me having it releases

(20:41):
some responsibility and burden.
When I hear vibration, but thenI'm like, what the fuck is that?
Like?
What do you mean?
Vibration where?
Yeah, I mean, I think what doyou mean?
Vibration where?

Yeah, I mean I think okay, like the
like these friends right, have aspiritual approach to
manifestation and, um, they willdo manifestation after deep
meditation and it's likeenergetic meditation where
they're like pulling energy fromthe core of the earth, or like
I'm doing this meditation seriescalled the gateway experience,

(21:11):
and what I'll say is that Idon't know if this shit
manifests anything but in termsof putting you into a deeply
relaxed state and like puttingyou into different mental states
.
It is amazing, Like I've neverexperienced anything like this,
and part of the gatewayexperience is you have like an
energy conversion box where youlike put all of your negative,

(21:33):
like all of your concerns andyour physical body and
everything like into this boxand you shut it.
And then you do this um, likeenergetic practice where you're
like sucking, you're basicallyjust breathing in air up to your
head and that's supposed tolike breathing good energy into
your head, and then you areblowing out, while humming, old,

(21:54):
stale energy and then you makethis energetic balloon around
you of the new energy and thenyou go into these like altered
states.
Okay, From a scientificperspective, is this universe
energy shit?
I don't know Like no, there'sno evidence, right?
That manifestation is aboutlike harnessing the universe's

(22:16):
energies, at least not in thepsychological research.
Um, that's going into thespiritual realm and so you kind
of have to decide for yourselfwhether that is like legit or
not.
Um, all I know is that, likeyou know, meditations, hypnosis,
they can put you into alteredstates of consciousness, and
then is there a connectionbetween that and manifestation?

(22:39):
My friends believe it, but myfriends are not like you.
Listeners have no reason tobelieve my friends.
They're just like my friends.
Um, so so I, you know, I don't,I don't know.
That would be the argument that, like, I am actually harnessing
the universe's energy to likechange some sort of like

(23:00):
energetic fabric around myself.
That aligns me more with mygoal In the psychological
research.
There's actually a problem withjust visualizing nice things,
like visualizing your goals, andthe actual better way to do it
is to visualize the steps andeffort it takes to get to that
goal.

Yeah, I mean I actually do believe in energy
and I mean I still read tarotcards and you know I was a yoga
teacher time and and I seenamazing things when I went to
Thailand and there was likesometimes like energy transfers
between people that I reallycan't explain in any other way,
like people were able to walk,you know, just from a massage.

(23:44):
Essentially it was crazy.
But so I do believe that thereis a lot that we don't
understand and, just to you know, wash them away is not real.
I don't think it's fair.
I, just I.
And actually, when you just didthe part that we know from
science actually stimulates thevagus nerve.

(24:04):
You know that's, that's umpaste breathing right To like
breathe out and make noise.
And even in Sanskrit this wasso cool.
I wish I knew, I wish I knewmore of the details.
But in Sanskrit that wasSanskrit is used for you know
those mantras and chanting,because Sanskrit is actually a

(24:25):
very physical and and I've gotmusical language that uses
different parts of the mouth andintentionally will vibrate like
different sounds, will vibratedifferent parts of the body,
like different parts of yourupper, upper throat or back of
the neck or whatever, and that'ssupposed to stimulate different

(24:46):
chakras or different energycenters.
So they're, they're I mean like, not awesome, like, but it's
just there.
I don't know what I'm talkingabout.
I'm just saying like, I thinkthere is something about that, I
just, but there's also a partof me that gets like crabby
about the whole.
Like I just raise my vibrationand get wealthy.
Yeah, that just bothers me.

I don't know why.
What does?

the thing on the biggest group do, like the
pace breathing from dbt.
When you breathe out for a longperiod of time, like right,
that stimulates yourparasympathetic nervous system.
And I think there's someparticular um, uh now I'm
forgetting but like different uhrestrictions of your throat.
When you, when you like,breathe out, or like the oceanic

(25:28):
breathing in in yoga, thatrestricts your throat, so it
pushes on the vagus nerve, so itactually calms you down as well
.
That's why you get a littlelike loopy, because like we go
or something like that, like oh,like you're actually tensing

(25:49):
don't do it exactly like I did.
It's just, it's horrible, but itactually like, not like.

Right now I feel a little bit
lightheaded because I just likestimulated like my vagus nerve,
and so I feel a little likeheady, cool yeah yeah, I mean
the gateway experience I believewas developed at washington
university for st, at st louis,which is like a super legit
school that waitlisted me backwhen I applied.
Um, so I mean, it's like it'sit uses bilateral, like uh, uh,

(26:20):
audio stimulation.
Like you have to wearheadphones when you do it and
you get like different sounds ineach ear, and um, it like uses
a kind of hypnosis.
It's it's really cool.
Um, so there, you know there'slike science behind it.
But yeah, I mean, of coursethere's something bothersome
about saying like if you justvisualize, you know being

(26:41):
wealthy, then you'll get wealthy.
It seemingly undercuts all ofthe effort that people put in in
order to obtain their goals infavor of just sitting around and
like thinking about it orwishing for it.
Um, so yeah, I mean I think alot of people, probably a lot of

(27:03):
people who have gotten throughyears and years of school or um
entrepreneurship or effort ofsome kind, are going to hear
this and be like come on.

Yeah, and I think that, especially on social
media, it's something that'sthat feels really good for us as
a culture.
Is the idea that we could get abunch of stuff with very little
effort right?
Like there's some magic that youjust think it and you're going
to get it.
And you know there are a lot ofinfluencers out there who are
like you know, spend money likeyou're a millionaire and you

(27:38):
will.
You manifest oh, I'm going tobe successful and wealthy.
You might invest in certainthings, or you might go for a

(27:59):
promotion, or you might reject aconfidence where people then
invest in you, literally.
But I mean that like thoseintermediate steps are just
wiped out and you're given someaffirmations on social media.
That's just like I, I'm amillionaire, I I don't even know

(28:19):
.
Like I am, everyone loves meand I attract only high value
everything and I'm like, yeah,that kind of primes you to be
open to the next steps thatwould actually get you there.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's an
important aspect of this is,like you know, this shit's going
to work insofar as it raisesyour ability and confidence, or
your confidence in your abilityto take steps and getting
somewhere.
But the risk is that you uhencourage like an obsession in

(28:59):
people where they don't and theydon't feel like they have to
take any steps in reality andall they're doing is like
sitting around fantasy, likewith fantasizing, um, and it's
kind of like well, we know thata lot of people sit around
fantasizing, right, I was justwatching this documentary on
Eminem yesterday and his crazyfans.

(29:19):
So it's like those people sitaround fantasizing about Eminem
all the time.
But that does not.
Eminem does not have 4 milliongirlfriends and boyfriends.
So all those people sittingaround.

I'm sorry.
Where did you hear that peoplewere sitting around fantasizing
about eminem in this document?

well, he's a celebrity.
Of course they're doing this.
All celebrities have peoplesitting around fantasizing about
them, but eminem has like aninsane fan base, like a really,
really, really like dedicatedfan base.
Still, and also like, did youknow the word stan, like I stan?
That couple came from his song.

Yeah, I didn't know that.
That was a thing that peoplesay.
Of course we know that song,but like people are and of all
the celebrities you could betalking about you'd be talking
about like taylor, swift or m&mis the one that you're like, see
if you can fantasize.

I don't know, I know, I know, I know no
, no, this is not.

This is not a dig on eminem.
This is just a question aboutwhy you brought up eminem as the
example of someone whofantasizes about, who gets
fantasized about a lot because Iwatched this documentary on him
yesterday okay all right, look.

And so he has all these rabid fans
right who are sitting aroundbeing like, oh my god, like they
, like they, they'll do anythingfor Eminem.
They, they like, they havebooks where they put, like,
everything about Eminem that'sever been created They'll.
Like, they'll make scrapbooks.
And they like think about himall the time and they write to
him all the time and they talkto their friends about him all
the time.
They go to all his concerts.
Right, like those people aresitting around obsessing about

(30:49):
Eminem but that does notactually bring them in any
closer proximity to Eminem otherthan you know, the proximity of
buying tickets to his events.
There you go, he's not theirboyfriend.

He's not their friend.
Yeah, and I think you'rebringing up a good point.
Like one of the big problemswith manifestation is like that
it promotes just likefantasizing instead of actual,
like goal setting.
And sometimes it's like what'sthe difference when, when jim
carrey wrote a 10 million dollarcheck for himself, right, like
that is just as fanciful as likeanyone else being like I'm
gonna marry eminem, right, but Imean, but I mean, this is just

(31:34):
an aside, it's not really anaside, but, like those
influencers that I'm talkingabout, there's one.
I don't want to say the account,maybe I should, maybe I'll link
the account on the show notes,but there's an account of this
woman who's, just, like you canmanifest being relaxed, rich.

(31:54):
That's her whole thing, beingrelaxed rich.
So she has this program whereshe copyrighted her own thing of
hypno dance, where you dance totechno music that she makes.
That has affirmations right, Iam wealthy, I am relaxed, I am
rich, right, and all the videosof her are just like dancing in

(32:15):
her like Dubai apartment, right,like you know, listening to her
tracks, which are pretty good.
But like you know, and I waslike huh, I looked into her a
little bit.
I mean, she's.
I'm sure she's a very niceperson, right, trying to do
trying to help people, okay, I'msure she's a very nice person,
right, trying to do trying tohelp people, okay.
But when I looked into it, sheis a trust fund baby.
So her being, like she wrotethings like I manifested this

(32:43):
Dubai apartment.
I'm like, yeah, daddy's,daddy's trust fund manifest.
Like the thing is like there,the, the gaps between what's
possible, right, like if you gofrom, if you just live in this
fantasy with no sight into thesteps towards it, then it just
becomes, first of all, that'sjust kind of snake oil, right,
that's just lying.
Yeah, fraud.

Yeah, I mean I saw I have an account
that I follow because she had adigital product where she taught
people how to be fin doms,which I thought was funny and
also sort of tempting.

But I can't because I have to be tell
everyone what that is, because Ididn't know until I saw those
reals.

It's where you make.
Men give you money and I'vetraditionally been decent at
this through any official orprofessional capacity, but
you're you're a fin don hobbyistum, anyway.

(33:44):
So she is now moving into likeaway from fin doming, I guess,
and more about like how to.
I think she's trying to coachpeople into making digital
products and anyways, she did awhole like manifesting wealth
thing by acting as if you're allshe's like.
I went and I did a $20,000 amonth.
I spent $20,000 in a month andafter that I realized I could

(34:08):
never be happy living the way Iwas again, and so I stepped it
up and I, you know, startedmaking it happen so that I would
, and she's like now, $20,000,it's nothing Like that's not
even enough of a month, you know, I just like I gave myself the
life that I needed, that Iwanted.
I spent it all in that month.
And then after that, I was like,okay, I can't go back, I'm just

(34:36):
going to move forward, and likethat's a risky little gambit,
you know.
I mean that is going to work onsome people.
Some people are going to belike, holy shit, I will never be
satisfied with the life I wasliving before.
I guess I should stop likeworking at McDonald's and start,
you know, really applying forgreat jobs and getting education
and moving up in the world.
But a lot of people are goingto be fucked.
So I don't really know whyyou're advising this.

Yeah, yeah, it's cutting out the important
piece, like having access to thesteps there, and I agree that
there's a delicate balance ofbeing able to see that there are
steps there.
A lot of people who are just inthe negative mindset won't just
I'm probably me.
Me obsessing over how I'm notgood enough is probably

(35:19):
literally blinding me toopportunities that I could be
taking right and seeing.
Those are important, but ifthey are not even there, I think
it does.
I think manifestation and theidea is biased against a lot of
people who have actualrestrictions right, like if you
don't have a trust fund, youcan't manifest this apartment in

(35:41):
Dubai.
Or if you like, the FinDom girl, I guess probably has ways that
she can get 20,000 a month, butnot everyone can say that and I
I've heard that you know it'speople who are like under
systemic racism.
You know like feel oppressionor just don't have know so, so

(36:15):
yeah.
And the point about affirmationsis really interesting too,
because I remember when westarted training in you know
cognitive behavioral therapiesand it's I was biased against
the whole, like just think yourway into happiness, but then
trying to figure out like, okay,how can we change your thoughts
?
Like thoughts are important,beliefs are important, so how do

(36:37):
we?
How do we change it?
Do we change it Whatever?
And we were learning I waslearning how to do
mindfulness-based cognitivetherapy groups and how to lead
mindfulness for people who arelike severely depressed and
anxious therapy groups and howto lead mindfulness for people
who are like severely depressedand anxious.
And I asked our supervisor.

(37:00):
I said, why, why don't we dolike compassion meditation?
Because compassion meditationis supposed to be really good
for for depression, right?
Just like thinking about evengratitude and loving yourself
and looking at the good things,like things that I would think
are really helpful, cultivatingthis feeling of like gratitude
and compassion for yourself.
And my supervisor said you know,we tried, but it doesn't work

(37:25):
with people who are severelydepressed, who have really
really low self-esteem and suchentrenched, chronic beliefs that
they're unlovable or hateful orbroken or whatever, that when
you just try to give themaffirmations of I am lovable or
I deserve love.
That is so.
That's basically saying you canmanifest a apartment in Dubai

(37:45):
with no trust fund Like for them.
That felt so far away that theywould actually get more
depressed doing compassionmeditation.
So she was, like you know, atfirst just learning basic
meditation, getting themtreatment, getting them a little
bit better, and then compassionmeditation can come later.
So I think what you're sayingis right with when you have

(38:07):
affirmations or fantasies thatare so divorced from reality, it
just backfires.

Yeah, I mean, I guess in that case,
maybe having a focus instead ondefusing from the negative
self-talk.
So it's like, if you can, atthe very least just calm down

(38:40):
the negative self-talk and like,let in some reasonable
affirmations like I'm okay, um,I'm not the worst person in the
world, it's possible thatsomeone could value me as a
friend.
Um, starting small could behelpful.

But it's interesting, right, because
manifestation actually asks youto do something much more
unrealistic yeah, yeah, I thinkfrom the self-regulation
literature it's like um, it doesmake it more a goal more likely
to happen.
Going from like passivelyfantasizing to making a goal

(39:11):
actually happen is how, likeathletes do visualization right.
It was like, specifically,what's your goal, what does it
look like?
Visualizing what it looks like,but then also the steps to get
there, like actually break itdown into realistic steps that
you can tackle, right?
So even if it's like thinkingright, I'm lovable, it might

(39:41):
actually be feasible to be like,okay, I feel like I'm 100%
unlovable, but maybe focusing onwhat we know is true, even what
I know is true.
I've had one person tell methat they love me.
I have this one success that Icould point to, right?
So it's like just just seeing,just seeing for yourself, like
objective facts that mighteventually lead to the belief
like people do love me, which islike a bigger, bigger belief.

Yeah, I think you know.
I mean another like perk ofmanifestation is just, I think
goals clarification can behelpful in manifestation.
You're supposed to really kindof visualize like the emotion of
if this has already happened,if I am, you know, if, let's say
I'm single, like I'm going tovisualize the emotion, feel the

(40:29):
emotion of being loved byanother person.
I'm going to really like letthat in Right.
Then, theoretically, that cankind of increase your um focus
on that goal and make it morelikely to happen.
Or, like I think a better onewould be, I want to be a standup
comedian.
Like I'm going to reallyvisualize what it's like to get
up there and do a great job andmake people laugh and then wow,

(40:54):
like now I'm really going towant it.
Of course, the downside is, likeI don't know, um, really
increasing disappointment Ifthings don't like turn out
exactly as you imagine them.
Um, I was thinking about thatkind of when I was, like two
seconds ago, talking aboutimagining what it would be like
to be loved by somebodySometimes what we imagine isn't

(41:19):
reality Like when I wouldimagine marriage before.
Um, I don't know, like when I,you know, when I was 25, let's
say it was this like whirlwindof dopamine, like, oh my God,
it's just going to feel like mysoul is on fire every single day
, like I would imagine that allthe time.

The problem is that kind of took me further
away from like you know realityyeah yeah, yeah I mean I it is
tough that there's no actual I Itried looking for this before
this episode.
I tried looking for um researchand I I just can't believe that
people haven't researched thismore, considering how popular it

(41:57):
is.
Apparently, there's a survey of1000 people about manifestation
and one third of people believein manifestation, so it's
really popular and there'sabsolutely no scientific
evidence for it.
So I mean there's evidence forthe things that we're talking
about, which is likevisualization, breaking things

(42:18):
down into actual steps towards aconcrete goal, and there's
confirmation bias where it'slike whatever you believe and
think you're going to likeactually see it in the world,
which might reinforce thatbelief.
But manifestation as like avibrational attraction thing

(42:39):
hasn't actually been studied orproven.
Um and I also.
I got to find this and if I do,I'll share it in the show notes
.
But there was a hilarious umreal, I saw.
There was like a, a video of agirl spinning around and it said
me manifesting my dream house,and then the front there's like

(43:02):
her husband on on the computer,like and my husband making it
happen.

Very gendered, but it was very funny
okay, so my friend's method, andagain, this is one person and
it's all we got it's all I think.
I think she's.
This is the cabala is I don'tknow how to say exactly.
We're talking about cabalas, Idon't know.

(43:29):
I was asking her how because,because, kibbe, you can I say
this You're um entering IVF,okay, so you're doing IVF and
you asked me to come up with afertility um spell and or
manifestation.
So she says, if she's doing it,it requires entering meditative

(43:52):
states and that's the biggestpart.
If she can enter a state whereshe's able to feel and call
energy, that's 90% of it.
Okay.
So already, like you can signup, sort of see this divide,
like she's going with the realenergy, like energy field thing,
like you know, I mean, andshe'll even use she's done
meditative states, usingcrystals, right, where she can

(44:13):
like like she feels, like shecan pull the energy from the
crystal.
I don't, I don't, there's,there's not scientific, we don't
have a crystal.
Is that a problem?

I want us to do this.
I want us to actually manifestsomething now and then and then
later on, we'll tell everyonehow it goes, right?
I don't have a crystal.
Is that a problem?

no, why don't you do?

my house.
Why don't you do?
Why don't you?

take a.
Do I have a crystal in my house?
Why don't you take a deepbreath?
Do the pace breathing with the?
Okay, see if you can create anenergy field around yourself.
All right, so we're doing amanifestation with my friend's
method, okay, my friend's method, and that would be different,

(44:56):
actually, than the method thatwas recommended in the
literature, the scientificliterature.

But this one will be more fun, okay.

so we are going to try to get you into
like an energetic state.
So we're going to do pace,breathing essentially, but what
we're going to want you to do isbreathe.
So you're going to shut youreyes and breathe in um new,
fresh energy into your head.

(45:22):
To kind of imagine this energygoing up your body and into your
head and then you're going torelease it, that old, stale
energy, but you're going to humas you do it.
So Is it about what tone.

I do no.

Okay, and you're going to visualize
this energy coming into yourbody, this fresh energy into
your body, into your head.

I feel a little like loopy, I feel a
little dizzy right now.

Yeah, okay, and then breathe out that
old, stale energy Hold on Okay.
Okay, just keep doing thatuntil you sort of feel like
you're in some sort of alteredstate.

Oh, now.

Okay, around yourself into the earth
and feel kind of imagine thatyour energy from the top of your
head is going into straightinto the center of the earth and
then see if you can pull thatenergy from the center of the

(46:50):
earth back into yourself all theway up into your head okay I
just kind of keep seeing if youcan feel that energy connection

(47:11):
with the earth going all the waydown.
you can visualize it right, likeall the way down from your
apartment through the apartmentsbelow into the ground I don't
remember the different kinds ofmatter in the earth, but the
magma and the silt and shit andgo all the way down to the core.

(47:34):
Stop it All the way down to thecore and pull that energy back
up and into your head and thenbreathe out that stale energy

(47:55):
again with a hum.
Do that a couple more breaths,Okay.
So in this charged energeticspace, I want you to imagine

(48:18):
what it would be like to alreadyhave the cool mind community
that you desire.
Imagine the emotion.
What would that be like?
What would it feel like tointeract with your community?

(49:06):
I?
feel like for people to behelped by Cool of Mind and for
their relationships to change,lay in that space for a while.

(50:04):
Okay, for the sake of ouraudience, I'm gonna call it here
.
My friend would probably belike are you smoking crack?
That that's not what I said todo, but I did my best, it feels
nice.

I mean, I feel it's.
It's interesting.
Okay, can I debrief or am Isupposed to do anything else?
Okay, it was interestingactually picturing the goal,
which is not like in my head.
I'm always like I'm not goodenough, I'm not doing enough,
right, but then I picturedpretty similar things to what

(50:43):
I've already done before, likeso I know it's very much
possible and within mycapability.
The interesting thing I meanmaybe because I was, we were
just talking about this in thecommunity today, about people
pleasing and over-functioningand being in the identity and
role of someone who keeps givingand giving and giving, which

(51:04):
all of us in the community andme like identify with like okay
it's, it's big, it's helping alot of people.
Like it's what I imagine will beawesome would be changing the
way that we even address likecaregivers and loved ones in
mental health treatment, right,like actually seeing like their

(51:26):
family members as importantparts of mental health treatment
.
Like that's something that Ialways want and I want more
people to feel less alone inmental health, in their
depression or their loneliness,right.
I want want more people to feelless alone in mental health, in
their depression or theirloneliness, right.
I want to feel people, to feellike they they're connected.
But something that came up waspicturing how overwhelmed I
would feel Because the bigger Igrow things, the more successful

(51:50):
I've become, the more like, ohmy, I'm just going to have to
keep giving and giving andgiving until I'm drained.
That was the thing that I waslike oh my God, right now we're
small enough that I can dowhatever I want.
I could take rest, I can haveflexibility.
But I imagine when things grow,this is one of the reasons why

(52:11):
I stopped when I didn't want togo forward in academia, because
I was like, if I have a fullfunctioning lab, I can never
like work remotely or travel oryou know I would be beholden.
That's what it would feel likeis beholden Cause I I don't.
I don't ever picture likepeople helping me.

(52:32):
It's more about like me havingmore people that I need to save
and help and carry yeah, I meanright, like what, when?

like what?
What exactly are we supposed to?
Are we supposed to manifest thereality of what it would be if
we got what we wanted?

to manifest just the part that we wanted,
but actually, I think that wasreally helpful because it just
pictured, like what, there wassome block and the block is that
like the idea, like probablymany things, but like the idea
that I would just be drained orI wouldn't, I wouldn't like be
nourished and fed back, I wouldwould just have to keep giving,

(53:13):
giving and I'd be stuck there,which is kind of how I felt with
, you know, my mom Right, soit's just um, it's interesting.

How might that change things, though
?
Does that make you less likelyto want to pursue the goal, or
does it give you insight into,maybe, why you've been like not
wanting to pursue completely?

Yeah, me, me in particular.
I think, yes, I think that I'vestepped away and run away from
like.
Whenever I have gottensuccessful, I've been like oh no
, and I switched to somethingelse and I'm like I'm not
successful because notsuccessful like being
undervalued or being, um, underlook, overlooked.
Right, there's a certain freedomin that.
There's a certain like my mom'snot going to come for me and

(53:59):
try to take everything that Ihave right, I won't be drained.
I could go inward and preservemyself.
I don't have to keep giving,giving, giving.
So I guess I have to figure outhow to like see that
manifestation as something thatcan nourish me as well and I
could still feel rested in thosethose bigger stages of growth

(54:24):
whoa this was much more helpfulthan I thought.
This is, I mean, in a surprisingway, not necessarily um closing
my eyes and dancing and hypnodancing my way into like.

Dubai apartment but you're really
rescuing me from my half-assedattempt at cobbling together
manifestation practices.
I don't understand.

Well, another after this, not, not on the,
not on this call we shouldactually do it for you I mean
you're probably doing it foryourself, right, but it'll be
fun to also what would you, willyou or have you manifested, so
we could check in on the resultsas an N of two study
Manifestation.

We want wealth.

You want wealth.
Is it this vague?
Or is it like yeah, you'regoing?

gonna get a job, so I don't really
know how specific I'm supposedto get you know.
I mean, it's like inside.
Yeah, this is kind of like whenwe learn.
I think this episode issupposed to be more about like
this what does the science sayabout manifestation?
Right, but for our nextmanifestation episode, that's
more about like what is theactual spiritual practice of

(55:37):
manifestation?
and like exactly is it supposedto look?
I don't you know.
One thing she said is like youwant to be.
It seems like there's thisthing around specificity.
It's like you can be.
You can be too specific.
Where she was like I know shedid a house manifestation was

(56:00):
she's like I want a house andthen she bought this really big
house, but she actually hatedthe house.
She was like I didn't actuallymanifest what I really wanted,
which was more of like anemotional experience within the
house, like how I would feel inthe right house.
So it wasn't shouldn't havenecessarily manifested like a
house, like that thing, but youknow the way I really want to

(56:21):
feel within the space that wouldmake me truly happy or
something like that.

So I kind of have to figure that out yeah, I
mean, I understand that from ourperspectives, values, right,
like um, and I I did read thatthere is like positive
affirmations that actually workis uh, talking about core values
or think that you know is true,like my family loves me or I, I

(56:49):
want to, I want to give, I wantto give, I want to help people,
right, you know, with lovedones struggling mental health,
so, yeah, so there might besomething about like really
touching into the value of whatyou want, right, and picturing
it, but maybe not getting sotightly hung up on.

(57:09):
When I say wealth, it meanslike a Dubai apartment, right,
right.
When I say wealth, it meanslike, right, a Dubai apartment,
right, right, um.
One thing I did read is, um,that uh, journaling and
scripting has a lot to do withmanifestation.
That's a big um, that's a biguh strategy where you write out

(57:32):
a narrative of your life as ifyour desire has already happened
.
Like journaling, like writing aday in the life at your dream
job, or a thank you letter, or acheck for $10 million, um.
Or writing your intentions orgoals daily, or using.
I've read that there's aspecific format like a 55 by
five writing an affirmation 55times for five days, something

(57:55):
like that, where there's like aspecific repetitive, like ritual
around writing.
I mean we also know that likethat works with gratitude
journals or writing down thingsyou're grateful for, or isn't
the science of that?

just to get a sufficiently large,
enough number that it becomes areal habit and like gets into
your psyche but I guess itmatters what you're journaling.

If you're journaling like I am grateful
for my son, I'm grateful for myhealth, or whatever, versus like
I'm a millionaire, you knowlike things that are totally out
of your realm of possibility,or like a fantasy right like, or
something that's so unrealisticI don't know, I'm just I just

(58:37):
mean there's.

No, I don't think there's anything
magical about number 55.

Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, just like something
where there's other techniques,so it's like three, six, nine,
like three in the morning, sixin the afternoon and nine at
night or something.

But um uh but yeah, just something
gratitude, gratitude practice.
I mean I don't think of that asmanifestation, but it's
something that gets looped inhere where I mean I.
I just feel like that is againmore to the confirmation bias.
If you start recognizing allthe things you're grateful for,
I mean, you're just gonna be acooler person to be around and

(59:10):
like so much of what we obtainin life are from other people,
if you can be a really coolperson to be around, then the
chances that you're likeabundant multiply a lot.
Yeah, my former friend who likedidn't get any of the acting
jobs, it's like it's kind of asyou like suck as a person, like
people don't want to work withyou, you know, if you've got

(59:31):
like a cloud of negativityaround you, yeah, I think also,
it's like how you treat yourself.

I mean, like these kind of core beliefs or
confirmation biases apply toyourself, but they tend to,
without us realizing it, theyapply to other people, right?
So if I'm grateful for thingsin myself and my life, I'm
probably going to be moregrateful to you and to the other
people I love, and that feelsgood.
If I'm like negative aboutmyself, I'm then going to be
negative about everything I seeoutside, and that's just.

(01:00:00):
You know, then you're like Idon't want someone to like look
at me defensively or criticallyall the time, right, yeah,
that's it.
What do you, what?
What are you?
Okay, you're manifesting wealth.
So when we do, when we're, whenwe do the next season, so we're
going to do like one moreepisode, right, the wrap up, and

(01:00:21):
then we're going to do nextseason, and the next season
we'll talk about the results ofour manifestation right.
Yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:32):
Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:32):
No.

No, no, no.
I'm just trying to think abouthow much clarification I need to
bring to the wealth thing.
It'll probably be somethinglike I wish for money to never
be, or to stop being, a sourceof stress, or to stop, you know,
to feel secure, like to feelsome sort of security, something
like that.

Feeling financially secure.

Yeah, with a swimming pool in my
backyard, something like thatFeeling financially secure?

Yeah, with a swimming pool in my back here.
So get some specifics.
But also like the what.
What does it feel like to to befinancially secure?
What are you going to dodifferently?
What is?
What is the emotion?
Okay, yeah, all right, okay,well, this is baseline measure,
measurement and then we will seein the future what happens.
Right, all right, littlehelpers.

Well, we will at least future what
happens right.
All right, little helpers, wellwe will, at least I'm going to
manifest that we see you nextweek and, um, I am also going to
manifest that we have a hundredthousand million positive
five-star reviews on applepodcasts and spotify and, um,
hopefully, my manifesting thatmeans that you guys actually do

(01:01:35):
it.
So, please, please, rate ushighly and we'll see you next
week.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in

(01:02:07):
this podcast are for generalinformation only, thank you, and
do not constitute the practiceof medical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911

(01:02:28):
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The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
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