April 2, 2025 • 60 mins
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The wounds of high school popularity - or lack thereof - run surprisingly deep. In this episode, we explore how our teenage and adolescent social status continues to shape our self-concept decades later, informing how we navigate relationships, perceive our value, and approach social hierarchies.
We dive into research that reveals the complex relationship between adolescent popularity and adult personality traits, discovering if we have qualities that determine whether or not we're going to be "popular" throughout our life.
The podcast gets personal as we share our own teenage experiences - from the notorious MySpace "Top 8" friendship rankings that could ruin a week, to the Valentine's Day carnation deliveries that made social hierarchies painfully visible. We talk about how these experiences become formative to our identities because adolescence represents our first real attachment to figures outside our families, creating patterns that can last a lifetime.
For those still carrying these wounds, we offer science-backed perspectives for healing. Most importantly, recognizing that high school popularity often rewards conformity rather than originality allows us to reframe our experiences as badges of uniqueness rather than rejection.
Whether you were a queen bee, completely overlooked, or somewhere in between, we offer validation, understanding, and a path toward finally healing those stubborn teenage wounds. Subscribe to explore more topics at the intersection of mental health, relationships, and personal growth that help us all become better supporters to those we love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Little helpers, today we aredoing an episode that I honestly
cannot believe we didn't doyears ago, given how fixated I
was on it for most of my lifeand that is high school
(00:24):
popularity.
I did not know you were soexcited.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I was like what's going on?
You look a little.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, it's because you met me post-bachelor, which
healed my wounds more or less.
Yeah, created new ones.
Yeah, created new ones.
So we're going to talk abouthigh school unpopularity versus
popularity, read a bunch ofresearch and then just, I think,
just talk about our experiencesand how it's affected us,
because I thought for at least adecade after high school about
(00:57):
how it affected me, did you?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I mean, I haven't thought about this in a really
long time, so you will get mythoughts brainstormed and
processed out live.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah Well, anything you want to say about Cool Mind
helping, if you have any.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
If you have any.
You know these emotionallychallenging relationships or
feel low self-esteem inrelationships struggling in
general with a loved one with amental illness.
We can give you skills andguidance for what to do, what to
say to help your loved one aswell as yourself the simplest
way I can explain it.
But yeah, so if you just wantto learn more how we could help,
(01:44):
have any questions, go tocoolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom
and you could just book a freecall with me to talk about what
we do and how we can help youCool.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, I wanted to do this topic because, I mean, just
in general, I think it's reallyinteresting, but I don't even
remember how I thought to dothis.
But I posted a series of pollson my Instagram that were like,
you know, if you were unpopularor specifically uncool I didn't
mean necessarily like activelyunpopular, like disliked, but
(02:19):
like, if you weren't cool inhigh school, does that affect
you today?
Weren't cool in high school?
Does that affect you today?
Um, I had another poll aboutthat too, but I don't remember
what it was.
But basically, a huge number ofpeople said yes, like people
are still really wounded overthis like uncoolness thing in
high school.
Um, I mean, the research isinteresting.
(02:41):
I mean, I think like researchagain, when you have these like
gradated questions like what isunpopular, is that like no
friends?
Is it like deeply uncool anddisliked, or is it just like you
weren't the popular group whichwas more me or me?
(03:06):
Um, it's, you're going to havedifferent answers, but like,
essentially there are.
I mean, there's like definitelystill effects in adulthood of
you know, like your popularityin high school can predict a lot
of things about you, um, inadulthood, yeah, Bad news for
you teens having a rough time, Iknow.
Well, it is kind of concerningwith a, with the teen social
(03:28):
experience being what it istoday, which is essentially
asocial, um, but yeah, I mean Ithink like so in general, you
see, like if kids were unpopularand I think what the research
was talking about was likeactually unpopular there's going
(03:48):
to be all sorts of negativeeffects like depression and
anxiety, stress levels physicalstress levels are higher for
that population Lowerself-esteem, lower social skills
.
It can be hard to tellsometimes whether this is
correlation or causation.
I mean, like there's one kindof pathway where it's like
(04:13):
popular kids got a lot of socialpractice in high school, um,
and so they had like anopportunity to develop social
skills, um, and have like justlike a lot of relationships,
right, I mean, I didn't have aboyfriend in in high school, but
I at least had some datingexperiences that I was able to
build on, you know, going intocollege and beyond Actually more
(04:33):
so in Slovakia.
But if you don't have thatright, then like your first
dating experiences might be incollege and then they to be as
successful as your peers whohave already been dating.
And then it gets pushed laterand later and later and it
becomes more and more of astruggle.
So there's that aspect.
And then there's this aspect oflike identity development and
(04:57):
self-esteem, which I'm prettyinterested in, because I
definitely think that my socialstatus in high school like
affected how I saw myself andyou know how I would behave
around other, like high statuspeople, like longevity.
The result, like the effects ofthis, is when you are in high
(05:19):
school.
That is your first experienceof having like a social
consciousness that's more orless developed.
You know you're pulling awayfrom your parents and so your
(05:40):
peer group becomes much moreimportant and you don't have any
other evidence about what kindof person you're going to become
.
So this is where that getsdeveloped.
So when I wasn't popular, I waslike okay, well, all the
evidence I have about myself isthat I'm rejected by high status
(06:01):
people.
I'm like not cool I'm, I don'tfit in in certain ways, and I
didn't have any disconfirmingevidence Like I later did
through New York, the bachelor,et cetera, and so this can get
like really cemented in people'sminds and then influence how
they see themselves far longer.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
By the way, you look really cute tonight.
So anyone you know, check outthe YouTube episode version of
this and look out she's wearing.
She's wearing this nice littlelike plumping lip gloss or
something going on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
You look really cute.
Anyway, I just wanted tomention.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I agree with everything you're saying that
when you're an adolescent like12, I mean now, it's like even
earlier for kids, which is crazy.
The like adolescence age haslike gone down a lot you know
that Because they were going topuberty earlier.
Yeah.
(06:56):
I'm guessing it's because ofobesity, a range of cultural
things, but that's the firsttime that you attach to figures
that are not your parents, right?
So it's like you are, I mean,if you think about it.
Yeah, like what you're saying,identity is formed in our minds,
like who we are is kind of likea mishmash of all these
(07:19):
different experiences you've hadin your relationships, right?
Like, oh, my brother is strongand I'm less strong, or I'm
loved, or I like people reallylike it if I, you know, are kind
to them or really high,achieving whatever, right.
So we start to develop our ideaof who we are based on our
(07:42):
relationships, and that's suchlike 12 years old and up is such
a formative time where you arelike learning how to identify
yourself in society and likeyour first partner right, your
first like major love or crushhappens and you start to like
have attachment figures outsideof your parents.
So it is a really interesting,like critical time for figuring
(08:04):
out who you are in the world.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Do you?
When you think about how yousaw yourself in high school,
does it map on at all to how yousee yourself now?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I, you know, I don't know because I, I think I had, I
think I cared less about howpopular I was.
I think I didn't.
I don't know if it was thefunction of my school being
smaller or there was definitelylike a hierarchy, but I don't
think we cared as much.
Um I, I definitely didn't thinkI was like one of the, you know
(08:40):
, like the popular kids, like Ididn't.
I didn't identify that way, butI remember going to college and
then people having a muchdifferent reaction to me, which
is weird.
Like in high school, I don'tknow, people didn't really
notice me or, you know, guysdidn't think I was attractive
and you know, um, I still datedsomeone, but it was only college
(09:01):
that people started to treat meas like someone who's
attractive and cool and you knowthey, you know there was such a
shift.
But I, yeah, I don't like Iwasn't popular, but I don't
think I cared in high school.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I'm always amazed by that I'm always amazed when
people didn't care aboutpopularity in high school.
I mean, popularity was like Imean it wasn't all I cared about
.
I really cared about my gradestoo, but it was a huge thing for
me.
I pretty much got over it aftermy freshman year because I, I,
I, I went after it a little toostrongly and wound up getting
(09:35):
rejected by like my major friendgroup and went into this
massive depression.
And then my sophomore year Iwas like, eh, this popularity
thing not going to work out forme I don't like people enough
for it to work out anyway.
And then got good friends.
Um, but I it's funny like Iremember I emotionally I think I
(09:56):
saw myself as unpopular, butwhen I really look back on it I
was probably just like a rung ortwo below the popular group.
So I did fine and I think youknow a lot of this research.
That's the thing like a lot ofthis research is like this
effects of not having friends onpeople.
And that certainly wasn't mine.
(10:17):
I think mine was just more likeI felt I didn't have a certain
status, because it's not evenlike the popular kids that I
wanted to be friends with werelike I don't think I was
interested in them as people.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
What did, yeah, what?
What defined like is this aschool thing Like where was
there like a really clear coolgroup in your high school?
And like what, what did it meanto be popular in your high
school?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I went to a very classic American high school in
West Virginia and, um, like,okay, so there were about 1200
students in the school overall,so 400 in the class.
Um, and my school was verystratified because we I mean I
(11:05):
lived in a town that was auniversity town in West Virginia
, so there was like the poorestof the poor kids and then like
the doctor's kids I mean wedidn't have any celebrities or
anything like that Like theKibbe went to the gossip girl
school.
So that's a very differentexperience.
(11:27):
Yeah, yeah, Um, I mean thefootball players cheerleader no,
they had some like level ofpopularity, but I just I
remember there was like aparticular group of girls that
just did not want to accept me,and probably because I didn't
have that much in common withthem and I just wanted to be, I
just wanted to be seen like them.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Was it like, imagine, like Glee you know the show
Glee and all those like movieswas it really like they were
rock stars and they could do nolike do anything they want?
Or was it just like you know,there was a group that was like
the hot ones?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, just like you know, there was a group that was
like the hot ones.
Yeah, no, I don't think that.
Honestly, looking back on it, Imean I wish I could go back in
time and have a conversationwith my 14 year old self and be
like you're not missing out onanything, everything these
people have.
You're going to get in likethree years and you'll be fine.
I think my part of my issue isthat I didn't go through puberty
until pretty late, so I stilllooked very young until I was
(12:29):
like 17.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So I mean, I think, what I?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
wanted was I wanted boys to like me.
I wanted boys to see me as ahigh value target.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Um so more about the sexual, like the, the, the
dating, so more about the sexual, like the, the, the dating.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I think it had a lot to do with just like how I
conceptualize myself.
Like I was very I needed to bethe best, you know.
Like I had the same basichangups with academics where I
just couldn't get a four, oh,and I couldn't get into the
Ivies and I couldn't get intoDuke, and I was like I guess I'm
just relegated to being aboveaverage and that was not good
(13:11):
enough.
And it was the same thing inthe in, like the popular group.
I mean I think to an extentlike we grew up with all of
these movies, these coming ofage movies, all these high
school movies with the partiesand everything, and I wanted
that experience.
I've always been such anexperience junkie.
I just like want to tasteeverything and like
(13:36):
realistically, when I was asenior I went to parties all the
time.
They weren't those kinds ofparties but in West Virginia who
knows what we are holdinganyway.
I mean it's not like anybodyhad massive amounts of money.
There weren't bands playing atany of these parties.
I don't think so.
It's kind of I mean, lookingback, there was nothing I was
missing out on, but I candefinitely see how that shaped
(13:56):
Like there are just some peoplethat I will always feel
uncomfortable around and when Iwent on the Bachelor it was like
I mean, that was exact type ofpeople I was terrified of.
I was like I am not going tofit in.
I didn't do well in a sororityin college, so like that kind of
high status, like popularpretty girl who's just got all
(14:17):
this confidence and like is agirl's girl, I just don't know
what to do with.
Or I didn't know what to dowith.
I think now it's somewhatdifferent.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What were your thoughts and like obsessions or
fixations when you were in highschool, like when you were, when
you were thinking about wantingto be popular or noticing this?
Would you be like down onyourself or would you be trying
to look what were like, fit inwith them in some way, or oh,
kibbe, this is so embarrassingbut also amusing to me.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
my first you should be my first year of high school,
okay, so I in middle school Ihad these two best friends named
sam and k.
Okay, kate had been my bestfriend for a lot longer.
Sam was kind of like somewhatnew, but she was blonde,
beautiful, blue eyed, doe eyed,like, came from an artsy family,
(15:15):
you know.
So she just like looked shecould take the best photos in
MySpace MySpace was the thingyou got 12 photos right and sam,
that motherfucker always hadthe best 12 photos, so
irritating, I was always tryingto compete with her 12 photos.
Anyways, we formed aquote-unquote sisterhood with
our other friend, sarah, and, um, we did things like we made a
(15:40):
bag out of denim, like thesisterhood of the traveling
pants kind of deal, where wewould like pass it around and we
put secrets in the.
We like wrote down secrets onpaper and put it in the handle
of the bag and then one of themtried to take her secret out and
we fucking caught her.
Anyway, put that secret back in.
(16:01):
Uh, we had these like matchingshirts that were totally
shapeless and looked stupid andwe were like all wore them.
They were like different colors, we all wore them and like so
my, the cafeteria had like threelevels and we like walked down
the stairs, but in a horizontalline, like down the first level.
Uh, it's pretty embarrassing,um, but anyway, we, sam and I,
were kind of like the queen beesat first and I I was closer
(16:24):
with both sarah and kateinitially initially, but we all
mean girls had come out the yearbefore.
So we took our cues or at leastsam and I did from regina,
george and we.
We changed our voices, wechanged our affects.
We just said bitchy shit toeach other.
(16:45):
If I look at my yearbook fromback then, it's like I'm like
circling people and being likethat ugly, like how does she
like blue, this guy?
It's like terrible, like really, how did you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
talk back then.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I don't know if I could do it now but, I, don't.
I'm sure I'm sure a lot of likethat's gay, like that kind of
stuff, whatever like a littlefucker said back then.
You know, I mean, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I was just.
You're going to say somethingabout your hair.
I don't know that's hot.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I mean paraselticness like whatever we're just yeah
we're just mean and we just talkshit about each other.
So like constantly.
And then like sam and I had thecrush on the same senior boy
and like looking like, why washe interested especially in me?
Looking like prepubescent madeno sense, but he was, anyway.
(17:53):
I far outpaced him in terms ofhotness later.
But we just like you know, ohmy God, we I would like his name
was John, I would like have asecret conversation with John,
and then Sam would have a secretconversation with John, but we
pretended like we were tellingeach other everything but then
we would tell, like Kate or Kateor Sarah the thing.
(18:13):
Then they would tell us andwe'd get back to us and it was
just this like whole square ofnastiness and we all made out
with each other.
Sam and I made out with eachother first and we like
pressured Sarah into making outwith us.
I mean it was just absurd and Imean that was cool.
Well, I got ousted, is?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
the long and short of this no, I got ousted how did
that happen?
Like Regina George, yeah kindof.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I kind of don't remember how I got ousted.
I think part of it was over theJohn thing.
We were just talking so muchshit about each other all the
time that it was bound toimplode.
But what sucked was that Istarted out being closest to
everybody and then I got ousted.
And then Sam became theofficial queen bee and she got
so good at MySpace and I wasdecent at MySpace, but mostly I
(19:04):
was just copying Sam's MySpaceand the top eight.
This ruined my life.
I mean, this was a hugecomponent of my depression was
we all played games with the topeight, you know?
So like I'd be number one onSam's and on Kate's, but then
I'd be number three and I'd belike, why am I number three now?
(19:25):
And they'd be like, don't bedramatic, it's just my space.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know, that's why being a team now with Facebook
like it's, like all that, allthat social media to really
quantify all.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I know that top eight was a motherfucker, though I
mean I got.
I remember I had this hugecrush on this guy named Cody,
who that was.
That made no sense, but I waslike number eight on his top
eight for a second this is whatI mean.
When I was like a rung belowand I was so shocked I was like,
oh my God, he thinks I'm hisfriend, Like we're friends.
He never said anything about itand then one day I was no longer
(20:02):
on it.
I'm like okay, well, I don'tknow how to explain that
phenomenon, but just everybodyshifting each other around, you
know who was their best friendthat day.
You know, if you're a littlebit mad at a certain, you just
shift them down One or twopeople and they'll notice.
They'll notice.
So Brutal, how old were you?
How old was this?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I was 14 wow, that would have been crushing.
Yeah, I one of my dad's oldfavorite memories of me.
Um, he was so proud of this.
I don't remember the exact, theexact event that he's talking
about, but I do remember thegeneral time.
(20:43):
So there was a time and I had arougher time, I think in like
adolescence, because I was in anall girls school and yeah, it
was just like a bunch of likestrong willed, like you know,
like 12 year old girls are awful, like to put them all in the
same room for extended periodsof time.
Yeah, they're just like, likeit's brutal.
(21:05):
So my dad said that the populargirls at some point.
Well, it was really sad becauseI one of my best friends
growing up, marin um, I hope I'mgonna make her listen to this,
but she, you know, we were likefriends, friends, friends,
friends, where I like playingvideo games and all that stuff
and then she started hanging outwith a popular group and I
(21:27):
really hurt because it was shejust kind of like, was like and
kind of blowing me off, and Iwas like you know, yeah, like my
best friend was was leaving me,and apparently the popular
girls came over to me and waslike you know, we'll hang out
with you or we just like giveyou a makeover, or something
like that.
And apparently I said go fuckyourself.
(21:48):
That was one of my dad'sfavorite memories of me.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Good, for you.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I don't really remember.
I'm sure it was like morecomplicated than that and like
girls speak back and forth, butI think I do remember just
feeling sad that my friend wasgone to them and just having no
interest, but annoyed.
I was just annoyed at, like youknow, they're waving the power
and they were like hey, kibbe,you know, basically like
(22:16):
devaluing me.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I probably was like fuck you and you know, what was
the, what was the social capitalor the resource that you were
all currying for in an all girlsschool, all boys schools?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
but a lot of them would meet in Hebrew school.
The big Jewish population theselike New York schools, so they
would all meet at like 13.
And then start like kind ofdating each other, whereas I
didn't go to.
Hebrew school so I didn't knowguys.
So my friend marin was like inhebrew school dating all these
dudes and yeah, like she's justlike that, probably like boosted
(23:10):
her I'm so sorry, marin, that'sthe most new york shit I've
ever heard.
That's so funny, but we, we justwanted power.
I don't know, I don't knowexactly what the like you just
felt.
The power amongst women.
Yeah, like one thing was theattractiveness and ability to
get attention, but it's alsojust like who could command the
(23:32):
room, like who's setting thetone.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Right.
So there's some reallyinteresting research that looked
at like curvilinear data.
So it wasn't just likeBasically, it was looking at
like a range of popularity andnot just seeing like a linear
correlation, like you know, like, as you get more popular, you
(23:59):
get more pro-social, or whateverit was like.
At what points in this range ofpopularity is, like,
pro-sociality strongest, and soone of the comparisons they were
doing was childhood popularityversus adolescent popularity and
they found that childhoodpopularity was more associated
with pro-social behavior.
So they're nicer, basically,and adolescent popularity was
(24:23):
less associated with pro-socialbehavior.
Mid range, like averagepopularity was so like those
kids were nicer, but as you gotmore popular was so like those
kids were nicer.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
But as you got more popular, you became more
aggressive.
What the hell did you just say,okay, like, let's bring it down
if you were popular inadolescence.
What happens if you areaggressive later on in adulthood
?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
no, no, if you were average popularity, average
popularity.
So, like me, you are morepro-social.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You're nicer.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You have lots of friends right, but as you get
more popular, so the reallypopular kids, they're more
aggressive, and that makes sensebecause they had to basically
keep their power.
They're more dominant, more youknow like.
This is how they have this sortof status, and this does seem
(25:19):
to exist into adulthood.
An interesting thing is thatthe least popular kids in
adolescence no, I think this isactually childhood they actually
then became more aggressive inadulthood, which isn't super
surprising either, because yeah,um, but that was kind of cool
(25:41):
that that is cool.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So wait, how do, how do we, how do we understand that
?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
if I were going to map on, if I were going to map
on careers, the really reallythe really really popular kids
would be ceos and doctors, andthe middle, the average popular
kids like me, would betherapists and teachers.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Like I, had a lot of friends.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I just didn't have status okay, that's what.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
That's what the confusing part about this
popularity question Is it apeople who just like,
objectively have more friends,or in a in a social hierarchy,
yeah, or you perceive yourself,or this is something that you
just say about yourself Like Ifelt popular or unpopular makes
(26:33):
a difference.
Like I wasn't popular, but Iprobably have the same number of
friends as I don't know anyother kid yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
So, as hypothesized, adolescent popularity was
associated with powerful andforceful behaviors and status
indicators in emerging adulthood, such as proactive relational
aggression, dominance andinfluence.
Popularity in childhood andadolescence was measured by
asking longitudinal participantsand their classmates to
(27:03):
nominate who were most popularand who were least popular
within their classroom so theyhad to rate who were popular,
interesting.
Yeah, they could nominate allclassmates irrespective of sex
or gender, but could notnominate themselves interesting.
That's a good study I knowthat's a really good study.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Okay, all right, I'm in, I'm in.
Um, yeah, I guess it's likewhat traits you develop, like to
get power, and I guess thatthat makes more sense in
adolescence versus any othertime.
Right, like, yeah, to reallydominate, that's interesting and
then have have that be like anaggressive quality.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I'm aggressive, but I , I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't
popular you know, um, yeah, Imean it was kind of interesting,
cause we all think of kids askind of mean, but I was actually
popular for a year inelementary school and I did not
even realize it.
I had a click.
Everyone wanted to be in it.
(28:02):
We rejected everyone, it wasjust for us four.
And then this one girl, morgan.
She went to whine to her momand her mom was like my
daughter's being excluded and wehad to have this big like all
the girls in the class had tostay behind during recess and
talk to the teacher and theteacher was like there's a click
here.
That is not acceptable, it'sover.
Today we're disbanding it.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And it was my click oh yeah my goodness, it's so
funny yeah because I think we'reprobably like equal popularity,
but you seem to care a lot.
You guys were very embroiledlike you were.
You.
I could hear the social, thefighting, the fighting for the
social hierarchy in your stories.
I was just like I wonder if oneof the reasons is that I had
(28:48):
older siblings and I wasconstantly comparing myself to
their success.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Like I saw, my brothers were pretty popular.
Okay and so.
I was always on.
They're, they're both very goodlooking in high school and they
both I mean they both got cutegirls.
Um, yeah, I mean I justremember like I mean, charlie,
(29:14):
charlie went to college when Iwas like 10, but they both had a
lot of friends over, likeandrew's friends were very
clearly cool, like they had veryrelevant contemporary senses of
humor, they listened to theright music, they wore the right
clothes, they had a cute, cutegirlfriend.
I mean it was just, like youknow, kind of apparent, um and
(29:39):
and then my friends alwaysthought my brothers were hot.
They were always like talkingabout that.
So I felt like I was incompetition with my sister to be
smart and then with my brother,andrew, in particular, to be
popular.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Andrew in particular, to be popular.
Oh so the real, the real highschool popular unpopularity
contest was in the Trumbull home.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, yeah, we had a lot of competitions going into
Trumbull home.
My parents put zero pressure onme to be popular.
I mean my mom could not giveless of a shit about that.
She wasn't.
I mean, actually she kind ofwas popular.
She pretended like she wasn'tpopular.
She was kind of popular in highschool but she, like my mom,
does not try to fit in withanybody, like if my mom was very
(30:23):
take it or leave it with her.
I mean, she knows how to getpeople to like her, but she
would never have a vapidconversation if it meant being
liked so what did what did itmean for you to, for you guys to
be popular, like when, likewho's you guys?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
you, you and your siblings.
What would getting popular mean?
Is it the power or is it the?
Is it the friendship?
Because now that we're mixing,there's two different
definitions.
Right, it's like people likingyou versus being on top which is
very different.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
yeah, I wanted to be on top.
I had plenty of friends.
What did top mean?
Like what would that mean?
I get invited to all theparties, like there was a
conspicuous lack of for, forinstance, valentine's Day there
would be that.
Did you guys have this?
The carnation thing, where youcould buy a carnation and like
have somebody send it to yourcrush?
(31:23):
Oh, that's fun.
Oh, my God, I know I wantedthat so bad.
Every freaking Valentine's DayI'd be like is this going to be
the year?
Is someone going to send me one?
No, I never did.
I never got like secret notesin my locker or like anybody you
know nobody from my schoolasked me to prom.
(31:44):
I mean I wound up going with mybest friend, eric, who actually
had another girlfriend.
He went with me instead, butthat's okay, I mean.
Mean, it wasn't a romanticthing, it was just I had we'd
agreed to it earlier.
So, yeah, I just felt like Iwas missing out on a lot of like
high school major experiences,markers, I guess, major events
(32:07):
so then, what did it feel liketo get the popularity during the
bachelor times?
Fucking amazing and also badbecause I didn't get the
popularity but I got.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Kevin and I were talking before this you were in
the bachelor you, you still getthat right?
Speaker 1 (32:24):
yeah, no, I think it.
I think it essentially healedthis part of me.
Um, when I first went on thebachelor I I had two thoughts,
like two competing thoughts.
One was like holy shit, I feelanointed by the universe, like
I'm a special person, I get tobe a special person.
And then my second thought wasthere's no way in hell I'm going
(32:45):
to last more than three weekson the show, cause I was like
I'm not one of those people.
I'm not one of those girls Likethe.
The casting agents are in theirare in middle age and I've
always done well with much olderpeople.
So where I actually started tofeel cool was in college a
little bit in Slovakia actually,because I was like the American
(33:07):
exchange student who got a lotof attention and boys liked me
there.
And then in college, when Istarted going to New York and
was fucking my boss, like that,you know, I was like I couldn't
get into the best frat partiesat UVA, but like I was like
fucking a rich CEO.
So I don't know, I mean thatthat was something.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I could hold.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Um so yeah, but I was like I was like the bachelor is
the definition of people, Ithat do not get me and do not
like me.
And so I went on and, yeah, Iwasn't the cool girl on the
Bachelor, for probably multiplereasons.
One was that I did not putmyself front and center.
(33:48):
But what I did experience wasthat actually most of those
girls did like me and they werereally cool to me Like no one
sucked.
And then Kendall comes, likeyou know, carrying like four
taxidermied animals under herarms.
So I was like wow, like who,who knew?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I guess these are all women who were different and
owned it right, who are justlike confident, confident in
like being a little weirdo andbeing different, but also
conventionally attractive.
Yes, it helps.
Yes, they're gorgeous women.
Yeah, they'll help, uh-huh yeahlike what.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Would it like to walk around afterwards and people be
like she was on tv amazing butyou have to like okay, it's so
funny when people wouldapologize Like I'm so sorry.
I'm sure you get asked aboutthis all the time and you know
my star is like it's basicallycompletely it's like a red dwarf
(34:51):
right now.
I mean, whatever the one islike about to be totally dead,
whatever I'm like.
No, if you want to make me feelcool and famous one more time
before I sputter out like, be myguest Totally, that's totally
welcome.
Um, but at the time it was acombined thing right when, like
all of the all the people fromhigh school started pouring into
(35:11):
my Facebook friend requests.
So that was awesome.
I was like reject, reject,reject, reject.
Um, and then, like I had a kindof cache from that that you
just get to have for the rest ofyour life, which is amazing.
But I also had all my airtimewiped and people hated me on
Reddit and I was like see, I'mnot the right like, I'm not
(35:32):
somebody that people broadlylike.
So you know, and it was thisthing where I almost got it.
I almost got total redemptionwhere I was like I almost was in
the top four If I didn.
I was like I almost was in thetop four if I didn't pick my
fucking job almost in the topfour, like would have been about
hundreds of thousands ofInstagram followers and I would
(35:53):
have been like I'm a cool girl.
Instead, I was not a cool girl.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, what would your life be different Like, let's
say.
Let's say, yeah, if you couldlike take the adolescent you had
, like another, you had anotherhigh school period.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And the bachelor, where you got to be like you
know, got to be like within thecool, cool kids.
What would it have been like ifyou stayed on that show instead
of going to work?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Okay, I'll give you the idealized version and then
what's probably the realisticversion.
Yeah, the idealized desiredversion is that I could step
into any room with totalconfidence, cause I'd be like
I'm one of those people thateveryone likes and admires and
envies and I'd be able to talkto any guy and any girl and I'd
(36:51):
be invited to everything, andeveryone would be jealous of me.
Yay.
The probable reality is that Iwould have been sucked much more
strongly into a toxichierarchical system that would
have chewed me up and spit meout and I would have had a
greater sense of cachet.
(37:11):
Like I do enjoy that part, butlike I mean the most tangible
thing that I would have actuallywanted was money Like they.
Just if I would have had500,000 Instagram followers, I'd
be a lot wealthier right now.
So that would have been greatand there would have been cool
opportunities.
You know, this podcast could behuge and et cetera.
(37:32):
But I think, just from thepopularity status aspect like
what my core, like what my core,what my ego wanted to heal was
that kind of idealized, like noone will reject me, I'll just,
everyone will want to be me,kind of deal.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I mean I think.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
In reality, most people just get stuck in these
hierarchical systems and theyget pushed around and then new
girls come and they're morepopular and you lose your
Instagram followers and all thisshit happens, right?
I just had a more rapidexperience of that.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Wow, so funny that the the the tips from this
episode is yeah, just go on TV,go on national television, and
that is a way to heal yourchildhood wounds.
Popularity this become popular.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
That was what I suggested.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
It's great.
No downsides, no notes.
No the rest of us are not on TV.
The research does show that ifyou really all of how you
understand your your pastexperiences right, like if you
internalize it, it like everyonebeat me up because I'm a
(38:47):
terrible person and they sawwhere it really was and everyone
hates it, right, then you couldthen it would be like that
would affect your self-esteem,right the way you make it
general to your whole character.
If you're like I mean, we justwere different kinds of people
and those kids were kind ofbullies and you know, like I had
(39:11):
some friends and I had a goodtime right, so that would
actually be a little bit moreprotective like, first of all,
research shows that even justhaving one close friend is very
protective.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
So, like, if you're a parent, you know, I mean even
just finding one friend to justlike friendship to foster, just
you know, do that.
I think that saves you fromlike the worst of the effect.
I mean, if your kid isfriendless, that's it's a huge
problem.
Um, you know, I mean you canalso do things like find online
communities discord, you know,and like knowing people who do
that.
I'm a little bit wary ofsuggesting that, though, because
I think it can encourage shutin behavior.
(39:50):
Yeah, so I think that's adouble edged sword.
But yeah, I mean, if, like,realistically speaking, you know
, I had groups of friends and.
I was never going to wind upwith the really negative effects
of the deeply unpopular kidsbecause I had plenty of friends,
(40:10):
so that wasn't the issue.
Um, but I think, like I thinkif I think new york was
extremely good for me, basicallyfirst going to college and
understanding, like collegethere's no popularity, I mean
there there's almost more wealthstratification at uva.
So there was, like some, forsome sororities I was never
(40:30):
going to get into because Iwasn't like an old deep south,
like old money family butwhatever.
um, but you know it's just likefinding whenever you're in a
bigger community, there's morepeople you can find and there's
just less direct comparison.
So there's.
I think actually that'sprobably a curvilinear thing too
(40:51):
.
When it's a really smallcommunity you don't have that
problem.
But then when it's like big,like my high school, but not big
enough like a college, you'regoing to see that stratification
start.
And then when it gets evenbigger, you can't see the
stratification as much.
And then when it gets reallybig, like New York, you sort of
see it.
You know that there are elites,but you don't.
(41:12):
They're not next to you,they're not sitting at the
cafeteria table next to you,unless you're Kibbe and you go
to school with AlexandraDaddario.
Good, you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, I mean it's just it, it.
It is so interesting to hearhow how much this sits with you
like how this, yeah, this likereally shaped your identity.
It's interesting I'm trying tothink about like did how much
did it actually shape myidentity?
I was more mostly sucked into arelationship in high school, so
I all my focus was in in that wewere like a tumultuous high
conflict couple and we wouldfight all the time.
(41:58):
So my thoughts were more aboutthat.
I didn't really and we were ina bigger like friend group, but
I didn't really care this wasbefore the psychopathic dude no,
it's that.
Was that's one?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
yeah, okay yeah did you date in college too?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
a little bit okay.
Yeah, I had mostly boyfriends,so I think I didn't really focus
on the social like status thing.
I was mostly focused on myrelationships, I think Did you
care about?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
their status, your boyfriend's status.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
No, but I cared about winning one person over.
So maybe you cared aboutwinning a group of people over,
but I cared about getting thatguy's attention.
Whoever my crush was, I wantedhim and I wanted him to notice
me.
I didn't care what status oryou know all the other people
around me, but I, I cared aboutthat one boy.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
The last time I had truly pure and good taste in men
was in fifth grade Shout out toPatrick Cushing, he knows this
but I had the biggest crush onhim for like one to two years
and I liked him because he wassmart and I thought he was cute
and he wore this really cuteyellow jacket.
And then after after that, allI cared about was status.
So I will say, like,extracurriculars are huge too.
(43:13):
I mean, I I went to, I wasobsessed with college, getting
into the best college, alsostatus.
And, um, I got a brochure inthe mail that was like, hey,
join us at Princeton or Stanfordor Harvard or wherever the fuck
.
And for a politics summer camp.
I had no interest in politicsbut I saw Ivy leagues Right, so
I signed up instantaneously andI went and it was like best
(43:35):
summer of my life and I met allof these other like Ivy bound
kids and we talked about likepolitics and philosophy.
And then I came back to myschool and I started a chapter
about like politics andphilosophy.
And then I came back to myschool and I started a chapter
and then that we as a chapter wehad like conventions with other
chapters in ohio and stuff.
So I was, I was popular there,so I was able to have this
(43:55):
parallel experience where I wasreally accepted and like desired
and that really helped.
So I I think like if your kid ison the nerdier side, like, have
them join robotics club.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
They might be the cool kid in the room then, or,
at least you know, accepted withlike-minded peers know what
this means in terms of parentingbecause, like you, could assume
that maybe, maybe thepopularity in high school is
just a reflection of your social.
(44:30):
You know, like your attachmentstuff, right, like you're a
little weird or detached oraggressive when you're a kid.
People don't really like youthen, or like some people who
are on the spectrum or somethingwho have a hard time with
connecting to others, right,they or they were like like
higher rates of being bulliedand then so they might have
mental health issues in thefuture.
(44:51):
But who knew?
Like chicken or the egg, right.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
But also, like I wonder if, if you have, like a
stable family life of parentswho you know who love you right,
then then they're, that's thatsecondary attachment might not
need to matter as much.
Right, like you kind of beweird, you know you could be sad
(45:18):
, but if you come home toparents who, like, are there for
you and really see you, I thinkthat probably would carry
stronger over what kids do Imean a thousand percent.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I also think, though, that having really loving
parents is going to make itinfinitely more likely that you
are a likable kid, becauseyou're going to be able to form
stable relationships and have ahigh enough self-esteem to
present well.
But, yeah, I mean I you know,yeah, for if a kid would like
has autism or something and justgenuinely has like a social
deficit, then I I don't evenknow if they would care about
(45:50):
status in the same way.
Um, I don't know like it wouldbe interesting to see what kinds
of people care about status andwhich which don't.
Cause I again like I wasn'trewarded by my parents for
popularity, I was for beauty but, it's not like they cared when
I went through puberty.
I mean that was all about likeattraction for men.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I was way more interested in academic success.
No surprise there, right, likebeing being getting the highest
marks and stuff like that in thebest grades.
Yeah, I think I would and Iwould encourage my kids to have
that attitude towards popularity.
It's like enjoy the people thatyou're, that you click with and
(46:33):
have like, who are like goodpeople, who are into what you're
into, and like support you thenlike fight for popularity, like
I would try to teach, teachJackson that of like focus on
the people who are like you knowwhat you really care about.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I again, like, I mean my my
brothers would always say, likehigh school popularity does not
matter, especially in WestVirginia, especially if you have
money in West Virginia.
I mean this is sort of a sadthing to say, but like my life
plan always involved, uh,surpassing most of my peers,
because most people are going tobe stuck in West Virginia,
(47:09):
whereas my family had the moneyto launch me into it, you know
an out of state college andbeyond.
So you know, looking back on mythe popular kids now like
they're not doing so hot and I'mno longer super proud of that.
Like I'd like it if people werejust successful.
I have no beef with themanymore.
But that was just reality.
Your situation was totallydifferent.
(47:31):
But I mean it just sounds likeyou didn't necessarily need that
anyway.
Um, but I mean when I, when Igave up on the popular thing
that was just after my firstyear in high school, like I did
not keep pursuing that.
I think I wanted somecarnations at Valentine's day
still, but I like I became.
One thing I'll say about myself, and I've always been like this
, is that I would never not befriends with somebody because
(47:53):
they weren't popular.
At least I don't think that'strue, I was friends with like
people all across the spectrum,um, and I just like leaned much
more heavily into genuinefriendships and then was
genuinely sort of happy um andgot into parties and pursued jsa
(48:14):
, the politics club and andeverything.
So I also want to instill thatin my kids.
But, like I think it's so, Ireally think for me the big
thing was that I was discoveringwho I was and I was getting
information that I could notmake it onto the highest rungs
of anything, and that was likethe real problem for me.
And so I think with, yeah, mykids it's going to be like a you
(48:37):
really have to believe me thatyou are not done developing and
that one context is not going togive you very much information
about who you're going to be inother contexts.
So, like, please have patience,let's get you into other
contexts.
I'm going to I'm going to.
I'm, I'm going to go in hardwith my kids Cause I'm so
worried about the asociality ofof today's teens.
(48:58):
Um, but I'm, yeah, I mean, I'mgoing to be setting up plays,
play dates, out the wazoo.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
What would you say are different ways that people
who are not popular in highschool and it's still haunts
them, it's still affects like nomatter what.
They might have good friends,they might have a good life, but
they just can't shake thefeeling that they're not cool.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You answer first.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
first, you have not um, yeah, I mean I guess you
could, you know, rewrite thenarrative right, like, as we're
saying, that it matters how yousee that past right like maybe
when you look back on the pastand you focus on the times that
you know you weren't top eighton MySpace, yeah, Like your mind
(49:48):
might fixate on those details,but then you might want to
remember things like what, whatwere things that you did that
you were proud of?
When when did you have the besttime?
When were you like laughing sohard that you, like you and your
friends, couldn't stop?
Yeah, what did people like youfor that you did like you, like
you and your friends couldn'tstop?
Yeah, what do people like youfor that do did like you.
You know, and are those youknow always.
(50:10):
The easiest one is are thosepopular kids still popular?
Or did they peak in high schoolRight.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, I mean, I actually think that the research
today's is kind of helpful inthis.
It's like when we think aboutwho's the most popular, they're
not the most popular because noteven because they're the best
looking or because they're thenicest or the most interesting
or the smartest or anything likethat it is because they are,
they have higher levels ofpowerful and forceful behaviors.
(50:38):
You know, so like that's notnecessarily a good thing.
I mean, it can, it can beadaptive in certain contexts.
But you know also, highpopularity is a huge like.
It's highly associated with,like risky behaviors, which
makes sense.
You know, like really popularkids are giving each other blow
jobs and doing cocaine at likethe age of 15.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
So do you know that in new york, at these bar and
bat mitzvahs, these parties thatwe used to go to when they were
like when kids turned 13, oh,no, kids are like giving each
other blowjobs in the middle oflike a dance floor well, I mean,
that's very impressive aboutthe dance floor.
(51:22):
I haven't even seen that inadulthood, but like there might
be a chair involved, but whatI'm saying is 13 year old kids
giving each other bjs in public.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
God my scars.
But I mean I grew up in westvirginia.
Like I remember in the fifthgrade like kids were caught
doing drugs in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
So I mean there is all sorts of shit, I want the
kids to go that far, but a lotof teen pregnancy and stuff what
else do you do if you were notcool and you're like oh well, I
always feel not cool, yeah well,yeah, I mean again, like, maybe
(52:03):
the reason you weren't popularin high school was because you
actually had really good traitsthat just aren't.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
They don't have mass market appeal.
So like, if we think of, if wethink of Proust, okay, the
novelist, he has criticalacclaim, but he does not have
mass market appeal.
Like the best, the best, themost, like the most smart,
(52:32):
interesting, you know,fascinating people are probably
not going to be wildly popularin high school.
So it doesn't necessarily saysomething bad about you if you
were not the most popular kid inhigh school.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You're just prused.
You're just prused man.
That's pretty dope, in fact Ilike that.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I like that mantra I like that that's a good closing
statement.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, I mean.
So, like the, the people whowere most popular in high school
, probably, like I mean theymight have they probably had
some combination of like aforcefulness, dominance,
aggression, um, some pro-socialbehavior and also, just like
they liked the popular shit,there was probably an element of
unoriginality Mainstream,mainstream.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, so don't be basic.
And then the other tip is go onnational television.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Go on national television.
Move to New.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
York.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
You girl.
So tips for if you are stillsuffering from low self-esteem
because you weren't popular inhigh school, so yeah, I mean I
would say like really try toreframe what popularity actually
probably meant in high school.
I don't know.
I think a lot of this is justlike we we build scar tissue
(53:46):
over that wound that keepsaffecting us even when it's no
longer appropriate, right, likeyou may just be holding onto
something just because it it wasa wound that formed early
enough to to cut you deep enoughto build scar tissue, and so
really working through that ispossible.
Like it really might beirrelevant at this point.
(54:08):
You could be somebody who haslots of friends, who has a
partner, right, but the thing is, is that, like I mean I can say
this about me, I've said itright Like I lost confidence
around certain people because Ihad beliefs about my likability
or desirability around thosepeople, and that might be the
very thing that's keeping youstuck in this wound is your own
(54:29):
belief, your own limitingbeliefs about yourself, and like
what kinds of people couldpossibly like you or what
fashion you could possibly wear.
That was another thing.
Like I never felt like I couldpull off cool girl fashion, um,
for whatever fucking reason youknow, try.
I mean my advice is always tojust like get disconfirming
evidence, try new things.
(54:51):
Like invest, invest in yourlook.
Like put you know, get theblowout, get the makeup done.
Like buy the clothes you reallywant to buy and just try it out
for a while, like see what fits, but also see what you feel
like natural in.
And not because you're limitingyourself, not because you have
negative beliefs and think youneed to wear like a baggy
(55:12):
t-shirt or nothing you know, butbecause like oh, this feels
authentically me, like what isgoing to make you confident.
So I mean I would say, investin confidence yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
How we would say with our clients is if you were
confident or you were feelingself-assured or whatever, what
would you be doing differently,right?
And then just act that way,like fake it till you, make it
yeah, and then get on tv.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, and then go on tv and then be unpopular on TV,
but still more popular than likemost people that you went to
high school with.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Or make a monkey meme that has now gotten 9 million
views.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Damn, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Cool of mine to look it up on Instagram.
It's like regular posts aboutmental health and relationships
and one monkey meme I made.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
I got nine million views so I think what we're
saying is keep chasing thedragon, like, yeah, keep going
for popularity that's whatthat's how you could heal the
problem of being not popular um,yeah, I mean I you know, but
take, take pride in whatevermakes you unusual.
I mean, I do feel like I've,I've at least gotten there yeah,
(56:31):
yeah, I mean, this self-esteemis really how we understand.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
You know a lifetime of interactions with people.
How do like?
Who are we compared to, like inrelation to others?
And you can focus on the badstuff, or you could focus on the
whole picture, or you couldfocus on the good stuff.
And so yeah just askingyourself, like I might not have
been popular, but what was Iproud of or what?
What did I like about me as akid?
Speaker 1 (57:03):
right, right.
Maybe you were too busystudying to be fucking popular.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
You know, maybe studying I was playing video
games.
I was I don't even know.
I was not cool.
I was squarely not cool and Ithink I didn't care.
Yeah I mean that I enjoy beinga dork.
What?
Speaker 1 (57:23):
is that like?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (57:26):
like it's really fun you play a lot of Zelda have one
or two couple best friends.
Everyone's fussing over whatthey wear.
I've been wearing the samething since I was at like
leggings and a baggy t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
That's what I wear all the time.
Realistically speaking, if welook at a person who's 30 years
old and if they weren't cool inhigh school but they've got
friends now, like it's likethey're holding themselves to
the standard of when they weredefinitely at their least cool,
because every high schoolstudent is at their least cool
in their entire lifespan.
I mean, maybe some people Iguess that's not true the people
(58:04):
who are really popular and thentake a nosedive.
This doesn't apply to them, butin general, people who are have
a basic level of flourishing.
Now, when they're in highschool, they're actually kind of
a loser, right, they had anadolescent sense of humor.
They thought really dumb shitwas funny.
That wasn't.
You know, they were trying tofit in all over the place.
Like that's what you're blamingyourself for not being
(58:26):
successful in.
And the people who didn't likeyou like that's what we're
concerned about.
Like those people who nowfollow their you know, follow
their trajectory and they'reprobably not cool.
That's what you're holding onto.
Versus today, when you have,like people who love you and
(58:47):
value you and you know we'll flyto Portugal when you're not
even getting married to supportyou and all of that.
So, um, good reframe.
Thank you, thank you.
So I didn't actually mean anyof that stuff.
I said and I do want to bepopular.
So if you want to give us massmarket appeal, feel free to give
us a five-star rating on Applepodcasts or Spotify and we'll
(59:08):
see you next week.
By accessing this podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
(59:35):
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the Thank you and donot constitute the practice of
medical or any otherprofessional judgment, advice,
diagnosis or treatment andshould not be considered or used
as a substitute for theindependent professional
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In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
(59:57):
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this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Little helpers, today we aredoing an episode that I honestly
cannot believe we didn't doyears ago, given how fixated I
was on it for most of my lifeand that is high school
(00:24):
popularity.
I did not know you were soexcited.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I was like what's going on?
You look a little.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, it's because you met me post-bachelor, which
healed my wounds more or less.
Yeah, created new ones.
Yeah, created new ones.
So we're going to talk abouthigh school unpopularity versus
popularity, read a bunch ofresearch and then just, I think,
just talk about our experiencesand how it's affected us,
because I thought for at least adecade after high school about
(00:57):
how it affected me, did you?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I mean, I haven't thought about this in a really
long time, so you will get mythoughts brainstormed and
processed out live.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah Well, anything you want to say about Cool Mind
helping, if you have any.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
If you have any.
You know these emotionallychallenging relationships or
feel low self-esteem inrelationships struggling in
general with a loved one with amental illness.
We can give you skills andguidance for what to do, what to
say to help your loved one aswell as yourself the simplest
way I can explain it.
But yeah, so if you just wantto learn more how we could help,
(01:44):
have any questions, go tocoolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom
and you could just book a freecall with me to talk about what
we do and how we can help youCool.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, I wanted to do this topic because, I mean, just
in general, I think it's reallyinteresting, but I don't even
remember how I thought to dothis.
But I posted a series of pollson my Instagram that were like,
you know, if you were unpopularor specifically uncool I didn't
mean necessarily like activelyunpopular, like disliked, but
(02:19):
like, if you weren't cool inhigh school, does that affect
you today?
Weren't cool in high school?
Does that affect you today?
Um, I had another poll aboutthat too, but I don't remember
what it was.
But basically, a huge number ofpeople said yes, like people
are still really wounded overthis like uncoolness thing in
high school.
Um, I mean, the research isinteresting.
(02:41):
I mean, I think like researchagain, when you have these like
gradated questions like what isunpopular, is that like no
friends?
Is it like deeply uncool anddisliked, or is it just like you
weren't the popular group whichwas more me or me?
(03:06):
Um, it's, you're going to havedifferent answers, but like,
essentially there are.
I mean, there's like definitelystill effects in adulthood of
you know, like your popularityin high school can predict a lot
of things about you, um, inadulthood, yeah, Bad news for
you teens having a rough time, Iknow.
Well, it is kind of concerningwith a, with the teen social
(03:28):
experience being what it istoday, which is essentially
asocial, um, but yeah, I mean Ithink like so in general, you
see, like if kids were unpopularand I think what the research
was talking about was likeactually unpopular there's going
(03:48):
to be all sorts of negativeeffects like depression and
anxiety, stress levels physicalstress levels are higher for
that population Lowerself-esteem, lower social skills
.
It can be hard to tellsometimes whether this is
correlation or causation.
I mean, like there's one kindof pathway where it's like
(04:13):
popular kids got a lot of socialpractice in high school, um,
and so they had like anopportunity to develop social
skills, um, and have like justlike a lot of relationships,
right, I mean, I didn't have aboyfriend in in high school, but
I at least had some datingexperiences that I was able to
build on, you know, going intocollege and beyond Actually more
(04:33):
so in Slovakia.
But if you don't have thatright, then like your first
dating experiences might be incollege and then they to be as
successful as your peers whohave already been dating.
And then it gets pushed laterand later and later and it
becomes more and more of astruggle.
So there's that aspect.
And then there's this aspect oflike identity development and
(04:57):
self-esteem, which I'm prettyinterested in, because I
definitely think that my socialstatus in high school like
affected how I saw myself andyou know how I would behave
around other, like high statuspeople, like longevity.
The result, like the effects ofthis, is when you are in high
(05:19):
school.
That is your first experienceof having like a social
consciousness that's more orless developed.
You know you're pulling awayfrom your parents and so your
(05:40):
peer group becomes much moreimportant and you don't have any
other evidence about what kindof person you're going to become
.
So this is where that getsdeveloped.
So when I wasn't popular, I waslike okay, well, all the
evidence I have about myself isthat I'm rejected by high status
(06:01):
people.
I'm like not cool I'm, I don'tfit in in certain ways, and I
didn't have any disconfirmingevidence Like I later did
through New York, the bachelor,et cetera, and so this can get
like really cemented in people'sminds and then influence how
they see themselves far longer.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
By the way, you look really cute tonight.
So anyone you know, check outthe YouTube episode version of
this and look out she's wearing.
She's wearing this nice littlelike plumping lip gloss or
something going on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
You look really cute.
Anyway, I just wanted tomention.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I agree with everything you're saying that
when you're an adolescent like12, I mean now, it's like even
earlier for kids, which is crazy.
The like adolescence age haslike gone down a lot you know
that Because they were going topuberty earlier.
Yeah.
(06:56):
I'm guessing it's because ofobesity, a range of cultural
things, but that's the firsttime that you attach to figures
that are not your parents, right?
So it's like you are, I mean,if you think about it.
Yeah, like what you're saying,identity is formed in our minds,
like who we are is kind of likea mishmash of all these
(07:19):
different experiences you've hadin your relationships, right?
Like, oh, my brother is strongand I'm less strong, or I'm
loved, or I like people reallylike it if I, you know, are kind
to them or really high,achieving whatever, right.
So we start to develop our ideaof who we are based on our
(07:42):
relationships, and that's suchlike 12 years old and up is such
a formative time where you arelike learning how to identify
yourself in society and likeyour first partner right, your
first like major love or crushhappens and you start to like
have attachment figures outsideof your parents.
So it is a really interesting,like critical time for figuring
(08:04):
out who you are in the world.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Do you?
When you think about how yousaw yourself in high school,
does it map on at all to how yousee yourself now?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I, you know, I don't know because I, I think I had, I
think I cared less about howpopular I was.
I think I didn't.
I don't know if it was thefunction of my school being
smaller or there was definitelylike a hierarchy, but I don't
think we cared as much.
Um I, I definitely didn't thinkI was like one of the, you know
(08:40):
, like the popular kids, like Ididn't.
I didn't identify that way, butI remember going to college and
then people having a muchdifferent reaction to me, which
is weird.
Like in high school, I don'tknow, people didn't really
notice me or, you know, guysdidn't think I was attractive
and you know, um, I still datedsomeone, but it was only college
(09:01):
that people started to treat meas like someone who's
attractive and cool and you knowthey, you know there was such a
shift.
But I, yeah, I don't like Iwasn't popular, but I don't
think I cared in high school.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I'm always amazed by that I'm always amazed when
people didn't care aboutpopularity in high school.
I mean, popularity was like Imean it wasn't all I cared about
.
I really cared about my gradestoo, but it was a huge thing for
me.
I pretty much got over it aftermy freshman year because I, I,
I, I went after it a little toostrongly and wound up getting
(09:35):
rejected by like my major friendgroup and went into this
massive depression.
And then my sophomore year Iwas like, eh, this popularity
thing not going to work out forme I don't like people enough
for it to work out anyway.
And then got good friends.
Um, but I it's funny like Iremember I emotionally I think I
(09:56):
saw myself as unpopular, butwhen I really look back on it I
was probably just like a rung ortwo below the popular group.
So I did fine and I think youknow a lot of this research.
That's the thing like a lot ofthis research is like this
effects of not having friends onpeople.
And that certainly wasn't mine.
(10:17):
I think mine was just more likeI felt I didn't have a certain
status, because it's not evenlike the popular kids that I
wanted to be friends with werelike I don't think I was
interested in them as people.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
What did, yeah, what?
What defined like is this aschool thing Like where was
there like a really clear coolgroup in your high school?
And like what, what did it meanto be popular in your high
school?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I went to a very classic American high school in
West Virginia and, um, like,okay, so there were about 1200
students in the school overall,so 400 in the class.
Um, and my school was verystratified because we I mean I
(11:05):
lived in a town that was auniversity town in West Virginia
, so there was like the poorestof the poor kids and then like
the doctor's kids I mean wedidn't have any celebrities or
anything like that Like theKibbe went to the gossip girl
school.
So that's a very differentexperience.
(11:27):
Yeah, yeah, Um, I mean thefootball players cheerleader no,
they had some like level ofpopularity, but I just I
remember there was like aparticular group of girls that
just did not want to accept me,and probably because I didn't
have that much in common withthem and I just wanted to be, I
just wanted to be seen like them.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Was it like, imagine, like Glee you know the show
Glee and all those like movieswas it really like they were
rock stars and they could do nolike do anything they want?
Or was it just like you know,there was a group that was like
the hot ones?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, just like you know, there was a group that was
like the hot ones.
Yeah, no, I don't think that.
Honestly, looking back on it, Imean I wish I could go back in
time and have a conversationwith my 14 year old self and be
like you're not missing out onanything, everything these
people have.
You're going to get in likethree years and you'll be fine.
I think my part of my issue isthat I didn't go through puberty
until pretty late, so I stilllooked very young until I was
(12:29):
like 17.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So I mean, I think, what I?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
wanted was I wanted boys to like me.
I wanted boys to see me as ahigh value target.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Um so more about the sexual, like the, the, the
dating, so more about the sexual, like the, the, the dating.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I think it had a lot to do with just like how I
conceptualize myself.
Like I was very I needed to bethe best, you know.
Like I had the same basichangups with academics where I
just couldn't get a four, oh,and I couldn't get into the
Ivies and I couldn't get intoDuke, and I was like I guess I'm
just relegated to being aboveaverage and that was not good
(13:11):
enough.
And it was the same thing inthe in, like the popular group.
I mean I think to an extentlike we grew up with all of
these movies, these coming ofage movies, all these high
school movies with the partiesand everything, and I wanted
that experience.
I've always been such anexperience junkie.
I just like want to tasteeverything and like
(13:36):
realistically, when I was asenior I went to parties all the
time.
They weren't those kinds ofparties but in West Virginia who
knows what we are holdinganyway.
I mean it's not like anybodyhad massive amounts of money.
There weren't bands playing atany of these parties.
I don't think so.
It's kind of I mean, lookingback, there was nothing I was
missing out on, but I candefinitely see how that shaped
(13:56):
Like there are just some peoplethat I will always feel
uncomfortable around and when Iwent on the Bachelor it was like
I mean, that was exact type ofpeople I was terrified of.
I was like I am not going tofit in.
I didn't do well in a sororityin college, so like that kind of
high status, like popularpretty girl who's just got all
(14:17):
this confidence and like is agirl's girl, I just don't know
what to do with.
Or I didn't know what to dowith.
I think now it's somewhatdifferent.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What were your thoughts and like obsessions or
fixations when you were in highschool, like when you were, when
you were thinking about wantingto be popular or noticing this?
Would you be like down onyourself or would you be trying
to look what were like, fit inwith them in some way, or oh,
kibbe, this is so embarrassingbut also amusing to me.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
my first you should be my first year of high school,
okay, so I in middle school Ihad these two best friends named
sam and k.
Okay, kate had been my bestfriend for a lot longer.
Sam was kind of like somewhatnew, but she was blonde,
beautiful, blue eyed, doe eyed,like, came from an artsy family,
(15:15):
you know.
So she just like looked shecould take the best photos in
MySpace MySpace was the thingyou got 12 photos right and sam,
that motherfucker always hadthe best 12 photos, so
irritating, I was always tryingto compete with her 12 photos.
Anyways, we formed aquote-unquote sisterhood with
our other friend, sarah, and, um, we did things like we made a
(15:40):
bag out of denim, like thesisterhood of the traveling
pants kind of deal, where wewould like pass it around and we
put secrets in the.
We like wrote down secrets onpaper and put it in the handle
of the bag and then one of themtried to take her secret out and
we fucking caught her.
Anyway, put that secret back in.
(16:01):
Uh, we had these like matchingshirts that were totally
shapeless and looked stupid andwe were like all wore them.
They were like different colors, we all wore them and like so
my, the cafeteria had like threelevels and we like walked down
the stairs, but in a horizontalline, like down the first level.
Uh, it's pretty embarrassing,um, but anyway, we, sam and I,
were kind of like the queen beesat first and I I was closer
(16:24):
with both sarah and kateinitially initially, but we all
mean girls had come out the yearbefore.
So we took our cues or at leastsam and I did from regina,
george and we.
We changed our voices, wechanged our affects.
We just said bitchy shit toeach other.
(16:45):
If I look at my yearbook fromback then, it's like I'm like
circling people and being likethat ugly, like how does she
like blue, this guy?
It's like terrible, like really, how did you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
talk back then.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I don't know if I could do it now but, I, don't.
I'm sure I'm sure a lot of likethat's gay, like that kind of
stuff, whatever like a littlefucker said back then.
You know, I mean, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I was just.
You're going to say somethingabout your hair.
I don't know that's hot.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I mean paraselticness like whatever we're just yeah
we're just mean and we just talkshit about each other.
So like constantly.
And then like sam and I had thecrush on the same senior boy
and like looking like, why washe interested especially in me?
Looking like prepubescent madeno sense, but he was, anyway.
(17:53):
I far outpaced him in terms ofhotness later.
But we just like you know, ohmy God, we I would like his name
was John, I would like have asecret conversation with John,
and then Sam would have a secretconversation with John, but we
pretended like we were tellingeach other everything but then
we would tell, like Kate or Kateor Sarah the thing.
(18:13):
Then they would tell us andwe'd get back to us and it was
just this like whole square ofnastiness and we all made out
with each other.
Sam and I made out with eachother first and we like
pressured Sarah into making outwith us.
I mean it was just absurd and Imean that was cool.
Well, I got ousted, is?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
the long and short of this no, I got ousted how did
that happen?
Like Regina George, yeah kindof.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I kind of don't remember how I got ousted.
I think part of it was over theJohn thing.
We were just talking so muchshit about each other all the
time that it was bound toimplode.
But what sucked was that Istarted out being closest to
everybody and then I got ousted.
And then Sam became theofficial queen bee and she got
so good at MySpace and I wasdecent at MySpace, but mostly I
(19:04):
was just copying Sam's MySpaceand the top eight.
This ruined my life.
I mean, this was a hugecomponent of my depression was
we all played games with the topeight, you know?
So like I'd be number one onSam's and on Kate's, but then
I'd be number three and I'd belike, why am I number three now?
(19:25):
And they'd be like, don't bedramatic, it's just my space.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know, that's why being a team now with Facebook
like it's, like all that, allthat social media to really
quantify all.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I know that top eight was a motherfucker, though I
mean I got.
I remember I had this hugecrush on this guy named Cody,
who that was.
That made no sense, but I waslike number eight on his top
eight for a second this is whatI mean.
When I was like a rung belowand I was so shocked I was like,
oh my God, he thinks I'm hisfriend, Like we're friends.
He never said anything about itand then one day I was no longer
(20:02):
on it.
I'm like okay, well, I don'tknow how to explain that
phenomenon, but just everybodyshifting each other around, you
know who was their best friendthat day.
You know, if you're a littlebit mad at a certain, you just
shift them down One or twopeople and they'll notice.
They'll notice.
So Brutal, how old were you?
How old was this?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I was 14 wow, that would have been crushing.
Yeah, I one of my dad's oldfavorite memories of me.
Um, he was so proud of this.
I don't remember the exact, theexact event that he's talking
about, but I do remember thegeneral time.
(20:43):
So there was a time and I had arougher time, I think in like
adolescence, because I was in anall girls school and yeah, it
was just like a bunch of likestrong willed, like you know,
like 12 year old girls are awful, like to put them all in the
same room for extended periodsof time.
Yeah, they're just like, likeit's brutal.
(21:05):
So my dad said that the populargirls at some point.
Well, it was really sad becauseI one of my best friends
growing up, marin um, I hope I'mgonna make her listen to this,
but she, you know, we were likefriends, friends, friends,
friends, where I like playingvideo games and all that stuff
and then she started hanging outwith a popular group and I
(21:27):
really hurt because it was shejust kind of like, was like and
kind of blowing me off, and Iwas like you know, yeah, like my
best friend was was leaving me,and apparently the popular
girls came over to me and waslike you know, we'll hang out
with you or we just like giveyou a makeover, or something
like that.
And apparently I said go fuckyourself.
(21:48):
That was one of my dad'sfavorite memories of me.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Good, for you.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I don't really remember.
I'm sure it was like morecomplicated than that and like
girls speak back and forth, butI think I do remember just
feeling sad that my friend wasgone to them and just having no
interest, but annoyed.
I was just annoyed at, like youknow, they're waving the power
and they were like hey, kibbe,you know, basically like
(22:16):
devaluing me.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I probably was like fuck you and you know, what was
the, what was the social capitalor the resource that you were
all currying for in an all girlsschool, all boys schools?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
but a lot of them would meet in Hebrew school.
The big Jewish population theselike New York schools, so they
would all meet at like 13.
And then start like kind ofdating each other, whereas I
didn't go to.
Hebrew school so I didn't knowguys.
So my friend marin was like inhebrew school dating all these
dudes and yeah, like she's justlike that, probably like boosted
(23:10):
her I'm so sorry, marin, that'sthe most new york shit I've
ever heard.
That's so funny, but we, we justwanted power.
I don't know, I don't knowexactly what the like you just
felt.
The power amongst women.
Yeah, like one thing was theattractiveness and ability to
get attention, but it's alsojust like who could command the
(23:32):
room, like who's setting thetone.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Right.
So there's some reallyinteresting research that looked
at like curvilinear data.
So it wasn't just likeBasically, it was looking at
like a range of popularity andnot just seeing like a linear
correlation, like you know, like, as you get more popular, you
(23:59):
get more pro-social, or whateverit was like.
At what points in this range ofpopularity is, like,
pro-sociality strongest, and soone of the comparisons they were
doing was childhood popularityversus adolescent popularity and
they found that childhoodpopularity was more associated
with pro-social behavior.
So they're nicer, basically,and adolescent popularity was
(24:23):
less associated with pro-socialbehavior.
Mid range, like averagepopularity was so like those
kids were nicer, but as you gotmore popular was so like those
kids were nicer.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
But as you got more popular, you became more
aggressive.
What the hell did you just say,okay, like, let's bring it down
if you were popular inadolescence.
What happens if you areaggressive later on in adulthood
?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
no, no, if you were average popularity, average
popularity.
So, like me, you are morepro-social.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You're nicer.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You have lots of friends right, but as you get
more popular, so the reallypopular kids, they're more
aggressive, and that makes sensebecause they had to basically
keep their power.
They're more dominant, more youknow like.
This is how they have this sortof status, and this does seem
(25:19):
to exist into adulthood.
An interesting thing is thatthe least popular kids in
adolescence no, I think this isactually childhood they actually
then became more aggressive inadulthood, which isn't super
surprising either, because yeah,um, but that was kind of cool
(25:41):
that that is cool.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So wait, how do, how do we, how do we understand that
?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
if I were going to map on, if I were going to map
on careers, the really reallythe really really popular kids
would be ceos and doctors, andthe middle, the average popular
kids like me, would betherapists and teachers.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Like I, had a lot of friends.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I just didn't have status okay, that's what.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
That's what the confusing part about this
popularity question Is it apeople who just like,
objectively have more friends,or in a in a social hierarchy,
yeah, or you perceive yourself,or this is something that you
just say about yourself Like Ifelt popular or unpopular makes
(26:33):
a difference.
Like I wasn't popular, but Iprobably have the same number of
friends as I don't know anyother kid yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
So, as hypothesized, adolescent popularity was
associated with powerful andforceful behaviors and status
indicators in emerging adulthood, such as proactive relational
aggression, dominance andinfluence.
Popularity in childhood andadolescence was measured by
asking longitudinal participantsand their classmates to
(27:03):
nominate who were most popularand who were least popular
within their classroom so theyhad to rate who were popular,
interesting.
Yeah, they could nominate allclassmates irrespective of sex
or gender, but could notnominate themselves interesting.
That's a good study I knowthat's a really good study.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Okay, all right, I'm in, I'm in.
Um, yeah, I guess it's likewhat traits you develop, like to
get power, and I guess thatthat makes more sense in
adolescence versus any othertime.
Right, like, yeah, to reallydominate, that's interesting and
then have have that be like anaggressive quality.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I'm aggressive, but I , I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't
popular you know, um, yeah, Imean it was kind of interesting,
cause we all think of kids askind of mean, but I was actually
popular for a year inelementary school and I did not
even realize it.
I had a click.
Everyone wanted to be in it.
(28:02):
We rejected everyone, it wasjust for us four.
And then this one girl, morgan.
She went to whine to her momand her mom was like my
daughter's being excluded and wehad to have this big like all
the girls in the class had tostay behind during recess and
talk to the teacher and theteacher was like there's a click
here.
That is not acceptable, it'sover.
Today we're disbanding it.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And it was my click oh yeah my goodness, it's so
funny yeah because I think we'reprobably like equal popularity,
but you seem to care a lot.
You guys were very embroiledlike you were.
You.
I could hear the social, thefighting, the fighting for the
social hierarchy in your stories.
I was just like I wonder if oneof the reasons is that I had
(28:48):
older siblings and I wasconstantly comparing myself to
their success.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Like I saw, my brothers were pretty popular.
Okay and so.
I was always on.
They're, they're both very goodlooking in high school and they
both I mean they both got cutegirls.
Um, yeah, I mean I justremember like I mean, charlie,
(29:14):
charlie went to college when Iwas like 10, but they both had a
lot of friends over, likeandrew's friends were very
clearly cool, like they had veryrelevant contemporary senses of
humor, they listened to theright music, they wore the right
clothes, they had a cute, cutegirlfriend.
I mean it was just, like youknow, kind of apparent, um and
(29:39):
and then my friends alwaysthought my brothers were hot.
They were always like talkingabout that.
So I felt like I was incompetition with my sister to be
smart and then with my brother,andrew, in particular, to be
popular.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Andrew in particular, to be popular.
Oh so the real, the real highschool popular unpopularity
contest was in the Trumbull home.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, yeah, we had a lot of competitions going into
Trumbull home.
My parents put zero pressure onme to be popular.
I mean my mom could not giveless of a shit about that.
She wasn't.
I mean, actually she kind ofwas popular.
She pretended like she wasn'tpopular.
She was kind of popular in highschool but she, like my mom,
does not try to fit in withanybody, like if my mom was very
(30:23):
take it or leave it with her.
I mean, she knows how to getpeople to like her, but she
would never have a vapidconversation if it meant being
liked so what did what did itmean for you to, for you guys to
be popular, like when, likewho's you guys?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
you, you and your siblings.
What would getting popular mean?
Is it the power or is it the?
Is it the friendship?
Because now that we're mixing,there's two different
definitions.
Right, it's like people likingyou versus being on top which is
very different.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
yeah, I wanted to be on top.
I had plenty of friends.
What did top mean?
Like what would that mean?
I get invited to all theparties, like there was a
conspicuous lack of for, forinstance, valentine's Day there
would be that.
Did you guys have this?
The carnation thing, where youcould buy a carnation and like
have somebody send it to yourcrush?
(31:23):
Oh, that's fun.
Oh, my God, I know I wantedthat so bad.
Every freaking Valentine's DayI'd be like is this going to be
the year?
Is someone going to send me one?
No, I never did.
I never got like secret notesin my locker or like anybody you
know nobody from my schoolasked me to prom.
(31:44):
I mean I wound up going with mybest friend, eric, who actually
had another girlfriend.
He went with me instead, butthat's okay, I mean.
Mean, it wasn't a romanticthing, it was just I had we'd
agreed to it earlier.
So, yeah, I just felt like Iwas missing out on a lot of like
high school major experiences,markers, I guess, major events
(32:07):
so then, what did it feel liketo get the popularity during the
bachelor times?
Fucking amazing and also badbecause I didn't get the
popularity but I got.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Kevin and I were talking before this you were in
the bachelor you, you still getthat right?
Speaker 1 (32:24):
yeah, no, I think it.
I think it essentially healedthis part of me.
Um, when I first went on thebachelor I I had two thoughts,
like two competing thoughts.
One was like holy shit, I feelanointed by the universe, like
I'm a special person, I get tobe a special person.
And then my second thought wasthere's no way in hell I'm going
(32:45):
to last more than three weekson the show, cause I was like
I'm not one of those people.
I'm not one of those girls Likethe.
The casting agents are in theirare in middle age and I've
always done well with much olderpeople.
So where I actually started tofeel cool was in college a
little bit in Slovakia actually,because I was like the American
(33:07):
exchange student who got a lotof attention and boys liked me
there.
And then in college, when Istarted going to New York and
was fucking my boss, like that,you know, I was like I couldn't
get into the best frat partiesat UVA, but like I was like
fucking a rich CEO.
So I don't know, I mean thatthat was something.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I could hold.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Um so yeah, but I was like I was like the bachelor is
the definition of people, Ithat do not get me and do not
like me.
And so I went on and, yeah, Iwasn't the cool girl on the
Bachelor, for probably multiplereasons.
One was that I did not putmyself front and center.
(33:48):
But what I did experience wasthat actually most of those
girls did like me and they werereally cool to me Like no one
sucked.
And then Kendall comes, likeyou know, carrying like four
taxidermied animals under herarms.
So I was like wow, like who,who knew?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I guess these are all women who were different and
owned it right, who are justlike confident, confident in
like being a little weirdo andbeing different, but also
conventionally attractive.
Yes, it helps.
Yes, they're gorgeous women.
Yeah, they'll help, uh-huh yeahlike what.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Would it like to walk around afterwards and people be
like she was on tv amazing butyou have to like okay, it's so
funny when people wouldapologize Like I'm so sorry.
I'm sure you get asked aboutthis all the time and you know
my star is like it's basicallycompletely it's like a red dwarf
(34:51):
right now.
I mean, whatever the one islike about to be totally dead,
whatever I'm like.
No, if you want to make me feelcool and famous one more time
before I sputter out like, be myguest Totally, that's totally
welcome.
Um, but at the time it was acombined thing right when, like
all of the all the people fromhigh school started pouring into
(35:11):
my Facebook friend requests.
So that was awesome.
I was like reject, reject,reject, reject.
Um, and then, like I had a kindof cache from that that you
just get to have for the rest ofyour life, which is amazing.
But I also had all my airtimewiped and people hated me on
Reddit and I was like see, I'mnot the right like, I'm not
(35:32):
somebody that people broadlylike.
So you know, and it was thisthing where I almost got it.
I almost got total redemptionwhere I was like I almost was in
the top four If I didn.
I was like I almost was in thetop four if I didn't pick my
fucking job almost in the topfour, like would have been about
hundreds of thousands ofInstagram followers and I would
(35:53):
have been like I'm a cool girl.
Instead, I was not a cool girl.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, what would your life be different Like, let's
say.
Let's say, yeah, if you couldlike take the adolescent you had
, like another, you had anotherhigh school period.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And the bachelor, where you got to be like you
know, got to be like within thecool, cool kids.
What would it have been like ifyou stayed on that show instead
of going to work?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Okay, I'll give you the idealized version and then
what's probably the realisticversion.
Yeah, the idealized desiredversion is that I could step
into any room with totalconfidence, cause I'd be like
I'm one of those people thateveryone likes and admires and
envies and I'd be able to talkto any guy and any girl and I'd
(36:51):
be invited to everything, andeveryone would be jealous of me.
Yay.
The probable reality is that Iwould have been sucked much more
strongly into a toxichierarchical system that would
have chewed me up and spit meout and I would have had a
greater sense of cachet.
(37:11):
Like I do enjoy that part, butlike I mean the most tangible
thing that I would have actuallywanted was money Like they.
Just if I would have had500,000 Instagram followers, I'd
be a lot wealthier right now.
So that would have been greatand there would have been cool
opportunities.
You know, this podcast could behuge and et cetera.
(37:32):
But I think, just from thepopularity status aspect like
what my core, like what my core,what my ego wanted to heal was
that kind of idealized, like noone will reject me, I'll just,
everyone will want to be me,kind of deal.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I mean I think.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
In reality, most people just get stuck in these
hierarchical systems and theyget pushed around and then new
girls come and they're morepopular and you lose your
Instagram followers and all thisshit happens, right?
I just had a more rapidexperience of that.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Wow, so funny that the the the tips from this
episode is yeah, just go on TV,go on national television, and
that is a way to heal yourchildhood wounds.
Popularity this become popular.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
That was what I suggested.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
It's great.
No downsides, no notes.
No the rest of us are not on TV.
The research does show that ifyou really all of how you
understand your your pastexperiences right, like if you
internalize it, it like everyonebeat me up because I'm a
(38:47):
terrible person and they sawwhere it really was and everyone
hates it, right, then you couldthen it would be like that
would affect your self-esteem,right the way you make it
general to your whole character.
If you're like I mean, we justwere different kinds of people
and those kids were kind ofbullies and you know, like I had
(39:11):
some friends and I had a goodtime right, so that would
actually be a little bit moreprotective like, first of all,
research shows that even justhaving one close friend is very
protective.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
So, like, if you're a parent, you know, I mean even
just finding one friend to justlike friendship to foster, just
you know, do that.
I think that saves you fromlike the worst of the effect.
I mean, if your kid isfriendless, that's it's a huge
problem.
Um, you know, I mean you canalso do things like find online
communities discord, you know,and like knowing people who do
that.
I'm a little bit wary ofsuggesting that, though, because
I think it can encourage shutin behavior.
(39:50):
Yeah, so I think that's adouble edged sword.
But yeah, I mean, if, like,realistically speaking, you know
, I had groups of friends and.
I was never going to wind upwith the really negative effects
of the deeply unpopular kidsbecause I had plenty of friends,
(40:10):
so that wasn't the issue.
Um, but I think, like I thinkif I think new york was
extremely good for me, basicallyfirst going to college and
understanding, like collegethere's no popularity, I mean
there there's almost more wealthstratification at uva.
So there was, like some, forsome sororities I was never
(40:30):
going to get into because Iwasn't like an old deep south,
like old money family butwhatever.
um, but you know it's just likefinding whenever you're in a
bigger community, there's morepeople you can find and there's
just less direct comparison.
So there's.
I think actually that'sprobably a curvilinear thing too
(40:51):
.
When it's a really smallcommunity you don't have that
problem.
But then when it's like big,like my high school, but not big
enough like a college, you'regoing to see that stratification
start.
And then when it gets evenbigger, you can't see the
stratification as much.
And then when it gets reallybig, like New York, you sort of
see it.
You know that there are elites,but you don't.
(41:12):
They're not next to you,they're not sitting at the
cafeteria table next to you,unless you're Kibbe and you go
to school with AlexandraDaddario.
Good, you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, I mean it's just it, it.
It is so interesting to hearhow how much this sits with you
like how this, yeah, this likereally shaped your identity.
It's interesting I'm trying tothink about like did how much
did it actually shape myidentity?
I was more mostly sucked into arelationship in high school, so
I all my focus was in in that wewere like a tumultuous high
conflict couple and we wouldfight all the time.
(41:58):
So my thoughts were more aboutthat.
I didn't really and we were ina bigger like friend group, but
I didn't really care this wasbefore the psychopathic dude no,
it's that.
Was that's one?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
yeah, okay yeah did you date in college too?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
a little bit okay.
Yeah, I had mostly boyfriends,so I think I didn't really focus
on the social like status thing.
I was mostly focused on myrelationships, I think Did you
care about?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
their status, your boyfriend's status.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
No, but I cared about winning one person over.
So maybe you cared aboutwinning a group of people over,
but I cared about getting thatguy's attention.
Whoever my crush was, I wantedhim and I wanted him to notice
me.
I didn't care what status oryou know all the other people
around me, but I, I cared aboutthat one boy.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
The last time I had truly pure and good taste in men
was in fifth grade Shout out toPatrick Cushing, he knows this
but I had the biggest crush onhim for like one to two years
and I liked him because he wassmart and I thought he was cute
and he wore this really cuteyellow jacket.
And then after after that, allI cared about was status.
So I will say, like,extracurriculars are huge too.
(43:13):
I mean, I I went to, I wasobsessed with college, getting
into the best college, alsostatus.
And, um, I got a brochure inthe mail that was like, hey,
join us at Princeton or Stanfordor Harvard or wherever the fuck
.
And for a politics summer camp.
I had no interest in politicsbut I saw Ivy leagues Right, so
I signed up instantaneously andI went and it was like best
(43:35):
summer of my life and I met allof these other like Ivy bound
kids and we talked about likepolitics and philosophy.
And then I came back to myschool and I started a chapter
about like politics andphilosophy.
And then I came back to myschool and I started a chapter
and then that we as a chapter wehad like conventions with other
chapters in ohio and stuff.
So I was, I was popular there,so I was able to have this
(43:55):
parallel experience where I wasreally accepted and like desired
and that really helped.
So I I think like if your kid ison the nerdier side, like, have
them join robotics club.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
They might be the cool kid in the room then, or,
at least you know, accepted withlike-minded peers know what
this means in terms of parentingbecause, like you, could assume
that maybe, maybe thepopularity in high school is
just a reflection of your social.
(44:30):
You know, like your attachmentstuff, right, like you're a
little weird or detached oraggressive when you're a kid.
People don't really like youthen, or like some people who
are on the spectrum or somethingwho have a hard time with
connecting to others, right,they or they were like like
higher rates of being bulliedand then so they might have
mental health issues in thefuture.
(44:51):
But who knew?
Like chicken or the egg, right.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
But also, like I wonder if, if you have, like a
stable family life of parentswho you know who love you right,
then then they're, that's thatsecondary attachment might not
need to matter as much.
Right, like you kind of beweird, you know you could be sad
(45:18):
, but if you come home toparents who, like, are there for
you and really see you, I thinkthat probably would carry
stronger over what kids do Imean a thousand percent.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I also think, though, that having really loving
parents is going to make itinfinitely more likely that you
are a likable kid, becauseyou're going to be able to form
stable relationships and have ahigh enough self-esteem to
present well.
But, yeah, I mean I you know,yeah, for if a kid would like
has autism or something and justgenuinely has like a social
deficit, then I I don't evenknow if they would care about
(45:50):
status in the same way.
Um, I don't know like it wouldbe interesting to see what kinds
of people care about status andwhich which don't.
Cause I again like I wasn'trewarded by my parents for
popularity, I was for beauty but, it's not like they cared when
I went through puberty.
I mean that was all about likeattraction for men.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I was way more interested in academic success.
No surprise there, right, likebeing being getting the highest
marks and stuff like that in thebest grades.
Yeah, I think I would and Iwould encourage my kids to have
that attitude towards popularity.
It's like enjoy the people thatyou're, that you click with and
(46:33):
have like, who are like goodpeople, who are into what you're
into, and like support you thenlike fight for popularity, like
I would try to teach, teachJackson that of like focus on
the people who are like you knowwhat you really care about.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I again, like, I mean my my
brothers would always say, likehigh school popularity does not
matter, especially in WestVirginia, especially if you have
money in West Virginia.
I mean this is sort of a sadthing to say, but like my life
plan always involved, uh,surpassing most of my peers,
because most people are going tobe stuck in West Virginia,
(47:09):
whereas my family had the moneyto launch me into it, you know
an out of state college andbeyond.
So you know, looking back on mythe popular kids now like
they're not doing so hot and I'mno longer super proud of that.
Like I'd like it if people werejust successful.
I have no beef with themanymore.
But that was just reality.
Your situation was totallydifferent.
(47:31):
But I mean it just sounds likeyou didn't necessarily need that
anyway.
Um, but I mean when I, when Igave up on the popular thing
that was just after my firstyear in high school, like I did
not keep pursuing that.
I think I wanted somecarnations at Valentine's day
still, but I like I became.
One thing I'll say about myself, and I've always been like this
, is that I would never not befriends with somebody because
(47:53):
they weren't popular.
At least I don't think that'strue, I was friends with like
people all across the spectrum,um, and I just like leaned much
more heavily into genuinefriendships and then was
genuinely sort of happy um andgot into parties and pursued jsa
(48:14):
, the politics club and andeverything.
So I also want to instill thatin my kids.
But, like I think it's so, Ireally think for me the big
thing was that I was discoveringwho I was and I was getting
information that I could notmake it onto the highest rungs
of anything, and that was likethe real problem for me.
And so I think with, yeah, mykids it's going to be like a you
(48:37):
really have to believe me thatyou are not done developing and
that one context is not going togive you very much information
about who you're going to be inother contexts.
So, like, please have patience,let's get you into other
contexts.
I'm going to I'm going to.
I'm, I'm going to go in hardwith my kids Cause I'm so
worried about the asociality ofof today's teens.
(48:58):
Um, but I'm, yeah, I mean, I'mgoing to be setting up plays,
play dates, out the wazoo.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
What would you say are different ways that people
who are not popular in highschool and it's still haunts
them, it's still affects like nomatter what.
They might have good friends,they might have a good life, but
they just can't shake thefeeling that they're not cool.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You answer first.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
first, you have not um, yeah, I mean I guess you
could, you know, rewrite thenarrative right, like, as we're
saying, that it matters how yousee that past right like maybe
when you look back on the pastand you focus on the times that
you know you weren't top eighton MySpace, yeah, Like your mind
(49:48):
might fixate on those details,but then you might want to
remember things like what, whatwere things that you did that
you were proud of?
When when did you have the besttime?
When were you like laughing sohard that you, like you and your
friends, couldn't stop?
Yeah, what did people like youfor that you did like you, like
you and your friends couldn'tstop?
Yeah, what do people like youfor that do did like you.
You know, and are those youknow always.
(50:10):
The easiest one is are thosepopular kids still popular?
Or did they peak in high schoolRight.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, I mean, I actually think that the research
today's is kind of helpful inthis.
It's like when we think aboutwho's the most popular, they're
not the most popular because noteven because they're the best
looking or because they're thenicest or the most interesting
or the smartest or anything likethat it is because they are,
they have higher levels ofpowerful and forceful behaviors.
(50:38):
You know, so like that's notnecessarily a good thing.
I mean, it can, it can beadaptive in certain contexts.
But you know also, highpopularity is a huge like.
It's highly associated with,like risky behaviors, which
makes sense.
You know, like really popularkids are giving each other blow
jobs and doing cocaine at likethe age of 15.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
So do you know that in new york, at these bar and
bat mitzvahs, these parties thatwe used to go to when they were
like when kids turned 13, oh,no, kids are like giving each
other blowjobs in the middle oflike a dance floor well, I mean,
that's very impressive aboutthe dance floor.
(51:22):
I haven't even seen that inadulthood, but like there might
be a chair involved, but whatI'm saying is 13 year old kids
giving each other bjs in public.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
God my scars.
But I mean I grew up in westvirginia.
Like I remember in the fifthgrade like kids were caught
doing drugs in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
So I mean there is all sorts of shit, I want the
kids to go that far, but a lotof teen pregnancy and stuff what
else do you do if you were notcool and you're like oh well, I
always feel not cool, yeah well,yeah, I mean again, like, maybe
(52:03):
the reason you weren't popularin high school was because you
actually had really good traitsthat just aren't.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
They don't have mass market appeal.
So like, if we think of, if wethink of Proust, okay, the
novelist, he has criticalacclaim, but he does not have
mass market appeal.
Like the best, the best, themost, like the most smart,
(52:32):
interesting, you know,fascinating people are probably
not going to be wildly popularin high school.
So it doesn't necessarily saysomething bad about you if you
were not the most popular kid inhigh school.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You're just prused.
You're just prused man.
That's pretty dope, in fact Ilike that.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I like that mantra I like that that's a good closing
statement.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, I mean.
So, like the, the people whowere most popular in high school
, probably, like I mean theymight have they probably had
some combination of like aforcefulness, dominance,
aggression, um, some pro-socialbehavior and also, just like
they liked the popular shit,there was probably an element of
unoriginality Mainstream,mainstream.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, so don't be basic.
And then the other tip is go onnational television.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Go on national television.
Move to New.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
York.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
You girl.
So tips for if you are stillsuffering from low self-esteem
because you weren't popular inhigh school, so yeah, I mean I
would say like really try toreframe what popularity actually
probably meant in high school.
I don't know.
I think a lot of this is justlike we we build scar tissue
(53:46):
over that wound that keepsaffecting us even when it's no
longer appropriate, right, likeyou may just be holding onto
something just because it it wasa wound that formed early
enough to to cut you deep enoughto build scar tissue, and so
really working through that ispossible.
Like it really might beirrelevant at this point.
(54:08):
You could be somebody who haslots of friends, who has a
partner, right, but the thing is, is that, like I mean I can say
this about me, I've said itright Like I lost confidence
around certain people because Ihad beliefs about my likability
or desirability around thosepeople, and that might be the
very thing that's keeping youstuck in this wound is your own
(54:29):
belief, your own limitingbeliefs about yourself, and like
what kinds of people couldpossibly like you or what
fashion you could possibly wear.
That was another thing.
Like I never felt like I couldpull off cool girl fashion, um,
for whatever fucking reason youknow, try.
I mean my advice is always tojust like get disconfirming
evidence, try new things.
(54:51):
Like invest, invest in yourlook.
Like put you know, get theblowout, get the makeup done.
Like buy the clothes you reallywant to buy and just try it out
for a while, like see what fits, but also see what you feel
like natural in.
And not because you're limitingyourself, not because you have
negative beliefs and think youneed to wear like a baggy
(55:12):
t-shirt or nothing you know, butbecause like oh, this feels
authentically me, like what isgoing to make you confident.
So I mean I would say, investin confidence yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
How we would say with our clients is if you were
confident or you were feelingself-assured or whatever, what
would you be doing differently,right?
And then just act that way,like fake it till you, make it
yeah, and then get on tv.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, and then go on tv and then be unpopular on TV,
but still more popular than likemost people that you went to
high school with.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Or make a monkey meme that has now gotten 9 million
views.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Damn, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Cool of mine to look it up on Instagram.
It's like regular posts aboutmental health and relationships
and one monkey meme I made.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
I got nine million views so I think what we're
saying is keep chasing thedragon, like, yeah, keep going
for popularity that's whatthat's how you could heal the
problem of being not popular um,yeah, I mean I you know, but
take, take pride in whatevermakes you unusual.
I mean, I do feel like I've,I've at least gotten there yeah,
(56:31):
yeah, I mean, this self-esteemis really how we understand.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
You know a lifetime of interactions with people.
How do like?
Who are we compared to, like inrelation to others?
And you can focus on the badstuff, or you could focus on the
whole picture, or you couldfocus on the good stuff.
And so yeah just askingyourself, like I might not have
been popular, but what was Iproud of or what?
What did I like about me as akid?
Speaker 1 (57:03):
right, right.
Maybe you were too busystudying to be fucking popular.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
You know, maybe studying I was playing video
games.
I was I don't even know.
I was not cool.
I was squarely not cool and Ithink I didn't care.
Yeah I mean that I enjoy beinga dork.
What?
Speaker 1 (57:23):
is that like?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (57:26):
like it's really fun you play a lot of Zelda have one
or two couple best friends.
Everyone's fussing over whatthey wear.
I've been wearing the samething since I was at like
leggings and a baggy t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
That's what I wear all the time.
Realistically speaking, if welook at a person who's 30 years
old and if they weren't cool inhigh school but they've got
friends now, like it's likethey're holding themselves to
the standard of when they weredefinitely at their least cool,
because every high schoolstudent is at their least cool
in their entire lifespan.
I mean, maybe some people Iguess that's not true the people
(58:04):
who are really popular and thentake a nosedive.
This doesn't apply to them, butin general, people who are have
a basic level of flourishing.
Now, when they're in highschool, they're actually kind of
a loser, right, they had anadolescent sense of humor.
They thought really dumb shitwas funny.
That wasn't.
You know, they were trying tofit in all over the place.
Like that's what you're blamingyourself for not being
(58:26):
successful in.
And the people who didn't likeyou like that's what we're
concerned about.
Like those people who nowfollow their you know, follow
their trajectory and they'reprobably not cool.
That's what you're holding onto.
Versus today, when you have,like people who love you and
(58:47):
value you and you know we'll flyto Portugal when you're not
even getting married to supportyou and all of that.
So, um, good reframe.
Thank you, thank you.
So I didn't actually mean anyof that stuff.
I said and I do want to bepopular.
So if you want to give us massmarket appeal, feel free to give
us a five-star rating on Applepodcasts or Spotify and we'll
(59:08):
see you next week.
By accessing this podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
(59:35):
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the Thank you and donot constitute the practice of
medical or any otherprofessional judgment, advice,
diagnosis or treatment andshould not be considered or used
as a substitute for theindependent professional
judgment, advice, diagnosis ortreatment of a duly licensed and
qualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
(59:57):
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
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such approval or endorsement.
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