Navigating Boundaries and Grief: Dr. Caitlin Fang's Journey Through Family Mental Health Challenges

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When faced with the heart-wrenching decision to set boundaries with a loved one battling mental health issues, the choice is never easy. Many of us choose to estrange ourselves and cut off contact with difficult parents for our own wellbeing, but we also risk losing them forever. In this special episode, psychotherapist Dr. Caitlin Fang returns to share her deeply personal experiences with her mother, who struggled with depression, substance abuse, and schizoaffective disorder. She takes us through the emotional labyrinth of setting boundaries to protect herself and her child, while navigating the turbulent waters of unresolved grief after her mother's passing.

Dr. Fang's story sheds light on the complex dynamics of mental health within families. As she reflects on her upbringing, Caitlin shares insights into how her mother's mental health challenges shaped her resilience and empathy as a therapist. We explore the difficult balance between anger and forgiveness, the emotional tug-of-war of supporting a parent in crisis, and the profound realization of not being able to save a loved one from their struggles.

***Thinking of setting boundaries with a difficult family member or a loved one with mental illness? Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to get the support you need

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• If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.

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Episode Transcript

Jacqueline Trumbull (00:15):
Hey, little Helpers.
We've done quite a few episodesnow about having complicated
family members.
We've talked about what it'slike to set boundaries with
those family members, what it'slike to kind of be in
relationship to them and try tohelp them, and we've talked
about what it's like to beestranged from them, and now

(00:37):
we're going to talk about whatit's like to grieve them.
So we have the guest from our,I believe, most popular episode
to date, dr Caitlin Fang, backwith us today to talk to us
about her experience with hermom.
So welcome back, caitlin.
Thanks guys, can you tell us alittle bit about what your

(01:00):
relationship with your mom waslike?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:02):
Yeah, big time .
So this may be redundant,redundant and that's okay.
My mom struggled a lot.
She had a lot of reallysignificant trauma when she was
quite young and developeddepression and substance abuse

(01:23):
that ultimately devolved intopretty severe psychosis and
delusions and paranoia that wewere out to get her and assault
her and kill her.
Um and so we have been dealingwith like lots and lots of
hospitalizations, all of thelike urgent care things that as

(01:45):
a psychologist, I was likepretty well equipped to handle
through college, through gradschool, lots and lots of suicide
attempts and lots of like angryaccusations paired with like
desperate loving.
And then, man, I guess it wasalmost three years ago I got

(02:06):
pregnant and all of a sudden waslike some like really deep set
biological drive kicked in whereI was like nope, I am going to
protect this little being at allcosts and I am never going to
have her go through what I'mgoing through, all costs, and I
am never going to have her gothrough what I'm going through.
And also like I need myresources that I've been

(02:27):
devoting for two plus decades togo into raising this kid.
And so I gave her an ultimatumof sorts where it's like hey, I
really love you and, like youstruggle with schizoaffective
disorder.
We'd had this conversation manytimes.
She goes in and out of likeeither being really paranoid

(02:50):
that I'm out to get her or beinglike, oh, I see it With like
increasing frequency ofpsychosis over the years.
But I told her like hey, like Ineed you to seek long-term
therapy here's a list of peoplewho are qualified in the area
and I need you to be onmedication for this and if not,

(03:11):
like you cannot be in my life.
And so I will check in onceevery six weeks and like, if you
have not done it, then I amgoing to like block you again
and we'll check back in.
And it is not that I hate youor I'm mad at you.
It just is like I really needyou to step up and you to take

(03:32):
care of yourself in order tolike be a healthy influence in
my world.
Sadly, she never did, and so,yeah, at first I think she was
blocked for the first year of mykid's life and like most of my

(03:52):
pregnancy, with every six weekschecking in.
And then I was like a littlemore resilient, was like a
little more resilient and sounblocked her and got a bunch of
like crazy, crazy voicemailsevery couple weeks, being like I
know what you're doing and I'vecontacted a lawyer about the

(04:16):
deed fraud and the police willbe at your house any moment.
To like sobbing I love you,please don't let me let them
kill me.
I just love you so much, andjust like cycling through.
There were times where Ilistened to them, times when I
forward them to a friend to see,like does she need to be in the
hospital imminently?

(04:37):
And like, offered for her tomeet my kid, really hoped that
would be the hook, and she was,like I can't go out in public, I
can't go to a park, so I can'tmeet her, um.
And then she died a few weeksago, um, and there was no
beautiful bow that tied ittogether and she died scared.

(05:01):
And she wasn't alone.
She had a partner, but one whoreally didn't understand mental
health and didn't know what sheneeded, and so she really just
like was psychotic most of thetime.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:19):
You could share how much you want to, but
how did she die?
What were the circumstances?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (05:26):
great question , kibbs.
Um, she died in the night andwe don't know it.
Like we could have gotten anautopsy.
They didn't perform one, um,and my impulse was like yep, yep
, cause like she was 57, she waspretty young, she was so, so

(05:49):
ill and also like verycockroachy.
Like I knew this was the end,but there was no like imminent
thing that happened.
And so I talked to a bunch ofpeople and they're like is there
an answer that would bring youpeace?
Like would it help you to knowshe died of a heart attack or an

(06:10):
overdose or like some medicalmalpractice?
And like there just wasn't ananswer that would help outside
of like being able to latch onto anger instead of sadness, and
so we didn't do it, and nowthere's just like a hovering

(06:30):
question mark.
But I was pretty sure from avery young age that she would
die by suicide and like Iimagine it as a consequence of
many, many years of reallysignificant drug abuse.

Jacqueline Trumbull (06:50):
When I think about losing my own mother
.
I'd be losing somebody whoalways took care of me and was
there for me, and there'ssomething terrifying about that.
But that is not therelationship you had with your
mother.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (07:03):
It sure is not .
No, in fact, like quite theopposite.
I think when I was young she Idon't really remember, but I
think that was the toughest partwas getting ready for funeral.
I pulled as many photos as Icould.
I like learned about it in themorning and had to be up there

(07:25):
at night, so just like randomlypulled every shred of thing I
could because we were making aslideshow and I just saw this
one.
She had me when she was so youngI think she was 19 when I was
born, 18 when she got pregnantwith me.
Then I saw this one picture ofher and like these hideous

(07:46):
jammies, like a full, like jamset, and she was like 19,
clearly exhausted, like that,like look that you have as a new
parent, where it's just likedeliriously tired, surrounded by
toys and like knowing what Iknow about her.
I think she really rocked likeyoung childhood because she was

(08:09):
a kid and it was fun and it wassilly, um.
But as soon as I hit four orfive, I think like it reached a
place where I had my ownthoughts and my own things and I
wasn't this like built-inplaymate and so I just kept
getting harder for her and Ithink by the time I was 11, I

(08:34):
was making sure we were eating.
I was getting myself to school.
I was like stealing food fromthe food cafe, from the school
cafeteria, like I was prettyself-sufficient, pretty young
what do you remember from thatlike, can you give me?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:52):
I mean, I can't even imagine what that's
like as like a four or five yearold actually good kind of
candid voice, but what did thatfeel like back then?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (09:03):
it felt totally normal, honestly like
siblings, and so it was my wholeframe of reference.
I think like parents would getinto really explosive fights.
I was often in the middle ofthem, like literally like they
would like come in and she'd belike he's trying to hurt me,
call the cops if he movestowards me.
And he'd be like he's trying tohurt me, call the cops if he

(09:24):
moves towards me.
And he'd be like she's crazy,don't do that.
And I would just be in my bedbeing like what, what are we
doing, team?
And like some psychoticepisodes, like she tried to kill
me at some point because shewas really psychotic, like
really significant, severe stuff, but without any frame of

(09:45):
reference.
It was truly just like normallife until one day I was telling
my friend some story that waslike I was locked in a bathroom
by my mom and was just like likeTuesday, you know, like truly
did not even think it was weird,and they like reported it to
guidance counselor.

(10:06):
I had to go ahead.
And they were like we mighthave to call CPS and I was like,
oh okay, this is like notwhat's just happening at
everyone's house and it actuallybecame like a lot more
distressing, like in the I, Ididn't know anything other than
to be really independent, and Ihad a lot of life where I was
just like my dad was verywealthy and would kind of buy

(10:27):
things to uh, make up for therest of my life, and so, like I
had a giant Beanie Babiescollection.
I had really cool video games.
Everyone loved my house becausemy mom's always like asleep and
we could eat a bunch ofdunkaroos and do whatever we
wanted, and so it wasn't until,like the curtain was pulled

(10:49):
where I was like oh, oh, that itstarted to be like wait.
So like what is everyone elsedoing?
They're literally having familydinners and like talking about
their feelings.
Are you kidding me?

Jacqueline Trumbull (11:02):
um, yeah, what do you remember about your
affect back then?
I mean you're saying it'snormal but at the same time it's
hard to imagine you could havehad a happy childhood if you, if
your mother's trying to killyou.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (11:17):
I hear you and also I don't.
I I really don't have like alot of memories from inside of
my body.
I think it's part of how mybrain works which is like quite
bad at visualizing, but I thinklike like I was like the class
president and the star of theschool play and all the teachers

(11:41):
loved me and like kind of likemy impression when you guys met
me in grad school where peoplewere like wow, she's just like
happy all the time and I'm likewhat?
So I think just like reallygood at masking.
I don't remember a lot of likedistress.
I remember some moments where Iwould like go out to the woods
and like camp out there, which Iassume was in response to

(12:05):
something distressing.
But even that felt like this,like little adventure, because I
grew up in this like posh thingwith like a little enclave in
my backyard and it was just likethis is what we do and we make
up lots of fun stories and gowith it and so like high school
was a mess.
Like once I figured out,everything was a mess and I was

(12:29):
able to start trying to setboundaries.
Things like really went dark.
But I think I was legitimatelya happy kid, I think I like I
got to go and see a bunch ofBroadway plays, I got to hang
out with my friends a lot.
I went to sleep away summercamp for like eight weeks every
summer.
Like things felt normal, untilhigh school where it was like oh

(12:56):
, you have to hide this, likethis is bad.
And then I think the shame waslike oh, we're the broken family
, we're something is wrong withlike all of us, and I think that
was what felt much worse thanjust like you gotta hide from
your mom.
Sometimes that's just what wedo.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:16):
So interesting Cause I recently was
talking to my therapist aboutwhat would it have been like if
she called CPS, knowing thethings that I went through, and
we kind of thought about likewhether that would be helpful or
not to kind of to learn.
I mean, we see this withpatients sometimes too, where
they're describing family eventsor their childhood and you're

(13:41):
like, oh my God, that kid wastraumatized and they're just
like, yeah, this is what dad waslike, blah, blah, blah.
What do you?
What do you think it did to youto learn about that?
That something was abnormalback then.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (13:58):
I think like there was no part of me that
wanted to be taken like thatLike Ooh, we have to call CPS
and you probably won't be withyour family was enough to just
be like shut the heck up anddon't talk to anyone about this.
It wasn't like my wish Someonewould save me.
It was like there was enoughgood or at least like

(14:22):
familiarity.
Truly, I could do whatever Iwanted.
I could stay up until 3am LikeI could order whatever food from
the menus and have it deliveredand have like a credit card.
And so like yes, looking backon it, oh my God, like wow, that
is so.

(14:42):
That is not something I wouldever want someone to experience.
And like in living it, itwasn't bad.
But I do think the like peopletrying to help me it tended to
lead to just more like secrecyand more like I couldn't seek
out support because I didn'tknow like which friends would

(15:03):
tell on me I had my like core,like ride or die people, but
outside of that it was just likenope, you can't come to my
house.
We can't ever talk about familyoutside of like yeah, my mom's
a little out there, but it was.
I think like it really drilledin.

(15:23):
Something is wrong and like Ithink I also got, like I grew up
in a very wealthy, very waspycommunity and so there's very
much the like.
Don't associate with that girlbecause she's not from the wrong
side of the tracks, even though, like we had money, like we

(15:46):
were, I was a pretty freakingnormal kid, but there was also
this like stuff happens there,don't go near her.
She might introduce you to thepot, which is I'm not a freaking
good kid.

Jacqueline Trumbull (16:02):
That's fucking sad.
So you have to protect yourselffrom your mom and also the
people who are trying to protectyou from your mom yeah, and
like I don't know if it wouldhave been better, but in my mind
it was just like, absolutelynot.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (16:18):
Like I know how to handle this.
I've been handling this since Iwas very young.
There's no way I'm going toleave this world and all my
friends and like go to aquestion mark.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:31):
Do you remember when they use I mean
you mentioned like things gotdark or things got harder, or
then she started to becomepsychotic.
Do you remember any moments inyour life when things turn in
terms of her mental health?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (16:53):
Again, my temporal memory is quite poor.
I know she started havingseizures, like grand mal
seizures, when I was in fifthgrade and I think that's around
the same time.
What I didn't know was she wason a lot of drugs and also in
the beginning her psychosis wasdelusional, not like
hallucinatory, and so it wouldbe like your dad is cheating

(17:17):
with this many people.
He's so bad.
He like yells at me and therewas like enough that I was like
oh yeah, and so I just hated mydad for a while.
It wasn't like years later thatI was like oh I'm some of that

(17:38):
was true, like I.
They fought, and I have seenthat, but also a lot of it is
like so, in line with thedelusions that persisted that I
had to be like well, how, Ireally don't know my dad.
I have just been like get awayfrom me for a long time and I
don't know if that is justifiedor not, but I do think I was

(18:10):
kind of her anchor through highschool, which sounds crazy pants
because like she's super unwellthen.
But really when I left, the likefrequency and intensity of the
hallucinations really increased.
When she is like with you, shehas enough reality testing to be
like, oh, you're not activelytrying to kill me most of the
time, but like, the further youget.

(18:30):
Like I had to like send herpictures of myself with the
newspaper with today's date.
To be like, look, I'm in NorthCarolina, here's my house, and
like man, I did that for yearsand years and years.
Or just be like I know you'reoutside and I hear you and your
friends and I'd have to be like,look like, facetime me.
And she didn't trust technology.

(18:51):
So it'd be like here I am withtoday's paper, which I don't
even know where I got paper, butlike, and that would like calm
her down, ground her and wewould get like another two weeks
of lucidity and then it woulddip again.
So, yeah, it really.
Without the like constantmaintenance, she falls pretty

(19:16):
quickly.

Jacqueline Trumbull (19:18):
I think about this with you too, kibbe,
but how do you manage havingsomebody who caused you a lot of
pain and who in some ways couldhave helped herself and in
other ways couldn't?
I mean, I see this with friendsand patients who are very, very

(19:40):
angry with their parents forfucking them up in certain ways,
and that's very angry withtheir parents for fucking them
up in certain ways, and that'sof course and having to at some
point recognize the limitationsthat their parents had as well
and, in order to forgive, accept, move on.
I don't know how has thatprocess been for you?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (20:00):
honestly, like I have dipped in and out of
anger ever since setting limits,anger has really died down,
like I actually think it was thelike justified fueling anchor
where it was like this is reallytaking from you in a really
significant way, where, like youalways have one step Wondering

(20:24):
if you don't answer the phone,the phone like is that going to
be the time they're going to beyour fault, um, and I think,
like in the beginning, I havenever actually had anger at her
for fucking me up, like I Iactually think, like everyone's
like oh my god, consideringwhere you came from, you're

(20:47):
great, and like I think thatright, like I actually think
that I turned out to be a reallygood person and really grateful
that I went through a bunch ofreally tough stuff, because,
like I think it makes me aballer therapist.
Like I think that nobody canunderstand anyone's particular
flavor of trauma.
But to know, just like thefringes of human experience, I

(21:12):
think like really deeplyinformed, my ability to relate
to people, to understand and tobe like really non-judgmental,
and so like I would never wishthat on myself or anyone else,
but I am really glad that I hadsome of those experiences, just
because, like it is humanexperience and I have a very

(21:34):
rich tapestry of humanexperience.
Now the things I felt mad aboutwere, um the like active
passivity and try to give myselffor like a lot of contempt
where it was just like I wouldview her as kind of an annoying
younger sister who, like didn'tknow how to feed herself, didn't

(21:57):
know how to like read her emailon a phone and like none of it
like really compared at all tothe severe mental illness and
like neglect.
But those were the things thatwould spark like the the like
resentment anchor.
I was just like you need to growup, like I get.

(22:20):
There are things that you can'tcontrol.
There also are so many thingsyou could and like ways you
could show up and grow up.
And I think when I first had mykid, I went through a huge
phase of like fury with herbecause, like loving my kid is

(22:40):
just so easy and like I reallybelieve I would do anything Like
if she were like you need to goto this crazy person therapy.
It's just like okay, becauseyou you do what you have to, so
like take care of yourself, be afull person, even if that sucks

(23:01):
.
And so I went through a biglike oh my God, this was your
moment to be like.
I will change so I can be apart of my granddaughter's life.
And she just didn't over andover again.
And so I was just like, man, Ican't.
I can't keep saving you If youare not going to, like, take the
life raft that I keep throwingout.

(23:22):
I can't keep throwing it Like Igotta, gotta.

Jacqueline Trumbull (23:25):
I gotta mention going to a park wedding
a week after she said that shecouldn't meet you in the park
with your baby.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (23:31):
Oh, do you know, jacqueline, that's the
last text we exchanged.
Oh shit, I'm sorry, huge bummer,but yes, um, but then I think
like one of the beautiful thingsabout having space and and
actually like the most poignantthing that has happened since

(23:51):
she has died is not actuallygrieving what I have lost, not
actually like missing her as aperson, but I feel just like so
sad about her existence and likeso sad that I work with some
patients like that who are ableto like show up as parents and

(24:15):
as friends, and that, forwhatever reason, she never got
that and her world was scary andshe lashed out at everyone she
loved, and that makes me feeljust like really deeply sad.
I don't, I don't really know howmuch I have to forgive.
I think I have done that, butlike that was a really helpful,

(24:43):
just like even seeing the peoplewho loved her, like they all
knew and were, just like.
I think it is sad that I didn'tget care.
I don't have like a grandparent, I don't have those things, but
it hasn't really been astruggle to let go of anger,

(25:05):
which is nice.
I think I've been doing thatfor a very long time why do you
think she didn't get treatment?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:11):
why do you think she didn't change and get
help?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (25:15):
I think like part of her illness was deep
suspicion and paranoia and solike I think, anytime someone
gave her meds or poked at things, it was easier to just be like
you're part of the conspiracy,I'm out.
Um, yeah, I don't know.

(25:40):
I think there were times whenshe was willing to try
antipsychotics, but like shegained weight and she didn't
like that and so she stoppedtaking them, and or like she
would miss a few doses and thenall of a sudden the pills were

(26:02):
poison, and so I think like Idon't know crappy emergency
inpatient who would release herconsistently 48 hours later

(26:29):
because she would lie, she wouldcall me and be like we can't
talk by, like whisper, like wenormally do, I have to use the
phone this time and then she'dbe released that day.
Guys.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:43):
Guys, she's poorly psychotic, but kids who
have parents with mental illness, especially ones that are that
severe, sometimes have thisfantasy, whether they're aware
of it or not, that their parentwill finally see, finally

(27:05):
actually come out and connectand be there and see and be that
parent.
So much so that the fantasywill make you wish, or make you
like hope, that there is a mom,that's the mom that you want in
there, and if you could only getthem treatment or they could,
or if the kid does the rightthings, they could finally get

(27:27):
that at that mom.
Did you ever feel that?
Or did?
Were you just like?
There's no mom here?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (27:34):
I think the tough part is my grandmother was
like a really severe alcoholicfor most of my mom's life and
then, when she was pregnant withme, she was like, hey, you have
to stop drinking or you willnever meet your granddaughter.
And my grandmother did, and shetruly was like a mother to me

(27:56):
she was the best.
She never did anything to harmme.
She was so consistent and sopresent and so like that was.
My model was like parents mightnot take care of their kids,
but like you show up for yourgrandparents.
And so it wasn't even like a, athought like all of a sudden
I'll have a mom, but it was thislike, if anything is going to

(28:18):
motivate her, god, that womanhas wanted me to have
grandchildren or children sinceI was like 16.
And I was like all right, well,like this is it?
And then the disappointment oflike oh, that wasn't enough, and
I know like logically thatisn't at all what was happening,
but emotionally it was like man, that was my like final effort

(28:42):
and I I did have this image oflike she could turn it around
for my kid, and so that wasbummer so your last
communication was you offeringto introduce your child to her?

Jacqueline Trumbull (29:01):
her saying no, I can't be in public in
parks.
And then, a week later, hersending you a picture of her in
a park at a party of some sort,wedding or some sort.
I mean what an illustration ofthe disappointment of this
relationship.
And I mean, how does it feel toend on that note?

(29:22):
How are you dealing with that?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (29:25):
it's such a bummer like that.
There is no like niceredemption story, right?
Like I think, like practicallylike I look back, I listen to
all my voicemails and the lastneutral one I found was from
2021.
Um, and everything since thenhas been psychotic and so, like

(29:50):
it isn't surprising.
It just like I don't know, I'mnot like a religious person or a
spiritual person, but like Ifind myself wondering, like can
she see me now?
Because like so clouded withpsychosis and delusions, with

(30:14):
psychosis and delusions, andlike I find myself being like
what would she think of me?
Because she, she hasn't beenable to know me for so long, and
so it's less like it doesn'tfeel like a sour note, because
it just like was the note itfeels more like like I just wish
I could have known her withoutthat part of her brain.
I think she still would be likea deeply flawed human because,

(30:36):
like she was a child and shenever really had to grow up, my
dad was really wealthy and mucholder and kind of treated her as
like this little pet and so Ithink there still would have
been stuff.
But just I really think shenever could have known me and

(30:58):
yeah, that is like a tough thingto wonder about do you have any
sense of who she was if youpeeled back the psychosis?

Jacqueline Trumbull (31:07):
or was it just to?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (31:10):
yeah, like her funeral was interesting.
It's so consistent.
She she's like, a wonderful,generous nine-year-old she is.
She just like, loved fun andtrusted anyone and like would be

(31:32):
really generous with herfriends and really playful.
She loved drinking prosecco atany hour of the day and singing
along to musicals.
She never had this like driveor purpose or ambition, but like
was just a like childlike funentity outside of psychosis,

(31:58):
like I imagine we could havebeen well, I imagine she would
have been much better as afriend than a mother um and like
if I leaned into that when wewere hanging out, it was much
more lovely.
Like you would like take youshopping and go wine tasting and

(32:21):
be like in awe of basicknowledge that I would share
with her and like loved me somuch, valued me so much, just in
like really different ways thana typical mom.

Jacqueline Trumbull (32:39):
I mean, I see you.
Your eyes are getting misty andI've been thinking about you
through this interview becauseyou're in such a tough place
with your mom.
Can I ask what you're feelingas you hear this?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:49):
You're talking to me, yeah, as you hear
this, you're talking to me,yeah, yeah, I'm starting to cry
because I'm.
I'm remembering your eulogy, um,caitlin, and I was just
thinking about, like how Alexand I started crying during it.
Just, um, I think I heard yougo through such hardship with
your mom for so long and thenyou gave such a beautiful speech

(33:13):
about just like singing songsand going to musicals and seeing
rent and playing games, and Ijust like there's so much of the
beautiful parts of you thatlike has this, like joyous, like
love of life, and to picturethat that's what your mom gave

(33:33):
you and that she couldn't domore.
She couldn't like.
I mean, it was just beautifulto hear that.
It was just beautiful to hearthat you did have that from her
and that that's something thatyou'll keep from her.
Um, but it's just yeah, it wasjust also sad because you know,

(33:54):
there's all these speeches abouthow like fun she was and how
fun loving, and it really waslike people describing a child
like she's she loves gamblingand games and you know, you know
giggling and whatever and thenthere was just such sadness.
So it just yeah, I'm just justthinking about that and crying

(34:20):
on your behalf.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (34:21):
I don't know like thanks.
Yeah, I think like one of themost quintessential examples is
my grandmother died during thepandemic and I went up to deal
with her estate stuff and bookedthis hotel for me and my mom to
like sort through stuff and itwas like one of the worst times

(34:45):
of my life and I think for herit was just like a time to be
with me and so for years aftershe'd be like let's meet up at
the wayfinder in Newport and Iwas just like I'm sorry, the
like random kind of crappy hotelthat I picked to be close to a
funeral home.

(35:05):
Like that is like your happyplace now, and but it was.
It was like for her we wouldlike have sangria and chat in
between me doing a lot ofpaperwork and like I think she
just pairs that with like what anice memory, like it just it's
so reflective of who she was.

(35:27):
She would take these momentsthat were so painful to me, but
for for her, we're just likelike remember that time we did
this thing and in my mind itwould be like, yeah, we had this
horrible fight and like you didall of these crazy things and
we're threatening, and she wouldbe like she just like wouldn't

(35:48):
remember those parts.
She would select and rememberthe parts that felt good and
like, on some levels, knew thatthere was craziness, and would
laugh about it and be like ha haha.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:03):
Yep, I do have those thoughts, but she
like couldn't, she couldn't takeit seriously what is it like to
be the one who holds the badside of those memories?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (36:19):
I think, like it is, it has been interesting
in the grief process because Idon't think anyone, including
her, understood my decision tonot talk to her and like in my
mind it was this like reallyclear contingency where it was
like you have so many chances.
I do not dislike you, I do nothate you, I am not your enemy

(36:41):
like if you do this thing youhave full access to me.
But that wasn't translated andso it like kind of felt like I
was walking into this room aslike the prodigal daughter who
sucks mom off.
And so there is this likeinteresting tension where like

(37:10):
it was nice that you showed up,like an interesting thing where
I was just like guys, those somuch my life, like yes, I have
set limits in the past two years, and also like that is like a
tiny drop in our relationshipand so that heart part felt hard
, the actual holding it.

(37:33):
I think like thank God I'm aDBT therapist because, like it
very much is the dialectic where, like I can fully recognize how
deeply that sucked for me andalso for her.

Jacqueline Trumbull (37:53):
Your limits .

Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:57):
Oh sorry, kip , you were gonna.
No, I mean I just, I I'm justthinking about how sad that is.
I mean I, I, in my experience Ihad similar things where, yeah,
I think it's so hard with theparent or family member with
mental health issues becausesaying no to them or saying or
cutting them off or settinglimits for them might feel like,
wait you just, you don't acceptme, you don't accept all of me,

(38:21):
right?
Especially if they don'tunderstand that it's a mental
illness or they identify this isme, right, and then and then.
So all they see is you cuttingthem off for no reason for just
them being them, and but youhave to hold all the trauma, all
the pain, all the frustration,all the calling the doctors,

(38:41):
like all the terror, and that'sjust such a different reality
and you're just left with thatreality.
I that, that's the part thatmakes me feel like so frustrated
in my past, but you, you seemto hold it with with grace, or I
mean it's just hard.
I don't know, I'm maybe justprojecting all over you, but no,

(39:03):
I think like that resonates.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (39:05):
I think the toughest part was the moment I
realized that she didn't knowthat I cut her off.
I call her on Mother's Day, onChristmas, and like I man, I
can't even remember what shesaid, but there was a oh yeah,
it was over Christmas.
She was in the hospital andlike got ahold of me from a

(39:26):
non-blocked number and it wasjust so clear that in her mind
we've been talking that wholetime.
And it was just so clear thatin her mind we've been talking
that whole time like be atelepathy or a ceiling fan or
something.
And so it's just like, oh crap,my contingency won't work.
Like she does not know that Iam holding this thing back in
order to like get this otherthing.

(39:47):
She just has no awareness.
It will never work.
And like that was a reallyshitty moment because up until
then it was like you're being abehaviorist, you're doing the
thing you like have a reallyclear thing that is not an
unreasonable ask, you have aboundary you can maintain and
you're willing to like stick toit.
But in that moment it was justlike, oh you, you can't.

(40:10):
Like you, you don't have thecapability to understand like
what is happening enough to dothe thing I would need, and so
then it really did feel likethis like I'm putting my oxygen
mask on and like I hope you dotoo, but like I can't keep doing
it for you.

(40:30):
I gotta like put these othereight people's masks on and I
need you to do it, and I thinkshe just couldn't, and that's
really I think I mean listeningto this.

Jacqueline Trumbull (40:45):
It's clear that that was super justifiable
and, um, I don't know how youcould have continued to put her
oxygen mask on.
But are you dealing with guiltor regret about that?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (40:56):
It's so interesting.
I think, like up until I cuther off, I have had so many
conversations with likeincredible brilliant friends and
psychologists that I know andtrust, who are all like you are
not responsible for keeping heralive, and I'd be like, yeah,
okay, and also like I am likethat's a really cute thing, but

(41:17):
I can, I can keep her alive andI could, and I did for like a
really long time.
And so it was this likeinteresting emotional chicken
feeling where it was just likeokay, I know that there are
risks in this and it still iswhat I am going to do, and she

(41:41):
did.
She went totally nuts and like Idon't know if it was, like I
don't think I could have done itwithout being a mom, but it was
just so clear to me that it waslike you can't, like you cannot
have this child, this likefully grown child.
You have an actual child andshe deserves all the parts of

(42:03):
you you've been giving to yourmom for so many years.
And like if it were just me, Ithink I probably would have

(42:27):
continued that for way, way, waylonger.
I expected to feel that guiltwhen she died, because it was
like years later and she had hadall these like positive,
enriching experiences and no onesaw it coming.
It wasn't like, oh my god, shedevolved into madness and then
clearly killed herself.
It was this like I don't know,she died sleeping and so like I

(42:49):
don't know if I ever fullyembraced the.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:52):
if she kills herself, it is not your
responsibility, but itviscerally feels true that like
this would have happened even ifI were doing all the things
because she couldn't or wouldn'tget the help she needed to stop
it she couldn't or wouldn't getthe help she needed to stop it,

(43:17):
like, yeah, that's such animportant message because I've
definitely felt that a lot ofpatients and people, especially
with family members, who aredoing things that are dangerous,
like either suicidal, um, or,you know, addicted, and you know
they, the loved ones think,okay, if I have to cut them off
because they're you know,they're acting out in ways that

(43:40):
are not healthy for me, but thenif I cut them off and cut off
contact, what if they die?
What if, like, what if they getso depressed because of what
happened that they killedthemselves or they overdose or
something, and that that fearlooms large, right, like that,
that fear of getting that phonecall from a hospital or

(44:01):
something is like every lovedone's nightmare.
And so it's interesting to hearyou go on the you be on the
other side and say that'ssomething that you feared for a
long time, but you recognizelike she had a choice and she
was able to get help or not.
And that's not on, that's notyour responsibility to keep your

(44:22):
mother alive that way.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (44:24):
Totally and like especially.
I feel that now that I am a mom, like I would never want my kid
to be in that position.
It like ha haunts me, the ideathat she would put her life on
hold, like no matter what I wasgoing through.
It just is like so not what Iwould want for her or for like

(44:44):
anyone.
I love to feel scared all thetime and like anything you say
could be the thing that setsthem off.
It just it keeps you fromliving and I think that was a
big thing.
That like felt burdensome for solong and like I don't know what

(45:04):
you would want.
But I would like to think thatthe part of her that like was in
that photo when she wasexhausted and doing the mom
thing.
I would hope that's what shewould want to.
It's like you go and you buildyour family and you like live
and like that is so much easiersaid than done.

(45:27):
Like I think honestly, the partof cutting her off was in many
ways harder than grieving herdeath, because that was a choice
and this is one of the.
It sucks, but like it happenedand so we cope with it.

Jacqueline Trumbull (45:42):
My emotions always turn on when I turn
humans into animals.
So I just have this image ofyou having this like aggressive
pet dog and knowing that youhave to lock it out and let it
fend for itself in the wild andjust you have no choice.
But you also don't believe thatit can do it and there's just
no other, and it's just likewhat a fucking horrific choice
to have to make, to have to cuther off, and that's how you buy

(46:07):
your peace of mind and freedom.
Is there relief in this?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (46:14):
that's a really good question.
I again like I think it wouldhave been so much more
devastating and relieving when Iwas actively involved.
I think there is like adifferent form of relief than I
would have expected, where it'sjust like god she was suffering
for so long.
I have no idea what happenswhen you die, but like it has to

(46:37):
be better than what her realitywas Like every night, just
imagining people are coming toget you and like so much
suffering and so many attemptsto die and like not, I would
never recommend that to everyone.
There's always a way to getbetter.
And also like I do feel reliefthat that has ended for her, for

(47:04):
me a little bit, but like Ibuilt up a wall pretty intensely
when I cut her off and so likeit feels more sad than relieving
, I think, outside of like I amso glad that is not your reality

(47:25):
anymore.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:29):
What does grieving look like for you now?
And I mean I mean thatemotionally, um, but I also mean
, like, what kind of changeslike losing a parent we're
losing someone important to youproduces a lot of changes or
shifts things in ways that youdon't expect.
Like, what does grieving looklike to you now?

(47:50):
Or what?
What do you imagine it to belike in the next couple months,
years?

Dr. Caitlin Fang (47:55):
oh my gosh, it's been so fascinating.
Guys like this is why I thoughtabout reaching out to you in
the first place.
It's because it looks sodifferent.
Like I keep waiting for this,like wow, it's going to hit.
Like there is some idea ofgrief where it just like is a
wave that knocks you over andyou're underwater, and like I

(48:19):
just keep waiting for thatmoment where, like I can't
function and in fact, being likecome on, like I am surrounded
by everyone I love, like let'sdo this, like bring the feelings
before I have to go back towork and be a therapist and take
care of everyone else'sfeelings, and it just like it
didn't happen.

(48:39):
I think I have been feeling somany things.
The one moment of sadness waslike of like intense sadness,
was wondering whether she knewshe loved me, and like that
question really haunted me forlike an hour.

(49:00):
Like it doesn't paralyze me,but I think that was the purest
sadness.
And like sobbing that I felt,like sobbing that I felt.
And outside of that, it hasbeen like a interesting mix of
like managing people, like allof the other people who are

(49:22):
really distraught, and trying tobe like the appropriate level
of distraught, but not not likemethod act and be like like
trying to be genuine to what Iwas feeling, which was like
shock.
I saw her body and that reallyhaunted me, like I just like the

(49:44):
image of she was so many things, but like always very full of
life, like many of my memoriesare tinged with contempt, but
like they're always her likeprancing drunk around a field
and then like I suppose, withher being dead, was really stark

(50:05):
and really really sad, and Ithink like it brought up a lot
of grief from my grandmother,which I didn't really anticipate
.
Instead of like grieving her,it was like bringing sadness to
a mother figure.
Um, and I think just like itdoesn't look the same as the

(50:29):
thing, like I counsel peoplethrough grief all the time and
I'm like you gotta feel it, man,you gotta like work through it,
and so I'm like okay, feel it,like let's go, and it just it's
so different than I expect theirmoment, like the deepest
sadness is really for her andlike how hard her life was, just

(50:52):
like zooming out and being ableto see all of the things
stacked against her and how likeI just have so much compassion
and like deep sadness for howbroken her brain was and that
feels like really palpable andreally real.
And that feels like reallypalpable and really real.

(51:15):
I do have like sadness over thenarrative where there isn't that
redemption arc where one dayshe comes around, or even like
we have this moment where shehas clarity and can see and be
like and like I see you, Iforgive you, like all of those
things will never happen.
But the like actual thing youassociate with loss of those
things will never happen.
But the like actual thing youassociate with loss of like I'll

(51:39):
never see that person again orI'll miss their voice, like that
that happened two years ago andso it just feels so different
than I would have anticipated.
There's guilt in different wayswhere I'm like I have to deal
with all your money and likebills and estate and like
thinking about that makes mefeel really guilty.

(52:00):
Or it's like you should be sadabout the person and instead
you're like an estate lawyer andlike I have to get a fricking
tax identification number for abank account but doesn't really
exist but now does like all ofthat and so I have some like ew.
That's a gross thing to bethinking about right now and yet
like that is reality.
So that feels tough, but mostlyjust like continuing to expect

(52:25):
this big thing and people beinglike, well, it could hit at any
time and I'm like okay, in someways that would feel so
comforting and so human to likebe hit and paralyzed and like
coming to terms with that.
It's just not, at least to thispoint, the way my grief is

(52:45):
going.
And then the like, yeah, sorry,go, I was just going to ask how
you're interpreting that.

Jacqueline Trumbull (52:52):
Like you say, it would be nice to have
that hit and it seems like itmeans something to you that it
hasn't.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (52:59):
Yeah, I mean I've been thinking about my mom
dying for a long time and likehad always had the assumption it
would like wreck me on so manylayers and had such an awareness
of all the intricacies, and soit kind of feels like sounds
fucked up, but like a littleanticlimactic, where it's just

(53:21):
like this is the doomy thingyou've been trying to stop for
your whole life and there's justlike the absence of grief, or
at least the absence of grief inthe like way we picture it in
movies or the way that it hitswhen, like, your most beloved
thing dies.

(53:43):
And so it's just been like odd,it has felt weird.
I I get why it isn't like itmakes sense to me that my
experience would be reallydifferent and that I've been
grieving for a long time.
And people say that a lot and Iget that like that is what I
would say to someone who lostsomeone with Alzheimer's.

(54:05):
But I think that the tough partis like the mental wall I've
had to build up was not based ongrief.
It was based on, like,self-preservation, and so it
feels like like I can't tell howmuch it is like you built up a
wall so well that you're notletting the feelings in, or like

(54:25):
just one of those normal.
Yeah, they're not there becausethis has been expected for so
long, and so I think there'slike a shame element associated.

Jacqueline Trumbull (54:36):
Yeah when I heard that she died my first
thought wasn't that you guyswould be sad.
It was like, oh fuck, I wonderif they're going to feel shame
or guilt.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (54:59):
Yeah, yes, I do Not like intensely, but there
is this like this, like uh-oh,is something wrong with me where
, like, yeah, I think it wouldbe so welcome to grieve in a
traditional way and I, I justlike don't have those memories

(55:21):
that like one would miss, likeI've been like searching for a
pure memory.
It's just like this is when youwere the person I wish you could
be or wanted you to be, but forso long, for as long as I can
remember, even the good thingsare tinged with like, but that's
not an okay thing for a mom tobe doing.

(55:44):
Like, yeah, you gave me a bunchof tequila shots on my 18th
birthday, like that was fun.
And also like, oh, like thatthat probably wasn't the thing.
Or like when we would hang out,she would just tell me like
gory details of her sex life andlike she was sweet and and like

(56:06):
engaged and loved me so much.
And also it was just like, oh,I'm not like your college
roommate.
You stop please.
No, I don't want to hear any ofthis.
And so it's really hard to finda thing to grieve in the
traditional sense outside oflike, oh, that's a bummer that

(56:27):
you didn't know how to do that,and that's a bummer for me that
I didn't have that yeah, I Ialso think that that's not
uncommon with any loss.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:40):
I I feel like there's such a movie trope
around the big sadness and biggrief.
But people who have lost avariety of different family
members or loved ones will saythat you know, it doesn't happen
that way, like they'll havelike moments of sadness but also
a lot of other stuff, likefrustration or panic at the

(57:03):
logistics of it or sadness atyou know, when they heard that
their parent is sick or passing,but then afterwards felt like
more just tired or you know.
So I think grief is just a waymore complex than we expect and
especially in your case, expectand especially in your case.

(57:28):
But I do.
I do remember the way I I'veonly met your mom a couple times
, but I do remember at yourwedding she was dancing around
and I said like oh, isn't thisgreat?
Or I just like said hello to her, her and she just like had the
biggest smile.
She was like she's so beautiful, she looks so beautiful.
I'm so happy.

(57:49):
And I think that was the lasttime I saw her and it's.
It's a nice way to remember herat least.
You know.
I know there's a lot ofdarkness around around that, but
she was just purely happy to bethere with you, yep I did want
to ask about the logistics part.

Jacqueline Trumbull (58:09):
It's interesting, you know, I had um,
a patient who when um, when herfather died, she had to then
deal with like the house andfiguring out what to do with the
house, and actually a lot ofthe kind of trauma surrounding

(58:30):
the death was about makingdecisions about the house.
And I just I think when beforea parent dies, you don't realize
that logistics hit immediatelyand that you have to immediately
pivot from grief to dealingwith things that are not

(58:52):
interesting to deal with and arevery difficult to deal with
yeah, that is for sure.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (58:58):
The most distressing part is like
immediately when she died,before I even went to the
funeral, people were like youneed an estate lawyer, here's
the name, Go contact them.
I was just like I don't like somuch of me doesn't give a crap.
And also like, yeah, like shehas so many psych bills, she has

(59:18):
so many things, like she wouldopen a bunch of lock boxes or
security deposit boxes acrossthe like New England to just
like squirrel things.
And I was just like, oh no,like I think she has this like
five thousand dollar a monthsecurity system.

(59:38):
That I'm pretty sure is a scam.
That I was just like, oh my God, I have to cancel that.
But like you can't, becauseuntil you're appointed executor
or now called personalrepresentative, you don't have
the power to do that.
And so there's this whole giantprocess where the lawyer talked
to me for like an hour and wasjust like yeah, and so like,
don't worry, then they'll put ina claim.
And if they don't put in aclaim, you don't have to pay

(01:00:00):
them.
And they're all going to bereally mad and send you a bunch
of letters.
But like, don't pay them, butthen they're going to sue you
and then you do have to pay them, so you can't actually touch
anything in the estate exceptthese other.
And I was just like what?
And he's like, yeah, and thereare estate taxes which, like I
don't know if they'll berelevant for you.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:15):
I would just burst into tears.
I would feel so.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:00:22):
It's crazy pants and like obligating, like
she was living with a partnershe wasn't married to, who was
like don't worry, I'll take careof you, you can have my car.
And so he's like driving hercar but it's not on the title
and so technically that belongsto me.
But it feels super weird to belike, hey, dude, I know you love

(01:00:45):
your life.
Like give me the car and justand like I'm just managing.
Like he had all of herimportant documents and all the
things that I like legally haveto report and manage, and he was
just like well, I know like youdidn't know her, but I'm sad
right now and so like I reallycan't handle that and like
trying to balance likecompassion, where it's like, oh
my god, like of course, you justlike lost the person you were

(01:01:08):
living with, you like gave herCPR for like three hours while
waiting for paramedics to arrive, like you were deeply
traumatized and also like I amlegally responsible and I live
in a different state and so ifyou don't give these to me now,
I have to fly up in two weeks toget paperwork.
That is just like sitting onyour desk, like please give them
to me.
And yeah, it just like all feltlike so skeezy.

(01:01:31):
I felt like I was like tryingto get things when in reality it
was just like I have no idea ifyou have any money, like I have
no idea if we owe hundreds ofthousands of dollars, like I
don't know.
Know, but I need to because,like I am the only person
legally tied to her and so likeI have to cancel her cell phone,
like I have to do things.

(01:01:51):
And it has just been likefeeling like this villain coming
in and trying to like take allher upsets while everybody else
is so sad, like I don't want todo this, like this is not my
fault, this is the law.
And I mean like well, like I,she would have given all of her
stuff away.
They're just trying to swindle.

(01:02:12):
She never trusted lawyers andit's like right.
And also the law is like a likeI don't know, I don't want to
go to like probate jail becauseI've bricked something up,
because you don't want to dealwith those Right.
So like the logistics has beenand just knowing like that is
coming, and as soon as I do havethis power, I do have to track

(01:02:36):
down like all the things she wasassociated with somehow I don't
know how, and then send deathcertificates and cancel them all
and it's just, it really feelslike a full-time job.
And there are so many thingswhere I'm like wait, lawyer, are
you going to do that?
Or like are you just saying allthe things that I have to do?
And like I have no idea.

(01:02:57):
And so it's this whole newworld where, like thank God, I
am not like bowled over by grief, like I can't imagine like a
pure grieving situation andhaving to do this.
It would be horrific.
My brain is like really good ata task and so like I actually
think I'm pretty well suited tothis, where it's just like do

(01:03:19):
the thing, check the box, focuson a thing, but it's a lot.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:03:25):
I'm so glad I have siblings because I
honestly think my mother's deathis gonna like shred the fabric
of my universe and I cannotimagine having to pivot into
this yep, and I'm not good at atask, so it's really
unbelievable that this is justhow it goes, but I feel like not
to be dark but, like guys, makea will.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:03:47):
It would have been so much easier if there
were a will that outlined whathappened yeah or like a master
document with all of yourinformation.
Do you have insurance?
Here's the contact.
Like again, dark, butespecially if you have kids,
please do it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:02):
Organize.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:04:05):
Organize Filing cabinet.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:04:16):
Yes, well, kibbe, can I just ask you
because we're talking, I'mimagining our listeners, and the
listeners who this is reallyrelevant to are the listeners
with parents who are extremelycomplicated.
But right now in this room,there's a listener with the
parent who's extremelycomplicated, who is not dead,
but you've been trying to setlimits and boundaries with, I
mean, like, what comes up foryou when you hear about this.

(01:04:39):
It's a good question.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:41):
I mean it's a weird.
This is what I'm talking aboutin therapy.
It's a good question.
I mean it's a weird.
This is what I'm talking aboutin therapy.
It's a weird thing for bestfriend to suffer this loss and
then also to distance myselffrom a similar kind of situation
and kind of cut off contact, um, and there is that fear of like

(01:05:03):
and kind of cut off contact, um, and there is that fear of like
, what if she's?
What if she's dead?
Like what if I get that call?
I will.
She's been sober for so manyyears but I still fear of that
call.
But I do understand whatcaitlin's saying and it's like
there's something that shiftswhen you have a kid.
There's one, there's all thesethings like Caitlin was talking
about, where there's just youjust feel like all the craziness

(01:05:28):
of that kind of relationship isnormal and that you can handle
it like we grew up in that.
We grew up in that background,so like I can take that heat,
but then the idea of my sontaking that or my husband, I
like that was intolerable to me.
So like the, the separatingfelt a little bit more like no,

(01:05:50):
I can't, I can't be responsible.
I can't be responsible for this.
I can't be tied to this anymore.
I got I have to protect myfamily.
So that shifts it and I hopenothing bad happens or I hope
for the best, but it's yeah, Ithink I think that protect the
mommy, bear, protective, umthing kicks in and like, for the

(01:06:14):
record, I I don't regret that.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:06:17):
Like I think the worst case happened and I
just I really don't believe.
I think it was this nicenarrative that like I was
keeping her alive and also weknow that's not anyone's job.
We can give all the resourceswe can encourage them, we can be

(01:06:38):
their cheerleader, but likepeople have to choose to live,
we cannot be the one likedragging them through life
forever.
That's also not living, notjust for us but for them.
Like that is keeping them aliveand at some point, like man,
you got to pick a life worthliving.

(01:06:58):
You got to like, you got tochoose.
I want to.
I I want to live, I want tohave a full life and it can't be
my kid is keeping me alive.
Like I, or friend or whoever itis like I really believe that is
my nightmare is like mydaughter feels responsible for

(01:07:23):
my happiness, like it is.
That is one of the big shiftsgive you're asking about action
items and like I have to buildup my own life.
It isn't enough to like love herso deeply and it really it is
enough for me to just like Ilove being with my daughter with
like this ferocity where all Iwant to do is like pour

(01:07:45):
everything into her and thenlike watch some trashy TV and go
to bed, but it's like no, no,you can't, because at some point
she will be grown, and like ifshe was your whole world that is
, that is a burden to her, andit is important for people to
like take responsibility fortheir own mental health outside
of relationships and be a fullperson and and so like.

(01:08:09):
Yeah, it is a really toughthing and it feels cruel and
mean and also like it isn't outof spite or anger.
It is like I need you to swim.
I like I so hope you and I willdo literally anything to like
throw you the things you need tolearn how to swim, but if

(01:08:30):
you're just going to stay theretreading water, like I got to go
swim, Well, I think that's thenote to end on.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:08:40):
I mean, I hope our listeners heard in this
account that it is okay to notfeel the way you're supposed to
feel, quote unquote supposed tofeel that it is okay to set and
keep the boundary, that it'snecessary to live your own life
and expect that of others and tonot be the savior.

(01:09:03):
Um, yeah, I'm sorry you've beengoing through this.
Thanks, friend, and thanks forcoming.

Dr. Caitlin Fang (01:09:14):
I really do make good friends and have a lot
of space for whatever I'mfeeling and not try to make it
go away or make it okay, andthat is like a really huge gift
people can give people they'relike.
You don't have to make it goaway or make it okay, and that
is like a really huge giftpeople can give people they're
like.
You don't have to make them notsad or mad or indifferent and
it's so lovely to see how manypeople I have who just like, are

(01:09:36):
like yep, whatever you'refeeling, I am here, for we love
you.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:09:46):
We love you , little helpers, and we'll see
you in a couple of weeks.
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(01:10:14):
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(01:10:35):
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