February 12, 2025 • 59 mins
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Can a new marriage really shake the foundation of a once harmonious family? Maybe if the newcomer is, ahem, emotionally challenging. In today's episode, we respond to a listener who asked for tips on dealing with the toxic behavior of a new family member. "Emma," a Little Helper, sent us a message describing her frustration with her uncle's new marriage following the passing of their beloved aunt. Her extended family is large and close, but this new bride "Mary" interrupts the dynamic with narcissistic, controlling, critical, and jealous behavior. We explore the delicate balance of blending families after the loss of a central family figure, shedding light on how personalities and past dynamics play crucial roles in this transition.
As much as we wonder if Mary exhibits Cluster B disordered behavior, we also examine the potential struggles she faces as she steps into the challenging role of matriarch later in life. The family's expectations weigh heavily on her, and we explore how her critical and controlling traits have contributed to the tension. We also question the uncle's role, too, as his perceived lack of assertiveness adds fuel to the fire. Through personal reflections and poignant examples, we highlight the intricate dance of balancing new relationships while respecting longstanding family ties.
Finally, we touch on broader themes, including the impact of cluster B traits on family dynamics and the emotional complexity of marrying into a close-knit family. We explore how empathy, understanding, and effective communication can help navigate these turbulent waters. From the gatekeeping behaviors that hinder personal connections to strategies for managing challenging interactions, how do we maintain family harmony amid change and exploring the evolving nature of family dynamics?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends,
the podcast for people withloved ones struggling with
mental health.
What up little helpers?
Today we're doing something new, which is that a fan submitted
a scenario of what's going on ininto your family and reshuffles
the dynamic.
So, Kibbe, can you tell us whatexactly is going on?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I will, let's call her Emma.
So our fan, Emma, wrote in withthis story about what happens
when someone marries into afamily and we talk a lot on this
podcast about people withnarcissism or BPD or other kinds
of interpersonal difficultiesalready in a family and you know
(00:58):
what does that look like, whatdoes that family dynamic look
like.
But then what happens ifsomeone?
Someone comes, enters in to anexisting family dynamic and then
causes destruction?
So, um, it's like a lot ofthese themes of splitting
families and estrangement andwhat do you do when someone's
being a gatekeeper to the restof the family.
(01:19):
So emma talked about how herfamily, her extended family, has
this beautiful connection wherethey all are in touch with each
other.
They all visit each other, likecousins and uncles and
grandparents and their kids,Many generations.
They go on family tripstogether.
They're super close.
It honestly sounded like adream family when she described
(01:39):
it.
So the uncle was the patriarchof the family and the central
figure whose wife, their aunt.
They've been together sincethey were in high school and she
recently passed away fromcancer and that was really,
really hard for the familybecause since they were the rock
(02:00):
, they were the center.
All the family came to them.
It reminds me of my family too,where it's like there's what is
that called that keystone, thiskeystone in an arch that holds
together a family.
What happens when they pass?
What happens when you lose thatkey member of the family?
That's like the gravitationalpull for the rest of the family.
(02:21):
And then not only that, notonly what happens when you lose
that keystone, but then inrecent years the uncle remarried
.
We'll call her Mary because thatwas just easier.
And so Mary just married intothe family and she has I mean,
(02:46):
we can't diagnose her, but shehas a lot of difficult traits.
She is very critical of therest of the family.
She makes little digs andcomments, especially about
people's like job or education,their body and their weight,
Like she's apparently very proudof her body.
Even though she's a little bitolder, she's, you know, very
proud, very proud of her body.
Um, even though she's a littlebit older, she's, you know, very
(03:07):
proud of showing off her body.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Real quick how?
What are the ages?
I mean not exact, but are we 60?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think around 60, I think she mentioned 60.
Okay, yeah, so six, 60s and orseventies, Um, so she makes
comments about the, the family'sappearance and their bodies and
just like one of those kind oflike ha ha, just joking, but
kind of like really meancomments.
(03:37):
She seems to react with, youknow, she seems to be angry or
react with avoidance wheneverthe previous aunt, the one who
passed away, is mentioned.
So the way that looks isthey'll be talking about her
(04:08):
like a story or bring her up andthen she will leave and she'll
you know, huff and make herdispleasure known, known and
walk away.
So everyone has to be carefulabout what to say around her and
she has taken all of the aunt'sstuff and, you know, replaced
it with her own craft room, um,and it just has very, apparently
, very subtle but controllingbehavior.
So, for example, another thingthat she does is the uncle is
(04:30):
very close with you knowdifferent cousins and members of
the family.
A lot of people will come visithim and hang out with him and
she has actually made that stop.
She's like it's not appropriatethat you have these family
members coming over all the time, you know, and basically block
people from hanging out with him.
She's also seems to change theway he sees himself Like,
(04:56):
apparently in recent years ashe's with her.
He says that he's like tooaccommodating and a little bit
too much of a pushover.
It's just me reading, butbetween the lines it seems like
she's criticizing his closenesswith the family, right, Like the
way he gives to them, the wayhe responds to their needs.
(05:17):
She is a little bit critical ofthat.
So he's kind of pulled away, or, you know, mentioned these
things that the family is likewhat.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So she's calling him a pushover.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, the, the new wife, mary, is calling the uncle
pushover and saying you're too,you're too much of a pushover,
right, this is not appropriate.
And and he's like I guess I am,and so he's like reflecting on
himself in ways that the familydoesn't see and understand and
doesn't see him as.
And then what she says is whatEmma said is I guess the most
(05:48):
painful part is the networkdistribution of pain throughout
my family.
They grew up close and thenthis one figure has made the
whole dynamic tense.
They completely feel like thewhole dynamic has changed.
They can't feel relaxed aroundher uncle's home.
(06:08):
She changed away, likephysically, the way it looks and
what they can talk about andhow they relate to each other.
Um, she has a family of her ownwhere the relationships are
very strained too.
So I think there's a lot there.
I think there's a lot there.
I think there's a lot of, yeah,my mind buzzing with, with
thoughts yeah, yeah, go wellyour thoughts.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I mean, I think I think obviously this is going to
turn into a conversation aboutyou know what, how can they
navigate around this meteorthat's hit the family and you
know how can they maybe setboundaries or how can they
figure out how to talk to youknow the uncle, and a lot of the
(06:53):
behavior that Mary is showingis concerning and not great.
I also don't I don't think wecan have a full conversation
about this without acknowledgingMary's possible perspective,
because I actually kept noticingmyself being like, oh, that
sucks for Mary.
Mary's in a really difficultposition here too, and I think I
(07:17):
mean my first reaction is, if Iwere Emma, I would hate this
situation.
So like I fully understand whyshe's upset and why she reached
out, because I like keepimagining my mom dying and then
my dad remarrying and thisscenario and like how crushing
that would be.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
She's got someone you don't get along with.
I think that's one thing, justto have someone replaced, but
someone who's just like, wantsto change the fabric of the
whole Trumbull family.
You know that would be.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, in my, in my family, we are not close with
extended family with we don'thave actually much extended
family so it's.
But you know, we have like arelatively large family and it's
kind of tribal and it's got itstraditions and we're there's a
lot of like pride there.
So I hear a lot of grief inthis story because I mean, yeah,
(08:08):
a keystone of the family hasdisappeared and so things are
rearranging themselves andthere's a lot to grieve there.
It's not just grieving a person, but it is grieving that you
know the closeness of thisfamily and the how do I put this
like cohesion of the family.
But I do just want to noticewhat Mary has walked into,
(08:31):
because there are some thingshere that I think would be just
really difficult to be her and Ican kind of understand her
decision-making around somethings.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
In what way, Like what sparks that sympathy?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
The first thing that strikes me is the house being
changed.
So okay, so my mom?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
hits on a personal thing for you, huh.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well, yeah, Jason, I are at war over the decorating,
but, but like my mom has, you'veseen our house, right?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I haven't been there personally.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I've seen I know's crazy okay, my mom has a very
particular decorating style.
It's extremely lush.
There's plants, paintings, artlike instruments, just
everything around.
You know, it's like it's really, really distinctive, and if she
died and my dad remarried and awoman moved in, it would be
(09:22):
gutting to watch all of that goaway.
At the same time, it would alsobe pretty unusual if it didn't,
because some, because a newwoman is coming in and
surrounded by stuff that's nother taste and isn't hers and is
a reminder of a ghost, rightLike.
(09:44):
So it doesn't strike me asparticularly strange that this
woman would come in and want toredecorate, and I think the only
thing that makes us pausearound that is the fact that
she's later in life.
Like I'm going to be a secondwife.
Jason already redecorated me,whatever.
But if, if heidi's stuff waseverywhere, you I'd want, I'd
want a few tokens to keep italive for Kai and Jason, but
(10:06):
like, ultimately I'm not gonnakeep.
You know, I'm not gonna keep itdecorated in the style of
somebody who isn't there anymore, if for no other reason than
because I have the right to bein a home that I enjoy, right
like, I want to decorate myself.
Decorating is important, so Tome this sounds more like grief
(10:26):
at change.
The other thing is clearly likethere's some like Mary's own
behavior is, um, influencingcertain things, like the fact
that she's not close with herown family.
That's got something to do withMary, right?
But Mary's in an interestingpredicament, which is that she's
(10:47):
coming in to replace thematriarch of this big family
system and she's coming in alone, like I don't know where her
family is.
But it's like she's juststepped into this role at the
head of this family and it'sunclear how much autonomy she's
supposed to have within it.
That isn't just going todisrupt everybody else, right?
(11:10):
So she's changed the decoratingof the house and that's like
hurt a lot of people understand,of course, right.
But she's also maybe noticinglike this thing about not
allowing relatives to visit ispreposterous.
At the same time, I wonder whatshe's thinking.
Is it that I'm trying to havethis union with a person and all
of the rules have already beenset before I even got here, you
(11:33):
know?
So like, okay, it's set that hehas lunch with his son all of
these days.
What happens to lunch with me?
It's set that.
You know there's all thesefamily gatherings and reunions,
like that's a lot of.
I'm married now, that's a lot oftime that I'm spent with people
who don't like me first of alland resent my existence.
(11:53):
That's maybe because of my ownbehavior, um, but it's actually
a quite difficult position.
I don't know what it's like tobe in your sixties or 70s and
start over in a new life,because I'm coming in to and in
my 30s and you know we have tokeep things sort of safe and
recognizable for Kai, but he'smoving and then ultimately, like
(12:15):
Jason and I, get to start ourown lives together and we get to
be the directors of it.
But she's coming into like afinished project and has to find
her role and I just can imaginethat that would be a difficult
thing to navigate.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.
You're right.
I'm thinking about yoursituation and then my stepmom's
situation, where you're comingin and there's a, there's a big
shadow, like there's a big shoesyou have to fill, and you're
like do I even need to fill thisor can I just buy my own shoes?
Right, it's like you, everyeverything that's already
(12:54):
established there, like Jason'srelationship with his son or my
you know, my relationship withmy dad when I was young is takes
that space, takes that priority.
And then, when you're startinga new relationship, you want to
create a new thing together.
You want to create a new home,which is easier when you're
young and you're just like verymalleable, but it's harder when
there's an already establishedhome that you're literally
trying to come in and co-create.
(13:16):
So it's like either you have toslip in and be unnoticed or
there has to be like a wildchange, otherwise you're just.
You're just going to be likecompared and like trying to
replace someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Right, and I don't, I genuinely don't know what that
is like in your seventies.
If you, if you have a secondmarriage, you know, late in life
, do you understand that you'renot going to flip the table over
and start from new, like,because there is some
responsibility here to maintainthe cohesiveness of the family.
But how much responsibility,and I can also understand how
(13:52):
she's not super excited to dothat.
There's not a lot offriendliness here and I'm not
saying that's on Emma's family.
It might be very rightlydeserved, but it's tough.
It's tough when you know peopledon't like you very much.
It's tough like it's tough whenyour own personality traits
make it difficult to be liked,you know, or to like others, and
(14:16):
so I think it's.
Another thing that really stoodout to me was when Mary called
the uncle a pushover and thefamily really objected to that.
Because actually what I'msensing is that some of this
anger that's going on might bemore appropriately labeled
(14:41):
disappointment in the uncle fornot maintaining the traditions,
the house, the cohesivenesshimself, because it's actually
much more his responsibilitythan hers.
But she's getting the fullblame for it and mary, like he
is, he, he is, he's not standingup to her in certain I mean
(15:01):
maybe he is and we don't knowabout it, but in this story he's
actually not standing up to her.
And so I mean maybe he is andwe don't know about it, but in
this story he's actually notstanding up for her.
She's running rough shot allover this whole thing and then
kind of rightly points out likeyou're a bit of a push.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So it's interesting that it came from her and that
this is right, or or it's liketheir closeness and we don't
exactly know what she's tappinginto right.
It's just like, um, there mightbe this closeness in the whole
family that exists, and thenshe's asking or wants it to
(15:35):
change, or maybe he wants it tochange.
He's not actually communicatingit with the family, who knows.
But then she goes well, youknow, you're too much of a
pushover, you're kind of notsetting these boundaries that we
want or I want.
So, maybe this is not a traitthat he has globally, but like
that might be a point ofcontention in their relationship
(15:55):
.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So yeah, I mean he's in a tough position too.
He's being pulled in differentdirections.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
It just reminds me.
It's interesting.
We've talked recently thatthere's some people in our lives
, and even my clients, who haveexperienced a loss in the family
and it's always surprising topeople, including me when I lost
my dad.
You think you're going togrieve the person Like.
(16:22):
You're like, oh, I'm so sadthat that person is here.
I miss them and that'scertainly there.
But sometimes the secret painthat's a constant is then what
do you do with the whole fabricand network around them?
I mean, this is the whole thingthat we talk about over and over
again is that emotions are sohoused in the community and the
(16:44):
social like relationships aroundyou because you don't just
leave that person, you lose thatnetwork of relationships, right
, like that feeling that thefamily could go over to the
uncle and aunt's house and siton this chair and have this
coffee and have this lunch andhave these conversations, right,
(17:04):
right, that's all the structurethat she was a key part of and
kept it together.
And then when you see thatperson go away, you get the
missing that person.
But you also I see a lot offamily members trying to do what
they can to preserve andgetting really upset about.
Well, we used to go over herefor christmas and we all used to
(17:27):
go together and now we're splitup and the this brother has to
go there and that you know like,and people get really upset
that the whole family traditionsyou know have to change and so
you're grieving, you're grievinga family dynamic.
It'll never be the same withoutthat person and that's so hard
(17:47):
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I think that's.
I mean, I agree a thousandpercent.
I see this more as an episodeabout grief than about dealing
with a toxic family member,because and we'll talk, we'll,
we'll talk about the toxicitypart and navigating that.
But I think what I'm noticingin this prompt is all of the
ways that they resent her forcoming in and changing things,
(18:12):
and maybe Emma would object and,you know, add stuff.
But when I think so, my dad hascancer and when I think about
him dying, it is interesting.
I mean there's the yeah, you'reexactly what you're saying
there's the grief over him.
But then I think about holysmokes.
Like my family, I I just don'tknow how it could continue in
(18:36):
any way.
That resembles how it's been.
Like my dad is the cook.
I mean, do you think it's likesimple?
The simple thing about himcreates so much meaning.
Right, he creates because hemakes these beautiful meals.
He creates the place wherepeople come and people feast and
(18:57):
we have events.
Right, it's like if my dad, atleast my mom, would be able to
maintain a house that big byherself, like, is she going to
choose to live alone?
Is she going to choose todownsize?
And then, once she downsize,are people going to like come to
her?
Or is everything going to shiftover to one of my siblings
houses, you know, once we stophaving this like place to um?
(19:19):
I don't know why my words arenot coming to me right now, but,
um, when people come alltogether, Gathering.
Sure, whatever, we don't have aplace to gather.
That is my parents' house.
Like they're the you knowthey're the top.
We all go to them.
Are my siblings and I evengoing to hang out as much?
(19:39):
Like, are these things going tohappen as much, right?
So a lot of things are going tobecome sort of diffuse and
things going to happen as much,right?
So a lot of things are going tobecome sort of diffuse.
And then I mean there's no wayin hell either my parents would
remarry Although my grandfatherdid, when he was 90, he got
engaged when he was like 93 orsomething.
But if they did, like thatperson is going to I mean, she
is a fully formed person, or heis a fully formed person who has
(20:01):
expectations and wants anddesires, and their want and
desire isn't.
I'm going to keep this familywhole and keep it exactly how it
was.
It's probably something similarto.
I have my own life path thatI'm protecting and I'm going to
live as happily as I can andhopefully that person has the
respect and the compassion torealize what their presence does
(20:22):
to the family.
But really, this is also what aloss has done to the family and
that's where so much of thischange has happened and I really
feel for that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I saw when I was reading over Emma's messages
.
It really was striking that apainful part is that that this,
the presence of this woman, isnot allowing them to grieve in
their way.
They can't talk about her, theycan't preserve the house the
way it was, they can't do thesame kind of routines and
gatherings, um, so it's, it's ablocking of this group grieving
(20:59):
process and I do see thatthere's a lot of anxiety around
trying to.
I mean there's the grieving offeeling their emotions and and
and remembering them and justlike talking about them.
But there is also the anxietyof like, oh gosh, my dad was the
cook and we all used to go overand have meals.
(21:21):
Now, who's going to cook?
Right, that simple questionsometimes is like question,
sometimes creates this newanxiety that I'm seeing in my
patients, but me too.
When my grandparents passed away, we would go every year to Hong
Kong to go quote, quote, visitthem.
But we're visiting each other.
(21:43):
That was the time that I saw mycousins and then their kids and
you know they were almost kindof the excuse so that the whole
family could get together.
But now that they're not there,there's this anxiety around
like, okay, who's going to bethat point person?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Like do you want that responsibility?
Do you like who's going to bethat person that draws people in
or does the same, has the samerole as the person you lost?
And if it was someone newcoming in, that's anxiety.
That is just impossible.
And I think that you're right.
This is a grief process thatmight be an extra special pain
(22:20):
to it.
But if the person coming indoesn't have the emotional
skills or the social skills tonavigate that well and to allow
a really tough job of creating afamily of your own, creating a
home and a marriage of your own,but then also allowing for
(22:42):
everyone's grief about theperson you're stepping into.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, I totally agree.
Not being able to talk aboutthe grandmother is completely
inappropriate.
I just I guess I I find thatthere's a conspicuous lack of
anger towards the uncle.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Interesting.
What kind of anger do you thinkthe uncle should get this?
Speaker 1 (22:58):
is his family to protect it's his family and he.
He remarried quickly, beforepeople had grieved.
He let a woman come in andredecorate the house he's
allowing her.
To huff and leave when the auntis mentioned, like I don't and
I and I just feel like thishappens a lot with with divorce
(23:21):
or parents, where people, peopleplace the blame on the person
who's easiest to push away orlose.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
The outsider.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
The outsider yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
I didn't really think aboutthat, about how that it's.
I mean, that position is such adifficult position.
It reminds me of when myhusband was with someone um,
before me, obviously, but it waswith someone that didn't get
(23:52):
along with his family, that well, like, there was a lot of
conflict.
Um, there's a conflict in thatrelationship too, but there was
real conflict.
And the thing is that, like,with people with cluster B
traits, there is a splittingeffect, right, I think that's
people with cluster B traits.
There is a splitting effect,right.
I think that's something thatpeople talk about.
But what that looks like isthat one person can really split
(24:14):
groups of people, literallymeaning some people are good and
some people are bad, and thenthey create this conflict that
literally splits them apart.
And it happens with people whohave cluster B traits and
traditionally it would like ifyou have a treatment team, like
a psychiatrist, psychologist, adoctor, sometimes those
(24:38):
providers will be at war witheach other Because they'll be
like, well, I heard that youprescribed her this and she was
unhappy with it and I, you know,suddenly, like a treatment team
that used to be cohesive is nowat war with each other and
that's why in dialecticalbehavior therapy there's such an
emphasis on all the providersbeing on the same page and
(24:59):
having like a consultation, likethere's a lot of structure
around preventing that.
So when my husband was with theex and it was like all the
family didn't like her and thenthey had the conflict, it was
tough for him because he goesokay, well, what am I supposed
to do?
If I'm allied with her, mygirlfriend, then I'm isolating
(25:24):
from the family, I'm separatingfrom the people I love.
But if I'm in line with them, Imight be like losing someone
that I love, like I'm riskingthe relationship, right.
So they're really stuck betweena rock and a hard place.
And if a family is family andthere's more security in those
relationships, then he has toprotect the new person, right?
(25:44):
He has to protect thegirlfriend because, yeah, she's
like the outsider trying to comein and she's being quote
bullied, so he's got to protecther against the family and that
caused a lot of issues.
So I know that the uncle here,emma's uncle, is in a really
difficult position.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
He is.
Yeah, but part of protectingMary might be saying like hey,
here's how you can get alongbetter.
Yeah, you know protecting Marymight be saying like hey, here's
how you can get along better,yeah, you know, here's what's
good.
And look we, we can talk, wecan do the rest of the episode
as if she has cluster B traits,but we don't actually know that.
I mean right being critical,making critical comments could
be a side effect of like socialanxiety or autism or like all
(26:21):
sorts of things, right?
Or you just say say stuff,stuff, thinking they'd be funny
or it's not.
But you know, there is anotherbesides just the grief element.
There is another part aboutlike maybe there are cluster B
traits coming in and then how doyou navigate around those and
so we can act as if she has that.
But yeah, I just think there'sso much grief here and it's
(26:46):
really hard on every singleperson involved.
I mean the uncle.
This might be part of hisgrieving process is meeting
somebody new and not having tothink that his entire life is
over, and so you know it's hardfor him as well.
But maybe keeping inperspective all of these various
positions could be helpful fortrying to bridge this gap.
(27:07):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
When I first read the story I was biased towards Emma
and I was like that bitch, howcould she do this to this poor
family?
It's so beautiful, they allhang out together.
I want that someday.
But then I'm like, yeah,actually, you know, there is a
lot of emotions there, there's alot of pain.
Anyone stepping into that roleis going to have a hard time and
(27:30):
when you think about howdifficult it must be for her,
it's intimidating to marry intoa really close family.
I mean, goodness right,especially if you do have
cluster B traits, if you do havenarcissism.
The sympathetic view of thosekind of people is that they deal
(27:51):
with anxiety, social anxiety,and try to get connection and
love and approval is through thegrandiose or the attention
seeking behaviors, right.
That's why it's such a disorder, because they learn one way of
trying to make friends yeah andit doesn't work everywhere.
So her coming in and maybe evenlike devaluing other people, uh,
(28:16):
or trying to in different waysbe possessive over the uncle's
time and house and room, andlike maybe some people just come
in and dominate when they don'tknow how to deal with a
uncomfortable situation, so, andit's not good, but that might
be what she's feeling she mayhave a background that tells her
(28:38):
too that she has to take careof herself and take charge, or
she'll be neglected or you know,or insert here other bad
outcome, so we don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
There seems to be some significant immaturity
demonstrated here.
I mean not being able to hearanything about your predecessor
in front of the whole familywhen you're in your 60s or 70s
is like probably something youshould grow out of.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How do you feel when Jason talks about his late wife?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I feel fine, but I don't experience jealousy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
I mean I, you feel no things,you feel nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Typically no other than I mean I kind of like
talking about her because I likeknowing more about his past and
, um, she's definitely a welcometopic.
I mean it might feel strange ifthere were pictures about her,
of her everywhere.
(29:44):
I mean, there have been, therehave been times when I've
wondered if his love for mecould be complete, given that he
lost his wife.
I don't know if that's reallywhat I mean to say there, but,
um, there have certainly beentimes when I've been a little
bit concerned that that thathurt.
(30:08):
I forget who wrote this line.
It was in a book that I read,but it was that it was basically
that, um, somebody, somebodywas dating another person, or I
was in love with another person,and that person's spouse died,
and so it it was like, yes,they're available, now I get to
(30:29):
have them, or something.
And the quote was somethinglike not realizing that a dead
oh shit.
It was like not realizing thata ghost is your hardest enemy.
It was actually a reallywell-written quote, but it was
basically like if you've lostsomeone, if you've broken up
(30:54):
with somebody, presumably you'venoticed some of their flaws.
Right.
If somebody dies, you tend toidealize them and cement that
idealization forever.
And that's it was that a ghostis the hardest competitor.
Hmm, ooh.
Yeah.
That's a good quote.
Um, and that's probably truehere I, however, I think when
(31:18):
you're in your sixties orseventies you kind of have to
know that comes with theterritory.
But I don't know what her ownrelationship with her first
husband was, or she had ahusband, or you know what her
relationship history was likeLike.
Maybe she's in a period of timewhere she feels like this is it
for me, this is the one, thisis the time I finally am valued
and prioritized, and yada, yada.
(31:40):
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I do remember part of the story is that she has a
difficult relationship with herkids and family.
So I assume that she waspartnered before, or at least
you know at some point, and shewas sent away to school at a
young age.
So there definitely are someattachment issues and that's the
(32:02):
only reason why I'm a littlebit more comfortable thinking
that it's a cluster B behavior,because if it was just the way
she behaves with this family,okay, you can't actually
diagnose personality disordersif it's only showing up in one
area.
It has to be across all domainsof your life, life.
So if she has had this kind ofissues before, now that I'm
(32:26):
thinking about that, how sad isit that if she's had attachment
issues, has felt any distance orproblems with her family, and
then she's like, okay, I'm gonnamarry into a family that's has
none of the problems I had.
Not only will I kind of feelenvious and intimidated and
other, and just like I'm aroundthe thing that I never had.
(32:48):
And then how do I fit into this?
Right, it's like you're, you're, you're facing the success
where your life has failed in away.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So now I feel bad, for I mean, I think, she's
shooting herself in the foot ina multitude of ways.
Um, because I feel bad for Mary, I mean, I think she's shooting
herself in the foot in amultitude of ways, because I
feel bad for Emma too, like Ithink this would suck.
But yeah, I mean, mary's in atough spot and it sounds like
she doesn't necessarily have allthe tools to navigate it
totally effectively.
And it's, I think.
(33:23):
You know, when you marry intosomebody where they're a progeny
, you have to figure out, as thenewcomer, how to honor the
deceased and how to keep themalive in some way, even when
it's uncomfortable for you.
And that's what she seems to befailing to do.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, what would be the appropriate way?
I mean, I think I would feelit's one thing if I, if, as you
were saying, with your situation, like you're coming in and
marrying someone who, well, wedon't know if you're marrying
yet, wink, wink, you know,you're, you were deeply involved
(34:03):
with someone who has a you know, who has a past like that.
But then it's like you enter ina whole family and they're all
grieving and you're the one,you're the one who's not
grieving, you're the one who'slike, taking your place.
I would.
I mean, I probably wouldn'tleave or storm out or look upset
, but I would feel reallyawkward if this whole family is
(34:25):
like oh, do you remember whenAunt So-and-So used to do this?
Oh gosh, this house used tolook like this.
You know, like I would feellike, all right, it's very clear
that you guys missed the personI'm taking the place of, so
great.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right and probably wish that I did not exist and
that other person did.
Yeah, and it's odd, you know,like it's you're coming in at
the end of somebody's life andat the end of your own life, and
so how much?
How much do you kind of keepthings as they are and just sort
of try to enjoy each other,versus how much do you make your
(35:04):
own life together?
And it's just odd knowing that,like your first wife had 50
years with you and I'm going toget 10.
I don't know what that wouldfeel like.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, it's like watching the golden bachelorette
or the golden bachelor.
Oh my God I was.
I was not going to watch thegolden Bachelorette until you
convinced me, and then I'm soglad I did, because that is the
most heartwarming show, where itjust you know, like it really
(35:39):
was just interesting to watchthe Golden Bachelorette versus
the Bachelor or Bachelorette,because there's the young, the
youngins, there's so muchcompetition, and then there's
like talk about the future andwhat they want and whether their
wants are aligned.
And then the goldenbachelorette was a lot about
processing what they've lost,like they all bonded because
they were like we're allwidowers and we're like what is
it like to lose the person thatyou made your family with right,
(36:02):
and then is it?
Is it then going to be likeyou're now?
Your new relationship is gonnabe about keeping each other
company while you grieve for therest of your life.
I mean, what does that looklike?
Right?
Like are you just kind of, youknow, keeping each other company
while you remember?
Speaker 1 (36:23):
yeah it's sweet, but it it flies in the face of our,
our young and kind of, you know,concept of love and romance how
so are they creating something?
New?
Yeah, I think our concept oflove and romance is like we are
the one and like he loves memore than anyone, and you know
(36:50):
yeah, I mean.
Jason did a good job for me, youknow, I mean he doesn't make me
feel like second choice.
Um, you know, I I really thinkthat he is like fully excited
and in love and you know, andlike he loved Heidi too.
Um, but that's in the past andhe's excited to have a future.
But that's a tough.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I mean that's a tough it's actually so much similar
to the topics we were saying inour other episodes about like
non-monogamy right.
It's like we're kind ofbreaking down this, this uh kind
of outdated idea that we'relooking for the one right, the,
the special one, and you know,you're just kind of kind of
(37:31):
biding time until the specialperson, then you like live out
your days with that person.
It's like no, we are living waylonger than we expect and there
could be just different onesfor different phases of your
life.
Yeah.
And maybe for a family too.
Yeah, there might not be theone.
(37:51):
I mean when we say the one now,it's like who do we make our
family with?
But now there's blendedfamilies, there's multiple
families, different stages ofyour life and what makes sense
for different times of your life, like when we talk about dating
in our 20s.
We're like're like, oh, wedated the wrong man until we
found the right man.
(38:12):
It's like, no, we probablydated people who made sense for
being in our 20s, who's now hadtotally different values and
goals and characteristics thanthe version of us now.
Um so and you know, thinkingabout it, if the uncle was with
(38:32):
this, with his late wife sincehe was a kid, he never got to
date.
He never got to date his crazylike.
You know that, like weird flingthat the the ex that you
shouldn't have right.
Like maybe he's making hiswhoopsies now you know, someone
who's exciting yeah, I mean, Iremember when we were 20s and
(38:53):
dating all people with all sortsof fun cluster b traits, toxic
whatever.
That wasn't even toxic in ourday.
It was just like, you know, thebad boys that everyone wanted.
But but there is like anintensity and excitement and
feeling alive with someone whobrings drama right.
There's a little bit of likeooh, someone's coming in and
(39:14):
just controlling and telling mewhat to do and all that.
You know.
There's an intensity in thatdynamic.
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder how some of this stuffis getting communicated to Emma
too.
Like who's communicating?
Like when Mary said you can'thave lunch with your son anymore
.
Mm-hmm.
Like who told her that?
Because it seems strange ifMary did and it would also seem
a bit grapeviny if the son did.
(39:43):
So do we actually know how thatconversation went down.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No, I think that.
I think it sounds like.
It sounds like there's some ofit that Emma has seen for
herself, like some of the digswere towards her and her
siblings, but it might be passeddown also from her parents or,
you know, like the extendedfamily involved.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
But I just wonder if that conversation really went
down that way, if it was likeyou can't have lunch with him
anymore, this is inappropriate.
Or if it was something like hey, like you, having lunch with
him disrupts our yada, yada andwho knows.
I mean look, we know there'sdemonstrated immature behavior.
You just can't huff when yourpredecessor is brought up in
front of your predecessor'sfamily.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
You just can't do that, unless it was like oh,
remember when she was here, notlike Mary sitting over there.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
You know, right, there's, there might be ways
that they're bringing bringingher up, that's, we don't know
what she's gone, yeah, um, andtelling if she didn't tell him
that he can't have lunch withhis son, that's inappropriate,
that's like that's mega bad.
So I do, I'm sorry, sorry.
(41:00):
No, no, you go.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It's the dilemma that we therapists working with
interpersonal problems alwayscome across, where you're
getting one view right and, toreally understand who's quote,
toxic.
That's why we hate the wordtoxic in social media and stuff,
because you're getting one sideof the story and different
(41:24):
perspectives are valid eventhough they might not mesh.
So you're getting one side ofthe story, but I think what we
are getting from the way Emmadescribed it it's like the
biggest pain is like the rippleeffects across the family and
how it really interferes withtheir grieving process, or even
(41:45):
maybe lack of grieving process,of trying to preserve something
that you know a family dynamicthat isn't there anymore.
It can't exist.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
In the same way, yeah , I know, I I think my mind was
going to a similar place of.
First of all, I may beover-correcting and trying too
hard to see the hard to seeMary's point, because I am so
aware of this in my own therapysessions where it's like, oh,
it'd be so easy to just bashthis person, but I just don't
know.
And then I always think of myex-fiance in therapy and how
he's presented me and howconvincing I'm sure that was.
(42:12):
But yeah, I mean, I think partof this is how do you learn to
accept that your family that hasbeen stable for so long is
suddenly changing and is nevergoing to go back to normal and
new people come in and upendthings and that is really hard
and it's a really hardadjustment and it would have
(42:34):
been probably easier if therehad been a period of time where
Mary wasn't there and they gotused to the new normal and kind
of figured out what that was.
But this one, I mean, it perhapsdid rush the grieving process a
little bit and now they don'tknow how to grieve.
But the reality is, is it'schanged?
It's like I always go back tothe time when my Christmases
(42:59):
started changing, when mysiblings were all getting older
and getting partners and goingoff to their houses, or the
partners were coming here to myhouse and I was like, wow, my
family, my traditions, it's allchanging and I don't have any
control over it.
And it feels like I should havecontrol over it because I'm a
member of this family and myfamily is the thing that gives
me identity and tells me how tolive and has shaped me and and
(43:25):
when that changes, it's, it'sreally, it's really disturbing.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, I think we know that the if, like going into
tips like what Emma and herfamily should do, yeah, I mean,
it's step one.
We, you know, step one's got toalways be grieving, and that I
mean even step before.
That is accepting the new, thenew normal, accepting the
reality of what you've lost andwhat's here, right, so you go,
(43:52):
okay, the closeness that we had,all the traditions we had, the
vacations, the visits, thefurniture they're not here
anymore and just like, allowthat to be extremely painful and
then to be like, okay, well,because, if you're like I
(44:13):
noticed this in my clients ifthey're trying their best to try
to, if they're trying theirbest to try to MacGyver
something back and duct tape itto look like what it used to be,
it's, it's not going to work.
You're just going to cause painand struggle with yourself.
So stop doing that and like,just sit and accept and just be
(44:33):
like this is so sad and we, wejust was miss our aunt so much.
Um, and then say, okay, what wasit what?
What was so special about that?
Right, like, maybe we can'thave lunches every day, but like
, what, what was so importantabout that?
Was it that they had adedicated time and space to
connect.
Is it that they went onvacations together and like the
(44:57):
kids could play, like what wasit that was so special, and then
try to capture that in maybe anew way?
Yeah.
Easier said than done.
I don't know the answers to allof this, but I think it's like
that's the grieving process andtraditions of like what did we
love about that and how can thatbe possible in the
circumstances we have now?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I totally agree.
There's a lot of elements herethat we don't know about too.
I mean, I wonder if there'sconcern here for the.
I wonder if there's concernhere for the uncle of like he
seems to be with this womanwho's taking over his brain.
(45:40):
Is he okay?
I don't know if it would bemaybe a good idea to just have
some conversations with him,take him out to lunch, if you're
still allowed, uh, and just notbe like initially, like hey,
I'm concerned, but maybe likehey, how's it going with Mary?
What does she bring to you?
What do you love about her?
What you know, so like reallyunderstanding, like what is it
(46:04):
that this is doing for him?
And you know, I've just.
Then you can say like I've justnoticed a couple things and I
just wanted to hear what youthink about them, what you think
might be going on.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, I think that now we're jumping into the tips,
for how do you navigate whenthere's like a gatekeeper to
your lunch, when someone comesin and puts up a gate?
Number one we've always talkedabout this but don't polarize,
don't sit that person down andbe like we hate Mary, we all are
(46:37):
against her.
This is an intervention.
An intervention, I mean you gotto know that she sucks.
That's that's going to polarizehim.
Right, he's there, he's goingto leave, he's going to be.
No, no other position than todefend her right.
So lean the other way.
Opposite action go, you know,maybe extend, as we're doing,
(46:57):
like compassion andunderstanding for what you might
be going through and how hardthis might be.
Maybe lean into that by tryingto develop a relationship with
her in a way that maybe breaksdown her walls, like kind of get
to the softer side.
If there's any kind of cluster Btraits, you know that they're
just really insecure and they'reterrified of feeling rejected
and devalued.
So I mean you don't want toreinforce the shitty behavior,
(47:21):
but at least like gettingunderneath that and getting past
all the defenses and reallygetting to know her and then
being like hey, uncle, we, youknow, we love that, you're happy
Can, but I miss like one-on-onetime with you.
Can we hang out together andhaving like some time by himself
?
And if he brings up like I'mpush over, be like what do you
(47:43):
think right?
Like kind of gently gettingthat alone time to connect with
him by himself, but then alsojust to have a lifeline, just in
case that it's really toxic,right?
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah.
As for just surviving this, Imean, I don't know, it could be
that.
It could be that, yeah, gettingto know Mary better is the
answer here.
She might just be acting from aplace of total discomfort all
the time.
She's making comments that comeacross as critical and awkward,
and maybe that's just like a Idon't know how to behave with
(48:19):
people that I'm not jiving with.
You know, I don't know if she'strying to isolate the uncle,
because otherwise she has tospend a whole bunch of time with
people that don't like her andthat she, she, doesn't feel
comfortable around.
So I don't know.
I mean, maybe just getting toknow her better would be a key,
but she also might not makeherself available to be known,
(48:44):
and in that case it really ismore of just like well, how do
we navigate around this folder?
And I think, there you're, justwe're back to acceptance and I
don't know figuring out how tospend more time with other
family members.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I don't know that.
There's an amazing answer weknow, just with techniques of
dealing with people with clusterB, like narcissistic or BPD
traits.
That technique called grayrocking we've described before,
where, if you feel like they'rebaiting you with devaluing or
critical comments like, oh, lookat you, or just something this
little dig of, when you like, oh, look at you.
Or you know just something thatthis little dig of you know,
when you feel like they'relooking down at you and you feel
(49:25):
like you feel that yourdefensive hackles coming up,
right, you're just like, oh no,I'm better than you, are Also
bad, right, Like if you don'tget wrapped up in the power play
that's being brought up, right,there's like this strong, like
fight and competition, that kindof can come up when you feel
(49:48):
that, or justifying or defendingyourself.
But just don't engage with that,because that's where their
comfort zone is, just just grayrock, which means just not
giving much, like detachingemotionally and not giving much
back.
Right, you don't have to liketalk back or give a comeback,
just be like, if they make acomment about the way you look,
(50:09):
like, oh, all right yeah whatelse?
like changing the subject, kindof like letting it slide off you
, acting like it doesn't botheryou, even if it might.
Um, that might be in the earlystages.
Maybe in the later stages, whenyou get to know each other well
and get to know mary a littlebit better, at least, my
(50:31):
technique is to point out thosethings, but like in a joking
manner, like ouch, that hurt, oryou know, just you know just
like oh yeah.
I did see one of our one of ourpeers in grad school.
Like we were talking to someonewho was just like saying
(50:51):
outlandish things, just justbragging and saying all sorts of
crazy stuff, and we all kind ofrolled our eyes because this
person is just a weirdo and justsays weird things in public
places and settings and he justsmiled he's such a good
therapist he just smiled and hewas like wow, that was such a
weird thing to say and he wasjust so blunt and it just
(51:16):
disarmedarm that person and wewere all laughing, but it was
like a laugh with because hewasn't he, he will almost have
this tone of like curiosity,like what a weird thing to say,
and then so we were all in on it, right, and it just it's.
That's a very hard nuance to getlike a a laughing and pointing
(51:36):
out their behavior in a waythat's still like compassionate,
like a laughing and pointingout their behavior in a way
that's still like compassionateand um, but I think that comes
with time and a little bit oftrust and a little bit of
comfort with each other.
Um, hard to do, really hard todo.
Yeah, I mean, there could alsobe like a conversation right
With that person and saying, uh,you know, validate, validate,
(51:59):
validate Also that comment youmade I've really hurt my
feelings or maybe uncomfortable.
Or you know, when we're talkingabout our aunt and you walked
away like I don't know how tonavigate that, because we want
to talk about her, but we cansee that it makes you
uncomfortable, what do you thinkwe should do?
How do you feel when, whenshe's brought up right, like
having that honest?
How do you feel when?
(52:20):
when she's brought up right likehaving that honest conversation
.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Yeah, really hard to.
I know I'm caught between firsttalking to the uncle about that
, like, hey, have you noticedthat Mary kind of doesn't like
being around when we bring upHer aunt?
You know, what do you thinkabout that?
Because it's it's hurtful to usand we don't know what to do
about it.
But it could also be a goodstrategy to say, hey, mary, we
don't know what to do about it,but it could also be a good
strategy to say, hey, mary, likeI noticed that when we talk
(52:47):
about you, know our aunt, thatyou kind of leave the room.
I was wondering what that's likefor you and just going there
for going for the curiosityfirst, and then kind of bring it
back to like, oh, you know,that makes a lot of sense.
I guess what's tough for us isthat we're still grieving her
and for us she's all around andwe're so happy you're here too,
(53:07):
but she's here.
She's still here for us too,and it's really hard to not be
able to talk about her andwondering if there's any way it
could be more comfortable.
You know something like that.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah, I think we're talking about just like making
peace offerings instead of, youknow, yeah, the stonewall or the
intervention approach, or thecutting out or ostracizing,
because that just makes it worse.
Right, that just makes it.
That just goes into thedirection that they don't want,
which is more division in thefamily.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
So, yeah, I don't know.
I also don't want to leave themon a note where we just
empathized with her aunt, forwith her step aunt the whole
time and then, you know, didn'tgive her enough because it it.
I would hate, I would hate this.
Um, I think what's tough isthat she, this woman, hasn't
done anything so glaringlyunforgivable that it's time for
(53:58):
like a let's kick her out of thefamily or like isolate from her
.
Yet but clearly, if her wholefamily is feeling this way,
there's something up.
You know, like this isn't, thisisn't emma's immaturity, or
just like not being able to seewhat's going on because she's so
grief stricken.
I mean, I think there's a wholemess of things, but this is
(54:21):
really tough and clearly thewhole family has feelings about
it.
I do wonder if they're pumpingeach other up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah, that might be.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I know my family can do that, you know.
I mean we're having aconversation about, like, how to
bring Mary in and there mightbe a separate conversation of
what if that's impossible whatif that's impossible?
Speaker 2 (54:48):
what if Mary will just never get along with the
family?
Um, yeah, yeah, it's like.
What, if you like, how do youjust live with someone with
cluster b traits and not don'thave this magic healing fantasy
where you have a conversationand you all cry and hug and
suddenly you're, you're, you'regreat and understand that she
(55:16):
might be just like complicatingand maybe blocking some grieving
processes.
So like, don't let that happen,like grieve together, like talk
about it and recognize thatthings have changed.
And if the main goal and valueis family closeness, then what
does that look like now with her?
It might look like justignoring her, right, her.
(55:40):
It might look like justignoring her, right, it might
just be like smiling andlaughing and making fun of her,
but in a compassionate way,right?
I think the the one do not do ismake her the enemy because they
don't anyone cluster B traits,they don't respond well to that.
It doesn't take down thedefenses, it makes it worse.
Then the uncle's in a reallytough position, literally
(56:03):
between rock and a hard place.
Everyone has to choose sidesand it's going to polarize him
even further to defend her andso just any kind of like
pointing and, you know,ostracizingizing her, it's just
going to make it worse.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
So, yeah, do anything but that and probably try to
establish some time that you canhave with him regularly, even
just to check in on him.
I mean, if she is claus derbyand we don't know, it's going to
be tough for him eventuallyright, right, let him have his
crazy ex moment and then makesure he's a good prenup.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I don't know, yeah Well that ship has probably
sailed.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
I guess you can still revise your prenup after
marriage.
But it's interesting because Ijust think that this question
changes depending on who thefamily member is.
I mean, it changes so much.
If she's talking about her momdying and being replaced, that
might be a different episode.
If this was her brother gettingmarried, another different
(57:06):
episode.
But I like this element.
I like that it's an older kindof patriarch.
What do you do there?
I don't know, Maybe there willbe other episodes we do where
it's other family members, but Ithink that's all for now.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yeah, but thank you to Emma.
Thank you so much forsubmitting that we welcome
anyone else to do the same.
We love, we love hearingstories and we love hearing from
you.
So, please send this message,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Second, that, and please remember to give us a
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And please remember to give usa five-star rating on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify.
And again, yeah, please reachout to us with prompts, with
feedback, anything.
We would love it and we'll seeyou next time.
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(57:53):
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(58:16):
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(58:37):
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Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends,
the podcast for people withloved ones struggling with
mental health.
What up little helpers?
Today we're doing something new, which is that a fan submitted
a scenario of what's going on ininto your family and reshuffles
the dynamic.
So, Kibbe, can you tell us whatexactly is going on?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I will, let's call her Emma.
So our fan, Emma, wrote in withthis story about what happens
when someone marries into afamily and we talk a lot on this
podcast about people withnarcissism or BPD or other kinds
of interpersonal difficultiesalready in a family and you know
(00:58):
what does that look like, whatdoes that family dynamic look
like.
But then what happens ifsomeone?
Someone comes, enters in to anexisting family dynamic and then
causes destruction?
So, um, it's like a lot ofthese themes of splitting
families and estrangement andwhat do you do when someone's
being a gatekeeper to the restof the family.
(01:19):
So emma talked about how herfamily, her extended family, has
this beautiful connection wherethey all are in touch with each
other.
They all visit each other, likecousins and uncles and
grandparents and their kids,Many generations.
They go on family tripstogether.
They're super close.
It honestly sounded like adream family when she described
(01:39):
it.
So the uncle was the patriarchof the family and the central
figure whose wife, their aunt.
They've been together sincethey were in high school and she
recently passed away fromcancer and that was really,
really hard for the familybecause since they were the rock
(02:00):
, they were the center.
All the family came to them.
It reminds me of my family too,where it's like there's what is
that called that keystone, thiskeystone in an arch that holds
together a family.
What happens when they pass?
What happens when you lose thatkey member of the family?
That's like the gravitationalpull for the rest of the family.
(02:21):
And then not only that, notonly what happens when you lose
that keystone, but then inrecent years the uncle remarried
.
We'll call her Mary because thatwas just easier.
And so Mary just married intothe family and she has I mean,
(02:46):
we can't diagnose her, but shehas a lot of difficult traits.
She is very critical of therest of the family.
She makes little digs andcomments, especially about
people's like job or education,their body and their weight,
Like she's apparently very proudof her body.
Even though she's a little bitolder, she's, you know, very
proud, very proud of her body.
Um, even though she's a littlebit older, she's, you know, very
(03:07):
proud of showing off her body.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Real quick how?
What are the ages?
I mean not exact, but are we 60?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think around 60, I think she mentioned 60.
Okay, yeah, so six, 60s and orseventies, Um, so she makes
comments about the, the family'sappearance and their bodies and
just like one of those kind oflike ha ha, just joking, but
kind of like really meancomments.
(03:37):
She seems to react with, youknow, she seems to be angry or
react with avoidance wheneverthe previous aunt, the one who
passed away, is mentioned.
So the way that looks isthey'll be talking about her
(04:08):
like a story or bring her up andthen she will leave and she'll
you know, huff and make herdispleasure known, known and
walk away.
So everyone has to be carefulabout what to say around her and
she has taken all of the aunt'sstuff and, you know, replaced
it with her own craft room, um,and it just has very, apparently
, very subtle but controllingbehavior.
So, for example, another thingthat she does is the uncle is
(04:30):
very close with you knowdifferent cousins and members of
the family.
A lot of people will come visithim and hang out with him and
she has actually made that stop.
She's like it's not appropriatethat you have these family
members coming over all the time, you know, and basically block
people from hanging out with him.
She's also seems to change theway he sees himself Like,
(04:56):
apparently in recent years ashe's with her.
He says that he's like tooaccommodating and a little bit
too much of a pushover.
It's just me reading, butbetween the lines it seems like
she's criticizing his closenesswith the family, right, Like the
way he gives to them, the wayhe responds to their needs.
(05:17):
She is a little bit critical ofthat.
So he's kind of pulled away, or, you know, mentioned these
things that the family is likewhat.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So she's calling him a pushover.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, the, the new wife, mary, is calling the uncle
pushover and saying you're too,you're too much of a pushover,
right, this is not appropriate.
And and he's like I guess I am,and so he's like reflecting on
himself in ways that the familydoesn't see and understand and
doesn't see him as.
And then what she says is whatEmma said is I guess the most
(05:48):
painful part is the networkdistribution of pain throughout
my family.
They grew up close and thenthis one figure has made the
whole dynamic tense.
They completely feel like thewhole dynamic has changed.
They can't feel relaxed aroundher uncle's home.
(06:08):
She changed away, likephysically, the way it looks and
what they can talk about andhow they relate to each other.
Um, she has a family of her ownwhere the relationships are
very strained too.
So I think there's a lot there.
I think there's a lot there.
I think there's a lot of, yeah,my mind buzzing with, with
thoughts yeah, yeah, go wellyour thoughts.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I mean, I think I think obviously this is going to
turn into a conversation aboutyou know what, how can they
navigate around this meteorthat's hit the family and you
know how can they maybe setboundaries or how can they
figure out how to talk to youknow the uncle, and a lot of the
(06:53):
behavior that Mary is showingis concerning and not great.
I also don't I don't think wecan have a full conversation
about this without acknowledgingMary's possible perspective,
because I actually kept noticingmyself being like, oh, that
sucks for Mary.
Mary's in a really difficultposition here too, and I think I
(07:17):
mean my first reaction is, if Iwere Emma, I would hate this
situation.
So like I fully understand whyshe's upset and why she reached
out, because I like keepimagining my mom dying and then
my dad remarrying and thisscenario and like how crushing
that would be.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
She's got someone you don't get along with.
I think that's one thing, justto have someone replaced, but
someone who's just like, wantsto change the fabric of the
whole Trumbull family.
You know that would be.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, in my, in my family, we are not close with
extended family with we don'thave actually much extended
family so it's.
But you know, we have like arelatively large family and it's
kind of tribal and it's got itstraditions and we're there's a
lot of like pride there.
So I hear a lot of grief inthis story because I mean, yeah,
(08:08):
a keystone of the family hasdisappeared and so things are
rearranging themselves andthere's a lot to grieve there.
It's not just grieving a person, but it is grieving that you
know the closeness of thisfamily and the how do I put this
like cohesion of the family.
But I do just want to noticewhat Mary has walked into,
(08:31):
because there are some thingshere that I think would be just
really difficult to be her and Ican kind of understand her
decision-making around somethings.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
In what way, Like what sparks that sympathy?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
The first thing that strikes me is the house being
changed.
So okay, so my mom?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
hits on a personal thing for you, huh.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well, yeah, Jason, I are at war over the decorating,
but, but like my mom has, you'veseen our house, right?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I haven't been there personally.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I've seen I know's crazy okay, my mom has a very
particular decorating style.
It's extremely lush.
There's plants, paintings, artlike instruments, just
everything around.
You know, it's like it's really, really distinctive, and if she
died and my dad remarried and awoman moved in, it would be
(09:22):
gutting to watch all of that goaway.
At the same time, it would alsobe pretty unusual if it didn't,
because some, because a newwoman is coming in and
surrounded by stuff that's nother taste and isn't hers and is
a reminder of a ghost, rightLike.
(09:44):
So it doesn't strike me asparticularly strange that this
woman would come in and want toredecorate, and I think the only
thing that makes us pausearound that is the fact that
she's later in life.
Like I'm going to be a secondwife.
Jason already redecorated me,whatever.
But if, if heidi's stuff waseverywhere, you I'd want, I'd
want a few tokens to keep italive for Kai and Jason, but
(10:06):
like, ultimately I'm not gonnakeep.
You know, I'm not gonna keep itdecorated in the style of
somebody who isn't there anymore, if for no other reason than
because I have the right to bein a home that I enjoy, right
like, I want to decorate myself.
Decorating is important, so Tome this sounds more like grief
(10:26):
at change.
The other thing is clearly likethere's some like Mary's own
behavior is, um, influencingcertain things, like the fact
that she's not close with herown family.
That's got something to do withMary, right?
But Mary's in an interestingpredicament, which is that she's
(10:47):
coming in to replace thematriarch of this big family
system and she's coming in alone, like I don't know where her
family is.
But it's like she's juststepped into this role at the
head of this family and it'sunclear how much autonomy she's
supposed to have within it.
That isn't just going todisrupt everybody else, right?
(11:10):
So she's changed the decoratingof the house and that's like
hurt a lot of people understand,of course, right.
But she's also maybe noticinglike this thing about not
allowing relatives to visit ispreposterous.
At the same time, I wonder whatshe's thinking.
Is it that I'm trying to havethis union with a person and all
of the rules have already beenset before I even got here, you
(11:33):
know?
So like, okay, it's set that hehas lunch with his son all of
these days.
What happens to lunch with me?
It's set that.
You know there's all thesefamily gatherings and reunions,
like that's a lot of.
I'm married now, that's a lot oftime that I'm spent with people
who don't like me first of alland resent my existence.
(11:53):
That's maybe because of my ownbehavior, um, but it's actually
a quite difficult position.
I don't know what it's like tobe in your sixties or 70s and
start over in a new life,because I'm coming in to and in
my 30s and you know we have tokeep things sort of safe and
recognizable for Kai, but he'smoving and then ultimately, like
(12:15):
Jason and I, get to start ourown lives together and we get to
be the directors of it.
But she's coming into like afinished project and has to find
her role and I just can imaginethat that would be a difficult
thing to navigate.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.
You're right.
I'm thinking about yoursituation and then my stepmom's
situation, where you're comingin and there's a, there's a big
shadow, like there's a big shoesyou have to fill, and you're
like do I even need to fill thisor can I just buy my own shoes?
Right, it's like you, everyeverything that's already
(12:54):
established there, like Jason'srelationship with his son or my
you know, my relationship withmy dad when I was young is takes
that space, takes that priority.
And then, when you're startinga new relationship, you want to
create a new thing together.
You want to create a new home,which is easier when you're
young and you're just like verymalleable, but it's harder when
there's an already establishedhome that you're literally
trying to come in and co-create.
(13:16):
So it's like either you have toslip in and be unnoticed or
there has to be like a wildchange, otherwise you're just.
You're just going to be likecompared and like trying to
replace someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Right, and I don't, I genuinely don't know what that
is like in your seventies.
If you, if you have a secondmarriage, you know, late in life
, do you understand that you'renot going to flip the table over
and start from new, like,because there is some
responsibility here to maintainthe cohesiveness of the family.
But how much responsibility,and I can also understand how
(13:52):
she's not super excited to dothat.
There's not a lot offriendliness here and I'm not
saying that's on Emma's family.
It might be very rightlydeserved, but it's tough.
It's tough when you know peopledon't like you very much.
It's tough like it's tough whenyour own personality traits
make it difficult to be liked,you know, or to like others, and
(14:16):
so I think it's.
Another thing that really stoodout to me was when Mary called
the uncle a pushover and thefamily really objected to that.
Because actually what I'msensing is that some of this
anger that's going on might bemore appropriately labeled
(14:41):
disappointment in the uncle fornot maintaining the traditions,
the house, the cohesivenesshimself, because it's actually
much more his responsibilitythan hers.
But she's getting the fullblame for it and mary, like he
is, he, he is, he's not standingup to her in certain I mean
(15:01):
maybe he is and we don't knowabout it, but in this story he's
actually not standing up to her.
And so I mean maybe he is andwe don't know about it, but in
this story he's actually notstanding up for her.
She's running rough shot allover this whole thing and then
kind of rightly points out likeyou're a bit of a push.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So it's interesting that it came from her and that
this is right, or or it's liketheir closeness and we don't
exactly know what she's tappinginto right.
It's just like, um, there mightbe this closeness in the whole
family that exists, and thenshe's asking or wants it to
(15:35):
change, or maybe he wants it tochange.
He's not actually communicatingit with the family, who knows.
But then she goes well, youknow, you're too much of a
pushover, you're kind of notsetting these boundaries that we
want or I want.
So, maybe this is not a traitthat he has globally, but like
that might be a point ofcontention in their relationship
(15:55):
.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So yeah, I mean he's in a tough position too.
He's being pulled in differentdirections.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
It just reminds me.
It's interesting.
We've talked recently thatthere's some people in our lives
, and even my clients, who haveexperienced a loss in the family
and it's always surprising topeople, including me when I lost
my dad.
You think you're going togrieve the person Like.
(16:22):
You're like, oh, I'm so sadthat that person is here.
I miss them and that'scertainly there.
But sometimes the secret painthat's a constant is then what
do you do with the whole fabricand network around them?
I mean, this is the whole thingthat we talk about over and over
again is that emotions are sohoused in the community and the
(16:44):
social like relationships aroundyou because you don't just
leave that person, you lose thatnetwork of relationships, right
, like that feeling that thefamily could go over to the
uncle and aunt's house and siton this chair and have this
coffee and have this lunch andhave these conversations, right,
(17:04):
right, that's all the structurethat she was a key part of and
kept it together.
And then when you see thatperson go away, you get the
missing that person.
But you also I see a lot offamily members trying to do what
they can to preserve andgetting really upset about.
Well, we used to go over herefor christmas and we all used to
(17:27):
go together and now we're splitup and the this brother has to
go there and that you know like,and people get really upset
that the whole family traditionsyou know have to change and so
you're grieving, you're grievinga family dynamic.
It'll never be the same withoutthat person and that's so hard
(17:47):
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I think that's.
I mean, I agree a thousandpercent.
I see this more as an episodeabout grief than about dealing
with a toxic family member,because and we'll talk, we'll,
we'll talk about the toxicitypart and navigating that.
But I think what I'm noticingin this prompt is all of the
ways that they resent her forcoming in and changing things,
(18:12):
and maybe Emma would object and,you know, add stuff.
But when I think so, my dad hascancer and when I think about
him dying, it is interesting.
I mean there's the yeah, you'reexactly what you're saying
there's the grief over him.
But then I think about holysmokes.
Like my family, I I just don'tknow how it could continue in
(18:36):
any way.
That resembles how it's been.
Like my dad is the cook.
I mean, do you think it's likesimple?
The simple thing about himcreates so much meaning.
Right, he creates because hemakes these beautiful meals.
He creates the place wherepeople come and people feast and
(18:57):
we have events.
Right, it's like if my dad, atleast my mom, would be able to
maintain a house that big byherself, like, is she going to
choose to live alone?
Is she going to choose todownsize?
And then, once she downsize,are people going to like come to
her?
Or is everything going to shiftover to one of my siblings
houses, you know, once we stophaving this like place to um?
(19:19):
I don't know why my words arenot coming to me right now, but,
um, when people come alltogether, Gathering.
Sure, whatever, we don't have aplace to gather.
That is my parents' house.
Like they're the you knowthey're the top.
We all go to them.
Are my siblings and I evengoing to hang out as much?
(19:39):
Like, are these things going tohappen as much, right?
So a lot of things are going tobecome sort of diffuse and
things going to happen as much,right?
So a lot of things are going tobecome sort of diffuse.
And then I mean there's no wayin hell either my parents would
remarry Although my grandfatherdid, when he was 90, he got
engaged when he was like 93 orsomething.
But if they did, like thatperson is going to I mean, she
is a fully formed person, or heis a fully formed person who has
(20:01):
expectations and wants anddesires, and their want and
desire isn't.
I'm going to keep this familywhole and keep it exactly how it
was.
It's probably something similarto.
I have my own life path thatI'm protecting and I'm going to
live as happily as I can andhopefully that person has the
respect and the compassion torealize what their presence does
(20:22):
to the family.
But really, this is also what aloss has done to the family and
that's where so much of thischange has happened and I really
feel for that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I saw when I was reading over Emma's messages
.
It really was striking that apainful part is that that this,
the presence of this woman, isnot allowing them to grieve in
their way.
They can't talk about her, theycan't preserve the house the
way it was, they can't do thesame kind of routines and
gatherings, um, so it's, it's ablocking of this group grieving
(20:59):
process and I do see thatthere's a lot of anxiety around
trying to.
I mean there's the grieving offeeling their emotions and and
and remembering them and justlike talking about them.
But there is also the anxietyof like, oh gosh, my dad was the
cook and we all used to go overand have meals.
(21:21):
Now, who's going to cook?
Right, that simple questionsometimes is like question,
sometimes creates this newanxiety that I'm seeing in my
patients, but me too.
When my grandparents passed away, we would go every year to Hong
Kong to go quote, quote, visitthem.
But we're visiting each other.
(21:43):
That was the time that I saw mycousins and then their kids and
you know they were almost kindof the excuse so that the whole
family could get together.
But now that they're not there,there's this anxiety around
like, okay, who's going to bethat point person?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Like do you want that responsibility?
Do you like who's going to bethat person that draws people in
or does the same, has the samerole as the person you lost?
And if it was someone newcoming in, that's anxiety.
That is just impossible.
And I think that you're right.
This is a grief process thatmight be an extra special pain
(22:20):
to it.
But if the person coming indoesn't have the emotional
skills or the social skills tonavigate that well and to allow
a really tough job of creating afamily of your own, creating a
home and a marriage of your own,but then also allowing for
(22:42):
everyone's grief about theperson you're stepping into.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, I totally agree.
Not being able to talk aboutthe grandmother is completely
inappropriate.
I just I guess I I find thatthere's a conspicuous lack of
anger towards the uncle.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Interesting.
What kind of anger do you thinkthe uncle should get this?
Speaker 1 (22:58):
is his family to protect it's his family and he.
He remarried quickly, beforepeople had grieved.
He let a woman come in andredecorate the house he's
allowing her.
To huff and leave when the auntis mentioned, like I don't and
I and I just feel like thishappens a lot with with divorce
(23:21):
or parents, where people, peopleplace the blame on the person
who's easiest to push away orlose.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
The outsider.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
The outsider yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
I didn't really think aboutthat, about how that it's.
I mean, that position is such adifficult position.
It reminds me of when myhusband was with someone um,
before me, obviously, but it waswith someone that didn't get
(23:52):
along with his family, that well, like, there was a lot of
conflict.
Um, there's a conflict in thatrelationship too, but there was
real conflict.
And the thing is that, like,with people with cluster B
traits, there is a splittingeffect, right, I think that's
people with cluster B traits.
There is a splitting effect,right.
I think that's something thatpeople talk about.
But what that looks like isthat one person can really split
(24:14):
groups of people, literallymeaning some people are good and
some people are bad, and thenthey create this conflict that
literally splits them apart.
And it happens with people whohave cluster B traits and
traditionally it would like ifyou have a treatment team, like
a psychiatrist, psychologist, adoctor, sometimes those
(24:38):
providers will be at war witheach other Because they'll be
like, well, I heard that youprescribed her this and she was
unhappy with it and I, you know,suddenly, like a treatment team
that used to be cohesive is nowat war with each other and
that's why in dialecticalbehavior therapy there's such an
emphasis on all the providersbeing on the same page and
(24:59):
having like a consultation, likethere's a lot of structure
around preventing that.
So when my husband was with theex and it was like all the
family didn't like her and thenthey had the conflict, it was
tough for him because he goesokay, well, what am I supposed
to do?
If I'm allied with her, mygirlfriend, then I'm isolating
(25:24):
from the family, I'm separatingfrom the people I love.
But if I'm in line with them, Imight be like losing someone
that I love, like I'm riskingthe relationship, right.
So they're really stuck betweena rock and a hard place.
And if a family is family andthere's more security in those
relationships, then he has toprotect the new person, right?
(25:44):
He has to protect thegirlfriend because, yeah, she's
like the outsider trying to comein and she's being quote
bullied, so he's got to protecther against the family and that
caused a lot of issues.
So I know that the uncle here,emma's uncle, is in a really
difficult position.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
He is.
Yeah, but part of protectingMary might be saying like hey,
here's how you can get alongbetter.
Yeah, you know protecting Marymight be saying like hey, here's
how you can get along better,yeah, you know, here's what's
good.
And look we, we can talk, wecan do the rest of the episode
as if she has cluster B traits,but we don't actually know that.
I mean right being critical,making critical comments could
be a side effect of like socialanxiety or autism or like all
(26:21):
sorts of things, right?
Or you just say say stuff,stuff, thinking they'd be funny
or it's not.
But you know, there is anotherbesides just the grief element.
There is another part aboutlike maybe there are cluster B
traits coming in and then how doyou navigate around those and
so we can act as if she has that.
But yeah, I just think there'sso much grief here and it's
(26:46):
really hard on every singleperson involved.
I mean the uncle.
This might be part of hisgrieving process is meeting
somebody new and not having tothink that his entire life is
over, and so you know it's hardfor him as well.
But maybe keeping inperspective all of these various
positions could be helpful fortrying to bridge this gap.
(27:07):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
When I first read the story I was biased towards Emma
and I was like that bitch, howcould she do this to this poor
family?
It's so beautiful, they allhang out together.
I want that someday.
But then I'm like, yeah,actually, you know, there is a
lot of emotions there, there's alot of pain.
Anyone stepping into that roleis going to have a hard time and
(27:30):
when you think about howdifficult it must be for her,
it's intimidating to marry intoa really close family.
I mean, goodness right,especially if you do have
cluster B traits, if you do havenarcissism.
The sympathetic view of thosekind of people is that they deal
(27:51):
with anxiety, social anxiety,and try to get connection and
love and approval is through thegrandiose or the attention
seeking behaviors, right.
That's why it's such a disorder, because they learn one way of
trying to make friends yeah andit doesn't work everywhere.
So her coming in and maybe evenlike devaluing other people, uh,
(28:16):
or trying to in different waysbe possessive over the uncle's
time and house and room, andlike maybe some people just come
in and dominate when they don'tknow how to deal with a
uncomfortable situation, so, andit's not good, but that might
be what she's feeling she mayhave a background that tells her
(28:38):
too that she has to take careof herself and take charge, or
she'll be neglected or you know,or insert here other bad
outcome, so we don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
There seems to be some significant immaturity
demonstrated here.
I mean not being able to hearanything about your predecessor
in front of the whole familywhen you're in your 60s or 70s
is like probably something youshould grow out of.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How do you feel when Jason talks about his late wife?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I feel fine, but I don't experience jealousy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
I mean I, you feel no things,you feel nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Typically no other than I mean I kind of like
talking about her because I likeknowing more about his past and
, um, she's definitely a welcometopic.
I mean it might feel strange ifthere were pictures about her,
of her everywhere.
(29:44):
I mean, there have been, therehave been times when I've
wondered if his love for mecould be complete, given that he
lost his wife.
I don't know if that's reallywhat I mean to say there, but,
um, there have certainly beentimes when I've been a little
bit concerned that that thathurt.
(30:08):
I forget who wrote this line.
It was in a book that I read,but it was that it was basically
that, um, somebody, somebodywas dating another person, or I
was in love with another person,and that person's spouse died,
and so it it was like, yes,they're available, now I get to
(30:29):
have them, or something.
And the quote was somethinglike not realizing that a dead
oh shit.
It was like not realizing thata ghost is your hardest enemy.
It was actually a reallywell-written quote, but it was
basically like if you've lostsomeone, if you've broken up
(30:54):
with somebody, presumably you'venoticed some of their flaws.
Right.
If somebody dies, you tend toidealize them and cement that
idealization forever.
And that's it was that a ghostis the hardest competitor.
Hmm, ooh.
Yeah.
That's a good quote.
Um, and that's probably truehere I, however, I think when
(31:18):
you're in your sixties orseventies you kind of have to
know that comes with theterritory.
But I don't know what her ownrelationship with her first
husband was, or she had ahusband, or you know what her
relationship history was likeLike.
Maybe she's in a period of timewhere she feels like this is it
for me, this is the one, thisis the time I finally am valued
and prioritized, and yada, yada.
(31:40):
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I do remember part of the story is that she has a
difficult relationship with herkids and family.
So I assume that she waspartnered before, or at least
you know at some point, and shewas sent away to school at a
young age.
So there definitely are someattachment issues and that's the
(32:02):
only reason why I'm a littlebit more comfortable thinking
that it's a cluster B behavior,because if it was just the way
she behaves with this family,okay, you can't actually
diagnose personality disordersif it's only showing up in one
area.
It has to be across all domainsof your life, life.
So if she has had this kind ofissues before, now that I'm
(32:26):
thinking about that, how sad isit that if she's had attachment
issues, has felt any distance orproblems with her family, and
then she's like, okay, I'm gonnamarry into a family that's has
none of the problems I had.
Not only will I kind of feelenvious and intimidated and
other, and just like I'm aroundthe thing that I never had.
(32:48):
And then how do I fit into this?
Right, it's like you're, you're, you're facing the success
where your life has failed in away.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So now I feel bad, for I mean, I think, she's
shooting herself in the foot ina multitude of ways.
Um, because I feel bad for Mary, I mean, I think she's shooting
herself in the foot in amultitude of ways, because I
feel bad for Emma too, like Ithink this would suck.
But yeah, I mean, mary's in atough spot and it sounds like
she doesn't necessarily have allthe tools to navigate it
totally effectively.
And it's, I think.
(33:23):
You know, when you marry intosomebody where they're a progeny
, you have to figure out, as thenewcomer, how to honor the
deceased and how to keep themalive in some way, even when
it's uncomfortable for you.
And that's what she seems to befailing to do.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, what would be the appropriate way?
I mean, I think I would feelit's one thing if I, if, as you
were saying, with your situation, like you're coming in and
marrying someone who, well, wedon't know if you're marrying
yet, wink, wink, you know,you're, you were deeply involved
(34:03):
with someone who has a you know, who has a past like that.
But then it's like you enter ina whole family and they're all
grieving and you're the one,you're the one who's not
grieving, you're the one who'slike, taking your place.
I would.
I mean, I probably wouldn'tleave or storm out or look upset
, but I would feel reallyawkward if this whole family is
(34:25):
like oh, do you remember whenAunt So-and-So used to do this?
Oh gosh, this house used tolook like this.
You know, like I would feellike, all right, it's very clear
that you guys missed the personI'm taking the place of, so
great.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right and probably wish that I did not exist and
that other person did.
Yeah, and it's odd, you know,like it's you're coming in at
the end of somebody's life andat the end of your own life, and
so how much?
How much do you kind of keepthings as they are and just sort
of try to enjoy each other,versus how much do you make your
(35:04):
own life together?
And it's just odd knowing that,like your first wife had 50
years with you and I'm going toget 10.
I don't know what that wouldfeel like.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, it's like watching the golden bachelorette
or the golden bachelor.
Oh my God I was.
I was not going to watch thegolden Bachelorette until you
convinced me, and then I'm soglad I did, because that is the
most heartwarming show, where itjust you know, like it really
(35:39):
was just interesting to watchthe Golden Bachelorette versus
the Bachelor or Bachelorette,because there's the young, the
youngins, there's so muchcompetition, and then there's
like talk about the future andwhat they want and whether their
wants are aligned.
And then the goldenbachelorette was a lot about
processing what they've lost,like they all bonded because
they were like we're allwidowers and we're like what is
it like to lose the person thatyou made your family with right,
(36:02):
and then is it?
Is it then going to be likeyou're now?
Your new relationship is gonnabe about keeping each other
company while you grieve for therest of your life.
I mean, what does that looklike?
Right?
Like are you just kind of, youknow, keeping each other company
while you remember?
Speaker 1 (36:23):
yeah it's sweet, but it it flies in the face of our,
our young and kind of, you know,concept of love and romance how
so are they creating something?
New?
Yeah, I think our concept oflove and romance is like we are
the one and like he loves memore than anyone, and you know
(36:50):
yeah, I mean.
Jason did a good job for me, youknow, I mean he doesn't make me
feel like second choice.
Um, you know, I I really thinkthat he is like fully excited
and in love and you know, andlike he loved Heidi too.
Um, but that's in the past andhe's excited to have a future.
But that's a tough.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I mean that's a tough it's actually so much similar
to the topics we were saying inour other episodes about like
non-monogamy right.
It's like we're kind ofbreaking down this, this uh kind
of outdated idea that we'relooking for the one right, the,
the special one, and you know,you're just kind of kind of
(37:31):
biding time until the specialperson, then you like live out
your days with that person.
It's like no, we are living waylonger than we expect and there
could be just different onesfor different phases of your
life.
Yeah.
And maybe for a family too.
Yeah, there might not be theone.
(37:51):
I mean when we say the one now,it's like who do we make our
family with?
But now there's blendedfamilies, there's multiple
families, different stages ofyour life and what makes sense
for different times of your life, like when we talk about dating
in our 20s.
We're like're like, oh, wedated the wrong man until we
found the right man.
(38:12):
It's like, no, we probablydated people who made sense for
being in our 20s, who's now hadtotally different values and
goals and characteristics thanthe version of us now.
Um so and you know, thinkingabout it, if the uncle was with
(38:32):
this, with his late wife sincehe was a kid, he never got to
date.
He never got to date his crazylike.
You know that, like weird flingthat the the ex that you
shouldn't have right.
Like maybe he's making hiswhoopsies now you know, someone
who's exciting yeah, I mean, Iremember when we were 20s and
(38:53):
dating all people with all sortsof fun cluster b traits, toxic
whatever.
That wasn't even toxic in ourday.
It was just like, you know, thebad boys that everyone wanted.
But but there is like anintensity and excitement and
feeling alive with someone whobrings drama right.
There's a little bit of likeooh, someone's coming in and
(39:14):
just controlling and telling mewhat to do and all that.
You know.
There's an intensity in thatdynamic.
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder how some of this stuffis getting communicated to Emma
too.
Like who's communicating?
Like when Mary said you can'thave lunch with your son anymore
.
Mm-hmm.
Like who told her that?
Because it seems strange ifMary did and it would also seem
a bit grapeviny if the son did.
(39:43):
So do we actually know how thatconversation went down.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No, I think that.
I think it sounds like.
It sounds like there's some ofit that Emma has seen for
herself, like some of the digswere towards her and her
siblings, but it might be passeddown also from her parents or,
you know, like the extendedfamily involved.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
But I just wonder if that conversation really went
down that way, if it was likeyou can't have lunch with him
anymore, this is inappropriate.
Or if it was something like hey, like you, having lunch with
him disrupts our yada, yada andwho knows.
I mean look, we know there'sdemonstrated immature behavior.
You just can't huff when yourpredecessor is brought up in
front of your predecessor'sfamily.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
You just can't do that, unless it was like oh,
remember when she was here, notlike Mary sitting over there.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
You know, right, there's, there might be ways
that they're bringing bringingher up, that's, we don't know
what she's gone, yeah, um, andtelling if she didn't tell him
that he can't have lunch withhis son, that's inappropriate,
that's like that's mega bad.
So I do, I'm sorry, sorry.
(41:00):
No, no, you go.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It's the dilemma that we therapists working with
interpersonal problems alwayscome across, where you're
getting one view right and, toreally understand who's quote,
toxic.
That's why we hate the wordtoxic in social media and stuff,
because you're getting one sideof the story and different
(41:24):
perspectives are valid eventhough they might not mesh.
So you're getting one side ofthe story, but I think what we
are getting from the way Emmadescribed it it's like the
biggest pain is like the rippleeffects across the family and
how it really interferes withtheir grieving process, or even
(41:45):
maybe lack of grieving process,of trying to preserve something
that you know a family dynamicthat isn't there anymore.
It can't exist.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
In the same way, yeah , I know, I I think my mind was
going to a similar place of.
First of all, I may beover-correcting and trying too
hard to see the hard to seeMary's point, because I am so
aware of this in my own therapysessions where it's like, oh,
it'd be so easy to just bashthis person, but I just don't
know.
And then I always think of myex-fiance in therapy and how
he's presented me and howconvincing I'm sure that was.
(42:12):
But yeah, I mean, I think partof this is how do you learn to
accept that your family that hasbeen stable for so long is
suddenly changing and is nevergoing to go back to normal and
new people come in and upendthings and that is really hard
and it's a really hardadjustment and it would have
(42:34):
been probably easier if therehad been a period of time where
Mary wasn't there and they gotused to the new normal and kind
of figured out what that was.
But this one, I mean, it perhapsdid rush the grieving process a
little bit and now they don'tknow how to grieve.
But the reality is, is it'schanged?
It's like I always go back tothe time when my Christmases
(42:59):
started changing, when mysiblings were all getting older
and getting partners and goingoff to their houses, or the
partners were coming here to myhouse and I was like, wow, my
family, my traditions, it's allchanging and I don't have any
control over it.
And it feels like I should havecontrol over it because I'm a
member of this family and myfamily is the thing that gives
me identity and tells me how tolive and has shaped me and and
(43:25):
when that changes, it's, it'sreally, it's really disturbing.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, I think we know that the if, like going into
tips like what Emma and herfamily should do, yeah, I mean,
it's step one.
We, you know, step one's got toalways be grieving, and that I
mean even step before.
That is accepting the new, thenew normal, accepting the
reality of what you've lost andwhat's here, right, so you go,
(43:52):
okay, the closeness that we had,all the traditions we had, the
vacations, the visits, thefurniture they're not here
anymore and just like, allowthat to be extremely painful and
then to be like, okay, well,because, if you're like I
(44:13):
noticed this in my clients ifthey're trying their best to try
to, if they're trying theirbest to try to MacGyver
something back and duct tape itto look like what it used to be,
it's, it's not going to work.
You're just going to cause painand struggle with yourself.
So stop doing that and like,just sit and accept and just be
(44:33):
like this is so sad and we, wejust was miss our aunt so much.
Um, and then say, okay, what wasit what?
What was so special about that?
Right, like, maybe we can'thave lunches every day, but like
, what, what was so importantabout that?
Was it that they had adedicated time and space to
connect.
Is it that they went onvacations together and like the
(44:57):
kids could play, like what wasit that was so special, and then
try to capture that in maybe anew way?
Yeah.
Easier said than done.
I don't know the answers to allof this, but I think it's like
that's the grieving process andtraditions of like what did we
love about that and how can thatbe possible in the
circumstances we have now?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I totally agree.
There's a lot of elements herethat we don't know about too.
I mean, I wonder if there'sconcern here for the.
I wonder if there's concernhere for the uncle of like he
seems to be with this womanwho's taking over his brain.
(45:40):
Is he okay?
I don't know if it would bemaybe a good idea to just have
some conversations with him,take him out to lunch, if you're
still allowed, uh, and just notbe like initially, like hey,
I'm concerned, but maybe likehey, how's it going with Mary?
What does she bring to you?
What do you love about her?
What you know, so like reallyunderstanding, like what is it
(46:04):
that this is doing for him?
And you know, I've just.
Then you can say like I've justnoticed a couple things and I
just wanted to hear what youthink about them, what you think
might be going on.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, I think that now we're jumping into the tips,
for how do you navigate whenthere's like a gatekeeper to
your lunch, when someone comesin and puts up a gate?
Number one we've always talkedabout this but don't polarize,
don't sit that person down andbe like we hate Mary, we all are
(46:37):
against her.
This is an intervention.
An intervention, I mean you gotto know that she sucks.
That's that's going to polarizehim.
Right, he's there, he's goingto leave, he's going to be.
No, no other position than todefend her right.
So lean the other way.
Opposite action go, you know,maybe extend, as we're doing,
(46:57):
like compassion andunderstanding for what you might
be going through and how hardthis might be.
Maybe lean into that by tryingto develop a relationship with
her in a way that maybe breaksdown her walls, like kind of get
to the softer side.
If there's any kind of cluster Btraits, you know that they're
just really insecure and they'reterrified of feeling rejected
and devalued.
So I mean you don't want toreinforce the shitty behavior,
(47:21):
but at least like gettingunderneath that and getting past
all the defenses and reallygetting to know her and then
being like hey, uncle, we, youknow, we love that, you're happy
Can, but I miss like one-on-onetime with you.
Can we hang out together andhaving like some time by himself
?
And if he brings up like I'mpush over, be like what do you
(47:43):
think right?
Like kind of gently gettingthat alone time to connect with
him by himself, but then alsojust to have a lifeline, just in
case that it's really toxic,right?
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah.
As for just surviving this, Imean, I don't know, it could be
that.
It could be that, yeah, gettingto know Mary better is the
answer here.
She might just be acting from aplace of total discomfort all
the time.
She's making comments that comeacross as critical and awkward,
and maybe that's just like a Idon't know how to behave with
(48:19):
people that I'm not jiving with.
You know, I don't know if she'strying to isolate the uncle,
because otherwise she has tospend a whole bunch of time with
people that don't like her andthat she, she, doesn't feel
comfortable around.
So I don't know.
I mean, maybe just getting toknow her better would be a key,
but she also might not makeherself available to be known,
(48:44):
and in that case it really ismore of just like well, how do
we navigate around this folder?
And I think, there you're, justwe're back to acceptance and I
don't know figuring out how tospend more time with other
family members.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I don't know that.
There's an amazing answer weknow, just with techniques of
dealing with people with clusterB, like narcissistic or BPD
traits.
That technique called grayrocking we've described before,
where, if you feel like they'rebaiting you with devaluing or
critical comments like, oh, lookat you, or just something this
little dig of, when you like, oh, look at you.
Or you know just something thatthis little dig of you know,
when you feel like they'relooking down at you and you feel
(49:25):
like you feel that yourdefensive hackles coming up,
right, you're just like, oh no,I'm better than you, are Also
bad, right, Like if you don'tget wrapped up in the power play
that's being brought up, right,there's like this strong, like
fight and competition, that kindof can come up when you feel
(49:48):
that, or justifying or defendingyourself.
But just don't engage with that,because that's where their
comfort zone is, just just grayrock, which means just not
giving much, like detachingemotionally and not giving much
back.
Right, you don't have to liketalk back or give a comeback,
just be like, if they make acomment about the way you look,
(50:09):
like, oh, all right yeah whatelse?
like changing the subject, kindof like letting it slide off you
, acting like it doesn't botheryou, even if it might.
Um, that might be in the earlystages.
Maybe in the later stages, whenyou get to know each other well
and get to know mary a littlebit better, at least, my
(50:31):
technique is to point out thosethings, but like in a joking
manner, like ouch, that hurt, oryou know, just you know just
like oh yeah.
I did see one of our one of ourpeers in grad school.
Like we were talking to someonewho was just like saying
(50:51):
outlandish things, just justbragging and saying all sorts of
crazy stuff, and we all kind ofrolled our eyes because this
person is just a weirdo and justsays weird things in public
places and settings and he justsmiled he's such a good
therapist he just smiled and hewas like wow, that was such a
weird thing to say and he wasjust so blunt and it just
(51:16):
disarmedarm that person and wewere all laughing, but it was
like a laugh with because hewasn't he, he will almost have
this tone of like curiosity,like what a weird thing to say,
and then so we were all in on it, right, and it just it's.
That's a very hard nuance to getlike a a laughing and pointing
(51:36):
out their behavior in a waythat's still like compassionate,
like a laughing and pointingout their behavior in a way
that's still like compassionateand um, but I think that comes
with time and a little bit oftrust and a little bit of
comfort with each other.
Um, hard to do, really hard todo.
Yeah, I mean, there could alsobe like a conversation right
With that person and saying, uh,you know, validate, validate,
(51:59):
validate Also that comment youmade I've really hurt my
feelings or maybe uncomfortable.
Or you know, when we're talkingabout our aunt and you walked
away like I don't know how tonavigate that, because we want
to talk about her, but we cansee that it makes you
uncomfortable, what do you thinkwe should do?
How do you feel when, whenshe's brought up right, like
having that honest?
How do you feel when?
(52:20):
when she's brought up right likehaving that honest conversation
.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Yeah, really hard to.
I know I'm caught between firsttalking to the uncle about that
, like, hey, have you noticedthat Mary kind of doesn't like
being around when we bring upHer aunt?
You know, what do you thinkabout that?
Because it's it's hurtful to usand we don't know what to do
about it.
But it could also be a goodstrategy to say, hey, mary, we
don't know what to do about it,but it could also be a good
strategy to say, hey, mary, likeI noticed that when we talk
(52:47):
about you, know our aunt, thatyou kind of leave the room.
I was wondering what that's likefor you and just going there
for going for the curiosityfirst, and then kind of bring it
back to like, oh, you know,that makes a lot of sense.
I guess what's tough for us isthat we're still grieving her
and for us she's all around andwe're so happy you're here too,
(53:07):
but she's here.
She's still here for us too,and it's really hard to not be
able to talk about her andwondering if there's any way it
could be more comfortable.
You know something like that.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah, I think we're talking about just like making
peace offerings instead of, youknow, yeah, the stonewall or the
intervention approach, or thecutting out or ostracizing,
because that just makes it worse.
Right, that just makes it.
That just goes into thedirection that they don't want,
which is more division in thefamily.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
So, yeah, I don't know.
I also don't want to leave themon a note where we just
empathized with her aunt, forwith her step aunt the whole
time and then, you know, didn'tgive her enough because it it.
I would hate, I would hate this.
Um, I think what's tough isthat she, this woman, hasn't
done anything so glaringlyunforgivable that it's time for
(53:58):
like a let's kick her out of thefamily or like isolate from her
.
Yet but clearly, if her wholefamily is feeling this way,
there's something up.
You know, like this isn't, thisisn't emma's immaturity, or
just like not being able to seewhat's going on because she's so
grief stricken.
I mean, I think there's a wholemess of things, but this is
(54:21):
really tough and clearly thewhole family has feelings about
it.
I do wonder if they're pumpingeach other up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah, that might be.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I know my family can do that, you know.
I mean we're having aconversation about, like, how to
bring Mary in and there mightbe a separate conversation of
what if that's impossible whatif that's impossible?
Speaker 2 (54:48):
what if Mary will just never get along with the
family?
Um, yeah, yeah, it's like.
What, if you like, how do youjust live with someone with
cluster b traits and not don'thave this magic healing fantasy
where you have a conversationand you all cry and hug and
suddenly you're, you're, you'regreat and understand that she
(55:16):
might be just like complicatingand maybe blocking some grieving
processes.
So like, don't let that happen,like grieve together, like talk
about it and recognize thatthings have changed.
And if the main goal and valueis family closeness, then what
does that look like now with her?
It might look like justignoring her, right, her.
(55:40):
It might look like justignoring her, right, it might
just be like smiling andlaughing and making fun of her,
but in a compassionate way,right?
I think the the one do not do ismake her the enemy because they
don't anyone cluster B traits,they don't respond well to that.
It doesn't take down thedefenses, it makes it worse.
Then the uncle's in a reallytough position, literally
(56:03):
between rock and a hard place.
Everyone has to choose sidesand it's going to polarize him
even further to defend her andso just any kind of like
pointing and, you know,ostracizingizing her, it's just
going to make it worse.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
So, yeah, do anything but that and probably try to
establish some time that you canhave with him regularly, even
just to check in on him.
I mean, if she is claus derbyand we don't know, it's going to
be tough for him eventuallyright, right, let him have his
crazy ex moment and then makesure he's a good prenup.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I don't know, yeah Well that ship has probably
sailed.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
I guess you can still revise your prenup after
marriage.
But it's interesting because Ijust think that this question
changes depending on who thefamily member is.
I mean, it changes so much.
If she's talking about her momdying and being replaced, that
might be a different episode.
If this was her brother gettingmarried, another different
(57:06):
episode.
But I like this element.
I like that it's an older kindof patriarch.
What do you do there?
I don't know, Maybe there willbe other episodes we do where
it's other family members, but Ithink that's all for now.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yeah, but thank you to Emma.
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