September 10, 2025 • 56 mins
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What happens when the hamster wheels we've been running on suddenly stop spinning? In this raw and deeply personal Season 5 finale, we pull back the curtain on our own mental health journeys over the past year, revealing the profound transformations that occur when life forces you to confront your deepest wounds.
Dr. Kibby shares her post-cancer emotional reckoning, describing how surviving treatment was just the beginning of her healing journey. The conversation turns to our viral self-hatred episode, exploring what happens when you finally see the wounds that have defined your life- and the grief that comes with that awareness.
Meanwhile, Dr. Jacqueline reflects on her transformative year completing psychology internship in New York, finding healing and validation after years of feeling misaligned in the public eye.
We dive into fertility struggles, entrepreneurial fears, and the startling gender divide we've witnessed on social media. Dr. Kibby talks about what it's been like to build KulaMind for loved ones of people with mental illness, and stumbling upon the epidemic of women desperate for help with their angry, alcoholic, and shut-down partners.
Have topic suggestions for Season 6? Click on "send us a text" link at the top of this page to send us a message or email us at kibby@kulamind.com. We'll be back in early October 2025 with fresh insights and conversations to support you in supporting your loved ones through mental health challenges.
***If you need help dealing with your loved ones' mental health, emotional or addiction issues, join the KulaMind Community. We hold your hand through the hardest moments, teach you every proven tactic we know, and make sure you NEVER feel alone again.
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibby here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people you love.
KulaMind is the online coachingplatform and community that I
built to support you in themoment when you need it the most
, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs or
setting boundaries, even ifyou're just curious and want to
(00:28):
chat about it.
Book a free call with me bygoing to the link in the show
notes or going to coolamindcomK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get
started.
Thank you, and enjoy the show.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:40):
Hi Little Helpers, Welcome to our
wrap-up episode.
We are wrapping up season fiveof A Little Help for our friends
, going on about a month and ahalf of a break, and we just
like to do these retrospectiveswhere we look back at what we've
learned this year and also,like personal stuff, the changes
that have happened over thelast year, which are numerous.
(01:03):
So, kippy, what's on your mindfrom the last year?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:08):
I mean, we just did a juicy episode on your
whole grad school experienceand that's going to be released
in the beginning of season six,so check that out.
I'm like, oh, like, basicallylike we have to comb through to
make sure that it is everythingin there is kosher.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:27):
so there's a lot of stuff in there
too.
It's a grad school episode,could be um yeah.
I mean, I also like aboutthings about my own life.
So talking to you on that gradschool episode, that um shock
and terrify me so really, oh man, I was.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:44):
I thought it would be like relieving, I guess
, like we'll talk after okay,okay, um.
so we started the season lastyear, 2024, in October.
I was just finishing my cancertreatment and getting um surgery
and it like because, likesettling into being a CEO and co
(02:09):
founder of a company and cofounding the cool of mine
community and the app, and goingthrough, like after the trauma
of cancer, kind of realizinglike like it's funny, going
through cancer, you're insurvive, like literally survival
mode.
(02:29):
So you're just going throughlike okay, I have to get this
treatment and that treatment,this treatment, but then I feel
like the emotional effects of itcame out afterwards.
So I actually think thatprobably this season, october to
now, was emotionally probablyone of the harder years that I
remember.
So I I kind of like dug into myown trauma and tried to
(02:51):
understand that and digest thata little bit more, um, and I
think it reflected in ourepisodes on, you know, toxic
relationships and familydynamics and emotional
immaturity and of coursenarcissism.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (03:07):
Yeah, so we um yeah you have more
personal than ever this year,and a lot of people responded
really powerfully to it too.
I think it was an episode theself-hatred episode that meant a
lot to people and a lot offeedback about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:24):
Yeah, that was really scary to do because I
was in a phase where I was likespiraling that day.
I was triggered and kind oflike awash with, like oh, I
realized that all the thingsthat I've dealt with as a kid,
it's funny.
Trauma is really funny,especially childhood trauma.
Because you know itintellectually.
You're like, oh God, mychildhood was so, so hard and I
(03:46):
know I have all these weirdsymptoms because of it.
Like I'm, I'm like reallyinsecure in relationships or
blah, blah, blah.
Right, you, you might knowintellectually, but there are
some times in therapy or momentsof insight where you're like,
oh, my god, like I went throughtrauma, like it didn't, and it
(04:06):
clicked for me only after ohyeah, because I got into an
argument with my mom after I gotmy last surgery, my most major
surgery, when I was one of themost vulnerable times in my life
, and it just brought up allthis, all these old memories.
And then I was so stupid that Iwent to a clinical training
about like how to work withchildren who were abused as
(04:32):
children and like family therapy, training of like, like
physical, sexual, all sorts ofviolence, and so sitting there
for two days hearing stories ofkids going through trauma
brought up some of my trauma andI was like fully like, oh my
God, like I.
I was one of those kids, right,so that was just a whole that
(04:56):
was fun.
So the self hatred episode Iwas like spinning and we're.
I don't forgot what we're goingto talk about that day.
But we decided to pivot and saylike, let me, let's just talk
about this, let's talk aboutwhat I'm going through and that
was really crazy, do you feel?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:11):
I mean, it has been a journey this year
of like really kind of um,uncovering the emotional
memories and realizing theimpact that that trauma has had
on you and your identity and howyou feel about yourself, and
then kind of saying for thefirst time that you deal with
self-hatred and it isinteresting because we had a
(05:32):
self-hatred expert on beforethat and then suddenly you're
like wait, this is me.
Do you feel differently today?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:43):
I would like to say that I am all cured, like
now that I see it and forgivenmyself and given myself grace
and done all the therapy things.
But it goes in and out.
I think that the biggest changenow is that my inner workings,
like all my neuroses that I haveon a daily basis, like trying
(06:06):
to work really, really hard on abig, impossible professional
goal and beating myself up overit, like why am I not good
enough, why I'm so behind otherpeople to do better, like I'm
realizing how much of that islike a constant soundtrack in my
mind and I think I knew that,that.
But I'm like watching it on adaily basis.
(06:29):
So I think I'm more aware of itand more aware of like the
gravity of it.
I think, like I think I was soattached to and like secure in
my coping mechanisms of beingstrong and cure in my coping
mechanisms of being strong andyou know self-sufficient and
(06:49):
professionally you know strongthat like having a kid and
cancer stripped all that away sohard that I was like well, I
was really had to confront allof these.
You know the effects of traumaand I don't, I don't, I can't
say that I'm like cured.
Now I struggle in on a dailybasis.
But I'm much more aware of itnow, in a new way, like I've
(07:11):
taken a step back and I've beenlike, oh, I have been wearing
orange goggles for the past 39years.
I took off the goggles or threwthem away, but I could see that
I know that the world is notorange anymore.
So yeah, so I'm at like a stageof healing.
That's like I I I've beengrieving it more lately and
(07:34):
seeing it for what it is.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:35):
So I mean, I would be shocked if you
were like I love myself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:39):
Everything is great, I think seeing me too,
man, I'm trying to get therewith manifestation right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:52):
The last episode of like, like
thinking my way out of my trauma.
I'm lovable, I'm good enough.
I think seeing the goggles iswhere I mean I would consider
that a massive win if I were atherapist right and my patients
had to be able to say, like,this isn't automatic, this isn't
reality.
This is an automatic reality.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:06):
I still buy into it a lot, but I can see why
and I can see what's going onand I can at least begin to
question it yeah it, there is ait's funny, we're just talking
to our friend about this likethere is a sadness and a bummer
like a resignation when you seethat, because I think this we
get into these like copingmechanisms, these like hamster
(08:27):
wheels of like here is how Icompensate for my poor wound.
Right, I do this thing, I'm goodat school, I chase this, I do
that like I have this addiction.
And when you see it for what itis, as a coping mechanism of
like, you know just somethingthat's always there.
(08:48):
There is this bummer of like oh, this hamster wheel doesn't go
anywhere, this is just a hamsterwheel.
I thought this was like theroad, like my marathon to like
across the country, but it'sliterally just a hamster wheel,
just a hamster wheel.
Yeah, and I'll get off this one, I'll get on another one.
So it's just like seeing it forwhat it is kind of takes the
(09:11):
hope away that the hamster,running on a hamster wheel, will
actually get you forward.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:15):
I mean yeah, but yeah, I mean I see.
So I see so many clients who,like you know, beat up on
themselves and I think the hopeis that and I do with body image
too, you know I think the hopeis that, like, if they punish
themselves enough and, you know,put enough attention on the
problem, then like that'llmotivate them to change things.
(09:35):
And it doesn't seem to work,and so at least understanding
like I think this is kind of afaulty process, it's not, it's
actually not going to take metowards my dreams is at least
the first major step, like thefirst step that has any promise
of changing things.
But it is hard to take thatnext step.
Yes, I still beat myself up,but so do you yeah, it's like,
(09:57):
well then, what am I gonna get?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:58):
on another, like I'm gonna run somewhere
else.
Like, yeah, it's hard, it'shard to, yeah, it's hard to let
go because also it's like it'shard, it's hard to yeah, it's
hard to let go because also it'slike it's such a part of your
identity.
Right, like I'm on this hamsterwheel and I'm a person who runs
on this hamster wheel and you,you don't know what, what else
you're going to do.
Right, you're going to relax.
Are you going to forgiveyourself?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:20):
Like yeah, yeah, I mean accepting.
Yeah, I mean accepting right,accepting my.
My body feels like that wouldnever somehow motivate me to
like work out more, have ahealthier.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:39):
To be like I'm beautiful no matter what, no
matter what shape and size I am, or by the way.
Do you feel like you are moreconcerned with your body image
these days, or are you morevocal about it, or is this like
has always been?
The case, because we've beentalking about it more lately,
like you know explicitly, but Iwas wondering if this is a
(11:00):
change for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (11:02):
It's because of the weight gain.
I mean for the weight gain meanbefore the weight gain, I was
still obsessed with my body, butit was more about my body shape
than weight.
I I would have like targetareas of my body that I was
obsessed with um, and then lipotook care of that in some ways.
Um, and now it's more aboutlike, whether the weight has
(11:22):
gone to my face and destroyed myface, which I was always quite
fond of.
I actually never hadinsecurities with my face before
um, but yeah, I think, I thinkthat having my weight before I
had like a a thing that I hated,but having my weight feel like
it's taken out of my control Idon't know if that was was the
(11:46):
SSRI, or if that was age, youknow, or if I changed behavior
that that really freaked me outand kind of made me obsessive as
well.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:55):
Well, you had internship and you had a year
in New York, something that youwere yearning for in some ways,
yearning for being at Duke andbeing at North and being in
North Carolina.
You're like, oh, there was apart of you that like missed it
(12:17):
here.
Yeah, you got to be here andyou got, you know, internship.
So what was that?
What was that like for you?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (12:25):
Yeah, I'm trying to kind of process it
.
I mean, I think what I firstnoticed when I got to New York
was how low my tolerance for ithad gotten.
I started having, like myparents visited me in my first
like week there or something,and I remember we went to the
(12:46):
MoMA and I was like I cannothandle this.
Like the crowds are driving menuts.
I was like I was having to dopaced breathing.
I was like I was.
I was angry, like I was really.
My nerves were really, reallyfrayed.
Um, and then you let me stay inyour awesome place for a couple
of months and that wasmiraculous, cause it was like a
(13:09):
great area of town and it wasjust nice.
And then I like moved into myreal apartment and it just the
area sucked and like the, it wasreally convenient subway wise.
That was why it was chosen.
Um, but you know, like I'm ifanybody's on YouTube, like you
can only see a little tiny bitof my bedroom, but my house is
(13:29):
like palatial and that's notbecause Jace and I are rich,
that's because we live in NorthCarolina and because I'm
comparing it to my New Yorkapartment, I just have way, way
lower tolerance for thediscomforts of New York and that
really wore on me and I was.
I was happy in a way because Ididn't want to fall back in love
of New York and that reallywore on me and I was.
I was happy in a way because Ididn't want to fall back in love
with New York, but I alsodidn't want to fall out of love
(13:51):
with New York and I was reallykind of teetering that line and
I think I basically achievedthat, where I'm like I don't
think I could survive in NewYork unless I had a ton of money
and could like buy myself spaceand never have to leave in the
winter, like never have to gooutside.
But I still love New York, youknow, and I felt this year
(14:14):
really healed me in a waybecause, as we'll talk about in
the grad school episode thatyou'll have to listen to in a
month and a half, I did not feelcomfortable at Duke.
I immediately when I steppedfoot in North Carolina, I was
like I am not meant to be here,like nobody here gets me.
I feel like I'm too much.
I feel like I'm too loud.
I need to tone myself down.
Oh no, I've put myself down toomuch.
(14:35):
Now people think I'm likeinsecure and quiet and weird and
it's just, it was this fiveyears of feeling uncalibrated?
And then I step into New Yorkand I'm like, oh there, I am.
Like people like me again.
I can be who I want to be.
I can present the way Iactually am.
I had like an amazing trainingdirector at my internship site
(14:56):
who was also my PTSD supervisorand she like, literally, if I
think about her for more thanthree seconds I'll choke up,
like she just like reallyrescued my self-esteem and liked
me.
She liked me, she admired me,she didn't think I was a walking
liability.
(15:17):
She, you know, and like I'm not, I don't necessarily want to
compare her to like like myadvisor got the person that
needed to be sculpted for fiveyears, you know.
So he got like a, an unformedmass of clay and he had to like
he had a harder job of it thanshe did.
So I'm I'm not trying to like,do a contrast there, but you
(15:37):
know she got more of a finishedproduct, but one that had had
her self-esteem like, but onethat had had her self-esteem
like kind of not destroyed,certainly, but hurt, you know,
over a long time, not by Dukeonly, but like by the internet.
(15:58):
And I just, you know, I just Iwould walk into her office and
feel like I'm going to be likeadmired and accepted and just
fundamentally liked for who I amand the work that I do and that
meant the world to me, um, andthat's just how I felt, you know
, at my internship site for ayear, like the patient
population was tough, the Bronx,va is, I mean, just like
(16:18):
uncomfortable place in variousways, um, but you know it was
like really, really what Ineeded, various ways, um, but
you know, it was like really,really what I needed.
And I, just I, you know, mostof my like 80% probably of my
friends live in New York city,so I was back into my community,
I was, you know, I was justrescued in certain ways.
(16:38):
So that was really needed, sothat was really needed.
And now I'm glad to be in warmweather again and my big house
with my boyfriend, except notreally because I'm going to
Africa tomorrow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:54):
It's going to be so cool.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (16:59):
What are you going to do in Africa?
I'm literally going for fiveweeks with just a backpack and a
sleeping bag, so I I'm gonna beon safari for 17 days actually.
Then I'll be doing anothersafari for three days, so more
like 20 days of camping and um,that is gonna be through
zimbabwe and botswana and southafrica, and then I'm gonna be
(17:20):
volunteering at a conservationin namibia and that'll be the
second safari, also goingthrough the Namib desert, and
I'm it's going to be awesome.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:29):
It's going to be awesome.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (17:30):
But it's like, oh my God, like when
you have to actually go and dosomething, epic, it's makes you
scared the day before.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:37):
Write a journal.
Write a journal Because, like Iwas just thinking that we
should do some episodes when youcome back about, you know,
traveling to such a differentplace.
You know so many things thatcould come up.
But like, write a journal, youknow, like actually physically
get a little journal and writedown where you went.
You know what was like, becauseyou're going to forget all the
day-to-day stuff and you'regoing to look back on that and
(17:57):
wish you had, like, like wheredid I eat on that Tuesday?
Or like what, what?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (18:03):
yeah, what was it like when I went to
this store or whatever you knowyeah, I mean my, my dream
growing up was to be a zoologistor like a conservationist.
So I just I want to getpregnant in a year.
So I wanted a chance tovolunteer on a conservation at
least one time in my life beforeI had kids.
Um, actually, funny enough, mytraining director she has a 12
(18:25):
year old or 13 year old and theylike go volunteer on
conservations a lot together.
So I'm like maybe, maybe I'lldo it again in my future.
But yeah, um, it's a big yearand you know, new York kind of
reseduced me a little bit in theend.
There, you know, it was likebeautiful weather and that's it
(18:45):
really.
That's all it takes.
Yeah, I, my first day back, Iwas a little dissociated and sad
and I didn't want to show Jasonthat I was sad, because I just
wanted him to experience mebeing happy to see him again.
I was, but I was also grievingsomething.
So there's that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:07):
Yeah, I mean you just you just closed out a
huge chapter in your life, likeit, just like it flies by, but
it was also like a better partof a decade.
You know we're we weredifferent people when we started
grad school and and all thisjourney becoming psychologists,
like it really was liketransformative on so many levels
and, you know, took usdifferent, different like
emotional spaces and challengesand physical locations, right,
(19:31):
and you just finished all that,right.
So it's just like, of course,there's like a like a adrenaline
, letdown, grief, like it's done.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:39):
This is you're in a new chapter of your
life, which is going to be crazy.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:44):
Yeah, I mean grad school's over, and
that's crazy to think about.
I can I've like I actually amDr Trumbull now.
It's not even like a well, in amonth and a half is it the
degree you've been conferred?
Yet I'm like no, I'm DrTrumbull.
That's weird.
I no longer am going to be likeevaluated all the time.
(20:04):
I'm never.
I'm no longer going to like beunderpaid, which is great.
You know.
That's like a really, reallyhuge, huge relief that the work
that I do will be compensatedappropriately.
Um, uh, yeah, I don't have to.
I don't have to scrounge orwhat like.
I can.
I can build a savings accountand a 401k and enter adulthood
(20:30):
and, um, start like buildingsomething with Jason.
So, this is being my last year,like before pregnancy.
I don't.
I don't know if that's, I don'tknow how that'll go, but um,
and now that's a new frontierthat you're looking at too.
I don't know if you want to sayanything about that, Cause I
know it's been heartbreaking,yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:49):
I mean, I'm kind of in a weird place today
and you know I haven't sharedthis on the podcast yet but, um,
we had been wanting a secondand it was already second kid
and it was already a grievingprocess that I couldn't get
pregnant.
It's not safe for me to getpregnant.
(21:10):
I probably could if I wanted to, but it's not safe because it
might bring my cancer back right, because my cancer feeds off of
hormones.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto have to do surrogacy and
that's going to require IVF.
So I had 22 eggs frozen fromwhen I divorced my ex-husband
(21:34):
and I went and got I'm surethere's like an episode where I
talk about you know, freezingand all that but I had 22 eggs
frozen and I was like, okay,good, that's that's, you know,
that's secure.
And so I went into chemo and allmy cancer treatment, um, being
(21:54):
like, okay, I know that chemo issupposed to actually like
really kill fertility and sowomen have to younger women have
to preserve their fertilitybefore going into chemo.
And I was like, oh, I'm good,I'm fine.
Well, I um I'm like, okay,finally finished with with all
(22:17):
the cancer treatment and let'sget started on this.
Um making the second.
And so I was just nervous and Isaid I want to do it in batches
, I'm going to thaw 14 eggsfirst and then the other eight
later, just in case.
And I had frozen them in a likeI was 34 and my husband and I
got pregnant after that.
So I was pretty confident,naturally, right, like I, I was
(22:38):
pretty confident that we're agood genetic match and my eggs
are okay or, you know, young.
And then I was shocked.
We were shocked to find outthat, you know, we went through
trying to fertilize those 14eggs and none of themproof
insurance policy meaning likethis is a way to guarantee that
(23:10):
you have another kid.
Um, I'm hearing now more andmore which I cannot believe,
this, like I can't believe howmuch information you get after a
tragedy, like no one tells youabout these things, but but I'm
hearing that more and morepeople are realizing that is not
a guarantee that, um, theymight say this to you when you
(23:32):
do it freeze your eggs, but itdoesn't really hit until later.
But when you freeze eggs andthen thaw them to try to make an
embryos out of them, um, thethought they a lot of them die
off.
Yeah, and I didn't know that,like they're, basically you're
freezing water bags, like you,basically, you know, and so it's
(23:53):
so, they're so delicate that ifthey thaw they might die and
not survive the thaw.
Meanwhile, it is a lot moresecure to freeze embryos.
But if you don't have a partnerright you, you don't, that
that's not an option for you.
So you know, 14 eggs arecompletely not not.
You know, like nothing came outof it.
I was devastated.
(24:14):
I was in Hawaii this summerwhen we got the news and I
remember just like just being inlike total shock, just sitting
there with Alex and it just itjust brought up all of the
feelings that I had about when I, when I went through
infertility with my firstmarriage, like you feel so
(24:34):
confident and so like, okay, I,you almost picture it like, okay
, I'm going to have a kid, I'mgoing to have a kid this time,
I'm going to get pregnant thistime, and then you get news that
that is not what happens.
Yeah, happened.
(25:15):
Not.
It wasn't just the freezing,like the thawing, it was just
like they just didn't come outright.
I still have those eight left,but then I'm trying to do IVF
right now, like I'm in themiddle of my shots and because
of chemo, I'm not respondingthat well.
So I'm I don't know how manyeggs I'm going to get, if I'm
going to get any, and I don'tknow what that means.
Like I I'm terrified of what ifsomething's wrong and those
eight are not going to happen?
Uh, I didn't think about whatit'd be like not to have a
(25:38):
second biological child.
You know we'll look into otheroptions and I might have to just
like sit with the possibilitythat there might be donor egg
situations or I don't know.
Like, but I'm at the end of myroad with fertility and I and
that is just like a horriblefeeling where this is it?
(25:59):
Like these eight eggs andwhatever I get out of me now are
my only chance of having asecond biological child.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:06):
Yeah, chance of having a second
biological child.
Yeah, I, yeah, I think that'sthe most.
Um, I don't.
I don't have the word likeagonizing part sometimes about
like fertility is that you getyour hopes to.
The rollercoaster is insane.
You get your hopes up, you, youthink, gosh, I've done the
(26:27):
responsible thing.
Responsible thing I froze myeggs.
22 is a lot of eggs like Iwouldn't have frozen more than
that I have 18, you know, and Iwas like, yeah, 18 will be good
for one kid, probably good fortwo kids, but attritionism, it's
monstrous and just knowing that, like your actual chances are,
(26:50):
you only have like anotherchance or two or something, is
like sitting with that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:54):
Yeah, that biological clock, yeah Like runs
out and yeah, that's just likea sobering reality.
It's just it's feels unfair.
I'm like angry at cancer fortaking this away from me.
I'm angry at like at myself fornot being like have being able
to tell the future and notfreezing a million more.
(27:17):
Right, but it, it is what it isand I just yeah.
So I got the news yesterdaythat I were not getting that
many follicles and we don't knowhow many eggs we're gonna get,
and I asked him like can I doanother round of this?
He was like I don't recommendthat, and so it just was like
this is it, this is this is theend.
(27:37):
So I just been like the pasttwo days.
I've just been like in not agreat mood no shit no shit.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:47):
I'm like I don't know how deeply you
want to go to this, because ifI mean fertility, we have done
episodes on it but it's um,we're like working in the
fertility clinic.
It's just like it's.
It's so agonizing, it's so itlike consumes all of your
attention.
It brings up so much of all ofyour attention.
(28:11):
It brings up so much of, oh youknow, as women, we often think
of ourselves as like futuremothers and that's like number
one role in life.
And what does it mean if wecan't have that?
And then, like you, have one,but you'd always dreamed of
having more, and everything thatbrings up and so many things
you just have to grieve and likecompromise on and get
comfortable with and all ofthose like I get angry every
time I see an instagram post.
(28:32):
That's like you know, jennifer,like whoever had a baby when
she was 43 and then whoever elsehad a baby when she was 45
you're not too old.
Like you don't have to worryabout it.
I'm like you, you do have toworry about it.
It sucks.
I want to have this, like youknow, power to the people, like
attitude, but I don't want tosee anybody like in your
(28:57):
position, or I might be in thisposition in a few years.
You know, because I'm startinglate and then like 18 eggs is
less than 22 and the att iscrazy.
And it's not.
It's the most expensive andshittiest insurance policy ever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:13):
Yeah yeah, those stories of, like you know,
camera diaz has like two kidsat 44.
I mean, first of all, like,what they don't say is that
donor eggs she probably, whoknows?
Yeah, donor eggs and an immenseamount of money.
Yeah, I mean surrogacy.
If it's not covered, it's likecan be hundreds of thousands of
(29:35):
dollars and it doesn't come like.
All of this fertility stuffdoesn't come without like
emotional and physical risks.
Right, it's like it's so sadand painful and although I'm so
grateful that we have thoseoptions, like my goodness, like
I'm so grateful we havefertility, but I fertility
treatments, but I, yeah, I'mkind of like I wish I wasn't so
(29:59):
cavalier about and wish I didn'ttake it so much for granted in
my twenties that like, oh, I'llhave a kid later, I'll focus on
my career.
Now I'm like I could spend allmy the rest of like, like you
know, gosh willing.
Like you know, my cancer, youknow, stays away, but I could
spend the next 30 years workingon my career.
I could start a new one rightnow.
It's not gonna be ideal, it'sgonna be hard or whatever, but I
(30:22):
have no more eggs after this.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:25):
Yeah right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:25):
Like that's different.
So I kind of wish that at leastyounger women knew that this
wasn't like just really thoughtabout it.
I really thought about itbefore they were out of options.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:40):
Yeah, I mean I can.
I can hear you doing the thingthat everyone does when they
feel out of control, which isblaming themselves.
I think you did everything youcould have that within reason to
do.
I mean, you actually gotmarried at a pretty young age.
You tried getting pregnantyears and years ago.
It didn't work.
You froze a bunch of eggs.
(31:00):
You met another partner.
You had, you know, you had achild.
You could not have seen cancercoming.
You had a child.
You could not have seen cancercoming.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:10):
You had your fertility, what seemed like
shored up, and this just plainsucks and it's like it's so
unfair that cancer keeps takingif anyone out there believes in
manifestation or is isparticularly skilled at spells,
magic spells or affirmations, orlike the secret or whatever as
we debunked or like laughed atin the episode before.
(31:32):
But now, if you believe in it,please wish me luck.
To have the second, and Iunderstand, I think it's I think
it is helpful to think about,like I think I actually took in
what you said a while ago whenyou talked about manifestation,
of thinking about what it feelslike, what that would feel like
(31:55):
to that you know, picturing,picturing having a second child
and what that feels like, andwhen I get out of it.
You know that's part of whatI'm trying to do, but also it
(32:16):
makes me comfortable, morecomfortable to say, you know, I
did not expect my family and myhaving a kid to turn out like
this.
Like I, I thought I wasn'tmarried to another person.
I, I didn't foresee any of this, um, and you know what happened
(32:36):
, happened.
So I, you know how I, I, I knowthat we want a second and,
however that comes, donor, egg,adoption, like you know, miracle
, something like I, I have to bemore, I have to be open to that
and not just be like.
Well, how are my folliclestomorrow?
You?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (32:56):
know, one of the best gifts I think
from my year at the fertilityclinic was I would see I would
have these patients and theywould.
They would talk about howmeaningless their lives would be
if they didn't have a kid or asecond kid.
And I had to be like.
I had to look at myself and belike I don't, I don't want to
feel that way, right, andtelling myself like imagining a
(33:25):
future where I don't have kidsor where I only have one kid and
figuring out how to be OK withthat.
Or you know, donor eggs orsomething like that.
If I chose to do that, yeah,because it really sucks to have
to do that in the moment.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:43):
Yeah, yeah, you don't know what you're going
to grieve.
Until you know it's too late.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:47):
So yeah , yeah, I'm just so sorry it's.
This is a situation where Ifeel like people can get
uncomfortable because they justwant to fix it and there's
nothing to fix and that's sohard.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:03):
Yeah, there's nothing to fix.
I, I just hate those moments.
Those moments Like it hit metwo days ago when I got my
ultrasound.
And you know, when I firststarted the cycle, they were
like, oh, okay, there's like.
You know, there's like sevenfollicles, we're good.
And then two days ago I couldsee the doctor, just almost like
consoling me, like she was like, oh, it's still early, yet
(34:28):
We'll, we'll see what the doctorwill call you later after
reviewing all the results, and Iwas like what's wrong?
She was like, oh, I just maybemaybe there's some I can't see
yet.
You know, she was like liketrying to make me feel better
and I was like, why why do youseem pitying?
Like why why do you look likethat?
And yeah, it's just, it's justa hard thing to swallow, it's
(34:53):
just like.
And I and I also, but I also atthe same time now I'm looking
at my son and I'm just like, ohmy gosh, like I am so, so
grateful I have, I am sograteful I had the opportunity
to carry, get pregnant,breastfeed, have a biological
child, literally all of thosethings I did not.
(35:15):
There was a good period of timewhere I was not sure that that
was in my future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:20):
So I you know I'd be heartbroken here, but
like I'm also very grateful, youknow, very grateful for what I
have.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:28):
Yeah, and that's good and it also kind
of sucks that you have to feellike it's okay to just feel bad.
I saw that a lot with likesecond time moms who were going
through fertility where theyfelt like they didn't deserve to
feel as bad as they did becausethey had one kid, like they
were one of the like quoteunquote lucky ones.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:49):
It's like it still sucks yeah, rigging, yeah,
yeah, now there's, there's uh,yeah, there's no way around it.
It's kind of well, we'll see,we'll see what happens.
Yeah, right, we'll see whathappens, but it's been, it's
been an interesting year.
Coming out of the cancer andlike I funnel a lot of my like
thoughts and energy into coolmind, which has been like also
(36:13):
like a very healing experiencein many ways, because I think
kind of it's different from youthat I you seem to always want
to, you know, look forward to beon your own and be your own
boss and not be like in aninstitution, and I love that.
(36:33):
I actually like crave that.
I have like weird obsessivedreams about summer camp, like
literally every dream, to thepoint where I'm like I'm like
reinforcing it, like I think I'mtalking about it so much that
every night I have a dream thatI'm like in a summer camp
program, like with other adultsand it's like in a hotel or a
(36:54):
camp or there's some like,there's some like insular,
contained community of peoplewith a certain time period.
That's like the theme of mydreams and it's because I think
it's a lot of things, but Ithink it's because, like they're
most most of my life.
Was that right.
Most of my life, most of yourlife, is school or like some
(37:14):
kind of cohort or community orprogram that when you're out in
the world, you're like I had ahard time being like what do I
do now?
Like what is the right way?
Like can anyone tell me theright way to build a business?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:28):
Can anyone, like I'm in a, I'm I'm
very much with you on Okay, well, I do want to be.
I do want to be alone in my ownboss and everything.
But that has more to do withlike social stuff.
But the the terror of being ina place where I've been told
what to do for my whole life NowI'm not like that scares the
shit out of me.
There's no grownups.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:49):
Yeah no, and I spent the past year or so.
I'm still doing this, like I'mstill looking for someone to
tell me what the right way to goabout this, and I'm
intentionally doing thingsuncharted right, like I could
easily just continue doingpractice and research like
theworn paths for psychologists.
But I have chosen to um, foundmy own, co-found my own company,
(38:11):
um incorporate AI, which no oneknows what's going on.
Um do like kind of an onlinecoaching community program,
which is also kind of a newconcept of mental health, and to
support loved ones likefamilies, partners and
caregivers of people strugglingwith mental health.
(38:32):
So it's not like the normal,the normal therapy patient.
It's like support around thetherapy patient.
So there's like so many levelsof me just not knowing what the
hell I'm doing and I've justbeen desperate to like.
At first I was like, oh, thestartup world, you know they're
(38:52):
all trying to get into theseaccelerators and VC funding and
let me figure out what that'sall about.
And I was like there's parts ofit that don't feel right and
their advice feels weird.
But I feel like now I'm tryingto please them or trying to fit
into what they want from me, andthen like the same thing over
and over again.
I'm like, oh no, they don'tknow what they're doing either,
(39:14):
and no one knows what they'redoing.
I'm alone, I am.
I'm like there's no summer camp.
I like I'm too old for summercamp now.
Like now I'm like on my own andthere's no grown up over me,
it's just me, you know.
Like it's terrifying, yeah, Imean I don't know where I was
going with that, but just likeit's.
(39:34):
It's been a weird, it's been aweird experience having to come
to terms with that.
Come to terms with, like, whatdo I want?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:42):
to terms with like what do I want?
I'm always amazed byentrepreneurs Like I just don't.
I just straight up.
I wouldn't know the first stepto take, like and yeah, I.
So whenever you, whenever youtext me like scared about this
ring, it's just about I'm likeyeah, I know, I don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:07):
I don't know what to say.
I would be.
No one knows.
That's a secret, no one knows.
It's just that certain peoplelike certain, like straight
white men, like the zuckerbergand, you know, adam newman, what
I'm learning is that they don'tknow more, they just like are
more comfortable acting likethey do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:15):
Guys kippy's obsessed with adam
newman right now.
I am obsessed, I've I spent.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:19):
Like my co-founder came in and hung out
for the summer, for like part ofthe summer, and we watched,
like the social network and thewe work founder adam newman,
like the documentaries and theshows, and then we also watched
a little of the you know, thesuper pumped, the uber ceo, and
it's just, it's fun, becauseit's just kind of like this like
(40:39):
vaudeville, like variety showof like hardcore narcissists
that just were like, yeah, I'mthe future.
You could get on board withthis vision or be left behind.
I am it.
And they, they are running onempty.
They have zero idea whatthey're doing.
They're just like shooting fromthe seat of their pants.
(40:59):
Like I just forget that markzuckerberg started Facebook
because he was just trying tomake a website rating women for
hotness in his school and thenstole the website idea from you
know other people and then wasjust like, yeah, well, I made it
better.
So you know, like I was like,oh, these, like gods among us,
(41:22):
are just like.
They just don't know.
No one knows what they're doing.
They just have confidence inthemselves and somehow
delusional confidence inthemselves and I'm like, okay,
here I go.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (41:32):
I gotta be like them, like the scam
artist, like them oh my god,scam owners seem so happy, you
know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:39):
They're just like yeah, I know what, I know
what to do, I know what's up.
Like you seem really happy withthat, whereas I'm like am I
doing it right, do I know?
I'm like doing I'm compulsivelysigning up for other clinical
trainings, even though we haveprobably the most clinical
training of all the people inthe world.
And that's that's me being likethe narcissist, trying to be
(42:04):
like the narcissism, like Ididn't know what to.
We know what we're doing whenit comes to psychology, and yet
I am right now finishing anothercertification process for a
different kind of clinical work.
Which one?
Why?
Craft For loved ones of peoplewith substance use?
Well, at least it's relevant.
Yeah, it's very relevant.
But, like everything I'mlearning, I'm like yeah, I know
(42:26):
this already, it's wrong with me.
So that's how I am this year.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:33):
Maybe if I'm just a little bit more
legit, if I just know a littlebit more then I'll have the
confidence to just go and killit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:39):
One day I'll be like finally, I've arrived at
age 40.
Phd, Anyway, hamster wheels, AmI right?
You are right.
The other thing I wanted tomention about this past year is
that something that I've learned?
First of all, I've like dove indeep into marketing and trying
(43:01):
to get into social media.
If anyone's listening, pleasego to Cool A mind on Instagram
and please follow me because I'mworking so hard as a 39 year
old cancer survivor trying tofigure out how to make reels.
Thank you very much.
People no, I'm not guiltingpeople.
I'm straight up bullying peopleinto following me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:21):
Okay, as a cancer survivor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:28):
Okay, yeah, that's a little there.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:29):
We go a little guilting yeah, you're
right, using all my methods.
If cancer's taken so much youcan, it can give this you can
follow me yeah, you follow me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:35):
Um, so I've mostly been learning social
media to kind of do markettesting and really get an idea
of what people want.
And how am I really?
This is my new skill I'm tryingto learn and obsess about how
do you distill what we know,like all of our knowledge?
How do we distill it to like a30 second reel where you have to
capture people's attention whenthey're brain rot, scrolling on
(43:58):
the bathroom through funnymemes, right, like that's
actually it's a really importantpart of marketing these days
(44:18):
and it's so.
It's actually such a hard skillthat I am trying to learn to
capture it to be like I have tomake you care about validation
of.
I'm just talking about like kindof making a reel out of like I
said it was like my, your POV,your husband's exploding,
exploding in anger, drinkingmore and going down alt right
(44:40):
YouTube channels and going downalt-right YouTube channels and I
didn't know that that was aderogatory term.
I'm such an idiot because I justgot that term from the women
who told me that this was a day,so I just wrote it and I got
like like that reel went viralbecause there were so many
people on opposite sides.
(45:00):
There were liberal women whowere being like like mad that I
wasn't more critical of these,of these men Right, because in
my caption I said something likewe got to support each other,
blah, blah, blah.
And they were like, how couldyou say that?
And then I got a lot ofconservative men who were like,
well, I would, I would alsodrink if I, if my wife, looked
like you or you.
(45:20):
Liberal women are the idiotswho are.
This is this is why I'mdepressed and like you know all
sorts of stuff.
And I was like, oh, this yearI've learned that men and women
do not like each other.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:33):
Yeah, yeah, I want to do.
I want to do an episode.
I read this book called thetragedy of heterosexuality and I
want to invite the author on tobe a guest, because this is one
of the points she makes.
She's's like what is up withheterosexuals?
You guys seem to hate eachother, like really hate each
other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:51):
Yeah, look on anything on on social media
which is like how everyone islearning about.
You know the social, you knowthe social vibe is like how do
you get rid of talks?
How do you?
How do you get rid of toxic?
How do you?
How do you spot the signs of atoxic man?
How do you break up with atoxic right Like spot the enemy
and get rid and annihilate them.
(46:12):
How do you basically get a highvalue man to want me?
Right it's?
It's like this competitive,hostile view of dating and
partnership and men and womennow are struggling with mental
health issues completely alone.
Right, I feel bad for how manymen have like written hate
(46:33):
comments on my on my instagram.
But but like legitimately sayinglike I am struggling, I'm
depressed, I'm angry, I feellike used and I feel like women
just blame me for it, and I'mlike, yeah, that sucks, like
that.
But then when I say that like,oh, it sucks, then I get a bunch
(46:54):
of women's like how dare youcondone abusive men?
And I'm like, oh my God, likecan't win, like it's just.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:04):
I mean, that's just, that's just
something that really shocked meI mean you, because you had
that earlier post and we'vetalked about it on this podcast,
about that post, that where youtalked about all right, but now
you have a second post thatliterally just says like men are
struggling, this is so sad, weneed to help each other.
And the comments on that theyweren't even against you this
time, they were just againsteach.
It was like men and womenwarring in the comments.
(47:26):
I was like our society isburning down.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:29):
Yeah, I'm going to link to those posts on
this episode, so in the shownotes.
But yeah, the comments werelike all.
No one was like women have noempathy.
I was like all of them and likeit's men's fault that they're
depressed, let them fix it.
They messed up our society.
(47:51):
I'm like I get that point andalso, like you know, we would
want them to help us, right,it's just?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:57):
it just is so sad.
Which men did this and set uptheir society and set up
patriarchy, like the ones thatare born today, like look, I
mean, everybody participates inpatriarchy and, yes, it causes
lots of problems.
It also causes problems for men, but we can't say that because
men set up a system that the menthat exist within it are like
(48:20):
like like jason, my partner didnot design patriarchy, alex,
your husband did not designpatriarchy Like we can't be like
, well, fuck them because theydesigned patriarchy.
It's like no, they didn't.
They were born into the systemand then participated in it to
the extent that, like, they wereraised within it.
Right, like all of our culturalnorms and values, they keep
(48:42):
constructing patriarchy as itgoes along.
But no individual man was thedesigner and architect of
patriarchy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:51):
Yeah, but you could say that a lot of them
benefit from it, and that's alsojust like silently, and that's
that's part of participating it.
Yeah, and like yes, we don'tknow who to point the finger and
say you're depressed, is yourfault, right, and it's like and
even so, even if, like, like youknow, our husbands or our
partners are like the ones whomade patriarchy, once made
(49:13):
patriarchy, like, made thehandmaid's tale and you know
what is it?
Galliard, galliard, galliard.
Yeah, they made whatever like,what are we gonna do?
Do Like I just it's my point.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (49:27):
It's my point.
Saying that they designedpatriarchy is not a helpful
comment.
So they designed patriarchy, sothey should suffer.
That's not a helpful comment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:34):
Right, and what do we do about it?
Like I don't, like we talkedabout another episode that
humiliating each other is notthe way right.
We just get angry at each other, like being like men and their
toxicity, and I hate them andall of you guys need to feel sad
about that.
I mean, I understand that thattrauma would lead to those
feelings, but then all the menare like screw you, you know.
(49:56):
Then they get mad, right, soit's like I don't think that's
effective to fight oppressionwith more oppression.
Right, like I don't, I don'tknow I'm, you know I'm waiting
to get heat for this too, but Ijust think I and I literally I
am really in a bind here becausewe say on this podcast and it's
(50:21):
truly what we believe that ourloved ones, our social network,
have great impact on our mentalhealth.
Right, like if my husband weremean to me or didn't validate me
or, you know, was like whatever, didn't support me, I would be
depressed.
But then also to say that he'snot responsible for my mental
(50:42):
health right, and to tell, well,you know, in Kula Mind, we're
helping loved ones know whatskill like, get skills and
education to support theirpartners, let's say, with
depression or mental healthissues right.
So if I'm helping, let's say,women whose husbands have an
alcohol problem, and I sayyou're not responsible for their
drinking, it is not your fault.
(51:04):
You're not the only ones to fixit.
And yet here are skills tosupport them.
Yeah, I know, it's like it's,it's a nuance like it makes
sense to me, but it's a nuancething that's hard to communicate
, because once you say, hey, ifyou validate their emotions they
might be less angry, but thenyou're also not responsible for
their anger.
(51:25):
Tricky right, cause and effectis really confusing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:28):
Yeah, no, I mean a thousand percent.
The sense of responsibility inrelationships gets played with
by both partners too.
Like look, I mean, if Jasonwere a dick to me, it's not.
Like I would say to him youknow what, it's totally fine
because it's my responsibility.
I would say to him you knowwhat, it's totally fine because
it's my responsibility to not beaffected by what you say.
So you do, you and I.
(51:51):
My responsibility is entirely.
My mental is entirely sorry.
My mental health is entirely myresponsibility.
But also like I was made to beresponsible for a partner's
mental health and that was notfair either.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:04):
Yeah, and I think that I think the challenge
is that we are trying to as asociety, we're moving towards
polarization and black and whitethinking.
Yeah, I'm totally at fault foreveryone's problems, or it's
your fault right, you're toxic.
I'm toxic, you who's toxic?
There's's one toxic person, butactually it's like way more
(52:27):
nuance than that.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:29):
Yeah, and it's hard to talk about that
that we like a toxic dynamichas two sides to it, right, and
yeah, and one person, one personin that dynamic can be lovely
and also can still be aparticipant in what makes it
toxic.
So I don't know, it's, it'stough, um, so anything you are
(52:53):
looking forward to exploring inseason six?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:57):
lots of stuff .
Um, I'm excited to explore theoutcome of our manifestation
that we did last true episode.
Are you going to feelfinancially secure and am I
going to feel like cool mind isgrowing and you guys can
directly affect that by?
But anyway, um, I'm excited.
(53:18):
We, you know, we haven't delvedas much into alternative um
treatments for mental healththat are emerging, like there's
a lot of exciting new things inAI and psychiatry and like
psychedelics and ketamine andyou know, just like all these
different forms of mental healthtreatment, like supplements and
gut health, and I'm, I'm, I'mjust and there's some disorders
(53:42):
we haven't covered yet.
Like we haven't really talkedabout schizophrenia yet.
Yeah, so, yeah, a lot of coolstuff we could talk about.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:50):
So I'm excited to talk about AI because
of course, I'm terrified thatit'll take away my career, but
it's that conversation seems tobe like evolving in really
interesting ways and you've beeninvolved in that conversation
in ways that I haven't so loveto hear from you about that.
It is so funny that we stillhaven't done a psychiatry
(54:11):
episode.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:11):
We've talked about it for literal years.
Um, we just, we've just beenreally picky about the who we
want us to get.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (54:15):
Like we could probably you know there's
a lot of psychiatrists, youknow, but we were like, oh, we
have to get the right person, sowe'll find someone that we like
a lot.
Yeah, but please, if you guyshave suggestions, any kind of
curiosities, we've done so manyepisodes based off of your
questions and suggestions, sovery much value that and yeah, I
(54:38):
think I think that's it maybefor for today.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:42):
Yeah, if you, if you do have suggestions,
there's at the top of the shownotes.
There's like send us a text,you click that and send us a
message.
That feature doesn't let usrespond.
So if you want us to respond,email um kibby k-i-b-b-y at
coolamindcom k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom.
Or go to um jacqueline'sinstagram at trombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:04):
I might change it to at Dr Trumbelina,
just because it makes me lookgood.
Yeah, one of those two.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:11):
Fully.
Get in the show notes, so youcan get in contact anyway.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:14):
Alright , guys, we'll see you all in
about a month and a half forseason six.
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to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
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(55:37):
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(55:57):
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(56:19):
such approval or endorsement.
Thank you.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:08):
Hey, little helpers.
It's Dr Kibby here.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I wanted to tell you
how I could help you navigatethe mental health or addiction
struggles of the people you love.
KulaMind is the online coachingplatform and community that I
built to support you in themoment when you need it the most
, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs or
setting boundaries, even ifyou're just curious and want to
(00:28):
chat about it.
Book a free call with me bygoing to the link in the show
notes or going to coolamindcomK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get
started.
Thank you, and enjoy the show.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:40):
Hi Little Helpers, Welcome to our
wrap-up episode.
We are wrapping up season fiveof A Little Help for our friends
, going on about a month and ahalf of a break, and we just
like to do these retrospectiveswhere we look back at what we've
learned this year and also,like personal stuff, the changes
that have happened over thelast year, which are numerous.
(01:03):
So, kippy, what's on your mindfrom the last year?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:08):
I mean, we just did a juicy episode on your
whole grad school experienceand that's going to be released
in the beginning of season six,so check that out.
I'm like, oh, like, basicallylike we have to comb through to
make sure that it is everythingin there is kosher.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:27):
so there's a lot of stuff in there
too.
It's a grad school episode,could be um yeah.
I mean, I also like aboutthings about my own life.
So talking to you on that gradschool episode, that um shock
and terrify me so really, oh man, I was.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:44):
I thought it would be like relieving, I guess
, like we'll talk after okay,okay, um.
so we started the season lastyear, 2024, in October.
I was just finishing my cancertreatment and getting um surgery
and it like because, likesettling into being a CEO and co
(02:09):
founder of a company and cofounding the cool of mine
community and the app, and goingthrough, like after the trauma
of cancer, kind of realizinglike like it's funny, going
through cancer, you're insurvive, like literally survival
mode.
(02:29):
So you're just going throughlike okay, I have to get this
treatment and that treatment,this treatment, but then I feel
like the emotional effects of itcame out afterwards.
So I actually think thatprobably this season, october to
now, was emotionally probablyone of the harder years that I
remember.
So I I kind of like dug into myown trauma and tried to
(02:51):
understand that and digest thata little bit more, um, and I
think it reflected in ourepisodes on, you know, toxic
relationships and familydynamics and emotional
immaturity and of coursenarcissism.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (03:07):
Yeah, so we um yeah you have more
personal than ever this year,and a lot of people responded
really powerfully to it too.
I think it was an episode theself-hatred episode that meant a
lot to people and a lot offeedback about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:24):
Yeah, that was really scary to do because I
was in a phase where I was likespiraling that day.
I was triggered and kind oflike awash with, like oh, I
realized that all the thingsthat I've dealt with as a kid,
it's funny.
Trauma is really funny,especially childhood trauma.
Because you know itintellectually.
You're like, oh God, mychildhood was so, so hard and I
(03:46):
know I have all these weirdsymptoms because of it.
Like I'm, I'm like reallyinsecure in relationships or
blah, blah, blah.
Right, you, you might knowintellectually, but there are
some times in therapy or momentsof insight where you're like,
oh, my god, like I went throughtrauma, like it didn't, and it
(04:06):
clicked for me only after ohyeah, because I got into an
argument with my mom after I gotmy last surgery, my most major
surgery, when I was one of themost vulnerable times in my life
, and it just brought up allthis, all these old memories.
And then I was so stupid that Iwent to a clinical training
about like how to work withchildren who were abused as
(04:32):
children and like family therapy, training of like, like
physical, sexual, all sorts ofviolence, and so sitting there
for two days hearing stories ofkids going through trauma
brought up some of my trauma andI was like fully like, oh my
God, like I.
I was one of those kids, right,so that was just a whole that
(04:56):
was fun.
So the self hatred episode Iwas like spinning and we're.
I don't forgot what we're goingto talk about that day.
But we decided to pivot and saylike, let me, let's just talk
about this, let's talk aboutwhat I'm going through and that
was really crazy, do you feel?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:11):
I mean, it has been a journey this year
of like really kind of um,uncovering the emotional
memories and realizing theimpact that that trauma has had
on you and your identity and howyou feel about yourself, and
then kind of saying for thefirst time that you deal with
self-hatred and it isinteresting because we had a
(05:32):
self-hatred expert on beforethat and then suddenly you're
like wait, this is me.
Do you feel differently today?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:43):
I would like to say that I am all cured, like
now that I see it and forgivenmyself and given myself grace
and done all the therapy things.
But it goes in and out.
I think that the biggest changenow is that my inner workings,
like all my neuroses that I haveon a daily basis, like trying
(06:06):
to work really, really hard on abig, impossible professional
goal and beating myself up overit, like why am I not good
enough, why I'm so behind otherpeople to do better, like I'm
realizing how much of that islike a constant soundtrack in my
mind and I think I knew that,that.
But I'm like watching it on adaily basis.
(06:29):
So I think I'm more aware of itand more aware of like the
gravity of it.
I think, like I think I was soattached to and like secure in
my coping mechanisms of beingstrong and cure in my coping
mechanisms of being strong andyou know self-sufficient and
(06:49):
professionally you know strongthat like having a kid and
cancer stripped all that away sohard that I was like well, I
was really had to confront allof these.
You know the effects of traumaand I don't, I don't, I can't
say that I'm like cured.
Now I struggle in on a dailybasis.
But I'm much more aware of itnow, in a new way, like I've
(07:11):
taken a step back and I've beenlike, oh, I have been wearing
orange goggles for the past 39years.
I took off the goggles or threwthem away, but I could see that
I know that the world is notorange anymore.
So yeah, so I'm at like a stageof healing.
That's like I I I've beengrieving it more lately and
(07:34):
seeing it for what it is.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:35):
So I mean, I would be shocked if you
were like I love myself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:39):
Everything is great, I think seeing me too,
man, I'm trying to get therewith manifestation right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:52):
The last episode of like, like
thinking my way out of my trauma.
I'm lovable, I'm good enough.
I think seeing the goggles iswhere I mean I would consider
that a massive win if I were atherapist right and my patients
had to be able to say, like,this isn't automatic, this isn't
reality.
This is an automatic reality.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:06):
I still buy into it a lot, but I can see why
and I can see what's going onand I can at least begin to
question it yeah it, there is ait's funny, we're just talking
to our friend about this likethere is a sadness and a bummer
like a resignation when you seethat, because I think this we
get into these like copingmechanisms, these like hamster
(08:27):
wheels of like here is how Icompensate for my poor wound.
Right, I do this thing, I'm goodat school, I chase this, I do
that like I have this addiction.
And when you see it for what itis, as a coping mechanism of
like, you know just somethingthat's always there.
(08:48):
There is this bummer of like oh, this hamster wheel doesn't go
anywhere, this is just a hamsterwheel.
I thought this was like theroad, like my marathon to like
across the country, but it'sliterally just a hamster wheel,
just a hamster wheel.
Yeah, and I'll get off this one, I'll get on another one.
So it's just like seeing it forwhat it is kind of takes the
(09:11):
hope away that the hamster,running on a hamster wheel, will
actually get you forward.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:15):
I mean yeah, but yeah, I mean I see.
So I see so many clients who,like you know, beat up on
themselves and I think the hopeis that and I do with body image
too, you know I think the hopeis that, like, if they punish
themselves enough and, you know,put enough attention on the
problem, then like that'llmotivate them to change things.
(09:35):
And it doesn't seem to work,and so at least understanding
like I think this is kind of afaulty process, it's not, it's
actually not going to take metowards my dreams is at least
the first major step, like thefirst step that has any promise
of changing things.
But it is hard to take thatnext step.
Yes, I still beat myself up,but so do you yeah, it's like,
(09:57):
well then, what am I gonna get?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:58):
on another, like I'm gonna run somewhere
else.
Like, yeah, it's hard, it'shard to, yeah, it's hard to let
go because also it's like it'shard, it's hard to yeah, it's
hard to let go because also it'slike it's such a part of your
identity.
Right, like I'm on this hamsterwheel and I'm a person who runs
on this hamster wheel and you,you don't know what, what else
you're going to do.
Right, you're going to relax.
Are you going to forgiveyourself?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:20):
Like yeah, yeah, I mean accepting.
Yeah, I mean accepting right,accepting my.
My body feels like that wouldnever somehow motivate me to
like work out more, have ahealthier.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:39):
To be like I'm beautiful no matter what, no
matter what shape and size I am, or by the way.
Do you feel like you are moreconcerned with your body image
these days, or are you morevocal about it, or is this like
has always been?
The case, because we've beentalking about it more lately,
like you know explicitly, but Iwas wondering if this is a
(11:00):
change for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (11:02):
It's because of the weight gain.
I mean for the weight gain meanbefore the weight gain, I was
still obsessed with my body, butit was more about my body shape
than weight.
I I would have like targetareas of my body that I was
obsessed with um, and then lipotook care of that in some ways.
Um, and now it's more aboutlike, whether the weight has
(11:22):
gone to my face and destroyed myface, which I was always quite
fond of.
I actually never hadinsecurities with my face before
um, but yeah, I think, I thinkthat having my weight before I
had like a a thing that I hated,but having my weight feel like
it's taken out of my control Idon't know if that was was the
(11:46):
SSRI, or if that was age, youknow, or if I changed behavior
that that really freaked me outand kind of made me obsessive as
well.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:55):
Well, you had internship and you had a year
in New York, something that youwere yearning for in some ways,
yearning for being at Duke andbeing at North and being in
North Carolina.
You're like, oh, there was apart of you that like missed it
(12:17):
here.
Yeah, you got to be here andyou got, you know, internship.
So what was that?
What was that like for you?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (12:25):
Yeah, I'm trying to kind of process it
.
I mean, I think what I firstnoticed when I got to New York
was how low my tolerance for ithad gotten.
I started having, like myparents visited me in my first
like week there or something,and I remember we went to the
(12:46):
MoMA and I was like I cannothandle this.
Like the crowds are driving menuts.
I was like I was having to dopaced breathing.
I was like I was.
I was angry, like I was really.
My nerves were really, reallyfrayed.
Um, and then you let me stay inyour awesome place for a couple
of months and that wasmiraculous, cause it was like a
(13:09):
great area of town and it wasjust nice.
And then I like moved into myreal apartment and it just the
area sucked and like the, it wasreally convenient subway wise.
That was why it was chosen.
Um, but you know, like I'm ifanybody's on YouTube, like you
can only see a little tiny bitof my bedroom, but my house is
(13:29):
like palatial and that's notbecause Jace and I are rich,
that's because we live in NorthCarolina and because I'm
comparing it to my New Yorkapartment, I just have way, way
lower tolerance for thediscomforts of New York and that
really wore on me and I was.
I was happy in a way because Ididn't want to fall back in love
of New York and that reallywore on me and I was.
I was happy in a way because Ididn't want to fall back in love
with New York, but I alsodidn't want to fall out of love
(13:51):
with New York and I was reallykind of teetering that line and
I think I basically achievedthat, where I'm like I don't
think I could survive in NewYork unless I had a ton of money
and could like buy myself spaceand never have to leave in the
winter, like never have to gooutside.
But I still love New York, youknow, and I felt this year
(14:14):
really healed me in a waybecause, as we'll talk about in
the grad school episode thatyou'll have to listen to in a
month and a half, I did not feelcomfortable at Duke.
I immediately when I steppedfoot in North Carolina, I was
like I am not meant to be here,like nobody here gets me.
I feel like I'm too much.
I feel like I'm too loud.
I need to tone myself down.
Oh no, I've put myself down toomuch.
(14:35):
Now people think I'm likeinsecure and quiet and weird and
it's just, it was this fiveyears of feeling uncalibrated?
And then I step into New Yorkand I'm like, oh there, I am.
Like people like me again.
I can be who I want to be.
I can present the way Iactually am.
I had like an amazing trainingdirector at my internship site
(14:56):
who was also my PTSD supervisorand she like, literally, if I
think about her for more thanthree seconds I'll choke up,
like she just like reallyrescued my self-esteem and liked
me.
She liked me, she admired me,she didn't think I was a walking
liability.
(15:17):
She, you know, and like I'm not, I don't necessarily want to
compare her to like like myadvisor got the person that
needed to be sculpted for fiveyears, you know.
So he got like a, an unformedmass of clay and he had to like
he had a harder job of it thanshe did.
So I'm I'm not trying to like,do a contrast there, but you
(15:37):
know she got more of a finishedproduct, but one that had had
her self-esteem like, but onethat had had her self-esteem
like kind of not destroyed,certainly, but hurt, you know,
over a long time, not by Dukeonly, but like by the internet.
(15:58):
And I just, you know, I just Iwould walk into her office and
feel like I'm going to be likeadmired and accepted and just
fundamentally liked for who I amand the work that I do and that
meant the world to me, um, andthat's just how I felt, you know
, at my internship site for ayear, like the patient
population was tough, the Bronx,va is, I mean, just like
(16:18):
uncomfortable place in variousways, um, but you know it was
like really, really what Ineeded, various ways, um, but
you know, it was like really,really what I needed.
And I, just I, you know, mostof my like 80% probably of my
friends live in New York city,so I was back into my community,
I was, you know, I was justrescued in certain ways.
(16:38):
So that was really needed, sothat was really needed.
And now I'm glad to be in warmweather again and my big house
with my boyfriend, except notreally because I'm going to
Africa tomorrow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:54):
It's going to be so cool.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (16:59):
What are you going to do in Africa?
I'm literally going for fiveweeks with just a backpack and a
sleeping bag, so I I'm gonna beon safari for 17 days actually.
Then I'll be doing anothersafari for three days, so more
like 20 days of camping and um,that is gonna be through
zimbabwe and botswana and southafrica, and then I'm gonna be
(17:20):
volunteering at a conservationin namibia and that'll be the
second safari, also goingthrough the Namib desert, and
I'm it's going to be awesome.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:29):
It's going to be awesome.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (17:30):
But it's like, oh my God, like when
you have to actually go and dosomething, epic, it's makes you
scared the day before.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:37):
Write a journal.
Write a journal Because, like Iwas just thinking that we
should do some episodes when youcome back about, you know,
traveling to such a differentplace.
You know so many things thatcould come up.
But like, write a journal, youknow, like actually physically
get a little journal and writedown where you went.
You know what was like, becauseyou're going to forget all the
day-to-day stuff and you'regoing to look back on that and
(17:57):
wish you had, like, like wheredid I eat on that Tuesday?
Or like what, what?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (18:03):
yeah, what was it like when I went to
this store or whatever you knowyeah, I mean my, my dream
growing up was to be a zoologistor like a conservationist.
So I just I want to getpregnant in a year.
So I wanted a chance tovolunteer on a conservation at
least one time in my life beforeI had kids.
Um, actually, funny enough, mytraining director she has a 12
(18:25):
year old or 13 year old and theylike go volunteer on
conservations a lot together.
So I'm like maybe, maybe I'lldo it again in my future.
But yeah, um, it's a big yearand you know, new York kind of
reseduced me a little bit in theend.
There, you know, it was likebeautiful weather and that's it
(18:45):
really.
That's all it takes.
Yeah, I, my first day back, Iwas a little dissociated and sad
and I didn't want to show Jasonthat I was sad, because I just
wanted him to experience mebeing happy to see him again.
I was, but I was also grievingsomething.
So there's that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:07):
Yeah, I mean you just you just closed out a
huge chapter in your life, likeit, just like it flies by, but
it was also like a better partof a decade.
You know we're we weredifferent people when we started
grad school and and all thisjourney becoming psychologists,
like it really was liketransformative on so many levels
and, you know, took usdifferent, different like
emotional spaces and challengesand physical locations, right,
(19:31):
and you just finished all that,right.
So it's just like, of course,there's like a like a adrenaline
, letdown, grief, like it's done.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:39):
This is you're in a new chapter of your
life, which is going to be crazy.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:44):
Yeah, I mean grad school's over, and
that's crazy to think about.
I can I've like I actually amDr Trumbull now.
It's not even like a well, in amonth and a half is it the
degree you've been conferred?
Yet I'm like no, I'm DrTrumbull.
That's weird.
I no longer am going to be likeevaluated all the time.
(20:04):
I'm never.
I'm no longer going to like beunderpaid, which is great.
You know.
That's like a really, reallyhuge, huge relief that the work
that I do will be compensatedappropriately.
Um, uh, yeah, I don't have to.
I don't have to scrounge orwhat like.
I can.
I can build a savings accountand a 401k and enter adulthood
(20:30):
and, um, start like buildingsomething with Jason.
So, this is being my last year,like before pregnancy.
I don't.
I don't know if that's, I don'tknow how that'll go, but um,
and now that's a new frontierthat you're looking at too.
I don't know if you want to sayanything about that, Cause I
know it's been heartbreaking,yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:49):
I mean, I'm kind of in a weird place today
and you know I haven't sharedthis on the podcast yet but, um,
we had been wanting a secondand it was already second kid
and it was already a grievingprocess that I couldn't get
pregnant.
It's not safe for me to getpregnant.
(21:10):
I probably could if I wanted to, but it's not safe because it
might bring my cancer back right, because my cancer feeds off of
hormones.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto have to do surrogacy and
that's going to require IVF.
So I had 22 eggs frozen fromwhen I divorced my ex-husband
(21:34):
and I went and got I'm surethere's like an episode where I
talk about you know, freezingand all that but I had 22 eggs
frozen and I was like, okay,good, that's that's, you know,
that's secure.
And so I went into chemo and allmy cancer treatment, um, being
(21:54):
like, okay, I know that chemo issupposed to actually like
really kill fertility and sowomen have to younger women have
to preserve their fertilitybefore going into chemo.
And I was like, oh, I'm good,I'm fine.
Well, I um I'm like, okay,finally finished with with all
(22:17):
the cancer treatment and let'sget started on this.
Um making the second.
And so I was just nervous and Isaid I want to do it in batches
, I'm going to thaw 14 eggsfirst and then the other eight
later, just in case.
And I had frozen them in a likeI was 34 and my husband and I
got pregnant after that.
So I was pretty confident,naturally, right, like I, I was
(22:38):
pretty confident that we're agood genetic match and my eggs
are okay or, you know, young.
And then I was shocked.
We were shocked to find outthat, you know, we went through
trying to fertilize those 14eggs and none of themproof
insurance policy meaning likethis is a way to guarantee that
(23:10):
you have another kid.
Um, I'm hearing now more andmore which I cannot believe,
this, like I can't believe howmuch information you get after a
tragedy, like no one tells youabout these things, but but I'm
hearing that more and morepeople are realizing that is not
a guarantee that, um, theymight say this to you when you
(23:32):
do it freeze your eggs, but itdoesn't really hit until later.
But when you freeze eggs andthen thaw them to try to make an
embryos out of them, um, thethought they a lot of them die
off.
Yeah, and I didn't know that,like they're, basically you're
freezing water bags, like you,basically, you know, and so it's
(23:53):
so, they're so delicate that ifthey thaw they might die and
not survive the thaw.
Meanwhile, it is a lot moresecure to freeze embryos.
But if you don't have a partnerright you, you don't, that
that's not an option for you.
So you know, 14 eggs arecompletely not not.
You know, like nothing came outof it.
I was devastated.
(24:14):
I was in Hawaii this summerwhen we got the news and I
remember just like just being inlike total shock, just sitting
there with Alex and it just itjust brought up all of the
feelings that I had about when I, when I went through
infertility with my firstmarriage, like you feel so
(24:34):
confident and so like, okay, I,you almost picture it like, okay
, I'm going to have a kid, I'mgoing to have a kid this time,
I'm going to get pregnant thistime, and then you get news that
that is not what happens.
Yeah, happened.
(25:15):
Not.
It wasn't just the freezing,like the thawing, it was just
like they just didn't come outright.
I still have those eight left,but then I'm trying to do IVF
right now, like I'm in themiddle of my shots and because
of chemo, I'm not respondingthat well.
So I'm I don't know how manyeggs I'm going to get, if I'm
going to get any, and I don'tknow what that means.
Like I I'm terrified of what ifsomething's wrong and those
eight are not going to happen?
Uh, I didn't think about whatit'd be like not to have a
(25:38):
second biological child.
You know we'll look into otheroptions and I might have to just
like sit with the possibilitythat there might be donor egg
situations or I don't know.
Like, but I'm at the end of myroad with fertility and I and
that is just like a horriblefeeling where this is it?
(25:59):
Like these eight eggs andwhatever I get out of me now are
my only chance of having asecond biological child.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:06):
Yeah, chance of having a second
biological child.
Yeah, I, yeah, I think that'sthe most.
Um, I don't.
I don't have the word likeagonizing part sometimes about
like fertility is that you getyour hopes to.
The rollercoaster is insane.
You get your hopes up, you, youthink, gosh, I've done the
(26:27):
responsible thing.
Responsible thing I froze myeggs.
22 is a lot of eggs like Iwouldn't have frozen more than
that I have 18, you know, and Iwas like, yeah, 18 will be good
for one kid, probably good fortwo kids, but attritionism, it's
monstrous and just knowing that, like your actual chances are,
(26:50):
you only have like anotherchance or two or something, is
like sitting with that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:54):
Yeah, that biological clock, yeah Like runs
out and yeah, that's just likea sobering reality.
It's just it's feels unfair.
I'm like angry at cancer fortaking this away from me.
I'm angry at like at myself fornot being like have being able
to tell the future and notfreezing a million more.
(27:17):
Right, but it, it is what it isand I just yeah.
So I got the news yesterdaythat I were not getting that
many follicles and we don't knowhow many eggs we're gonna get,
and I asked him like can I doanother round of this?
He was like I don't recommendthat, and so it just was like
this is it, this is this is theend.
(27:37):
So I just been like the pasttwo days.
I've just been like in not agreat mood no shit no shit.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (27:47):
I'm like I don't know how deeply you
want to go to this, because ifI mean fertility, we have done
episodes on it but it's um,we're like working in the
fertility clinic.
It's just like it's.
It's so agonizing, it's so itlike consumes all of your
attention.
It brings up so much of all ofyour attention.
(28:11):
It brings up so much of, oh youknow, as women, we often think
of ourselves as like futuremothers and that's like number
one role in life.
And what does it mean if wecan't have that?
And then, like you, have one,but you'd always dreamed of
having more, and everything thatbrings up and so many things
you just have to grieve and likecompromise on and get
comfortable with and all ofthose like I get angry every
time I see an instagram post.
(28:32):
That's like you know, jennifer,like whoever had a baby when
she was 43 and then whoever elsehad a baby when she was 45
you're not too old.
Like you don't have to worryabout it.
I'm like you, you do have toworry about it.
It sucks.
I want to have this, like youknow, power to the people, like
attitude, but I don't want tosee anybody like in your
(28:57):
position, or I might be in thisposition in a few years.
You know, because I'm startinglate and then like 18 eggs is
less than 22 and the att iscrazy.
And it's not.
It's the most expensive andshittiest insurance policy ever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:13):
Yeah yeah, those stories of, like you know,
camera diaz has like two kidsat 44.
I mean, first of all, like,what they don't say is that
donor eggs she probably, whoknows?
Yeah, donor eggs and an immenseamount of money.
Yeah, I mean surrogacy.
If it's not covered, it's likecan be hundreds of thousands of
(29:35):
dollars and it doesn't come like.
All of this fertility stuffdoesn't come without like
emotional and physical risks.
Right, it's like it's so sadand painful and although I'm so
grateful that we have thoseoptions, like my goodness, like
I'm so grateful we havefertility, but I fertility
treatments, but I, yeah, I'mkind of like I wish I wasn't so
(29:59):
cavalier about and wish I didn'ttake it so much for granted in
my twenties that like, oh, I'llhave a kid later, I'll focus on
my career.
Now I'm like I could spend allmy the rest of like, like you
know, gosh willing.
Like you know, my cancer, youknow, stays away, but I could
spend the next 30 years workingon my career.
I could start a new one rightnow.
It's not gonna be ideal, it'sgonna be hard or whatever, but I
(30:22):
have no more eggs after this.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:25):
Yeah right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:25):
Like that's different.
So I kind of wish that at leastyounger women knew that this
wasn't like just really thoughtabout it.
I really thought about itbefore they were out of options.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:40):
Yeah, I mean I can.
I can hear you doing the thingthat everyone does when they
feel out of control, which isblaming themselves.
I think you did everything youcould have that within reason to
do.
I mean, you actually gotmarried at a pretty young age.
You tried getting pregnantyears and years ago.
It didn't work.
You froze a bunch of eggs.
(31:00):
You met another partner.
You had, you know, you had achild.
You could not have seen cancercoming.
You had a child.
You could not have seen cancercoming.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:10):
You had your fertility, what seemed like
shored up, and this just plainsucks and it's like it's so
unfair that cancer keeps takingif anyone out there believes in
manifestation or is isparticularly skilled at spells,
magic spells or affirmations, orlike the secret or whatever as
we debunked or like laughed atin the episode before.
(31:32):
But now, if you believe in it,please wish me luck.
To have the second, and Iunderstand, I think it's I think
it is helpful to think about,like I think I actually took in
what you said a while ago whenyou talked about manifestation,
of thinking about what it feelslike, what that would feel like
(31:55):
to that you know, picturing,picturing having a second child
and what that feels like, andwhen I get out of it.
You know that's part of whatI'm trying to do, but also it
(32:16):
makes me comfortable, morecomfortable to say, you know, I
did not expect my family and myhaving a kid to turn out like
this.
Like I, I thought I wasn'tmarried to another person.
I, I didn't foresee any of this, um, and you know what happened
(32:36):
, happened.
So I, you know how I, I, I knowthat we want a second and,
however that comes, donor, egg,adoption, like you know, miracle
, something like I, I have to bemore, I have to be open to that
and not just be like.
Well, how are my folliclestomorrow?
You?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (32:56):
know, one of the best gifts I think
from my year at the fertilityclinic was I would see I would
have these patients and theywould.
They would talk about howmeaningless their lives would be
if they didn't have a kid or asecond kid.
And I had to be like.
I had to look at myself and belike I don't, I don't want to
feel that way, right, andtelling myself like imagining a
(33:25):
future where I don't have kidsor where I only have one kid and
figuring out how to be OK withthat.
Or you know, donor eggs orsomething like that.
If I chose to do that, yeah,because it really sucks to have
to do that in the moment.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:43):
Yeah, yeah, you don't know what you're going
to grieve.
Until you know it's too late.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:47):
So yeah , yeah, I'm just so sorry it's.
This is a situation where Ifeel like people can get
uncomfortable because they justwant to fix it and there's
nothing to fix and that's sohard.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:03):
Yeah, there's nothing to fix.
I, I just hate those moments.
Those moments Like it hit metwo days ago when I got my
ultrasound.
And you know, when I firststarted the cycle, they were
like, oh, okay, there's like.
You know, there's like sevenfollicles, we're good.
And then two days ago I couldsee the doctor, just almost like
consoling me, like she was like, oh, it's still early, yet
(34:28):
We'll, we'll see what the doctorwill call you later after
reviewing all the results, and Iwas like what's wrong?
She was like, oh, I just maybemaybe there's some I can't see
yet.
You know, she was like liketrying to make me feel better
and I was like, why why do youseem pitying?
Like why why do you look likethat?
And yeah, it's just, it's justa hard thing to swallow, it's
(34:53):
just like.
And I and I also, but I also atthe same time now I'm looking
at my son and I'm just like, ohmy gosh, like I am so, so
grateful I have, I am sograteful I had the opportunity
to carry, get pregnant,breastfeed, have a biological
child, literally all of thosethings I did not.
(35:15):
There was a good period of timewhere I was not sure that that
was in my future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:20):
So I you know I'd be heartbroken here, but
like I'm also very grateful, youknow, very grateful for what I
have.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:28):
Yeah, and that's good and it also kind
of sucks that you have to feellike it's okay to just feel bad.
I saw that a lot with likesecond time moms who were going
through fertility where theyfelt like they didn't deserve to
feel as bad as they did becausethey had one kid, like they
were one of the like quoteunquote lucky ones.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:49):
It's like it still sucks yeah, rigging, yeah,
yeah, now there's, there's uh,yeah, there's no way around it.
It's kind of well, we'll see,we'll see what happens.
Yeah, right, we'll see whathappens, but it's been, it's
been an interesting year.
Coming out of the cancer andlike I funnel a lot of my like
thoughts and energy into coolmind, which has been like also
(36:13):
like a very healing experiencein many ways, because I think
kind of it's different from youthat I you seem to always want
to, you know, look forward to beon your own and be your own
boss and not be like in aninstitution, and I love that.
(36:33):
I actually like crave that.
I have like weird obsessivedreams about summer camp, like
literally every dream, to thepoint where I'm like I'm like
reinforcing it, like I think I'mtalking about it so much that
every night I have a dream thatI'm like in a summer camp
program, like with other adultsand it's like in a hotel or a
(36:54):
camp or there's some like,there's some like insular,
contained community of peoplewith a certain time period.
That's like the theme of mydreams and it's because I think
it's a lot of things, but Ithink it's because, like they're
most most of my life.
Was that right.
Most of my life, most of yourlife, is school or like some
(37:14):
kind of cohort or community orprogram that when you're out in
the world, you're like I had ahard time being like what do I
do now?
Like what is the right way?
Like can anyone tell me theright way to build a business?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:28):
Can anyone, like I'm in a, I'm I'm
very much with you on Okay, well, I do want to be.
I do want to be alone in my ownboss and everything.
But that has more to do withlike social stuff.
But the the terror of being ina place where I've been told
what to do for my whole life NowI'm not like that scares the
shit out of me.
There's no grownups.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:49):
Yeah no, and I spent the past year or so.
I'm still doing this, like I'mstill looking for someone to
tell me what the right way to goabout this, and I'm
intentionally doing thingsuncharted right, like I could
easily just continue doingpractice and research like
theworn paths for psychologists.
But I have chosen to um, foundmy own, co-found my own company,
(38:11):
um incorporate AI, which no oneknows what's going on.
Um do like kind of an onlinecoaching community program,
which is also kind of a newconcept of mental health, and to
support loved ones likefamilies, partners and
caregivers of people strugglingwith mental health.
(38:32):
So it's not like the normal,the normal therapy patient.
It's like support around thetherapy patient.
So there's like so many levelsof me just not knowing what the
hell I'm doing and I've justbeen desperate to like.
At first I was like, oh, thestartup world, you know they're
(38:52):
all trying to get into theseaccelerators and VC funding and
let me figure out what that'sall about.
And I was like there's parts ofit that don't feel right and
their advice feels weird.
But I feel like now I'm tryingto please them or trying to fit
into what they want from me, andthen like the same thing over
and over again.
I'm like, oh no, they don'tknow what they're doing either,
(39:14):
and no one knows what they'redoing.
I'm alone, I am.
I'm like there's no summer camp.
I like I'm too old for summercamp now.
Like now I'm like on my own andthere's no grown up over me,
it's just me, you know.
Like it's terrifying, yeah, Imean I don't know where I was
going with that, but just likeit's.
(39:34):
It's been a weird, it's been aweird experience having to come
to terms with that.
Come to terms with, like, whatdo I want?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:42):
to terms with like what do I want?
I'm always amazed byentrepreneurs Like I just don't.
I just straight up.
I wouldn't know the first stepto take, like and yeah, I.
So whenever you, whenever youtext me like scared about this
ring, it's just about I'm likeyeah, I know, I don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:07):
I don't know what to say.
I would be.
No one knows.
That's a secret, no one knows.
It's just that certain peoplelike certain, like straight
white men, like the zuckerbergand, you know, adam newman, what
I'm learning is that they don'tknow more, they just like are
more comfortable acting likethey do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:15):
Guys kippy's obsessed with adam
newman right now.
I am obsessed, I've I spent.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:19):
Like my co-founder came in and hung out
for the summer, for like part ofthe summer, and we watched,
like the social network and thewe work founder adam newman,
like the documentaries and theshows, and then we also watched
a little of the you know, thesuper pumped, the uber ceo, and
it's just, it's fun, becauseit's just kind of like this like
(40:39):
vaudeville, like variety showof like hardcore narcissists
that just were like, yeah, I'mthe future.
You could get on board withthis vision or be left behind.
I am it.
And they, they are running onempty.
They have zero idea whatthey're doing.
They're just like shooting fromthe seat of their pants.
(40:59):
Like I just forget that markzuckerberg started Facebook
because he was just trying tomake a website rating women for
hotness in his school and thenstole the website idea from you
know other people and then wasjust like, yeah, well, I made it
better.
So you know, like I was like,oh, these, like gods among us,
(41:22):
are just like.
They just don't know.
No one knows what they're doing.
They just have confidence inthemselves and somehow
delusional confidence inthemselves and I'm like, okay,
here I go.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (41:32):
I gotta be like them, like the scam
artist, like them oh my god,scam owners seem so happy, you
know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:39):
They're just like yeah, I know what, I know
what to do, I know what's up.
Like you seem really happy withthat, whereas I'm like am I
doing it right, do I know?
I'm like doing I'm compulsivelysigning up for other clinical
trainings, even though we haveprobably the most clinical
training of all the people inthe world.
And that's that's me being likethe narcissist, trying to be
(42:04):
like the narcissism, like Ididn't know what to.
We know what we're doing whenit comes to psychology, and yet
I am right now finishing anothercertification process for a
different kind of clinical work.
Which one?
Why?
Craft For loved ones of peoplewith substance use?
Well, at least it's relevant.
Yeah, it's very relevant.
But, like everything I'mlearning, I'm like yeah, I know
(42:26):
this already, it's wrong with me.
So that's how I am this year.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:33):
Maybe if I'm just a little bit more
legit, if I just know a littlebit more then I'll have the
confidence to just go and killit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:39):
One day I'll be like finally, I've arrived at
age 40.
Phd, Anyway, hamster wheels, AmI right?
You are right.
The other thing I wanted tomention about this past year is
that something that I've learned?
First of all, I've like dove indeep into marketing and trying
(43:01):
to get into social media.
If anyone's listening, pleasego to Cool A mind on Instagram
and please follow me because I'mworking so hard as a 39 year
old cancer survivor trying tofigure out how to make reels.
Thank you very much.
People no, I'm not guiltingpeople.
I'm straight up bullying peopleinto following me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:21):
Okay, as a cancer survivor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:28):
Okay, yeah, that's a little there.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:29):
We go a little guilting yeah, you're
right, using all my methods.
If cancer's taken so much youcan, it can give this you can
follow me yeah, you follow me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:35):
Um, so I've mostly been learning social
media to kind of do markettesting and really get an idea
of what people want.
And how am I really?
This is my new skill I'm tryingto learn and obsess about how
do you distill what we know,like all of our knowledge?
How do we distill it to like a30 second reel where you have to
capture people's attention whenthey're brain rot, scrolling on
(43:58):
the bathroom through funnymemes, right, like that's
actually it's a really importantpart of marketing these days
(44:18):
and it's so.
It's actually such a hard skillthat I am trying to learn to
capture it to be like I have tomake you care about validation
of.
I'm just talking about like kindof making a reel out of like I
said it was like my, your POV,your husband's exploding,
exploding in anger, drinkingmore and going down alt right
(44:40):
YouTube channels and going downalt-right YouTube channels and I
didn't know that that was aderogatory term.
I'm such an idiot because I justgot that term from the women
who told me that this was a day,so I just wrote it and I got
like like that reel went viralbecause there were so many
people on opposite sides.
(45:00):
There were liberal women whowere being like like mad that I
wasn't more critical of these,of these men Right, because in
my caption I said something likewe got to support each other,
blah, blah, blah.
And they were like, how couldyou say that?
And then I got a lot ofconservative men who were like,
well, I would, I would alsodrink if I, if my wife, looked
like you or you.
(45:20):
Liberal women are the idiotswho are.
This is this is why I'mdepressed and like you know all
sorts of stuff.
And I was like, oh, this yearI've learned that men and women
do not like each other.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:33):
Yeah, yeah, I want to do.
I want to do an episode.
I read this book called thetragedy of heterosexuality and I
want to invite the author on tobe a guest, because this is one
of the points she makes.
She's's like what is up withheterosexuals?
You guys seem to hate eachother, like really hate each
other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:51):
Yeah, look on anything on on social media
which is like how everyone islearning about.
You know the social, you knowthe social vibe is like how do
you get rid of talks?
How do you?
How do you get rid of toxic?
How do you?
How do you spot the signs of atoxic man?
How do you break up with atoxic right Like spot the enemy
and get rid and annihilate them.
(46:12):
How do you basically get a highvalue man to want me?
Right it's?
It's like this competitive,hostile view of dating and
partnership and men and womennow are struggling with mental
health issues completely alone.
Right, I feel bad for how manymen have like written hate
(46:33):
comments on my on my instagram.
But but like legitimately sayinglike I am struggling, I'm
depressed, I'm angry, I feellike used and I feel like women
just blame me for it, and I'mlike, yeah, that sucks, like
that.
But then when I say that like,oh, it sucks, then I get a bunch
(46:54):
of women's like how dare youcondone abusive men?
And I'm like, oh my God, likecan't win, like it's just.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:04):
I mean, that's just, that's just
something that really shocked meI mean you, because you had
that earlier post and we'vetalked about it on this podcast,
about that post, that where youtalked about all right, but now
you have a second post thatliterally just says like men are
struggling, this is so sad, weneed to help each other.
And the comments on that theyweren't even against you this
time, they were just againsteach.
It was like men and womenwarring in the comments.
(47:26):
I was like our society isburning down.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:29):
Yeah, I'm going to link to those posts on
this episode, so in the shownotes.
But yeah, the comments werelike all.
No one was like women have noempathy.
I was like all of them and likeit's men's fault that they're
depressed, let them fix it.
They messed up our society.
(47:51):
I'm like I get that point andalso, like you know, we would
want them to help us, right,it's just?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:57):
it just is so sad.
Which men did this and set uptheir society and set up
patriarchy, like the ones thatare born today, like look, I
mean, everybody participates inpatriarchy and, yes, it causes
lots of problems.
It also causes problems for men, but we can't say that because
men set up a system that the menthat exist within it are like
(48:20):
like like jason, my partner didnot design patriarchy, alex,
your husband did not designpatriarchy Like we can't be like
, well, fuck them because theydesigned patriarchy.
It's like no, they didn't.
They were born into the systemand then participated in it to
the extent that, like, they wereraised within it.
Right, like all of our culturalnorms and values, they keep
(48:42):
constructing patriarchy as itgoes along.
But no individual man was thedesigner and architect of
patriarchy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:51):
Yeah, but you could say that a lot of them
benefit from it, and that's alsojust like silently, and that's
that's part of participating it.
Yeah, and like yes, we don'tknow who to point the finger and
say you're depressed, is yourfault, right, and it's like and
even so, even if, like, like youknow, our husbands or our
partners are like the ones whomade patriarchy, once made
(49:13):
patriarchy, like, made thehandmaid's tale and you know
what is it?
Galliard, galliard, galliard.
Yeah, they made whatever like,what are we gonna do?
Do Like I just it's my point.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (49:27):
It's my point.
Saying that they designedpatriarchy is not a helpful
comment.
So they designed patriarchy, sothey should suffer.
That's not a helpful comment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:34):
Right, and what do we do about it?
Like I don't, like we talkedabout another episode that
humiliating each other is notthe way right.
We just get angry at each other, like being like men and their
toxicity, and I hate them andall of you guys need to feel sad
about that.
I mean, I understand that thattrauma would lead to those
feelings, but then all the menare like screw you, you know.
(49:56):
Then they get mad, right, soit's like I don't think that's
effective to fight oppressionwith more oppression.
Right, like I don't, I don'tknow I'm, you know I'm waiting
to get heat for this too, but Ijust think I and I literally I
am really in a bind here becausewe say on this podcast and it's
(50:21):
truly what we believe that ourloved ones, our social network,
have great impact on our mentalhealth.
Right, like if my husband weremean to me or didn't validate me
or, you know, was like whatever, didn't support me, I would be
depressed.
But then also to say that he'snot responsible for my mental
(50:42):
health right, and to tell, well,you know, in Kula Mind, we're
helping loved ones know whatskill like, get skills and
education to support theirpartners, let's say, with
depression or mental healthissues right.
So if I'm helping, let's say,women whose husbands have an
alcohol problem, and I sayyou're not responsible for their
drinking, it is not your fault.
(51:04):
You're not the only ones to fixit.
And yet here are skills tosupport them.
Yeah, I know, it's like it's,it's a nuance like it makes
sense to me, but it's a nuancething that's hard to communicate
, because once you say, hey, ifyou validate their emotions they
might be less angry, but thenyou're also not responsible for
their anger.
(51:25):
Tricky right, cause and effectis really confusing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:28):
Yeah, no, I mean a thousand percent.
The sense of responsibility inrelationships gets played with
by both partners too.
Like look, I mean, if Jasonwere a dick to me, it's not.
Like I would say to him youknow what, it's totally fine
because it's my responsibility.
I would say to him you knowwhat, it's totally fine because
it's my responsibility to not beaffected by what you say.
So you do, you and I.
(51:51):
My responsibility is entirely.
My mental is entirely sorry.
My mental health is entirely myresponsibility.
But also like I was made to beresponsible for a partner's
mental health and that was notfair either.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:04):
Yeah, and I think that I think the challenge
is that we are trying to as asociety, we're moving towards
polarization and black and whitethinking.
Yeah, I'm totally at fault foreveryone's problems, or it's
your fault right, you're toxic.
I'm toxic, you who's toxic?
There's's one toxic person, butactually it's like way more
(52:27):
nuance than that.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:29):
Yeah, and it's hard to talk about that
that we like a toxic dynamichas two sides to it, right, and
yeah, and one person, one personin that dynamic can be lovely
and also can still be aparticipant in what makes it
toxic.
So I don't know, it's, it'stough, um, so anything you are
(52:53):
looking forward to exploring inseason six?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:57):
lots of stuff .
Um, I'm excited to explore theoutcome of our manifestation
that we did last true episode.
Are you going to feelfinancially secure and am I
going to feel like cool mind isgrowing and you guys can
directly affect that by?
But anyway, um, I'm excited.
(53:18):
We, you know, we haven't delvedas much into alternative um
treatments for mental healththat are emerging, like there's
a lot of exciting new things inAI and psychiatry and like
psychedelics and ketamine andyou know, just like all these
different forms of mental healthtreatment, like supplements and
gut health, and I'm, I'm, I'mjust and there's some disorders
(53:42):
we haven't covered yet.
Like we haven't really talkedabout schizophrenia yet.
Yeah, so, yeah, a lot of coolstuff we could talk about.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:50):
So I'm excited to talk about AI because
of course, I'm terrified thatit'll take away my career, but
it's that conversation seems tobe like evolving in really
interesting ways and you've beeninvolved in that conversation
in ways that I haven't so loveto hear from you about that.
It is so funny that we stillhaven't done a psychiatry
(54:11):
episode.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:11):
We've talked about it for literal years.
Um, we just, we've just beenreally picky about the who we
want us to get.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (54:15):
Like we could probably you know there's
a lot of psychiatrists, youknow, but we were like, oh, we
have to get the right person, sowe'll find someone that we like
a lot.
Yeah, but please, if you guyshave suggestions, any kind of
curiosities, we've done so manyepisodes based off of your
questions and suggestions, sovery much value that and yeah, I
(54:38):
think I think that's it maybefor for today.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:42):
Yeah, if you, if you do have suggestions,
there's at the top of the shownotes.
There's like send us a text,you click that and send us a
message.
That feature doesn't let usrespond.
So if you want us to respond,email um kibby k-i-b-b-y at
coolamindcom k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom.
Or go to um jacqueline'sinstagram at trombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:04):
I might change it to at Dr Trumbelina,
just because it makes me lookgood.
Yeah, one of those two.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:11):
Fully.
Get in the show notes, so youcan get in contact anyway.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:14):
Alright , guys, we'll see you all in
about a month and a half forseason six.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
(55:37):
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
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(55:57):
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
Treatment of a duly licensedand qualified healthcare
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(56:19):
such approval or endorsement.
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