Self-Hatred: Wrestling With The Hidden Demon

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Have you ever had the unsettling realization that perhaps you don't like yourself very much? That underneath all your accomplishments, relationships, and hard work, there's a persistent voice whispering that you're somehow fundamentally flawed? In this very personal episode, we dive into the connection between childhood trauma and the development of negative core beliefs that can manifest as self-loathing. When children experience abuse or emotional neglect, especially from parents who refuse to acknowledge their harmful behavior, the child often internalizes the belief that they're inherently bad, broken, or unlovable.

What makes this particularly painful is how these beliefs become woven into the fabric of our identity. The path toward healing begins with recognizing that self-hatred isn't your true voice—it's a protective strategy developed when you had no other options. By approaching these disowned parts with curiosity and compassion rather than fear, we can begin to release their grip on our lives. While we may never receive the validation and accountability we deserve from those who hurt us, we can find new ways to nurture and accept those wounded parts of ourselves.

Whether you're struggling with self-criticism or supporting someone who is, this episode offers an intimate peek into understanding how early trauma shapes our relationship with ourselves and practical steps toward reclaiming the parts we've been taught to fear and hate. 

**If you or someone you love struggles with self hatred, book a call to see how Dr. Kibby with KulaMind can help. 

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• If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
We have discussedintellectually some of these
topics before, but I think itcan be sometimes more helpful to
hear what it's like for one ofus actually suffering from this

(00:23):
stuff.
So Kibbe and I are going tohave a discussion that's
basically about how early youknow, childhood abuse can lead
to really negative core beliefsand self-loathing, and this is
going to be an episode where I'mreally and this is going to be

(00:49):
an episode where I'm really um,I'm really excited that kibbe's
kind of willing to do this withus and brave enough to talk
about this with us, becauseshe's.
You've talked a lot about yourchildhood before and your
relationship with your mom andalluded to it, but today it
seems like you want to talkabout it in depth.
So how are you feeling cominginto this episode?
Yeah, start there.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
I mean nervous.
It's one of these things thatbefore we were going to record
this, I was ruminating andfeeling raw in my emotions and
now that I'm here I'm nervous.
So waffling between wanting tosay how I feel but then also
being nervous that, ironically,like it's going to sound whiny

(01:32):
or too raw or too off-putting orsomething.
So nervous.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
This comes up for you whenever you talk about things
in your life we did an episodeon cancer.
She's like, like I'm worriedthis is going to bum people out.
Well, yeah it might've itmight've.
Well, I knew you want to saysomething about cool mind before
we kick this off, so I'll I'llturn it over to you for that as
well.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, thanks, um, for people listening.
I mean, I you maybe know, youknow this by now, but we've been
through so much stuff.
You and me, jacqueline and Ireally made cool in mind to help
people like us at times wherewe felt scared, we felt alone,

(02:20):
we felt like we were in arelationship that was difficult.
We weren't sure if we were thetoxic one or they were the toxic
one, or am I causing the pain,they're causing the pain Like it
just is such a lonelyexperience to try to navigate
mental illness and emotions inrelationships like this broken
attachment, and we were buildingCool of Mind so that people

(02:41):
don't feel alone in it.
Building Cool of Mind so thatpeople don't feel alone in it.
And you know, I usually say allthe things like we.
You know, in Cool of Mind it'swe're doing a community with a
group where we're going to teachall the skills that we talk
about how to take care ofyourself, how to set boundaries
without guilt, how to regulateyour own emotions, how to
support loved ones, and that'sall the academic stuff that we

(03:09):
learned over time.
But really, what this is madefor is to make people feel not
alone, make people feel seen andheard in such a difficult
relationship with eitheryourself or someone else having
mental illness or emotionalstruggles.
So if you just want to find outmore, just reach out to me.

(03:29):
I love talking to you.
I've been, you know, on callswith a bunch of you and I really
, really love talking to um tothis community.
So just go to a cool of mine, kU L A M I N Dcom, and click,
get started.
That's how you could book afree call and just learn more
about our group coming up, aswell as one-on-one coaching with
me.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
So yeah, I know this is a huge option for you and I
think this episode will helpreveal why and why this is so
close to your heart.
Um so, earlier today you textedme something.
Do you mind if I share whatthat was?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh, my God you texted me.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I think I hate myself and that's a relief to say to
finally admit to.
Can you tell me what washappening for you in that moment
?

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I don't know what was going on this morning.
I think I've been waiting forthis moment after cancer, where
this magic healing happens.
People who go through somethingscary or an illness say that it
strips them away of all thenoise and gets to some core
issues that needed healing and Iwas kind of waiting for that

(04:48):
and it's made me come in contactmore with this anxiety I feel
all the time.
I mean, you know this very well, but I'm just constantly
anxious that I'm not doingenough, that I'm not doing well
enough, that something's wrongin my relationships.
You know, just always anxiousabout that.
And I felt a lot of knowledgeand a lot of peace and healing

(05:12):
through becoming a therapist andworking with people who also
struggle with this.
So I feel like I've come a longway, but there's this core part
of me that just is constantlybuzzing, constantly feeling not
enough.
And I think also through allthis, these podcast episodes,
we've talked about a lot ofdifferent issues that I normally

(05:35):
wouldn't otherwise Um andrealizing, like, how much we've
gone through and how much umthat anxiety is from a lot of
the traumatic things that I'vebeen through as a kid and when I
, when I just I don't know why.
I was, like, you know, going,going home from an appointment

(05:57):
and I was just thinking, I thinkI just hate myself, Like I
think I, I, I, I assume that I'mbad and broken and all the good
things I do and all the nicethings people say to me are, you
know, almost false.
Like it's surface level.

(06:17):
They know that side of me andI'm overcompensating.
But you know, I'm really brokendown deep inside.
And once you know, once peoplehave found out, um or have come
in contact with that, that'swhere problems lie and it's just
a matter of time before theyget there, Um and it.
And, weirdly enough, like Ididn't feel sad when I had the

(06:40):
thought, oh, I hate myself, Ihad the like relief kind of like
how some of our friends havedescribed like coming out of the
closet to themselves wherethey're like, oh, there's this
thing that has like been woveninto all the different parts of
my life in the background andit's caused this like

(07:02):
disconnection and confusion andpain.
But I couldn't put my finger onit.
But now I, now I get it.
So once I saw like, oh, I hatemyself, Then I saw how it, the
tendrils, have spread out overmy life and infected, like
everything, the way I think, theway I act, and this anxiety

(07:24):
that I say, that it always sitswith me.
So it was kind of like a reliefwhen I realized that or thought
that.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, I mean there's some relief, in a sense of
certainty, I suppose,understanding what's happening.
Is this something that you 100%believe, or is this something
that only a part of you believes?
Or is this something that onlya part?

Speaker 2 (07:43):
of you believes.
I think if you were to ask methis morning it'd be a hundred
percent.
I think, now that I'm a littlecalmer, I have like, oh yes,
it's there in me, like deep down, like in my stomach or my chest
, but there's other parts of methat knows that it's not true,
like it kind of feels like amore logical side of me.

(08:04):
That's like Kimmy, come on,you're great, you have all these
like good things, you know.
So, yeah, I mean right now it'sprobably like 60, 70%, but I
think I'm realizing how muchit's played a role in all the
times where I've gotten likeweirdly upset about things and
didn't know why, or gottenreally angry, or really angry

(08:26):
myself or really.
You know, when the emotionslike didn't fit the situation,
I'm like, oh, it's theself-hatred that was driving it.
So it feels like I figured outan answer to a puzzle.

(08:50):
Whenever I fail, or whenever Ifeel like I don't do well enough
, I am like, oh, it's because ofthis broken part of me that's
infected that that that willnever make me as successful as I
should be.
Or even when I you know sillythings when I look at
counterparts, my peers, that aredoing better than me
professionally, you know, justlike comparison, social

(09:10):
comparison, I'm like, oh it's,they have what it takes to be
good.
And I'm trying hard to keep upthat race with a, with a, with a
broken leg, and this broken legis a secret that no one knows.
I have this broken leg but it's, it's there and I hate it and
I'm trying to run as hard as Ican with it so right now you're

(09:33):
kind of talking about it, um, interms of like success, ambition
, failure, productivity.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
It seems like I've I've witnessed there this.
There's this other side to ittoo, when it's like, when you
convince yourself that somebodydoesn't truly care about you
yeah is that a different part?
Is it the other side of thesame coin?
Is it related to success?

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I think, if I were to tie it back to, I mean, I think
that the professional successwas like my way of getting out
of this, getting not brokenright.
Like my especially, my dad wasalways really like excited when
I would do well in school and hewas very proud of me for that.

(10:27):
So that felt like a lifeline,Like as long as I did well, I,
someone, will see me as good.
And in relationships it comesout as like people pleasing or
like you know, doing everythingI can to make them happy.
And then there's that alwaysthat fear, that like if I don't
do that, they're that's the onlything that they like about me.

(10:51):
And that feels a little bitmore closer to the way I feel
about my relationship with mymother, but it's probably both.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
I'm wondering if the success thing is is less about
oh, I'm not the kind of personwho has what it takes to be
successful and more about if Ifail.
I'm so threatened because Idon't have my lifeline available
to me.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, I felt it a lot when I had cancer and I
couldn't work as much, or when Iwas postpartum.
I was like, oh, I waspostpartum.
I was like, oh, I don't havethat lifeline, like I don't have
that thing that people wouldlike.
So what am I?
Nothing.
No one's gonna no one's gonnalike me, no one's gonna want me,
no one's gonna find me valuable.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
So that was hard the sense of what it means to be bad
, or like this diseased part ofyou.
Do you?
Can you put words to it?
Does it?
Is it a character of some kindthat you could describe?

Speaker 2 (11:55):
the angry version to me, the one that was the one
that the part of me that's likeaggressive and big personality,
um, I think that you know, justjust from, just from, like just

(12:18):
natural consequences, likewhenever I've gotten angry or
whenever I've been, you know,like aggressive in some way,
that's what gets the negativefeedback Right.
Like people don't like that,for example, like some little
things, like this one thing thatstood out to me, my friend um,
and she fell backward and shesaid, like she was like Kibbe,
in this like horrified way, andI remember that, like I I mean I

(12:54):
apologize and we like we'refine, but I was horrified at
myself.
I was like, oh no, like I'm bad, like I can't believe I did
that.
I'm bad, like how can I do that?
Why did I do that?
Um, so, yeah, that part of methat's, yeah, I mean, I talked

(13:17):
to my mom today, um, and I, I,uh, that was that was a hard day
.
Um, I think it's it.
How do I explain this in asuccinct, like normal way?
Um, I, it's.
It kind of feels like thisbroken side of me, or that part

(13:47):
it's like, I guess, agenerational trauma, something
that I inherited from her.
Some days it feels like um, athing that she wanted me to,
that it's like this there's thispart or this demon that is
being passed around.
No one wants it.
My mom had it and she's tryingto pass it to me and I don't
want it and I struggle withholding it and you know, I I

(14:08):
have it, I guess, and I'm like Idon't want this, I don't want
this.
I don't think this is mine, butI have it and I don't know what
to do with it, and I sometimeswish that she would take it back
.
But she never does Um, and theway that looks like is does um,

(14:29):
and the way that looks like is,I think she probably felt
rejected and shamed and like notaccepted by people, and so she
did the same to me, um, and I,as I've been doing a little bit
more healing, I'm like wait, a,maybe I'm not bad, maybe maybe
this, this isn't actually me,maybe maybe she gave this to me,

(14:51):
maybe this like idea of myselfcame from her.
And then, when I say that, orwhen I say like don't you
recognize how essentiallyabusive you've been, she goes
well, no, I wasn't, it's yourdad's fault, or like today, I
just, I kind of I.

(15:12):
I just was in such a raw placeI couldn't hold back and I kind
of unleashed all the things,thoughts and feelings that I've
been holding in, which is thatI've been, I feel scared around
my mom, I feel unsafe, I feelguarded and I feel irritable
around her.
I really get scared when shehas my son, especially if it's
unsupervised, like I really likeI feel viscerally, like my

(15:34):
stomach is in knots.
And today she did one of herthings again, where she wanted
to, you know, take him, take himover to her house, which leaves
me like in a state of panic,state of panic.
And I said no.
And she said why don't you?
Like we always get in a fightabout this.
She was like why don't, whydon't you let me like?
He asked me, and because ofbecause of you, I have to say no

(15:55):
to him, I have to deny him.
And so I said you know I'm thatI don't feel safe around you,
like I think you were very meanto me sometimes and of course
she denied it.
And then eventually shebasically said you know, this is
deep in the conversation, theyall saw what you were like as a

(16:15):
kid and a grown-up.
You asked me to look at myself,maybe you could look at
yourself very angry child, sodifficult, but I still love you.
And often she will say thingslike you know, is your dad who
caused all this because he left.
And how she says this oftenwhere she says it's your like

(16:40):
how does it make me, how do youthink it made me feel when you
would go to him and be excitedto see him, even though he broke
my heart?
Like how dare you?
She really blames me a lot forwanting to be with my dad or
getting excited to see him.
Or like feeling like I had agood relationship with him
because she was like how couldyou do that to me?

(17:00):
So, yeah, that's.
I think that, like when shesays those things, I see it.
I say like, oh, that's wherethat self-hatred comes from.
Like I went through some of theworst things in my entire life
with her and she says it'sbecause of me, is to because I'm

(17:20):
angry or difficult or something, so the worst things that
happen to me are my faultbecause I am who I am.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, so you can see that now rationally that that's
a Swiss cheese argument.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
But I mean like emotionally, as I'm saying it
out loud, like I'm reading thosetexts, there's a, there's a
part of me that's so angry thatshe would say that, and then
there's another part of methat's like maybe it's true, you
know, like maybe what'shappening for you.
I just feel it's true, or I justmy mind goes back and forth of,

(17:59):
like the therapist adult sideknows it's not true, the
therapist adult side knows it'snot true.
And then there was a kid side.
That's like, maybe I did, maybeI did deserve it.
Sorry, yeah, I want to takeyour pain away, but you already

(18:40):
know that that's not fair to puton a kid.
Yeah, I mean, I didn't knowthat until I started having a
son myself.
I mean, it's weird.
I think a lot of peopleexperience this where once they
have a kid of their own, theystart to realize what they've
been through.
It's a really disorientingexperience to have a kid and you
see this little child andyou're like, oh my God, how

(19:06):
could someone do something tothat, that little little thing,
you know like the thing that youwanted to protect so badly.
Um, and I see, sometimes withmy son, where he like has a big
personality right, like he's a,he has like big feelings and
he's like loud and whatever, andI get really scared of people,

(19:27):
of like people's reaction tothat Cause.
I'm like, oh my God, what if?
What if, like they think he's abad boy, what if they see this
and they think he's bad too andhe'll go through like the way I
feel.
So I see it now more as a mom.
Yeah, no, no, I, uh I might gothe opposite way, where I'm even

(20:00):
, like, sometimes too gentle andtoo like.
I kind of like too giving in.
I mean, this is the thing thathappens when people don't want
to like.
I see it intellectually andemotionally.
Like when people don't want tolike, I see it intellectually
and emotionally like when peopledon't want to own the parts of
them they don't want to thatthey don't like like the quote,
broken or bad parts.

(20:20):
Like my mom acts in ways that isreally hurtful to a lot of
people.
I mean to the point where mywhole family and like people
around me and people I grew upwith all know what she's like
and every time I say I say thisto her, like I present the

(20:42):
evidence to her I'm like don'tyou remember when you did this?
Don't you remember when this?
And she'll, she'll, she'll, actlike it didn't happen or if, if
she, if she does admit it, it'sbecause it was someone else's
fault.
Like to this day, when we fight, or when she's, you know, harsh
to me or mean to me, orsomething like that she'll say

(21:02):
something about well, I was hurtbecause of the divorce, or
she'll blame it on my dad.
I'm like you have long beendivorced from my dad and also
he's dead, but she doesn't wantto own that part, so she gives
it to me, I think.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
It's for you to go to this place where you feel bad
and you think about the timesyou've been angry or aggressive
or what have you.
The place she would have to gois hell.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
And that's not me trying to have over-compassion
for her, but it makes sense.
It makes more sense that shewould refuse to go to that place
and instead hand you a portionof it to hold.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah.
And it's just so lonely because, like I have to hold it all you
know yeah, well, but you'reright, like she can't tolerate
it.
She just can't.
I, weirdly enough, I don't knowif this is a subconscious
calling, but lately I've beenwatching you, the Netflix show.
By the way, everyone skip thisnext few seconds because I might

(22:17):
give spoilers.
I'll try not to.
But after today I was like I'mjust going to watch TV, I need
to.
Just I'm kind of like I, oh God, I.
The worst part of the day wasthat I had this argument with
her and then I was like, please,like argument with her.
And then I was like, please,like, please, leave us alone,
like I was begging her, pleaselike, set me, like, leave me
alone.
Please, like, give me somespace.

(22:38):
I'm gonna stop texting.
And then we did, and then Iheard her calling him through
the nanny's phone and I, Iliterally went into a fight or
flight mode.
I literally like ran out toliving room and I was like get
all, and I started sobbing and Istarted shaking, um, and I
couldn't stop Like.
I just like was hype, I, youknow, felt like I was an animal.

(23:00):
I just couldn't sort of kind ofnumb out.
I watched you and we're justlike a fun murder, murder show,
um, but there's a season, notthe latest season?
I haven't seen that yet, so nospoilers on that.
But there's a season not thelatest season, I haven't seen
that yet, so no spoilers on thatbut there's a season where
eventually, this guy has beendoing horrible things, like

(23:21):
killing people and and he keepshaving the story of himself as
the victim of trauma and like agood guy who wants to protect
the weak, to protect women, andyou could see his like the
voiceover is his inner dialogueand he's and Joe the character
is always saying like I wouldnever do, I would never hurt

(23:43):
anyone.
I, whenever he would dosomething, he'd kill someone or
hurt them.
He'd be like I, this is not me,this is not who I am, I didn't
do this, I'm not that person.
And he will have like somejustification for why he did it
until he seems to have abreaking point where he
dissociates and really like DIDdissociative identity disorder

(24:06):
where he splits the part of himthat kills people and hurts
people and he is not consciousof it anymore.
So it functions as anotherperson.
So it's like there's people cango through such extremes when
they cannot tolerate a part ofthemselves um yeah, and like I'm
not saying that I'm better, I,I don't tolerate it a lot.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
You know, like I, I hide from the fact that I feel
like this about myself a lotgetting in contact with it
sometimes is probably importantso that you can process it, and

(24:50):
you do have to function.
So I'd say that's better thandissociating a part of you that
murders people.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, there are levels.
There's like, literally, youknow the dissociating, that part
of you that you don't want toown.
You don't want it.
Um, there's the projecting,which is part of dissociation,
where you see it in other people.
Like that's actually a lot ofwhat transference focus therapy

(25:20):
is all about.
Is that the theory ispersonality disorders are made
because you can't integrate thedifferent parts of you.
You deny one or two or whatever, and then you throw it onto
other people.
I'm the victim, you're theaggressor, and that other person
might actually feel likethey're being hurt.
Right?

(25:40):
So, like you have it, you havethe bad part of me I don't want.
Or there's just likesuppression and denial, or what
I do, which is like suppressingand overcompensating.
Right, like, oh no, no, I'mtrying to do good things, I, I,
I guess I'm not sure, but itdoesn't feel real like it feels

(26:00):
like you know, the bad stuff isactually more truthful.
Um, yeah, so there's differentways that you could deny and
like wrestle with those disownedparts of you.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
So as a kid, you were terrorized by your mother and
made to believe that it'sbecause you were quote bad and
difficult and angry, was it?

Speaker 2 (26:32):
it was that vague, just these vague words about you
being.
I think back then it was I meanwith her, with her.
When she says it, it might bedifferent things.
It was, oh, now it's like.
Now I'm remembering it's um thesame thing that she had an
issue with her mom and my dad wedon't care, we're cold, we just
work a lot.
We don't give her what shewants, we don't give the
attention and love that shewants, um, that I'm fat, like

(26:56):
she used to.
She used to actually say if youkeep eating like this, no one's
gonna love you.
Um, yeah, and and then me?
Me being defiant against herwas always the thing that she
would point to as, like you'rebad, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Anytime you thought of a mirror to her, she attacked
.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
It sounds like.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, and then you get rewarded for some of those
same traits by your father.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
That's confusing.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, confusing.
Yeah, yeah, it was like I'mlike my dad, so that she hates
me for it, and I'm like my dadand my dad liked me for it.
So I mean, now that I'm anadult, I don't really think I'm
exactly like him, actually verydifferent.
I'm actually have a lot ofqualities like her, but yeah,

(27:55):
it's just this.
Oh, like, I feel it like.
It's just like this.
It's like I'm poisoned and I'mlike doing what I can to hide
the fact that I'm poisoned ortrying to let it not infect
every everything around me.
Um, what?

Speaker 1 (28:13):
would happen if you broke open the poison bottle?
Like what If I said hey, giveme the poison, be poisonous
right now?
What do you think would comeout?

Speaker 2 (28:27):
I think I would just be myself and people would just
leave me.
I don't think I would doanything different, like it's
not, like I have a part of methat I'm, that it doesn't look
like I would do anythingdifferent.
Maybe sometimes when I'm likeangry, like how I, you know,
like I know we've talked aboutthis a lot where I'll suppress
my anger and people please, andthen burst, so it's, that is the

(28:51):
burst moment, and then peopleare like, whoa, you know, like
that's out of nowhere, kibbe,you're so angry and like I'm
like, oh yeah, well, here I am,you know, so it um, and then
there's a sad feeling of like Iknow my mom feels sometimes
where it's like why can't peoplesee that part of me and still
love me?
You know, like it's a matter oftime before that comes out, and

(29:15):
then people will hate it andsee it as bad.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
What's interesting to me is that that part of you is
a behavior that seems like itcomes out because you suddenly
get frightened and it activatesthis core belief stuff.
So it almost seems like abyproduct of believing that

(29:45):
there's something wrong with you, rather than it being evidence
or rather than it being the badpart of you.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, I think I can't tell what that's because
I'm trying to control it or makeit happen and describe it, but
we've seen it.
I see it clinically a lot right, where people who are afraid of
rejection tend to do things toget them rejected, like they

(30:15):
either hide or from other people, or they actually like
literally push people away andthey go.
Well, there it is.
I told you, people are going toleave me.
So like there's something abouthow we try to confirm these
parts of us or those beliefsthat were broken.
So, yeah, like I don't know ifthere's anything like underneath

(30:39):
the part, like I don't thinkthat there's a part that's like,
oh, if I really let it out,I'll just be evil and I would
like yell at people and you know, like I think it's just like
exist and then if peopleactually see like me, then they
will leave or they'll.

(31:00):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I think it's a matter of time.
I think I've had to deal withthis a lot with my relationship

(31:23):
with Alex, my husband, who Ithink we're starting to realize
how much attachment, insecurityI have.
Whenever, whenever Alex isdepressed or struggling or just
unhappy, I have this panic andI'm this fear of like, oh no,
like I got to fix it, I got tomake it better, um, otherwise

(31:46):
he's going to leave Um, andthere's a lot of work I'm having
to do around just allowing himto have feelings and not let it
just trigger my attachment,insecurity, my belief that I'm
broken and he's just going toleave.
I mean, it was activated a lotduring one of our first fights,
where I have talked about thisbefore.

(32:08):
So I'm sorry if I'm beingrepetitive, but he misread a
tone of a text that I had.
I said we're talking about whenwe're going to get engaged or
something like that.
And I misunderstood and Ithought it was earlier than we
are.
And I said, well, and I waskind of ruminating, I was like

(32:29):
well, maybe it's a good thingthat we're waiting and not
getting married right away orengaged right away.
And he heard it as me beinglike well, fine, maybe it's good
that we're not getting engaged.
But I just I really wasn'ttrying to be mean in that moment
and then he got really mad atme and said you know, I don't
know if this is going to workout.
You're too mean.
You're too mean, I don't thinkI could do this.

(32:51):
I don't know.
And he was really cold and Isobbed for hours after that
because it just it was like myworst nightmare came true I mean
.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
All of these cons, all these psychological concepts
are like marching through mybrain, um, with a sense of, of
hopelessness, like you know how,how one instance of of being
misinterpreted led to youcategorizing your entire self as

(33:26):
mean, instead of seeing it aslike.
Oh you know, occasionally Imean like occasionally a lot of
people are mean, um, but it justbecomes the totality of who you
are.
And it makes sense when youknow you grew up the way you did
.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Someone saying you're mean, therefore you deserve
punishment well, I mean, youknow, like alex and I have been
friends for at that point, 18years, and so us getting
together.
I was like, oh wow, somethingthat makes me feel really safe
around him was that he's knownme and all you know so many
different forms of me that heaccepts me and loves me, even

(34:05):
though he knows all the parts ofme.
And then when he said that Iwas crushed, I was like I was
right.
When he said that I was crushed, I was like I was right, I'm
bad, and when people really findit out, they'll leave.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah that's a pretty crushing thing to say, in
fairness.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
As soon as we got on the phone and I read out my text
to him with the tone that Imeant, he was like oh no, I'm so
sorry.
So this was all cleared up Likelesson learned.
You know, talk about emotionalstuff, not on text.
You know, actually get the toneof voice.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
But yeah, it's this protective action stuff that so
often is the culprit and there'sthis belief in this mysterious
part of the self that ispoisoned and defective and
broken and it can be sofrustrating for the loved one to
be like what are you talkingabout?
I don't know what you'retalking about.
I don't know what this part is.

(35:05):
I wish I could give this part ahug and tell it it's okay,
because it's just not how we seeyou.
Like I've seen this firefighterpart of you before that gets
contemptuous and angry and youknow that's hurt my feelings and
I told you that.
But like it doesn't.

(35:26):
It doesn't seem like that's thetrue, you Doesn't.
You know what I mean?
How?
so the true you doesn't you knowwhat I mean?
How?
So like well, I mean just likethe times when I dissolve into
panic and insecurity andweakness because I'm, because
zach asks me to check theinternal consistency of my
measures.

(35:46):
That doesn't mean that whichhappened an hour ago, we're all
triggered today.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
That's like the worst thing I could think of to ask
you why don't you do a bunch ofstats that don't make any sense
right now, under high pressure,high stakes?

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, you have five days to determine the rest of
your life.
That doesn't mean that I aminherently a weak, panicking,
insecure mess of an ineffectualperson.
There's this concept that Iknow you know, called internal

(36:35):
family systems.
You know there are all thesedifferent parts and they all
have different roles.
They're trying to kind of keepthe system that is the person um
surviving and that part of youthat gets really angry.
It sounds to me like what IFSwould call the firefighter,

(36:56):
which is when all else doesn'tlike, when nothing else seems to
be working, the firefightercomes in and does whatever it
can to protect you from feelinga certain way.
And it sounds like the way thatyou're feeling that's trying to

(37:19):
protect you from is this senseof being unlovable and abandoned
.
Abandonable Do you?
I mean what do you think that'strying to protect you?

Speaker 2 (37:28):
from.
I.
I remember that one time I hada therapist and like a trauma
therapist, and when I was goingthrough grad school in North
Carolina and I was talking aboutthis, about like how I'm more
of an externalizer and I'm moreangry and I feel really ashamed

(37:51):
about that, and she said, well,thank goodness that you are.
And I was like what, what doyou?
What do you mean?
Um, because usually all my youknow like work has been about
like how to manage the anger anddidn't, you know, stuff it down
.
But she was like, oh good, Iwas like that's weird response.
And she she said, well, I meanthe stuff that you went through.

(38:14):
People who are angry as aresponse to that trauma tend to
move forward and they tend to,um, you know, get, get out of
there, get out of that situation.
You know, work like fight forthings.
And she was like if you wentthe other way and weren't angry,

(38:37):
that anger would turn inwardand you would have other kinds
of problems like depression,self-hatred and sometimes like
self-harm.
You know, she was like it'ssometimes also really hard when
people respond to trauma byturning it inward and not
outward, and so I was.
It was the first time someonehad said that and I I couldn't

(39:00):
believe it, like I really it wasnice to hear.
At first I didn't believe it,but over time I can see what she
means by that, so I could seethe protective nature of it.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, I mean, it almost seems like you do
typically turn it inward, butthen there comes a point where
you can no longer hold that.
It can no longer be pointedinwardly and it gets pointed
outwardly.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, there's always this yearning that people would
also recognize that I'm not theonly bad one.
I think that even in argumentsI mean we've talked about this
where I'm like I'm not the only,like I'm the angry, I'm called
the angry one but like otherother people have done things to

(39:45):
hurt me, or like I don't thinkI'm the only one at fault, and
it's still all like that healingfantasy that my mom would
eventually be like okay, yeah,you might be a difficult child
or angry or whatever, but Icouldn't handle it and I did
things that really hurt you andI'm really sorry.

(40:05):
I'm trying to work on it, butit's something that would own
that part of her.
But it just like the amount ofdenial that she has around it is
stunning, like the things thatshe does to her people.
I mean, I didn't even bringthis up, but this is trigger

(40:25):
warning for the story.
But I there's one of my, one ofmy core memories was during a
fight when I have my mom andthey would get really violent
and I woke up in on the terracewith covered in blood and I
didn't know how I got there.
I didn't know what happened andI like my face hurt, but I

(40:48):
didn't, I didn't understand,like I was really disoriented.
I was at first I rememberlooking at my hand and being
like whose is this?
And then I walked inside and Iwas really spaced out.
I walked inside, I went and sawmy mom in the kitchen and she
was sitting at her table and shewas facing away and she was
sitting upright, really reallylike this.

(41:10):
And I remember being like mommy,I don't, I don't know what
happened, like this.
And I remember being like mommy, I don't, I don't know what
happened.
And she turned and looked at me.
She was like, well, you alwayshave nosebleeds and I never told
you the story.
Oh yeah.
And I like went and cleanedmyself up and I remember being
in a fog and to this day I don'tknow what happened.

(41:30):
Um, my mom brought up todayWithout me bringing it up.
She was like, well, you knowyou, you know your dad did this
and you just you came in one dayinto the kitchen and you always
have nosebleeds.
And like the fact that shecouldn't, that's what makes me

(41:54):
feel crazy.
You know, like the amount ofdenial, what denial can do that
she couldn't even tell me whathappened yeah then it's not real
, like I, I, I have the effectsof the pain and the memory and
the horror and the fear and then, but then, like, no one can

(42:15):
tell me what happened, so I justhave to, kind of like, hold it
right.
I mean, this is not an exampleof me being broken, but it's an
example of how, if, if someonewho hurts you doesn't own up to
it, you like get all theblowback of it and you have to

(42:36):
hold it and it doesn't even feelreal.
Sometimes you're just like whathappened?
Did I do that?
Like, did I make it up?
You know, sometimes I like it'slike what happened, maybe I
made it up, maybe I just fell,you know, like, but that's a
weird thing to.
I don't know it just like.
Even if I think about it, itdoesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
But you know what happened.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
I don't like, like I, I think I like I remember parts
that, like we, it was like howwe normally do it and I remember
she's always used the thrashRight and I so I always remember
like a flurry of just like bodythat probably was like hitting
back or something, and then Iwoke up on the floor, you know,
like I don't know how, I don'tknow how I got there, I don't

(43:19):
know when we went out there, Idon't know but you know it was a
result of violence maybe I fellwhen she told you that.
I have, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
I mean it's just, I guess I only bring that up
because it still seems likethere's an attempt to find the
most benign cause instead ofhaving I don't know, I mean
instead of having, I don't know,I mean instead of having to

(43:57):
hold that probably she beat youup and maybe you fell as a
result of that or slammedagainst something as a result of
that, but that is not yourfault.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
I was like nine.
I think that's the craziestthing, that I get really weird
when I see kids when they're sixor seven.
I just get kind of.
You know cause I when, when,whenever you picture the bad
things that happened to you as akid, you picture yourself as
like an adult, like are older,you know.
You just like, oh, like Iremember that and here's how I

(44:33):
process that.
But then when I see a six yearold or seven year old when I all
this stuff happened, it was I'mlike I mean, they're children,
they're literally children.
I just I just can't believe howyoung they are and how fragile
they are.
It's really freaky they are.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
It's really freaky, so messed up.
Um, yeah, I mean, it's just youknow she.
She does something horrible toyou, veils the truth won't own
up to the truth, gives you a agas lighted explanation that it
had something to do with you andyour pesky nosebleeds, which

(45:23):
don't cause pain or dissociation, and then you just have to go
on the next day knowing thatshe's who you come home to yeah,

(45:43):
it really does feel likethere's this demon that lives,
like the generational traumademon, that the the buck that's
passed around that no one wantsto hold.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
This demon hit me, you know, like maybe bleed or
something, and then none of uscan remember, like none of us
can see the demon.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Well, maybe we try to see.
If we think about just theself-hatred piece, the part of
you that blred piece, the partof you that blames yourself, the
part of you that sees yourselfas damaged and broken, what does
, what does that look like?
I mean, can you give it animage Like is that the demon or
is that something else?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, I can only just picture myself as a kid
screaming, and the weird part isit kind of looks like my mom
screaming, because we looked alittle alike At some point in my
life when I was younger.
I looked a lot like her oracted like her, and I have my

(46:49):
bangs and straight black hairand just stomping around
screaming yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Stomping around screaming um.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, stomping around screaming and that's the
self-hatred part.
No, that's part that causes allthe problems that I hate, that,
that that people hate.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
People would hate if they saw it, you know that's the
part of you that gets reallyangry and aggressive.
Yeah, okay, this is the partthat actually does those things,
or is this the part that livesinside you and we don't actually
know what it does or what's sobad about it?

Speaker 2 (47:30):
I don't know.
I never thought about it like aseparated thing, because I know
I think it's.
I think it's like the.
This is one in the same, likethe aggressive part, because
this aggressive part is not justthing, the type that gets angry
when I feel hurt or like I feellike someone hates me.
Right, it's not just a reaction, it's also like the part of me

(47:56):
that works hard or that isambitious or that liked it likes
to like to play sports.
You know, that part like that'smore like I'm saying masculine
because that's like but the onethat you know goes into war,
that like drives me to do stuffum the one that the the part of
me that pushed my friend thatday on in the playground like so

(48:20):
this is the part of you thatsome other part of you hates, or
this is the part of you thatthis is the part of me that has
people like maybe that my momhated that she would um react
badly to that other peopledidn't Like my friend goes Kibby

(48:41):
, you know, and I put like thepart that people are shocked and
horrified when they see it.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
What's your immediate kind of reaction to it If you
see it, that little kid, momKibby, hybrid stomping around?

Speaker 2 (49:01):
I mean the.
The thing that just popped inmy mind just now is seeing when
jackson, my son also, is likethat, you know, when he he's
just like I want that, you know,like you know, um, and I'm like
, oh my god, he has it.
He's infected too.
He has that side, and it's justlike I have such a reaction to
it.
And alex is like it's fine,he's just like I don has that
side and it's just like I havesuch a reaction to it.
And Alex is like it's fine, andhe's just like I don't know, he

(49:22):
just wants a chocolate, I don'tknow, like it's not a big deal,
but I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
And don't have everyone hatehim.
They hate him, they call him abad child.
He's gonna get in trouble.
He's gonna get in trouble forit.
It's weird.
I, I I talked to one of mychildhood friends about this and

(49:45):
I was like do you remember whatI was like back then?
Do you remember, was I bad?
Was I like difficult?
And she was like no, she waslike no, she was like actually,
this is the friend I pushed inthe playground, like my friend
Marin.
Um, she was like no, youweren't bad.
It's just like.
You know your mom couldn'thandle you.

(50:06):
She was like you were alwaystoo much too masculine, too
defiant, too obsessed with work,um, and she didn't like that.
And whenever I would not dosomething that she wanted, she
wouldn't like that.
And she was like I justremember you always tried to be
good, always tried to do theright thing, work hard, but it

(50:29):
never was enough.
And that was so mind blowingFor me to hear her say that,
partially because she was thefriend, friend that was like, oh
my god, you know.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
But also is because like that is so different from
now, how like from how I sawmyself sounds like looking at
that little infected thing likewhat it wants, like, if you
imagine, talking to it for aminute.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Hmm, I want my mom to acknowledge and say that she's.
And she'd say yeah, just say,like I did, that I did those
things and I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
You don't even have to say sorry, but just like.
Yeah me, the problem was me, Idid, I did things.
Um, so she wants to beunburdened, stripped of the
responsibility of being bad andinfected.
Yeah, I, I want.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, just like some, yeah, I, I want.
Yeah.
Just like.
Some like accountability, butat least just like, yeah, it
isn't just you like, you're notjust crazy.
Um, I want, I want to.
Um, it's weird, huh, huh, to beas To be herself and not be

(52:15):
hated.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Which to be herself and not be hated.
So then, the one of you that'sdoing the hating, yeah.
Can you get in contact withthat part?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Does it look like anything?

Speaker 2 (52:32):
I think it's just me, the one that I identify with.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
I guess it's like the adult like reasonable part,
that's like the adult reasonablepart hates the little something
yeah, yeah but you told me thatyour reasonable side sees it
differently, but that there'sthis emotional self-hatred that
comes in.
Huh interesting, I don't knowwell, when you feel the

(53:02):
self-hatred, do you feel itanywhere physically?

Speaker 2 (53:10):
I just feel now more the relief that that I'm
admitting to it, so I can'treally find the, the self-hatred
kind of winds around everythinglike.
It winds around, like, likethis, like a, like a stupid
thing.
Like if I post a reel on theinstagram and it doesn't do well
, I'm like, ah, it's, it'sbecause everyone like that.

(53:31):
That part of me came outthrough the real like I'm trying
to, I'm trying to like, uh,give some space to talk through
the, the bitterness and theanger, and then people see it
and they don't like it, right,like.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
So it's just tentacle or something that's yeah, like
it's.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
It's a disease and people like feel the disease and
so they don't like it um yeah,so I think it's part of like the
world hates it, like I'mconvinced that the world would
hate it and then I'm trying tostuff it down or trying to
prevent people from hating it sothe part of you that is hating

(54:08):
on that little, little marchingchild, little stomping child, is
doing, but it's doing a certainjob, which is protecting it
from being seen by the world.
Yeah, there's now this imagethat popped in my mind.
That is like the two sides ofme.

(54:31):
That's like my mom and my dad.
They hate each other and theyhate each other and the my dad
is like the masculine, you know,obsessive, compulsive work,
hard working, and the mom islike the erratic, explosive,
like angry, childish side, andthose two sides hate each other

(54:55):
um what's?

Speaker 1 (54:55):
what part do they play in the story?

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I think those are the two parts of me that are hate,
like battling okay inside, Ithink.
Not sure, I don't know.
I don't know if I'm makingsense.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
This is all just like it's that you've described a
story in which there's thismother who is very, very
punishing of you anytime youtake on the father role, but
then the father role is the onlyplace where you can find safety
.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
You're in a bind constantly.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
She's.
When she would get really drunkand angry, she would scream at
me like you're just like yourfather, you just you're just,
you're an asshole just like yourfather.
She would say that a lot, um,and I remember there was a part
of me that felt like good, likekind of felt this vindictive,
like not vindictive, but justlike good.
I'm glad I'm like my dad, youknow, like a relief, but like

(55:58):
bitter, like condescendingrelief, like I prefer to be that
side than the other side yeah,yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
It strikes me that there's this part of you like,
if we think about ifs, so you'vegot this battle of good and
evil inside of you, but thatgets really mucked up because
either side that you land on isconsidered evil by the other.
And then you've got this imageof this stomping child that is
aggressive.
And then you've got this coilwrapped around everything that

(56:32):
you're visualizing that its jobis to keep the stomping child at
bay, keep it so that nobody canever see that and it seems to
operate by by keeping thisself-hatred alive so that this
never, this part is never seen.

(56:52):
Does that feel accurate?

Speaker 2 (56:54):
yeah, the self-hatred is a little bit more of like
trying to suppress it.
Trying to suppress it andtrying to get other people to
own it too, so it's not just me.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Yeah, because, because what would happen if it
didn't suppress it?

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Then it would be all of me It'd be.
I am that thing and everyone'sgoing to hate me.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
And then you'd be I think I'm.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
I think the fear is that people are going to see me
like they see my mother.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I think that's what I'm so afraid of is just like I
don't want to be like my mother.
I don't want to be like her.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah.
So that ribbon, that coil, isplaying a super important part
by protecting you from beingseen the way that your terrorist
has seen.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
And then you'd be left and alone and unlovable.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
That self-hatred's doing a really important thing.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
What do you feel when you think of it that way?

Speaker 2 (58:02):
um, I wish I, I wish I could make sense of everything
.
I think that I don't understandwhen I feel so much of this
battle inside and then otherpeople say like oh, I wish you
can see yourself like we see you, and I'm like I don't

(58:23):
understand what that means.
Like why am I?
Why is this such a disconnect?
Why is it that everyone elsesees me as good and I don't feel
that way and I feel like I'mlike living a lie.
I wish it made more sense.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Yes, the way I'm thinking of it is if you believe
that this little stomping child, if it took over, would
resemble your mom and makepeople flee, then it's pretty
important not to let that partout and to keep it suppressed.
And the only way that you'vegot right now to do that is to
hate it and do everything youcan to tell it to never.

(59:00):
It can never see the light ofday, and if you tell something
it can never see the light ofday that kind of resembles
hatred yeah, so what do I do?
well, I mean, I guess I wonderif, when you think of this rib

(59:20):
of the self-hatred, part istrying to protect you and trying
to keep you loved and supportedand not alone, if you have any
compassion for that.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, but I also want compassion for the angry part.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
The stompy part, I guess.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
I always don't want to have it.
I want to give it back to her,but she won't take it, so it's
me.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Maybe it's not hers.
I mean, maybe it's just a setof beliefs you have about what
this angry, stompy thing can do,because it's never let out.
I mean, if you never let, if Iwere to, I'm watching lost right

(01:00:11):
now.
You know how they always have topush the button to make sure
the world doesn't explode yeahif I were to take you down there
and said hey, the world's goingto explode unless you push this
button.
You're going to believe that,unless you, that this button is
the only thing that prevents theworld exploding, and that
something about not pushing thatbutton, some monster is going

(01:00:32):
to come out and and destroyeverything, but we don't
actually know, because we keeppushing the button.
What if, when we stop pushingthe button, the monster comes
out and nothing happens?

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
The world doesn't explode.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
All you know is that you're pushing this button over
and over and over again Becausewe've never seen the little kid
come out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
So I stop pushing the button, maybe See if there's
anything that's actually reallyscary about that part of you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
I don't even know what that would look like.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
I imagine it's because it's a baseless fear.
I mean, it's a fear that wasdeveloped for a good reason,
because you were told.
It's like you know, John andJack were told that the world
would explode if they didn'tpush the button, but if they
don't push the button, there'snothing actually scary on the

(01:01:38):
other end not true?

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
oh well, I won't give it away if you haven't gotten
to this point of loss where theydon't push the button and
terrible things happened yeahyeah, I thought I remembered it,
as nothing terrible happened,but uh, tell me you know what
the writers have lost really, Imean good show, but they didn't.
They kind of winged it a lot ofit.

(01:02:03):
So, uh, yeah, I guess Iwouldn't know what else would
happen, what it would look likewhen I stop pushing the button.
Uh, I button, I, probably, Iprobably.
I mean the only thing, theclearest thing in my mind is

(01:02:24):
like I wouldn't spend so muchtime obsessing over, like trying
to find out why other peoplehave more success than I do,
yeah, and like be like, oh, theyhave more than they have, more
of this quality, and it'sbecause of me, you know, trying
to compare myself all the time Ithink right, because that's a

(01:02:47):
protector part.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
What, what ifs would say is this coil part of you is
trying to.
It's pushing the buttonconstantly, right, it's trying
to keep this, what we call anexile, exiled.
These are intolerable feelings,or the big fear, right?
The terrible thing that'll comeout, just just thanking your

(01:03:10):
protective parts for trying sohard and letting them.
Letting them drop the rope alittle bit and giving them the
assurance that you can take over.
Now that you can regulate youremotions, you can make people
love you, you are loved, thatyou can recognize, you can do
that kind of work.
That's much more adult andmature, instead of the
self-hatred that is theprotector part you have, because

(01:03:33):
that's what you were taught.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
What if I become like my mother?
That's the fear.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Well, how would that happen?
Just walk me through thatlogically.
How would you go from beingsomebody who is extremely aware
of how her behavior affectsothers and is takes a lot of
ownership over that and has herown little kid who she loves and

(01:04:02):
can't imagine terrorizing?
How would you go from that tosomebody who is abusive and mean
and can't take responsibilityand lives in denial just because
you stop hating yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
well, I'm worried about that, that the protective
part is what separates me fromher that is what differentiates
and, for example, like for herto be like I mean one thing is
like selfish or like you know,thinking about herself and
demanding things that she wantsfrom other people and getting

(01:04:41):
mad when they when they don't doit.
Right, like like you say thatI'm so nervous about, like even
like telling you how I am andtalking about my emotions or
what I like, then I go theopposite way, where I'm walking
in and I'm like I become selfish, right, like, become like
self-involved and narcissistic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Even though that's never how narcissism has ever
developed.
Maybe that would happen withyou.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
It's like the superego and then let the id out
.
You know what I mean.
That's what I I'm afraid of.
You just become a child andlike, hangs out and, yeah,
thrashes around emotionally andphysically right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Well, what I imagine would happen is, if you let your
it out a little bit and youstarted asking for things that
you wanted, you'd probably get alot of positive feedback, and
maybe you'd get a little bit ofnegative feedback too, and then
you could respond to that I justhad like a like, a like feeling

(01:05:44):
of nausea when you said thatthe negative, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I mean, like when we get into these like opening up
raw episodes, I feel like I'mlike reacting all sorts of ways.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
It's a scary risk.
It's asking you to jump off ofa really huge platform and do
things that might get yourejected.
But this is the thing right.
You can either have theself-hatred that comes in and
rejects you every day, or youcan test some things out, take

(01:06:20):
some risks, maybe get a littlebit rejected and then respond to
it yourself with your actualself right that says okay, maybe
, maybe I don't go that far,maybe that's the boundary.
I found it.
You try another one.
I have a really hard timebelieving that you are going to
metamorphose into a totallydifferent person with a severe

(01:06:42):
personality disorder, justbecause you decide.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
I mean, you know how like my obsession is always
fearing that I actually have apersonality disorder.
Yeah, one time Caitlin, ourfriend, was like your
personality disorder?
Is that you think you have apersonality disorder?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Well, because what is a personality disorder?
Is it the stomping child or isit the protective actions?
The protective parts that rule,that come in and won't allow the
inner self to breathe at all.
They say you know you're bad,you're bad.
I got to do everything I can.
I've got to deny reality.
I've got to be mean to people.
I've got to tell them it'stheir fault.
I've got to victimize myself.
I've got to do absolutelyanything I can to never let

(01:07:25):
myself out, because the lasttime myself was out I was a
little kid and I was tortured bythe people who were supposed to
care for me, and that can'tever happen again.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
And that's a terrible , terrible thing.
Yeah, and it's also over.
Is it Well, if you block yourmother, it is Ugh.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
That makes sense.
Now I'm it's making.
A minute ago I was kind of likewhy don't I do you know like?
But now I I'm it's making.
A minute ago I was kind of likewhat did I do you know like?
But now I it's all it kind ofthe parentified version of me
Trying to squash down the realor like more unregulated I don't

(01:08:13):
want to say regulated,uncontrolled part of me,
emotional.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
If this were a therapy session, I'd be trying
to lead you here instead oftelling things.
But I have a feeling that thatlittle part of you that really
wants to be acknowledged by yourmother could use some
acknowledgement from you andsome forgiveness and love and
compassion and warmth from you.
And love and compassion andwarmth from you.

(01:08:42):
Maybe Maybe Probably would haveworked better if I'd led you
there myself.
Maybe, one day Maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Well, for now, we'll keep on hating it.
It's not that I keep when Ikeep hating it.
It just feels like how it?
It feels like a band-aid,unless she actually does it, or
at least like someone elserecognizes it.
I think maybe that's why intherapy, maybe that's why
therapy exists, but that when wego through these exercises of

(01:09:17):
like coming in contact withthese unhealed parts, that
sometimes the therapist steps inand like leads and says, like I
see that and I feel compassion,and then and then leads the
person to do it themselves.
Like there, there does feellike something.
If it doesn't feel enough, Ihave to keep like patting myself

(01:09:39):
.
It's like okay, you're okay,kibbe, you're, you're good.
Um, because it is the fear thatother people will hate it
anyway, like I might be.
Like no, no, it's okay that Ifeel this way, but then, like
someone else is going to be likeyou're too mean, I'm going to
break up with you right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
So you're probably not going to get that from your
mom, because in order for her tomean it, she'd have to go to a
place that's much scarier thanthis place yeah, you're right so
how can you get it from otherpeople?
How, like even logically, what,what, how could this happen?

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
I mean this is helping it doesn't click.
Yet it doesn't feel like oh, Iactually feel good about myself.
The self-hatred's gone.
But I think the more you andthe people I love say the
counter evidence of actuallyyou're good, I lock that away in

(01:10:36):
my mind and have that asactually you're good.
You know like I locked thataway in my mind and have that as
like okay, but I I think I'mnot entirely bad.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
so it's a little, it just sits there, but I think
seeing them and like admittingthat all these parts that are at
play is like unpleasant buthelpful what if you took that
little kid by the hand andwalked it around the block,
metaphorically meaning?

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
you took her into the living room and sat with your
husband and said this is thepart of me that I'm most afraid
of you seeing, and I'm going tosit here with you and with it
for five minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Okay, in a way, I feel like it is like that when
I'm with my son.
Like because I'm able to belike compassionate, you know,
like when he has emotions I cando that for him.
But I guess, yeah, parentmyself, I guess in the same way.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
See it's exposure.
Don't push the button for fiveminutes.
See what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
Next episode you're going to have a really different
story.
You're like maybe you shouldn'tkeep pushing that button, like
how much you get locked downhere and like maybe get Mr Echo
Just like you know, just keepdoing.
Desmond ran away but you knowwe could find him, get him back.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
I told you I'm naming my kid Desmond, right, and I
wouldn't.
I basically just handed Jasonthis edict that that's our
child's name and he thought itwas like some deep personal
meeting, but actually it wasjust from Lost.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
That's so funny.
I mean Desmond's the greatestcharacter.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
So good on you yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
He nailed like the whole time.
He was like excellent, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Great hair, great accent, great hair.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Great shirt Constantly On an island with no
washing machines, just.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Waking up every two hours to push a button.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
It's like having an infant for three straight years.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Oh God, oh my God.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
I know straight years , oh god oh my god, I know well.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Thank you for the therapy session you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
I got to practice a concept which was thrilling, um,
okay.
Well guys, I've got a littleproject for all of you.
Okay, kibbe, can you get yourlittle stomping child to come
out just for a few seconds?
Fine, is she here?

(01:13:26):
Fine, yeah, she's here.
Yeah, it's me.
Hey guys, if you like Kibbe'slittle stomping child and want
it to feel loved and healed,please give us a five-star
rating on Apple Podcasts andSpotify and leave a little
comment and Kibbe will be healed.

(01:13:47):
Deal.
So sorry, everyone.
So sorry.
That legitimately helped,though.
That's the funny thing, becausethat whole part of you that's
like I'm not doing it.
That's true, I'm not worthy.
That's true.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
That's true, accurate .

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Okay.
Well, it's time to get mylittle tiny child out and work
on my dissertation, so wish meluck as I descend into the pits
of hell.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
We'll all go there together, we'll all sit in hell
and, you know, get a tan.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
All right, I love you little tiny child.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Thanks, love you too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
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(01:14:51):
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