Situationships, friends with benefits, and other fancy names for sex without commitment

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What happens when you have sex with someone you like, get along with, and trust, but don't want to call it a "serious relationship"? In this episode, we explore the types of casual relationships such as friends with benefits and situationships, where the lines between friendship, passion, and intimacy blur. We unravel personal journeys from casual friendships to full-blown romances, tackling controversial ideas like the "Ladder Theory" and how they stack up against real-life experiences. Different perspectives from relationship experts such as Esther Perel and John Gottman offer diverse insights into passion and intimacy within relationships. Whether it's the allure of seduction, the role of alcohol, or the evolutionary aspects of these connections, we dive into all the nuances that make these relationships both appealing and challenging.

We also give evidence-based strategies and practical tools to navigate these complex emotional terrains. With the help of KulaMind, our platform offering step-by-step guidance through relationship skills, we emphasize the importance of communication, self-awareness, and clear definitions in fostering healthier relationships. Reflect on your motivations and needs, and learn how to support those around you in their relational journeys. 

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• If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.

• Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.

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Episode Transcript

Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our
Friends, the podcast for peoplewith loved ones struggling with
mental health.
We share insights from science,clinical practice and our
personal lives to help yousupport friends and family with
mental or emotional problems.
I'm your host, jacquelineTrumbull, a former bachelor
contestant during clinicalpsychology PhD candidate at Duke

(00:21):
University, and this is myco-host, dr Kibbe McMahon.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:25):
Hi, I'm Dr Kibby clinical psychologist and
co-founder of KulaMind, theofficial community for this
podcast.
Check out our websiteK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom to get
support navigating the ups anddowns of your most emotionally
challenging relationships.

Jacqueline Trumbull (00:38):
And if you want to share your story or
questions with us for futureepisodes, tap the link in your
show notes to text us or emailus at littlehelpforourfriends at
gmailcom.
We hope you love the podcast.
Hey Little Helpers, Welcomeback yet again.
And to those of you watching uson YouTube, welcome.

(00:59):
This is very exciting that youcan see our faces.
So weird, so not used to beinglike on camera, but yeah, um.
So today I think we've got apretty fun one for you all.
We're going to be talking aboutfriends with benefits, a rather
polarizing topic.

(01:20):
Um, looking into the research,I do have a bit of a question
about definitions like is theresearch truly defining this?
Are there some maybelimitations to how it's being
measured?
It's a little bit difficult topeel apart from, like
situationships or hookups orcasual sex.

(01:40):
So we'll probably kind of talkabout the whole bucket of those
topics, but with a special focuson friends with benefits.
But first I'll kick it over toyou, kibbe, to talk about how
you can help us withrelationship dynamics and maybe
complicated relationships withCoolamind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:59):
Yeah, made Kulamind for you guys really.
So KulaMind is a platform andcommunity that teaches people
all these strategies that we'vebeen talking about on the pod
Strategies for breaking toxicdynamics and really difficult
relationships with people withpersonality disorders or other
kinds of serious mental illness,like addiction and teach us

(02:22):
like really evidence-basedskills for how to heal for
emotional abuse, communicatebetter, learn how to find
healthier relationships, how todeepen your connections with
people, how to break free of allthe kind of different neuroses
and core beliefs that we haveswirling around our heads that
get in the way of us having ahappy life and good

(02:44):
relationships swirling aroundour heads that get in the way of
us having a happy life and goodrelationships.
So we do that and KulaMindthrough one-on-one coaching and
community support.
We'll do webinars and also Ireally wanted Cool Mind to be a
program that could be accessiblefrom anywhere.
So if you are struggling, youcan text your coach and someone
will walk you through theseevidence-based skills so you

(03:06):
don't have to figure that out onyour own.
You know when you're feelinglike the most scared and alone.
So if you want to check it outKulamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom
I'll put the link in the shownotes for you to check it out.
But also, if you have anyquestions, there is a place in

(03:30):
the show notes where you couldclick like send uh, kibby and
jacqueline a text so you couldask us directly even just to
chat and say hi.

Jacqueline Trumbull (03:33):
Yeah, I remember in my last relationship
just constantly like reachingout to you or my mom or other
people, being like how do I talkto this man?
What am I like communicatingthat's making him react this way
and and it would have been niceto, instead of burning out my
friends and family, to have someprofessional help me with these
conversations.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:50):
So, yeah, that's the idea, kind of like a
therapist in your pocket,because friends can be helpful
but sometimes like they'rebiased.
Right, they have their opinions, they have their feelings about
it, they get tired.
They might not know the youknow the actual interventions or
strategies that can help youthrough something like that.
So that's why we wanted to makeCool Minds, so to help people

(04:13):
in a real way.

Jacqueline Trumbull (04:15):
Awesome.
Well, back to our topic at handfriends with benefits.
Is this what comes to mind foryou, kibbe, when you hear
friends with benefits, like doyou have immediate judgments
about it?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:27):
Well, when you were just saying the
different kinds of friends withbenefits, I really didn't know
that at this point because I'mso old, but I don't know the
difference between asituationship and a friends with
benefits and casual hookups.
I, I don't know like I I thinkthat I, um, I've, I have like

(04:49):
relatively less datingexperience that I'd feel like I
jump from relationship torelationship and I've only had a
few friends with benefitssituations.
But what?
My question is like what?
What are those?
What's the difference between afriends with benefits situation
?
Ship.

Jacqueline Trumbull (05:04):
Yeah, so I'm OK.
Again, I don't think theresearch does like the most
amazing job differentiatingthese, but what I would say is
that a friend with benefits issomebody who you have already
demonstrated like, you'vealready created a friendship
with.
You already have some level ofintimacy and trust with that
person, and then you add in afriendship with.

(05:26):
You already have some level ofintimacy and trust with that
person, and then you add in asexual component.
The kind of idea behind it isyou're getting casual sex, but
with somebody that you trust andknow, versus like casually
hooking up.
It might mean you know you meeta stranger in a bar, you hook
up, you don't know if you'llever see them again, and it goes

(05:49):
from there.
Situationship is I mean, I didnot see like a formal definition
for situationship because I wasspecifically looking at friends
with benefits research, but Iwould kind of define it as, like
you know, you have starteddating somebody but it hasn't

(06:13):
become defined and it's unclearif it will become defined.
But it's not like you.
Just it's not like youspecifically started out as
friends and kind of came to thisagreement to have sex.
So, like you know, I've hadmany situationships where I was

(06:33):
dating somebody and one of usdidn't want commitment, but that
wasn't explicitly stated to theother person, and so we found
ourselves in like a datingsituation where maybe there was
sex, maybe there wasn't, butboth of us, or at least one of
us, is probably confused okay,so wait.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:48):
Friends with benefits.
But can't friends with benefitsbecome a situationship if one
one person actually wants todate?
I think this is one of theabout the how, their
expectations and how committedyou are and knowing, like, what
the level of commitment is yeah,I mean, let's see if google
scholar has an actual definitionof a situationship.

Jacqueline Trumbull (07:13):
Um, so this is from 2024, a romantic
trajectory that has receivedlittle attention.
Literature situationships,which is a colloquial term, used
to describe a complexrelationship situation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:28):
Okay, that's big, yeah, so you could be
friend.
You could have a casual hookupor be friends first, then start
to have sex and then, ifsomebody catches feelings, then
it's a situationship yeah, well,maybe so.

Jacqueline Trumbull (07:44):
Another one says, however, situationships
may be experiences of romanticlove without increases in
commitment, because, I mean,it's the lack of commitment that
really defines thesituationship, otherwise it'd be
called a relationship what doescommitment mean?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:56):
does that mean exclusivity, or does that
mean like?

Jacqueline Trumbull (08:01):
yeah, I mean look this out as like
research.
Um, yeah, I mean I, you know,like I saw, I saw one research
paper that was it was talkingabout friends with benefits, but
it was basically asking peoplelike to to sort of define their
last sexual experience like, wasit casual, was it in a
committed relationship?

(08:22):
And that to me does not seemlike a friends with benefits
situation.
I saw other research papersthat were more defined, but you
know, I think it's.
There are a lot ofconsiderations when we think
about friends with benefits,like, is this just a friend that
you hook up with a few timesand when you're drunk, and

(08:43):
that's kind of fun?
Friend that you hook up with afew times and when you're drunk,
and that's kind of fun?
Is this an extremely closefriend who you are having sex
with regularly over a longperiod of time?
Is this an acquaintance who youbasically know but like, if you
lost the friendship it wouldn'tbe that big of a deal.
You know, I mean it's just,it's a really difficult
phenomenon to define, and so youknow there were findings, and

(09:04):
I's a really difficultphenomenon to define, and so you
know there were findings andI'll talk about them because
they're interesting but at thesame time I think they should be
taken with a grain of salt andprobably what we'll do in this
podcast a little bit is talkabout the dynamics that probably
help her make friends withbenefits situations a little bit
more complicated just from ourpsychological perspective.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:28):
Makes sense.
Yeah, I'm just trying to thinkabout the friends with benefits
or situationships I've been in.
They all blend together.

Jacqueline Trumbull (09:38):
so I guess in my mind I mean, did you ever
have a situation where you had afriend like a defined friend
and the two of you decided tohave uncommitted casual sex
together for an indefiniteperiod of time?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:53):
I think so.
I think the times that I'vedone that I've hooked up with a
friend by the way, I'm mostlydated friends, right so I
actually like I don't don't haveto think different, but um, and
it it did vary about like whichone was more into the
relationship, more like wantedit to be a committed thing.
But yeah, I haven't, I haven'tsaid like okay, we are just

(10:17):
having sex with no commitment.
I've only had maybe one that waslike we have sex regularly but
we're clearly not in arelationship but, eventually I
realized that he did like me andso we did end up dating, even
though I didn't want to.

Jacqueline Trumbull (10:32):
And then I've had many situations where
we're just hooking up and I Ireally wanted a commitment and
they were like you know, well,one of the questions is there
are some there's there'sresearch that's looking at a
gender breakdown, which is sortof an obvious thing to do
because, traditionally speaking,women are supposed to be more
commitment oriented.
They're trying to lock insomeone who will stick by their

(10:55):
side and then men are spreadingtheir seed.
That's sort of an evolutionaryperspective that is reductionist
.
But the question is why dopeople get into these
relationships?
And one finding found that therewas kind of a moderating effect
of relationship thoughtfulnessand alcohol use.

(11:19):
So basically.
So basically in general, likethe more you drink, the more
especially women are likely toget into a friends with benefits
situation.
But the moderating effect ishow thoughtful you are and

(11:43):
intentional you are about yourrelationships.
So if you are somebody who isintentionally looking for a
specific kind of relationship,you are less likely to enter
into a friends with benefitssituation, no matter how much
you drink, which makes sense,I'm going to say.
The overall evidence that Ifound was that friends with
benefits confer more positiveresults than negative, which was

(12:07):
surprising to me, and I thinkit's surprising to the
researchers, because you can see, in these research papers,
they're all like, they're alltrying to find the pitfalls.
They're all like well, whatabout what about this thing?
What about the like?
What if you ruin the friendship?
What if?
What about this thing?
What about that Like?
What if you ruin the friendship?
What if you know?

(12:28):
So it's all like, because Ithink there's some, there's just
an expectation that this isn'tgoing to go well, which I
understand, because I also hearfriends with benefits and I'm
like, yeah, that's not going togo well.
And so to hear that maybe itdoes, I'm taking with a grain of
salt because of how thesethings are defined and measured

(12:49):
and everything like that.
But I also don't want to let myown bias and judgment tell me
that oh well, this can't beright.
These have got to be bad foryou, because you know there are
merits.
But right off the bat, hearingthat mostly women are more
likely to get into this becauseof alcohol use, that's not like
a great sign.
You know.

(13:09):
I mean, it's that's.
It's how a lot of relationshipsstart.
But if you're continuing in onthem because you're drinking a
lot, it's like, eh, there'sanother kind of aspect of it
where it's like women are morelikely to have casual sex than

(13:37):
men because they're hoping for acommitted relationship to come
out of it.
This is very familiar to me inmy personal experience and it's
not.
I mean the thinking isn't likeif I, if I fuck this dude at the
bar, then maybe he'll like wanta relationship with me.
It's more, we've been on a fewdates and there's this
expectation and there's pressureand it's like I don't know, it

(14:04):
seems like if this is going togo anywhere, then this is the
next natural step.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:08):
Are you saying you haven't had a lot of
one night stands?
Have you had a lot of likehookups, where you just meet
them and go home with them?

Jacqueline Trumbull (14:15):
Yeah, I love one night stands.
I mean I used to, but there wasno, there was no.
I never wanted to see any ofthose people again.
That was the whole point of itfor me.
So this is the thing, like Ifeel like I'm the exact wrong
market for a friends withbenefits situation, but I am the
right market for casual sex, soI don't have any problem with

(14:36):
casual sex.
I mean, I shouldn't say I haveno problem with it because I
think a lot of times it's donevery badly and it's approached
very badly.
But I've never dated a friend.
I'm not attracted to my friendsLike I don't.
The idea of just having likesex with a friend is completely

(14:56):
unappealing to me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:58):
So you've never had a friends with
benefits situation.
It's only been like.

Jacqueline Trumbull (15:03):
I've had.
I've had, I would say, morelike situationships that were
uncomplicated, so like that'sthe thing, finding them as
uncomfortable.
I've certainly had complicatedsituationships, but I've also
had uncomplicated situationswhich I would define as like
guys who we were never friendsto start out with.

(15:23):
We started off in a romanticsphere and then, because our
life took us in differentdirections or because there was
something about them that Iexplicitly did not want to
commit to, I could still hook upwith them and have a good time.
But I mean, I'm thinkingspecifically like somebody I
dated in Charleston when I wasthere.

(15:44):
Neither of us were gunning forcommitment, you know, like I had
just, I was still kind ofhurting from being in love with
someone else and you know, heand I dated like very regularly
and we had an intimaterelationship but there was no

(16:05):
exclusivity and I didn't reallycare.
And then for years after that,when I would visit Charleston, I
would go out with him and wewould hook up and that felt
totally fine.
I had another situation likethat, um, when I visited my, my
sister, one of her friends Iwould like hook with.

(16:27):
But there were a few thingsthat made this feel okay.
I mean one like, yeah, I had.
No, I didn't think that witheither guy we had any long term
potentiality.
And there was some.
There was something about eachof them that I was just like no,
this isn't something I'mlooking for in the long term.
It's like, no, this isn'tsomething I'm looking for in the

(16:47):
long term.
We lived in different.
I mean, with the first guy, wedid live in Charleston
concomitantly for a little while, but mostly like we didn't.
We lived in different places.
Even when I was in Charleston,I didn't want to meet a guy in
Charleston to date, seriouslybecause I wanted to move to New
York.
So there was just somethingabout it that made the
commitment unattractive to me aswell, and it never felt like

(17:09):
other.
How do I put this?
Other forces really intervened,like what I think is the
inherently bad idea aboutfriends with benefits is that
you have a friend, so you, youstart with something that you

(17:29):
can destroy, a friendship that'svaluable to you theoretically,
um, and then you know and withina friendship there's already
like you treat each otherdifferently than you treat
strangers.
Um, you know, there there'skindness, there there's
reciprocation, there, there'ssomething valuable there, and
then you add in a sexual elementFor an indefinite period of

(17:56):
time.
There's a lot of intimacy there.
There's a friendship intimacyand there's a sexual intimacy.
Lot of intimacy there.
There's a friendship intimacyand there's a sexual intimacy.
And why would you have gotteninto that intimacy and risked
the friendship if there wasn'tsomething kind of inherently

(18:17):
like that you like value overand above the friendship.
I don't know, it's hard toexplain, like if you're willing
to risk the friendship for sexand it seems you are drawn to
that person for something otherthan what the friendship gives
you, so you're probably at thevery least attracted to them,
right?
So if you have a friend, itmeans you have an intimate bond,

(18:39):
but you're also attracted tothem.
That feels that is hard tosustain over a long period of
time in your situationships did.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:49):
Were there any ones that you felt like you
got along with as like, becamefriends, and then still
identified qualities about themthat you didn't want to commit
to?
You know what I mean.
Like you're, you're saying thatyou have the friendship plus
the sexual intimacy.
Should be like, should lead tosome kind of relationship.

(19:11):
But what if it's like well, wejust get along, we're friends,
we hang out, we enjoy eachother's company and we have sex,
but we don't want to date.

Jacqueline Trumbull (19:20):
Yeah, I guess I just feel like the
friendship would have to befairly casual.
Then I like, with the situation, with the situations I've had,
we did not have a friendshipfirst.
There wasn't anything to riskand we didn't have that.
I was also treated like I wasdating them.
I think that's important too.

(19:41):
Like I'm not somebody who canjust have a friendship and like
eat pizza with the guys anddrink beer and then when one of
them is like ready to have sex,he's like hey, jacklyn, you want
to come to the bedroom?
Like that's just not somethingthat I could do.
So the situations I had, it waslike I'd come to Charleston,
he'd take me to dinner or we'dgo to a party.
I was his date.
You know it was an explicitlylike romantic situation the

(20:03):
whole time, even if we weren'teither of us really looking for
commitment.
But it's not like we had somelike trust and intimacy and
friendship that reallysuperseded that.
So that's what's hard for me tounderstand.
I guess I can definitelyunderstand falling for your
friend and deciding like maybewe should give this a try, but

(20:25):
just having, maybe I just don'tlike, maybe I just don't value
sex enough.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:46):
Yeah, I think it's like the opposite for me,
because maybe it's just the waythat we orient to men, or orient
to other people like you datemore, like you go out on dates.
You orient to people in adating context.
Even if I were like technicallyon a date, I orient myself
towards people like friends.
So even if it's like if I have,if there's romantic feelings or
whatever, we're not explicitlyon a date, we're like hanging
out as friends and maybe you'llturn to something more.
So my, like, all my you knowrelationships have been friends
with benefits, but do you?

(21:08):
feel, oh, they've been friends,and then you friends, and then
you, and then you startedhooking up, and then you, but
this is like what, what is thestage in the beginning that got
that connected you to like foryou you probably have dated more
, so you started out as like aromantic situation.
I've had more like just casualfriends that have turned right,

(21:28):
but that's, I don't date right,I don't go out on dates.
So anyone I've gotten to knowthat's new has been like friend
first, you know.

Jacqueline Trumbull (21:36):
But when you started hooking up were you?
Did you do that with anintention to see where it goes,
or was it purely with theintention to remain uncommitted
and casual?
There's a couple people that itwas like uncommitted.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:51):
But actually most of my boyfriends have
started out that way, most of,except for except for alex, my
current husband, right, I thinkmost of my relationships have
been.
I've gotten out of arelationship, we, this is so fun
or not fun, kind of lonely.
And then I hook up with afriend or someone that I know
and I'm like ah, this is mychance to have like like I I'm,

(22:16):
I don't like, um, uh, like the,the one night stands, because I
don't feel attracted to peoplethat I don't have some kind of
dynamic with, like, even ifthey're like handsome, I don't
want to have sex with them untilI kind of know them and have
some sort of like connectionthere.
So it's like OK, I know thatthere's a connection and we hook
up and then suddenly it turnsinto more.

(22:36):
So we're just bad atsituationships, I just really
good at them.

Jacqueline Trumbull (22:45):
You know, ladder theory.
Ladder theory was this theorythat some dude in 2005 wrote or
maybe it was 1995, wrote in likemicrosoft paint, where women
have two ladders the friend'sladder and the real ladder.
That very much describes me andlike a lot of guys like guys
don't when they're on thefriend's ladder ladder.
So basically the theory is menhave only one ladder and all

(23:08):
women are on the ladder exceptgirls who are wolf ugly.
So this isn't a very offensivetheory, by the way, like it's
hilarious if you don't getoffended easily or if you're not
very politically, but it's likeclearly this guy was angry with
with women when he wrote um sobasically, like all like normal
looking girls are on one ladderfor men and they're they're just

(23:30):
at different points on theladder.
You know, there's the women thatthey're like explicitly trying
to have sex with date, whatever,and then there are just like
friends or, you know, there'slike other women who they would
have sex with but they're justmaybe not like actively pursuing
, whereas women have two ladders, the friend's ladder and the
real ladder, and men never knowwhich ladder they're on.

(23:50):
I guess some men on the realladder know, because women are
like pursuing them or having sexwith them.
But the idea is that men willoften try to jump from the
friend's ladder onto the realladder.
The real ladder is men thatwomen are willing to have sex
with and then they'll get kickedinto and fall into the abyss.
So, basically, like, men whoare really on the friend's
ladder will try to do all thesethings for women, thinking that

(24:14):
this is, thinking that this isgoing to get them onto the real
ladder, and then women haveabsolutely no intention of ever
putting them on the real ladder,ever having sex with them, and
so as soon as the man then makesthem like a sexual or romantic
move, they get kicked off bothladders and just fall into the
abyss.
That's very much me.
I definitely have a friend'sladder and a real ladder and

(24:35):
ladder jumping is very difficult.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:38):
That's funny.
I mean, I would have said thisis similar thing, except my
husband and I have been bestfriends for 18 years with
absolutely no funny business,like super platonic.
He was my wedding officiant andmy last wedding yeah, we've

(25:01):
been friends with each other'spartners and really there was
like like no, I hope thisdoesn't hurt his feelings when
he listens to it but there's nofeelings and then suddenly like
we're married with a kid.
So I don't know how.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't see the locked in thefriend zone thing.
I don't really understand yeah,my daughter is more like a

(25:21):
cliff.

Jacqueline Trumbull (25:22):
I don't know my husband has married you
twice.
Kibby he married you once to joeand then once to himself yeah,
no, it's funny because I haveguys who will spend money on me
or take me out or something, andJason will be like Jacqueline,
they're trying to get with you,they're waiting for me to make a

(25:45):
mistake.
I get that, but they're on thebad ladder.
They're not on the real ladder,so it doesn't matter what they
ladder, they're not on the realladder, so it doesn't matter
what they do.
They're not on the correctladder, so you're safe.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:57):
But do you make that clear to them, like if
they're taking you out tosomething and you're like, okay,
this guy's friend zoning me,but he's just taking me out, but
he still thinks he's climbingthat ladder.
Are you clear?
Or are you still like he, he,maybe?

Jacqueline Trumbull (26:14):
uh, I don't have a conversation about the
ladder theory with them, ah, butI do so no I mean these days
I'm like I have a boyfriend letme talk excessively about
Successively to you.
Yeah, I mean I'll talk about.

(26:39):
I feel like I will give sort ofmarkers of disinterest.
But If they want to deludethemselves, they're welcome to.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:42):
It's fine.
What has situationships givenyou Like?
What do you?
What did you like or not like?

Jacqueline Trumbull (26:51):
about them.
Well, most of my situationshipshave been situations where I
wanted them to wind up in arelationship.
So in a sense they gave menothing because they didn't pan
out.
None of them panned out.
No, no, not well, no, eric, myfirst mega narcissist guy, I

(27:16):
mean, he panned out for about amonth and then he unpanned and
then, you know, that was justlike a.
That was a complicatedrelationship which was actually
technically very simple, but Ididn't understand that, uh, it
was simple and that he was nevergoing to take me seriously,
even if he said, said he was andhe was cheating you know, the
whole time.
But that's our.

(27:36):
And I guess in college I had asituationship that did pan out,
but I, after Eric, I very muchwas like if I could sniff that
it was a situationship, I wasout quickly.
So I had a couple of situationsthat maybe lasted like a month
or two, but then I'd be like assoon as there was, you know,

(27:59):
good evidence that this wasn't,that he wasn't serious, I cut
and ran.
There was one where I dated aguy in Hawaii for six months.
That was the longest situationship, but that's because he
showed a lot of interest.
He was very consistent.
We traveled to meet each otherand he had a good reason for not

(28:20):
wanting to be in a committedrelationship, which was that he
lived in Hawaii.
And then when I could tell, ohwait, this really for real isn't
going anywhere, then I cut itIn terms of the ones where it
was out of tone, like theCharleston guy.
It was just like safe, funsomething to do on a Friday
night.
You know, it was like funseeing him, it was fun being

(28:41):
taken out, but the sex is never.
That's never the reward for me,because sex is very it's,
it's's, um, it's like sayingthat sex isn't, it's, it's in
very easy supply, like I can goout and get sex wherever.
So like I'm not gonna, I'm notgonna like risk things for sex.

(29:06):
Really I'm not gonna like, ohmy god, sorry, hi, youtube,
here's my cat.
Um, yeah, I'm usually in it forthe dates being treated special
, having a fun, dynamicconnection, and then maybe the
sex is fun because it's likemore novel or it doesn't really
matter, or I'm in it for arelationship just saying, yeah,

(29:33):
I.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:36):
I guess I'm the opposite of the sense that
there's.
There have been situationshipswhere I'm in it just for the sex
and that was like the main part.
Like there's one person that wewere just set up because I had
just gotten out of myrelationship and I wanted just
like a like cheer me up, hook up.
My friend was like my friend isslutty.

(29:58):
He's a slutty guy, you know,and he's supposed to be good in
bed.
So I like, as soon as we hungout, we just I was like, well,
basically, let's just hook up.
I was like, give me a massage,or so I forgot, I think.
I just like went right and uh,because I didn't care, and that
just became like a purely sexualrelationship.

(30:20):
I don't like we became friendsand eventually we dated, even
though, like I probablyshouldn't have, but that was
like a long-standing, even likeI I stopped it when I got into a
relationship and then got backinto it.
It's like a second rebound andit was purely for the sex and I

(30:40):
I like a really what was it?
Was it a situationship?
Because I don't think either ofus wanted the commitment, but
it was like we were togetherjust for the sex and what was
cool about that was I'mrealizing now I mean, I'm just
like working through a bunch ofstuff now anyway about like

(31:00):
being myself and not working andperforming for a relationship,
like not being useful for arelationship.
So I'm learning how to be myselfin intimacy for relationships.
So I'm learning how to like bemyself in an intimacy and with
that area, like since there wasno other expectation or
commitment, I could fully likeperform, like, perform sexually.

(31:24):
So I was a, the wholeconnection was sexual intimacy.
So it was really like I putthought into it.
It was more exploratory.
We would do different stuff.
I would experiment withdifferent things.
I would kind of experiment witha different like sexual persona
with him.
Like I was more like dominantor submissive, you know, like I

(31:45):
would explore the differentroles and like my sexual side,
but then as friends or dating,dating it was really sparse,
like I just we just didn't.
We like hung out and had a goodtime, but like I didn't connect
with him romantically.
That's terrible.

Jacqueline Trumbull (32:01):
He became my boyfriend what that makes
sense to me.
I would not be able to accessthat over the long term.
I don't think and that haseverything to do with, I don't
know, just me.
Stuff Like that's the.
What you said is basically why Iliked one night stands.
Now, I didn't have very many ofthem and I think if I had, I

(32:22):
actually would have probablyruined it.
But I think when I had a onenight stand, it wasn't about the
sex, it was about the freedomthat not knowing the person and
doing something taboo gave me.
And, yeah, I would be able toinhabit a different part of
myself and not care and be moreperformative or selfish or
whatever the case may be, and Iliked that.

(32:45):
So I suppose, if someone's ableto access that in a friends
with benefits situation, great.
But it's just hard.
It's hard for me to connectwith that, because a friend
isn't a stranger um, whoactually does have expectations
of who you are and ohinteresting those you need a
certain context and um knowsyour people, your other people,

(33:09):
you know, like me.
that would just be like the.
It would just be like boring,routine sex without any of the
seduction elements, like I'm allabout seduction, that's, that's
why I'll have sex.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:24):
It's like what seduces you the most?
What does seduction look likefor you?

Jacqueline Trumbull (33:30):
What does seduction look like for you?
Somebody treating me like I'mspecial, somebody making me feel
hot, sexy, me feeling like I'mgetting away with something
might be part of it.
Getting away with what?
Getting away with what?
Well, I mean getting away withlike something that other people

(33:54):
can't get away with.
Like somebody spending aninordinate amount of money on me
, or a one night stand whereit's like, yeah, I'm doing this,
even though it's everything youknow that my mother didn't
teach me.
It's like it goes againstthings.
You know, yeah, I just think afriend would cancel out all of

(34:16):
that.
I'd be like I'm not special.
We're specifically friends.
You treat me like one of theguys all the other times.
That's the point.
Otherwise it would be asituationship We'd be dating.
There'd be some sort ofromantic element.
So the only thing that makes mespecial is that, like I'm
somebody you have sex with Well,I'm just on the ladder Right,
like you're probably willing tohave sex with a bunch of

(34:38):
different women.
That's not like sex doesn'tmake me feel special at all.
Sex is.
It's kind of the oppositeactually.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:47):
Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull (34:47):
If a man wants me for sex, I'm like, yeah
, you don't actually care aboutwho I am at all.
So a friend who does care aboutwho I am, but not enough to
commit to me but just to havesex with me feels like I would
be undervalued.
Yeah, that's anti-semi.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:03):
As we're talking about that, like I've
been confused up until now.
I mean, I'm still kind ofconfused, but I think what we're
actually because I'm like thata friends with benefits
situation, shit, what is what is?
This is casual sex, but I thinkwhat's like?
What if?
What happens if you isolate thedifferent parts of a romantic
connection with someone.

(35:23):
Right like when, when, in anideal world, when you're
partnered with someone, you getthe exclusivity or expectations
that they will share a life withyou or do or show up in certain
ways for you reliably.
You get the I like to hang outwith them, friendship and I
respect them and I joined thecompany.

(35:43):
And then there's like thesexual chemistry, and then what
we're talking about is like allthese different relationships
that might have one or twopieces, but not all of them.
Well, the amazing thing is thatyou've just zeroed in on
Sternberg's triangular theory oflove which I think we talked

(36:04):
about on the podcast, but likeyears ago, so this is exactly a
theory.
I have such a bad memory sothis is so exciting to review.
I hold concepts because I'mlike tell me more.

Jacqueline Trumbull (36:10):
What's that ?
No, it's funny because it's atheory that's actually used to
study friends with benefits andthe idea is that there's like
these three parts of arelationship that make up the
triangle there's passion,intimacy and trust.
Let me make sure that's true.
Yeah, okay, so Sternberg'striangular theory of love is

(36:33):
that there are basically threeprongs of relationship it's
intimacy, passion and commitment, and that's basically exactly
what you just described.
The commitment is like I'mcommitting to doing this with
you.
We've got exclusivity, like youare my priority, something like
that.
Passion is mostly referring tolike sex and attraction, and

(36:55):
then intimacy is more just aboutlike trust, friendship, etc.
And people hypotheses,hypothesis that like right, that
friends with benefits would behigh on both passion and
intimacy and then low oncommitment, and what they
actually found was that it wasit was like moderately high on
intimacy and not high on passionor commitment.

(37:18):
So there wasn't actually thatmuch of a difference between
friends with benefits andfriends like if.
Looking at this theory, so theywere truly just friends with
benefits.
Now, like OK, if you're a woman, what is in this for you if you
don't have even like elevatedlevels of passion with this
person?
And I guess it's so.

(37:40):
To me that's like OK, then youare just in it for the sex.
I guess, and like the person,the only thing that makes you
want to do this is the fact thatyou trust this person and you
don't have to worry about themlike murdering you in an alley,
and that you know that makessome sense.
It doesn't.
I'm again.
I'm not the right market for it.
So it's like I don't judgeother people but I don't get it

(38:01):
personally.
That's like what I'manti-interested in.
I'd rather the risk of beingmurdered in an alley.
That makes it more likeinteresting and novel and
exciting to me.
I mean, I'm I'm sort of joking,but also not really Part of
what makes sex interesting to meis that I'm trusting somebody,
that yeah, yeah, part of whatmakes casual sex interesting.
I'm trusting somebody who maybedoesn't deserve it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:22):
Well, now I'm wondering.
I remember there's EstherPerel's Mating, a Captivity book
, and all of what Esther Pereltalks about with passion and
intimacy and trust are sometimeslike, um, they conflict.
Because, like passion anddesire is a little bit like
you're, you have to chase,you're, there's a distance,

(38:43):
there's like that, likemotivation and drive, whereas,
like in these friendships andand committed relationships,
there's that, thatpredictability, safety and trust
that might open up differentparts of sex but doesn't open up
that part of like ooh, I got towear something beautiful, like
I mean literally I could fart infront of my husband and we

(39:03):
still have sex later that day.
I mean like, I don't, I thinkthe passion, I completely kill
the passion, but I still thinkit still happens.
Do you fart in front of yourhusband completely?

Jacqueline Trumbull (39:14):
kill the passion, but it still.
I think it still happens.
Well, uh no, we do not do thatand we never will.
Oh my god.
So this is how you keep thepassion alive yeah, no, it
actually reminds me becausethere are two camps there's the
Esther Perel camp and there'sthe John Gottman camp, and they
probably have more overlap thanwe think.
But I hear those two campscriticizing each other a lot and
the Esther Esther Perel camp ismore about like you have to

(39:37):
maintain some level of intimacyin order for or sorry, some
level of mystery, for desire toexist, and one of the reasons
people stray is because there isno mystery anymore.
The John Gottman camp is likeno, you don't need mystery, you
know sexual like, awakening andattachment, etc.
It comes from true intimacy.

(39:57):
Um, and I'm more that's thePerel camp.
You know, like I think somesexual awakening or whatever
comes from intimacy.
But Jason and I are very muchlike we don't do anything gross
in front of each other, we don'ttell each other about gross
things.
We still look hot, like we goon dates, we dress up.

(40:20):
I mean I've done things to mybody to make it look ideal,
which we'll talk about nextepisode.
You know he's always workingout, he's like trying to keep
himself super hot.
It's a big, big, big part ofour relationship to maintain
like sexiness, um and so again.

(40:40):
So that just plays into likeI'm not the right market for a
friend with benefits, because afriend isn't going to care
enough to do anything like thatfor me.
And if they are, then are wereally friends?
Are we really just friends?
so maybe friends with benefitsare more the gotman.
Maybe they'd be more pulledinto like a gotman style
relationship dynamic it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:00):
So I'm trying to think am I one of the other?
I guess?
Okay, so we're saying gotman,is that gotman saying that
sexual connection and awakeninghappens in like really trusting
relationships where you havethat intimacy and respect and
almost kind of like stability,and Esperal's like no, you need

(41:22):
that little mystery in the chase, in the distance, to feel like
that sexual connection.
I feel like those are differentforms of sex for me because I
can see both sides.
I was more like of a sexualbeing in my situationships,
especially the ones so I wasreally obsessed with
situationships to the pointwhere I realized I was

(41:44):
emotionally unavailable becauseI was chasing these people who
were slightly like they would behooking up regularly, but
they'd be slightly like theywould.
We'd be hooking up regularly,but they'd be slightly like out
of reach, they didn't want it.
Like my first husband we datedfor we hooked up exclusively for
about a year and it took abouta year for him to actually call

(42:06):
me his girlfriend and I was like, obsessed and infatuated with
like why isn't he attaching?
Why, you know?
And now I realize it was like.
I was always like, oh well,what would have been if we're in
a committed relationship?
And I realized that he's justlike that.
Right, it wasn't like thesituation ship, it was him
anyway.
So just keep that in mind whereyou're like oh, if only we

(42:29):
committed it'll be different,like sometimes not yeah but I
was a certain kind of likesexual person.
In those sexual dynamics I waslike performative and what that
looks like is like experimentingwith different positions.
I'd wear things.
I probably put on a persona.
I was like confident andwhatever right, like I was doing

(42:50):
the sex.

Jacqueline Trumbull (42:51):
Yeah, right , like I was doing the sex, yeah
, but, but yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I agreed that actually
like something as vulnerable asan orgasm, it does make sense
that that can come more easilyin a trusting relationship.
Um, but also that I agree withyou that there's a there's a

(43:16):
different kind of freedom, adifferent kind of performing,
like try new things withsomebody that maybe you're never
going to see again.
I get caught in context, youknow, like if Jason and I were
going to try something new and Ican see, on the one hand, how
trust and intimacy would allowthat to happen.
New and I can see, on the onehand, how trust and intimacy
would allow that to happen, butI can also see, on another hand,
where I'm like you know me as aparticular kind of version of

(43:39):
myself and it feels strange toopen up a different kind of
version of myself like it would.
It would be incongruent.
There'd be like dissonancebetween them, and when you are
just meeting somebody, when it'scasual, new, whatever, like
they don't have any preconceivednotions of who you are.
Um, yeah, so wait.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:00):
So why do you ?
Why did you get into anysituationships if, if sex is not
valuable to you outside ofpossible commitment?

Jacqueline Trumbull (44:12):
It's not that it wasn't valuable, because
seduction was valuable to me.
Oh, okay, okay.
And if the seduction was goodenough, then the sex would be
good enough.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:22):
Okay, so you still wanted the desire.
I see, okay.

Jacqueline Trumbull (44:25):
Yeah, or I was in a situation because I
wanted commitment and I justdidn't know yet that the other
guy didn't Got it Got it.
Got, just didn't know yet thatthe other guy didn't Got it, got
it, got it, yeah.
So I mean, I do think that Ithink that both people need to
watch out in a friends withbenefits situation Like, ok,
there's, there's another paperthat was talking about like one
thing that can happen is thatthe reason somebody is willing

(44:50):
to be in a friends with benefitssituation is because there is
something incompatible aboutthem and that other person.
There is something that they donot want to carry into forever
about that other person, whichis what I said in the situations
that it worked for me.
Well, the other person mightnot know that or they might not
feel the same way, so that'scomplicated, right.

(45:13):
It's kind of like why are wedoing this?
Now, when I think about whenthis does work, polyamorous
communities seem to be able tomake this work a bit better, but
what usually is significantabout polyamorous people is that
they communicate very well, orat least that's the idea they're
supposed to.
This one paper looked at likeare people in friends with

(45:35):
benefits relationships actuallycommunicating about their
relationship?
And the theory was like maybethis is why they, maybe this is
why they work, where we findthat there's not bad outcomes
Because, since there's anexisting friendship, there's
existing trust and intimacy andtherefore they're able to talk
about their situation.
But the paper found that, no,they are not talking.

(45:56):
They're not and it's so hard forme to see how this is not a
downfall.
Like, how do two people decideto indefinitely have sex with
each other without commitment?
There's something happening ineach of them to make that happen
, and it seems like the thingsthat could be happening are one

(46:18):
I'm doing this in the hopes of afuture relationship.
Two, there is somethingessentially unattractive about
this person as a permanentpartner that I will not be
tempted, um, or like.
Three, maybe the situation issafe enough, like what I was
saying, where it was like longdistance.
It just sort of precluded youknow anything more serious on

(46:39):
both sides, that there's nochance.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:42):
Yeah, but how do you?

Jacqueline Trumbull (46:44):
clarity that that is the case on both
sides.
If you don't talk about yourrelationship, and so the the
probability of being on twodifferent pages is just so
incredibly high.
Yeah, yeah.
And then the reason that peoplewon't stay in is just because
there's like they believe thatthere are no other choices.
There's like a dearth of datingoptions, and that's not a

(47:05):
particularly good reason tostick with a relationship either
.
So I know I interrupted you, goahead.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:10):
No, it's just interesting when people go.
I've heard some guys recentlysay well, I was clear that I
don't want a relationship.
And now we're hooking up andI'm dating other people and
they're getting upset or they'recatching feelings right Like.
But I made it really clear Idon't want to date them, but we

(47:31):
keep hooking up and then there'sa question of like.
Whose fault is it, like, ifthey keep going and that other
person keeps getting hurt?
Is it the person who's gettinghurt that they just have like
realistic expectations, or is itthe person who says I don't
want a relationship but I keepengaging in the sexual
relationship, knowing that it'screating this like false hope?

(47:54):
yeah, that's such a good I don'tknow, like I don't know, the
answer to that, although I thinkwhat you're saying about the
communication is key, because ifI were to look back on times
that I've been in that situationwhere the situationships where,
like with my ex-husband, wherewe were hooking up, he was like,
no, I can't commit, I'm gonnamove back to my home after

(48:15):
college, blah, blah, blah.

Jacqueline Trumbull (48:15):
And.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:16):
I was like, okay, I'm fine with that.
And then I really wasn't.
I was like upset.
I think that I was not willingto be more honest with what I
wanted, right.
Because if it's really, I kepthaving hope of like, if we just
keep hooking up and acting likea couple, we'd like he would

(48:36):
realize that we're a coupleRight, like he'd he'd open his
eyes and be like, oh wait, allthe thing that Kid B wants is
already happening.
So I just have to admit to thereality.
But that's just so trickybecause I also know that I was
probably keeping my feelingslike bottled up until I like

(48:56):
lashed out and got upsetsometimes when I was drunk,
because I knew that if I were tosay, hey, I'm really
uncomfortable with not havingthis commitment, but continuing
this way, I would risk it, Iwould lose it.

Jacqueline Trumbull (49:08):
So I kept myself in the race by Classic
situation yeah, yeah, so I keptmyself in the race.
By classic situation, yeah yeah, I mean I, because you had an
existing friendship.
You could call it a friendswith benefits situation but
that's right, yeah, no, I thinkthat's.
I think that's such a good pointis that it's another
communication challenge and it'sit is hard to tell, because if

(49:29):
a guy says clearly what hisexpectations are, you can't then
expect him to be like no, I'mnot going to have sex with you,
even though you're saying it'sfine and you're on the same page
.
On the other hand, we should beable to have enough basic
empathy to be able to makedecisions around.

(49:49):
What we are seeing plainly withour own eyes is going on with
another person.
So if another person says it'sokay, don't worry about it,
let's keep having sex, butthey're hurting or like pain,
they're crying every time,they're drunk, they're railing
against you, whatever.
Then like, I don't know, maybethat is a time to say, look, I'm
out.
You know, this isn't, we're noton the same page's tough,

(50:12):
because whose agency?
Like?
Are you then taking away theagency of the other person?
Or are you making acompassionate decision to say
like, look, this is.
You know, this isn't what we'rein.
Um, so I don't know.
But I do think a lot of peoplewill enter into these
relationships where it's likeokay, well, if it looks like a

(50:33):
duck and it quacks like a duck.
It's a duck, but the guy's like, no, it's not a duck, because I
said I'm not looking for acommitted relationship.
So I may whine and dine you, Imay take you out, I might have
sex with you, I may reveal mydeep secrets to you I am not
your boyfriend and it's like, oh, but it's such a close, such a
close step over.
And so my rule is you know myexperience with relationships is

(50:55):
that when a guy wants arelationship, it is obvious, I
am not confused.
There's no long drawn outprocess, it's good.
Now there have been two cases inmy early, early history where
that wasn't true and, afterdragging each other through an
endless, endless situationship,there was a commitment.
One of those people was aterrible partner and the other

(51:17):
person I left for the terriblepartner.
Um, so it's like it happens.
It can happen, but you riskhaving a really bad foundation
for a relationship, one whereyou maybe went months or years
feeling undervalued andwondering what it is about you
that makes somebody want to hangout with you, want to have sex
with you, but not want to claimyou.

(51:39):
And then suddenly they do andit's kind of like, okay, well,
what shifted?
Can I trust this.
Is it going to go back?
I've spent so much timefighting for you, playing games,
trying different strategies andlike something clicked
eventually.
But how am I going to relax now?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:55):
yeah, yeah, I mean I.
I answered that question formyself because I dated my
ex-husband in college and thenthe entire time I was like what
about me is deficient, or whatdo I need to do more in order to
get the commitment that I'vealways wanted?
And I put it on me and I got soupset about it all the time,

(52:15):
low self-esteem, and then years,years later, after I've
developed and been likeconfident in myself, confident
what I'm looking for, and thenwe dated again and then still he
wasn't like meeting my hopesfor a commitment, even though we
were married, right like.
He still was like holding backon giving me something, on
showing up in a way that wasasking him for.

(52:36):
I also was like, what am Idoing?
What am I doing?
But I was able to break awayand be like, no, it's just what
he's like in a relationship,right, and it's just so.
That mystery of like oh, oneday we'll magically fall in love
and all the rom-coms and livehappily ever after it kind of

(52:58):
like broke that illusion for meyeah, if you can do that.
So does the research say thatthese are good for you or bad
for you?
Like, does the research it just?
You said that they were likelooking for the bad downsides,
but is there any downside or anykind of tips from the research,
or no?

Jacqueline Trumbull (53:18):
I read three papers and they all, they
all couldn't find negativeeffects.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:23):
So go ahead.

Jacqueline Trumbull (53:23):
Have them communicate.
Yeah but I mean, I still justfind that very hard to believe.
I think what's difficult isthat the research wasn't asking,
it wasn't very specific, youknow.
It wasn't like how long haveyou been in this relationship?
Please tell me the definitionsof your relationship Because,
look, I think you can havecasual sex sometimes with a

(53:44):
friend where you're also datingother people.
You know you're having fun,you're living your single life
and the sex with the friendisn't an expectation, it's more
like oh, sometimes we have bootycalls and then that's fine.
I think that's just sometimeshaving casual sex with somebody.

(54:04):
You know, that's very differentfrom like having somebody who
is defined as your friend withbenefits, and maybe people are
like, yeah, that's not reallyrealistic.
But I've met people who arelike, yeah, like Josh and I had
a conversation yesterday, we'regoing to be friends with
benefits and then they startsleeping with each other all the

(54:25):
time.
It's like I don't see how thatis going to succeed in the long
term and, anecdotally, it neverhas.
You know my friends who havedone this.
So I just think long term andanecdotally, it never has.
You know, my friends who havedone this, yeah, so I just think
there's a definition problem.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:37):
And I really want to hear from anyone
listening If you could send us atext and let us know if you had
successful ones, successfulsituationships or friends with
benefits.
I'm really curious.

Jacqueline Trumbull (54:48):
Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:49):
Yeah, I think in terms of thinking about tips
for loved ones, like if you'reseeing had this a lot too, or
you're seeing a friend who istrying to date someone or
hooking up with someone and theylike are in a situation ship
and they day does that mean he'sgetting closer right, like

(55:14):
watching someone pursue thatsituation ship.
What would you say would be atip for what can you, how do you
do to support them?

Jacqueline Trumbull (55:21):
uh, if you're confused, get out.
But um, look, I mean, peoplehave to go on their own journeys
.
Like we said this over and overagain with relationships.
I think you know you can helpthem see the consequences.
You know I just made a mistakewith a close friend where she
texted me.
She's like I'm spiraling.

(55:42):
You know, my boyfriend's doingthis again and I was like, yeah,
seems like he lets you down alot.
I don't really know what to sayand what I should have said was
how can I help you?
But it gets frustrating to me,you know, to see like a friend
being undervalued and nottreated well and still stay.
So I don't know.
I mean, if you have a friendwho's in a casual friends with
benefits situation and it'sworking really well, then I
would say just don't judge them,keep your opinions to yourself

(56:04):
and let them be happy.
If it seems like there'ssomething else going on, then
you know, I guess you just haveto let them go on their journey
with it, because that's howyou're really going to learn.
Lessons is to just do thethings but, maybe I don't like.
I wish that he treated youdifferently.

(56:25):
I wish you know I think thatyou're deserving of xyz.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:29):
I mean, I don't think you have to keep
your opinions to yourself tothat degree yeah, I also say now
, like if you just takeeverything you're getting from
this person for face value, likethis is what it's like to be in
a relationship with him or her.
How do you feel?

(56:50):
Like what if it were like thisforever?
That's like my therapist, likethought experiment that I say if
you know, if people are reallyhoping for a change, I'm really
hooked on a change it's likewhat, what would it look like if
you had just accepted thesituation exactly as it is?
Yeah, and not being this hopingthat'll turn into something

(57:10):
else?
Like, is this good for you?
Do you enjoy it?
Do you get something out of it?
Or is it?
Is it purely for the hope ofgetting something else?
Because you can't spend?
I mean, delay gratification isone thing, but to spend your
time and energy and exclusivityand your intimacy on something
that just for the, for some kindof possibility, like that's

(57:33):
kind of a waste of time in someways.
So it's like if you were, takethis at face value and if not,
if they're like oh no, I, youknow, this is terrible, I want
to get out of it.
It's like, well, what aboutthis is?
What about this is?
What is this doing for you,right, like for me, if I were to
be self aware enough when I wasin my 20s, chasing something

(57:57):
felt good and normal to me,right Like pursuing something
that's difficult and challengingand try to win someone's
approval and try to perform in away that helps me be seen by
that other person.
That felt normal to me and thatfelt like a normal way of
earning love.
So I had to work myself out ofthat and I could have said that

(58:19):
at that point, like you know, ifI win him, that would be, that
would feel like love.

Jacqueline Trumbull (58:26):
I think that's a really good point.
If, like my advice to likepeople thinking about this, is
if you want sex and that's it,this is a good idea, maybe
because it's with somebody youtrust and know, Now please
communicate, because you don'tknow what that other person is
thinking, what expectations are,and it seems like a big problem

(58:48):
with friends with benefits isthere's no communication.
But if what you're seeking isan attachment repair or you know
like you have an attachmentwound that you are trying to
heal through this, then this isa bad idea.
If what you are seeking isgreater closeness to a

(59:09):
particular person, I guess Iwould just ask yourself why?
And are you going to be okaywith truly never having a
commitment?
Are there risks to yourself-esteem here?
If this is somebody you aresure you don't want a commitment
with and you can define thereasons, then like, go, have fun
, you know, but it's just.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:31):
I think this takes a lot of honesty with
yourself a lot of honesty, a lotof honesty with yourself and
them, and update the honesty.
Like if you start to feelfeelings or you start to, you
know, have a shift, I think it'sokay to communicate that.
I think people get really upsetwhen that happens because it's
like, wait, but I thought beforeand now suddenly you don't like

(59:52):
and that could feel like adeception.
But I think it's a real thingthat people's feelings can
change over time, positively ornegatively, and communicating
that is important and on that,note like uh, what I hate about
these situations, too, is thatit seems like there's a weakness
to catching feelings like oh hecaught feelings, or he caught

(01:00:14):
feelings, guess he couldn't takeit.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:14):
It seems like there's a weakness to
catching feelings Like, oh hecaught feelings, or he caught
feelings, guess he couldn't takeit.
It's like can we stop seeingthat as a weakness?
You know, it's beautiful tocatch feelings for somebody else
.
It's beautiful if your bodycreates an attachment to
somebody that you're having sexwith.
That is not a bad thing.
That is really healthy, becausewhen you finally do have that
relationship, that's what youwant.

(01:00:35):
So don't see it as adefectiveness or a weakness in
you.
If you develop an attachment,that's what we're supposed to do
.
That's a great ability, and soplease don't let the other
person put you down for that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:50):
I think that's true, I think actually
you, that's a really good tip,because you did that for me when
I had my horrible datingpost-divorce where I felt
embarrassed and foolish forwanting a commitment and then he
ghosted, um, and I was like, ohI, that's weak, that's like I'm
the one who gets chased.
You know there's there's somuch value for being the one

(01:01:11):
chased.
Yeah, you were like, you know,you loved and you were open and
you pursued a commitment andwere honest about that, and
that's not something to beashamed about.
That's like on him that hedidn't rise up to that and so,
yeah, that really helped to makeme see that like loving or
caring or wanting something isnot weakness.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:32):
We see that , like loving or caring or
wanting something, is notweakness.
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's it's.
It's sad that we treat it likea weakness because it because
really what it is is it'svulnerable, that's all you know.
It sets us up for hurt.
But if we believe that gettinghurt is the definition of
weakness, then we've got aproblem, because really it's
actually the ability towithstand hurt and to choose

(01:01:55):
hurt, because you're choosing arisk, you know, and that's a
very brave thing to do.
So, yeah, I mean, I just think Iget sometimes I get a little
bit concerned about messagingaround casual sex and what it
means to be somebody who'sengaging in it and what it means
to be somebody who doesn't wantto engage in it anymore, and I,
I think it to have a successfulfriends with benefits or

(01:02:19):
situationship.
I, you don't want somethingthat's tearing down your
self-esteem and I think there'sa big risk of, especially
situationships, doing that.
Um, so I guess ask yourself,like, where you know?
So I guess ask yourself, likeyou know, what are you?
What are you going to do if itdoesn't work out?
What are you going to do ifthis guy never likes you back?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:41):
Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:41):
Is that OK?
What does it mean to you?
Yeah, what does it mean to you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:45):
Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:47):
Well, I think on that note we'll close
out and we'll see you next weekbecause we are returning to
weekly episodes.
So, little helpers, we love youand we really mean that.
We don't just want to befriends with benefits with you,
we want to be in a committedrelationship with all of our
listeners.
So if you feel the same, pleasesubscribe and give us a

(01:03:08):
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