The Cost of Anxious Attachment: When Someone's Insecurities Make You Question Your Worth

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
Today we are going to go backto attachment styles.
I know everybody lovesattachment styles.
We, of course, are a bitcritical.
We try not to be so categoricalabout this.

(00:21):
So we're going to talk, I think, less like this is who you are
if you have an attachment stylethat is anxious, and more like
how these different relationalpatterns can influence the
people you love.
And today's topic.
We're going to talk aboutanxious attachment, but not just
what it's like for the personwith anxious attachment, but
what it's like for the loved oneand some patterns that people

(00:46):
with anxious attachment havethat can cause bad feelings in
the loved ones and maybe evenself-esteem issues in the loved
ones.
So, kibbe, I'm going to kick itover to you for Kula Mind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01):
Yeah.
So if you are noticing so,we're going to talk a lot about
anxious attachment and peoplewho tend to pursue connection,
who tend to fight for it andsometimes aggressively,
sometimes, you know like, inways that are unhealthy, and
strategies, especially the onesthat we talk about.
Check out Kula MindK-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
That's our platform where webasically help you with how to

(01:33):
navigate intense emotions inrelationships.
So giving you tips on how toactually set boundaries and
regulate emotions, regulate yourpartner, support your partner
without losing yourself.
Two exciting things coming upfor that.
One is that we made a freebie,a free guide to de-escalating
emotional explosions.

(01:54):
So taking a lot of the tipsthat we talk about here and
making it a handy dandy guide.
If you have a partner or otherloved one who tends to explode
with emotion, get really intense, maybe get really angry, there
are strategies to de-escalatethat conflict.
So I'll link that in the shownotes and also announcing that
we are launching the communityon July 14th and starting a

(02:17):
course in that community calledFrom Chaos to Connection.
So it's a whole course on allthe things that we talk about
and we give really in-depth,hands-on, practical help with
these strategies and as well asa whole bunch of more resources
for you.
So, if you're interested,KulaMindcom, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom,
and I'll link it in the shownotes.

Amazing .
Okay, I'm going to be honestand say that this topic was a
little bit of a personal one forme.
Like, I had an interactionrecently with my best friend and
it just brought up some stufffor me and it made me start to

(03:00):
wonder.
Okay, I'm going to stop beingso cryptic.
Basically, as we all know, Itend to take other people's
feedback of me very seriouslyand have, through the years,
claimed certain things aboutmyself that might be a little
bit unfair, like that I'mnarcissistic.
Avoid it.

(03:20):
Um, um, a gold digger, what else?
That one is true, sort of, butthe other ones maybe not so much
.
Um, you know, like, if somebodysays I'm like emotionally
immature or something, and I'mlike, oh no, am I, instead of
basically saying like, look atall the evidence to the contrary
you're, you're okay, um, andyou do care about other people.

(03:45):
This is evidenced by all sortsof things, um.
So, basically, what happenedwas I had a conversation with my
best friend who would describeherself as having like an
anxious or avoidant or sorry, ananxious or disorganized
attachment style, and she wasfeeling insecure and this is not
an event session about her,because I think she was, like,
perfectly skillful in all sortsof ways, but she was feeling
insecure and this is not anevent session about her, because

(04:05):
I think she was like perfectlyskillful in all sorts of ways,
but she was feeling insecure andabout other things unrelated to
me, but then, I think, wrappedaround to feeling insecure about
whether I like cared about herenough or wanted to spend time
with her.
And she dug up evidence for thisand said things that I'd heard
from previous people.

(04:26):
So at first I was like, oh, myGod, I'm hearing this thing
again.
Like she said you only contactme when you want help.
And it was like, oh, you know,like it's sort of an accusation
of like you know, you neverinvite me to things, like I
don't really know if you careabout me.

(04:47):
Um, and this was an interestingcase because, you know, I'd
heard some of these thingsbefore, but in this case it was
like wildly off base fromreality in a way that I can very
clearly see, and so it was alot more clear to me that this
had very little to do with meand more to do with her.

(05:07):
But it just made me wonder,like these things I've heard
about myself, is that trulyabout me or is that a behavioral
pattern of maybe some of thepeople around me Um, and some of
it may be true of me and then Istarted thinking about our
recent episodes with like thepursuer withdraw dynamic and how
the withdrawer kind of alwayswinds up feeling like they can

(05:30):
never do anything right orthey're not good enough or
something wrong with them, andthat is a way that I have
sometimes felt in myrelationships, and so that is
the inspiration for this topicinspiration for this topic.

Yeah, it makes sense.
So I think, yeah, as we weresaying before, it's really
common for people to want tocategorize yourself in like
anxious or avoidant.
Are you an avoidant or are youan anxious?
And I really find that so muchof the internet talk about those
two different types of peoplemutually exclusive is anxious
people just want lovedesperately, and avoidant people

(06:12):
don't want love, they just areselfish.
I think that's not really fairbecause people can vary.
Right, you could be anxious insome relationships and avoidant
in others.
Right, you could be anxious insome relationships and avoidant
in others.
And it doesn't always talkabout why someone's you know
chasing or avoiding, right, likeit could be that the avoidant

(06:34):
attachment is about avoidingconflict, not necessarily love.
So I think there's a lot oflike positive stuff around
anxious attachment, but I thinkyou know talking me, talking
about my background with my momand you with you know different
interactions.
I think there are somedownsides to an anxious

(06:54):
attachment style.
So I think this was this waslike an interesting topic for us
to chew on.
I will say I will say I thinkthat you are very openly, in a
good way, like open about yournarcissistic traits and I'm
saying that because everyone hasnarcissistic traits, I
definitely do and you're verymuch like I like things that are
very flashy, I like you know,like, um, living the high life.

(07:16):
I like being wined and dined.
I, you know like, and you askfor help in really direct ways.
That might be unusual forpeople who are, like, people
pleasers, right so, and thereare times when you are so you're
less effusive than other peoplethat you know with your
emotions.
So I know that you care deeplyfor people, but it might not

(07:39):
come across in your everydaylanguage, right?
So I think, like, just as justto be like, there's a kernel of
truth to these things, and Ithink people's reactions to that
, you know, in terms of what itbrings up for them, adds on to
this pathologizing for you oflike, oh, I'm bad Right.

So I mean, this was a situation and I
know that I do those thingsthis was a situation where I
asked for help for probably thefirst time in 10 months and the
other time I'm not even sure ifI'd asked her if she had offered
, but I this is not a person Iask for help for a lot, mostly
because it's a long distancefriendship, it Um but I had like

(08:29):
watched her dog for like two,five day periods in a row, like
in between these.
So it's like this is like asituation where you know what I
mean.
So it was just, it was a reallyweird.
And then I actually followed up.
I was like I you know, I'veheard this before Like, can you
tell me why you said that?
Like, can you tell me otherexamples when I've asked you for
help?
Um, and this is where she wasreally skillful.
She was like you know, it'sprobably like my anxiety coming

(08:51):
in and like telling me aparticular story.
Um, and I know that there aresome people I've asked for help
more than others, but it's justoverall.
I feel like if somebody askedme for help, I'm there.
I try to like I don't know likegive emotional support to all

(09:11):
of my friends.
Um, and yeah, the effusivenessis an interesting kind of call.
It's like Americans are like wehave to say I love you to
everybody all the time, Um, andlike be really effusive with
that language, and I don't knowthat's an interesting one.
It's not something that's in myfamily's culture like we don't
really say I love you to eachother, and so there is this sort

(09:34):
of expectation that, um, Ithink especially like women do
that and um, I guess it can getread in a particular way that I
don't.
But I also think that there'sbeen this pattern of like there
will be the kernel of truth andthen I'll say the kernel of
truth and then the person whomaybe is anxious exploits that

(09:56):
kernel of truth, like that wasvery true in my past
relationship.
It was interesting.
I heard, you know, I heard DaxShepard.
I was listening to his podcasttoday, armchair expert, and he
said something like this is thehe's like this is a terrible,
gross thing to admit, but I likelong for the admiration of high

(10:17):
status people and I think thisis something that Dax and I have
in common is that we arewilling to say the honest, gross
thing.
And yet I'm like why is itgross?
Of course we long for theadmiration of high status people
, like we are a socialhierarchical species.
The whole idea of high statuswouldn't exist if people didn't
have ambition to be that, andbeing admired by those people is

(10:42):
part of like being accepted andthen kind of like obtaining
that status.

So I don't know, that's just sort of an
aside, I guess will projectinsecurities, right, and what
that means is that whatever webring in, like all of our

(11:08):
beliefs, like I'm not goodenough, I'm not loved, I'm not
whatever, um, these, it's kindof like wearing glasses.
Wearing these, like you know,like colored glasses, you're
going to see everything throughthat.
And for you, for, let's say,saying something like that, like
, um, I like the admiration ofhigh status people.
Well, with really extremenarcissism, that also comes with

(11:32):
um other bad stuff.
Right, like, if you only careabout high status people, then
that means sometimes, when itgoes awry, that person's going
to be like really dismissing ofanyone else who's not high
status.
Now, it's not public, it's justhealthy narcissism or healthy,
you know, being a human being,if you like the admiration of
high status people and you'rereally kind to everyone who

(11:54):
isn't Right.
So I think that when we talkabout projecting, if, if any of
your qualities, let's say likeless effusive, less like
affectionate verbally, of yourqualities, let's say like less
effusive, less like affectionateverbally, if I then project my
insecurities into that, like, ah, she's not saying over and over
again I love you, hey, honey, Ilove you, and blah, blah, blah.

(12:14):
That means she doesn't love mebecause I'm unlovable Right.
That's projecting, that'sadding the suffering on top of
your behavior, right.

Well, yeah, and I think what's
happened sometimes is that Iwill say things like I want the
admiration of high status people.
And if you are anxious andyou're worried that you, that
this other person, doesn't loveyou, then you're going to go.
Maybe it's because I'm not highstatus enough.
Like you know, you said thisthing about not about wanting
the admiration of high statuspeople.
I don't have, I don't have highstatus.
Maybe that's why you don't loveme, because you're, you're a

(12:45):
problem of some sort, um and andthen yeah, and then that
person's like, oh shit, like Iguess it's a bad thing to want
admiration from high statuspeople and I'm like, I'm a
narcissist because of it.
There's something wrong with me.

Yeah, and like that's come up in our
friendship, friendship too, Ithink, when we were getting to
know each other.
Um, I and I have a core belieflike people don't care about me.
Um, unless I'm helpful, I'museful.
They don't only kind of want touse me.
I was worried about that in ourdynamic, when you know, and I
was like, oh my god, like do youonly care about me because of
this right that's me insertingmy insecurities onto you?
um, so easy for that to be doneright, right, right, because
you're like, oh great, could beuseful, right like it, and we

(13:31):
kind of fell into that.
And then it's like, oh, but thegap, the, the, the things that
are not said, is it?
Is that the only reason why youcare about me, right?
That's the part that that myinsecurity is like was projected
onto you, um, but, yeah, well,it that that my insecurity is
like was projected onto you?

But yeah, well, it's an interesting
question of like, do we?
I mean, this was not what Imeant to talk about today, but
do we say the honest things thatother people don't say?
This is what I like about DaxShepard is he will do that all
the time, but it does, I think,because there's a low frequency
of saying those things.
Like like, saying I like peoplewho are useful to me is a true
statement of almost anybody, butit's a decontextualized

(14:18):
statement that most people don'tsay, and so it sounds
narcissistic.
But of course we like peoplewho are useful to us.
I mean, and so it soundsnarcissistic, but of course we
like people who are useful to us.
I mean, why wouldn't we Right?
I also like people who are notuseful to me.
You know, it's just so.
It's like I don't know.

There's this weird how much do you shape your
behavior to avoid, like thatkind of assumption about
yourself?
Yeah, yeah, I think that's achoice, and this is where you
know we're talking a little bitmore about identity and how
people see you at.
This is the choice right, likewe can choose to say unsavory
things and or knowing that itwill lead to rejection or social

(14:57):
like judgment or whatever.
It's up to us, whether if wewant to be totally honest about
it or like like, for example, ifI say I love it when I'm the
most accomplished person in theroom, right, like I don't say
that, like you know that aboutme.

I don't say that out loud because you
know, like people who say thatit's like no, but like, but I
think, what then then I would?

what I would hate is then for people to
assume that I devalue otherpeople because of that or I, I,
you know I have like negativethings about that, but really,
like you know, it's not reallyabout they would assume that I
enjoy being superior to others,but I think I enjoy being seen,
like you know.
So I think it's like right howif I explain all of that, then

(15:41):
it's okay.
But if I just say that I likebeing the smartest person in the
room, like I don't want theother assumptions that are come
with it, so I kind of make achoice about how I show that to
people.
So yeah no.

I mean, whatever this is, this is a bit
off topic in general.
I mean, the topic doesn't haveto be about whether Jacqueline
is indeed, um, an avoidantnarcissist or not, but like the
idea that I think we do tend topedestal anxious attachment
because it's a sympathetic, uh,it's all about, like, I just
want, like I just want love andreassurance and to be connected,

(16:18):
and I just don't know if youlove me, and so there's like a
vulnerability to it that I thinkis attractive to people and so,
like, like, you will always, um, criticize the book attached
because it's like, oh, securepeople are amazing.
Anxious people are just oh, andthen it's important that people
are like monsters, um, and Ithink that that um does a bit of

(16:44):
a disservice because it, Ithink, in a way reinforces, I
think, it.
I think the only thing it tellspeople with anxious anxiety or
anxious attachment is that theyneed to just cool it a little
bit on the reassurance seeking,because it's annoying or because

(17:04):
it'll push their avoidant,their mean avoidant, you know,
like a partner away and oh no,then you won't get love.
And I don't think it putsenough attention to the ways in
which people with anxiousattachment seek reassurance in
that are ineffective.

Right, right.
I think that then what we were,you know, to loop in, what we
were talking about is then whatwho's tasked, who's burdened
with the task of changing, likewho's wrong and needs to change
right.
Like you know, as we're likediving deep into the

(17:41):
implications of anxiousattachment, just so if people
don't know, anxious I mean theattachment theory talks about.
You know it's rooted in how dokids learn to feel safe with
this secure attachment, withthis attachment figure with our
mom or caregiver, right?
And the idea is that indistress, when there's a threat,

(18:03):
when there's fear, kidsnaturally should come like
closer to the attachment figure,the mom, right?
But they're, they're orientingthemselves to the attachment
figure based on like how do Iget safe?
How do I feel safe?
What's going to get me safe?
Going to mom or saying awayfrom mom, right?

(18:25):
So when you're talking aboutanxious attachment, it's also
called preoccupied, anxious.
Preoccupied, this is when thecaregiver and it's still bad,
right, like it's still notsecure, when the caregiver is
inconsistent or rejecting orabandoning, the kids learn oh,
in order for me to get safe, Igot to cling on to this scarce

(18:46):
resource.
I got to cling on to mommy'sskirt and never let go because I
don't know if she's going to bethere, right?
So it comes from that, thatcaregiver not being like a
predictable source of safety.
So that leads to a lot of like,as you're saying, reassurance
seeking like someone being likeare you there?

(19:08):
Are you there, mom?
Are you there?
You there, mom?
Are you there?
Boyfriend, are you there?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Reassure me, because I'm notsure that you're actually going
to be there, right?
So it comes from.
It comes from like a learninghistory that's real, that leads
to maybe a core belief of youknow, you gotta, you gotta fight
for love.
You gotta fight for the personthat you love.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumb (19:27):
Absolutely , otherwise it won't be there,
right?
I think it is a totally, Ithink it is sympathetic.
I mean, you know, and I've beenin relationships where I feel
like I have to get reassurance.
So this is not like a let'sbash people with anxious
attachment.
Um, because like A you knowit's not you might be anxiously

(19:51):
attached broadly, or inparticular relationships like
because and sometimes it isbecause other people are
legitimately making you anxious.
But I think the added element ofprojection is important to talk
about, because if it were, just, do you love me?
Do you love me?
Can you tell me that you loveme 500 times a day?
That would be annoying but itwouldn't warp the self-esteem of
your partner.
And I think that that anxiousattachment can warp the

(20:14):
self-esteem of the partner.
That's why we have thepursuer-withdrawer dynamic,
where the withdrawer winds upactually having kind of messed
up self-esteem sometimes.
And it's because I think whatcan happen all the time, or a
lot of the time, is it's notjust hey, I'm feeling insecure
right now.
Um, I know this can befrustrating to you, but I was
wondering if you could just likeassure me that you love me.

(20:35):
I think more often it's whydon't you call me Do you even
care about me?
God, you're inconsiderate.
Oh, and like, or like, hey, um,I noticed that, like in this
case it was you never invite meto things and I don't, and that.
And then I wonder if you evencare about me and like, why
don't you have told you before Iwant you to invite me things?

(20:56):
And then I was like I'veactually invited you to like six
or seven things and listed themout, and she was able to say,
oh, you're right, and I declinedall of those Right.
So it's like To be able to say,oh, you're right, and I
declined all of those Right.
So it's like there is a.
Sometimes people will seekreassurance by making an
argument that includesaccusations, because that's
what's going, that's whatruminating is Right.

(21:16):
You're like building theargument in your head.
You're chewing over like, oh,like you know, I like in this
case it was because I didn'tanswer phone and I was like, oh,
she didn't answer the phone,that's probably because she
doesn't care about me or I'mannoying her and she doesn't.
And then, yeah, like, when'sthe last time like we hung out?
Or when's the last time, youknow, she invited me to go on a

(21:40):
very specific outing with her.
You know something like that,and you kind of build this case
and then you hurl it at theother person and it's like, oh
God, like okay, I've been tryingto do all these things but
clearly it's not enough.
Am I good at relationships?
Is this a problem that I have,like, am I inconsiderate?
Am I selfish?
I don't know.
And now I'm backing away fromthe relationship because it

(22:01):
makes me feel overwhelmed orsuffocated or being, or like I'm
bad at things.
And now I really am exhibitingavoidant traits, and now it's
we're in this cycle.

Pursue, withdraw.
Yeah, I mean, I think thatyou're talking about this one
level of this anxious attachment, reassurance seeking it could
get to bigger levels and moredangerous levels.
Right Of, straight up, you knowabusive behaviors, right Like,
you know they don't talk aboutthis in the book attached.

(22:35):
But jealousy controllingbehavior, right Like, where were
you?
Like you have to tell meeverything about where you you
know who you spent you spent it.
I'm going to put locationtracking on your phone, right,
that's.
That's a form of reassuranceseeking um in ways that are like
force the other person to dothat.
So I mean, there is researchshowing that um people with

(23:00):
anxious attachment are do have alower self-esteem, I think also
avoidant as well, but lowself-esteem and it really it can
erode the quality of therelationship, right Like, if
someone is constantly.
It's like, you know, if we takethat analogy of these core
beliefs and insecurities, arethese colored glasses?

(23:21):
And you put on the color orangeand you're like that's orange,
that's orange, that everythingis orange, and the other
person's like no, just that onetraffic cone, it's just orange,
everything else is normal.
Right, Then you're fightingagainst an image, a narrative,
that is not true, that's notlike reflective of all the truth
, it might be their history thatyou know they grew up in an

(23:44):
orange house.
I don't know this analogy isgoing awry, but like you were
basing your current reactions onpast traumas or events, and
that's when the rejection canget dangerous.
It's like totally disregardingwhat's what's reality right now.

Yeah, I mean I this will be the last of
my personal examples, but whenI went on, dear Shandy, people
on like online would talk likethis, like still talk about this
, right, they're like she soundsreally difficult to be with.
Because basically, he was sayinglike he gets jealous when she
hits on other people and likeshe says that she has the right
to flirt as much as she wants,with no regard to his feelings,

(24:28):
has the right to flirt as muchas she wants, with no regard to
his feelings, and it's like whatactually happened, right, is
that I smile at people and liketo have engaged conversation.
He saw that as flirting.
He told me that I amflirtatious and that this is a
problem and that I'm hopelesslyflirtatious, right, and I
refused to change my behaviortoo much, although I did change
it a lot and then I went onlineand told people myself that I'm

(24:53):
a huge flirt and, you know, needmale attention and that you
know, and I don't know, thatthis is like a particularity I
have in relationships, and thekernel of truth was that, like
you know, I had always beenflirtatious, but that didn't
mean like discussing explicitcontent with people and I did

(25:17):
like hanging out with men, andof course I like male attention,
and so there's ability to findthe kernel of truth and then
exploit it, but really that'slike anxiety and jealousy coming
in.
But you can make me, can I mean?

what?
Even even as you'd explained itnow, it's still biased, like I
would say that he was way moreflirtatious with other people
than you were for sure at thetime.

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just yeah you were
.

You were like you know, being like friendly
with your friends, and he waslike outright flirting with
other people, so but it likethat, that that constant void
that he could never fill rightwhere he was, like it doesn't
matter if you were literallylike chained in a bedroom, like
it's still.
He still felt that I'm not, Idon't get the secure love that

(26:02):
I'm looking for and blaming youfor it.
Right, like making it aboutyour character, which is really
the mindfuck really.

Right, but right exactly.
But if you have a void and youare constantly telling your
partner that they don't love you, or you're constantly pointing
out evidence that they don'tlove you, then they are going to
start wondering if there'ssomething wrong with their
ability to love, and I thinkthat that's a huge problem.

(26:37):
Yeah, and I also think there'san answer for it.
You know, like I think ifyou're anxiously attached,
that's okay, and I also thinkyou can seek assurance.
It's going to annoy yourpartner at some point, right,
but I think that there are waysthat we can talk about of, like,
how to skillfully do this.

Yeah, I think the the problem comes when any
of us can't own our shit, likewhen we can't take
accountability.
Then what happens is that youput the full force blame on
someone else and that personthen takes that in and remember
that.
Not remember, but like that.

(27:15):
We develop as human beings.
We develop our sense of selfand identity through our
interactions with other people.
I mean, we'd love to act likewe just find our sense of self
by like taking me time andreflecting on who we want.
But so much of what we careabout what we do, how we relate
to others, is based on ourexperiences with other people,

(27:37):
and it's called like the lookingglass effect, where you say, oh
okay, my parents are actinglike I'm funny, I'm funny right,
you start to learn how yourelate to other people and your,
your role in society.
And if someone is, especially ifyou're in the phase of, like,
developing your sense of self,if someone comes in saying, why

(27:57):
don't you love me more, whydon't you act, why are you so
rejecting, you go, oh, I can'tlove, yeah, I'm not affectionate
.
And then you might fall intothat too right, like you might
end up dating more people whohave anxious attachment because
they kind of confirm that, thatsense of self, and you might act
, start acting in ways like that.

Yeah, I think it's also like we.
You know, we pay more attentionto negative feedback from
others and you're going to getmore negative feedback from
people with insecure attachmentstyles than the secure people
around you.
And so it's likely that youdiscount evidence or feedback
from securely attached friendsand family and you overemphasize
from insecure people, and sothe person with anxious

(28:42):
attachment might feel powerless,but they actually may have a
tremendous amount of power inthe relationship powerless, but
they actually may have atremendous amount of power in
the relationship.
I think another habit ofanxiously attached people is
people pleasing, and this canlook like having no boundaries.
But I think a thing happenswith people who have really poor
boundaries is that they don'tactually have poor boundaries
100% of the time.

(29:02):
They can vacillate wildlybetween having no boundaries and
then having like really rigidboundaries.
And this happens because if youdon't have boundaries and you,
for instance, constantly helpother people or constant like.
I have a patient who I'mthinking of, who you know like,

(29:23):
without giving any details,let's just say she was kind of
raised to like be completelyself-sacrificial and even if
somebody treats her like shit,she'll help them, She'll like
bend over backwards for them,but obviously, over time, this
is going to erode her andwhoever let's I won't talk about
her specifically, but like justa person with a subtype right

(29:43):
it's going to erode them andmake them feel unloved,
unlovable, taken advantage of,and then that can create a big
reaction where, like, let's say,the next time they're asked for
something suddenly it's like no, like.
I am completely like againstthis, and it can kind of swing

(30:05):
back and forth, because then ifthey're like, no, no one loves
me, then it's like fuck you, I'mnot going to help.
I'm not going to help you doanything.
But it's kind of like is it aperception that you're unloved,
or have you been unloved byparticular people, and now it
makes you fear that other peopledon't love you, and so then you
know you're going to do theopposite, and that can be very
confusing for people you'regoing to do the opposite and

(30:30):
that can be very confusing forpeople.

Yeah, I just got lost in thought about people
pleasing, how that's a wholeInstagram term now that it's
like so broad that it loses itsmeaning a little bit.
But yeah, I think it's likefocusing on the other person's
needs and just doing that, evenif it conflicts with your own.
I think also, like I'm thinkingabout, how this shapes your
identity and self-esteem.
When you brought up this topicto me, I was thinking about, you

(30:58):
know, as I've been talkingabout and processing a lot of
like how my growing up, myexperience growing up, and like
kind of the abusive environmentI grew up really affected my
self-esteem and I and likewatching how that played out in
my life.
I you know I talk about my momhas, like you know, anxious

(31:18):
attachment to the extreme Right,like she constantly has.
She just grown up feelingunloved by her, by her family or
her parents.
She felt unaccepted.
So it's just like it feels likea bottomless pit.
It's like no matter what peopledo to show her they care or
they commit to her or choose her, she always feels victimized
and not chosen and rejected.

(31:40):
So she will, you know, likeanything that feels like a
rejection.
She'll will like hammer home inlike pretty aggressive ways and
growing up, like I would justbe doing the homework or I'd
just be studying for a test, andI always knew when I would
study for a test, that's when Iwas like most scared because

(32:03):
somehow we get into a fight.
And now I'm looking back I'mlike, oh, obviously, because I
was like so consumed by studyingfor a test that I wasn't paying
attention to her.
But she would sit there staringat me, glaring at me as I'm
studying, and then she'd comeand yell at me and then she'd
say all these things, like youknow, you're just like your

(32:24):
father, you're an asshole, youknow, you don't care about me,
you're ungrateful, you don'tlove me, and I would just be so
confused.
And when you're a kid, you knowyour mom or you're, like you
know, caregiver, like what theysay to you is going to really
like affect the way you feelabout yourself.
And growing up I was like, oh,there's something wrong with the

(32:45):
way I show love.
I'm not present, I'm lost in myown head, I'm avoidant, you
know, like whatever, and it ledme to my last marriage, because
when I really peeled back why Istayed with him, even though I
knew that there were someproblems.
I was like there's somethingwrong with me, I am like absent

(33:08):
or whatever, and I don't want mykids to ever feel that.
So I'm going to pick someonewho's like overly effusive and
overly like connection, seekingRight To make up for my
deficiencies in loving.
And it only took later forpeople to be like what you know,
like people being like what Idon't't.
That's not how we experienceyou.

(33:29):
I was like wait a minute, thatinsecurity I just carried
through my entire life and itcarried through my decisions.
Um and so like.
Yeah, anxious attached peoplelike are vulnerable because they
want more love, but the messagethat they're giving you're not
giving me enough love can reallybe damaging for that person.

(33:51):
Right, it's like it's yourfault, I don't feel loved.

And you're like oh my god, that's
terrible right, so this is arandom thought, but as you were
talking it struck me that whatcan be confusing, I think,
especially with this whole likemedia portrayal of anxious
attachment being this like sweet, vulnerable thing is.
I almost think we associatelike things like BPD, for

(34:16):
instance, with anxiousattachment and then like NPD
with avoidant attachment, but Idon't know if that's appropriate
.
Like with my ex he demonstratedsome seriously narcissistic
behavior but like throughanxious attachment, like the
whole you uh, you will neverfind somebody else who loves you

(34:39):
but me, because you're aflirtatious whore was like him.

That's a direct quote.

I bet no, it's not, it's a good
summary.
Or like your mom, right Likevery, very like selfish,
narcissistic behavior, butthrough like an anxious
attachment lens.
I don't know if we're used.
I think we're used to seeingthe narcissist as like the CEO
you know, who's like, avoidantand doesn't call and kind of

(35:11):
plays with you, cat and mousewith you and then discards you
and like.
That subtype certainly exists,but anxious attachment can make
somebody extremely selfish andabusive.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's like how we perceive
where the power lies right Likeit's all insecure attachment.
Right, we talk about anxious oravoidant, like they're two
different things, but like itreally is, like all different
ways that you react to feelinglike love is not secure, it's

(35:43):
not a given and it's it's ascarce resource that you may or
may not get.
And then we all want love, likethat's just.
You know, it's like we all wantto be loved and appreciated,
and for who we are.
And like narcissists can also,they could avoid, but they could
also cling right.
Like the reassurance seeking islike a criteria that, but it's

(36:10):
reassurance for admiration fortheir qualities or achievements,
right, so it's reassuranceseeking a really particular way,
whereas like reassuranceseeking of like did you talk to
another guy, did you flirt withanother guy, is a different kind
of like needy reassuranceseeking for like some other type
of thing that's like, oh, it'sgoing to soothe my, it's a sign

(36:32):
that is a sign that I'm going tobe, that I'm loved.
If you don't talk to other men,or if I'm a CEO, like it's,
that's.
That's what soothes me, thatand makes me convince that I am
loved and I'm secure.

Yeah, I guess Right.
Yeah, I mean.
I think it can confuse peoplethough, because there can be a
perception of.
I think people can get intoabusive relationships with
narcissistic people because theyfeel they're not just love
bombed like attack, avoid, likeanxious attachment, can feel

(37:05):
like love bombing sometimesbecause it's so like I love you,
I love you.
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Oh my God, like I have to bearound you all the time, but you
can be at the losing end of thepower dynamic, while feeling
like you're at the, whilefeeling like you're the one that
has all the power.
Because if the anxiouslyattached person is saying to you
, like do you love me?

(37:25):
I don't know if you love me, Ijust need to know, please,
please.
Like don't hurt me, don'tabandon me, I just want.
But no, when you go out withyour friends, I don't like that
because it doesn't feel like youlove me.
Okay, well, no, why did youlook at that girl?
What's wrong with you?
Are you just like other guys?
Like, what the fuck Like?
Are you just going to be, likeyou know, a fuck boy like
everybody else?
Well, I guess, yeah, I mean, ofcourse you don't love me.

(37:47):
Why didn't you do the dishes?
Do you even consider?
You even care?
You can write the other personlike loses a lot of power
through that, but feels likethey're the one with all the
power, because the person withanxious attachment is like you
just need to validate myexistence right, and it's
probably our society is soindividualistic and really
prioritizes um individual, likeindividual power, right, and and

(38:12):
the idea that you are seekinglove or like.

Even growing up, I thought like if I, if I
have a crush on someone, I cannever let them know, because me
wanting someone else and wantingtheir attention is like puts me
in a position of lower powerand they have all the power.
I want them right, so right.
But like that's so sillybecause like everyone wants that

(38:39):
and there's also a lot of youknow like it just it just makes
it.
It just like pathologizes,wanting and chasing and makes it
a little bit more like you arein a position of low power, so
like we need to take care of you, right like if you want someone
and they don't love you back,we have to take care of you.

(39:01):
The person is avoiding it.
They're jerks so, but thatperson just might be terrified
that you know like they might behurt or they're in a conflict
or something, but they're likeum, just recognize how much
autonomy you are losing, um,because you feel like you have

(39:39):
to take like, care, take theother person.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbu (39:42):
Sometimes you may be in an abusive
relationship, even though youfeel like the one with the power
.
Take like, like, look at itlike a scientist.
Like, how has your behaviorchanged to accommodate the other
person?
How has your self esteemchanged?
Like, what are the things thatyou say about yourself?
Do you say about yourself thatyou are like avoidant and

(40:02):
inconsiderate and selfish and aflirt and um, you know that you
have commitment issues or orsomething like that.
Has that been true in all ofyour relationships, or just this
one?
Um, you know, do those thingsapply to your friendship?
Like, all of those things couldbe true, and that's what's so
confusing, and there might be akernel of truth in all of them.

(40:23):
So I think that the I think theother person is in a bit of a
bind.
I feel like I've got lots oftips for the person with anxious
attachment, um, but I don'thave as many for the other
person.

I mean what, like I'm going to hear more, but
for the person who is, yeah.

I mean, like I I think, first of all,
what you just said about feelinglike you're at the losing end
of a power dynamic because youwant somebody you know maybe try
to reframe that Like is it aproblem to love somebody, to
want somebody to you know foryour Is it?

(41:06):
Is it, does it really make youpowerless or a victim or weak or
submissive?
That you know you'd be reallyunhappy if you lost somebody.
Like that can be okay.
Um, trying to like soothe thatpart of you, like it's okay that
I'm anxious, it's okay that Istruggle here, it's okay that I
have these fears.
I don't have to disguise themall the time, but I do have to

(41:27):
own them and take responsibilityfor them.
And when I approach my lovedone with this, you know, maybe
like an arsenal of evidence isnot the best way to go, because
I know that my fears might skewmy perspective.
So, instead of saying you don'tdo this, or you know, you don't
tell me you love me enough, oryada, yada, it might be like,

(41:50):
hey, I'm noticing anxiety risingin me right now and this is a
thing that happens with me and Iwant to own that and respect
that.
That can be frustrating for youIf you're interested in helping

(42:15):
me with these feelings.
Like could you tell me how youfeel about me?
Or, um, could you provide mesome reassurance, right?
Or like, could we?
You know, like my friend wasreally effective here.
She was like she kind of sheowned it and she was like you
know what I think, like this ismaybe my anxiety and I think
maybe if we did these otherthings together then that would
mean a lot to me.
It's like great, we can totallydo those other things together.
And it's not that I think youhave to apologize preemptively

(42:41):
every time you bring somethingup, but the more you can have
awareness of your core beliefsand how they influence things,
the more you can understand thatthere might be a bit of a bias
or a skewed perspective and thenapproach that with curiosity.
And then you know you cancommunicate that curiosity to
the other person.
Like I'm not sure I'm right, butthese were the feelings that

(43:02):
came up in me when you went outwith your friends and didn't
call me.
You know I was worried and Ihad all these images come up in
my head and I don't want tosuggest that I don't trust you,
but trust is just hard for me ingeneral, you know, can we talk
about it?
Yeah, yeah, that's the bestbehavior.

(43:23):
You're obviously not going todo that every time.

I mean, the first step in what you're saying
, for both sides, is to validatethe emotion right.
Validate the anxiety sides isto validate the emotion right.
Validate the anxiety likenotice and validate the anxiety
when it's coming up, rightbecause it's a real.
It's a real emotion it might befrom.
I grew up in an environmentwith caregivers who weren't
secure, always there for me.
Therefore, like any sign of,like potential loss of a person

(43:48):
is going to kick that up.
So even just like noticing,like oh it's, it's up now, like
my anxious attachment'shappening.

That's genuinely a really good reason
to be anxious, you know so likethere is something to validate
there.
Like if you grow up that way,then like yeah, you're like
that's good.
You were taught to not trustthat the people stick around.
Like why wouldn't you?
I mean that this is how ourbrains develop.
They they trust that the peoplestick around.
Like why wouldn't you?
I mean that this is how ourbrains develop.
They trust patterns and sothat's something you can totally
validate.

It doesn't have to be like there's
something wrong with me forbeing anxious, Right?
I think it's like, as we'retalking about it, it might be.
I would be afraid that ittotally discounts what the other
person might be doing, Like theperson might actually be
avoiding or being likeneglectful it's like you could
own your piece of saying, notonly maybe growing I'm just
using growing up a lot.
It could be from previousrelationships, or even if

(44:37):
there's like a betrayal or someother problem in the
relationship, like I'm going tobe anxious, right, like, if
you're going to flirt with otherpeople, I'm going to be anxious
because you cheated on me,right so, but you, hey, I'm
noticing that my anxiety iscoming up around this and I'm
I'm nervous about, like, losingyou, or nervous about that you
don't feel for me.

(44:57):
The way that I'm looking for,right, about how the thing,
about what you really want,right, like, notice the emotion,
validate the anxiety and thenreally notice, like, what, what
are you really looking for?
What is that emotion drivingyou to try to get, and what?
It might not just be likereassure me that you didn't go

(45:17):
out and flirt with other people,but it's like I feel vulnerable
and lonely and disconnected andscared and I want you to be
here with me in it, right, andbecause, like, especially if you
grow up with that kind oftrauma, it's never going to go
away.
But you might just needsometimes to feel that
connection when you're feelinganxious.
And my instructor foremotionally focused therapy,

(45:44):
gave a really, really vulnerableand beautiful example and he
was like I own that, I am, I'manxiously attached, I'm the
pursuer, I'm constantly tryingto get reassurance.
And he was just like, yeah,cause I learned that, like you
know, like I'm ashamed and noone wants me and no one wants to
be with me if I'm, like youknow, weak or whatever.

(46:05):
So he gave this reallybeautiful story of it.
He, they, he and his husbandwent on a boat trip with a bunch
of friends and he like hatesopen water and he's like so
anxious about it and everyone'sjumping in, swimming into the
ocean, right, and they're like,come on, come on.
So he jumps in.
He's like, oh my God, I hatethis and he's not a good swimmer

(46:25):
, he said.
And so he was you you knowswimming around and then popped
up and realized that the tidehas taken him like far away from
everyone else and he waspanicking.
He just was like thrashing andpanicking and they basically had
to get, like the security, youknow, they had to get the rescue
theme of the boat to go and gethim and pull him up, you know,

(46:45):
and put the life vest on him,wrap him up, right.
So it was, it was, it was a bigdeal and he was so, so
embarrassed, like he just likewas, he collapsed into shame and
normally he probably would picka fight with his partner or
like he would, you know, just dosomething else about, like why,
why did you make me do that?
Right, just kind of get alittle, you know, snippy and

(47:06):
defensive about it.
But, he was like, okay, I'mgonna try to put into practice
all what I tell my patients.
And he pulled his husband asideand he said I know this sounds
crazy, but I'm just gonna askyou to do something for me.
Even when I'm like this, canyou do?
You still love me.
Oh, and important.

(47:27):
Apparently it was like abeautiful moment because of
course, the partner, his husband, like was like oh my gosh, and
like there was a lot of likelove and healing there, but it's
like I I'm feeling embarrassed,I feel vulnerable.
Will you still be here with me?
You know, to find that like thatmust have taken so much courage

(47:48):
.
Right, but like to invite yourlover, your loved one, in there
with you.
That's really like top notch,anxious attachment tips.
So what do you got what?

do?
You got Dr Trumbull.
I did appreciate you adding thedoctor in front of my name.
That was thrilling when Isigned in.
No, I think that's.
I think that's beautiful.
That speaks to someone who isvalidating their own anxiety,
right Saying to themselves I,you know, I know.

(48:26):
He said, like I'm going to asksomething kind of crazy

(48:50):
no-transcript.
Same thing when you texted mesomething similar actually
recently, I was like you know, Iwas like, yeah, it's actually
not that weird to ask somebodyto remind you of your strengths
when you're feeling weak, likejust like, I don't think it's
gross to want admiration fromhigh status people.
It's really truly not weird orcrazy to want to know that

(49:12):
you're loved, even when you, youknow, feel the most unlovable.
Um, and so being able tovalidate that in yourself as
much as you can, it just opensup the doors to like such good
connection.
Um, what I was thinking when yousaid I don't want to suggest to

(49:33):
anxious attachment to peoplewho are anxious that, like their
partner's behavior is totallyokay and they just need to suck
it up.
Um, it's true, I think likedoing some work upfront, ideally
with a therapist, to recognizea couple of things that could be
going on is really important.
So one is that, like, peoplewith anxious attachment are very

(49:53):
likely to reenact patterns thatcreated the anxious attachment
in the first place.
So and we've talked about thisa million- times in the podcast,
but you know,if you had a father who
abandoned you and you haveworked your entire life for his
recognition, you're very, verylikely to look for avoidant men

(50:14):
who you work very, very hard fortheir recognition and they
never give it.
So I would say one of the firststeps is being proactive, like
am I reenacting, am I stuck in apattern and is the best thing I
can do for myself to actuallystep out of this pattern?
Another thing would be you know, once you do step out, can you

(50:37):
help?
Can you get help defining whatyour boundaries are?
So you know the a big riskfactor for anxious attachment is
that they are so desperate forlove that and we talked about it
a few minutes ago, right thatthey, their boundaries, will get
walked all over, um, andthey'll let it happen because

(50:57):
it's better than losing somebody, but then they get really angry
and lash out or whatever thecase may be.
So if you can go in and say toyourself I am allowed to have
boundaries and I'm going to workreally hard with my therapist
to discover what thoseboundaries are and to
communicate them upfront andcontinuously so that my partner,

(51:17):
so that I know, like, here'sthe thing, right, if you are
anxious, it's probably very easyto question yourself and ask if
you're crazy.
You know, like I haven't heardfrom my partner tonight.
He's been out with his friends.
I'm feeling really anxious.
Is he cheating on me?

(51:38):
Does he still love me?
Oh my God, am I being crazy?
But if you communicate upfront,like it is crucial for me, that
if you're going to be out withyour friends, for me, that if
you're going to be out with yourfriends, you check in with me,
then when your partner violatesthat, you'll know, not that he
doesn't care about you, but thatyour boundary that has been

(52:00):
communicated clearly has beenviolated and that that is pretty
justifiable to bring up, right?
I mean, my ex told me that youknow all of our problems in our
and this is a direct quote allof our problems in our
relationship were caused by meviolating his boundaries, and
his boundaries were that I wasnot allowed to touch other men.
That was actually the pointwhen we first broke up, because

(52:21):
I was like I didn't understandthat that was your boundary.
And now that I do, I can tellyou very clearly that I will not
be able to meet.
That.
Tell you very clearly that Iwill not be able to meet that.
I like hugging people.
But if that is legitimately hisboundary, he can go find a
woman who can meet that.
And then when she touchesanother man he can say, hey, I
told you, this is my boundary,and then you're not having a

(52:42):
conversation about like who'scrazy or who's insecure or who's
whatever.
It's a conversation about likewe agreed to these things and of
course boundaries can beflexible and they can be
renegotiated, et cetera, etcetera.
But if you do agree on termsupfront, then you should not be
surprised when it's brought upwith another person.
You know it's brought up in thecourse of the relationship.

(53:04):
So that would be kind of how to, or at least initial ideas of
like how to set yourself up forsuccess within these
relationships.
But I also think it's importantto take a bird's eye view right,
like if I my advice to go tosomebody and say, hey, my
anxiety comes up sometimes andit makes it's maybe excuse my

(53:27):
perspective.
I just want to bring curiosityLike what were you, what was?
Why didn't, why didn't you textme late at night?
Like what's going on?
You know that would be a goodapproach for somebody who you
know doing its whole anxietything and not a legitimate

(53:54):
grievance or like a not.
I shouldn't say that it mightbe a legitimate grievance, but
like isn't legitimately evidencethat my partner doesn't care,
and so maybe I need to becurious about that.
I think a lot of times whenyou're really anxious, all you
see is the here and now, and thepast is completely blocked out.
So it might be like oh well, Iknow they loved me up until
today, but I don't know abouttoday anymore and that's not

(54:18):
quite.
That's not usually how loveworks, right.
Usually it kind of can persistthrough things.

So can you keep the past in mind, can you
notice, like, okay, do something, um to uh, provide safety,
right like the, the, thespecific behaviors that will, um
, like guidelines right aboutwhat to do?
Um, and I would say that youknow, if you, if you're the, the

(55:07):
, the, I don to say the avoidantperson, but the one who's being
anxious, attached on to youcould say you know, it would be
helpful to talk about theelephant in the room, the part
of the past that's making themanxious, right, like I grew up
in a home where I didn't feelloved.
Or, you know, in the past, inour relationship, when you

(55:28):
cheated on me, it's like comingup now.
Right, so, name that elephantin the room, validate the
emotion around it.
But also, when you talk aboutthat present, when you talk
about those guidelines, really,really talk through them and you
can ask okay, what, what can Ido now to?
What can I do now to reassureyou, to actually show you that I

(55:52):
love you?

and I'm here with you Right.

Because if, if someone says, well, I just
want you to never touch a guy,right Like I, I kind of believe
that, even if, like, I've seenyou change a lot with those
boundaries that were being setin your relationship and still
it didn't feel like it workedRight, like wasn't, like, oh,
thank goodness, like now I'mreassured and she's lifting my
boundaries.
So you were constantly likeviolating ones, because it was
clear that there was, like therewas a core belief, there was a

(56:21):
void and insecurity that's beingconstantly projected onto you
and there's nothing you canreally do to change that for him
.
So I think that'd be like, okay, what can I actually do to make
you feel loved and for thatperson with anxious attachment
to be honest with themselves andsay, like, like your friend did
, where it's, like, if we dothese things, if you invite me
to this, if you check in with mewhen you're out, and and then

(56:45):
see if that worked right.
Like actually, you know, do alittle postmortem.
You could be like, okay, we,actually I did, I didn't touch
any male person in the past year.
Or I did check in with you, didthat work?
Did that?
How did?
How did you feel right?
Yeah, and you know, becausesometimes when we throw out

(57:06):
these boundaries or theserequests, or like I did, I did
show you, I love you, I did allthese things.
Some of them actually might work, but some of them are just like
straw man, like what's theanalogy for that?
They're just like things thatwe think are going to help but
that actually don't.

So Right, right, yeah, I've been
having thoughts while you weretalking about that.
Now my thoughts are going away.
I think, like I guess I've gota jumble of them.
It is important, if you'regoing to ask for these things,

(57:51):
that the other person be allowedto say no, and I don't mean
that then you still have to staywith them.
But I think you have to go inwith the understanding of, like,
I'm going to ask for somethingthat this person might say no to
, and that doesn't mean thatthey're an asshole.
It might, but it doesn'tnecessarily mean that.

(58:11):
And then I have to.
The onus is on me to stay or goto say I can live with that or
not.
Because I think what a lot ofpeople will do is they'll say
here's a boundary, and thenthey'll let it get trampled on
over and over again.
Or they'll say here's aboundary and the other person
says I'm not cool with thatboundary, like when I said I'm
not cool with ending myfriendships with ex-boyfriends

(58:32):
and then I didn't, and heremained unhappy with that for
the entire length of ourrelationship.
It's like we have to be honestwith what we're willing to do,
what we're willing to give andwhat we're willing to to let go
of, um, and constantly likeholding it against the other
person that they don't want tomeet the secret boundary that

(58:55):
you have or the secret desirethat you have is not going to
work, um, and so like figuringout how to soothe yourself and
say, okay, then I got to go.
Like, if you're not willing totext me when you're out with the
guys I you know, then I got togo.

Or it doesn't have to be so final, like we
don't have to show our list ofboundaries and like do you are
you, do you agree?

Do you sign?

if not like you're out, you know, like also,
you could negotiate and be likeokay.
If you know like you want tostay friends with your exes, and
that makes me really insecureand unsure.
If you have feelings for otherpeople when you hang out with
your exes, like you know, agreeon a mutual boundary or
guideline that we're bothcomfortable with, where you, we,

(59:45):
everyone gets what they want,they as much, you know, as much
compromise as possible you getto.
You know, live your life, befriends with whoever you want,
and the other person isreassured that they, um, you

(01:00:09):
know, actually have your loveright.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:12):
And then for the other partner, I
think one thing that can happenis they will agree to things and
then they do it to pacify theother person, but they're
secretly resentful of that andit feels like they have to do a
lot of effort and if they slipeven just once, they're going to
get an earful and that's goingto just push them away.
But it never feels like enoughto end the relationship over,

(01:00:34):
and so at some point that's gotto be communicated to like hey,
I really want to make you feelreassured, but I don't want to
be under the gun for, like nevermaking a mistake day and I
forget to text, like is it goingto be World War III, or you
know, can I, can we have someslack?
And like you know, if I make amistake, can you bring it up

(01:00:55):
with me in a particular way thatdoesn't like wrinkle me right,
because I think I think that'sthe risk I think it can sound
easy to agree to.
Yes, I'll text you three timeswhen I'm out with my friends.
But then you're out with yourfriends and you're having a good
time and it slips, and thenyou're like shit, shit, shit,
shit, shit.

(01:01:16):
Now I'm anxious to go home.
Oh no, this is going to be afight.
So you know, having beinghonest with yourself like can
you actually meet these needsand can there be a plan in place
for what happens if you don't?
But you don't want to get in ablow up fight, but you also do

(01:01:36):
want your partner to feel likeloved.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:39):
Yeah, yeah.

I agree .
No notes Cool, cool, cool.
Um, if it has affected yourself-esteem, like you're dealing
with now, what do you suggest?

I don't know.
You tell me I'm working throughit right now, same, yeah, I
mean, identity is a really toughthing because it's, it's such a
collection of years and years,a lifetime of experiences, right
?
So it's like you know, um, Iwould say now, like even even

(01:02:20):
just recognizing it and namingit, it's like, oh, my
self-esteem and identity, incestof self, has been determined by
this one relationship, this onewith my mom, this one with my
first boyfriend, my ex-husband,whatever, and that person is
determined so much of who Ithink about myself, but that's

(01:02:43):
one person.
Do I really want to base mywhole sense of self around that
person, right?
Do I want to base how I feelabout myself around the way my
mom never feels loved, right?
Like, I see, I recognizelogically, like that's flawed,
right?
I see that, even despite theevidence, you know, she still

(01:03:04):
feels rejected all the time,right, so?
But you know, do I want to basemy beliefs about myself on that
?
So, even just like naming thatelephant in the room and you
know, like thinking about the,the skew, the skewed view it
gives me, um, yeah, and then,like I don't know, there's a lot

(01:03:26):
of acts, there's a lot ofacceptance of commitment,
therapy of like I, it doesn'twork for me to get like, it does
work a little bit, like whenyou give me evidence and when
some people give me evidence oflike actually I'm a good person.
Like it, it, it feels different.
It feels like, okay, at least Iknow that other people don't
think this way.
I still feel it, I still feellike I'm a worthless person, but

(01:03:47):
at least I have evidence thatother people think differently.
So I could trust that.
So I think, like you know, justnoticing how, like when it
comes up in you, and labeling itright.
Like it's my, it's my, you'rebroken.
Story, again, it's my.
You know like I'm unlovable,I'm, I'm a motionless automaton

(01:04:09):
who is a narcissist.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like whatever, whatever nameyou want to give it.
You could give it a character,you could give it whatever, and
just like know when it comes upand just be like yeah, I mean, I
was affected by someone whofelt like no one was good enough
, no one was ever going to giveenough love, like no one was

(01:04:33):
good enough, no one was evergoing to give enough love, and I
took that to heart, I reallyinternalized and it will always
be a part of me, which I hate.
But if I see it, maybe if Itake off those glasses and like,
look at that, oh, I'm wearingorange glasses.
I might not ever let go ofthose glasses because I'm born
with it.
Now, but at least I know thatI'm looking through orange
glasses and that's at leastgoing to change the way I

(01:04:54):
perceive my own perceptions.

If that makes sense.
I just I know we're like goingover time with this episode.
I thought it was going to beshort, but I do have two more
things to say.
One is, I think, a thing thatcan happen with anxious
attachment whether it's friendsor lovers or whoever is that,
because of the insistence onbeing loved and having proof
that you're loved, thoserelationships can take a lot of

(01:05:18):
work and you can get sucked inthem and they can feel like your
most important or most dominantrelationship, and then it can
be difficult to experiencefeedback from other people as
having the same weight, and soit might be hard to then take in
evidence or feedback from otherpeople because you're like,

(01:05:39):
well, you don't really know, youdon't know what I'm like, and
he's like really closerelationships.
We have a more like distantrelationship.
So, who knows, maybe the sameproblems would happen.
So I don't know some way ofworking through that.
And the other thing, as I'mworking with a couple and, um,
the one with more anxiousattachment is the one that is

(01:05:59):
also very critical, right, forall the same reasons we've
talked about, and when we gotdown to it, it's that you know,
she, she feels all the way aswe've talked about.
But also when her partner thencriticizes her or like, gives
her feedback or something likethat, she immediately is like

(01:06:20):
this relationship is unstable.
What if she their gay couple?
What if she leaves me?
What if she leaves me?
And so we we worked out like,cause, this person loves theater
, we worked out like what if wecould set a scene so kind of
like you said, with like here'sthe, here's that core belief,
like this is the scene I'm in,right, what if it's like hey, I

(01:06:42):
want to talk to you aboutsomething, but just so you know,
this is the, this is the storywhere nobody breaks up in the
end, where everybody's okay inthe end.
That's the scene we're going tobe in now.
So maybe I have something hardto tell you, but I want to
assure you from the outset, theway the story ends is nobody

(01:07:05):
breaks up, nobody gets abandoned, nobody leaves with any less
love.
And now can we have our talk,and so that's like something
that we've been working on.
So I mean, I think I thinkfiguring out how to approach
your anxious one with someassurance about like, look, you
know, I've got some difficultstuff to say and it's okay and I

(01:07:26):
love you through it andnobody's gonna, nobody's gonna,
break up at the end.
There's Um, and it's okay, andI'm, I love you through it, and
nobody's going to, nobody'sgoing to break up at the end.
There's nothing.
Nothing is threatened here.
It can sometimes be helpful.
I think the majority of mythoughts have come out of my
head at this point.
Yeah, okay, a lot of good tips.

(01:07:48):
Well, I think it's clear thatKibbe and I are anxiously
attached to our followers whenit comes to this podcast.
So if you could give us somereassurance with five-star
ratings on Spotify and Applepodcast, we would be able to
sleep tonight.

Reassurance please.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbu (01:08:05):
Otherwise you're inconsiderate bastards.
We still love you, secureattachment, so see, see how that
works.
How's that feel we'll see youin a week?
Bye.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of

(01:08:27):
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
Thank you.
All content or servicesavailable on or through this

(01:08:47):
podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational
purposes only and do notconstitute the practice of
medical or any otherprofessional judgment, advice,
diagnosis or treatment, andshould not be considered or used
as a substitute for theindependent professional
judgment, advice, diagnosis ortreatment of a duly licensed and
qualified health care provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911

(01:09:10):
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
presented or mentioned in thispodcast, and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
© transcript, emily Beynon.

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